IRC log for #maemo on 20090717

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03:56.05sarowerhello all, Good morning!
03:58.32saroweri am using this function to change the window. it can enlarge the window but can not make it smaller.
03:58.33sarowergtk_widget_set_size_request( (GtkWidget*) pluginWindow, width, height );
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05:24.47sarowerOk gys....I have solved it by using, gtk_window_resize( GTK_WINDOW(pluginWindow), width, height);
05:24.50sarowerCheers
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05:44.50Macerwtf
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05:50.25RST38h"A man found naked wandering along the Nevada border has been tased and arrested despite his claiming to be a Terminator sent from the future."
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06:41.15sarowersalara sob morche....
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06:53.30StskeepsRST38h: hah
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07:02.51chxhi. I am in grief, my Nokia N810 (almost brand new) it seems not to made it home with me. Anyone has one for sale?
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07:05.39Stskeepscheck talk.maemo.org's buy/sell forum
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07:19.42chxon another note how far is the N900
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07:20.34Stskeepsno clue
07:20.40Stskeepsfremantle beta2 is out
07:20.50Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: i fixed my charger plug! :)
07:20.52chxand...?
07:21.00Stskeepschx: means we're getting a hell lot closer :P
07:21.01chxqwerty12_N810: what irc client you have on 810?
07:21.08Stskeepsmy bet is september
07:21.11Stskeepsat nokia world
07:21.17chxStskeeps: you mean, when fremantle gets released, then the N900 gets too?
07:21.18chxoh
07:21.20chxSeptember.
07:21.20Stskeepsyeah
07:21.47chxcan i live two months w/o a tablet/
07:21.51chxbig question
07:22.13Stskeepsi lived three days without it and i hated it
07:22.21Stskeepsboring commute in the morning
07:24.57chxhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_displays_by_pixel_density the end of this list is where it gets interesting and the only devices there with a more-than-3 inch screen are the Pandora and the Nokia tablets.
07:25.20chxoh and the Fujitsu Lifebook U820 but i bet you need to sell a kidney to afford that
07:25.47Stskeepshm, smartq isn't on there
07:25.58chxwhat's that?
07:26.35Stskeepshttp://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.26366
07:26.49Stskeepsnot as hard quality as a n810 or n800 obviously, but 800x480 and same screensize
07:27.03Stskeepsvery hackable - we run Mer, and Ubuntu on it
07:27.08chxno keyboard?
07:27.18Stskeepsno keyboard, but it has a lot of juice in otg
07:27.39chxfor me, a keyboard is an absolute must
07:27.49chxthe primary usage, i must say, is IM and SSH.
07:27.50Stskeepsi'd wait for n900 then :P
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07:36.41RST38hreMoo
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07:38.09Maceri am honestly still at a loss on how opensourced products help companies
07:38.13Macerlike sun for example
07:38.24Maceropen office.. opensolaris..
07:38.30Macerwhere are they expecting ot make their profits?
07:40.47RST38hSun? They do not.
07:40.56RST38hThey are part of Oracle now
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07:41.46RST38hOpenSolaris is a last ditch effort to prevail over Linux, an unsuccessful effort for that
07:41.54Stskeepsopensolaris isn't half bad really
07:42.13RST38hSts: Won't change anything, even if it were given directly by Jesus
07:42.16chxMacer: this is easy
07:42.33chxMacer: open source (if done right) means a lot of people contribute and make that product better
07:43.10chxMacer: if you are a solution provider then you have a lot more to sell (services!) than a software.
07:43.10RST38hchx: So, how many people contribute to OpenOffice or OpenSolaris?
07:43.29chxI do not know but I know ppl translating OpenOffice
07:45.56RST38hchx: Exactly :)
07:46.21JaffaMorning, all
07:46.58JaffaMacer: IBM make a *lot* of money off their investments in Linux, Java, OpenOffice, ...
07:51.09chxyeah there is that
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07:51.22chxOTHER solution providers might contribute to your product :p
07:52.39MacerStskeeps: opensolaris is great
07:53.31Macerjaffhow? :)
07:53.31Maceri'm just curious
07:53.37MacerJaffa i meant
07:53.51Maceri don't understand how ibm makes money off openoffice
07:53.52StskeepsMacer: i have osol inside my media center now, heh - it takes care of my 3x300 raidz, and then i run ubuntu with boxee around it :P
07:54.15MacerStskeeps: lol.. i have opensolaris on my fileserver 8x1TB with areca hw raid ;)
07:54.21Macerit runs like an absolute dream
07:54.35JaffaMacer: they invest in an open source product (OpenOffice), then add proprietary layers on top and sell it; with support contracts to their clients.
07:54.38Macerfaster and better than anythi8gn i have put on it.. plus zfs ftw on large volumes
07:54.38qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: awesome! :)
07:54.44qwerty12_N810chx: /ctcp qwerty12_N810 VERSION
07:54.51MacerJaffa: ok. now that was the answer i was looking for ;)
07:55.04Macerthank you because i honestly did not understand the concept
07:55.10Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: if you ever mess up your plug, get a torx t4 and it's trivial
07:55.15Macerit just doesn't seem like that type of business model could sustain such a large company
07:55.16JaffaMacer: Other stuff, like Java & Linux, save costs and increase homogeneous enterprise environments of their customers, so they can sell more hardware; consultancy etc.
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07:55.26Jaffas/they/IBM/
07:56.01MacerJaffa: ok. i see :) thank you because i honestly did not see how opensource software was truly profitable
07:56.18Maceri mean especially when you havfe to sustain a large company. i don't know what exactly keeps sun in business
07:56.23Macerer.. or oracle now i suppose
07:56.47JaffaMacer: ...with lower costs as they don't need as many developers, consultants and support staff who know x86, PPC, ARM, z/Series, ... assembler or system specifics. More generalists on Java & Linux (even on the mainframes like z/Series) mean that IBM's costs are lower too
07:57.28StskeepsMacer: it's powered by fusion power processes
07:57.28Stskeeps:P
07:57.36chxqwerty12_N810: hm, xchat, interesting
07:57.43JaffaMacer: Oracle are very similar. By supporting and contributing to Linux, they increase the adoption of a single OS they can deploy their enterprise software to. By supporting Java (the biggest commercial reason for the Sun acquisition), they - like IBM - can save money *and* support more enterprise platforms: thus increasing sales.
07:57.54Macerso... they make a *lot* of money by cutting costs? :)
07:58.35Maceroracle seems to want to contribute to opensolaris don't they ? considering they now own sun?
07:58.45JaffaThe other big reason for Oracle buying Sun is the age old hate that Larry Ellison has of Microsoft. So, at first glance you'd expect Oracle (a middleware company) to dump OOo; however he's going to invest in it as a repeat of his mid-90s dreams of a low-cost, network-based competitor to Wintel (a la the NC)
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07:59.16Macerheh
07:59.21JaffaMacer:  IBM's evenue take iwas around $90bn a year whilst I was there. Saving a few costs can increase profits quite a lot with those kind of figures ;-)
07:59.24Macerhe might want to turn his eyes towards googleOS then
07:59.44StskeepsMacer: it's going to suffer from the usual problem: perpherials
07:59.44MacerJaffa: i i suppose you are right 100% ;)
07:59.49MacerStskeeps: doubtful
08:00.07Macerisn't it just going to be a google browser based wm with a linux kernel?
08:00.15JaffaAlthough as I said, most of the "new" money comes from people being interested in big, old mainframes again because they run standard Java & Linux, rather than proprietary old hardware. They can sell more of their services; and they can sell support contracts.
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08:00.24JaffaMacer: That's what it's said to be so far.
08:00.33Maceri don't see why adding hardware would be a problem
08:00.41Macerlinux for the most part has plenty of hardware support
08:00.47Macerand i'm sure anything that comes with the os will be supported
08:01.04Maceri think google is the only realistic competitor to ms' windows market
08:01.10Macerthey have the name ;)
08:01.30Macerapple didn't have the same kind of name or style of reputation that google has
08:01.56Macerwhich is why i think apple still has such a "small" share of the mainstream [PC] business
08:02.22StskeepsMacer: yeah, but hardware access for web applications is a nightmare
08:02.34MacerStskeeps: depending on the type of access that will be used ;)
08:02.48Maceri think everybody is over-reading into the "web based application OS"
08:02.54Macerand it will be more a local run than everybody thinks
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08:03.48Macerthey act like the os will literally run off the web.. when i am pretty sure that can not be t case. heh. not everybody has that fast of an internet connection... so they would alienate easter eu lol
08:04.13RST38hfinds it amusing that people now associate Internet with the Web
08:04.26RST38hLike http protocol is the only thing in existence
08:04.29Macerlol
08:04.47RST38hAnd they are actually trying to run EVERYTHING via http
08:05.05Macerlol
08:05.23Macerwell.. i don't think taht is really going to be th case with google OS
08:05.39Macerif they can throw some 3D compositing and their logo around all over the place it might do very well
08:05.52Macerit might do for arm based products what it did for htc with android
08:05.59RST38hMacer: Google OS is a Chrome browser running in a framebuffer on a vanilla Linux system
08:06.10MacerRST38h: so says you :) haha
08:06.14RST38hMacer: It will not be anything more than that
08:06.16Macerit's a year off and just an idea
08:06.20RST38hMacer: So say my crystal balls
08:06.23Macerit might not even be like that :)
08:06.33RST38hWe have seen screenshots of the idea though
08:06.40Macerreally?
08:06.47RST38hAnd so far it is completely in line with what my crystal balls say
08:06.51Macerhah
08:07.13Macerwhere are the screen shots?
08:07.17Maceri'd love to see them :)
08:07.25RST38ha moment
08:07.29JaffaMacer: If you want to play with what a lightweight OS that runs lots of web apps feels like, see Jolicloud OS. Lots of Prism-based containers for popular websites. Not much in the way of local code.
08:07.54JaffaGoogle Mail, with Gears for offlineyness, is a far better mail client than Modest.
08:07.57MacerJaffa: maybe i will try it if i ever get my touch book that i pre-ordered ;)
08:08.21MacerJaffa: i am sure there are quite a few web apps that work better than local ones
08:08.31Maceri sure in hell use gmail a lot more than i'd ever use outlook ;)
08:08.42Maceror the macmail crap.. or (God help me) thunderbird
08:08.44Macerheh
08:09.23Maceralthough i run my own zimbra server also and think that half of anything i'd use was replaced by zimbra. the real challenge will be a good game market and the local graphics to apppeal to users
08:09.38Macereye candy sells :) if it is fast and smooth and uses the hardware well it can easily challenge ms
08:09.39RST38hMacer: these have not yet been marked as fakes: http://digi.it.sohu.com/20050904/n240337911.shtml
08:10.09RST38hJaffa: Not difficult to be better than Modest.
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08:10.42RST38hJaffa: But apparently Tear has offline storage stuff enabled, so someone can theoretically start writing apps for it
08:10.52JaffaRST38h: Those are very very old, and probably bear no relationship to this new ChromeOS.
08:11.06Macersure wish i could read the site :)
08:11.12Macerwhat language is this?
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08:11.58MacerRST38h: honestly
08:12.01Maceri like the way it looks
08:12.08Macerit would go nice on the touch book :)
08:12.12Macerif those are real pics
08:12.12Macerhaha
08:12.18Macerok.. have to do stuff .. bbl
08:12.43Macereven if it was a web based compositing fb os with some sort of local storage runnign most things off the app or using gears..
08:12.46Macerit has the potential to be good
08:14.10Macerand i really think
08:14.20Macercan give the failing ms a run for its money
08:15.49RST38hMacer: But will you agree to surrender your ability to tinker with the system?
08:16.16RST38hBecause this thing is apparently going to be just the browser running on top of the thin OS layer
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08:37.21wazdheya maemo
08:37.54woglindehi wazd+
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08:59.58Stskeeps'lo jrocha, - good job on the HIG :)
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09:01.00RST38hheya wazd
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09:15.19wazdRST38h: heya
09:16.17wazdI just finished reading HIG btw
09:16.42Stskeepsmm?
09:17.05wazdMobile applications must be able to adapt to all these displays.  <- Fail, Clutter doesn't have tools to provide scalability (at least that's what Vlad says)
09:17.22wazdIt uses absolute coordinates only
09:17.45Stskeepsblog piece? :P either way they're getting rid of clutter
09:18.06wazdStskeeps: Oh that make sense :D
09:18.36wazdStskeeps: looks like maemo team are real fans of additional useless work :)
09:18.44Jaffawazd: And the requirement just means that Clutter-based apps have to do their own co-ord scaling based on viewport width/height
09:18.57Stskeepswazd: nah, i think it's about the bloody best idea they've had for a while to go for Qt :P
09:20.14wazdJaffa: Vlad told me that you can't adjust item size or coordinate in % in Clutter
09:20.22wazdJaffa: GTK widgets only
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09:22.53Jaffawazd: Yes, you pass absolute co-ords to Clutter, but you work out what your absolute co-ords are as a %ge of the width/height
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09:25.21lbtI missed the clutter chat URL if it was posted...
09:26.17wazdhttp://i019.radikal.ru/0907/4c/679f3fbd79f8.jpg <- maemo.org on Pre :)
09:27.08qwerty12_N810My eyes!
09:28.09wazdqwerty12_N810: well, it zooms quite nice :)
09:28.12Stskeepswazd: that's tiny..
