| 00:00.45 | man_in_shack | actually, it's going ridiculously slow |
| 00:00.49 | man_in_shack | load average is insane |
| 00:01.19 | man_in_shack | wtf is metalayer-crawl? |
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| 02:26.34 | Luke-Jr | so each "minute" of time remaining on battery appears to be more like 1.5 seconds in reality ;) |
| 02:26.45 | Luke-Jr | man_in_shack: drop Maemo, it sucks |
| 02:27.27 | man_in_shack | what do you suggest? |
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| 02:31.47 | Luke-Jr | man_in_shack: I use Gentoo. |
| 02:31.58 | Luke-Jr | man_in_shack: KDE is bloated tho, so I don't know of any good DE |
| 02:32.15 | man_in_shack | xfce? |
| 02:32.20 | man_in_shack | fluxbox? |
| 02:32.25 | Luke-Jr | are those Qt4? |
| 02:32.26 | Luke-Jr | no |
| 02:32.34 | Luke-Jr | Qt4 is needed or automatic suck |
| 02:32.36 | Luke-Jr | :þ |
| 02:32.45 | man_in_shack | then you're stuck with kde |
| 02:32.51 | man_in_shack | which is automatic suck |
| 02:33.31 | Luke-Jr | not automatic |
| 02:33.38 | Luke-Jr | but this reinventing Qt4 is old |
| 02:33.42 | Luke-Jr | and MySQL is huge |
| 02:33.47 | Luke-Jr | not to mention utterly broken PIM |
| 02:35.41 | EdLin | Luke-Jr: you compile your system using gentoo on an ARM CPU? |
| 02:39.35 | Luke-Jr | EdLin: I run Gentoo on my N810 |
| 02:40.42 | EdLin | Luke-Jr: I know that, but you compile and download your programs on your n810? |
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| 02:41.01 | Luke-Jr | EdLin: yes |
| 02:41.04 | Luke-Jr | for the most part |
| 02:41.15 | Luke-Jr | qt-webkit is the one exception that requires too much memory to link |
| 02:41.22 | EdLin | and that's more user-friendly than maemo?! |
| 02:41.30 | Luke-Jr | I didn't say more user-friendly |
| 02:41.36 | EdLin | ok |
| 02:41.37 | Luke-Jr | the topic was resource friendly |
| 02:41.50 | EdLin | interesting |
| 02:42.25 | EdLin | now if you could compile skype, since my most CPU intensive performance problems are with it, I might consider it. |
| 02:43.08 | Luke-Jr | Skype sucks |
| 02:43.36 | EdLin | well, I have to use it to talk to people via VOIP for free. Not too many people use gismo, etc. |
| 02:48.09 | soap | my turned-off N810 consumes less resources than your gentoo. |
| 02:48.20 | man_in_shack | hah soap |
| 02:48.31 | soap | doesn't make it a viable option. |
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| 04:28.33 | Luke-Jr | anyone here use Google Voice? |
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| 04:53.58 | xnt14 | wishes that he had an invite... |
| 04:54.18 | Luke-Jr | xnt14: no such thing |
| 04:54.29 | xnt14 | I mean account :P |
| 04:54.43 | xnt14 | sorta confused it with wave |
| 04:54.50 | xnt14 | has to go to sleep... |
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| 05:00.35 | RST38h | moo all |
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| 05:51.08 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus is a yandere! |
| 05:51.09 | Luke-Jr | runs |
| 05:51.40 | slonopotamus | pulls out his katana and kills Luke-Jr |
| 05:51.53 | Luke-Jr | x.x |
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| 06:11.35 | thux | morning |
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| 06:46.23 | qtomu | @All: I am getting the message "dpkg: status database area is locked by another process" when trying to install debian package on device using ESBox; I have tried the googled solutions but none of them works... does anyone has any idea... how to fix it? |
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| 07:01.12 | slonopotamus | Luke-Jr, how's bme going :P |
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| 07:11.32 | usicow | is anyone aware of an app that lets me run a bash script just by clicking on a button rather than opening up a terminal, becoming super user and running the script manually? |
| 07:13.00 | thopiekar | moin |
| 07:13.05 | ukki | usicow: personal launcher? |
| 07:13.06 | usicow | moin |
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| 07:13.45 | usicow | ukki: is it possible to run python scripts? |
| 07:13.56 | usicow | from withing personal launcher I mean |
| 07:13.59 | usicow | within |
| 07:14.02 | ukki | can't see why not |
| 07:14.09 | usicow | ok cool |
| 07:14.12 | usicow | thanks |
| 07:14.43 | ukki | i've never tried it so i can't back that up with paperwork |
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| 07:15.13 | usicow | I'll test it out. |
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| 07:17.35 | usicow | would it be difficult to make an app with just one big ass button that when pressed runs the script I want? Are there any tutorials or HOWTO's on that? |
| 07:18.05 | adeus | hmm |
| 07:18.13 | adeus | I think it would just neet the descriptor file |
| 07:18.21 | adeus | need |
| 07:18.38 | qtomu | @All: I am getting the message "dpkg: status database area is locked by another process" when trying to install debian package on device using ESBox; I have tried the googled solutions but none of them works... does anyone has any idea... how to fix it? |
| 07:29.29 | timeless_mbp | there's a 'lock' file |
| 07:29.42 | timeless_mbp | you could delete it, although you should verify the thing that created it isn't runnning |
| 07:32.20 | thux | OT i red that iphone got some sms hole? what kind of are those sms holes in generally, some string inside sms or totally something else? (just curious) |
| 07:47.35 | ShadowJK | probably |
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| 07:48.32 | ShadowJK | OTA provisioning and all that, if iphone supports it |
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| 07:49.33 | thux | ok |
| 07:50.26 | thux | many times stories like that http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=hardware&articleId=9135090&taxonomyId=12&intsrc=kc_top |
