IRC log for #maemo on 20090626

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04:54.39RST38hmoo all
05:01.07RST38hHmm... -1 Michael Jackson
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05:13.21DavidePalmWhat does the maemo-cplusplus-device-env package provide? does anyone use it?
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05:15.26RST38hit lets you compile c++ programs on the device
05:15.56DavidePalmRST38h that's what I'm trying to do but how do you use it?
05:16.00DavidePalmthrough command line?
05:16.17RST38hyes
05:16.32DavidePalmwhat are the commands what's the editor etc...
05:16.47RST38h"Jonathan Heiliger, Facebook's VP of technical operations, told Om Malik that the latest generations of server processors from Intel and AMD don't deliver the performance gains that 'they're touting in the press."
05:17.26derfMarketing people exaggerate?! Shocking!
05:17.44RST38hderf: In this particular case, it looks like they have just got shitty programmers
05:17.55DavidePalmRST38h where can I find more info about that? what commands to use etc?
05:17.56Pavlovi for one am shocked
05:17.59derfI'd believe that, too.
05:18.06derfBut most programmers are shitty.
05:18.06RST38hDavide: Google.
05:18.16DavidePalm:( search for what? been trying for a couple days
05:18.35RST38hderf: Still, if you are running a company of this size, you should at least be able to hire a few people who can profile code
05:18.47RST38hDavide: "how to use gcc"
05:19.16DavidePalmbut I dont get gcc with that
05:19.29RST38hYou don't?
05:19.36DavidePalmno sigh
05:19.52DavidePalmI've been trying to install GC on my nit for a while... cant find it or install it...
05:20.01rm_youDavidePalm: it's really close to a standard debian system... install gcc/g++ or compile them for the device in scratchbox if the don't exist (but i know they do)
05:20.04DavidePalmcan it be done on a regular installation of OS 2008?
05:20.27rm_youyes
05:20.32DavidePalmrm_you do you have that running? do you have gcc and g++?
05:20.40rm_yougcc
05:20.41rm_yousec
05:20.45RST38hrm_you: He says maemo-cplusplus-device-env does not include gcc executable
05:21.13DavidePalmRST38h maybe I just dont know how to use it... should the gcc command be available in the terminal or does it have to be typed a certain way?
05:21.20DavidePalmI can use it on my ubuntu installation but not on maemo
05:21.25DavidePalmgcc that is
05:21.30RST38hDavide: gcc and g++ commands should be available in the terminal
05:21.31DavidePalmubuntu on my desktop that is
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05:21.50rm_yougcc package is available at least in chinook repos... you can grab the deb from there
05:21.53rm_youshould be in diablo too
05:22.36DavidePalmrm_you I tried, went directly to http://repository.meamo.org
05:22.45DavidePalmand followed through to gcc-3.4
05:22.50DavidePalmor whatever the file is...
05:22.58DavidePalmand tried to install, and it says incompatible version
05:23.13RST38hWhat OS are you running?
05:23.18RST38hon the tablet that is
05:23.22DavidePalmOS 2008
05:23.25RST38hok
05:23.26rm_youthese: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/g/gcc-3.4/ ?
05:23.26DavidePalmlatest one I guess
05:23.34DavidePalmyup thats exactly where I went
05:23.38DavidePalmhang on let me try again
05:23.43rm_youjust use apt-get
05:23.46DavidePalmand I'll tell you what it says... I"m rebooting just a sec
05:23.57rm_youapt-get install g++
05:24.18RST38hgcc too
05:24.21DavidePalmwait so how do I add that repository before running apt-get?
05:24.25DavidePalmforgot the command
05:24.27RST38hyes.
05:24.35RST38hGo to app manager and add it there
05:24.39rm_youvim /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon something
05:24.51DavidePalmjust add http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/g/gcc-3.4/
05:24.52rm_youhit tab at the end
05:24.56rm_youno
05:24.57DavidePalmor just repository.maemo.org
05:24.59rm_youthat's the base repo
05:25.01rm_youit's in there
05:25.04rm_youdon't add it
05:25.11DavidePalmso just click to it and install?
05:25.14rm_youno
05:25.16rm_youopen a terminal
05:25.26rm_youget root
05:25.29DavidePalmok
05:25.32rm_youand then use apt-get
05:25.40rm_youapt-get install g++
05:26.10DavidePalm"Couldn't find package g"
05:26.40DavidePalmrm_you do you have os 2008 as well?
05:29.42RST38hDavide: apt-get install gcc
05:29.46rm_youahh
05:29.50rm_youno it's in the sdk repo
05:29.54rm_youso you do need to add a line
05:29.58rm_youit's this:
05:30.10rm_youoh dear god
05:30.28rm_youwell i was going to read you the line but my tablet appears to have morphed into a zebra >_>
05:30.32rm_youthis can't be good
05:30.52DavidePalmlol
05:31.19rm_youmy screen is now a series of vertical thin black, grey and white lines
05:31.24rm_youtime to pull the battery
05:31.35DavidePalm:(
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05:31.41DavidePalmgl
05:32.06rm_youok well it appears to boot?
05:32.08Stskeepsrm_you: mer on internal flash?
05:32.12rm_yousec and i'll get you that line
05:32.13rm_youyes
05:32.19rm_youerr
05:32.20rm_youno
05:32.23rm_youwell
05:32.25rm_youno
05:32.34rm_yousorry took me a sec to parse, it's late here :P
05:32.43Stskeepsi've seen that problem on maemo too though
05:32.43rm_youinternal SD on n800, not on flash :)
05:32.56rm_youthis is maemo :(
05:33.22Stskeepsi'd install bootmenu with usb telnet before your screen eventually dies :P
05:34.02rm_youdeb http://repository.maemo.org/ diablo/sdk free non-free
05:34.27rm_youadd that to the end of your /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list
05:34.39rm_youthen apt-get update
05:34.42rm_youand apt-get install gcc
05:34.43DavidePalmwait ok I'm on the flash card right now I boot from internal flash
05:34.54DavidePalmis that the problem?
05:35.08rm_youwell i gotta go to sleep so i can drive four three hours in the morning, but good luck
05:35.09rm_youerr, no?
05:35.25rm_youjust add that line to the sources.list file and update and install gcc
05:35.33rm_youyou familiar with apt?
05:35.49DavidePalmso so
05:35.52DavidePalmkinda new
05:35.57rm_youwell, you should be fine
05:36.02rm_youthe important note is the repository
05:36.07DavidePalmapt-cache search does what?
05:36.12rm_yousearches
05:36.15rm_you:)
05:36.26DavidePalmapt-cache search gcc gives me "gcc-3.4-base..."
05:36.30DavidePalmdoes that mean I have it?
05:36.32rm_youno
05:36.39DavidePalmok
05:36.40rm_youit's searching the entire installable package database
05:36.43DavidePalmah
05:36.46rm_youapt-cache policy
05:36.49rm_youis what you want
05:36.58rm_youwill tell you if it is installed, if so what version, and from wherre
05:37.29DavidePalmInstalled (none)
05:37.29rm_youanywho, good luck, people should be able to help you from here
05:37.43rm_youonce you've added that line, just do this:
05:37.46rm_youapt-get update
05:37.49rm_youapt-get install gcc
05:37.53rm_youthen gcc will be installed :)
05:38.13DavidePalmok ty rm_you I'm gonna try right now
05:38.17rm_youkk
05:38.49rm_yoube somewhat careful installing stuff from the sdk repo... it works, and a few people do it on device, but be prepared for possibly at some point something bad happening :P
05:38.55rm_youit's just not "recommended"
05:39.14DavidePalmok
05:39.14rm_youbut if all you want is gcc it should be fine
05:39.22DavidePalmya thats all
05:39.23rm_youjust don't go installing the whole thing :P
05:39.26rm_yousleeps
05:39.35DavidePalmI'm taking an intro C class, and just want a simple compiler for small console apps
05:40.36rm_youlast note: my intro C class was "we need an applet for our tablet that changes the backlight. make it work!" and it was far more effective than the class i had in college :P
05:40.45DavidePalmrm_you <3 <3 <3
05:41.23DavidePalmyou know I had tried that before... and the mistake I made was... I only kept putting "Diablo" in the distribution... never included the "sdk"
05:41.38DavidePalmI guess that made it inaccessible
05:41.47DavidePalmanyhow it works thanks so much rm_you it's installing right now :P
05:41.56rm_you:)
05:42.20DavidePalmheh I was so desperate, trying to get this for a few days now haha
05:42.23rm_youhey yeah, i made the same mistake at first, although it only took me about 30 seconds to figure out what went wrong... but i've been doing this for like 10 years, lol
05:42.28DavidePalmand it was such a stupid mistake
05:42.39DavidePalmyeah I'm just learning :P
05:42.52rm_yougotta start somewhere :)
05:42.53DavidePalmnot a linux person
05:42.54DavidePalmya
05:42.55rm_youreally sleeps
05:43.09DavidePalmso g++ is an IDE?
05:43.27rm_youno, it literally just compiles a .cpp file
05:43.32rm_youreally will sleep eventually
05:43.37rm_youyou just use a text editor
05:43.43DavidePalmoh I downloade geany
05:43.52rm_younever heard of it
05:43.53rm_youmight work
05:43.55rm_youno clue
05:43.55DavidePalmbut on the N800 I use the matchbox keyboard for it which is kind of annoying...
05:44.11DavidePalmis there any editor other then regular notes or something?
05:44.15rm_youvim
05:44.16DavidePalman C editor?
05:44.20rm_youvim?
05:44.22DavidePalmvim? just apt-get install vim?
05:44.27rm_youmaybe
05:44.33DavidePalmok i'll look into it
05:44.35DavidePalmgo to sleep :P
05:44.37DavidePalmthanks
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05:44.43rm_youthere's like three different versions of vim out there in a few repositories, with semi-broken versioning
05:44.48rm_youand some of them work right and some dont
05:44.59DavidePalmI've used pico before is it sorta like that?
05:45.01rm_youViM is a standard editor... with lots of complicated-ness involved
05:45.12rm_yousort of, except you'll be pulling out your hair for the first few months
05:45.16DavidePalmLOL
05:45.17rm_youbut after that it's great :P
05:45.28rm_yougo download and print the cheatsheat
05:46.02rm_youhttp://www.viemu.com/vi-vim-cheat-sheet.gif
05:46.23rm_youi'
05:46.48oespirit<3 vim
05:46.50rm_youi've been using ViM for about 7 years and i know just about what half of those keys do :P
05:46.58rm_youwell maybe 3/4
05:47.06DavidePalmI've used vi before and almost did hang myself.. I guess it comes from that?
05:47.11rm_youyes
05:47.13rm_youbut better
05:47.16DavidePalmew
05:47.16DavidePalmok
05:47.18DavidePalmgotcha
05:47.18rm_youVi iMproved
05:47.29rm_youor something like that
05:47.31rm_youanywho
05:47.34DavidePalmguess it'd be good to learn it :P
05:47.36rm_youreally really sleeps for real
05:47.54rm_youglares at a channel full of bad influences
05:48.07ShadowJKquiver is awesome
05:48.29DavidePalmwhat's that Shadow_M?
05:48.31DavidePalmeditor?