09:28.12Stskeeps:P
09:28.51qwerty12_N810I was referring to maemo.org being on a Palm device, but now that you come to mention it... :P
09:29.45Stskeepsa Mer proof of concept on a Pre would be funny though :P
09:30.08wazdI like how browser address bar works
09:30.34wazdit shows you the title when not active, and when you click it - it shows url
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09:33.37RST38hwazd: looks tiny
09:33.59RST38hAlso, why waste perfectly good screen corners? :)
09:36.23wazdRST38h: well, all ui is rounded so it looks nice :)
09:37.04wazdlooks like I'm unable to save jpg from the webpage
09:37.28qwerty12_N810Yay, I has drag lock setting that saves in hildon-desktop
09:37.39qwerty12_N810*gets saved
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09:57.15Stskeepsandre__: i think it's sometimes hard for people to realize maemo software doesn't follow maemo hardware always.. as in, Maemo has a bug fixed, because it's fixed in 5.0, - doesn't mean your device you found it on will get that fix
09:59.10andre__yeah. i'm wondering whether to change my stock answer to make that more clear...
10:22.15Jaffaandre__: As Mer approaches 1.0, it might be worth also saying "this is a WONTFIX for Diablo, but the Fremantle fix may be picked up by Mer" (not relevant for apps' bugs tho)
10:23.59lcuk"Fixed in frem^W Mer|Harmattan"
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10:24.43Stskeepsandre__: in the future it might be "fixed in package X, version Y"
10:24.47lcukjaffa, i noticed the scaling thing with clutter myself over xmas
10:24.59Stskeepshow the heck the person gets that would be community SSU, Mer, Fremantle, or whatever :P
10:25.07Stskeeps(for open source packages)
10:25.08andre__:-)
10:27.07Stskeepsandre__: if there was more community involvement in harmattan, what are the 3 things you'd like to see changed in development method of Harmattan regarding your work as bugmaster?
10:27.38Stskeepsregarding = with your work as bugmaster as background :P
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10:29.59lcukStskeeps, im betting, internet controlled lasers at each workstation to uphold and enforce the criteria for good bug reports
10:32.42andre__Stskeeps, earlier publishing of API specs and willingness to discuss them; better documentation; more devs in maemo bugzilla commenting and reviewing patches? :-)
10:32.55andre__but lcuk's proposals sound also nice
10:33.25Stskeepsandre__: ta - i'm collecting some stuff for my summit talk so :P
10:33.39Meizirkkisent email to Michael Fray asking if he has time to document his method if compiling android against Ubuntu's libc..
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10:34.17StskeepsMeizirkki: good call
10:34.36Meizirkkis/if/of
10:35.12Meizirkkihis email was easy to find, 3rd result in google search for "Michael Fray canonical"
10:35.13Meizirkki:P
10:35.43Meizirkkii wonder if Canonical is planning to integrate parts of android in ubuntu somehow..
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10:37.40Stskeepsi still think maemo's power is that it's toolkit agnostic
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10:38.09Stskeepsif i wanted to run an android framework app, i could potentially
10:38.22lbtHmm, should andre_ add something along the lines that Mer would be in a better position to fix these bugs if more people contributed to getting Mer going?
10:38.46andre__well, i want to keep it short. people can still click the link.
10:38.54lbt:D
10:38.58javispedro"You are free to fix this bug by yourself" as a stock response should be fine too ;)
10:39.29andre__the longer the text the less it is read
10:39.30Stskeeps"This is open source, you are free to fix this bug by yourself or employ others to do so"
10:39.31lbtjavispedro: yeah - that's probably how it'd come off - and not go down too well
10:39.34Stskeeps;)
10:40.09VDVsxjust tried palm sdk, definitely maemo has the worst dev tools between the other three unix based mobile OS's :P
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10:40.26StskeepsVDVsx: yeah, but not as bad as symbian? ;)
10:40.54javispedroVDVsx, pre, android, and ?
10:41.10VDVsxStskeeps, ouch, thanks god :P
10:41.12javispedrosorry, you said "unix" :D
10:41.19JaffaVDVsx: I don't want to try the Pre's one. Brief play with iPhone, and more in depth with Android just gets me angry and frustrated with Maemo
10:41.19javispedroso that'l make #3 the iphone ?
10:41.47VDVsxjavispedro, yes :)
10:42.47javispedroso what. which is the only one which allows you to recompile a debian package "as is" and at least see it work
10:43.14javispedropriceless :D
10:43.28VDVsxJaffa, android is the more friendly so far, IMO, didn't tried the eclipse integration on the pre yet
10:43.43Stskeepsjavispedro: Mer? :P
10:44.14javispedrothis remembers me, Stskeeps, did Mer decide to follow Maemo and switch to Qt?
10:44.26lbtthey followed us
10:44.30javispedrolol
10:44.33VDVsxmer chroot is much better that the crappy SB :P
10:45.06lbtheh
10:45.19lbtI just replied to developer list...
10:45.22Stskeepsjavispedro: i'm not a gtk fan, personally. we're toolkit agnostic so qt and gtk will co-exist. but we'll probably begin to move more stuff to qt.
10:46.17amrsurely the fact you can recompile  a debian package "as is" is moot
10:46.29amryou want apps developed specifically for this os
10:46.30lbtVDVsx: just apt-get install emacs and ran gud....
10:47.03amrit's a plus if you want to be a cool nerd, but the general user doesn't give a toss
10:47.16javispedroamr: partly true
10:47.20Stskeepsamr: do you want to spend ages fitting libwhatever to scratchbox compilation?, because your mobile application would benefit from it?
10:47.23VDVsxlbt, well, is also a option, the "emacs OS" is powerful :P
10:47.32lcukVDVsx, with the palm and iphone sdk can you recompile the kernel?
10:47.46javispedrothe general user gives a toss if he can't run e.g. "curse of monkey island" for that reason
10:47.50lcukor are they for fruity apps only?
10:48.03amrStskeeps, as i don't develop for maemo i don't care
10:48.12Stskeepsamr: i agree that we want to encourage mobile factor development, but we don't need to limit people too much :P
10:48.12VDVsxlcuk, iphone is closed source, for palm you can :)
10:48.23lcukwith the palm sdk?
10:48.26amri don't really see it as limiting
10:48.42VDVsxlcuk, off course no
10:48.59VDVsxlcuk, as a app developer you have intrested in compile a kernel ?
10:49.03Stskeepsamr: as in, it's much easier when we can just pick and choose what libraries we want to depend on, and then just spend time changing our View to mobile form factor, and add in concerns for mobile usage
10:49.09lcukwell thats what the sdk is for
10:49.15lcuki understand entirely tho
10:49.24lcukas a python dev yourself, why do you need an sdk?
10:49.34lcukcant you just use favorite text editor and run without any sdk
10:49.35amrStskeeps, i guess
10:49.39javispedroStskeeps, (in reply to Mer being toolkit agnostic) nice :)
10:50.16lcuksurely favorite editor + ssh == much better  than having to setup anything serious
10:50.19javispedroI think Qt is way easier to develop for; everytime I think Gtk I think boilerplate
10:50.33Stskeepsamr: and that's what we're attempting with mer. sure, we're based on ubuntu, and sure, it's cool to be able to install emacs, - but what's most cool for me is the ability to develop a mobile application just as easily as i develop a desktop app
10:50.36lcuka couple of script files to do the grunt work and you could have a really slick OS independent devkit
10:50.40javispedrobut there's still lots of apps, even lots of lightweight toolkits (think swt) which still target Gtk
10:50.54lcukjavispedro, qt is just as much boilerplate
10:51.12lcuktho you cant as easily see what the plating is because its abstracted down 17 levels ;)
10:51.17javispedrolcuk: but machine-generated boilerplate (which btw Vala was somewhat trying to fix)
10:51.41lcukno, vala was generating the boilerplate for you lol
10:51.49VDVsxlcuk, yes, I can, but I'm not only a python dev, and I also like a full integrated system, sorry but I'm not a emacs geek :P
10:51.54lcukthats not fixing it, thats just making it a bit easier to reproduce and work with
10:52.15lcukVDVsx, then a proper sdk should allow rebuilding the full OS
10:52.24lcukwhich of all the unix os's ONLY maemo can i think ;)
10:52.29RST38hjavispedro: Any boilerplate is bad
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10:52.46lcuk*in what you said up there
10:53.00javispedroI don't think machine-generated boilerplate is bad (unless you mean this is a semantic contradiction)
10:53.06javispedrothink: compiler generators
10:53.08RST38hjavispedro: Machine generated ones are especially bad because once you change a few things there the machine can no longer regenerate them
10:53.41lcukRST38h, thats been the same since year .
10:53.52RST38hlcuk: Yes, unfortunately
10:54.00lcuknothing you can do
10:54.09RST38hActually, Microsoft solved it
10:54.13VDVsxlcuk, this isn't a argument for +90% of the app developers around, if you want more app in your system, you've to provide proper developing tools, this is one of the big problems in maemo, IMO
10:54.17JaffaIf it's boilerplate, it should be runtime only.
10:54.22RST38hSo, it is not like theres is nothing you can do
10:54.31RST38hJaffa <-- essentially correct
10:54.41JaffaIf it's machine generated source code as a lightweight, understandable starting point; that's fine.
10:54.49lcukMS havent solved boiler plate, they abstracted it and moved it into a different file
10:54.56lcukthe .not solution sucks balls
10:54.56javispedrolcuk: which I hate
10:54.56RST38hJaffa: usually never stays this way :)
10:54.59JaffaIf it's machine generated boilerplate source code to prevent the developer having to write it manually: very very bad.
10:55.05javispedrocause that means you no longer understand what your program is doing
10:55.19RST38hlcuk: They moved it to resource files which is a solution as far as I care
10:55.31RST38hlcuk: Of course, this does not mean I LIKE using Win32
10:55.35javispedrobut I like what qt's moc does
10:56.18javispedroit: allows you to forget about the whole meta object system if you like, but allows you to read about it if you want
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10:56.19lcukVDVsx, ok, so you want a lightweight IDE that can create funfilled desktop apps with lots of support
10:56.40lcukgoes back to PYTHON and the fact you technically dont need any sdk cos its already there
10:57.00lcukif you want more - with maemo you can have it - but its more complex
10:57.07StskeepsJaffa: are there any good Vala IDE targetting Gtk, with a UI designer?
10:57.16VDVsxlcuk, I don't want I can deal with the current tools, but other can't :P
10:58.14VDVsxlcuk, give a try to the android sdk and you will see what I'm talking about
10:59.10Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: ++ on applets_locked
10:59.13lcukVDVsx, i have my own sdk that i create my own funky stuff in
10:59.36VDVsxlcuk, I know :P
10:59.38JaffaStskeeps: No & Glade :-(
10:59.41qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: GConf rocks
10:59.41lcuki *KNOW* the problems with complex init, and its a major bugbear to me
11:00.12lcukjaffa, really theres no ide for vala yet?
11:00.26Jaffadoesn't think Vala's the future for Maemo anymore (with the Qt change)
11:00.28lcukcant something like codeblocks contain language defs
11:00.55Jaffalcuk: There's Valable which I hack on (Eclipse plugin). Monodevelop. ValaIDE. None of them would count as "good" (but then I'm used to JDT in Eclipse)
11:01.09*** join/#maemo svillar (n=sergio@155.99.117.91.static.mundo-r.com)
11:01.23lcukahhh
11:01.25lbtJaffa I'd love some help getting a Mer SDK with Qt and stuff working
11:01.33lcuklongs for cygnuseditor for amiga
11:01.41lbtif you have seen the light dimming for vala
11:01.51lcukthe FASTEST amiga editor in the world (had super blitting that reminds me of liqbase ;))
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11:01.54woglindeqtcreator and designer rockz
11:02.00lbtyes...
11:02.04VDVsxlcuk, as a counter point, do you remember the issues that you had with autotools/deb stuff, a proper sdk will avoid that headache ;)
11:02.14lcukwoglinde, but what if you want QT stuff thats *NOT* cross platform
11:02.15Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: i assume you're on hiatus from mer and such to concentrate on college stuff, so i'll add a task for someone to add that patch to h-d git :) (probably me)
11:02.20lcuksupponsing i wanted to put liqbase into qt
11:02.25lcukbut design using the windows editor
11:02.26woglindelcuk haeh????
11:02.53woglindecross stuff works
11:03.02woglindehas nothing to do with designer
11:03.22woglindeonly some ifdefs for windows and macos
11:03.27lcukwoglinde, liqbase does not run in windows
11:03.40qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: I would have done it but then I heard "git" :)
11:03.44lcukso if (when?) i add a wrapper and extension  classes
11:03.50lcukit will blow chunks
11:04.09lcukVDVsx, you REALLY dont want to know my truthful solution to that problem
11:04.11Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: ah, it's fairly nice actually when you start using it a bit :)
11:04.35lcuki was about a gnats whisp away from using the liqbase.net webservice to allow updates and installs and stuff
11:05.06VDVsxlcuk, see, I have a point :P
11:05.07lcuki only had a problem with actually doing it the debian way which maemo on device tools cannot actually do
11:05.15qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: I must learn how to use it then :). Maybe I'll set up a local repo full of shit... :P
11:05.18lcukno VDVsx no point
11:05.23javispedromy maemo on-device tools ARE debian
11:05.28lcukif i i had used the sdk i wouldnt have batted an eyelid
11:05.32lcuki was doing it backwards
11:05.41lcukjavispedro, yes :)
11:05.56lcukmer is kicking ass with that
11:06.13VDVsx~chase lcuk
11:06.13infobotACTION chases lcuk
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11:06.36javispedrois still using vainilla debian lenny
11:06.50javispedrowants to try using mer chroot some day ;)
11:07.11woglindelcuk ah okay
11:07.49lcuk~sickballs VDVsx
11:07.50lcuk;)
11:08.39VDVsxlcuk, infobot is old and started to forget things :P
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11:08.52javispedrojavispedro believes maemo's sdk is best cause there isn't any, and you can build the perfect one yourself
11:09.07javispedro(which is btw what I believe lcuk's trying to tell us)
11:09.46javispedrolet it be dpkg-cross, scratchbox1, sb2, on-device, whatever
11:10.10javispedroor a combination of any of these
11:11.37javispedroand then distribute it as vmware so that "the general user" can use it
11:11.47VDVsxlcuk, when you use your on-device environment, you don't have problems with the ssh connection ? mine is always going idle/dropped after a while without activity
11:14.12amrsame with me, VDVsx
11:14.15lbtjavispedro: I use vanilla lenny
11:14.59lbtjavispedro: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build
11:15.07lbtchroot in minutes...