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| 07:51.36 | thux | but they don't tell step by step how to hole works |
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| 07:57.51 | ShadowJK | white-hat security researchers traditionally do not release details until after the vendor has fixed and distributed the fix |
| 07:58.28 | ShadowJK | Not that iphone follows specs very closely, but there's a standard for sending SMS messages containing data or links to software, ringtones, etc |
| 07:58.55 | ShadowJK | So it could just be as simple that if you send sms to iphone with link to software, it automatically installs without confirmation :) |
| 07:58.58 | ShadowJK | or something |
| 07:59.07 | ShadowJK | but that's the kind of incompetence I'd expect from corporations, so.. |
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| 08:20.35 | Jaffa | Morning, all |
| 08:27.00 | lbt | morning |
| 08:27.12 | RST38h | Shadow: iPhone does not install anything automatically |
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| 08:27.37 | RST38h | In fact, auto-installing software is outside of the SMS standard scope |
| 08:27.43 | RST38h | It only covers links |
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| 09:27.10 | florian | good morning |
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| 10:01.28 | thopiekar | moin flo' |
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| 11:26.01 | tbf | adeus: i don't see a bug report about libosso-abook vs. C++ on bugs.maemo.org yet ;-) |
| 11:28.48 | adeus | :P |
| 11:29.25 | adeus | Now I'm trying to retrieve the data via the evolution dbus api and failing at that as well |
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| 12:00.47 | tbf | adeus: as i told you, the dbus API is neither documented nor meant to remain stable |
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| 12:01.45 | tbf | adeus: Qt has optional glib main loop integration since 4.2, and I'd wonder if the maemo build doesn't have this feature enabled |
| 12:08.02 | dopper | what's the name of the application that stores xterm commands so they can be clicked from a menu similar to personal menu? I reconfigured my tablet and can't find it in the repositories. |
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| 13:42.18 | Jcdjs_427 | Hi, i'm a nokia 770 user. I'am a proble when use the Penguinbait deb files... The Tablet view a message erroe: The application could be not installed. Is needed to add the components?. My tablet is a Nokia 770 winth OS 2008HE. Thanks in advance. Jcdjs |
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| 14:01.10 | pupnik | odd. i see no 'camera' icon under the n810 menus |
| 14:01.16 | pupnik | but i can run 'camera' from command line |
| 14:02.22 | pupnik | where does camera store the pics? |
| 14:02.58 | RST38h | pupnik: Utilities |
| 14:03.16 | pupnik | heh odd, not here |
| 14:03.17 | RST38h | Saves to MyDocs/Images or something like that |
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| 14:03.23 | pupnik | as png or jpg? |
| 14:03.25 | VDVsx | pupnik, in home, (in the hiden folders) |
| 14:03.33 | RST38h | Don't remember, probably jpg |
| 14:03.36 | pupnik | camera says 645 pics stored, but i can't "find" them |
| 14:04.17 | timeless_mbp | MyDocs/.images/ |
| 14:04.48 | pupnik | interesting ty |
| 14:06.47 | pupnik | camera says 645 images taken, but i just cleared the directory |
| 14:07.31 | qwerty12_N810 | It may be an indicator of how many images you can take |
| 14:07.54 | pupnik | ohh |
| 14:08.16 | pupnik | k it works |
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| 14:10.02 | johnsq | Hi |
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| 14:27.16 | pupnik | hi |
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| 15:04.43 | RST38h | yawns widely |
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| 15:48.58 | xnt14 | wakes up |
| 15:49.23 | xnt14 | stares at the long list of server messages on his irc window |
| 15:49.50 | xnt14 | ~seen b-man16 |
| 15:49.52 | infobot | b-man16 <n=b-man16@cpe-98-30-195-117.woh.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 3h 12m 29s ago, saying: 'hello'. |
| 15:49.55 | xnt14 | lol |
| 15:50.14 | xnt14 | shuts up and gets back to work on xceleo network 1.0 |
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| 17:50.11 | johnsq | Re |
| 17:50.41 | pupnik | moo |
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| 18:02.19 | RST38h | Climate change is causing a breed of wild sheep in Scotland to shrink, according to research! |
| 18:03.45 | guysoft42 | hi hi. |
| 18:04.11 | guysoft42 | RST38h, did you seek xkcds extrapolation comic today? |
| 18:04.12 | mavhc | RST38h: no cause and effect has been proven, perhaps the sheep are causing global warming by shrinking</denier> |
| 18:05.21 | GAN800 | All more politics than science sadly. |
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| 18:05.42 | guysoft42 | GAN800, true.. i just had a lecture by Nir Shaviv a month ago |
| 18:05.53 | pupnik | ? |
| 18:05.59 | guysoft42 | he has a alternate thorey to global worming |
| 18:06.11 | guysoft42 | theory* |
| 18:06.30 | guysoft42 | he says its gamma-rays realted |
| 18:06.53 | mavhc | and his evidence? |
| 18:07.07 | guysoft42 | no matter if he is right, but i do agree physics should debate this, and not politicisations |
| 18:07.19 | mavhc | they did, years ago |
| 18:07.54 | guysoft42 | he showed us a lot of data.. I guess the main evidence is correlation between the gamma ray deposits we find on earth and the weather |
| 18:08.15 | guysoft42 | and he says that CO2 is in indirect correlation |
| 18:08.45 | RST38h | guysoft: No, I do not read this stuff... |
| 18:08.47 | guysoft42 | he says there is a 400 year delay between the CO2 and warming.. |
| 18:08.49 | mavhc | but the increase in co2 recently is from fossil fuels |