05:48.40ShadowJKno, image viewer
05:49.16DavidePalmoh
05:49.55ShadowJKlike, I was looking at the list of image viewers wondering why there has to be so many
05:50.08ShadowJKand can't there be one that's, well tolerable
05:50.18ukkiDavidePalm: there should be nano if you are used to pico
05:50.42DavidePalmukki oh yeah? should be available through apt-get?
05:50.54ukkicheck with apt-cache search nano
05:51.34DavidePalmdoesnt return anything
05:52.06ShadowJKI don't think I knew the concept of "good image viewer" before, it's like I had been searching for a new sharp chisel to go with my stone tablets and someone gave me a word processor
05:53.14ShadowJKit's so rare these days that I find software that truly impresses me I had to tell atleast this chan :)
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05:54.13ShadowJKit /feels/ faster on n8x0 than what I was using on core2quad :>
05:55.24DavidePalmlol
05:56.50ukkiDavidePalm: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1.1/free/n/nano/
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06:10.03DavidePalmah thanks ukki I'll check it out
06:10.25DavidePalmhey I was just trying to compile a "Hello world" but cpp cant find <stdio.h>
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06:10.34DavidePalmdo I have dl libraries separately?
06:12.12thuxmorning
06:12.24DavidePalmhi
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06:13.38StskeepsDavidePalm: libc-dev
06:14.03DavidePalmI have to dl that?
06:14.16Stskeepsyeah
06:15.51DavidePalm:)
06:15.54DavidePalmdownloading
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06:42.45waswasHi everyone
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06:59.21waswasHas anyone used Code::Blocks with maemo developing?
07:04.47StskeepsCode::Blocks?
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07:09.08waswashttp://www.codeblocks.org/
07:10.33Stskeepsah, no idea
07:10.52waswasI'm still newbie, when it comes to linux
07:10.54Stskeepspeople use eclipse for some things
07:11.23waswasI found that out, but i like code::blocks more :P
07:11.41waswasBut maybe i need to test eclipse after all :>
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07:23.46mavhcwhy can't I see my shared smb folders in File Manager? I can see the computer
07:24.38ukkiare they password protected?
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07:39.00RST38hcringes at the mention of Eclipse
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07:51.34mavhcanonymous and everyone have access to them, so I'd assume not
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07:55.32JaffaMorning, all
07:55.44Stskeepsmorning jaffa
07:56.11Stskeepshas a fun morning with Intel bios SATA problems
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08:36.58wazd_n800long live the King :(
08:38.53X-Fadewazd_n800: Yeah, pretty sad.
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08:55.05X-FadeHmm were is that qwerty guy at? :)
08:56.16RST38hUK?
08:56.40X-FadeRST38h: yeah. I know, he just is not online.
08:59.41wazd_n800A2DP became fine as suddenly as it broke... My tablet is living it's own life I suppose
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09:00.44wazd_n800by the way, I've started to notive slight afterburn of the screen, what does it mean?
09:01.00wazd_n800notice*
09:01.24RST38hmoo wazd
09:01.25AStormafterburn?
09:01.29RST38hpermanent?
09:01.31AStormmoo guys
09:01.58wazd_n800AStorm, RST38h, heya
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09:02.55wazd_n800RST38h, well, it apears eventually, not every time, and acts like screen on cold
09:03.30AStormhmmm faulty LCD maybe?
09:03.34wazd_n800RST38h, I can see characters fading out slowly.
09:05.34X-FadeThe missing base64 package is now available in the sdk repository: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/b/base64/
09:07.22wazd_n800astorm, dunno
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09:09.45AStormhey,  where is the file that mounts mmc in maemo?
09:09.58Stskeepske-recv
09:10.12AStormah, that's it
09:11.35mikkov_X-Fade: Where are the download counter updates? :)
09:11.59X-Fademikkov_: The reporting tool keeps sending me empty logs.
09:12.08X-Fademikkov_: A ticket has been filed already.
09:13.53andre__~seen netblade
09:13.55infoboti haven't seen 'netblade', andre__
09:14.04andre__infobot, okay, go to sleep
09:14.04infobotACTION falls to the floor where he's standing and goes into a deep sleep
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09:18.37AStormStskeeps, but there was a file with mount insns
09:18.47AStormand I can't find the name
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09:23.32AStormblah
09:23.32AStormobviously, /usr/sbin/mmc-mount
09:24.50AStormthis needs a fix to check for 1) mounted fs 2) anything other than vfat
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09:35.03lardmanmorning
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09:39.21VDVsxmorning lardman
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09:40.36lardmanhi VDVsx
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10:09.02cpmHi, I am using Qt4 under Maemo with Nokia N810. When I click a QLineEdit field, there comes up a field for handwriting input. How can I prevent this? It overlaps the actual QLineEdit, as this is quite on the lower part of the GUI.
10:10.10*** join/#maemo fr01b (n=fr@212.30.2.18)
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10:19.25_mohi @all
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10:24.14danielwilmscpm, sorry for the late reply, trying to figure out what the problem is ;)
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10:39.30_moi am trying to start bluez in scratchbox target x86 through /etc/init.d/bluez-utils and it fails
10:39.59_moany suggestions? bluetooth stick is connected and showing up in hciconfig
10:40.45VDVsx_mo, hciconfig inside scratchbox ?
10:41.17_moif I remove the line where the PATH variable is set from /etc/init.d/bluez-utils it works ...
10:42.05VDVsx_mo, the current path should be /etc/init.d/bluetooth start, I think
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10:43.00_moyes running hciconfig inside scratchbox shows hci0 up running
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11:00.21lcukdeflates
11:00.38RichiHblows up lcuk
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11:01.53lardmansupplies some TNT
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11:04.47lardmanperhaps a bicycle tyre repair kit would be better though ;)
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11:10.49lcukRichiH, thats not the kind of boost i need
11:10.58lcuk:D and yeah lardman, that would prolly help
11:15.40VDVsxsends a pack of beers to lcuk
11:15.50lcuk:D that sounds like a plan
11:22.40jeremiahWhere's my beer?
11:25.01JaffaBeer. Hmm, interesting idea.
11:25.08Stskeepswill be getting beer at work
11:25.13Jaffa's having a bacon butty for lunch. Beer does go well with it
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11:27.52andre__jeremiah, still in the systembolaget? :-P
11:30.25jeremiahandre__: Yes - I'm afraid so. :-/
11:31.47Jaffais having a Michael Jackson day from Spotify today.
11:31.57andre__hmm, now as complaints about broken icq and yahoo messenger get popular, does anybody plan to pack pidgin-2.5.7 for maemo? :-/
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11:32.55Stskeepsthink there was some discussion yesterday
11:35.10jeremiahHmm. It would be cool if 'Request for Packaging' had an output list so people could see what packages people want
11:35.31jeremiahThen people new to the community can quickly get integrated by picking up on one of those packages
11:35.53jeremiahGet some karma points, package something, learn about the platform, etc.
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11:37.08JaffaSomething which it needs to make clear: is it expected you'd put a package name; upstream unix name; English description; general description. One thing we've seen before (and seen again in Brainstorm) is explaining to users why "port wine" won't solve the problem they think it does.
11:38.29jeremiahGood point.
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11:48.48AStormand "port wine" is a huge task
11:49.00AStormrequiring CPU emulation
11:49.11AStormand probably would work very slow
11:49.58JaffaAStorm: indeed; that was kinda my point ;-)
11:50.37cosmodoes wine support cpu emulation btw?
11:50.58AStormnow, 'update pidgin hildonization' is not
11:51.13AchipA_awaycpm: are you using C++ or python ?
11:51.51Jaffacosmo: I believe you can get wine to run in conjunction with qemu, BICBW
11:52.20AStormcosmo, €es, that's how wine runs on PPC
11:52.24AStorm*yes
11:52.49cosmowell, then it wouldn't be impossible
11:53.17AStormgetting qemu to run here would be hard
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11:53.29AStormgetting it to run fast even harder
11:53.38AchipA_awaycpm: if C++, take a look at http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4Hildon#Maemo_Qt_API_Reference , check the Input section, you can play with how HIM works
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11:54.01Jaffacosmo: No one said it was impossible; just mostly a lot of effort for very little, mostly impractical, gain
11:54.05AchipA_awaycpm: if python, you're out of luck, there are a foew known bugs regarding HIM that need fixing
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11:54.16cosmoi think speed would be enough for basic gui apps, but nothing very useful
11:54.39Jaffacosmo: have you ever done x86 emulation on ARM?
11:54.44AchipA_awaywon't memory kill you before even you get to the point of being slow ?
11:54.55JaffaApart from the lack of memory, drawing the *GUI* will take minutes
11:55.49AStormnah, that part is done by Wine
11:56.14AStormthe emulation part is to execute the apps themselves
11:56.39AStormany more intensive app will stall
11:56.44cosmoJaffa: well, dosemu runs fine on maemo
11:57.08AStormalso, wine+qemu is huge
11:57.40RazumihinIt's pretty much impossible to do decent x86 emulation on ARM.
11:57.54AStormRazumihin, wrong
11:58.17AStormeasier than you'd think
11:58.37RazumihinAStorm: At least on the older ones like nokia devices you don't even have native floating point numbers...
11:58.58AStormoffload to softfpu library
11:59.01lcuknative x86 doesnt have floats either
11:59.23AStormthey do have FPUs since Pentium
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12:00.16RazumihinYes. Okay, you could have emulation on modern arm, but i don't really see the point in emulating at least on maemo.
12:00.38AStormwine would give us some apps
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12:00.47lcukwhat stops us getting windows mobile on device
12:00.47AStormbut not the useful mobile ones
12:01.02lcukor at least or wine for mobile rather
12:01.02RazumihinWith really crappy UIs
12:01.05AStormbecause it doesn't support most of winmob and .net
12:01.15AStormRazumihin, better than none
12:01.18lcuk.net compact doesnt support most of .net ;)
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12:01.33AStormbut it's still .net 3
12:01.49AStormwhich mono doesn't support
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12:01.56RazumihinAStorm: Yes but i don't see the point. Tablet is just not suited to that kind of applications :) I would rather bring atom laptop.
12:01.57AStormyou'd also have to port mono
12:01.59AStorm:P
12:02.12lcukdone isnt it
12:02.13AStormRazumihin, for windows mobile apps?
12:02.27RazumihinAStorm: Isn't winmo ARM?
12:02.36AStormno, it isn't
12:02.50RazumihinOh. Then i agree:)
12:03.09RazumihinSorry for the fuzz i remember them being ARM based devices.
12:03.11lcuk?
12:03.19AStormwell
12:03.27AStormno, there are 2 variants of winmo
12:03.34lcukthere was a vmware demo showing wimo or something
12:03.58AStormbut that's winmo x86
12:04.00lcuksome virtualized thing switching between linux and winmo
12:04.01lcukcant remember
12:04.51AStormbah
12:04.58AStormwinmo does have an arm version
12:05.04lcukwinmo isnt for x86 tho
12:05.07lcukthere are no x86 winmo parts?
12:05.20AStormthere is winmo for x86
12:05.21lcukthe arm version is the default isnt it?
12:05.26AStormit is
12:05.28lcukits been running on xscales and things for years
12:05.42AStormso, we still get some stuff running
12:05.51RazumihinYeah... i remember it so in the beginning of 2000
12:05.59AStormbut until someone improves mono to run .net compact...
