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| 00:22.52 | xnt14 | ~seen b-man16 |
| 00:22.53 | infobot | b-man16 <n=b-man@pool-71-124-32-204.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 3h 46m 46s ago, saying: 'lol'. |
| 00:23.05 | xnt14 | well, he died :P |
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| 00:31.42 | xnt14 | brb |
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| 00:33.33 | nobody19 | hey, does anyone want to play a game? |
| 00:33.50 | Proteous | funny, the only way to win is not to play |
| 00:33.58 | Proteous | how about a nice game of chess |
| 00:34.14 | nobody19 | if you do, please go to #yandere |
| 00:34.20 | nobody19 | we need peoploe |
| 00:34.30 | nobody19 | *people |
| 00:35.31 | LinuxCode | Proteous, you watch too many films |
| 00:35.33 | LinuxCode | rofl |
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| 00:45.55 | Proteous | heh |
| 00:45.58 | Proteous | that's a good one though |
| 00:46.47 | Proteous | I have an unhealthy knowledge of movies that involve computers |
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| 01:14.23 | nobody19 | if xnt14 is still here, we're starting a game |
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| 03:20.25 | qkall | Hey im having an issue with canola... |
| 03:20.33 | qkall | I wasnt... |
| 03:20.48 | qkall | Now its saying it cant find libeina |
| 03:21.06 | zakkm | qkall: what version? |
| 03:21.14 | zakkm | trying to install it? |
| 03:21.19 | qkall | And i cant find it to download diablo |
| 03:21.29 | zakkm | you dont have diablo? |
| 03:21.53 | qkall | Now sorry im not being clear |
| 03:21.58 | qkall | I have diablo |
| 03:22.12 | qkall | And im trying to install libeina for canola |
| 03:22.15 | qkall | Or |
| 03:22.34 | qkall | If i can get the default ;edia player more codecs |
| 03:22.40 | zakkm | is extras repository installed? |
| 03:22.46 | qkall | Yessum |
| 03:22.48 | zakkm | in my opinion, you should use mplayer |
| 03:23.00 | zakkm | which wil llist all the videos, when you open it ( opens like instantly ) and then you just click on filename |
| 03:23.05 | zakkm | it has like a list |
| 03:23.10 | qkall | Well im trying to access my shared folders.. |
| 03:23.52 | zakkm | do you have extras-devel ? |
| 03:24.15 | zakkm | onesec ill get you the deb |
| 03:24.42 | zakkm | http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/libeina0.install should do |
| 03:25.33 | zakkm | wait deb package would be better |
| 03:25.56 | qkall | Well thats somethimg else i need installed... |
| 03:26.13 | qkall | But i know i can (i hope) figure that out.. |
| 03:26.25 | qkall | But thats :) |
| 03:26.32 | qkall | Thanks** |
| 03:26.44 | zakkm | like i would of thought it would be in extras, but its definitely in extras-devel |
| 03:26.45 | qkall | Still getting used to this thing |
| 03:27.01 | zakkm | which is a totally different repository, unless you just want to download the deb of libeina and then install that |
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| 03:31.27 | qkall | I may have to come back for a link |
| 03:31.38 | qkall | Need to close some things |
| 03:31.46 | qkall | Thanks again |
| 03:32.26 | zakkm | yw :) |
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| 04:23.38 | qkall | Back |
| 04:23.54 | qkall | Now its failing to install libeina |
| 04:24.02 | qkall | :/ |
| 04:24.44 | qkall | "Application package not found" |
| 04:25.10 | qkall | Even tho i double checked maemo extra dev is installed |
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| 04:30.53 | GenKreton__ | on my n810 I used to be able to call up the finger keyboard when the physical one wasn't slid out, and when it was slid out, it wouldn't come up, now it ALWAYS comes up, how do I get the old behavior back? |
| 04:30.59 | qkall | Ok i determined that the link is broken... But i cant find the original to link. |
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| 04:31.41 | qkall | Well imight be able to point you right |
| 04:31.57 | qkall | In the vontrol panel |
| 04:32.23 | qkall | Theres a text portion and thatll have that |
| 04:33.59 | GenKreton__ | hmm |
| 04:34.10 | GenKreton__ | i think i've tried all combos :( |
| 04:34.29 | GenKreton__ | (nothing mentions disable while keyboard is slid out or the likes) |
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| 04:34.52 | qkall | Oh i see what your saying--- |
| 04:35.10 | qkall | Not sure... New to this device |
| 04:35.44 | GenKreton__ | ahh :( thanks though |
| 04:36.12 | qkall | I mean if you havent already google might help.. |
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| 04:43.13 | qkall | Well imma just reflash the bitch |
| 04:43.36 | qkall | Cant figure it out and luckily havent done anything i cant do again |
| 04:43.42 | qkall | God speed. |
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| 04:48.13 | jwooff | hi, I just removed chinok and mozilla from my apt sources, then did apt-get update && apt-get upgrade. later I shut it down, and now when I start it up it boots fully, then reboots about 2 seconds after the desktop is shown |
| 04:48.36 | jwooff | it just keeps rebooting until I pull the battery |
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| 04:50.12 | jwooff | each time I see the desktop briefly, see the flashing exclamation that means there are updates available, then the blue light comes on, and it blacks out and reboots just as the blue light finishes fading |
| 04:50.53 | jwooff | anything I can do? or do I have to reflash? |
| 04:51.21 | jwooff | there a way to boot into a different runlevel or something? |