| 18:09.06 | RST38h | mavhc: Dunno, although British Scientists (tm) have been duly noted |
| 18:10.01 | guysoft42 | the real truth is that all climate models have a too big error margin, there are too many parameters |
| 18:10.19 | RST38h | guysoft: This is too general statement |
| 18:10.19 | mavhc | and pollution is bad |
| 18:11.05 | RST38h | guysoft: More precise is "Global climate models that deal with temperature changes do not allow to predict long range (50+ years) well enough to make decisions" |
| 18:11.34 | mavhc | it's simple really, humans make co2, co2 causes warming |
| 18:11.47 | RST38h | guysoft: That actually also changes lately and as far as I remember most scientists do agree that the world gets hotter |
| 18:12.10 | mavhc | we should use more ARM devices, less x86 |
| 18:12.11 | RST38h | mavhc: Not as simple as that |
| 18:12.32 | RST38h | mavhc: In addition to CO2 there is methane and freons |
| 18:12.40 | guysoft42 | mavhc, i too believe in green power, but i do think that there is no evidence for your claim |
| 18:12.40 | auntieNeo | personally, I think this whole climate thing is blown out of proportions |
| 18:12.48 | mavhc | which claim, I made 2 |
| 18:12.49 | RST38h | And a bunch of other gases that cause atmospheric changes, directly or not |
| 18:13.06 | guysoft42 | mavhc, that we are the cause |
| 18:13.18 | mavhc | is the co2 increase due to humans? |
| 18:13.28 | auntieNeo | certainly it's frightening for humans, but the earth has had gone through numerous events in which it was deprived of oxygen or light or CO2 |
| 18:13.28 | guysoft42 | there were higher temperatures in the middle ages.. for a start. |
| 18:13.32 | auntieNeo | and the animals adapted |
| 18:13.39 | RST38h | And here we come to the idea I have been proposing all this time: KILL ALL HUMANS! |
| 18:13.54 | mavhc | auntieNeo: noone's saying the earth is dead, just billions will die |
| 18:14.00 | guysoft42 | mavhc, as i said, it seems the CO2 is indirect. when the system warms you get CO2 anyway. it might be a side effect, not the cause |
| 18:14.01 | auntieNeo | it's only frightening to us because we havn't been here very long and we're a big change |
| 18:14.09 | auntieNeo | mavhc: I doubt all humans will die anyway :/ |
| 18:14.33 | auntieNeo | it might be crazy though ;P |
| 18:14.33 | mavhc | guysoft22: but the increase in co2 today is due to humans, we can prove that |
| 18:14.33 | pupnik | no big change. the 'hockey stick' is false data. we are recovering from a cool period |
| 18:14.33 | RST38h | auntieNeo: Depends on how hard you are trying |
| 18:14.53 | guysoft42 | mavhc, the thorey that prof Shaviv has talks about the ionization of particles in the upper atmosphere, that cause more clouds, that cool the climate |
| 18:14.56 | GAN800 | mavhc, hardly, and science should ALWAYS seek to question. As it stands, any dissent is immediately shouted down. |
| 18:15.03 | auntieNeo | I think we'll run out of gas before we kill everyone |
| 18:15.05 | GAN800 | Politics. Not science. |
| 18:15.07 | mavhc | hardly what? |
| 18:15.12 | auntieNeo | honestly, energy is a bigger and more real problem |
| 18:15.14 | pupnik | gan is riot |
| 18:15.17 | pupnik | right |
| 18:15.24 | mavhc | isotope ratios show that co2 increase is from fossil fuels, that's simple |
| 18:15.36 | GAN800 | mavhc, that the debate was settled years ago. |
| 18:15.44 | mavhc | which debate? |
| 18:15.46 | pupnik | great, my garden will grow better with more co2 |
| 18:16.05 | pupnik | this is climate improvement |
| 18:16.08 | RST38h | Reboot time. |
| 18:16.10 | auntieNeo | lol xD |
| 18:16.15 | guysoft42 | .. but us i said, we have no working model with sufficient error margin. I do find his theory interesting thaugh because it has empirical measurements |
| 18:16.19 | GAN800 | "mavhc: they did, years ago" |
| 18:16.39 | RST38h | If anybody can tell me how to make Ubuntu automounter ignore partitions it does not understand on the SD card, I would appreciate that |
| 18:16.41 | guysoft42 | and with empirical measurements, you can argue, and debate |
| 18:16.44 | mavhc | so, we know that humans are causing co2 increase |
| 18:16.55 | mavhc | and we know that co2 causes heat to be trapped |
| 18:17.01 | auntieNeo | biofuels are a bit scarey, because they burn forest just to grow crops, and then they burn it for fuel instead of feeding the billions of starving people :( |
| 18:17.02 | RST38h | The only way to verify that for sure is to KILL ALL HUMANS |
| 18:17.09 | GAN800 | Amen |
| 18:17.10 | guysoft42 | RST38h, its a pain, i think you need to look at /etc/udev/ somewhere |
| 18:17.13 | pupnik | the system is not linear, mavhc |
| 18:17.25 | GAN800 | let's start with all of the lawyers and politicians. |
| 18:17.27 | mavhc | pupnik: but you agree we know both those things? |
| 18:17.28 | auntieNeo | I agree with RST |
| 18:17.30 | RST38h | Unfortunately, there is also a question of what you do with the bodies... |
| 18:17.32 | guysoft42 | RST38h, you can also make an extra earth as a test zone |
| 18:17.32 | auntieNeo | we need skynet |
| 18:17.41 | pupnik | mavhc: co2 is an extremely weak trapper of heat. |
| 18:17.50 | mavhc | indeed |
| 18:18.16 | RST38h | guysoft: I actually like my idea better |
| 18:18.22 | GAN800 | RST38h, Water World. |
| 18:18.22 | guysoft42 | why does all geophysics ends with throwing politicians of the planet? |
| 18:18.29 | mavhc | co2 contributes 9-26% of greenhouse effect |
| 18:18.48 | auntieNeo | guysoft42: because geophysicists don't like being used by the politicians |
| 18:18.53 | RST38h | GAN: Or Dan Simmons' Earth from Ilium |
| 18:19.29 | auntieNeo | I THINK |
| 18:19.33 | auntieNeo | that the best way to remedy this |
| 18:19.42 | auntieNeo | is for the governments to stop spending so much on war |
| 18:19.45 | auntieNeo | and more on research |