11:15.33lbtthere's a cut'n'paste walkthrough here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/Application_Building
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11:16.27Jaffalbt: I'll add it to my ever growing queue.
11:16.28Jaffa;-)
11:16.36javispedrodidn't like OBS so far
11:17.26javispedrotries to do a lot of things. I won't say it does all of them badly, but just that I do not want it to do most of them
11:17.40javispedroalso, seems webby 2.0
11:18.30javispedrois a scratchbox1 lover
11:18.45lbtthat's a good idea... I suggest you unshift it
11:19.01sampppahello
11:19.08lbtjavispedro: examples?
11:19.20sampppahow is it possible to change background colour of HildonPannableArea?
11:19.55javispedrolbt: considering I'm going to build a debian/rpm package for a start
11:20.16lbtwell.... you are.
11:20.36lbtOBS does nothing else. Just builds packages.  ?
11:20.49javispedrothen you're thinking of it as a autobuilder replacement
11:20.56javispedronot as a sb1 replacement
11:21.00lbtah
11:21.12lbtboth
11:21.26lbtthe way it builds packages is to create a chroot in qemu
11:21.48lbtso I create a dummy package called SDK
11:22.00lbtit has a build-depends of all kinds of crap
11:22.10lbtlike aptitude and sdk-config
11:22.18javispedroso, can you bootup the qemu chroot, the manually hack around include files to debug why your package is not building
11:22.22lbtwhich installs useful stuff into the chroot
11:22.23lbtyes
11:22.41lbta 'normal' build has a 'pure' chroot
11:22.46lbtwhich is cool and elegant
11:22.48lbtand useless
11:22.56lbtyou can hack in it
11:23.07lbtbut not much else
11:23.18lbtso I created a general purpose chroot
11:23.33lbtwhich, most critically, has a network
11:23.40lbt(build chroot doesn't)
11:23.48lbtthen you can install all kinds of things
11:24.05javispedroand then you'll get something similar to sb1 ;)
11:24.11lbtyes
11:24.21lbtgosh, never thought about that ;)
11:24.49javispedroI assume it'll be sb1 "done right" cause I don't consider sb2 being "sb1 done right"
11:24.54lbtcorrect
11:25.08lbtwe install modified 586 packages into the chroot
11:25.17lbtoffset into /lib-x86
11:25.24lbtthen symlink to /
11:25.28javispedro(for a start sb2 likes to rebuild some dont-know-whats-for package list which takes half an hour before EACH dpkg-buildpackage)
11:25.46lbtso  /bin/bash -> /lib-x86/bin/bash
11:26.12lbtdpkg-buildpackage -nc  ?
11:26.45lbtmore details here :  http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/Cross_Build
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11:26.55lbtnb... I am writing this stuff as we speak
11:27.04lbtmodified glibc is compiling
11:27.14lbtI've written the cross-packager
11:27.17javispedrolbt, not the source package. I think it's related to some weird emulator configuration
11:27.22lbtand I have a cross-packaged bash
11:27.45javispedronice job lbt
11:27.48lbtjavispedro: I confess to being so caught up in Mer that I don't have maemo sdk2
11:27.56lbtdon't tell anyone at Nokia ;)
11:28.05lbtI'm running all the fremantle code in Mer
11:28.44lbtnow all I need is a cross-packaged set of i586 .so otherwise bash is u/s
11:28.47javispedroI just hope someday I can just say "sb3-conf switch_tool /usr/bin/java native" ;)
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11:30.09lbtbbiab
11:30.24lcukVDVsx, winscp has a setting to ping after n seconds or something - keep alives, been in place for many systems (my ftp stuff uses em too)
11:31.42lcuktho actually looking mine arent configured and ive never needed em
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11:32.00VDVsxlcuk, humm, have to find a similar settting/tool for linux :)
11:32.04lcukwindscp also cures connection breaks, i can be transfering a file, reboot the tablet and continue transfering
11:32.18lcukonce back up
11:33.19lcukhey sampppa \o
11:33.33lcukwhat happens if you change the background color as you would on a panel
11:33.50lcukor is that a gtk styleism itself
11:34.08lcuk(i could never even change the button background colorin my remote control)
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11:37.57sampppalcuk: i dont know but it does not change, i use rc file
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11:42.08Macermade it 8 days so far without smoking
11:42.16Macer:-)
11:46.27lcuksampppa, https://git.maemo.org/projects/hildon/gitweb?p=hildon;a=blob;f=hildon/hildon-pannable-area.c;h=21c140221b3b77f471cf27ddd0cd5843c00a5008;hb=47de2971f36db26f249d75ccfe772d230248223d#l1064
11:46.39lcuki can see 1 reference to setting the background
11:46.48lcuk(the others are scrollbars)
11:47.13lcukits only done in the realize handler/constructor?
11:48.18sampppahmm
11:48.20lcukperhaps if you force your code to do same, or mess with the style and refresh, it might work
11:49.25lcukyerga, if you are around, do you have any idea how sampppa can set the background color?
11:50.05lcukMacer, congratulations
11:50.15lcukhas a celebrationary cig for you!
11:50.20sampppa:)
11:51.03lcuksampppa, might be an idea to post some of this on ML (if yerga isnt awake lol)
11:51.53lcukwhat other GTK states are there?
11:51.55lcukie this call:
11:51.55lcukgtk_style_set_background (widget->style, widget->window, GTK_STATE_NORMAL);
11:52.17lcukwhat happens if you set the state of the pannable to something else (disabled or somethiing)
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11:52.25lcukdoes the background change as expected with other widgets?
11:52.36lcukoooh sampppa theres someone else that might know
11:53.02lcukwaves @ danielwilms and bets he craps himself and wonders what hes stumbled into ;)
11:53.07sampppa:D
11:53.17Jaffalo danielwilms
11:53.30qwerty12_N810Don't worry: he's dealt with sarower's shit...
11:53.32sampppafor example with this example: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/tutorial/examples/hildon-pannable-area-example.c how to change bg to black etc ?
11:55.34lcukdare i ask who sarower is
11:56.02qwerty12_N810search the IRC logs, you'll realise who...
11:56.18lcuki cant search the logs im on vnc
11:56.48lcukdanielwilms, inside hildonpannable, it appears as though its not listening to sampppa's instructions about changing the background color and nothing he has tried works.  any ideas about how to solve his problem :D ?
11:57.01lcukhe tried asking it nicely,
11:57.13lcukthen raised his voice, and threatened it with dunking in a river
11:57.35lcukand he even told it he would build it in the bora sdk if it didnt behave
11:57.39lcukbut to no avail :(
11:58.00qwerty12_N810s/bora sdk/on device/
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11:58.23lcuknahhh liqbase does that quite well (as long as i dont want to move out)
11:58.33lcuklets get worse: on device in a win ce .net env ;)
11:59.01sampppalol :)
11:59.24sampppamaybe im doing something wrong here, i gotta eat somehting :)
12:00.31yergagenerally the widgets follow the theme colors
12:00.39yergathe only solution is using rc files
12:01.06yergaI think there are some applications using it
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12:02.05sampppayerga: on the example i linked, i can change the bg colour of hildonstackablewindow
12:02.40sampppabut when i add that hildonpannablea area it does not change, and if i set own style for hildonpannablearea it doesnt change either
12:03.08sampppawith rc file
12:03.26yergammm weird
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12:03.44yergaare you going to use buttons in the pannable?
12:03.48yergaor a treeview?
12:03.57sampppafor example buttons
12:05.07danielwilmslcuk believe it or not but I'm fighting right now with the same thing :D
12:06.19lcukteam maemo all stars - COMBINE YOUR FORCES!
12:06.50danielwilmshaha
12:06.55javispedroake off every 'ZIG'!! For great justice.
12:07.02lcukdanielwilms, are you comin to the summit?
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12:07.36danielwilmslcuk: I guess so...most likely I will
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12:11.33danielwilmslcuk what about you?!=
12:12.15lcuki hope to be there, i have submitted a bit of a proposal
12:12.37lcukafter my overview last year went down so well, it will be good to give a 1year later update
12:12.50lcukwith all the nice stuff ive got lined up :)
12:13.20lcukhopes it all works well together
12:14.01qwerty12_N810Planning to bring yer Apple keyboard?
12:14.22lcukno
12:14.27qwerty12_N810hehe
12:14.32lcuki have my laptop nowadays ;)
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12:15.43lcukqwerty12_N810, i will have to enable adhoc again tho to do it properly ;)
12:16.25qwerty12_N810Lies, just find a power socket
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12:16.51lcuko_O and plug in a router?
12:16.54lcukthats an idea
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12:26.59GeneralAntillesOr just use whatever network is there.
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12:44.42lcukGeneralAntilles its great assuming i can use whatever network is there, but if the network isnt stable
12:45.08lcuki oculd do with some kind of always on cellular data stream to let me be untethered :)
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12:48.02Meizirkkiqwerty12_N810, pookee
12:48.15qwerty12_N810Meizirkki: pong
12:49.49Meizirkkican you help me with powerlanch? i have made a simple script to start powerlaunch, but i fail to add it in powerlaunch sources
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12:50.08Meizirkkii mean, i have tried to put @cp -f <script> ${DESTDIR}/etc/start-hildon.d/ and such in Makefile
12:50.25Meizirkkibut it doesn't appear to be there.
12:50.41Meizirkkiand if i add it to rules, it breaks at build
12:50.53qwerty12_N810Meizirkki: Where is your sources? TBH, I'd just do it from rules
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12:51.48Meizirkkihttps://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=powerlaunch&project=Maemo%3AMer%3ADevel%3AUI
12:52.14Meizirkkiit fail to build https://build.opensuse.org/package/live_build_log?arch=armv5el&package=powerlaunch&project=Maemo%3AMer%3ADevel%3AUI&repository=MerDevel_Ubuntu_9.04
12:52.19Meizirkki+s
12:52.32qwerty12_N810k, looking
12:52.40Meizirkkithanks
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12:55.27Meizirkkii think i guess what's wrong there now..
12:56.11Meizirkkiqwerty12_N810, i'll try once more, if it still fails, i'll ask for help again :)
12:56.20qwerty12_N810:)
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13:04.40qwerty12_N810_Meizirkki: Hmm, you could just add "MER_STARTUP_ITEM /etc/start-hildon.d" to debian/install and remove that mkdir & cp combo in rules
13:05.24Meizirkkiokay thanks, is the mkdir needed btw?
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13:06.02qwerty12_N810_yes, cp won't copy to a non-existing dir
13:06.28Meizirkkiso i leave mkdir in rules?
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13:06.54qwerty12_N810_No, I said remove them
13:08.26Meizirkkiqwerty12_N810_, if i use the debian/install, is the mkdir still needed in rules?
13:08.33qwerty12_N810_nope
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13:12.05Meizirkkik
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13:14.36Meizirkkithanks a lot qwerty12_N810_ :)
13:18.10RST38h"In response to rumors circulating the internet on sites such as FoxNews.com, FastCompany.com and CNET News about a "flesh eating" robot project, Cyclone Power Technologies Inc. (Pink Sheets:CYPW) and Robotic Technology Inc. (RTI) would like to set the record straight: This robot is strictly vegetarian."
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13:33.45fiferboy_lbt: ping?
13:33.52lbthi
13:34.12fiferboy_Hi.  In finger scroll vel is the current velocity and vel1 is the previous, correct?
13:36.03lbtIIRC
13:36.28lbtI think that was to work around a perceived bug
13:36.43lbtwhen I got multiple events with no delta
13:36.53lbtor something
13:37.03fiferboy_http://pastebin.com/m2545ec27
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13:37.44fiferboy_I think the issue is when last_event_time is 0 (so vel and vel1 are 0) and another event doesn't come in.
13:38.05fiferboy_There is no velocity, so no kinetic scrolling, even though there was motion to set off a manual scroll
13:38.34lbtmmm
13:38.45fiferboy_This only happens the first time, when last_event_time is still 0, which is why I thought it was a focus problem
13:38.50lbtIf there is a manual scroll then it sets vel
13:39.05lbtbut if there are only 2 events then vel1 = 0
13:39.12lbtagain, IIRC
13:39.38fiferboy_So, if the first scroll is a really fast short one, vel is 0
13:39.57fiferboy_If the first scroll is long enough, vel gets set fine and everything is good
13:40.06lbtpossibly
13:40.18lbtlet me kick glibc and then load the code
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13:40.48fiferboyOk
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13:52.57VDVsxnokia start selling symbian 'pieces':  http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1329543
13:53.37lbtfiferboy: http://pastebin.com/m2545ec27
13:53.43lbtI think
13:54.23lbtneed to check if last is set
13:54.43fiferboyLast initialized to (0,0)
13:54.51fiferboyI don't see any change in that pastebin, BTW
13:56.10lbtoops http://pastebin.com/d6f57634f
13:56.30lbtlast should be set to start way back in
13:56.46lbtif (scrollState == NotScrolling) {
13:57.11lbtline 1549 : last = start; // record the last point touched for vel calc
13:57.45lbtsets last to be the initial touch point
13:57.47JaffaVDVsx: Interesting. What was the source for that meme about Maemo being for high-end mobile devices?
13:57.47fiferboylbt: I tried that modification already and had the same issue (at least I think it was that mod, I'll try it again)
13:59.30GAN800Jaffa, some Nokia VP in the AP a few months ago.
13:59.38VDVsxJaffa, I think that was quoted from a speech of one of the nokia's VP's, don't really remeber but I also read that
13:59.45GAN800A comment about Linux becoming an option in the high-end phones.
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14:00.23JaffaAh yes, I vaguely remember.