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| 05:26.05 | man_in_shack | looks around |
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| 05:38.14 | Proteous | is your shack insulated? |
| 05:40.24 | jwooff | nm about my rebooting, I reflashed |
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| 05:44.12 | Proteous | averts his eyes to jwooff's flashing |
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| 05:48.08 | man_in_shack | i'm wondering if anyone has tried vgb or ines on the n810 |
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| 06:33.27 | qkall | Ok i got a libeinas0 issue... |
| 06:33.36 | qkall | Reflashed still issues |
| 06:34.36 | qkall | I think ive determined that the link to libeinas.0.so is broken |
| 06:35.04 | qkall | But im used to it being in /usr/lib |
| 06:35.15 | qkall | Well in general... |
| 06:35.30 | qkall | I just cant find it :( |
| 06:42.04 | qkall | No one? I just want to use canola again... |
| 06:50.25 | qkall | Lol 225 people and nothing... If only google would help |
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| 07:26.34 | woglinde_ice | hi |
| 07:26.45 | woglinde_ice | ircing at 200 km/h |
| 07:28.32 | Stskeeps | while driving? ;) |
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| 07:34.27 | woglinde_ice | stskeep lol |
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| 07:47.34 | woglinde_ice | <PROTECTED> |
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| 08:15.43 | aquatix | morning all |
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| 09:07.18 | lbt | gnuton: morning.... |
| 09:07.30 | gnuton | hello lbt |
| 09:07.38 | lbt | had server probs yesterday! |
| 09:07.51 | lbt | all sorted now |
| 09:08.01 | lbt | ready to git going |
| 09:08.01 | gnuton | lbt: okay |
| 09:08.09 | lbt | <grin> |
| 09:08.54 | lcukx41 | <groan> |
| 09:09.02 | gnuton | lbt: I finished to split all the patches |
| 09:09.15 | lbt | hard isn't it |
| 09:09.24 | gnuton | and I'm sketching the rep now |
| 09:10.10 | gnuton | yeah, splitting our changes in several patches is a very annoyng.. |
| 09:11.05 | gnuton | now it's time to cross my fingers and pray |
| 09:11.19 | lbt | hmm |
| 09:11.27 | gnuton | having different branches can make a lot of troubles |
| 09:11.32 | lbt | is it worth doing a test-run somewhere? |
| 09:11.35 | gnuton | when you apply several patches |
| 09:12.09 | lbt | yes, the risk of collisions and doing it in order -- but I think git makes that easier |
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| 09:12.35 | gnuton | lbt.. mmm I hope that! |
| 09:12.49 | lbt | is it worth numbering the branches? |
| 09:12.57 | lbt | just so that when we merge |
| 09:13.03 | lbt | we're always consistent? |
| 09:13.23 | gnuton | the problem is that some branches are dependent from other branches |
| 09:13.30 | lbt | yes |
| 09:13.37 | lbt | so numbering will help |
| 09:14.28 | gnuton | I m not sure that numbering that resolve that issue. |
| 09:15.27 | gnuton | I think that gitk give a good understanding of the branches organization |
| 09:15.32 | lbt | I guess when we hit a problem in merging |
| 09:15.34 | gnuton | or for now my sketch |
| 09:15.43 | lbt | we have to resolve it in the branches themselves |
| 09:15.43 | gnuton | a ok. |
| 09:16.16 | lbt | sure... are you doing the sketch like mine ? or that online one you mentioned? |
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| 09:16.27 | gnuton | yes. I'm doing it |
| 09:16.39 | gnuton | phone.. se you in some minutes |
| 09:16.42 | gnuton | e |
| 09:16.43 | gnuton | se |
| 09:17.07 | lbt | l8r |
| 09:19.33 | lcukx41 | lbt: scaling on scrolling needs more work, i was not as impressed when i put it in place, but that might just be implementation |
| 09:20.04 | lbt | speed vary left-to right ? |
| 09:20.27 | lcukx41 | as scrolling through i panned out the entire list slightly |
| 09:20.33 | lcukx41 | based on speed of scrolling |
| 09:20.40 | lbt | OK |
| 09:20.49 | lbt | what happened? |
| 09:21.04 | lcukx41 | so instead of seeing N items it saw N*1.4 or whatever based on speed |
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| 09:21.08 | lbt | you need to keep the speed the same you know |
| 09:21.09 | lcukx41 | it kinda worked |
| 09:21.14 | lbt | and just scale |
| 09:21.18 | lcukx41 | but it didnt help |
| 09:21.23 | lbt | so you get more items/sec |
| 09:21.29 | lbt | but same pixels/sec |
| 09:21.38 | lcukx41 | it didnt look right tho |
| 09:21.43 | lcukx41 | it was more disconcerting |
| 09:21.54 | lbt | fair enough |
| 09:22.18 | lcukx41 | it appeared to work better on image lists - the one with all the heads worked best, but on a general list it was useless |
| 09:23.06 | lcukx41 | was worth it just for a try :) it can be restored and tweaked and tested more in future |
| 09:23.56 | lcukx41 | i even tried zooming in slightly |
| 09:24.10 | lcukx41 | it gave a generic overshoot effect |
| 09:24.21 | lcukx41 | but i ripped that out as well lol |
| 09:24.48 | lbt | heh ... good to play with |
| 09:24.56 | lbt | should do a video |
| 09:25.11 | lcukx41 | wasnt worth it for that one, ive left the code block there commented out |
| 09:25.36 | lcukx41 | its inthe one central rendering function, it just said "if in kinetics change render scale by $expr" |
| 09:26.37 | lcukx41 | how many patches does it look like you need for qt |
| 09:27.37 | lbt | I don't know... it depends how fine-grained antonio does it |
| 09:28.17 | lcukx41 | heh, you are totally riht about git tho, would be more hassle trying to do this a few years ago |
| 09:28.22 | lcukx41 | right ^ |
| 09:29.12 | *** join/#maemo rkirti (n=rkirti@117.254.8.245) |