| 18:19.55 | mavhc | of course the problem isn't the amount of co2 now, it's the amount it increases every year |
| 18:20.22 | pupnik | the problem is the politicians |
| 18:20.22 | GAN800 | auntieNeo, stop spending so much period. :) |
| 18:21.04 | GAN800 | Think of how much CO2 production will be reduce if all the idiots in Washington stopped spewing hot air. |
| 18:21.14 | GAN800 | s/reduce/reduced/ |
| 18:21.16 | mavhc | hmm, about 0.00000000000000000001% |
| 18:21.17 | auntieNeo | GAN800: hell, if the US spend an 8th of the defense budget on NASA, we'd have been to mars 5 times by now |
| 18:21.33 | auntieNeo | statistics courtesy my ass |
| 18:22.03 | mavhc | build a space elevator already, it's the only way to get lots of people off the planet |
| 18:22.05 | GAN800 | auntieNeo, or, instead of collecting all of those taxes it let private industry take us there. . . . |
| 18:22.07 | RST38h | auntieNeo: By the way, do you have any idea how much fuel is burnt every time NASA sends a rocket into space? |
| 18:22.16 | auntieNeo | RST38h: :( |
| 18:22.20 | auntieNeo | RST38h: moon base |
| 18:22.32 | auntieNeo | space planes |
| 18:22.46 | RST38h | teleporters |
| 18:23.02 | auntieNeo | nah, those require a shitload of electricity ;P |
| 18:23.02 | RST38h | Apple trees on Mars |
| 18:23.20 | mavhc | collect all the co2, send it to mars |
| 18:23.27 | RST38h | Instead, you will get mind control and the matrix. |
| 18:23.28 | auntieNeo | space research isn't all that important... |
| 18:23.32 | RST38h | cackles evilly |
| 18:23.33 | auntieNeo | more like energy research |
| 18:23.52 | mavhc | need to go to space just before the earth is screwed |
| 18:23.58 | auntieNeo | lol |
| 18:24.08 | mavhc | pref a while before so we can set up other planets |
| 18:24.08 | auntieNeo | it's not like there are many places to go :P |
| 18:24.20 | mavhc | teraform mars |
| 18:24.27 | auntieNeo | mmm |
| 18:24.37 | auntieNeo | teraforming will probably require a lot of research into energy efficiency |
| 18:25.15 | GAN800 | sighs at useless pain meds |
| 18:25.28 | auntieNeo | :( |
| 18:25.40 | mavhc | why doesn't pain have an overflow off switch? |
| 18:25.49 | auntieNeo | it's called shock |
| 18:26.09 | RST38h | Actually, folks, while you are making all these space plans... |
| 18:26.17 | RST38h | Why don't you consider what is really coming? |
| 18:26.24 | auntieNeo | Jesus? |
| 18:26.33 | RST38h | THAT will be later =) |
| 18:26.43 | auntieNeo | no, he died a long time ago ;) |
| 18:27.08 | RST38h | For now, you have got corporate governance, indentured servitude for people not able to pay off credit, wars for resources |
| 18:27.32 | auntieNeo | pffft, leave those problems to the politicians |
| 18:27.42 | auntieNeo | and I'll vote for the ones that aren't batshit insane |
| 18:27.47 | RST38h | Oh, the politicians will handle them real well |
| 18:27.58 | auntieNeo | :( |
| 18:29.10 | mavhc | a) who cares, b) don't get credit, c) stock up on resources |
| 18:29.24 | RST38h | Oh, I also forgot the loss of privacy, copyrights, and the political correctness gone crazy, but these are obvious |
| 18:30.07 | RST38h | mavhc: Lots of Americans do not have a choice on b), c) is also kinda impossible now |
| 18:30.34 | mavhc | what do they need credit for? |
| 18:30.36 | RST38h | a) basically means you lose last shreds of control over things |
| 18:30.49 | mavhc | noone's in control anyway |
| 18:31.14 | RST38h | mavhc: That is not a question I can answer, different mindset |
| 18:32.07 | mavhc | only answer is a house |
| 18:32.31 | mavhc | and just rent until prices drop |
| 18:32.45 | guysoft42 | auntieNeo, more than you think.. |
| 18:33.57 | mavhc | if you can't afford to rent, live with your parents |
| 18:34.20 | pupnik | "Government judge proposes outlawing linking without prior permission, to destroy Google news and other aggregators that necessarily have no government-approved gatekeepers" http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/028827.html |
| 18:34.29 | guysoft42 | mavhc, was that saying about space travel? |
| 18:34.53 | guysoft42 | pupnik, then lets all link to the article! |
| 18:35.07 | pupnik | ;) |
| 18:35.13 | guysoft42 | pupnik, with questionable content attached |
| 18:35.19 | pupnik | go for it |
| 18:35.28 | guysoft42 | it can be the next rickrolling |
| 18:35.41 | pupnik | imagine an internet with that law in place |
| 18:35.52 | mavhc | how cute, the government thinks it can control the internet |
| 18:36.41 | mavhc | there's only 2 states of internet access: everything, or enclosing a country in a faraday cage wrapped in a brick wall |
| 18:39.26 | guysoft42 | pupnik, they might get over it.. thats our job to keep it free |
| 18:39.40 | guysoft42 | with #iranelection i guess we saw the power it has |
| 18:40.28 | pupnik | hehe |
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| 18:42.54 | javispedro | obs is too hard |
| 18:43.00 | javispedro | i still like the scratchbox approach |
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| 18:43.19 | javispedro | from the user point of view of course |
| 18:44.05 | javispedro | (cause the reason that I'm looking at obs is that after triggering for the 4th time some "gcc internal error" vmware crashed) |
| 18:49.04 | *** join/#maemo brankinhu_ (n=quassel@201.56.102.13) |
| 18:58.56 | *** join/#maemo secureendpoints (i=chatzill@88.sub-75-193-241.myvzw.com) |
| 19:00.08 | RST38h | XHTML2 cancelled. Rejoice! |
| 19:03.21 | GeneralAntilles | HTML 5, XHTML 2. They both suck in their own little ways. |
| 19:03.27 | GeneralAntilles | Standards organizations suck. |
| 19:04.28 | johnsq | back to the roots, use html 1.0 |
| 19:07.09 | pupnik | listening to dahr jamail now - reporter from Iraq : http://listen.kaosradioaustin.org/kaos-64 |
| 19:07.34 | *** join/#maemo hellwolf (n=hellwolf@a213-22-69-165.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 19:08.28 | RST38h | pupnik: what is the body count today? |