12:06.19lcuksomeone built mono for maemo didnt they
12:06.29AStormbuilding is ok
12:06.34AStormbut not enough
12:06.56AStormit doesn't support net 3 which compact has parts of
12:07.04lcukits a start tho
12:07.26lcukits not like you have to write the whole .net framework from scratch
12:07.47lcukand im sure there are mono guys aiming towards getting everything required in
12:07.54lcukand then its plain sailing
12:08.08lcuk*for varying amounts of plain
12:09.00lcukanyway, the whole start of this convo, someone mentioned that wine has an x86->arm emulator?
12:09.19lcuki thought wine mean "wine is not an emulator"
12:09.54AStormno, it can use qemu
12:10.12lcukahh
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12:17.55cpmdanielwilm: thanks! could you please use my email address mayer@tm.uka.de as correspondance for this. thanks a lot!
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12:23.16danielwilmscpm I will do this, no problem
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12:30.21RST38hEHLO
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12:32.38AchipA_away501 Syntactically invalid EHLO argument(s)
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12:35.27lcukRST38h, \o ack!
12:38.20RST38hsuddenly remembers he promised fMSX-Maemo sources to qwerty
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12:42.43andre__timeless, what is "DUPEME" in the status whiteboard?
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12:43.41timeless_mbp"it is believed that this is a duplicate of an existing bug, would a qa please find that bug and resolve one of them as a duplicate of the other"
12:46.12Stskeepstimeless_mbp: if i locate the old engineering english desktop strings that match mer hildon-desktop would you be interested in making US versions of them? then our set should be fairly complete?
12:46.29Stskeepsyou might have to do some merging into maemo-af-desktop-l10n
12:46.33timeless_mbpStskeeps: you can pull them from my diablo strings :)
12:46.58Stskeepshmm true
12:47.07timeless_mbpmy licenses says "you're free to take them" :)
12:47.18timeless_mbps/es/e/
12:48.23Stskeepsi just might
12:50.01Stskeepsthen we have a full set i guess
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12:51.42Macerla la la
12:51.43Stskeepsnot entirely sure where claudius disappeared off to, so i'm pushing a bit on this work as it's a showstopper for 0.15 if it doesn't have strings :P
12:51.53suihkulokkiengineering engrish
12:52.37Stskeepsindeed
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12:56.56andre__timeless, in the long run i can add a "probabledup" keyword as in gnome, but i don't think it's a dup :)
12:57.11timeless_mbpshrugs
12:57.20timeless_mbpwe've been using DUPEME in sw in gecko for nearly a decade
12:57.54andre__ah
12:57.55andre__also nice
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13:13.47fiferboylbt: Hey
13:14.06fiferboyI see your OBS Qt build going, it's made it to examples
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13:23.34man_in_shackwaves
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13:26.30man_in_shackanyone here know much about harmattan? :)
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13:29.58GAN800Apparently the Rays had a good game last night. . . .
13:30.27GAN800man_in_shack, official Qt support.
13:30.45fiferboyGAN800: Anyone can beat the Phillies these days.
13:30.52fiferboyThe Jays just swept them in Phillie
13:31.02GAN800man_in_shack, that's mostly the extent of what we're sure about although there should be a bit more info on the roadmap on the wiki.
13:31.35GAN800fiferboy, well, there're broken beer bottles all over the sidewalk out front. ;)
13:31.47fiferboyAh, that's how you can tell!
13:32.10fiferboyI guess it is good revenge, after losing the World Series to them last year
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13:33.24Jaffaman_in_shack: some mockups of an integrated widget-oriented; scrollable home screen.
13:34.21oespirit~seen vimzard
13:34.23infobotvimzard is currently on #gsoc (8h 27m 27s), last said: 'sid0: :-P'.
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13:36.51man_in_shackwell, apparently a wireless network feature i want has been planned for harmattan
13:37.00man_in_shackso ... i'm wondering what devices it will be released for
13:37.00JaffaOh?
13:37.12man_in_shackhttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1635
13:37.15Jaffaman_in_shack: We've no idea on that :(
13:38.08Jaffaman_in_shack: Oh, if yours is the final comment: no, it won't be available for existing devices
13:38.28man_in_shackso that's yet another slap in the goddamn face
13:38.35JaffaFremantle (due out at some point this year) isn't even being released for N8x0s; but portions of it are being backported to N8x0 and 770 devices in Mer
13:39.09man_in_shackhow about they actually do something sensible and backport the wireless improvements to diablo?
13:39.32Jaffaman_in_shack: Err, Harmattan is roadmapped for release either late *next* year or the year after (my guess). The N810 is over two years old; running a cutting edge mobile OS on (at least) 4 year old hardware seems pretty unreasonable as an expectation.
13:39.55man_in_shackone little feature is all i ask
13:40.06man_in_shackit's not like it's difficult
13:40.08Jaffaman_in_shack: Who's "they"? They might be available via Mer (or Mer might already have it via its Ubuntu base)
13:40.18man_in_shackf*** mer
13:40.21Jaffaman_in_shack: Ah, you're a coder?
13:40.22man_in_shackunstable crap
13:40.42man_in_shackJaffa, the wpa-supplicant support for that particular type of network is something like 20 lines of code
13:40.57Jaffaman_in_shack: If you know it's not difficult, I assume you're familiar with the innards of Linux network stacks & Maemo's UI code; so if it's not hard you can add it yourself.
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13:41.18man_in_shacklast i heard maemo's networking system was closed source
13:41.31Jaffaman_in_shack: Mer's under development, and its developers are some of the most committed and dedicated volunteers in the community. Calling its in-development releases "unstable crap" is just plain trolling.
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13:41.50man_in_shackJaffa, mer is unsuited to my needs
13:42.38Jaffa*Now*, perhaps. The aim long term is for it not to be unsuited to your needs. And if it includes whatever wifi protocols you require, that's a win.
13:43.15man_in_shacki need something that, e.g., doesn't continuously assume i'm hitting Enter when trying to put the cursor in a text field
13:43.21Myrttismells love in the air
13:45.28RST38hman_in_shack: If you do not like Mer, use OS2008.
13:45.40man_in_shackos2008 doesn't have the wifi support i need
13:45.43MyrttiRST38h: but but but it doesn't have the wifi!
13:45.51RST38hman_in_shack: If you do not like OS2008, put together your own distro
13:46.03RST38hMyrtti: Wait, we are slowly getting to that ;)
13:46.24man_in_shackand to be perfectly honest, nokia has just been sitting around on their butts since they first released os2007 when it comes to this particular configuration of wireless network
13:46.40man_in_shacknow they finally say they are PLANNING to support it, and it's only for new devices
13:46.44Myrttiman_in_shack: here, have a lollipop
13:46.47man_in_shackwhich is just a money making scheme
13:47.14RST38hman_in_shack: I am sure you can pay someone to implement what you want
13:47.34man_in_shackany suggestions on who?
13:48.03RST38hman_in_shack: There are guys from Openismus and other embedded Linux companies in the Nokia community
13:48.07qwerty12_N810man_in_shack: bothered to read #43?
13:48.26Stskeepsdid you try to get the wpasupplicant ICD plugin? :P
13:48.36RST38hman_in_shack: I suggest you post your request (with bounty amount) on talk.maemo.org or one of the mailing lists
13:48.45man_in_shackqwerty12_N810, could not get it to work
13:49.08man_in_shackin fact, could not even find a correct driver to install
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13:53.07RST38hand nokia or mer are somehow guilty of it?
13:53.43man_in_shackfor failing to support this network type from the very start? yes
13:54.12Jaffaman_in_shack: You think Nokia is intentionally introducing new OSes which try to compete with the Androids, webOSes and iPhones of this world to gouge money out of existing customers by prematurely obsoleting hardware? Or were you (correctly) just saying that by constantly pushing forward the OS, they're trying to entice in new customers and increase market share in an increasingly competitive market?
13:54.38Jaffaman_in_shack: Yeah, but a) it was never advertised as supporting it; b) moaning about the past seems pretty unproductive.
13:54.40Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: heads up btw, tear will break with 0.7
13:54.50Stskeeps(vala)
13:55.02RST38hman_in_shack: well, Nokia does not support my 802.11a and TokenRing installations. Should I blame Nokia for that too?
13:55.04man_in_shackJaffa, was it ever advertised as supporting MSCHAPv2?
13:55.19man_in_shackit was advertised as supporting WPA-EAP
13:55.25JaffaStskeeps: Didn't Bundyo say he was updating it to support the required changes? (in the tear thread after I said 0.7.3 was now in extras)
13:55.36StskeepsJaffa: oh, possibly - the source i had wasn't fixed yet
13:55.37man_in_shackwhich it does not because it does not support this ONE configuration of WPA-EAP
13:55.51Myrttihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo Love is in the air!
13:55.52Jaffaman_in_shack: If the device doesn't do as it was advertised: send it back and/or take Nokia to court for fale advertising.
13:55.57man_in_shackwhich is a common configuration for a variety of businesses and educational institutes world-wide
13:56.08*** join/#maemo halves (n=higor@201-77-125-1.desktop.com.br)
13:56.13RST38hhow common?
13:56.33JaffaStskeeps: IIRC he said he *would* update, not that he had - so it might still not be done ;-)
13:56.42man_in_shackvast majority of eduroam systems
13:56.49RST38hMy university does not use it. My employer does not use it. WiFi APs across the city do not use it. My home AP does not use it.
13:56.53Stskeepseduroam should work fine if you add the certificate
13:56.56Stskeepsseveral guides for it
13:56.59man_in_shackno
13:57.03*** join/#maemo luck (n=luck@200.184.118.130)
13:57.08man_in_shackeduroam comes in two varieties
13:57.11man_in_shackone is supported, one is not
13:57.18man_in_shackguess which one i have to work with
13:57.29RST38htough luck.
13:57.42man_in_shackit's not the fucking microsoft one that nokia DOES support
13:57.56VDVsxis glad that the n8x0 wifi works very well in the eduroam network in his country :P
13:58.13RST38hVDVsx: It IS the fucking microsoft one! =)
13:58.19MyrttiI guess it makes him happier to rant about it
13:58.34GAN800joins the whine tasting.
13:58.37RST38hMyrtti: maybe we should channel him toward OGG support? =)
13:58.40VDVsxRST38h, don't care, it works :P
13:58.58MyrttiRST38h: OH BOY!
13:59.07RST38hVDVsx: It is because of people like you Bill Gates is growing his 5th chin right now!
13:59.07Myrttilet's start with that!
13:59.09man_in_shackhow the HELL is announcing support for this in harmattan meant to help anyone who's "stuck" with their older devices?
13:59.33Myrttiman_in_shack: would you rather not to have it in Harmattan?
13:59.43*** join/#maemo pupnik_ (n=pupnik@unaffiliated/pupnik)
13:59.49man_in_shackMyrtti, i don't give a flying fuck about harmattan if i can't use it
13:59.51RST38hmoo pupnik
14:00.12RST38hMyrtti: He does have a point, about Harmattan =)
14:01.14VDVsxRST38h, nah, the university paid Cisco for the work and material :P, and the servers run debian :) (at least in my university)
14:01.33MyrttiRST38h: good entertainment is what I call him
14:01.42Stskeepsif you have wpa supplicant working, http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:xZT6Jw6lA5wJ:eduroam.metu.edu.tr/wpa_supplicant.conf+eduroam+wpa+supplicant+EAP-TTLS+%2B+PAP&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=dk looks fairly trivial.