| 09:30.31 | lcukx41 | lbt: we know qt creates nice cross platform apps, but at present they are all standalone x11 apps and need the x11 compositor to bring them together |
| 09:31.12 | lcukx41 | i know its possible to create your apps as user controls, but that takes planning at the start of the app stage i gather |
| 09:31.43 | lcukx41 | for instance, you couldnt just pick up shopper and integrate that in a .so and use multi instances of it could you? or can you? |
| 09:31.58 | lbt | no |
| 09:32.08 | lbt | but there is another wa |
| 09:32.09 | lbt | y |
| 09:32.12 | *** join/#maemo amr (n=amr@0-1d-7d-c6-79-a1.tr.esol.dur.ac.uk) |
| 09:32.25 | lbt | it's called an OS <grin> |
| 09:32.54 | lbt | (and I'm fairly serious) |
| 09:32.55 | lcukx41 | yeah, but look at iphone and pre and andriod, their apps exist within an app framework |
| 09:33.08 | lbt | yeah, but this is not a good thing |
| 09:33.16 | lbt | it is a bad, bad thing |
| 09:33.32 | lcukx41 | someone mntioned on a different topic about how most of his java apps on a different platform are all integrated into one process |
| 09:33.59 | lbt | exactly |
| 09:34.21 | *** join/#maemo adeel (n=adeel@c-67-174-36-109.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 09:34.27 | lbt | the OS should handle multiple apps |
| 09:34.30 | lbt | and IPC |
| 09:34.31 | lcukx41 | ie the email app and the contacts app and the camera app are all together and dont have the x11 boundary |
| 09:35.01 | lbt | in which case an 'app framework' is an OS... |
| 09:35.05 | lbt | that's what an OS does |
| 09:35.37 | lbt | can the contacts app just read the camera app data? |
| 09:36.12 | lcukx41 | i dunno, was just observation and enlightenment |
| 09:36.31 | lcukx41 | i was trying to work out what was different in their implementations than linux in general |
| 09:36.48 | lcukx41 | and its the same principle as liqbase lol |
| 09:37.35 | lbt | I suppose it's an FYI that some of the things you discuss are normally handled by an OS |
| 09:37.41 | lcukx41 | and in the scenario you mentioned, yeah contacts should just be able to get at either an instance of the camera app, or the recent photos or something |
| 09:37.44 | lbt | and whilst you can bypass the OS |
| 09:37.52 | lbt | you should know why |
| 09:38.01 | *** join/#maemo ttmrichter (n=ttmricht@59.172.141.28) |
| 09:38.08 | lbt | so if they can "get at" each other |
| 09:38.08 | lcukx41 | yeah i know, theres big issues with a single process arch |
| 09:38.13 | lbt | you have security issues |
| 09:38.32 | lbt | and these days you just gave a virus full access |
| 09:38.48 | lbt | not only to contacts |
| 09:38.57 | lbt | but to the framework too |
| 09:39.29 | lcukx41 | every single app you install has the capability at present to do whatever it wants |
| 09:39.41 | lbt | not in linux |
| 09:39.54 | lbt | no linux app can modify another app's binary |
| 09:39.58 | lcukx41 | app-manager here lets you install anything |
| 09:40.07 | lbt | when run by a user |
| 09:40.07 | lcukx41 | and can install root apps |
| 09:40.19 | lcukx41 | or sudoers lines |
| 09:40.34 | lbt | heh... and now you understand the issue there |
| 09:40.49 | lbt | drive-by installs.... |
| 09:41.11 | lcukx41 | i know its there, which is why a good validation process for extras is important |
| 09:41.23 | lbt | OTOH "please install this pretty screensaver as root... thanks" |
| 09:41.30 | lcukx41 | and getting rid of random repos where possible |
| 09:41.51 | lcukx41 | this is the similar issue you were on about for adding stuff to os repos |
| 09:41.59 | lcukx41 | obs ^ |
| 09:42.00 | lbt | yes |
| 09:42.15 | lcukx41 | i agree entirely :) |
| 09:42.51 | lbt | now liqbase introduces another mechanism by which you can "install" things |
| 09:42.53 | lcukx41 | so if you have 50000000 validated apps in the same framework that are trusted by human peer validation it can work well |
| 09:43.00 | RST38h | moo lcuk |
| 09:43.07 | lcukx41 | its just the same as the hildon-desktop applets |
| 09:43.13 | lcukx41 | but they are more integrated |
| 09:43.16 | lcukx41 | hiya RST38h |
| 09:43.39 | lbt | this is just food for thought, not right/wrong |
| 09:43.44 | lcukx41 | lbt, the best security is watching out for each others backs |
| 09:43.47 | lcukx41 | yeah |
| 09:44.03 | lcukx41 | there will never be one single perfect way to protect against everything |
| 09:44.09 | lbt | and I'm pointing out areas where you don't need to do "the same .so" |
| 09:44.18 | lbt | and in fact if you don't do that |
| 09:44.27 | lbt | you have to use an IPC solution |
| 09:44.39 | lbt | and if you use IPC you need decent APIs |
| 09:44.52 | lbt | but that then lets you run one liqbase app on another tablet |
| 09:44.56 | mavhc | can an app alter its own binary? |
| 09:45.06 | lcukx41 | depends on location mav |
| 09:45.07 | lbt | and use a network IPC and the same API |
| 09:45.28 | lbt | mavhc: in general not the on-disk image, but it can self-modify |
| 09:46.03 | lcukx41 | on x86 thats even prevented now isnt it |
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| 09:46.18 | lcukx41 | so you can only modify non executable memory blocks or something |
| 09:46.33 | RST38h | IT BOOTS! |
| 09:46.36 | RST38h | IT'S ALIVE |
| 09:46.38 | lbt | there are some solutions |
| 09:46.41 | qwerty12 | lcukx41: That DEP gobshite? |
| 09:46.52 | lcukx41 | yeah |
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| 09:47.14 | qwerty12 | Turned off here, fucks with my download speeds |
| 09:47.23 | lcukx41 | mmm shouldnt really? |
| 09:47.42 | lcukx41 | unless you were modifying browser code with direct downloads |
| 09:47.58 | lcukx41 | maybe microsofts' implementation was suboptimal |