| 19:11.47 | pupnik | dunno, they're talking about the IED lottery |
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| 19:29.05 | *** join/#maemo briglia (n=briglia@189.2.128.130) |
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| 19:32.28 | *** join/#maemo smackpotat1 (n=John@cheetah-tiv-ppp533.bmts.com) |
| 19:34.35 | mavhc | why does html5 suck? |
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| 19:43.57 | RST38h | it doesn't, General is just being bitter about not getting his n900 :) |
| 19:46.04 | MerkurAlex | do you guys think i would be able to get like 170$ for a like new n810 with orig box and almost all the stuff it came with on ebay? |
| 19:51.40 | Pavlov | whats the going price for new ones? |
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| 19:53.33 | *** part/#maemo jegp (n=jegp@190.2.193.222) |
| 19:54.21 | MerkurAlex | i have seen as low as 200 on ebay |
| 19:56.52 | MerkurAlex | need a new phone so im hoping i will be able to wait for the n900 as nokia devices are the only ones i am willing to pay over 400$ on |
| 19:57.35 | Jaffa | XHTML2 was braindead in many ways; but HTML5's too driven by trying to be HTML4 but better; rather than XHTML1 but better. Dropping the requirement for strictly valid XML's going to be painful. |
| 19:57.50 | *** join/#maemo riddlebox (n=user@75-132-225-75.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) |
| 19:58.29 | riddlebox | can i compile some software that i find on sourceforge? it is called roadnav |
| 19:58.40 | riddlebox | for the n810 |
| 19:58.46 | *** join/#maemo briglia (n=briglia@189.2.128.130) |
| 19:59.18 | Jaffa | riddlebox: Have you compiled anything for Linux before? |
| 19:59.31 | riddlebox | Jaffa, yup |
| 19:59.32 | *** join/#maemo L0cutus (n=kki@94.160.37.23) |
| 19:59.41 | Jaffa | riddlebox: Is Roadnav gtk+ based? |
| 19:59.54 | riddlebox | let me check |
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| 20:00.51 | Jaffa | riddlebox: Anyway, there's a porting guide on maemo.org |
| 20:01.07 | riddlebox | cool, it may use wxwidgets |
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| 20:06.23 | xnt14 | is bored as hell |
| 20:06.32 | xnt14 | notices a storm approaching |
| 20:06.49 | xnt14 | it has rained everyday here for the past week :P |
| 20:20.52 | RST38h | Jaffa: The strictly valid XML requirement is bogus to begin with |
| 20:21.17 | *** join/#maemo jakemaheu (n=chatzill@76.112.96.81) |
| 20:21.25 | jakemaheu | hello everyone |
| 20:21.29 | RST38h | Jaffa: It does prevent a few syntax mistakes, but just a few. With or without this requirement, there is still plenty of ways to fuck up |
| 20:21.40 | jakemaheu | i'm finally on for the first time in months |
| 20:22.17 | jakemaheu | have there been any useful developments |
| 20:22.23 | jakemaheu | in the time that i've been gone? |
| 20:24.18 | jakemaheu | seen solca |
| 20:24.20 | `0660_ | i thought that html5 spec defined two serialization formats (html and xhtml) |
| 20:25.52 | *** join/#maemo Sho_ (n=EHS1@kde/hein) |
| 20:26.35 | `0660_ | and i think the xhtml serialization would require strictly valid xml |
| 20:26.54 | RST38h | It does, although nobody uses strictly valid xml de facto |
| 20:27.30 | RST38h | It really isn't such a big deal, even for automated checkers |
| 20:28.32 | `0660_ | what do you mean by nobody uses de facto? :) |
| 20:28.46 | `0660_ | i know i use xhtml de facto |
| 20:29.50 | jakemaheu | my xhtml is valid-- strict |
| 20:30.37 | RST38h | 0660: If you look at the web pages on the web, in general, you won't see much xhtml |
| 20:30.55 | RST38h | Some people use it, but not everyone |
| 20:31.36 | `0660_ | that would be expected |
| 20:32.01 | johnsq | they only use javascript, html is only a container. |
| 20:33.23 | RST38h | Also not quite true |
| 20:33.31 | `0660_ | who only uses js? i'm pretty sure most web sites are mainly html :) |
| 20:33.52 | RST38h | But we will see more js because html5 makes it more useful =) |
| 20:33.55 | johnsq | than surf with disabled javascript, much fin :) |
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| 20:34.25 | RST38h | is more surprised with the choice of OGG for default video format |
| 20:34.28 | `0660_ | you try surfing with disabled html :) |
| 20:34.47 | flux | rst38h, hm, but it wasn't chosen?-o |
| 20:34.56 | `0660_ | i think ogg is great |
| 20:35.01 | RST38h | flux: it was, apparently |
| 20:35.04 | flux | hm |
| 20:35.16 | RST38h | 0660: What is "great" about it? |
| 20:35.23 | mavhc | opensource people choose ogg, commerical people choose not-ogg |
| 20:35.27 | `0660_ | i have already seen the video tag in the wild and it's beautiful |
| 20:35.45 | RST38h | Doesn't play until it loads the video completely, at least in the example I have seen |
| 20:35.49 | RST38h | Is it configurable? |
| 20:36.02 | johnsq | one more filter for squid |
| 20:36.04 | `0660_ | it's license free |
| 20:36.44 | EdLin | `0660_: it also is terrible for cheap MP3/AAC/WAV players because it requires floating point to process. |
| 20:37.12 | `0660_ | i would expect it to start playing before it loads the video completely |
| 20:37.28 | EdLin | oh, you mean OGG for video. NM |
| 20:37.38 | EdLin | everything requires FP for video |
| 20:38.21 | `0660_ | maybe the player in firefox is not complete yet? |
| 20:39.53 | EdLin | Theora isn't going to be as good as MP4 anyway, simply because alot of the good stuff is patented. |
| 20:40.34 | EdLin | MP4 is evil though, they're going to start charging royalties next year. |
| 20:41.01 | EdLin | so maybe Theora will win the format war anyway. |
| 20:41.19 | ShadowJK | What requires float? |
| 20:41.29 | EdLin | ShadowJK: Ogg/Vorbis |
| 20:41.33 | ShadowJK | It doesn't. |
| 20:41.41 | `0660_ | i happily take the almost as good option if it allows me to avoid installing third party plugins |