14:00.53Jaffawonders how Engadget will react to Rover; given the anti-Maemo stance of their last article (on the Chinese device)
14:01.09fiferboylbt: Strange, I don't have that last = start line.  In qabstractscrollarea.cpp?
14:01.18lbt:D
14:01.24lbtthat's where it *should* go
14:01.24VDVsxJaffa, engadget is anti-nokia :P
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14:01.42lbtline 1549 :  + last = start; // record the last point touched for vel calc
14:02.18lbthttp://pastebin.com/d75b84535
14:02.23JaffaVDVsx: I'm noticing a great variation in tone depending on the author. Although I don't discount institutional bias (although, for consumers the Maemo devices have been fairly lacking for a while ;-))
14:02.31fiferboyAh!
14:02.34lbtI'm not keen on vel/vel1 either
14:02.42fiferboylbt: I'm currently compiling this: http://pastebin.com/m50f34db5
14:02.45lbtI'd like to try without having both
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14:02.50fiferboyIt should be the same thing, just a little messier
14:03.39VDVsxJaffa, e.g, catch the dif's :) : http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/07/16/nokia-cuts-market-share-targets-as-q2-profits-plummet/  and http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_q2_financial_report_is_out_shows_improvement_over_q1-news-1023.php
14:04.04VDVsxsame numbers dif interpertations :)
14:04.21lbtyep
14:04.31timeless_mbppuzzles
14:04.37timeless_mbppeople are actually fixing bugs in bugs.maemo.org
14:04.41timeless_mbpdid anyone else notice that? :)
14:04.46Stskeepsscares me too
14:04.57Jaffatimeless_mbp: URL or it isn't happening
14:05.08lbtmgrs on holiday?
14:05.16JaffaPresumably you're surprised cos they're in Maemo Devices' products (rather than Mer, etc)
14:05.25lcuk"fixed in fre ^W harma ^W Diablo??" :D
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14:06.57timeless_mbphttps://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&resolution=FIXED&chfieldto=Now&field0-0-0=resolution&type0-0-0=changedafter&value0-0-0=7%2F15%2F2009
14:07.16timeless_mbpf you sort by bugid, it's the last bunch or so
14:07.19Jaffatimeless_mbp: Now you're just showing off your bugzilla-fu ;-p
14:07.35timeless_mbphttps://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/mozilla.html
14:07.42timeless_mbphas "shorten bug query"
14:07.50timeless_mbpwhich is something everyone needs
14:07.51lcuktimeless_mbp, if you are in the same building as danielwilms and you see him, tip your hat and wish him a pleasant weekend from me :)
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14:08.04timeless_mbplcuk: hrm, i'd have to vpn in, and it's 5pm
14:08.07timeless_mbpi'd rather go home
14:08.15lcukyeah he just left lol
14:08.25JaffaOooh, PyMaemo bugs being fixed. I have high hopes for   #4782
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14:09.24timeless_mbpJaffa: anyway, does the query make sense/
14:09.42Jaffatimeless_mbp: yup
14:09.53timeless_mbpfor people too lazy to click "edit this query", https://bugs.maemo.org/query.cgi?query_format=advanced&resolution=FIXED&chfieldto=Now&field0-0-0=resolution&type0-0-0=changedafter&value0-0-0=7%2F15%2F2009
14:10.18timeless_mbpand for people who want to know a bit more about queries: https://bugs.maemo.org/query.cgi?help=1&format=advanced
14:10.30timeless_mbp(that's for people too lazy to click "Give me some help")
14:11.33timeless_mbpfor people curious about why i'm filing bugs in BlueZ,....
14:11.36timeless_mbpit's mostly because i can
14:11.55timeless_mbpthey seemed open to bug filing and willing to fix them :)
14:12.16Stskeepsit's a shame that's not a big thing in open source projects to be like that
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14:14.57timeless_mbpanyway
14:15.04timeless_mbpif someone can figure out which other projects are open to bugs
14:15.09timeless_mbpi'll gladly file a handful
14:15.12timeless_mbpit's trivial for me
14:15.36timeless_mbpi only have to start my vpn, which is just a minute of pain
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14:24.22fiferboylbt: I had to set vel1 = vel in the if(last_ev_time) statement, because the MouseMove event in ManualScroll needs vel1 to be non-zero
14:24.46fiferboyIt is now working for the specific case I found, and it doesn't seem to break scrolling in any other case
14:26.17VDVsxJaffa, I remembered something about our previous talk topic, and here's the article: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssITServicesConsulting/idUSL251396920081202
14:27.03JaffaVDVsx: ta muchly
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14:28.54lbtfiferboy: OK
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14:29.17fiferboylbt: Scratch that, I have broken overshoot stabilise at some point...
14:30.34VDVsxfor smokers: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/07/17/cigarette-lighter-phone-could-light-up-your-death-sticks-life/ :P
14:31.07GAN800I'd hate to see that go off in somebody's pocket.
14:31.18GAN800Or think of the viruses.
14:31.43qwerty12_N810I'd like to see someone trying to take that onto a plane
14:32.06GAN800It would make a pretty kickin' IR flashlight, though.
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14:32.50VDVsxqwerty12_N810, should pass in the infra-red machines without problems, I guess :)
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14:37.10lcukVDVsx, i would rather see cellphones and mobile devices powered by lighter gas :)
14:37.25lcuksame reful port as lighters, top it up and use it
14:38.18VDVsx;)
14:38.43lcukhell, they even have the distribution network setup :)
14:39.44GAN800lcuk, we need to get you some patches. :P
14:40.03GAN800is baffled at Michael Jackson's excessive popularity overseas.
14:40.53lcukits not excessive, he was billed as king of pop and lived up to it for many people
14:42.41GAN800lcuk, sure, but he doesn't have anywhere near the popularity in the US.
14:43.02lbthe's black. The US is racist
14:43.19lbtmost of the ROW don't care
14:43.55lcuklbt, not fair, i would expect an awful lot of americans are also not racist
14:44.38GAN800lbt, bullshit.
14:47.42GAN800How much time have either of you spent over here? :)
14:49.32fiferboyGAN800: Be honest, do you think your country would vote for a black man as president?
14:50.19slonopotamushehe
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14:51.37JaffaCrazy talk
14:51.58milhousebut "pop" music is for kids... most people I know listen to every thing but "pop", so it is excessive...
14:52.41Jaffamilhouse: But most people who don't listen to pop now would've been kids into Michael Jackson in the 80s
14:52.44milhouseGAN: I've seen Borat... :)
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14:53.11milhouseJaffa: I listened to him when I was a kid, I liked Off the Wall, but I still think the wall-to-wall coverage is excessive
14:53.36milhouseThe excessive coverage of dead celebs is a now a very worrying trend in the media :(
14:53.52JaffaTrue
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14:56.23GAN800milhouse, :rolleyes:
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14:57.17GAN800milhouse, there are horribly racist people in every country on the planet.
14:57.28GAN800That doesn't mean that every country is racist.
14:57.31milhousesadly - and they come in all shades too
14:57.44milhouseGAN: I never said it was
14:57.48GAN800Exactly.
14:58.06GAN800There were a couple of them at MJ's funeral, in fact. :)
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14:58.40milhouses/it was/they were/
15:01.55timeless_mbpandre__: why the cc's?
15:02.47andre__timeless_mbp, because i might want to set a proper TM later on when I know from which kernel revision a nokia software product is shipped
15:02.52GAN800milhouse, unfortunately lbt's assertion seems to be that the US is the only country in the world with racism.
15:02.52GAN800Which is clearly bs.
15:02.59timeless_mbpandre__: oh
15:03.42GAN800I've talked to a lot of European tourists, many of them are quite racist. Does that mean all countries in Europe are racist?
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15:04.38timeless_mbpyes!
15:05.32milhouseThose French - all bastards
15:05.41milhouse;-)
15:06.26pabloI installed libqtanimation-dev , but when I created one example using QtAbstractAnimation , qmake dont find the packages... Solution!?!?
15:08.33lbtheh... excellent troll - sorry - but I would have discussed it if the phone hadn't rung
15:11.00milhouseJaffa (and anyone else): If you're interested by the recent media obsession with dead celebs, Charlie Brooker covers it quite well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QN_hd9LeSs
15:12.35GAN800If anything, MJ really broke down a lot of the racial barriers since he was a so non-threatening.
15:12.53milhouseBasically, he says (and I agree with) popular opinion is now more news worthy than... er... real news.
15:13.57milhouseGAN: I never found Stevie Wonder particularly threatening either.
15:13.59GAN800Helloooo, 1984
15:14.20GAN800milhouse, you're probably not a racist.
15:14.55milhouseI like to think I'm not
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15:29.29GAN800The world will probably be a happier place when Nokia finally releases that goddamn tablet.
15:31.21milhouseAnother Charlie Brooker classic commentary on media coverage, with perhaps more relevance to the US... skip to 5:55 then listen to the forensic psychiatrist who is sadly spot on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8IdK-T1Ew
15:32.53milhouseGAN: Their shareholders will no doubt agree after the recent financial results.
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15:34.47JaffaGAN800: s/tablet/device/
15:36.26GAN800Jaffa, thingamabob.
15:36.38GAN800Or, quite possibly, 'piece of shit'.
15:37.41qwerty12_N810"Bong". Clutter is there to give you nice psychedelic effects
15:37.53StskeepsNokia Bong. ;>
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16:00.27GAN800infobot, don't be a brownnoser.
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16:24.32lbtgit is ridiculously cool
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16:26.56Jaffalbt: I think I prefer bzr - simpler for my svn-addled mind to understand
16:27.29lbtit's the easy branching that is so useful
16:28.00lbtalthough I have to admit that visualising it with gitk was essential to get a handle on it
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16:28.22lbtnow I'm supporting feature branches on an upstream svn project
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16:33.48fiferboylbt: I can say enough good things about git now that I know it
16:34.38lbtfiferboy: it's like zombies and vampires... shuffle after Jaffa and infect him ;)
16:35.02lbtI'm going to kick the living crap out of glibc
16:35.12lbtagain
16:35.14fiferboylbt: For OSB?
16:35.16JaffaI've done bits with it, and selected it (and codebasehq.com) as a VCS for a new project; but I'm not sure I "get" it completely.
16:35.27lbtfiferboy: yes
16:35.48lbtJaffa: total immersion for a couple of days in a real-world environment
16:35.50fiferboyJaffa: Once you start using it more than a bit, it becomes REALLY useful
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16:36.16lbtfiferboy: have you played with gitk ?
16:36.18fiferboyIt took me a lot longer than I thought it would to grasp the concepts, but once I started working with it it all started to fall into place
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16:36.49fiferboylbt: I have used it to visualize a merge or so, but I'm sure I haven't used it to its fullest
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16:37.22fiferboyWhat do you use gitk for?
16:37.28lbtI just used it to transplant a load of commits + branches from one repo to another
16:37.42lbtyou've seen my gitorious page?
16:38.04fiferboylbt: I thought it was only for investigating, you can perform functions with it?
16:38.12lbtoh yes
16:38.12fiferboylbt: Which one? ;)
16:38.19lbthttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/UsingGitorious
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16:39.06lbtright click on a commit and cherry pick, diff -> selected, create branch
16:39.21lbtcheckout branches... all sorts
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16:45.15fiferboylbt: Have you tried any other repository browsers?
16:45.20lbtno
16:45.24murraycYikes. DikiKey don't seem able to deliver BeagleBoards: "Production for this board has currently been disrupted and we have not
16:45.24murrayc<PROTECTED>
16:45.24murrayc<PROTECTED>
16:45.24murrayc<PROTECTED>
16:45.24murrayc<PROTECTED>
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16:45.57Stskeepshmm, that sounds weird
16:46.09florianmurrayc: Try EBV, they build their own ones.
16:46.11murraycI'm asking them for vague details.
16:46.43xnt14hmmm
16:46.44murraycflorian: Yeah, if necessary. I just wanted something common and standard. Even the same models of boards from the same vendor can be different enough from each other
16:46.50xnt14~seen b-man16
16:46.51infobotb-man16 <n=b-man16@cpe-98-30-195-117.woh.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 13h 39m 56s ago, saying: 'i'm shure you can find one for under $200 ;)'.
16:46.56xnt14lol
16:46.57lbtfiferboy: I don't like the gitgui thing though... dunno why
16:47.58Stskeepsmurrayc: it's explained in http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/06c35e38345e8996# i think
16:49.14murraycStskeeps: Oh, thanks. That's reassuring.
16:49.42lbtStskeeps: either you browse the entire internet everyday or you have damned good google-fu... which is it?
16:50.32murraycIt's nice that they have so many orders.
16:50.42GAN800murrayc, jkridner is the contact for TI/Beagle on Freenode.
16:50.49Stskeepslbt: i have damned good google fu when i put my mind to it :P
16:52.06fiferboylbt: It is my "Infinite Oscillations" commit that breaks overshoot, I'm fixing it
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17:08.10RST38hmoos
17:10.35lcukhiya rst
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17:23.14VDVsxShadowJK, just in case you haven't seen it yet, here are the Surge specs: http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/6790_Surge :)
17:26.19RST38hcan almost bet ShadowJK is salivating over Surge
17:26.41ShadowJKhm
17:26.50ShadowJKnot particulary
17:27.09RST38hShadow: It looks like the best E70 replacement so far
17:27.59lcuk2VDVsx, it LOOKS good, but resolution is somewhere between the stone and iron age
17:28.07ShadowJKWell it looks like a E75 sans numerical keypad...
17:28.20ShadowJKor 5730
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17:28.26adeusyeah interesting resolution
17:28.37ShadowJKE70 has higher res
17:28.43GeneralAntilles320x240?
17:29.01GeneralAntillesSymbian 3.2 needs some phones with non-shit resolutions.