| 09:48.21 | mavhc | more like he's talking bollocks |
| 09:48.30 | lcukx41 | me or qwerty lol |
| 09:48.37 | mavhc | qwerty12 |
| 09:48.56 | qwerty12 | Meh, I found it work after reading on the internet |
| 09:49.00 | qwerty12 | +to |
| 09:49.39 | lcukx41 | dep is just a mechanism to stop a process modifying the running code to prevent hijacking |
| 09:51.28 | mavhc | someone said buffer overflows are due to having the stack grow down in memory |
| 09:53.21 | lbt | so lsmod tells me what loadable modules (cf drivers) are installed and their deps. How do I see what compiled in 'modules' are present and if they're in use? |
| 09:57.52 | lcukx41 | i dunno lbt |
| 09:57.57 | lcukx41 | omg 13 people on the iss |
| 09:58.05 | lcukx41 | with all that weight wont it fall down |
| 09:58.44 | mavhc | mass |
| 09:59.04 | lcukx41 | ok then |
| 09:59.13 | lcukx41 | with all that mass wont it fall down ;) |
| 09:59.50 | lcukx41 | does anyone here think they will get into space? |
| 09:59.55 | lcukx41 | hopes he does oneday |
| 10:00.07 | mavhc | also wont means likely |
| 10:01.10 | mavhc | space possibly, orbit, more unlikely |
| 10:01.42 | mavhc | problem is energy prices don't drop |
| 10:02.45 | mavhc | get some of those life extension drugs and maybe |
| 10:03.22 | lcukx41 | root of the tree-of-life |
| 10:04.09 | mavhc | if you're willing to take untested drugs you're fine, but testing them would seem to take many years |
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| 10:04.46 | lcukx41 | you can test them quickly, but you dont know the long term results lol |
| 10:05.27 | mavhc | they can make mice live 30% longer |
| 10:06.09 | lcukx41 | lucky mice |
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| 10:12.13 | lcukx41 | is it just me or is ubuntu default x-chat somewhat watered down version |
| 10:12.44 | qwerty12 | You're using gnome-xchat |
| 10:12.51 | lcukx41 | ye |
| 10:12.51 | qwerty12 | Uninstall that shit and install the real one |
| 10:13.36 | lcukx41 | that would imply doing something about it lol im just using whats provided |
| 10:14.50 | lcukx41 | qwerty12: have you looked at the java framework thing bman has been flashing around |
| 10:15.26 | lcukx41 | or has it just been noise |
| 10:15.47 | qwerty12 | Me? I don't know javascript |
| 10:17.36 | lcukx41 | i know that |
| 10:17.53 | qwerty12 | So, why would I have a need for it? :) |
| 10:18.43 | lcukx41 | you wouldnt for now lol, was just seeing if your curiosity made you look |
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| 11:43.35 | lcuk | is there a command to add an entry to debian/changelog |
| 11:43.55 | lcuk | without havign to manually go in and mess - like a git commit line? |
| 11:45.33 | GeneralAntilles | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:46.42 | lcuk | ill check, ta if it does GeneralAntilles |
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| 12:30.23 | markc | is there a simple obvious trick to get the network working with the 4.1 Intrepid sdk in virtualbox? |
| 12:31.54 | crashanddie | markc, check /etc/resolv.conf |
| 12:33.53 | markc | crashanddie: hmm, I can't ping an IP... I'm checking out http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/beta1/documentation.html but it seems to assume the network "just works"... I've tried a suggestion in "networking problems" |
| 12:34.28 | markc | rebooting vb and try again |
| 12:38.34 | *** join/#maemo matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 12:40.29 | markc | nope, vb is PCnet-Fast, nat, guest ip is eth3 10.0.2.15, host has eth0:0 as 10.0.2.2 with masq to eth0 192.168.1.4, gw 192.168.1.1, /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward = 1 ... anything I've missed? |
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| 12:51.54 | jophish | Morning all |
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| 13:01.10 | rZr | hi |
| 13:01.26 | rZr | any multitouch hack on n8x0 http://www.newlc.com/en/multitouch-feature-any-screen ? |
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| 13:04.21 | lbt | old news.. ask lcuk; he had it working LAST YEAR |
| 13:05.21 | RichiH | are any nokia people in here? |
| 13:05.37 | lbt | usually |
| 13:05.39 | lcuk | no, this is an apple channel |
| 13:05.55 | RichiH | lbt: got any nicks? |
| 13:05.58 | lbt | ran out of apples |
| 13:06.06 | lbt | and had a nectarine |
| 13:06.15 | lbt | RichiH: just ask/talk |
| 13:06.21 | lcuk | liqbase has a powerlemon! |
| 13:06.30 | lbt | this isn't a Nokia support channel though |
| 13:09.02 | thux | is there nokia support channel somewhere? |
| 13:09.31 | lbt | www.nokia.com/support ? |
| 13:09.46 | lbt | highly unlikely that they'd do irc :) |
| 13:10.09 | lbt | imagines the trolling/baiting.... |
| 13:10.20 | lopz | hi |
| 13:10.42 | RichiH | lbt: in this specific case, i would prefer query |
| 13:10.52 | RichiH | but i am not in a hurry so i will just lurk here |
| 13:11.34 | lbt | it took me months (and face-2-face meetings) before I knew who was nokian :) |
| 13:11.59 | lbt | just saying ... if you need help ... anyhow... feel free to lurk |
| 13:12.06 | RichiH | but while i am here, what is the status (if any) of the gtk->qt move? i heard rumours shortly after the aquisition but never followed it up |
| 13:12.25 | lbt | it is in progress |
| 13:12.35 | lbt | but it's more of a move to dual |
| 13:12.43 | lbt | than a move away from gtk |
| 13:12.44 | RichiH | lbt: yah, i understand why. i guess they don't exactly fancy being hunted down by dozens of people for random crap |
| 13:12.49 | lbt | for the forseeable |
| 13:12.58 | lbt | nods |