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| 20:42.10 | EdLin | yeah, it'd be a great improvement in performance if everything wasn't using the Netscape plug-in architecture. |
| 20:42.58 | ShadowJK | I hate plugins. They cripple the browser :-) |
| 20:43.14 | ShadowJK | Although for a short time during firefox2, plugins actually worked |
| 20:43.17 | EdLin | ShadowJK: the problem is Netscape plug-ins all have to use the browser pipeline. |
| 20:43.25 | ShadowJK | (without hanging/crashing the browser, I mean) |
| 20:44.01 | ShadowJK | anyway, I know of atleast 2 different non-float decoders for Vorbis :-) |
| 20:44.09 | EdLin | ShadowJK: cool |
| 20:45.05 | Luke-Jr | `0660_: Ogg is not license-free |
| 20:45.13 | jakemaheu | firefox seems to still choke after a while for me |
| 20:45.40 | jakemaheu | memory use goes up to 600MB+ after a few hours |
| 20:45.48 | ShadowJK | theora and vorbis aren't patent free either, not that anyone cares |
| 20:45.54 | ShadowJK | (except legal departments of companies) |
| 20:46.11 | `0660_ | luke, who sells licenses for it? |
| 20:46.20 | jakemaheu | whether i'm using pandora or browsing 4chan, memory use seems to shoot up and never come back down |
| 20:46.41 | mavhc | pandora is flash player leaking |
| 20:46.44 | Jaffa | RST38h: Ogg has *not* been chosen as the default video container (and neither Theora for the default video codec). The HTML5 spec has had _withdrawn_ any codec requirements. |
| 20:47.07 | Jaffa | No agreement could be reached with the browser vendors, so no standard defined. (As happened with images years ago) |
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| 20:47.58 | EdLin | Jaffa: I wonder if MS wanted WMV files with Zune DRM? ;-) |
| 20:48.12 | mavhc | it's not been chosen, it's been coded as the default by firefox and chrome |
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| 20:48.26 | ShadowJK | reality becomes then that you can encode once to h264+aac in .mp4, and flash player will play it, and also google chrome in html5 :-) |
| 20:48.50 | RST38h | Jaffa: Well, it looks like at least FireFox 3.5 assumes OGG when media type attribute is not presentr |
| 20:48.55 | Jaffa | mavhc: In that Firefox, Chrome and Opera are the only 3 browsers out of the big 5 which'll support it. |
| 20:48.59 | *** join/#maemo Luke-Jr (n=luke-jr@2002:46bb:1a76:0:20e:a6ff:fec4:4e5d) |
| 20:49.19 | mavhc | and what codecs do they each support? |
| 20:49.19 | ShadowJK | Assuming anything is probably unwise |
| 20:49.50 | RST38h | Jaffa: BTW, you probably know that, does FireFox include ffmpeg now or have they dropped it under public pressure from "open source advocates"? |
| 20:49.54 | Jaffa | mavhc: Opera & Firefox & Chromium: Theora only. Chrome: Theora & H264. Safari: H264 only. IEx: who knows |
| 20:50.04 | Jaffa | RST38h: Dunno, sorry. |
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| 20:51.19 | RST38h | Jaffa: So, OGG *is* a de facto standard now? |
| 20:51.20 | mavhc | but didn't you see the chart, IE8 is the most standard compliant browser that's the most secure and the best, I heard it from a guy down the pub named Bill |
| 20:52.05 | Jaffa | RST38h: In about 30% of the browsers yes. But if you want to reach 50% you need H264 & Ogg. And if you want >90% you need H264, Ogg & Flash. |
| 20:52.18 | Luke-Jr | `0660_: nobody sells licenses, they're gratis |
| 20:52.34 | RST38h | Jaffa: I would rather adjust these percentages wrt market penetration :) |
| 20:52.41 | Jaffa | RST38h: :) |
| 20:52.55 | Luke-Jr | `0660_: but Ogg is patented and all implementations copyrighted |
| 20:52.57 | RST38h | Jaffa: i.e. drop Opera and Chromium :) |
| 20:53.02 | mavhc | really? safari has 8% market share? seems unlikely |
| 20:53.17 | RST38h | mavhc: I will tell you in a moment |
| 20:53.18 | ShadowJK | Luke-Jr, if the implementation has been written within last 50 years, it's copyrighted, of course ;) |
| 20:53.20 | Jaffa | mavhc: I was going OTTOMH. |
| 20:53.37 | mavhc | I'm reading wp |
| 20:53.40 | Luke-Jr | ShadowJK: that alone is not a given; many countries allow the holder to release it from copyright |
| 20:53.59 | ShadowJK | mm |
| 20:54.02 | mavhc | is ogg patented? |
| 20:54.09 | Luke-Jr | mavhc: parts of it, at least |
| 20:54.21 | Luke-Jr | the patent holder licenses it gratis, IIRC |
| 20:54.29 | mavhc | xiph doesn't own patents anyway |
| 20:54.33 | RST38h | FireFox: 45% |
| 20:54.39 | RST38h | IE: 38.5% |
| 20:54.45 | RST38h | Chrome: 5.4% |
| 20:54.47 | ShadowJK | flash: 90% ;) |
| 20:54.51 | RST38h | Opera: 4.6% |
| 20:54.57 | RST38h | Safari: 3.87% |
| 20:55.08 | RST38h | The rest is insignificant |
| 20:55.17 | Jaffa | RST38h: Is that on your own site? |
| 20:55.18 | Luke-Jr | fail |
| 20:55.25 | derf | ShadowJK: Browsers with working JVM's: 80% |
| 20:55.57 | mavhc | derf: as java isn't in windows now, unlikely |
| 20:55.58 | RST38h | So, stop at Chrome and you are done |
| 20:56.09 | ShadowJK | I have a browser with working jvm. Unfortunately, while the JVM works, it hangs the browser. It's facepalm-tastic. |
| 20:56.11 | RST38h | Jaffa: Yes, but as I serve multiplatform stuff, it is pretty representative |
| 20:56.19 | GeneralAntilles | RST38h, bullshit. |
| 20:56.21 | RST38h | derf: JVM? A moment |
| 20:56.46 | Jaffa | mavhc: Sun've done deals with the PC manufacturers. They don't need to get MS to ship Java: Dell, Lenovo, HP, Toshiba all do through bundle deals. |
| 20:57.03 | derf | That number is based on Wikipedia statistics (they use a Java applet to serve Theora as a fallback). |
| 20:57.05 | RST38h | derf: Java supported by 83.86% of clients over here |
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| 20:57.18 | RST38h | derf: So,yes, Wiki is kinda right there |
| 20:57.41 | mavhc | I had a machine where going to a java page would quit IE |