14:01.47RST38hVDVsx: Oh, the horror! Debian is supporting the world evil (tm)!
14:01.51Stskeepser, http://eduroam.metu.edu.tr/wpa_supplicant.conf
14:02.45Jaffaman_in_shack: If you want to whine and moan that Nokia isn't going to support it on your device; tough - go somewhere else, we can't help. If you're having problems getting the community-provided solutions working, it seems people are trying to help.
14:02.47VDVsxRST38h, lol
14:03.05man_in_shackStskeeps, that's a pretty damn big "if"
14:03.16man_in_shackas nokia's drivers don't even support wext
14:03.34Stskeepsthey do, with a fairly easy patch
14:03.40Stskeepsgrab mer's cx3110x.ko
14:04.01RST38hman_in_shack: If it is any consolation, Nokia does not support SIP through NAT on my cell phone
14:04.30RST38hman_in_shack: So, should I start attacking Nokia stores with Molotov coctails because of that? =)
14:04.39StskeepsRST38h: i had you suspected of having such plans!
14:04.46VDVsxRST38h, yes, please, lolol
14:05.00Myrttias long as you keep out of Finland
14:05.01AStormman_in_shack, there is an open driver by Nokia that does support wext
14:05.04AStormso stfu
14:05.05AStorm:)
14:05.19man_in_shackAStorm, where?
14:05.24man_in_shackRST38h, STFU
14:05.25AStormthey don't use it yet in maemo
14:05.33AStormcx3310~
14:05.43AStormcx3310x google it
14:05.50Myrtticomic relief ♥
14:05.50RST38h<another successfully phallomorphed target>
14:05.52AStormas Stskeeps "aid
14:06.00Myrttican see it's Friday
14:06.16Stskeepspasses Myrtti beer from the #maemo friday bar
14:06.26*** join/#maemo alecrim (n=alecrim@201.7.142.10)
14:06.26Myrttiwohoo! \o/
14:06.38RST38hpaints another star on his keyboard
14:06.43AStormman_in_shack, 9h btw, it won't work on the old kernel Maemo uses
14:06.57AStormonly on a new one (like Mer has)
14:07.09Stskeepsnah
14:07.16Stskeepswill work on same kernel.
14:07.22StskeepsMer doesn't have a new kernel, only patches
14:07.23AStormand all the Nokia custom apps, that is IPA, don't know about wext
14:07.25man_in_shackhttps://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/
14:07.34AStormyeah that
14:07.38man_in_shacki think i tried this and couldn't find a sensible download
14:07.49man_in_shackthere was some other driver that was meant to replace it or something
14:07.52AStormbecause it isn't built
14:07.54GAN800man_in_shack, you want to complain, call up Nokia Care.
14:08.04AStormgrab the module from Mer
14:08.06Stskeepsman_in_shack: grab a mer tar.gz, extract cx3110x.ko from it, mount initfs rw, copy it in there..
14:08.10RST38hGAN: Now, *that( is sadistic.
14:08.14qwerty12_N810Why would you want to build that oldass version?
14:08.20AStormalso, again, connection manager won't work with it
14:08.28AStormhave fun installing a replacement
14:08.39AStormI recommend wicd
14:08.40Stskeepsmer module will work fine with connection manager
14:08.44Stskeepswe don't fuck around that much..
14:08.45Stskeeps:P
14:08.47AStormit will?
14:08.49AStormhaha
14:09.02AStormI suppose it didn't last time
14:09.21MyrttiDaddy, did  the scary monster go away now?
14:09.22Stskeepswell honestly i didn't try but it would surprise me if it doesn't
14:09.36StskeepsMyrtti: mention of "wicd"? :P
14:10.12MyrttiStskeeps: the musky smelling hairy beast that lives in a cave
14:10.26Stskeepswhat, me?
14:10.27Stskeeps:P
14:10.48Stskeepsgoes track down a crashing bug in mer hildon desktop
14:10.55man_in_shackStskeeps, btw, even if this doesn't work out, thanks for TRYING to help without being deliberately exacerbating like some of the other people here
14:11.12lardmannotes lots of expletives in the channel
14:11.43Stskeepsman_in_shack: all that info is in the exact same bug you pointed to, AFAIK
14:11.56RST38hheya lardman
14:12.37Stskeepsman_in_shack: also, keep in my mind you just badmouthed my baby and i'm -still- helping you - you get very far with being kind and asking out of the blue if anyone can help you with X because you're stuck at Y
14:13.15lardmanand on that note, the beer, not the swearing, I'm heading for home
14:13.22Stskeepsbeer!
14:13.23lardmancu all later
14:13.25Stskeepsthe solution to all problems
14:13.34*** join/#maemo wazd_n800 (n=wazd@83.149.9.108)
14:13.36lardman|gone:)
14:13.44GAN800RST38h, well, they're the only people that can help him.
14:13.47Stskeeps(i can agree mer is sometimes unstable crap, though, hence why i'm doing an effort to fix things :)
14:14.10RST38hGAN: I haven't seen anyone helped by Nokia Care. Ever.
14:14.33*** join/#maemo Talus_Laptop (n=Talus@89-180-196-159.net.novis.pt)
14:14.37man_in_shacki wish i knew what happened to my old mer install
14:15.15GAN800RST38h, complaining here only serves to irritate people who MIGHT be willing to try helpingz you otherwise. If you want to express your displeasure with Nokia then you need to talk TO Nokia
14:15.50RST38hGAN: That goes without argument, of course.
14:16.16Stskeepsman_in_shack: ran off after knocking up an iphone..
14:16.48GAN800man_in_shack, just, fyi, first warning here, next time you coming in flinging around insults, don't expect to last long. :)
14:17.04Stskeepsah, he's been in here before and been cheerful
14:17.26Stskeeps(no sarcasm in that sentence)
14:17.29man_in_shackGAN800, i don't expect to be treated like crap because i want a SIMPLE feature that should have been implemented long ago
14:17.35*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-30-246.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net)
14:17.38AStormnot so simple
14:17.51*** join/#maemo vivijim (n=vivijim@unaffiliated/vivijim)
14:17.54AStormthanks to TI being asses
14:18.02man_in_shacki don't expect to be treated like crap because i refuse to waste money buying something that will run harmattan when it's released
14:18.30*** join/#maemo chenkai036 (n=Chenkai@222.69.215.84)
14:18.32suihkulokkiyou should expected to be treated like creap if you enter a irc channel ranting
14:18.43VDVsxman_in_shack, blame nokia, not the maemo community ;)
14:18.59Stskeepsman_in_shack: we can agree on that the whole fixed in fremantle/harmattan thing is crap, but it's just because we as community haven't been strong enough to create pipelines for delivering these fixes, or organising people in a manner so it gets done..
14:19.03AStormthat's why there'll be mer
14:19.28Stskeepsman_in_shack: which is really what we're doing with mer and eventually the diablo community variants
14:19.43AStormand that's why there have been hacker editions for 770
14:19.44man_in_shackand i don't expect to be treated like crap because i want the solution now, when it's actually relevant, not in 12 months when i might not even have access to this particular netowkr
14:19.54wazd_n800ohohoh, scandal!)
14:20.05wazd_n800I came just in time)
14:20.28GAN800man_in_shack, nobody here wants to be treated like crap because you're having a bad morning either. :)
14:20.30AStormman_in_shack, hire a nokia dev or someone like that to do it...
14:21.04AStormactually, workaround is now possible thanks to mer
14:21.24AStormbut this isn't integrated in diablo right now, for obvious reasons
14:21.35AStormbtw, what kind of feature is that?
14:21.48man_in_shackwhat obvious reasons?
14:22.11wazd_n800what's the theme of current speculation?)
14:22.32wazd_n800I want to participate!)
14:22.52AStormman_in_shack, all workforce moved to fremantle
14:23.12AStormand current driver being stable and tested
14:23.45man_in_shackthat's not an obvious reason for why it wasn't done in the first place
14:23.53VDVsxwazd_n800, not a speculation, just ranting :P
14:23.53Jaffaman_in_shack: The main point is that this channel is a community channel, not a Nokia support channel. And we're focused on trynig to solve problems: we've done our sitting around in a moaning circle-jerk before and moved on. More productive times.
14:24.04AStormit wasn't done, because there was no driver
14:24.06AStormduh
14:24.11AStormit's fairly new
14:24.42AStormgood that they made it
14:24.47Stskeepscx3110x? released long ago :P
14:25.03man_in_shackhttps://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=12&release_id=1012 << FEBURARY 2007
14:25.05*** join/#maemo Zhilin_n800 (n=wazd@83.149.9.76)
14:26.04wazd_n801I don't know why everybody call TI asses and stuff
14:26.04qwerty12_N810Look in the diablo sdk repo
14:26.16AStormStskeeps, but wasn't stable
14:26.19qwerty12_N810Much newer than the one listed on the garage page
14:26.30AStormah right
14:26.36AStormanother obstacle
14:26.39AStorm:P
14:26.48AStormit's.... somewhere :P
14:27.09AStormwazd_n800, because TI NDAs are evil
14:27.42wazd_n801They had a price list for OMAP2 platform, Nokia decided not to y for video driver. Now TI decided to present our community those drivers for free and you call'em asses
14:27.55wazd_n801not to pay*
14:28.10AStorms/those drivers/binaries/
14:28.25AStormthat's a difference
14:28.40oespiritblinks in disbelief after scrolling down more than a dozen screenfuls of rant-ish channel logs
14:28.43wazd_n801not binaries! Fresh opened drivers with sources
14:28.43AStormbtw, gimme a link to them
14:28.58qwerty12_N810AStorm: no, there's talk of a open source powervr driver. it does have some bugs compared to the binary only ones
14:28.59AStormlink or it didn't happen
14:28.59wazd_n801have you read a thread?
14:29.11AStormno
14:29.15rm_youi thought the problem was that the built-in video chip on the OMAP2 wasn't actually part of the video pipeline because it was too low resolution so there is a different LCD controller powering the screen
14:29.37wazd_n801AStorm: It's in the same place as the whole gasping
14:30.01rm_youdid I just pull that out of nowhere, or does someone else know what i'm referring to?
14:30.06AStormyeah, that is mostly OMAP2 designed for other stuff than a 800x480 tablet
14:30.07JaffaAStorm: qgil's 9.06-14 task in http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/June_09 - being tracked in the "N800 has a 3D accelerator?" thread on tmo
14:30.08Stskeepsrm_you: no, i've heard that before
14:30.19Stskeepsrm_you: but it doesn't mean that it isn't useful
14:30.20qwerty12_N810rm_you: it's true
14:30.22*** join/#maemo rsalveti (n=rsalveti@201.7.142.10)
14:30.42wazd_n801rm_you: well, this is a secondary problem
14:30.58rm_youlol alright
14:31.18Stskeepsrm_you: how's cross platform backlight coming? :P
14:31.32wazd_n801rm_you: you can do cool thing with pixel doubling for example
14:31.35rm_youlol, i've been working and driving and working and driving >_<
14:31.41GAN800rm_you, memory is system
14:31.51GAN800the framebuffer isn't any issue
14:31.52rm_youi thought it already did hardware pixel doubling
14:32.05man_in_shackoh just thought of something else
14:32.08GAN800The Epspn chip does free arbitrary scaling
14:32.09wazd_n801run thru power vr at 400x240 and then double it with Epson
14:32.33man_in_shackis it possible to disable esd on diablo, preferably temporarily so i can test what i suspect to be a latency issue with some apps?