17:29.20VDVsxnot a word about the processor unit, but should be a normal arm11
17:30.56RST38hShadowJK: It looks less flimsy and has better keys though
17:31.10RST38hGeneral: No luck there, thanks to goddamn WinCE
17:31.31chxinteresting phone, that Surge!
17:31.32RST38hGeneral: It was WinCE and its lack of support for other screen sizes that determined the 320x240 standard
17:31.45chxdoes Skype run on S60?
17:31.49RST38hNo
17:31.53RST38hNot directly anyway
17:31.56GeneralAntillesI'm sorry, but trying to do anything useful besides taking calls on QVGA is hilarious.
17:32.01chxoh my :(
17:32.09RST38hSIP runs though, so no big deal
17:32.14ShadowJKthere is a S60 skype version, but it's not publicly available
17:32.16RST38hGeneral: I know :(
17:32.38ShadowJKand it's retarded liek the iphone  version
17:32.40RST38hgot invite to Google Voice but could not register :)
17:32.48chxhttp://jobs.skype.com/2009/04/cc_developer_on_symbian_platfo.html
17:33.24RST38hHave to retry from work through a Santa Clara proxy =)
17:33.24chxthe N810 at least has Skype.
17:33.41chxbut the poor thing, so slow a CPU.
17:33.45ShadowJKE75 and 5730 aren't flimsy at all
17:33.59RST38hchx: Skype complained once that they just can't figure out how to port it to Symbian :)
17:34.22GeneralAntillesThat's why you should use a service with open protocols.
17:34.41RST38huses a calling card and a normal landline phone :)
17:34.46RST38hOpen protocols!
17:34.52chxthats really nice and could you please convince the world to use open protocols, too?
17:34.56GeneralAntillesI'd hate to pay for phone services that only worked with phones from that company.
17:35.06GeneralAntilleschx, Gizmo.
17:35.16GeneralAntilleshttp://sipphone.com
17:35.18chxgizmo
17:35.20chxoh well
17:35.29RST38hchx: I have better idea, let us just kill all humans, should we?
17:35.30GeneralAntillesNobody I know uses Skype.
17:35.31chxi am an open source developer so yeah open source.
17:35.37chxgood for you
17:35.42chxeveyrone i know does and then some
17:35.50RST38hGeneral: You are unusual in this sense
17:36.04GeneralAntillesRST38h, no, not really.
17:36.12derfNobody I know uses Skype.
17:36.12ShadowJKRST38h, oh, surge has the bigger battery, that's nice
17:36.14GeneralAntillesMost normal people don't use VoIP services.
17:36.16chxI find it *hilarious* when I say "i need skype" the answer is "no you dont"
17:36.25chxI do not use VoIP either
17:36.27chxit's an IM app
17:36.33chxthat's about it.
17:36.36GeneralAntillesAlrighty-then.
17:36.40ShadowJKfring does skype on S60 anyway..
17:36.58Stskeepshas good benefit of skype when abroad or fiancee abroad
17:37.02chxdoes it?
17:37.12ShadowJKyes
17:37.15chxoh.
17:37.21lcuk2skype kicks ass
17:37.23chxhow come?
17:37.31ShadowJKwhat do you mean how come?
17:37.33chxthey reverse engineered Skype?
17:37.42lcuk2i was more than a little miffed to discover that on n810 it wasnt usable in video mode
17:37.56GeneralAntilleslcuk2, Skype sucks. I'd rather use something I can actually use on several platforms.
17:38.05lcuk2yeah windows, linux
17:38.08lcuk2is there a mac client?
17:38.15RST38hShadowJK: Using Fring is like pulling your fingernails
17:38.18GeneralAntilleslcuk2, sipphone.com
17:38.23lcuk2i didnt ask that
17:38.25GeneralAntillesWorks with any SIP client.
17:38.32lcuk2is therea skype client for mac
17:38.40GeneralAntillesNo need to wait for Skype to support your platform.
17:38.41*** join/#maemo christefano (n=christef@c-71-232-116-128.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
17:38.41chxyeah there is
17:38.42ShadowJKRST38h, yeah, so the experience is identical to skype.. that's what you wanted, right.
17:38.48chxGeneralAntilles: try to understand this
17:38.50lcuk2so skype works multiplatform
17:38.55GeneralAntilleschx, not talking to you.
17:38.57RST38hShadowJK: My Skype experience has been pretty flawless
17:38.58lcuk2and FRIENDS and family know what it means
17:39.08chxGeneralAntilles: I need Skype as an IM/chat platform because everyone uses it. SIP is not IM.
17:39.10RST38hShadowJK: I still dislike it but for purely physical reasons
17:39.15GeneralAntilleschx, Jabber.
17:39.16lcuk2"you got skype" results in a number usually
17:39.21chxLOL
17:39.21GeneralAntillesBut, really, don't be so self-centered.
17:39.25lcuk2"you got sipphone account"   would get me blank looks
17:39.47GeneralAntillesUsually when I intend to direct things at specific people, I append their name to the front.
17:39.52GeneralAntilleslcuk2, Gizmo.
17:39.56RST38hShadowJK: 10 non-English speakers trying to speak English in a room in front of a laptop, with their audio packets getting dropped makes for a very bad experience
17:39.58lcuk2same problem
17:40.07lcuk2"skype" has broken beyond the pc
17:40.08ShadowJKI think the best thing about SIP is that it works with anything. So, I can just get a normal-looking tablephone that does SIP, and replace the normal phone with that, while keeping the old telephone number and everything. No need for the user to learn any new computer software :-)
17:40.20RST38hShadowJK: In theory, yes
17:40.25ShadowJKRST38h, in practice too
17:40.26RST38hShadowJK: In practice you are wrong though
17:40.28lcuk2people can pay for skype service - hence helping its legitmetness
17:40.41RST38hShadowJK: SIP "flawless" work depends on many things
17:40.53chxSo what is the difference betwen 6790 and 5730?
17:40.58ShadowJKRST38h, I did it in practice for my parents. There wasn't even any setup required, just plugged it into ethernet and the phone automatically retrieved correct settings :-)
17:41.05RST38hShadowJK: Your client should be compatible. There should not be any weird NATs between your device and the world.
17:41.05ShadowJKchx, there's a compare device section
17:41.14RST38hShadowJK: The connection should not drop packets.
17:41.14lcuk2chx 1060
17:41.15chxShadowJK: where
17:41.37RST38hShadowJK: There is a lot of potential problems in SIP
17:42.14RST38hShadowJK: Just because you got lucky does not mean it always works. Skype, on the other hand, does always work, if you have got two Skype clients :)
17:42.15chxhttp://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone2=2743&idPhone1=2869
17:42.50ShadowJKRST38h, it works flawlessy over double-nat and a wireless link that shows 20% icmp packetloss when downloading, and there's no drop in voice quality when downloading either. I was very skeptical at first, but practice proved me wrong :-)
17:42.56chxthe surge is smaller but has a similar screen and has a beast for a battery?
17:43.05RST38hShadowJK: Well, does not work for me.
17:43.05ShadowJKAmusingly, skype works far worse on the exact same connection
17:43.44RST38hShadowJK: I have eventually got the outgoing calls to work but then dropped the idea of using SIP after it dropped too many packets over my WiFi connection
17:43.52GeneralAntilleslcuk2, by the way, I'm repurposing the web site design since you don't want it.
17:44.09*** join/#maemo alex-weej (n=alex@cpc1-darl3-0-0-cust663.midd.cable.ntl.com)
17:44.16ShadowJKRST38h, it even worked perfectly over wifi between my E70's notoriously weak wifi :-)
17:44.17*** join/#maemo herzi (n=herzi@port-11230.pppoe.wtnet.de)
17:44.26RST38hShadowJK: Relatively simple setup too: E70 -> DI-624 (NAT there) -> provider (another NAT) -> sipnet.ru
17:44.37lcuk2GeneralAntilles, dont ever assume i dont want :) i have a long leash, i am still thankful for what has been started there
17:44.40lcuk2and it will be used :P
17:45.16lcuk2i made this work just last week:   http://liqbase.net/liq.20081031_033416.gary.scr.png
17:45.27lcuk2multiselecting graffiti wall - look at the dates on there
17:45.32ShadowJKchx: http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/deviceComparison.xhtml?dev=[6790_Surge,5730_XpressMusic]
17:45.33lcuk2i have been sidetracked with things
17:45.38RST38hOh! Icons!
17:45.56lcuk2RST38h, ? on mine
17:45.59lcuk2i had them for ages
17:46.09lcuk2i allowed classic liqbase to use any sketch as an icon ;)
17:46.15lcuk2that is old news :P
17:46.19RST38hlcuk: You know the last little thing you have left to do?
17:46.42lcuk2no
17:47.01RST38hlcuk: Catch wazd ASAP, show him this screenshot and ask him for real icons
17:47.06lcuk2no
17:47.11lcuk2cos that editor doesnt exist
17:47.18RST38hhmmm
17:47.26ShadowJKlol, surge has the 2.5mm audio connector. That sucks
17:47.28RST38hreally? what is this image then?
17:47.45lcuk2the image was my hand drawn mockup of what i wanted the graffiti wall to look like
17:47.46RST38hShadowJK: It is Nokia, they had to spoil it right?
17:47.48lcuk2i made it real this week
17:47.52ShadowJKRST38h, yeah, and no wlan?
17:48.01lcuk2the multiselectability
17:48.04RST38hShadowJK: ah.holy.shit
17:48.06lcuk2and having it actually work
17:48.15lcuk2i had stuff i needed to adapt to do it properly
17:48.18RST38hlcuk: contact wazd. really.
17:48.40lcuk2RST38h, you do not see everything, but yes i already know to do that :)
17:48.42GeneralAntillessighs at no DisplayLink PPC support/
17:48.43RST38hlcuk: once you get the real icons you will fill obliged to finish it :)
17:48.43chxit seems that i lsot my almost brand new N810 and I am now wondering how to continue
17:48.45ShadowJKRST38h, yeah see, if they add a battery that would give you useful usetime, they remove something else you'd want.. like wlan and native voip :-)
17:48.51RST38hs/fill/feel
17:48.52lcuk2RST38h, nahhh i wont
17:48.53chxthere are so many choices...
17:49.05lcuk2cos theres no point in icons until the functions are there
17:49.06RST38hShadowJK: Nokia.
17:49.14RST38hShadowJK: At least Modest is not there :)
17:49.29ShadowJKthis whining about modest is kinda old :P
17:49.58*** join/#maemo hannesw (n=hannes@91-114-235-67.adsl.highway.telekom.at)
17:50.01ShadowJKwhere's mutt!
17:50.08RST38hBSD mail
17:50.14RST38hmutt is for wussies
17:50.49locutusWanderlust!
17:51.02lcuk2RST38h, i have a bit of a sprint this week anyway (time off work for a change!) so i will be in a better shape by the end of it :)
17:51.12*** join/#maemo javispedro (n=javier@69.Red-80-32-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
17:51.23xnt14hmm
17:53.14RST38hgo, lcuk, go! :)
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17:57.39chxwhat does the channel think of the  aigo MID P8861H ?
18:00.54*** join/#maemo dieb_ (n=dieb@150.165.63.86)
18:06.25GAN800MID are hilariously oversized with terrible battery life.
18:07.59*** join/#maemo romullo (n=romulo@150.165.63.86)
18:08.02*** join/#maemo TimRiker (i=timr@205.233.53.42)
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18:12.08ShadowJKGAN800, tiny is best: http://buttersafe.com/2009/03/10/tiny-house/
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18:18.31GAN800ShadowJK, thankfully I don't live in my mobile devices.
18:19.35GAN800MIDs are big enough that they require a bag, and if you're needing a bag you might as well get a netbook.
18:22.20GAN800Besides, you're a bad place when 'powersaving' is defined as "turn the device on and off everytime you use it'.
18:22.36*** join/#maemo victorpoluceno_ (n=victorpo@187.7.26.34)
18:22.56RST38hThere are now smaller mids on the market
18:23.04RST38hStill power hungry of course
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18:23.18GAN800Smaller still doesn't equal pocketable.
18:23.21*** part/#maemo stv0 (n=steffen@dslb-084-058-250-137.pools.arcor-ip.net)
18:23.28ShadowJKdoesn't care about pocketable at all
18:23.34RST38hwell, smaller ones fit cargo pants now
18:23.38ShadowJKcan't use it in my pocket :-)
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18:23.47*** join/#maemo slonopotamus (n=slonopot@80.90.124.131)
18:23.51hooeyFinally, I'm back.
18:23.53ShadowJKnot until video glasses and some clever method of input anyway
18:24.08RST38hNeural probes!
18:24.17ShadowJKsomething like that :-)
18:24.26RST38hPreferably shaped as long, sharp needles
18:24.32ShadowJKI wonder how much power the screens use
18:24.44GAN800A large portion.
18:24.49coldbootFinally, I'm back.
18:24.54RST38hShadow: ~50% of the total
18:25.01GAN800Finally.
18:25.04coldbootIf you have an ATI video card, DO NOT upgrade to Ubuntu 9.10.
18:25.14ShadowJKsmartq7 has huge battery.. on spec atleast
18:25.19toggles_wcoldboot: ouch... what happened?
18:25.24coldbootThen, promptly buy an Nvidia card, and burn your ATI with molten lava.
18:25.39coldbootI had 30 days of uptime.
18:25.53coldbootThen I try to run Xine, and X crashes... or actually shuts down, because I saw the shutdown messages.
18:25.57coldbootThen I try to run X again.
18:26.20coldbootSurprise surprise, one of Ubuntu's patches has fucked up my ATI proprietary driver over the last month.
18:26.23coldbootSo I can't start X.
18:26.32coldbootI try fixing the driver, installing a new driver, nothings works.
18:26.42coldbootI used to work for ATI years ago on a coop, on their Linux driver team.
18:26.43ShadowJKboot an older kernel? ;)
18:26.48coldbootI knew how fruitless this was.