| 20:57.56 | derf | Right, Wikipedia's number is "% of clients who successfully streamed a file with Java". |
| 20:58.01 | RST38h | General: [smiling sadistically] Macintosh - 3.98% of users =)~~ |
| 20:58.17 | RST38h | General: Linux - 6.91% |
| 20:58.28 | GeneralAntilles | RST38h, statistics fail. |
| 20:58.28 | derf | And I don't have the exact number. |
| 20:58.56 | RST38h | General: they do, sometimes. |
| 20:59.07 | GeneralAntilles | RST38h, yes, yours do right here. |
| 20:59.15 | derf | But the point is, for "video in a box", Theora can get pretty close to Flash's browser penetration, right now, without installing anything on clients. |
| 20:59.30 | RST38h | So the stuff I am quoting is probably off by 5-10% but as you may have noticed it changes nothing |
| 20:59.49 | mavhc | well, it's only in firefox, chrome's video's still beta/alpha |
| 21:00.06 | derf | mavhc: I don't even think you're listening. |
| 21:00.21 | Jaffa | YouTube's going to use <video>, but only with H264 as - apparently - Theora's not good enough quality at a given bitrate. |
| 21:00.28 | GeneralAntilles | derf, a common practice in this channel. |
| 21:01.10 | RST38h | cringes every time he sees Theora mentioned |
| 21:02.09 | RST38h | Is this BBC article related to the topic in any way: "Shoppers Burnt By Giant Chrome Balls" ? =) |
| 21:02.23 | mavhc | oh, you're on about java |
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| 21:02.40 | mavhc | is that just audio or video too? |
| 21:02.57 | derf | RST38h: Considering someone is usually saying something inaccurate or misleading, I often do, too. |
| 21:03.15 | derf | For example, Jaffa about YouTube. |
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| 21:08.15 | Jaffa | derf: In what way was what I said inaccurate or misleading? |
| 21:08.49 | RST38h | Folks, it looks weird when you argue about some stupid Youtube media player |
| 21:08.52 | Jaffa | derf: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-June/020620.html |
| 21:09.09 | RST38h | Believe me it DOES NOT MATTER how Youtube plays videos. |
| 21:09.22 | derf | Jaffa: a) Chris DiBona talking out of his ass is not an official position of Google (they have not made an official position, publicly, about what they will or won't do) and b) http://people.xiph.org/~greg/video/ytcompare/comparison.html |
| 21:09.31 | mavhc | http://www.youtube.com/html5 |
| 21:10.17 | Jaffa | "Google [...] have indicated a belief that Ogg Theora's quality-per-bit is not yet suitable for the volume handled by YouTube" |
| 21:10.35 | derf | Yes. I belive that statement is inaccurate also, and it is unfortunate that it is in the current draft. |
| 21:11.14 | mavhc | does this xiph ogg4quicktime thing make safari support ogg? |
| 21:11.48 | ShadowJK | That's a pretty damning condemnation from google, considering google is currently using one of the worst h264 encoders in existence :-) |
| 21:11.49 | RST38h | Quicktime. Puke. |
| 21:12.09 | RST38h | ShadowJK: Well, the have got lowest bitrates :) |
| 21:12.17 | derf | mavhc: Yes. |
| 21:12.19 | Jaffa | derf: I don't care one jot whether Theora is a good codec or not. So whether the technical accuracy is there or not, there have been indications from Google - and the current /html5 posted by mavhc also does this - that they aren't going to use Ogg on YouTube's <video> tags due to bandwidth concerns. |
| 21:12.19 | Luke-Jr | lol |
| 21:12.22 | RST38h | ShadowJK: At which Theora probably sucks royally |
| 21:12.46 | Jaffa | Google have bandwidth concerns about Theora. This is accurate. Whether or not they are right to do so has no bearing on me being "inaccurate or misleading". |
| 21:13.05 | mavhc | also they don't want to reencode 18 billion hours of video again, with a slow encoder |
| 21:13.14 | ShadowJK | RST38h, yes well, you can make any codec look good by tweaking an encoder for higher bitrates and using extreme bitrates :-) |
| 21:13.23 | RST38h | Ok, found info on Firefox 3.5 codecs. FireFox only supports OGG |
| 21:13.28 | mavhc | youtube/html5 doesn't work in chrome 2 |
| 21:13.40 | ShadowJK | The crappy h264 encoder they use is probably blazing fast, yeah |
| 21:14.25 | derf | Jaffa: You may wish to keep reading further in that thread, specifically to http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-July/020701.html |
| 21:14.56 | RST38h | ShadowJK: I personally do not see the point in YouTube videos |
| 21:15.10 | RST38h | ShadowJK: So whatever their quality is, I am unlikely to watch them |
| 21:15.18 | derf | And I'm not accusing _you_ of intentionally deceiving people. You're simply repeating what has been said elsewhere. That doesn't make it more accurate or less misleading. |
| 21:15.28 | ShadowJK | I personally don't see the point in putting all this in the browser anyway :-) |
| 21:15.45 | mavhc | browser should be text only, images handled by image viewer |
| 21:15.49 | mavhc | like in the good old days |
| 21:15.50 | ShadowJK | where by browser I mean html or through plugins.. |
| 21:15.59 | derf | Just like I don't think cdibona talking out of his ass was malicious. It's just what he does. |
| 21:16.07 | ShadowJK | Certainly on N8x0 you're better off using image viewer :-) |
| 21:16.22 | RST38h | ShadowJK: Sure about it? =) |
| 21:16.35 | ShadowJK | The browser consumes huge amounts of ram to display an image |
| 21:16.49 | RST38h | ShadowJKL N8x0 image viewer can be easily crashed by a normally sized image from a modern digicam |
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| 21:16.55 | derf | mavhc: There's a page somewhere that demos Ogg support in lynx. |
| 21:16.57 | mavhc | keep them as jpeg in ram, decompress on the fly |
| 21:17.02 | ShadowJK | I've never seen it crash |
| 21:17.11 | ShadowJK | even with large images |
| 21:17.15 | RST38h | ShadowJK: Have swap enabled? |
| 21:17.18 | ShadowJK | yep |
| 21:17.23 | RST38h | That's why. |