| 13:13.21 | RichiH | with the memory constraints on a mobile platform i would assume they would want to only load one lib |
| 13:13.24 | lbt | they talked about Qt being 'supported' in Fremantle +1 |
| 13:13.49 | lbt | I use it quite happily on N800 though |
| 13:14.05 | lbt | and it is more modular now (though not tiny) |
| 13:14.31 | *** join/#maemo eichi (n=eichi@p5B202389.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 13:15.04 | RichiH | lbt: but the main UI is still based on gtk+, then? |
| 13:15.06 | lbt | we're working with gnuton (hey, have you posted yet!) on the hildonisation |
| 13:15.13 | lbt | yes it is |
| 13:15.27 | lbt | Qt is currently only used for apps |
| 13:15.44 | lbt | though if you wanted to explore then Mer would be the place to do ut |
| 13:16.28 | lbt | QTablet is an option to replace the WM bt there's a fair amount of stable gtk/glib stuff |
| 13:16.34 | lcuk | RichiH, "main ui" involves a lot of code, you cannot just whip out and replace it overnight, no1 ever expected it to be :P |
| 13:17.15 | RichiH | lcuk: obviously. which i did not expect it to happen over night. but asking about the whole thing is still valid, no? ;) |
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| 13:17.48 | lcuk | tis still very valid, lbt himself is making a nice list of whats needed :) |
| 13:18.10 | lcuk | is also making a nice list too :) |
| 13:19.06 | RichiH | lbt: well, i guess what the main use case is. on a toy/dev thing breaking stuff is fine. on a n900, i would rather use stable stuff |
| 13:19.20 | RichiH | is still wondering how easy it will be to make maemo run on a pandora |
| 13:19.33 | lbt | that's what Mer is for... :) |
| 13:19.35 | lcuk | mer would be a better target |
| 13:19.37 | RichiH | the n900 and the pandora share the same platform, after all |
| 13:19.48 | RichiH | joined already, yah |
| 13:19.56 | RichiH | still reading up on what it actually is, though :) |
| 13:20.46 | lbt | Maemo for other platforms |
| 13:22.37 | RichiH | aye |
| 13:22.37 | RichiH | neat |
| 13:22.50 | thux | is there a update for diablo's flash-plugin? web-pages are started to say you need newer flash |
| 13:22.52 | RichiH | i am really looking forward to pitting it against angstroem |
| 13:23.09 | *** join/#maemo doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
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| 13:24.32 | AFBN810 | Ok I saw a n800 on the other side of room at SELF who is here with me lol |
| 13:25.55 | RichiH | does the USB port on a n810 or n900 give the full 500 mA in host mode? |
| 13:26.24 | lcuk | no |
| 13:26.28 | lcuk | its usbotg |
| 13:27.13 | GAN800 | RichiH, UI-wise it'll murder it. |
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| 13:36.14 | RichiH | http://maemo.org:80/downloads/product/OS2008/usbcontrol/ seems to imply otherwise |
| 13:36.36 | RichiH | also, is this the canonical channel for the actual hardware or should i take this elsewhere |
| 13:37.39 | lbt | no, this is the right place... |
| 13:39.58 | VDVsx | bets that the fremantle main UI, will not be entirely based in hildon and will be totally different from what we see now in the SDK :P |
| 13:45.16 | GAN800 | RichiH, it provides 100mA in USB host. |
| 13:46.02 | GAN800 | VDVsx, what will it be based in? |
| 13:46.35 | AFBN810 | ok I'm shocked there are 3 n800s within 10 feet of me here |
| 13:47.08 | VDVsx | GAN800, clutter + some technology similar to wrt (web widgets) |
| 13:47.25 | AFBN810 | and I swear one of them is in xchat lol |
| 13:47.41 | GAN800 | VDVsx, I'll be pissed if they pull a stunt like that after all the openness talk. |
| 13:48.26 | GAN800 | We've seen how well the whole HTML/js thing works for WebOS |
| 13:48.30 | lcuk | GAN800, who says they arent open - the nokia WRT is fully open and documented - its just not shoved infront of your face |
| 13:48.47 | VDVsx | GAN800, hildon is being developed by contractors, what the nokia engineers are doing ? :) |
| 13:49.02 | lcuk | skiing |
| 13:49.07 | VDVsx | lol |
| 13:49.14 | GAN800 | If they're moving in a totally different direction than what's in the SDK, then, no, that's not open behavior. |
| 13:49.50 | GAN800 | VDVsx, Nokia contracts lots of stuff. The Nokia engineers are working on things that aren't contracted. |
| 13:50.44 | lcuk | i actually agree gan and dont think its gonna be whipped from under us, but there could be a nice game engine in the works somewhere :) that doesnt take away what core underlying x11 stuff there is |
| 13:50.50 | VDVsx | GAN800, I don't mean to say that they will not use hildon, but they will probably try to impress with some cool new stuff |
| 13:51.20 | GAN800 | Clutter |
| 13:51.31 | konttori__ | has seen some very nice game running on the new device. |
| 13:51.47 | konttori__ | the 3d power of the device is stunning |
| 13:52.07 | lcuk | konttori__, ive seen a wicked new game running on the new device as well |
| 13:52.31 | konttori__ | lcuk: do you have one (device) now? |
| 13:52.49 | GAN800 | I can't believe Nokia is so dead-set against the game angle. |
| 13:52.57 | lcuk | no, managed to get lb running in copenhagen |
| 13:53.13 | GAN800 | The hardware is more than capable enough. |
| 13:53.16 | lcuk | gan, x11 is a game engine - it just depends on what kind of games you want to play |
| 13:53.18 | RST38h | GAN: Not their intended usage scenario |
| 13:53.21 | GAN800 | But they seem to want to be incredibly idiotic and shortsighted about it. |
| 13:53.24 | VDVsx | sends his ninjas to steal konttori__ device |
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| 13:53.28 | konttori__ | GAN800: what do you mean? |
| 13:53.43 | RST38h | In fact, their usage scenarios seem to be limited by that 5800 ad |