14:32.42AStormwazd_n800, or 640x480
14:32.47AStormand add bars
14:33.07*** join/#maemo rsalveti (n=rsalveti@201.7.142.10)
14:33.26wazd_n801astorm, well, there are a lot of tricks)
14:33.31rm_youfeels guilty for looking quite hungrily at the Archos 7
14:33.34suihkulokkiman_in_shack: iirc /etc/init.d/esd (?) stop
14:34.08wazd_n801Anyway, they are making pure opened driver for community, so the community can improve it later
14:34.23man_in_shacksuihkulokki, i tried that, but it seems it autostarted when the app started
14:34.33AStormwazd_n800, goodie
14:34.35Stskeepswazd_n801: yeah.. i think people are just bitter :P
14:34.44Jaffawazd_n801: nothing's confirmed yet - still time for it to go fubar
14:34.45man_in_shackStskeeps, i can't find maemo's initrd
14:34.50AStormpity we can't run compiz on top of that at 800x480
14:34.52AStorm:/
14:34.58Stskeepsman_in_shack: we don't have one, /lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/ somewhere
14:35.03AStormguess we'll have to settle for Xv
14:35.06rm_youlol, compix on tablet? rofl
14:35.09man_in_shacksomeone said initrd
14:35.09suihkulokkiman_in_shack: hrmh, that might be, I guess you'll need to chmod -x the binary then
14:35.13rm_yous/compix/compiz/
14:35.25AStormrm_you, why not, w/o effects
14:36.07man_in_shackthere's no /lib/modules :|
14:36.11AStormstill, 3D is overrated
14:36.14rm_youi mean don't get me wrong, i love compiz... i worked a bit on the project when it was forked to beryl...
14:36.18rm_youbut i don
14:36.19AStormman_in_shack, it's in initramfs
14:36.26rm_youbut i don't see the point on the tablet :P
14:36.39GAN800800x480 at 12bpp should work
14:36.43AStormthat was tongue in cheek
14:36.55AStormGAN800, hmm, low color? interesting
14:37.02rm_youthat
14:37.07man_in_shackAStorm, it's in where?
14:37.10AStormdoes the screen have any more?
14:37.24rm_youhrm
14:37.31wazd_n801GAN800, well, 12bpp really suxx (
14:37.37rm_youack gotta go
14:37.43AStormwazd_n800, you do
14:37.44rm_youback to idling for a few days :P
14:37.52wazd_n801Even 16 is not very cool, 12 is uber lame)
14:37.54AStormthe LCD doesn't have any more than this
14:38.20wazd_n801but you can run blackberry UI with this mode :P
14:38.22*** join/#maemo torkiano (n=torkiano@10.143.165.83.static.mundo-r.com)
14:39.11man_in_shackStskeeps, i can't work out where to put this kernel module
14:39.40man_in_shackthere's no /lib/modules, apparently no initrd file ...
14:39.59AStormman_in_shack, it's a separate partition
14:40.10AStormaccessible via /initrd (but readonly)
14:40.10Stskeepsman_in_shack: mount -o remount,rw /mnt/initfs ,  put it in /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/somewhere-where-cx3110x.ko is
14:40.21qwerty12_N810/mnt/initfs/lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1
14:40.22StskeepsAStorm: no initrd on maemo or mer
14:40.25AStormyeah, that
14:40.37AStormStskeeps, initramfs, yep
14:40.39AStormwhatever
14:40.46*** join/#maemo Zhilin_n800 (n=wazd@83.149.10.95)
14:40.57AStormor maybe even not ram :P
14:40.59AStorminitfs
14:41.07man_in_shackAStorm, /initrd is not in fstab
14:41.19AStorm...
14:41.21AStormit's not
14:41.30AStorm/mnt/initfs is already mounte
14:41.33AStormd
14:41.39man_in_shackah, /dev/root == /mnt/initfs in mtab
14:41.41*** join/#maemo JimiDini (n=JimiDini@93.185.190.227)
14:41.43AStorm(by the boot loader)
14:41.44man_in_shacki see
14:41.53*** part/#maemo JimiDini (n=JimiDini@93.185.190.227)
14:41.57AStorm(then pivot_rooted)
14:43.21man_in_shacknow i see a file cx3110x_mt.ko
14:43.23man_in_shackwhat's that?
14:43.37GAN800400x240 at 16bpp
14:43.45AStorma variant
14:43.46*** join/#maemo matt_c (n=mcroydon@gateway.sunflowerbroadband.com)
14:43.54AStormusing different firmware
14:44.00man_in_shackhm ok
14:44.00*** join/#maemo ssvb (n=ssvb___@viktor.cosmicparrot.net)
14:44.35man_in_shackso first step is to confirm that the WPA-PSK wireless at home works :D
14:45.01AStormit didn't?
14:45.12man_in_shackit did
14:45.14AStormthat should work
14:45.15man_in_shacknow it has a new module
14:45.20AStormah, yep
14:45.36AStormstill, why do you need the new driver?
14:45.48man_in_shackyou don't want to live long do you?
14:46.31*** join/#maemo brut- (n=brut-@h66-173-4-254.mntimn.dedicated.static.tds.net)
14:46.32AStormwhat will I die from laughter?
14:46.38AStorm:P
14:46.55RST38hslaughters AStorm to save Darwin some work
14:47.03man_in_shackok, home's wireless is being detected but it's not connecting
14:47.17*** join/#maemo cjdavis (n=cjdavis@cpe-71-67-99-208.cinci.res.rr.com)
14:47.20*** part/#maemo _mo (n=admin@141.62.66.244)
14:47.32AStormdid I mention the conn manager doesn't work with it?
14:47.34RST38h(before AStorm cuts another power supply open and electrocutes himself that is :))
14:47.38AStormtry iwconfig
14:47.49AStormRST38h, I'm not stupid
14:47.52man_in_shackAStorm, Stskeeps mentioned that it did
14:47.55Stskeepswell
14:48.01Stskeepsi'm obviously wrong
14:48.05man_in_shackfuck
14:48.18AStormwpa_supplicant is available
14:48.21Stskeepslsmod and see if cx3110x is there
14:48.22RST38hAStorm: don't have to be, "careless" is sufficient
14:48.24AStormidk if wicd is too
14:48.31man_in_shackStskeeps, it is, hence the successful scan
14:48.35AStormRST38h, not *that* careless
14:48.41RST38hhehe
14:48.47Stskeepsman_in_shack: anyway, the wpa extension thingie should work now
14:49.00Stskeepsfunny normal osso-wlan doesn't work with it
14:49.22man_in_shackwicd would be fine
14:49.26man_in_shackif it was available
14:49.39RST38hCreepy stuff: http://gizmodo.com/5302856/anti+abuse-bus-stop-ad-only-batters-women-when-nobodys-looking
14:52.19man_in_shackso anyone know if network-manager, wicd, etc are packaged for maemo anywhere?
14:52.37AStormnm is unlikely, it pulls gnome
14:52.43man_in_shackindeed
14:52.48man_in_shackwicd then :P
14:52.50AStormbut wicd... someone could do it
14:52.53man_in_shackand wpa-supplicant
14:53.05AStormStskeeps, maybe you have them?
14:54.34AStormmer 100% has wpa-supplicant
14:54.43AStormnot sure about wicd
14:55.15*** join/#maemo ignacius (n=ignacius@112.Red-83-54-247.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net)
14:55.26AStorm(it uses nm)
14:58.56*** join/#maemo n6pfkk (n=mike@c-76-104-54-202.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
14:59.32man_in_shackwell right now i either need a link to a package for at least wpa-supplicant or preferably something with a gui too :P
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15:11.48man_in_shackscrew it ... maybe someone will be nice enough to send me the maemo cx3110x module so i can at least get my home internet back
15:12.23Stskeepsyou can always reflash initfs specifically
15:12.25Stskeeps--flash-only
15:12.35man_in_shackhmm?
15:12.46man_in_shackwhat command exactly?
15:15.04man_in_shackpokes Stskeeps
15:15.18Stskeeps./flasher-3.0 -F fiasco-image --flash-only=initfs or something
15:16.30man_in_shackhmm
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15:16.44man_in_shackseem to be missing a few things there
15:17.23Stskeepshence the "or something"
15:17.28Stskeepsthere's a guide on how to get rid of bootmenu, same trick
15:18.13man_in_shacklink?
15:19.46Stskeepshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card#Remove_the_menu
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15:22.52Macerwhere was all this love for michael jackson when the world thought he was a pervert?
15:24.00RST38hThere is love for michael jackson?
15:24.08StskeepsMacer: well he was innocent according to the verdict, so
15:24.27RST38hSts: Just loved children sooooo much, didn't he? =)
15:24.49man_in_shackis fiasco-flasher sufficient or do i need flasher-3.0?
15:25.09Macerheh
15:25.22Maceri know
15:25.28Maceri dont think he was a pervert
15:25.33Macermaybe nuts
15:25.39Macerif one of the parents said... dont give us a cent. we dont want it. just send him to jail
15:25.48Macerthen i would have believed him to be a pervert
15:25.56RST38hwonders if wherever Michael Jackson went now he is kept in a jar filled with formaldehyde
15:26.41man_in_shackwait a sec
15:26.57man_in_shackdoes the mer installer flash its own initfs?
15:27.16MacerRST38h: heh. well. i dont think his chemically altered skin decomposes
15:28.02Maceri bet all his sorry ass family members are going to be clawing at his money
15:28.15Macerexcept janet (the only other successful one)
15:28.28Stskeepsman_in_shack: bootmenu installer does yeah
15:28.33man_in_shackand maybe jesse
15:28.38StskeepsMacer: what money?
15:28.39Stskeeps:P
15:28.49Macerlike the mlk jr family who sue people for using their uncle's picture on a t shirt
15:29.04MacerStskeeps: dont believe what tyou hear
15:29.08Macerhe had a ton of money
15:29.23Macereven more so now that he died
15:29.24man_in_shackStskeeps, so running the bootmenu installer again should restore my wireless driver? :)
15:29.35Maceri bet millions flocked to buy michael jackson crap
15:29.38Macerlike elvis
15:29.39Stskeepsman_in_shack: we only modify initfs, not overwrite it
15:29.47man_in_shackoh
15:29.58lcukis the comeback tour still on?
15:30.03man_in_shacktoo smart for my own good
15:30.05Macerlol
15:30.06man_in_shacklcuk, of course it is
15:30.09Stskeepslcuk: MJ as one of the zombies?
15:30.11Macerlcuk: yeah!
15:30.34man_in_shacklcuk, first ever musician to do a "comeback from the dead" tour
15:30.40Macernow they can have the jackson 5 reunion too.. where all of his brothers can exploit his death
15:30.41lcukif he can pull that one off, he deserves his title
15:30.50Macer=)
15:31.36Macersing all their bullshit songs about how they loved michael
15:32.07Macershow his pictures on a giant imax sized screen while murdering his songs with their own voices
15:32.17Stskeepsgah.. i so understand why they dropped hildon-desktop like it's hot
15:32.23Stskeepsas in, 2.0
15:32.38MacerStskeeps: they dropped it?