18:26.59fiferboycoldboot: Can't you re-write the driver :)
18:27.12coldbootI didn't work on the driver, just wrote utilities.
18:27.16coldbootI could have booted an older kernel.
18:27.38coldbootBut compiz was also broken, so I figured it's been a while since 9.04 was released, so I thought I'd try it out.
18:27.58coldbootThen VESA, radeon, and ati drivers aren't working at all. They all hard lock the system, even with a default xorg.conf.
18:28.01coldbootSo then I was completely fucked.
18:28.26coldbootGetting the new fglrx driver would render a small improvement, X would be black-screen, instead of hanging, and I could enjoy my capslock lights.
18:28.29mgedminand I thought things were bad in 9.04 for people with Intel video
18:28.34coldbootDon't use ATI if you can avoid it, their Linux drivers are total shit.
18:28.45coldbootNot much at all has improved over the last 6 years.
18:28.56coldbootThey write terrible software.
18:29.00toggles_wi thought alex etal were doing a great job
18:29.21toggles_wgranted, not ati, and no compiz support yet, but they run my cards ok
18:29.55fiferboymgedmin: What is the problem with Intel video in 9.04?
18:29.56ShadowJKcoldboot, oh does ubuntu 9.10 use KMS? that might cause it
18:30.04coldbootThey're doing the best they can, but the company doesn't make a serious commitment to Linux, and doesn't really care.
18:30.05mgedminhad the open-source radeon driver working quite well on his ancient radeon mobility l7
18:30.31mgedminfiferboy: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/904
18:30.34coldbootGetting acceleration to work is always a pain.
18:30.36lcuk2coldboot, if it worked fine for a month then went in a flash means its being updated and will generally become better
18:30.41mgedminit was either slow or crashed a lot
18:30.47mgedminthings got better
18:31.49toggles_wcoldboot: yeah, but i think radeonhd is making pretty decent progress, another couple of releases should see it working ;-)
18:32.12coldbootIn terms of track record though, Nvidia has done much better.
18:32.20fiferboymgedmin: I notice desktop effects periodically turns off with my Intel video, but at least I haven't had a freeze
18:32.20coldbootThey had a great installer years ago, and still do.
18:32.44coldbootI still get dangling fglrx.ko objects which completely screw up the driver.
18:32.45mgedminfiferboy: that's a compiz crash; just happened for me the other day -- actually, that was the first time it crashed on me in 9.04
18:33.11mgedminthe linux software ecosystem is extremely unfriendly to source-less software
18:33.18fiferboyI used KDE's desktop effects, that must be why I haven't had it
18:33.25mgedminit's almost as if they don't want non-open-source-software to exist
18:33.48mgedminfiferboy: then I take back everything I said about compiz -- I don't know how KDE's desktop effects are implemented
18:33.54mgedminmaybe KDE just notices slowness and turns them off
18:33.57mgedminno crash necessary :)
18:34.13mgedminnotices the channel
18:34.16fiferboyThat could be
18:34.26mgedminoh, by the way, maemo mapper and osm2go don't fit into 128 megs of ram at the same time :(
18:34.30ShadowJKit's not like anyone is actively trying to break closed source software, or tivoize linux distros to only allow opensource software...
18:34.41ShadowJKthere's far more unfriendly behaviour from the other side :-(
18:34.54mgedminI wish someone looked into maemo-mapper's memory issues
18:35.01mgedminI suspect sqlite's caches are to blame
18:35.22lcuk2mgedmin :) your stance on open source software is great, don't let the channel id effect how you speak
18:35.24mgedminI don't recall memory issues back when m-m used plain tiles
18:35.40lcuk2learnt a lot from you :)
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18:35.51ShadowJKvaguely recalls saying something about sqlite and performance issues yesterday in between thunderstorm killing internets..
18:36.20mgedminhasn't noticed performance issues unrelated to memory
18:36.32ShadowJKmemory and I/O
18:36.41mgedminI think every time maemo-mapper starts queueing hourglasses in the corner, I see that it uses a lot of memory and CPU
18:36.46mgedminso I think it's simply swapping
18:36.50mgedminswapping kills performance
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18:37.29mgedminwouldn't it be awesome if there was a simple knob somewhere that you could turn and tell sqlite to use less memory for cache
18:37.32*** join/#maemo hugopl (n=hugo@200.184.118.130)
18:37.39mgedminthat of course assumes my blind uneducated guess is right
18:38.18mgedminthis would probably make a fine maemo summit talk: "how I optimized maemo mapper's memory usage"
18:38.21mgedminhint, hint
18:38.28ShadowJKso the OS has a cache and Sqlite has a cache. That's twice the ram already, except sqlite probably doesn't shrink its cache if memory is short... :P
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18:38.38lcuk2http://web.utk.edu/~jplyon/sqlite/SQLite_optimization_FAQ.html
18:39.12lcuk2that implies a recompilation requirement for cache changes
18:39.18Jaffaneeds a new topic for a Summit talk, if he wants to save money and get sponsorship
18:39.34Jaffa"Vala for Maemo development" doesn't sound like a long-lived idea anymore
18:39.42*** join/#maemo lmoura (n=lauromou@200.184.118.130)
18:39.56mgedminokay, that FAQ says the default cache is 2 megabytes
18:39.56lcuk2mgedmin, you could attempt to vacuum the db,
18:39.57JaffaMaybe, "Development in the real world: IDEs and what they can do for you"
18:40.00mgedminnot exactly all-memory-consuming
18:40.02lcuk2knows it as compact and repair :P
18:40.12slonopotamusJaffa, talk about evil of patching the worlld
18:40.28mgedminwhat happened to vala?
18:40.38ShadowJKmaemo-mapper messes with screen blanking for me too, i haven't been able to figure out how or why or what, but sometimes with maemomapper open the screen blank time becomes 2 minutes instead of the 5 minutes i've set in control panel :/
18:40.55slonopotamusJaffa, or 'on-tablet development or whhy python's performance suck'
18:41.35mgedminis seeing hints that nokia is sponsoring (or perhaps encouraging, no idea if $ changes hands) work on pypy with goals to improve performance and reduce memory usage
18:41.48mgedminwas all excited when he heard pypy's plans of mmap-friendly .pyc files
18:42.00slonopotamusmgedmin, forget it
18:42.03mgedminmaybe we'll see some results in, say, 5 years
18:42.12slonopotamusmgedmin, python will never become fast
18:42.26mgedminbut it could become faster
18:42.44slonopotamusmgedmin, the only fast python parts are those that are written in C
18:42.50mgedminhas 67 megs in OpenStreetMap.db
18:43.21mgedminoh, right, diablo has no sqlite3 command-line client :(
18:43.45slonopotamusof course it doesn't!
18:43.59mgedminuhh, file says OpenStreetMap.db is "GNU dbm 1.x or ndbm database, little endian"
18:44.29mgedminthat can't be right... right?
18:44.34slonopotamusand you won't be able to build one manually because diablo's libsqlite in incompatibly patched
18:44.46slonopotamusmgedmin, why not?
18:44.56mgedminwas so sure it was sqlite
18:45.21mgedminso only poi.db is sqlite?
18:45.25ShadowJKheh
18:45.35mgedmindoes gdbm have an in-memory cache?  is it tunable?
18:45.43ShadowJKstrace maemo-mapper... and bingo, the thing I was talking about yesterday
18:45.53ShadowJKfsync()... 1 second to execute
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18:46.13slonopotamusShadowJK, why it needs fsync at all?
18:46.21mgedminsqlite likes to fsync
18:46.30mgedminbut why?  what transactions could mm be committing?
18:46.37mgedminsaving the current track?
18:46.47mgedminwhere does maemo mapper keep all the data?
18:47.00ShadowJKsure does consume huge amounts of RAM
18:47.01mgedmin~/.maemo-mapper/paths.db is an sqlite db
18:47.02infobotokay, mgedmin
18:47.11ShadowJK... 4 seconds to fsync
18:47.18mgedminthank you very much, infobot, for remembering that very useful piece of knowledge
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18:47.39mgedminouchies
18:47.42slonopotamus:D
18:47.47mgedminsuddenly realizes why he never noticed
18:47.58slonopotamus~/.maemo-mapper/paths.db
18:47.59infobot/.maemo-mapper/paths.db is, like, an sqlite db
18:47.59mgedminbecause when you run out of ram, scrolling the map has latencies in tens of seconds
18:48.05slonopotamus:D
18:48.06slonopotamuslol
18:48.08mgedmin:)
18:48.18slonopotamus~/ is home, sweet home
18:48.19infobot...but / is already something else...
18:48.25slonopotamuscrap
18:48.27mgedminwhat is /?
18:48.28slonopotamus~/
18:48.29infobot~/ is your home dir silly!, or root, of all Unix
18:48.35ShadowJKinfobot, forget ~/
18:48.35infobotShadowJK: i didn't have anything called '~/' to forget
18:48.52slonopotamusinfobot, forget /
18:48.52infobotslonopotamus: i forgot /
18:48.53mgedminokay, that's a bit inconsistent
18:48.56slonopotamus~/
18:49.05mgedmin/
18:49.10mgedmin\
18:49.11mgedmin~\
18:49.12slonopotamus~/ is home, sweet home
18:49.13infobotslonopotamus: okay
18:49.28mgedminoh no, the ascii-art half-dna spiral got interrupted
18:50.31slonopotamus~infobot is just boring stupiid bot
18:50.41slonopotamus...
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18:53.19coldboot~apricot
18:53.32coldbootha! fooled you, infobot.
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18:56.21coldbootTracking /opt/maemo, ~/.scratchbox2, ~/.maemo-sdk in git really paid off when I had to clean install.
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18:57.06ShadowJKheh, maemo-mapper rarely uses more than 20% CPU because it sits waiting on swap or file i/o all the time :)
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19:00.30javispedro~burn gcc
19:00.31infobotACTION pours gasoline all over gcc, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze
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19:01.42slonopotamusjavispedro, don't touch gcc
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19:02.46Jaffamgedmin: Vala's a dead-end for Maemo with the move to Qt; unless it had some Qt backends created.
19:02.56JaffaWhich'd be... challenging (AIUI)
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19:04.23slonopotamusvala's not needed
19:04.46*** join/#maemo blade_runner (n=arezende@200.184.118.130)
19:04.50Jaffaslonopotamus: A nice, garbage-collected, high-level language with decent IDE support is needed.
19:05.06JaffaThat's probably Python now, with PyQt/Pluthon
19:05.14javispedroand that's called Qt with Boehm's, and is just waiting for anyone to develop it
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19:06.27Jaffajavispedro: Boehm's?
19:06.47javispedroa garbage collector which afaik works with Qt
19:07.07javispedro(for C++)
19:07.11Jaffalooks forward to seeing the ASM performance on OMAP3430; perhaps Java'll be a real contender there.
19:07.15JaffaStill C++ ;-)
19:07.47crashanddieI'd love to have a good Java implementation on the NITs
19:08.06crashanddieso I can run Eclipse and program in C++ on the go!
19:08.15GAN800Woo
19:08.19Jaffacrashanddie: javispedro's Jazelle work is promising. And Sun are incrasingly focusing on ARM with Java SE embedded
19:08.23Jaffacrashanddie: :-p
19:08.42javispedrohas been playing with jamvm and that's the reason he ~burnt gcc
19:08.56ShadowJKwould love to have any java implementation on the nit
19:08.57crashanddiehave you guys ever worked with ikvm ?
19:09.04Jaffacrashanddie: not directly.
19:09.06slonopotamusjavispedro, burn jamvm
19:09.07ShadowJKwell mostly I'd want midp2, but still :-)
19:09.37crashanddieabsolutely amazing: converts most java libraries into C#. Absolutely perfect when you have to use that half baked C# language but can still use familiar Java libraries
19:09.39JaffaShadowJK: Jalimo basically works. I've run equinox and OSGi bundles in X Terminal and written noddy little SWT apps which use it.
19:09.53JaffaStart up time is the big kicker.
19:10.25JaffaI looked at having a maemo-launcher like thing using OSGi to have different "apps" as bundles with their own classloaders etc; but SWT doesn't like not being the main thread.
19:11.02ShadowJKbesides, having a java-launcher just means it'll get paged out while the user uses the browser or something else, and paging it back in is probably slower than launching it from scratch..
19:11.10javispedroslonopotamus, the problem is gcc and whatever is doing with register allocations and stack. not really gcc's fault, since they clearly say that inline asm is not allowed to break program flow
19:11.23javispedrobut I'm ranting either way
19:11.26javispedro;)
19:12.39javispedromemory is the reason I'd wanted jamvm; it's the lightest I know
19:12.59slonopotamusjava will always be a mem hog
19:13.18slonopotamustrust me, i'm java developer after all :)
19:13.24ShadowJKrunning it without jit should save some? :)
19:13.50javispedrojit usually means 2x memory usage
19:14.27*** join/#maemo wazd (n=chatzill@gwh-1-22-val21.ln.rinet.ru)
19:14.30crashanddieslonopotamus, java developer as in "you develop using java", or, "you develop java"
19:15.32Jaffa19:36 < ShadowJK> so the OS has a cache and Sqlite has a cache. That's twice
19:15.38JaffaEh?
19:15.42Jaffawonders what he pressed.
19:16.00JaffaShadowJK: It'd be paged out, but it'd be paged in in an initialised state
19:16.34*** join/#maemo chenca (n=chenca@200.184.118.130)
19:16.59ShadowJKJaffa, ah but when it's finding something else to page out to make room to page java-launcher back in, the random write/read load will make the SD/MMC behave like a tape drive ;)
19:17.12JaffaNot a flyer anyway
19:17.46slonopotamuscrashanddie, in java
19:18.21ShadowJKhm wait, SWT on maemo?