| 13:53.51 | GAN800 | "It's not for games, so we're going to make it as difficult as possible to use them." |
| 13:54.03 | RST38h | Call, make pictures, listen to music, find way, browse the web. |
| 13:54.07 | konttori__ | ah, well, that does not happen in fremantle. |
| 13:54.10 | lcuk | GAN800, games dont just have to be warcraft and racing - they can be PIM and communications or calculators ;) |
| 13:54.11 | GAN800 | lcuk, higher level. . . . |
| 13:54.21 | konttori__ | you have (afaik) full access to opengl in it |
| 13:54.25 | lcuk | the palm pre has a wicked game engine |
| 13:54.28 | RST38h | lcuk: C++ compilers too... |
| 13:54.35 | lcuk | c++ compilers arent the game engine |
| 13:54.42 | RST38h | really? =) |
| 13:54.47 | RST38h | I can compile games with them! |
| 13:54.54 | lcuk | nahhh they just let your code talk |
| 13:54.58 | GAN800 | konttori__, not quite according to recent discussion. |
| 13:55.09 | RST38h | konttori: apparently not :) |
| 13:55.25 | konttori__ | lcuk: do you mean flixel? |
| 13:55.36 | konttori__ | GAN800: what recent discussion? |
| 13:55.39 | RST38h | konttori: last thing we know, hildon desktop uses clutter which takes ownership of OGL context |
| 13:55.50 | RST38h | konttori: so applications cant use OGL |
| 13:55.53 | konttori__ | not a problem afaik |
| 13:55.55 | lcuk | and ontop of that, we dont have full GL anyway |
| 13:56.03 | RST38h | that is ok |
| 13:56.07 | lcuk | yeah i know |
| 13:56.09 | RST38h | OpenGL ES is sufficient |
| 13:56.10 | GAN800 | That's what's nice about current devices, you can pretty much do whatever you wish. Fremantle sounds like it's moving more towards doing only what the silly marketing people envision. |
| 13:56.17 | konttori__ | you just cannot run with full context in a window managed by the compositor |
| 13:56.30 | RST38h | GAN: Current device also does not share context properly |
| 13:56.41 | konttori__ | also, you can run clutter in a app window. |
| 13:56.54 | RST38h | GAN: In Chinook/Diablo, the hardware accelerated scaler is not properly shared between desktop and apps |
| 13:56.58 | lcuk | yeah but at the cost of compositing the gl |
| 13:57.24 | lcuk | doubling the workload |
| 13:57.28 | RST38h | konttori: the way I understood it, there is no way to give apps exclusive ownership of the context |
| 13:57.38 | lcuk | and inducing waitstates and arguments over the powervr |
| 13:57.39 | GAN800 | RST38h, speaking more generally than that. |
| 13:57.53 | GAN800 | RST38h, it feels like they're actively working against it. |
| 13:58.05 | RST38h | GAN: I am sure Fremandtle device will not be different in terms of hackability |
| 13:58.06 | konttori__ | RST38h: well, let's just wait until you get it into your hands. |
| 13:58.14 | konttori__ | you should smile then. |
| 13:58.30 | lcuk | not at all, it sounds like a perfect use of the clutter system was found and implemented and this is an implementation issue |
| 13:58.30 | RST38h | konttori: I haven't smiled at hardware in a long time |
| 13:58.53 | RST38h | GAN: User experience is a different subject though |
| 13:59.01 | lcuk | on the desktop you have composited windows with gl inside em and no1 blinks an eye |
| 13:59.05 | RST38h | GAN: Have you seen widget examples? |
| 14:00.17 | GAN800 | RST38h, I'm waiting for something resembling a final UI before I make final judgements. |
| 14:00.25 | GAN800 | WHICH NEEDS TO COME SOON. . . . |
| 14:00.58 | RST38h | GAN: Well, think for yourself: do you think there is still time to completely redo widget layouts? |
| 14:02.12 | GAN800 | RST38h, we haven't seen the full picture yet and it's hard to draw useful conclusions from only part of one. |
| 14:02.18 | RST38h | Because what they have right now looks like this: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/figures/touch-selector-entry-multi-column.png |
| 14:02.28 | GAN800 | is really goddamn tired of Nokia's endless bullshit, though. |
| 14:02.36 | RST38h | or this: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/figures/time-button.png |
| 14:02.54 | GAN800 | We're open! But we're not. . . . But we're open--not. |
| 14:03.30 | RST38h | GAN: Well, shouldn't have been this gullible to begin with |
| 14:03.50 | lcuk | RST38h, those are examples out of context |
| 14:03.59 | lcuk | or am i missing the point of examples |
| 14:04.15 | RST38h | lcuk: If I understand it correctly, they are standard dialogs |
| 14:04.22 | RST38h | lcuk: Similarly to what S60 offers |
| 14:04.46 | *** join/#maemo drjnut (n=drjnut@caladan.darksnow.org) |
| 14:05.21 | andre__ | so what is the exact criticism with the widgets? |
| 14:05.33 | andre__ | tries to understand what this is about. or simply another example of "we want the code"? |
| 14:05.43 | RST38h | andre: lots of wasted space and not clear how to use them at the first glance |
| 14:05.56 | RST38h | andre: this is about many different things really |
| 14:05.57 | lcuk | i am hearing it more as "we want the logic behind the code" |
| 14:06.05 | andre__ | ah. okay, i see. |
| 14:06.37 | VDVsx | andre__, in this case, we have the code :) |
| 14:06.43 | RST38h | andre: I mean, ask wazd to come up with a widget and in 3-4 hours he will come up with something way better than these |
| 14:06.48 | lcuk | RST38h, whats wrong with the size and spacing |
| 14:07.02 | RST38h | lcuk: Ok, item by item: |
| 14:07.12 | lbt | andre__: I've seen some great progress in this bug ... hopefully it will continue to a hyperlinked page cf the Qt examples in the report |
| 14:07.18 | *** join/#maemo ustunozgur_ (n=ustun@88.232.100.59) |
| 14:07.24 | RST38h | lcuk: 1) The confirmation button occupies a wide empty column all by its own |