| 21:17.34 | ShadowJK | well it doesn't crash, it runs out of memory :-) |
| 21:17.42 | ShadowJK | but the browser consumes even more for the same task |
| 21:18.18 | ShadowJK | dunno how quiver is on memory consumption, but atleast it doesn't stall on IO/CPU constantly :-) |
| 21:18.38 | RST38h | recently found 5 copies of browserd happily hanging in memory |
| 21:19.20 | ShadowJK | It's nice, it thumbnails the directory in the background when you're looking at a picture, when you tap next picture it scales up a thumbnail, then it seems to load the full picture and do a low-quality scaling of it, then it does high quality scale |
| 21:19.28 | RST38h | Maybe I should just stop trying to use MicroB... I quit on Modest and it felt good. Getting rid of MicroB should feel even better |
| 21:19.36 | ShadowJK | the picture emerges fast, and then the quality is refined |
| 21:19.49 | RST38h | Should try quiver... |
| 21:20.02 | ShadowJK | Well Tear is fast, except it doesn't work on some pages, and it eats more memory than browserd |
| 21:20.09 | ShadowJK | it's just more.. gradual about memory use |
| 21:20.12 | derf | RST38h: Wait, you _started_ using modest? |
| 21:20.14 | mavhc | I just want an easy way to install apps to mmc |
| 21:20.22 | RST38h | Shadow: As long as I can kill it, it is fine |
| 21:20.29 | mavhc | what do you use instead of modest? |
| 21:20.30 | ShadowJK | whereas browserd might suddenly decide it needs 20 meg more, and then releases it after rummaging through it awhile |
| 21:20.35 | RST38h | derf: Well I have been trying for a long while, even filed bugs |
| 21:20.47 | RST38h | derf: That was probably stupid of me :( |
| 21:20.53 | RST38h | mavhc: Claws |
| 21:21.11 | derf | I tried claws. It uses too much memory. |
| 21:21.15 | RST38h | derf: it is ok. |
| 21:21.34 | derf | It was okay until it tried to check for new mail. Then it just started swapping forever. |
| 21:21.43 | mavhc | I only use modest to alert me to new mail and sometimes read new mail |
| 21:21.48 | RST38h | derf: you probably got lots of email :) |
| 21:21.54 | mavhc | with gmail imap |
| 21:21.54 | derf | RST38h: A little bit, yeah. |
| 21:21.57 | RST38h | mavhc: it does not do even THAT for me |
| 21:22.10 | ShadowJK | I don't use any email on cellphone or tablet... or on any computer but my home computer :/ |
| 21:22.19 | ShadowJK | My email setup isn't very well suited for it :\ |
| 21:22.23 | *** join/#maemo romullo (n=romulo@189.71.55.87) |
| 21:22.23 | RST38h | mavhc: unstable wifi connection often puts it into some weird hung state |
| 21:22.33 | derf | Anyway, I just use webmail. |
| 21:22.45 | RST38h | uses SSH |
| 21:22.47 | derf | Slow, cumbersome, but it works, which is more than I can say for the alternatives. |
| 21:22.58 | RST38h | + PINE |
| 21:23.04 | *** join/#maemo Luke-Jr (n=luke-jr@2002:46bb:1a76:0:20e:a6ff:fec4:4e5d) |
| 21:23.29 | ShadowJK | oh, ssh+mutt would work for me :-) |
| 21:23.41 | RST38h | Ok, sleep time. |
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| 21:33.09 | mavhc | so safari just sends <video> to quicktime, but other browsers don't use OS video codecs, directshow etc? |
| 21:33.27 | mavhc | what about safari on windows without quicktime? |
| 21:33.47 | derf | Safari does not "just" send <video> to Quicktime. It actively disables large portions of Quicktime for security reasons. |
| 21:34.39 | ShadowJK | IE would probably use OS codecs |
| 21:34.51 | mavhc | pity it doesn't do that for everyone |
| 21:34.53 | ShadowJK | firefox and chrome probably don't have that luxury |
| 21:35.16 | derf | Right. Because IE wants to make sure your box is rooted. |
| 21:35.55 | mavhc | what's the linux version of directshow? |
| 21:36.00 | derf | gstreamer |
| 21:36.01 | ShadowJK | There is none |
| 21:36.23 | ShadowJK | on windows about the only thing that doesn't use OS codecs is vlc.. |
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| 21:45.04 | RichiH | is it normal for a n810 with maemo 2008.5 to become _really_ slow, unstable and hang frequently when you filled almost all of the internal storage? |
| 21:46.29 | ShadowJK | yes |
| 21:46.52 | ShadowJK | jffs2 doesn't like getting full |
| 21:46.55 | ShadowJK | needs breathing room |
| 21:47.54 | GeneralAntilles | RichiH, consider: |
| 21:47.56 | GeneralAntilles | ~boot-sd |
| 21:47.57 | infobot | methinks boot-sd is https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card |
| 21:48.25 | RichiH | how much space should i leave free? |
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| 21:49.41 | RichiH | on the internal storage, that is |
| 21:49.58 | RichiH | unfortunately, i do not have any mini SD cards, just micro & normal |
| 21:50.47 | ShadowJK | i'm using micro in mine... with micro to mini adapter |
| 21:51.10 | ShadowJK | I noticed slowness to boot at 15 meg free once :) |
| 21:51.29 | mavhc | noone sells mini now |
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| 22:55.23 | xnt14 | http://xceleo.org/network/ :) |
| 22:55.27 | xnt14 | ~seen b-man16 |
| 22:55.31 | infobot | b-man16 <n=b-man16@cpe-98-30-195-117.woh.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 10h 18m 8s ago, saying: 'hello'. |
| 22:55.41 | xnt14 | argh where the hell is he :P |
| 22:56.52 | xnt14 | btw luke-jr, since you hate flash, http://processingjs.org/ :) |
| 22:57.09 | xnt14 | ill tell b-man to rewrite his gallery with it |
| 22:57.12 | xnt14 | or ill rewrite it |
| 23:07.40 | mavhc | with processingjs you not longer have to kill flash to stop high cpu usage, you have to kill the whole page! |
| 23:08.23 | Luke-Jr | or click the Stop button |
| 23:11.15 | xnt14 | lol |
| 23:12.44 | xnt14 | http://xceleo.org/proto/processing/ |
| 23:12.52 | xnt14 | dont open that page on the nit |
| 23:12.55 | xnt14 | too slow :P |
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| 23:52.30 | xnt14 | eats dinner | brb |