15:32.46Stskeepsas in remade it for clutter
15:32.46Macerno more hildon?
15:32.54Maceroh
15:33.28Macercould be worse. it could have the symbian gui
15:33.32man_in_shack<Macer> sing all their bullshit songs about how they loved michael  << incest
15:33.36JaffaStskeeps: is it cos it's a painful sack of shit?
15:34.00Macerhilson is ugly
15:34.02StskeepsJaffa: very unstable
15:34.14Stskeepscan crash it pretty decently atm
15:34.16Macerbut i suppose necessary for the screen space
15:34.55man_in_shackwell this download is going to take longer than i can stay awake
15:34.59MacerStskeeps:  make a qt based env
15:35.00man_in_shackStskeeps, thanks for your help so far
15:35.04qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: X-Osso-Service=com.nokia.whatever-the-fuck will segfault it :\
15:35.11StskeepsMacer: the thought has crossed my mind.
15:35.15Stskeepsdid you see Qtablet?
15:35.17man_in_shacksome time soon i'll try compiling wpa-supplicant and wicd for maemo
15:35.20MacerStskeeps: no
15:35.29Maceri dont have my n800 anymore ;)
15:35.39StskeepsMacer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwmW6_G0TM
15:36.03Macerok
15:36.06Macerwill check it out
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15:40.40Maceromfg
15:40.48MacerStskeeps: that is awesome!
15:40.51Macerlol
15:40.54Maceruse that!
15:40.56Macerhaha
15:41.18Stskeepsexcept development kinda stalled
15:41.26Macerthen unstall it
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15:49.41Stskeepswonders what on earth libiphb is for
15:49.44Stskeepsbesides heartbeat stuff
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15:57.02oespiritStskeeps: to render yet another package out-of-reach and unbuildable
15:57.13Stskeepsoespirit: ah, but easily hackable
15:57.18Stskeepsi just built hildon-home
15:57.30Stskeepswith a bit of good old fashioned delete everything that moves
15:57.31Stskeeps:P
15:57.51oespiritStskeeps: that applies to many of the things in the UI. wonder if they thought nobody would bother hacking
15:58.13oespiritStskeeps: keeping icons closed for instance, is just too much
15:58.56Stskeepsah, but that's sortof replacable
16:00.18oespiritStskeeps: precisely my point. Why keep things closed if you know people will get to them anyways
16:02.22Stskeepsin this particular fashion i would say because of competition :P
16:02.52Stskeepsit would have been a very possible thing that some random chinese manufactorer had fremantle beta and published before nokia's first device with it
16:03.47oespiritStskeeps: they can do that now with mer :P
16:04.37Stskeepsnah, hardly as much as with a full fremantle :P
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16:23.29GAN800Stskeeps, can you imagine if the SmartQ shipped with Fremantle? ;)
16:24.08Stskeepsi suspect that would single-handedly kill nokia involvement in open source
16:24.30Stskeeps(there's a reason why we try to differentiate mer ui, really)
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17:11.59MacerStskeeps: screw hildon.. use qtablet :-P
17:12.01Macerlol
17:12.14Macerit's so pretty
17:12.22Macerit is going to make me buy an n810
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17:16.55AStormMacer, linky?
17:17.12AStormwhy would it require n810?
17:17.29Macerwell. i gave Stskeeps my n800
17:17.44Macerso why would i get another one when n810s are so cheap?
17:17.50Macer:)
17:18.30AStormheh
17:18.32GAN800throws up a little in his mouth at Nokia Android netbooks.
17:18.37AStormlink to qtablet please?
17:18.45StskeepsGAN800: url?
17:18.50Macerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwmW6_G0TM
17:18.53AStormlol
17:18.57Macerandroid netbooks?
17:19.00GAN800Somebody needs to hand Android the smackdown. I'm more tired of it than I am of the iPhone.
17:19.05AStormMacer, nonyoutube plz?
17:19.19Macerandroid would kind of suck on something that can run xp
17:19.27GAN800http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=300049
17:19.31Macerhey
17:19.35Maceri have an n800
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17:19.42Macerer
17:19.43GAN800Android kind of sucks period
17:19.43Macerg1
17:19.48Macerlol
17:19.55RST38hGAN: Any particular reasons?
17:20.01Macerit is better than most phone operating systems
17:20.02RST38h(other than the ones I know about =))
17:20.06StskeepsGAN800: analyst..
17:20.14Maceri couldnt see it on a netbook tho
17:20.24GAN800RST38h, didn't care for the G1 or the software, Google, Java, open source bs.
17:20.29Macerbut my g1 is great
17:20.34GAN800(in no particular order)
17:20.49RST38hAha
17:20.51GAN800RST38h, Android is like tegra
17:20.54Firebirdwell isn't maemo turning into a phone os similar to android and iphoneos
17:21.02RST38hTegra is actually hardware though =)
17:21.12Macerheh
17:21.24GAN800Every fanboi gets wrongful feelings when they hear about it, but it's largely just hype.
17:21.24RST38hFirebird: Maemo is turning into S60 replacement on high end Nokia phones
17:21.45RST38hWhether you like this fact or not is completely up to you
17:21.46MacerGAN800: ive been using android. it is good
17:21.55GAN800Firebird, way more powerful than any of those.
17:21.56Macerminus the lack of bt stuff
17:22.18GAN800No manufacturer/carrier/developer impossed insanity.
17:22.24GAN800Java, AppStore, whatever.
17:22.25Macerlike file xfering and i had to build it myself
17:22.33MacerGAN800: you dont know that yet
17:22.43Firebirdyea, it may be coming soon
17:22.44Macerit has a built in hspda modem
17:22.47GAN800Who wants to bet there'll be absolutely zero issue tethering to an N900? :)
17:22.56Macerwhy tether?
17:22.59Macer:)
17:23.11Macerthe modem is built in
17:23.13GAN800Because Comcast sucks ass
17:23.22GAN800Macer, tether TO.
17:23.32AStormaaaah :)
17:23.33Macerand i dont have much of an issue tethering my g1 to anything
17:23.36AStormyeah, that better work
17:23.48AStormsee, bluez can tether
17:23.57AStormas long as tthere's a nice ui
17:24.03Macerso can adhoc wifi
17:24.12Macerwith some iptables rules
17:24.26AStormthat's not effortless
17:24.29Macerand probably works more efficiently than bt tethering
17:24.46AStormthat's true, though not power efficiently
17:24.52GAN800adhoc eats power
17:24.54MacerAStorm: it is when you have an app that has a "start tether" button
17:25.15Macernot too badly
17:25.24AStormGAN800, that's why bt pan is better
17:25.48Maceryou could always get the larger g1 battery
17:25.51Macer:)
17:26.06AStormand even bt dun - but I've no idea how to set that up w/ bluez
17:26.19Macerif my g1 had printing support it would own all
17:26.29AStormnope
17:26.38AStormtry to play a movie
17:26.40mgedminhad figured out once how to setup bt dun, but never had any success with pan
17:26.53AStormmgedmin, howto plz
17:27.05AStormpan is easy, just enable and route
17:27.08mgedminsighs
17:27.15mgedminboth are damn too hard
17:27.16RST38hmgdemin: that is because os2008 does not support it out of the box
17:27.34mgedminnotices distinct deterioration in his grammar
17:27.44AStormmgedmin, yeah, a good UI would be much better
17:27.46Maceri still cant see android on a ntbook
17:27.49Macernetbook
17:27.58Macerit would be rather pointless
17:28.01AStormnitbook? ;)
17:28.07mgedminfwiw the bt dun I'd set up was to get my palm tx to sync via bluetooth (using network sync) with my laptop; and it was some time ago
17:28.12Macerno offense but i cant see mer on one either
17:28.38Macerwhen you can just put debian or even better..opensolaris on it :)
17:29.40Macerthose types of operating systems are meant for the underpowered portable market
17:29.44Firebirdbleh, solaris
17:29.58AStormslowlaris would choke
17:30.04Macerif you cant fit it in a pocket.. android and mer shouldnt be on it
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17:30.14MacerAStorm: i use opensolaris and it is great
17:30.30AStormdebian with tuned set of apps is better
17:30.36RST38hAStorm: Solaris adepts are saying they have fixed the PCI problem
17:30.36Macerfor what i do it is better than linux
17:30.38AStormMacer, 9n a netbook?
17:30.41RST38hSo it is fast now
17:30.43Maceron a server and desktop
17:30.46AStormRST38h, finally!
17:31.35MacerRST38h: they seem to have gotten stronger support from sun
17:31.45Macertheir pkging system is getting better
17:31.54Macerhardware support is getting better
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17:32.21Macerand to top it off... it has zfs. that alone makes it better than anything else :)
17:33.04AStormnot than btrfs
17:33.05AStormhaha
17:33.11Macerer
17:33.12AStormboth are oracle's now
17:33.33Macerunstable not released unusable in a stable enviroment btrfs? :)
17:33.48AStormdefine stable environment
17:34.04Maceruhm
17:34.14Maceri think that one is self defined
17:34.18AStormand btrfs is near 1.0
17:34.48AStorm(though not feature complete yet, but the basics are covered)
17:35.52AStorm(basics include RAID 0 and 1)
17:36.34MacerBtrfs is under heavy development, and is not suitable for any uses other than benchmarking and review. The Btrfs disk format is not yet finalized, but it will only be changed if a critical bug is found and no workarounds are possible
17:36.47AStormblah blah
17:37.02AStormI haven't seen any important bugs recently
17:37.07Macerlol. sorry buddy but zfs is tested and true
17:37.14AStormthat is right
17:37.22AStormbut it doesn't make it better :P
17:37.33Macersure it does
17:37.40AStormwhat makes is the raid-z and online fsck
17:37.51Macer:)
17:37.57AStorm(the performance otherwise is not that great)
17:38.14AStorm(but not lousy either)
17:38.44Maceri dunno. i get about 300MB/s
17:38.54AStormon what hardware :P
17:38.59Macerbut that is on an 8 port raid 5
17:39.02Macer:)
17:39.03AStormand workload :P
17:39.07AStormhaha.
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17:39.32AStormwell, I was able to max my SSD w/ btrfs
17:39.46AStormbut not with ext4 or zfs or ufs2
17:39.56AStormguess why
17:40.03Stskeepszfs is more suited for multiple devices really
17:40.13AStormtrue
17:40.18AStormit's its aim
17:40.25ShadowJKI am guessing you don't have a Intel SSD, or a OCZ Vertex
17:40.26Macerbecause btrfs is great?
17:40.30ShadowJKThey're about the only non-crap SSD
17:40.31Macer:)
17:40.42AStormShadowJK, uhm, not only
17:40.49AStormbut they are the best
17:40.56ShadowJKThe rest behave like an extreme case of harddrive, fast sequential speeds, brutally slow seeks
17:41.05Maceri figured ssd was more about access
17:41.09Macerthan speed
17:41.14AStormslow seeks? why?