| 14:07.25 | andre__ | lbt, "this bug" means? ID? |
| 14:07.32 | *** join/#maemo pnk (n=pnk@public752.xdsl.centertel.pl) |
| 14:07.54 | lbt | thought this was the widget library bug |
| 14:07.58 | RST38h | lcuk: 2) For some reason dialog does not reach the top of the screen, although there is no useful stuff shown at the top (it is all smeared) |
| 14:08.10 | andre__ | lbt, ah. yeah. okay :) |
| 14:08.19 | lbt | 4625# |
| 14:08.20 | lcuk | thanks god for generic back button everywhere |
| 14:08.32 | andre__ | RST38h, 2 **definitely** makes sense in that UI concept I can assure you |
| 14:08.45 | mavhc | is there no cancel button on screen? |
| 14:08.53 | RST38h | lcuk: 3) The selection columns are wide, not clearly delimited, and it is not clear what you are supposed to do with them (apparently scroll) |
| 14:08.57 | lcuk | wishes he had never asked |
| 14:09.02 | GAN800 | andre__, mostly for me I'm just sick and tired of Nokia. ;) |
| 14:09.05 | RST38h | lcuk: 4) No cancel button of course :) |
| 14:09.05 | lcuk | i had forgotten about this emotive topic lol |
| 14:09.23 | RST38h | isn't being emotional about this, simply stating the obvious |
| 14:09.32 | pnk | hi there, could somebody help me with scratchbox autotools? i have problem with "make install" |
| 14:09.56 | lcuk | i know, preaching to the choir - i have a back button everywhere and try not to waste space |
| 14:10.00 | andre__ | 1 and 3 are valid points to me. 2 and 4 are part of the concept and from my own testing that concept works |
| 14:10.10 | VDVsx | RST38h, the cancel button area is the "wasted space" at the top |
| 14:10.24 | RST38h | VDVsx: Why isn't it labelled "Cancel"? |
| 14:10.30 | lcuk | i wish that was tinted red with a watermarked back button on it |
| 14:10.32 | mavhc | a photo doesn't work then, need a video |
| 14:10.46 | RST38h | VDVsx: You do not really expect Joe The User figure that out? :) |
| 14:10.51 | VDVsx | RST38h, new UI, evolution ? |
| 14:10.57 | mavhc | not from 1 photo |
| 14:11.09 | lcuk | actually, would that help |
| 14:11.10 | RST38h | VDVsx: That is not something Joe will appreciate |
| 14:11.12 | lcuk | "i wish that was tinted red with a watermarked back button on it" |
| 14:11.12 | VDVsx | RST38h, Yes, I expect |
| 14:11.24 | lcuk | ponders |
| 14:11.35 | andre__ | I think that Joe will understand it because it's quite consistent with the rest... |
| 14:11.55 | RST38h | andre: Rest of what? Rest of his Windows running gear? His S60 or WinMo smartphone? |
| 14:11.58 | VDVsx | RST38h, simple to learn and is a one-time learning thing |
| 14:12.05 | andre__ | RST38h, rest of Fremantle UI |
| 14:12.05 | RST38h | Hmm |
| 14:12.09 | pnk | guys please, I need help ;) |
| 14:12.15 | mavhc | the real problem is only half the information is released, 0 or 90% would be better |
| 14:12.16 | RST38h | andre: Joe may just hate that wholesale |
| 14:12.29 | andre__ | RST38h, then Joe is not forced to buy it |
| 14:12.30 | VDVsx | pnk, just ask :) |
| 14:12.39 | pnk | ;) |
| 14:12.45 | RST38h | andre: THAT is going to be the problem for the seller :) |
| 14:13.13 | andre__ | to me the UI more or less works. it has some flaws, but i was surprised how quickly i got along with it |
| 14:13.14 | mavhc | what mobile device has a UI like the rest of the user's computers? |
| 14:13.24 | andre__ | the design decisions... well. that's another discussion |
| 14:13.28 | RST38h | andre: Anyways, let us say Joe buys into this weird concept (wasting 20% of the screen for the huge unlabelled Cancel button) |
| 14:13.43 | andre__ | RST38h, why "waste"? |
| 14:13.56 | andre__ | what would you want to put there? two useless options just for the sake of not having free space? |
| 14:14.03 | andre__ | sounds KDEish :-P |
| 14:14.11 | RichiH | how open will the n900 be? |
| 14:14.14 | RST38h | andre: I would like to put more selection lines there |
| 14:14.24 | RST38h | andre: more filenames, more people names, more months/days |
| 14:14.32 | RichiH | the GSM part will obviously be closed |
| 14:14.35 | andre__ | RST38h, ah. i see... |
| 14:14.36 | RichiH | but the rest? |
| 14:14.41 | andre__ | RST38h, yeah, now i got you. right... :-/ |
| 14:14.42 | RST38h | RichiH: It will not |
| 14:15.09 | RST38h | andre: check out the file selector and see how few filenames it shows at a time |
| 14:15.10 | pnk | i downloaded maemo sdk and wanted to compile some examples, everything is ok (i used scratchbox), but the "make install" command doens't work.. it should install program in some bin folder, souldn't it? |
| 14:15.13 | andre__ | pnk, you've also got a question, or just "need help"? :-D |
| 14:15.32 | RST38h | andre: almost as if Nokia were designing it for a VERTICAL screen :) |
| 14:15.33 | andre__ | RST38h, i definitely agree with that example |
| 14:15.47 | andre__ | ah. |
| 14:15.56 | RST38h | Maybe that is what Nokia is doing btw |
| 14:15.59 | VDVsx | pnk, try to do a 'make' first |
| 14:16.13 | RST38h | With rumored RX-71 being a normal vertically standing phone? |
| 14:16.18 | pnk | I did it |
| 14:16.24 | pnk | make is working |
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| 14:16.46 | VDVsx | pnk, and what kind of error do you got in the make install ? |
| 14:17.15 | pnk | make install say : Nothing to be done for 'install-data-am' |
| 14:17.54 | VDVsx | pnk, what are you trying to compile ? |
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| 14:18.37 | pnk | simple hello world example and the program is working (./hello) |
| 14:18.45 | pnk | but installing in bin forlder, not |
| 14:18.48 | andre__ | pnk, can you post the last 50 lines or so to pastebin.com and paste the link here? |