19:18.44ShadowJKisn't that the thing that made azureus huge memory and cpu hog and unrunnable on PCs 'til this day? ;)
19:19.16javispedroI blame the gtk backend ;)
19:19.38glasshehe
19:19.55*** join/#maemo kkrusty (n=cache@5ac51507.bb.sky.com)
19:21.47JaffaShadowJK: SWT's lighter weight and faster than Swing IME. Azureus is slow and bloated as they pile in "rich media content" like a web browser which goes and does flashy effects to show lots of videos I'm not interested in when I want to torrent something
19:23.27chxazureus can be cli
19:23.29RST38hthrows up seeing SWT and Swing mentioned
19:23.59JaffaSWT's not too bad. Better than GTK+ at least ;-)
19:24.03Jaffachx: Hmm, interesting.
19:24.53ShadowJKhasn't seen any flashy effects, web browsing capability or videos in it
19:26.30qwerty12_N810I think that came when it was renamed to "Miro"
19:27.22ShadowJKit's miro now?didn't it rename to something else before that
19:27.32chxJaffa: http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/12474107/com/Vuze-console-4.2.0.3-B18.pm.1.noarch.rpm.html
19:27.34Jaffaqwerty12_N810: s/Miro/VCuze/
19:27.38Jaffaqwerty12_N810: s/Miro/Vuze/
19:27.50qwerty12_N810Ah, thanks
19:31.49*** join/#maemo nickar (n=nickar@190.1.20.141)
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19:44.38RST38hAny assembler wizards around?
19:46.48woglinderst arm? x86?
19:47.00RST38harm
19:47.07woglindehm little bit
19:47.09woglindeshow me
19:47.16RST38hActually I am looking for GNU AS directive that cancels .requ
19:53.26derf.requ?
19:53.28derfIs that anything like .req?
19:54.35RST38hSorry, .req
19:54.41derf.unreq
19:54.46RST38husually uses ARMSDT syntax
19:54.50RST38hderf: Ah!
19:54.52RST38hThanks!
19:56.56RST38hHmm...ok, it compiled. Let us see what it does now
19:57.22derfFor future reference: http://sourceware.org/binutils/docs-2.19/as/ARM-Directives.html
19:57.47derfI love, "Note - this pseudo op can be used to delete builtin in register name aliases (eg 'r0'). This should only be done if it is really necessary."
19:58.51woglinderst haha -> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/gnu-assembler/arm-directives.html
19:58.54RST38hderf: Ah, the beauties of GNU...
19:59.47*** join/#maemo avs (n=avs@a91-153-249-195.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
20:00.06RST38hSegmentation fault <== expected for the first run
20:00.29*** join/#maemo slonopotamus (n=slonopot@80.90.124.131)
20:04.14*** join/#maemo flavioribeiro (n=avaty@189.71.69.58)
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20:16.25qwerty12_N810no thanks
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20:19.54*** join/#maemo dieb_ (n=dieb@189.71.25.228)
20:25.30lbtcoldboot: do you know if fiferboy fixed that short-touch bug?
20:27.21*** join/#maemo Omegamoon (n=egoe@demolitionman.xs4all.nl)
20:27.49*** join/#maemo TimRiker (i=timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker)
20:28.46RST38hSecond attempt.
20:31.41RST38hWow, it runs! 24fps though
20:32.41RST38hGotta reduce the number of memory accesses
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20:33.41slonopotamusRST38h, what the hell are you doing?
20:34.06lbthe's twittering
20:35.19RST38hslonopotamus: coding in assembler
20:35.20*** join/#maemo torkiano (n=torkiano@118.154.60.213.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
20:35.46slonopotamusRST38h, having fun? :)
20:37.42woglinderst 24 fps a game?
20:38.29slonopotamuswoglinde, 24 fps assembler!
20:39.12RST38hwoglinde: kinda...
20:39.19RST38hwoglinde: GBA rotated screen mode
20:39.39coldbootShould compiling in armel go just as fast as compiling in i386?
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20:40.56RST38hcolboot: No
20:41.43RST38hIf you are using SB to compile armel binaries, your GCC will run on top of Qemu
20:41.56RST38hAnd native armel compilation is just slow because your device is slow
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20:45.58slonopotamusbullshit!
20:46.12slonopotamusnative compilation is ok
20:46.35slonopotamusjust don't write slow programs
20:47.29woglinde*g*
20:48.13RST38hyes, limit yourself to Hello World please
20:48.21RST38hfewer bugs this way too
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20:49.34coldbootRST38h: So right now the armel compiler is going really slow, it's probably not on top of qemu. I've had this problem before, but I don't know what causes it.
20:49.42coldbootRST38h: This is in sb2.
20:51.03*** join/#maemo javispedro (n=javier@69.Red-80-32-146.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
20:52.09slonopotamusRST38h, gcc is far from hello world, it isn't slow on n800
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20:54.03*** part/#maemo uzzed (n=alexandr@189.58.16.218.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br)
20:55.39JaffaRST38h: I thought Scratchbox 1, compiling to armel, used a cross-compiling x86 gcc
20:55.56coldbootWho works on Scratchbox 2?
20:55.59javispedroand I believe this is the case
20:56.14coldbootWhat's an easy way to tell if the right compiler is being used?
20:56.20Jaffacoldboot: One man and his dog, it seems.
20:56.22Jaffa;-)
20:56.42javispedrogcc -v should print interesting things
20:57.25milhouseSo is this legit? http://www.intomobile.com/2009/07/16/first-non-nokia-device-to-ship-with-maemo-hits-the-market-optima-op5-e.html
20:58.03Jaffamilhouse: "legit"?
20:58.16milhouseofficial?
20:58.22milhouseor a chinese knock-off?
20:58.26JaffaLegal, real or useful?
20:58.39JaffaIt's using bits of Chinook, according to Stskeeps (who's looked at the initfs)
20:58.48milhouseLegal & Real - I barely considered Maemo 4 useful...
20:58.56javispedroand the copyrighted firefox icon
20:59.10JaffaNo word from Nokia if they've licenced the Maemo trademark, for example
20:59.26coldbootjavispedro: Here's what I get form scratchbox 2 in both targets: http://pastie.org/549887
20:59.27JaffaSo, I guess it's mostly a knock-off.
20:59.48milhouseshame if it's a knock-off - it would certainly help maemo to have more device support
20:59.58milhouses/device/official device/
21:00.18JaffaThere've been lots of Chinese names on maemo-* recently.
21:00.40JaffaIt could be legally licensed; Nokia aren't going to tell us (although there's no press release)
21:00.59qwerty12_N810They have a repo for the clones: http://www.woojoy.com/repository/pool/free/
21:01.02milhousecould make long-term OS support interesting - not so easy to EOL a version due to a Nokia hardware change if other manufacturers are supporting the platform
21:01.08JaffaWould be good to get them involved in Mer, then they can have what they've got legally.
21:01.32Jaffamilhouse: Indeed. Last word on it at OSiM from Ari Jaaksi was that they weren't interested in licencing Maemo
21:01.41milhouseI'm beginning to wonder if there is space for so many mobile operating systems
21:02.09milhouseiPhone, Symbian, Android, WebOS, Maemo, Mer... can they all survive?
21:02.39milhouseWin Mob... I've probably forgotten one or two more as well
21:02.47javispedrodunno coldboot, mines clearly say  --host=i386-linux --target=arm-none-linux-gnueabi
21:03.28Jaffamilhouse: OpenMoko, all the proprietary SE & Motorola & ... OSes
21:03.36coldbootjavispedro: So mine is the wrong version, it's not a cross-compiler...
21:03.51RST38hJaffa: I seem to remember that you could use "native" tools or "host" tools
21:04.10milhouseJaffa: Ah yes, although SE seem to be heading down the Android route, and are Motorola still in the game?
21:04.11RST38hJaffa: But I also remember SB2 guys turning off "host" tools option
21:04.47JaffaRST38h: Really? Blimey. (I did caveat my original stmt with sb1 ;-))
21:05.05Jaffamilhouse: Goodness knows. Last few phones have been low-level Linux based, FWIW.
21:05.28javispedroit _should_ use host tools, at least maemo sdk 2 promoted that you could install newer versions of "Host tools" with less effort than in sb1
21:05.48*** join/#maemo joelmaher_ (n=joelmahe@nat/mozilla/x-82d83b13c61ba233)
21:06.11Jaffajavispedro: Given the pain with using the "official" Maemo SDK, I've never thought it worth the effort to suffer /more/ pain for an unofficial SDK based on sb2...
21:06.38javispedroI'm yet to experience that "pain" :)
21:06.41coldbootjavispedro: So I can install tools and toolchains.
21:06.52milhouseThis Chinese Optima device is using a Marvell PXA320 processor... if they can get Fremantle running on this thing it might go a long way to solving the problems getting Fremantle to run on N8x0
21:06.58milhouse(maybe)
21:07.02coldbootjavispedro: For tools I get etch, etch-2008, lenny-2009-1
21:07.18Jaffamilhouse: What problems getting Fremantle running on the N8x0? Mer already has most of it running on a 770.
21:07.56coldbootjavispedro: For toolchain I get: arm-2005q3, arm-2007q3, i386-2007q3
21:08.13milhouseJaffa: Based on what Nokia have said - I don't know if the problems are real or marketing bs
21:08.35javispedroI'm using etch-2008 and the 2007-q3... but on sb1, so I don't really know what to suggest ...
21:08.55milhousemarketing bs as in "prematurely end of life a bunch of devices so that the suckers will go out and buy the new kit"
21:09.38Jaffamilhouse: Nokia aren't backporting Fremantle because of wanting to use Clutter & effects to define the look of Fremantle: no accelerated 3D on N8x0 and slower CPU make that "real"
21:10.22milhouseJaffa: Fair enough - I guess the Chinese guys will have designed a reasonable 3D engine into their PXA320 device
21:10.24*** join/#maemo pablo_ (n=pablo@189.2.128.130)
21:10.34milhouseJaffa: which might make Fremantle feasible
21:10.53javispedroand I'm sure whatever drivers they get will be of superior quality than whatever driver we may get ;)
21:11.01Jaffajavispedro: No sb1 pain? Wow.
21:11.20javispedroJaffa, I'm intrigued. What did you hate about sb1?
21:11.30qwerty12_N810milhouse: They're using chinook - I don't think they're concerned about updates...
21:12.13milhouseqwerty: haha
21:13.57Jaffajavispedro: It's probably more Nokia's use of it than the tool. The multiple install steps; the lack of quality in the SDK (all the warnings on starting af-sb-init.sh, for example; no clean upgrade path; no consideration for easily installing rootstraps into existing installs (e.g. having diablo & fremantle: works; but instructions not good); having to upgrade sb when upgrading SDK - blurred lines)
21:14.16javispedrook :P
21:14.29JaffaWhat else, massive disk space use; poor x86-64 support; no Mac support so limits developers to x86 Linux users; ...
21:14.32JaffaI could go on ;-)
21:14.36javispedroI myself just get latest Apophis
21:14.55javispedrothen install it on vmware since I'm not going to disable vdso ;)
21:15.16JaffaYeah, the instructions don't make it clear what turning off vdso will do
21:15.35javispedroapart from destroy any hope for performance you had on your workstation, dunno :D
21:16.40coldbootjavispedro: I don't get it, I set my toolchain to the arm one, when the arm rootstrap was set.
21:16.53Jaffajavispedro: Yeah, but NOkia don't tell you that
21:17.00coldbootjavispedro: It says that the target is arm, and the compiler is i486, but gcc -v says the same thing, and compiling is extremely slow.
21:17.45javispedrocoldboot, may it be that's just sb2 usual slowness?
21:18.02javispedroit is a known "to do" afaik
21:18.57coldbootjavispedro: It's only for arm, it's orders of magnitude slower than i386.
21:19.06RST38h32fps
21:19.37javispedroguess what? try to compile anything, and then ps ax  to see if there's some qemu-user loaded
21:19.44RST38honce again wins, ARM and its weak memory performance lose
21:20.32coldbootjavispedro: 32235 pts/4    S+     0:00 /usr/bin/sb2-qemu-arm -U LD_PRELOAD -L / -0 g++ /usr/bin/g++
21:20.54javispedrothere you have :D now try to guess why it's doing that
21:21.59coldbootjavispedro: I don't know if that's the host arm compiler compiling to arm, or the host i386 compiler.
21:22.16javispedrothat's the arm emulated compiler
21:22.45coldbootWhat would the host i386 to arm compiler look like?
21:23.21javispedrofor a start, it will not begin with "sb2-qemu-arm"
21:24.29coldbootDo all invocations get intercepted and run by sb2-qemu-arm unless they're gcc, when everything's working right?
21:25.30slonopotamusjust builds on tablet without any pain
21:26.22RST38hasks the Tentacled One to give his ARM two more registers
21:26.45javispedrocoldboot, sb2-qemu-arm intercepts all armel binaries trying to be exec'd using binfmt
21:26.52javispedronot only gcc
21:27.00Jaffajavispedro: We should get a really lightweight image together which runs enough to export NFS/SSHFS with a recent Scratchbox. Then installation becomes: get Scratchbox image, install preferred rootstraps and cross-mount filesystems.
21:27.22JaffaAlthough once Rover's released, I think I'll do more on-device building (lots of disk, faster processor)
21:28.04javispedroI am currently doing just that :D
21:28.09coldbootjavispedro: And what's supposed to happen when gcc gets run?
21:28.29coldbootjavispedro: Since it's supposed to run an i386 executable.
21:28.39javispedromutual nfs : host mounts vmware, vmware mounts host: I can modify scratchbox's rootstraps from host, scratchbox's home is host's
21:28.51Jaffajavispedro: I'm imagining an image with no X or anything. If you've got a really lightweight starting point, I'd love to see it
21:28.54Jaffajavispedro: Sounds good
21:28.56javispedroI cannot get more "out of the box" than hat
21:29.01javispedro*that
21:29.06javispedro*It
21:29.10javispedrodarn typos ;)
21:29.45JaffaThe "Maemo Development Appliance" approach appeared sensible but: a) it provides a second desktop; I want to use my own; b) distributing Nokia's SDK is shaky and more work.