17:41.23Macerno. fast seeks
17:41.30AStormthere's no seek time on flashn
17:41.35AStormor almost none
17:41.37ShadowJKMacer, yeah people think that, but it's only the intel and vertex series that actually have fast seeks
17:41.58AStormhow do you measure seek time on ssd? :P
17:42.00MacerShadowJK: thought it was due to faulty controllers
17:42.02AStormthere's no seek
17:42.09ShadowJKMacer, nah, it's more to it than that
17:42.28AStormif you're talking random write, then yes, many ssds fail
17:42.36mgedminrandom write latencies in thousand of milliseconds may not be "seeks", but they suck
17:42.39AStormthanks to block sizes
17:42.45AStormand too small cache
17:42.48mgedminI've got an asus eeepc 900 with two ssd, both are horribly slow
17:43.05RST38h<get a real laptop>
17:43.18AStormit has cheap ssd with no cache
17:43.22Macerwell. i am sure in an actual work env... the faster seeks are awesome
17:43.25mgedmintaps his thinkpad t61 on the side
17:43.25AStormand small block size
17:43.38mgedminthere's that classical anandtech article about SSDs
17:43.39RST38hT61.... <well, you know>
17:43.42mgedminrecommended reading
17:43.42AStormalso, ext3 is not optimized for ssd
17:43.45RST38hURL?
17:43.55mgedminhttp://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3531
17:43.57AStormfor blocks larger than its cluster size
17:44.03VDVsxGAN800, android development isn't restricted to java anymore
17:44.13AStormand it doesn't spread metadata
17:44.15mgedminext3 + asus eee 900's SSD's ("ASUS PHISON" something or other) + 3 months == dead SSD
17:44.19MacerVDVsx: lol
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17:44.24Macerlag? =)
17:44.24mgedminunreadable blocks where the ext3 journal used to live
17:44.28RST38hmgedmin: thanks
17:44.36AStormtrue
17:44.45AStormthat's why btrfs -o ssd wins
17:44.52AStormit spreads metadata
17:44.59AStormis copy-on-write
17:45.21GAN800VDVsx, yeah, but it still sucks.
17:45.31Maceri was waiting on more bullet points :)
17:45.44Macerwell... bbl
17:45.46VDVsxGAN800, sure, but you can now use python, lua, C, C++ at least :P
17:46.03ShadowJKThe real issue is that SSDs have native sector size of a megabyte or so. Harddrives have 512 byte sectors. So in the worst case if you just want to change 512 bytes on the SSD, the SSD itself will read a megabyte and write back a megabyte. In worst worst case, it will read back, erase original, write new modified megabyte. This slows it down
17:46.11ShadowJKIf you just write sequentially it's fine and fast :P
17:46.11MacerVDVsx: and install mer?
17:46.15Macer:)
17:46.16GAN800and Maemo still utterly kicks its ass
17:46.19AStormShadowJK, wrong
17:46.42AStormyou write it antisequentially
17:46.58MacerGAN800: but maemo isnt as pretty
17:47.02AStormthat is, split across as many eraseblocks as possible
17:47.07Macerwith accel docs
17:47.08Macerlol
17:47.10VDVsxMacer, mer is like java *runs anywhere* :P
17:47.11Macerbbl
17:47.18Macerhahaha
17:47.27MacerVDVsx: so they say
17:47.28ShadowJKAStorm, ah but most all SSDs are optimized for the sequential case, because that's the only thing that stupid reviewers and benchmarkers cared about
17:47.40AStormthen still
17:47.45Macergotta go
17:47.49AStormit won't matter
17:47.52VDVsxMacer, we can say the same about Mer :P, lol
17:47.52ShadowJKThe anandtech article is required reading :)
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17:48.53GAN800Macer, that statement is about as subjective as it gets.
17:49.01AStormthe whole trick is to not rewrite same block all the time
17:49.06ShadowJKbtw, it's highly unlikely ext3 or any other fs will gain any meaningful SSD optimizations... Linus basically said SSD manufacturers have to stop being asshats and Get it Right(TM), like Intel did.
17:49.12GAN800Jaffa, ping?
17:49.19AStormif the blocks are simply interleaved
17:49.27AStormit should be fast
17:49.39AStormsay, every 8K gets to another block
17:50.21Luke-JrShadowJK: wtf does that mean?
17:50.24AStormthen you'd know where to place file data to only touch a single block at a time
17:50.34ShadowJKLuke-Jr, read the anandtech article :P
17:50.38Luke-Jr…
17:51.29ShadowJKBut basically, Sandisk and other "shut up we're the big corporation here and WE will tell YOU how to work around our piece of shit hardware"-companies said that operating systems must learn how to deal with flash storage efficiently
17:52.04Luke-Jrmy only problem is lack of a direct MTD interface
17:53.14ShadowJKwell you wont be getting it on SSDs :)
17:53.26AStormwhy not
17:53.29ShadowJKThe best you'll get is trim
17:53.36AStormsome SATA extended command?
17:53.47ShadowJKAStorm, because people want them to be bootable in PCs and to act like SATA harddrives?
17:53.59AStormduhduh
17:53.59ShadowJKand because the Big Other operating system has no clue about raw flash?
17:54.03AStormadd a new command
17:54.12Luke-JrShadowJK: and they can't provide both interfaces?
17:54.15ShadowJKLuke-Jr, no
17:54.15AStormto address the flash linearly w/o ftl
17:54.23AStormsure they can
17:54.27AStormbut it costs
17:54.35ShadowJKAStorm, the linear flash makes no sense to you
17:54.53ShadowJKbecause a stream of random writes will be written linearly to the flash :)
17:54.54AStormand certain important OSes don't support anything
17:54.55ShadowJKby the smart firmware
17:55.07Luke-JrShadowJK: you use either or
17:55.07AStormno no
17:55.12AStormyou don't get it
17:55.23AStormI said an extended command to bypass FTL
17:55.27Luke-Jrheck, it'd be acceptable to have a replacement firmware
17:55.30AStormand have blocks in orde
17:55.32AStormr
17:55.37Luke-Jrflash that firmware and you get MTD only
17:55.47AStormmuch like "disable ftl" command
17:55.59AStormanother to get the block size
17:56.20ShadowJKAStorm, yeah but you'd have to make a choice to always use either, you couldn't change between the two wihout a complete reformat
17:56.21AStormand then the OS can work with it
17:56.31AStormtrue
17:56.39AStormbut the FS would be flash-based
17:56.54AStormwith its own update layer
17:56.56ShadowJKLuke-Jr, only place you'd want it is on the cheap SSDs, but the're too cheap to innovate anyway.. :(
17:57.01AStormso not vfat
17:57.03AStorm:P
17:57.21ShadowJKDude, the cheap SSDs were designed for VFAT :-)
17:57.21AStormthe problem is... partitioning
17:57.44Luke-JrShadowJK: why the cheap SSDs only?
17:57.58AStormbut unless the block is huge, the extended command could accept a range of values
17:58.00Luke-Jrthe filesystem layer is smarter than FTL
17:58.27ShadowJKLuke-Jr, because VFAT is in the spec for MMC, SD and such, and cheap SSDs are, internally, basically a big array of MMC/SD chips in raid-0 configuration
17:58.43Luke-JrAStorm: I think UBD makes partitioning MTD ok?
17:59.11Luke-JrShadowJK: [12:56:56] <ShadowJK> Luke-Jr, only place you'd want it is on the cheap SSDs, but the're too cheap to innovate anyway.. ☹
17:59.26Stskeepsinteresting, fremantle home has different views
18:00.26ShadowJKAnyway... on the cheap SSDs their performance is so predictable/measurable that you can experimentally trivially determine the erase block size and other parameters that matter, and optimize your fs for that
18:01.02ShadowJKthere's, however, no fs suitable for it... and likely there wont be any either, as newer SSDs wont be as crippled, hopefully.
18:01.18ShadowJKnilfs2 and LogFS might come close to running nicely
18:01.38*** join/#maemo xdx (n=any@ppp91-77-167-106.pppoe.mtu-net.ru)
18:01.41ShadowJKAnd it would be interesting if someone compared this on maemo with boot from SD, compared ext2/3 vs LogFS, for example :)
18:03.24ShadowJKhttp://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/91.ogg <- this is a nice presentation on LogFS and the author touches on some of the "issues" and structures of flash storage :)
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18:08.51AStormLuke-Jr, I
18:09.02Luke-JrAStorm: You
18:09.11AStormwas talking about the SATA ranged switch
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18:09.25AStormto disable some blocks from being FTLed
18:09.37johnsqHi
18:09.59johnsqslonopotamus: do you need my patches for evtouch?
18:10.40pupnik_any of you run ethernet over isdn telco cabling?
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18:13.57AStormactually, copy-on-write is excellent on pure flash
18:16.41AStorma good flash controller would do garbage collection from time to time
18:17.12AStormhave a separate block of NOR flash to store data about pages marked as free
18:17.23AStormand consolidate
18:17.44Luke-Jr…
18:17.50Luke-Jrwhy not just free them ASAP?
18:17.59AStormbecause you can't
18:18.09AStormthnatg requires rewriting a whole block
18:18.13AStormwhich is slow
18:18.24AStormso hide it from the user
18:18.35AStormdo it on idle
18:20.42AStormthis is where the TRIM comes in
18:20.57AStormto inform the drive about emptied pages
18:21.26Luke-Jrnotices this is the same "problem" that originated with CD-RWs
18:22.15ShadowJKLuke-Jr, oh, yeah, CD-RW is kinda similar :)
18:22.56ShadowJKThough these days you could actually run ext2 on DVD+RW :P
18:23.15JaffaGAN800: pong
18:23.25ShadowJKhm
18:23.35ShadowJKwonders how LogFS on DVD+RW would perform :-)
18:23.59Luke-Jryou can run ext2 on raw flash too
18:24.03Luke-Jrbut it's not the best idea
18:24.10ShadowJKslow :P
18:24.19Luke-Jrand DVD+RW isn't slow? :þ
18:24.28ShadowJKsure
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18:26.13ShadowJKSo if you make a fs that runs fast on DVD+RW, it'll be fast on cheap SSD and on SD/MMC too :)
18:26.36Luke-Jrexactly
18:27.25AStormShadowJK, or btrfs
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18:27.38AStormbtrfs is copy-on-write, so should be fast
18:27.50Luke-Jris it?
18:27.54Luke-Jrto what degree? ☺
18:28.13Luke-JrI think Subversion would make for an excellent FS
18:28.14AStormI think this includes metadata
18:28.27AStormno, it's read-only metadata
18:28.34Luke-Jr…
18:28.41AStormso you'd lose space
18:28.56AStormthat's why git can't be used as a fs
18:28.59Luke-Jr⁇?
18:29.07AStormunless you garbage collect old metadata
18:29.19AStorm(and commits)
18:29.21Luke-Jrwhy?
18:29.33AStormyou'll run out of space
18:29.38Luke-Jreventually
18:29.45AStormon updates
18:29.46Luke-Jrbut I don't really want my FS deleting data on me anyway
18:29.53AStormeven if you delete a file
18:30.17Luke-Jrmaybe if I tell it explicitly
18:30.25AStormbtw, logfs is exactly what you describe
18:30.30Luke-Jrperhaps an automatic cleanup that retains tags
18:30.44AStormplus grbage collection (very old versions are dropped)
18:31.03ShadowJKnilfs2 retains data... or rather, it retains snapshots :)
18:31.10AStormyes
18:33.06AStormsame idea
18:33.06ShadowJKAnd there are tools so you can get it back too
18:33.06ShadowJKI don't think logfs has this yet
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18:33.09Luke-Jrbut do either have cheap copies?
18:33.10AStormsure yes
18:33.11AStormoverwrite is same as copy
18:33.12ShadowJKyou mean cp -a sourcetree1 sourcetree2 resulting in near-zero space used until you go changing files in sourcetree2?
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18:33.12AStormthat's the cost
18:33.12AStormwell, almost
18:33.22Luke-JrShadowJK: yeah
18:33.33Luke-JrShadowJK: and *fast*
18:33.34ShadowJKLuke-Jr, I don't think so
18:33.37AStormoverwrite also stores the modified blocks
18:33.47AStormmuch like git's deltas
18:33.59AStormthis is ln
18:34.03ShadowJKLuke-Jr, astorm is talking about what happens physically when you modify a single file
18:34.04Luke-JrShadowJK: also, Subversion's format makes for simple backups
18:34.07AStormhardlink
18:34.35Luke-JrAStorm: hardlink + CoW is what I mean
18:34.49AStormhmm
18:35.01AStormI'd have to checl
18:35.03AStorm*check
18:35.14AStormnote that new metadata has to be added
18:35.39AStorma bit funny in extent-based system
18:36.28AStormbut not impossible
18:37.07AStormbtrfs has bcp to do this afaik
18:37.25AStormnormal cp still does a full copy
18:37.39AStormsnapshots can be CoW
18:37.59AStormI suspect they may switch all copies to this scheme
18:38.15AStormor provide an option
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18:50.42Stskeepstimeless_mbp: what was your l10n url again for the mer packages?
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18:53.16Stskeepsnm, found it
18:53.42Stskeepsarh.
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20:05.11VDVsxinfobot, wtf
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20:16.57RST38h"A company called PolyPlus has developed lithium metal-air batteries that have 10 times the energy density of regular lithium-ion batteries."
20:17.11RST38hAnyone else sees TROUBLE there?
20:18.18Stskeeps<PROTECTED>
20:18.19Luke-Jrwhy?
20:18.19ShadowJKRST38h, is that a news article that has been rewritten and quoted 10 times so that "power density" has turned into "energy density", or is it straight from sauce?
20:18.42RST38hShadow: If you can call Slashdot "the source"...
20:18.51Luke-JrLOL
20:19.18RST38hBut yes, it just has "kaboom" written all over
20:20.25ShadowJKAh, the company claims theoretical energy density is similar to that of gasoline
20:20.53Luke-Jrhow about replacing the battery with a wireless energy collector? ;)
20:20.59Luke-Jruse the ambient energy in the area
20:21.18pupnikkookery on youtube
20:21.19RST38hYea, right
20:21.25RST38hBeam it from orbit
20:21.33pupnikzero-point energy
20:21.37ShadowJKLuke-Jr, you know, energy companies have actually successfully sued people who wirelessly leeched off of their transmission lines
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20:22.20Luke-JrShadowJK: uh... I didn't say off lines ;)
20:22.25Luke-Jrjust ambient energy in the air
20:22.37ShadowJKYes but that energy is radiated from something :)
20:22.59ShadowJKanyway, that approach has the same problem as using existing Zinc-air batteries, which have superior energy density... no power :)
20:23.03ShadowJKor insufficient power
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20:23.23RST38hzinc batteries are pretty good, for watches
20:23.27_Mayito_hi all
20:23.38ShadowJKfor low power drain
20:24.02_Mayito_someone can help me to flash my nokia n810 please?\
20:24.18ShadowJKThis is also the thing about Nokia's "ambient energy collection" device... the power it can provide is barely sufficient to keep the phone idling
20:24.22ShadowJK~flashing
20:24.22infoboti guess flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
20:24.29suihkulokkiShadowJK: I was told someone in .fi dug a coil under a transmission line and used it to power his garden lights
20:24.34RST38hAmbient energy stuff is mostly fake
20:24.37ShadowJKsuihkulokki, yeah :-)
20:24.40RST38hBut wireless power transmission is not
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20:25.02RST38hsuihkulokki: Sometimes you do not even need a coil
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20:25.07pupnikhighlighting text in browser is broken for me
20:25.17pupniksometimes i hilight. sometimes i pan
20:25.21ShadowJKRST38h, well it's a zero-sum game.. you're leeching off of someone else :-)
20:25.24pupnikimpossible.
20:25.48RST38hpupnik: tell us something new =)
20:25.59RST38hShadow: That I have no personal problem with
20:26.01suihkulokkiaccording to the story, they couldn't find a way to sue him, but they guy worked for a company owned by the power grid company which then promptly fired him :P
20:26.09ShadowJKLike those "kinetic plates" that some supermarket in the UK was going to install in the parking lot to "go green and renewable". Cars and people moving over the kinetic plating generate electricity
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20:26.27RST38hShadow: Nevertheless, unless you have a really powerful source there is nothing to leech
20:26.30pupnikRST38h, if device had shoulder buttons, one could be used to toggle pan/hilight
20:26.53ShadowJKBUT, that energy comes from the people (who in turn get it through this expensive sun -> plant -> animal -> processing -> processing -> processing -> microwave -> food chain), or from gasoline in the case of cars :P
20:27.03ShadowJKso the supermarket essentially leeches energy from its customers :)
20:27.12RST38hpupnik: you can do it with multitoch or limited multitouch
20:27.23ShadowJKand it's not at all "renewable" or green until everyone is driving on green/renewable energy
20:27.29pupnikk.  it needs fixing
20:27.35RST38hpupnik: i.e. holding left bottom screen corner and selecting text with the second finger
20:27.47ShadowJKfrankly I wish the touchscreen would just emulate a laptop touchpad.. would work fine :P
20:27.47pupnikhmm
20:28.03lcukpupnik, the multitouch example i give would allow that - but selecting text would be hard
20:28.09lcukit should be used on large ui elements really ;)
20:28.13RST38hShadow: You ever use laptop touchpad for mouse clicks?
20:28.27ShadowJKand if you hold bottom left screen corner... why not have a button slightly below bottom left screen corner so you don't cover content on the screen :P
20:28.38lcukShadowJK, because existing devices dont
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20:28.41lcuktwotouch works
20:28.49ShadowJKRST38h, yes. And click+drag. Without the physical buttons
20:28.50RST38hShadow: Because n8x0 do not have such a button
20:28.57lcukthe bottom corner can theoretically and practically act as a CTRL key modifyer
20:29.04ShadowJKI can use it fine and I don't even have a laptop, heh
20:29.06RST38hShadow: You are abnormal then :)
20:29.14RST38hnever uses touchpads for clicks
20:29.24ThatOneGuydoes anyone know how I can compile some code on my n770? I keep getting errors like "make: arm-linux-gcc: Command not found"
20:29.46ShadowJKthe touchpad click-hold-and-drag tap-sequence on touchpads is easier to accomplish than tap-and-hold on N8x0..
20:29.51RST38hThat: Maybe you do not have gcc installed? =)
20:29.58ShadowJKI guess mostly because of lacking sensitivity on the touchscreen :)
20:30.08lcukThatOneGuy, thar be dragons, but clean off your respositories to only standard nokia ones, then find the SDK repository on maemo.org respositories for your OS
20:30.13lcukand add that to apt
20:30.42_Mayito_someone can help me to flash my nokia n810 please?
20:30.54pupnikalso need to have your dev filesystem on sd ThatOneGuy
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20:31.29ThatOneGuypupnik: can I not put it on a usb drive?
20:31.36pupnik_Mayito_, maemo.org has howto
20:31.37lcukpupnik, only if no freespace left
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20:31.45lcukThatOneGuy, no
20:32.22ThatOneGuylcuk, really? I guess Im stuck using scratchbox...
20:32.32_Mayito_pupnik: Thank you I've already read it, but still I have some questions
20:32.35lcuksuch hardships
20:32.39lcukhaving a whole sdk available
20:33.09ThatOneGuywell it'd be ok if I could get my kernel module to compile properly
20:33.23lcukyou oculd probably never get a kernel built on device anyway
20:33.31lcukeven with an updated device
20:33.45lcukit needs more than just gcc
20:33.49lcukand make
20:33.56ThatOneGuyawe lame
20:33.59RST38hsuihkulokki,ShadowJK: Here, enjoy: http://hacknmod.com/hack/field-of-fluorescent-tubes-powered-by-ambient-current/
20:34.25lcukThatOneGuy, whats lame about it?
20:34.30lcukand why do you need a new kernel?
20:34.51ThatOneGuyI dont. I need to compile an external kernel module
20:34.58pupnik_Mayito_, feel free to ask, man
20:35.59RST38hEhheheheheheheee
20:36.06RST38hOk, guys, you will absolutely love it:
20:36.10RST38h"Android developers can now slip native code into apps written for Android-based devices using Google's new native development kit (NDK)."
20:36.25pupnik...
20:36.59_Mayito_pupnik: I decided to flash the OS to the internal memory card, I think there is plenty space to hold the OS and all the software I need, so I just followed the little tutorial up to the partitioning part ... I did even already partitioned my internal flash card
20:37.21pupnikk
20:37.42ShadowJKRST38h, but do they get root access? :)
20:37.53lcukthey will soon
20:37.54RST38hShadow: No idea, although you are welcome to try
20:37.58lcukactivex here we come!
20:38.03_Mayito_pupnik: although, my question is, the little tutorial asks you to format those two new partitions, which I did it
20:38.12ShadowJKeh don't want to, maemo already gives me access :P
20:38.20ShadowJKisn't that keen on fighting with tivo-ized devices
20:38.28_Mayito_my question is, which partition should I have mounted before the flashing ?
20:38.46ShadowJKRST38h, yeah that guy is leeching power from the power company :)
20:39.09RST38hShadow: For artistic purposes, no more no less =)
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20:43.07*** topic/#maemo is Welcome to #maemo | http://maemo.org | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | Maemo Summit 2009: Call for Content Now Open! -> http://tinyurl.com/mvbcdy
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20:45.03pupnik_Mayito_, can you paste the url of the howto you are using, and tell us which step you are at?
20:46.10ThatOneGuyso... file returns '...version 1 (ARM)..' for the modules that work, but returns '...version 1 (SYSV)..' for the one I've compiled. Anyone know why?
20:46.44pupnikheh
20:46.55pupnikat&t strikes
20:47.33ThatOneGuyoh no
20:48.03pupniki think fanoush compiled some kernels/modules
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20:49.53ThatOneGuyerr, I don't know who that is
20:52.08pupniknoob
20:52.39pupniksorry, just wasting your time - google
20:54.04ThatOneGuylooks like all the modules he compiled are for 800/810
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22:37.28Maikuhi, I'm trying to install compat-wireless-old on my n810, but having some issues compiling it, would this be the right place to ask?
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22:39.11pupnikor contact package maintainer
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22:45.27Macerlol
22:45.34Macerwhat did i say
22:45.49Macernow you have all the michael jackson death exploiters
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22:45.58Macercoming out the woodwork
22:46.28b-man16where did this subject come from? xD
22:46.40Macerall the ones that abandoned him when he was charged with baby raping
22:47.41Maceri wonder how long it will take for some fake ass hollywood singer to dedicate a concert or album to him
22:47.48Macermaybe a day?
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22:51.18Maikuwhen I try compiling wireless-compat-old, it complains about missing config.mk in /lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/build in scratchbox
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