21:30.40javispedroJaffa, unfortunately minimal build-capable Debian is around ~1GiB
21:30.50JaffaHmm.
21:31.01javispedrobut will easily fill up to ~3 Gib (not really sure if minimal is enough)
21:31.11Jaffawonders about Ubuntu JeOS would be better
21:31.15javispedrothen each rootstrap is around ~0.5GiB
21:32.01Jaffaimagines: provide Scratchbox image and tools available for download; and instructions for installing the various rootstraps.
21:32.09*** part/#maemo zimmerle (n=zimmerle@200.184.118.130)
21:32.18Jaffa+ workstation setup for Windows, OSX and Linux
21:32.35JaffaAnd then, bingo, I've also got a summit talk ;-)
21:32.42javispedrolol
21:32.52javispedrolbt was doing something interesting too, using obs
21:33.11JaffaYeah, must speak to him about that too
21:33.15lbtm
21:33.30lbtshakes his head to try and clear it
21:33.37lbtQt + gi
21:33.38lbtt
21:33.40lbtugh
21:35.20*** join/#maemo victorpoluceno (n=victorpo@187.7.26.34)
21:38.53javispedrothis is the problem with Java: the BIG-optimized OpenJDK has nearly 30MiB footprint.
21:39.10javispedrothe jalimo team has done a pretty good job, with less than 15MiB
21:39.54ds3do you really want full java vs J2ME stuff?
21:39.59Jaffajavispedro: Seen the work Sun's doing with Project Jigsaw and the Java SE Embedded work
21:40.04Jaffawants full Java.
21:40.15javispedrowants full Java too.
21:40.38lbtwants perl
21:41.02javispedrothe Embedded JRE, as installed on my tablet, is 46 MiB
21:41.05lbtwants perl running on parrot
21:43.21coldbootjavispedro: I've found `maemo-sdk enter devel`, but it says it can't find some instruction while compiling.
21:43.55*** join/#maemo hellwolf (n=hellwolf@a213-22-69-165.cpe.netcabo.pt)
21:44.29javispedrodoes not remember the maemo sdk 2 manual
21:44.41javispedroeither way if you feel your setup is fscked... you know :D
21:44.45javispedroreinstall ;)
21:45.08coldbootjavispedro: I'm not sure if it ever worked. I've also been tracking it in git the whole time.
21:45.29ds3why full java?
21:46.32ShadowJKwants java me :-)
21:47.08ds3I have had mix experience with java stuff - the doc converter thing for palm worked okay but the latest experience with a GPX viewer was painful... it kept running out of memory and the app would just silently fail
21:48.50ShadowJKopera mini seems to scale with available memory quite well :/
21:49.40glassvm doesn't matter if the coder of the java app is stupid
21:49.46*** join/#maemo nickar (n=nickar@190.1.23.171)
21:50.34javispedrolanguage doesn't matter. as the old saying goes, you can code fortran in any language ;)
21:50.53glassye :p
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21:55.07Luke-Jr)#()@
21:55.24Luke-Jrmy life is the most suck possible
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22:10.09|thunderHi all, I Just got my google voice account all setup. So I decided that it was time I got my gizmo SIP account setup in my maemo account so I can send and recieve sip calls via "Internet Call" and the red/green status bar icon.
22:10.50*** join/#maemo anibal (n=anibal@debian/developer/anibal)
22:10.55|thunderSo, I got that all set up... Now all of my incoming calls to my google voice number are forwarded to my internet tablet SIP account
22:11.17*** part/#maemo anibal (n=anibal@debian/developer/anibal)
22:11.20|thunderBut in order to make a call I have to use the Grand Central dialer or the google voice website
22:12.05|thunderDoes anyone know if it is possible to use gizmo SIP for incoming calls and use Google Voice for outgoing calls without using grand central program or the google site ?
22:12.24*** join/#maemo eichi (n=eichi@p5B20294B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
22:12.24|thunderis there a way to send all outgoing calls through google voice rather than through gizmo which costs money ?
22:12.47mavhcand can I fake being in usa to sign up to gVoice?
22:13.00|thunderprobably
22:13.10|thunderI was on a waiting list for almost a year
22:13.17|thunderand im in US
22:13.18|thunderlol
22:13.50mavhcI got an invite
22:14.36amr-anyone know where the status(?) icon for xchat is located?
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22:25.50|thunderamr-; its in my status tray
22:26.01amr-i mean
22:26.02amr-the actual file
22:26.03amr-heh
22:26.07|thunderlol...
22:26.10amr-i want to make it black and white
22:26.19|thunder/etc/share/pixmaps or something
22:27.19|thunder/usr/share i meant
22:27.28amr-yeah i figured
22:27.28amr-:p
22:27.28amr-ty
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22:29.18|thunderfind it ?
22:29.23amr-yep, ty
22:29.28|thundercool
22:29.38amr-anyone know of an ftpd for maemo?
22:29.39amr-:D
22:29.55amr-oh there is proftpd apparently
22:31.01rkirti~seen vimzard
22:31.04infobotvimzard <n=arunc@203.199.213.3> was last seen on IRC in channel #gsoc, 88d 3h 40m 52s ago, saying: 'sid0: :-P'.
22:31.12rkirtiD'oh
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22:37.35daniel32708Guys, when I try to format my external 8gb SD,  in my N810, using the "File manager", it gives me an error "memory card corrupted or unformatted" so i try to format it but then it tells me "unable to format - memory card in use"  but it is not in use....   can u guys please help me?   i wish there was a g-parted  type of thing, is there?
22:39.18javispedroso what? remove it and format using whatever computer you like
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22:39.37daniel32708i got no sdhc in my other memory card readers
22:40.10javispedrothen use usb cable
22:40.22javispedrobut remember to reboot/power off instead of just unplugging if you modify the partition table
22:40.31daniel32708i did, but my pc doesnt let me mount it
22:40.48*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@pool-71-241-231-2.washdc.fios.verizon.net)
22:41.07javispedrobut you don't have g-parted or some other partition manager on your pc?
22:41.09daniel32708is there a gparted for maemo?  or an equivalent?
22:42.29daniel32708ok, gparted in my pc found it... ill try formatting there
22:42.42daniel32708but still it would be cool to have gparted in the maemo hehe
22:43.25ShadowJKThere's parted in the repos, though that's not gparted.
22:43.34daniel32708what formats can the n810 read?  only  fats?   or can it use ext2,3 or 4?
22:43.40daniel32708foe the external sd that is
22:43.52daniel32708shadow: thx!
22:44.31ShadowJKI'd probably do N8x0-as-card-reader and use desktop machine myself :)
22:44.52daniel32708yeah thats what am doing now
22:45.06ShadowJKMake sure you're not wiping your harddrive.
22:45.12daniel32708but can it read the memory card if i format it as an ext2,3 or 4?
22:45.16daniel32708or only fatts?
22:45.52ShadowJKI think it can do ext2 atleast
22:46.01ShadowJKIt takes about 2 minutes to find out..
22:46.13daniel32708yeah lol
22:46.17daniel32708ill try
22:47.10daniel32708lets see what happens
22:47.14daniel32708i am doint an ext3
22:49.51jhfordis it possible to get anything more useful out of the nokia during startup other than the nokia logo?
22:50.02jhforda standard linux start thing would be heaven
22:50.57ShadowJK"standard linux start" these days is $distro logo...
22:51.15jhfordok.  old school one :P
22:51.36daniel32708i would love to have a login screen
22:51.44daniel32708has any body done something like that?
22:51.44qwerty12_N810jhford: http://wiki.maemo.org/Advanced_booting#Boot_messages
22:51.56jhfordawesome!
22:53.43daniel32708ok, ext3 didnt work
22:53.48daniel32708lets try ext2
22:54.15*** join/#maemo GAN8001 (n=ryan@2416422hfc34.tampabay.res.rr.com)
22:59.57daniel32708how sad....no ext2 on external sd
23:06.59*** join/#maemo blassey (n=blassey@c-71-232-21-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net)
23:07.04daniel32708fat32 did work
23:08.11*** join/#maemo dragorn (i=nobody@durandal.kismetwireless.net)
23:08.13*** join/#maemo lcuk (i=lcuk@cpc3-oldh7-0-0-cust590.manc.cable.ntl.com)
23:09.18qwerty12_N810Hint: There's mbcache and ext2 modules in /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/. Feel free to insmod them.
23:09.41daniel32708thx
23:09.49lcukhiccups
23:09.57qwerty12_N810BOO!
23:10.01lcuk:O
23:10.12lcuku scared me
23:10.17lcukhiccups again
23:10.26daniel32708i love thenokia n810!!!
23:10.43lcuk:) yes daniel32708
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23:22.08*** join/#maemo elninja (n=r@adsl-76-208-50-82.dsl.sbndin.sbcglobal.net)
23:22.12lcukwhats people moved to now piratebay is defunct
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23:24.10*** join/#maemo jrocha (n=JRocha@40.86.117.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com)
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23:24.58javispedrolcuk: well, they sold out after all. not that it does matter, considering legal pressure I would've done same.
23:25.54lcukso are all the users gonna stay there, or is theres a new playground to try?
23:26.20*** join/#maemo ilrx (n=ian@82-45-111-195.cable.ubr01.maid.blueyonder.co.uk)
23:26.35javispedroi assume it's just a matter of time and waiting for "the guy with the balls" ;)
23:26.52lcukwazd?
23:26.53crashanddielcuk, mininova, isohunt, torrentreactor, btjunkie (BT IS MADE OUT OF JUNKIES)
23:27.00qwerty12_N810has a demonoid account that he should use more
23:27.07lcukaccounts?
23:27.16crashanddielcuk, dmnd is invite only
23:27.17lcukyou willingly sign up for accounts?
23:27.31qwerty12_N810No, the one but I may have invites, let me check
23:27.33crashanddielcuk, yes, you know the thing that lets you sign in?
23:27.35lcukive heard of mininova
23:27.37javispedroprivate torrents? you don't leech? :P
23:27.59crashanddiejavispedro, I have my upload limit set to -20% and 1 minute after torrent completes
23:28.09qwerty12_N810javispedro: my dl ratio > ul :\
23:28.17crashanddieI am secretly hoping illegal downloads will stop while still using the system
23:28.30javispedromy dl:ul ratio is something like 300:1
23:28.33lcukjavispedro, before bit torrent there was directconnect and dc++ etc, :) there are hubs around which require 100s of gb of stuff to enter
23:28.47javispedrobut that's because I'm subscribed to the national provider of VADSL
23:28.48crashanddiewaste!
23:28.55lcukbut no registration, self governed and whilst large, its under radar :)
23:29.04lcukwaste is even smaller scale
23:29.05javispedroVERY asimmetric digital subscriptors line ;)
23:29.13crashanddiehttp://waste.sourceforge.net/
23:29.26lcukjavispedro, your ratio shouldnt matter if you have decent stuff to share :)
23:29.45lcukyour 1mb of upload oculd save someone waiting a month
23:30.21javispedrodoubt anyone in this world is interested in my porn^Wdata
23:30.29lcukcrashanddie, waste would technically work well with the liqbase group ;)
23:30.30qwerty12_N810"Uploaded: 3.53 GB" "Downloaded: 19.09 GB"
23:30.49lcukjavispedro, do not underestimate the depravity of the person down the st
23:31.08lcukjust remember: you are not the only one who likes midget porn
23:31.32javispedrolcuk, god to know. i guess that makes us two now :D
23:31.50lcuk2? hell theres more - crashanddie has the biggest collection ever
23:31.50crashanddielcuk, it would indeed
23:31.57qwerty12_N810Meh. Lanky porn is where it's at.
23:32.17crashanddieI only do eunuch gay porn
23:32.22lcukthats not lanky porn, thats you watching with wrong aspect ratio again
23:32.27crashanddiewell, eunuch gay midget porn
23:33.05qwerty12_N810Oh, I can make invite codes. Anyone want?
23:33.51lcukinvite codes to eunuch get midget porn sites?
23:34.02lcukcant type
23:34.09lcukgay
23:34.14crashanddielcuk, and will that huge collection, I like to think of myself as someone midgets can look up to
23:34.22qwerty12_N810No, demonoid. But I'd be happy to get codes for that.
23:34.25lcuklol
23:34.41lcuki dont need to signup to anything
23:34.45lcukwas just idle ponderment
23:35.03lcukholy crap - that was a mammoth trump
23:35.11lcukneeds gas mask
23:35.16crashanddieBut quite frankly, eunuch gay midget porn has too many shortcomings
23:35.50`0660:)
23:37.10javispedromade it through his whole music library and now understands why apple markets something with 30 GiB hdd
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23:40.14*** part/#maemo daniel32708 (n=daniel@201.198.25.158)
23:40.19lcukjavispedro, before your 30gb, my principle music selection fitting on a couple of 90min cassettes
23:40.56crashanddieprincipal
23:41.14*** join/#maemo hellwolf (n=hellwolf@a213-22-69-165.cpe.netcabo.pt)
23:42.55lcukwonders why crashanddie is correcting him :P
23:43.06lcukmy english was fine, its you lot that are screwed ;)
23:43.15lcuksays canvass and gets heckles up :D
23:43.17qwerty12_N810it's
23:43.58crashanddieheckled
23:44.14crashanddieqwerty12_N810, we're actually making sentences :P
23:44.38lcukno, i get your heckles up by heckling you.  you have been heckled.
23:45.27lcukponders coding
23:49.36*** join/#maemo rsalveti (n=rsalveti@189.70.35.140)
23:50.30*** join/#maemo romullo (n=romulo@189.71.74.24)
23:56.13javispedroforgot to recharge the nit
23:56.28javispedrowill have to leave it the whole night sucking energy
23:56.45javispedrohope it's not in flames when I wake up

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