| 14:18.58 | GAN800 | RichiH, ofono.org |
| 14:19.00 | pnk | no problem ;) |
| 14:19.32 | RST38h | From the platform's point of view, GSM baseband chip is basically a modem supporting extended AT command set |
| 14:20.12 | VDVsx | pnk, probably the makefile of the simple hello world example don't have a install command :P |
| 14:20.15 | RST38h | Whatever is behind this command set will not be available to programmers, but the state machine for making calls, etc. will be implemented in the open sourced oFono |
| 14:20.29 | RichiH | RST38h: so i will not be able to change the image? |
| 14:20.29 | RST38h | (in fact you can see it being implemented if you look at oFono sources) |
| 14:20.37 | RST38h | Image of what? |
| 14:20.44 | RST38h | Baseband chip firmware? Probably not. |
| 14:20.48 | RichiH | oh, wait |
| 14:20.58 | RichiH | RST38h: do you mean the n900 will have open gsm? |
| 14:21.17 | RST38h | It will have an open source state machine for making calls |
| 14:21.40 | RST38h | Sending receiving SMSes too, because these services are also available as AT commands |
| 14:21.48 | RichiH | awesome |
| 14:22.10 | lcuk | calls :O |
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| 14:23.42 | pnk | andree__, pastebin.com/d2ffc30c7 |
| 14:24.26 | pnk | VDVsx, i know how to add commands to Makefile, but I don't know how to do it when I'm using Autotools |
| 14:25.08 | pnk | VDVsx, because Makefile is generated by Makefile.am |
| 14:25.57 | VDVsx | pnk, everything seems ok with the make install command |
| 14:27.12 | GAN800 | RichiH, about 20/80 closed/open is what they're shooting for. With the majority of the closed stuff being user-experience differentiation. |
| 14:27.37 | mavhc | which means what? |
| 14:27.52 | RichiH | GAN800: will i be able to apt-get stuff as usual? |
| 14:27.53 | pnk | VDVsx, so why I can't see installed program? |
| 14:28.03 | GAN800 | RichiH, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc should be open. |
| 14:28.21 | GAN800 | RichiH, of course. |
| 14:28.48 | RichiH | good, good |
| 14:28.50 | VDVsx | pnk, isn't here: /usr/local/bin/lista ? |
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| 14:28.59 | GAN800 | mavhc, statusbar applets, wizards, some applications like Notes, Media Player, etc. |
| 14:29.39 | mavhc | I like media player, mostly |
| 14:29.49 | GAN800 | We really need to do all we can to upstage the Ovi Store with Extra |
| 14:29.51 | GAN800 | s |
| 14:30.15 | GAN800 | MAFW means Media Player being closed is a lot less of a problem. |
| 14:30.25 | pnk | VDVsx, can you see it? :: pastebin.com/d6e01273f |
| 14:30.54 | RST38h | GAN: From one point of view it is easy, from another -undoable |
| 14:31.23 | VDVsx | pnk, try "fakeroot make install" |
| 14:31.32 | RST38h | GAN: Extras is already way more useful than Ovi Store, really. None of Nokia's download centers for S60 were ever successful (Download!,NGage,Ovi) |
| 14:31.41 | GAN800 | Ovi Store is pathetic. Half the stuff on there seems to be limited to Singapore. |
| 14:32.05 | pnk | VDVsx, the same :/ |
| 14:32.05 | RST38h | GAN: It is a typical me-too thing, everybody thinks that by making a store they can match iTunes |
| 14:32.18 | pnk | * |
| 14:32.26 | RST38h | GAN: But on the other hand, Extras cannot be compared to a real online app store |
| 14:32.31 | GAN800 | "I need a flight tracking application. Hey, here's one! Er . . . for Singapore only?" |
| 14:32.50 | RST38h | GAN: You have no way to pay for applications. They are not presented in any attractive way. |
| 14:32.56 | GAN800 | RST38h, no, of course not. |
| 14:33.03 | RST38h | And there are no customers too :) |
| 14:33.40 | GAN800 | but if we manage to put together a decent distribution systen bolting on a payment and licensing system shouldn't be too difficult. |
| 14:34.09 | GAN800 | Well, downloads.maemo.org and h-a-m can both be improved by the community. |
| 14:35.00 | RST38h | Yes, but with the current community process I do not see any major overhaul happening, just some minor changes |
| 14:35.19 | RST38h | Like with the maemo.org site |
| 14:35.40 | GAN800 | Have you been paying attention to the QA stuff? |
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| 14:36.03 | parigaudi | hi |
| 14:36.12 | RST38h | Yes, every now and then, when I see something really weird |
| 14:37.06 | parigaudi | when i connect via wlan to a hostap-based wlan without dhcp (and set the ip manually with ifconfig), |
| 14:37.30 | parigaudi | there's a popup after a couple sec telling me that it failed to retrieve an ip |
| 14:37.59 | parigaudi | anis there a way to set the ip manually in the gui |
| 14:38.14 | parigaudi | and avoid that message and dhcp attempt? |
| 14:38.19 | RST38h | GAN: To me, it looks like the good idea would be to build a semblance of an app-store like download.maemo.org on the side, then see if it can be used for the main site |
| 14:38.40 | RST38h | Except that I no longer believe any of such work will be used, of course |
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| 14:41.07 | RST38h | kills a kitten and offers it to VMS. VMS beeps loudly at the sacrifice |
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| 14:43.52 | pnk | VDVsx, you figured something out? btw. how can I install my .deb package form disk, because I've made one? |
| 14:44.20 | lbt | dpkg -i blah.deb |
| 14:44.31 | pnk | lbt, ty :) |
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| 14:47.08 | pnk | VDVsx, i think I got something, I have a file here: try-1.0/debian/try/usr/bin/lista o_O why here? |
| 14:50.01 | pnk | lbt, something should happen? pastebin.com/d53975bcc |
| 14:50.27 | lbt | it's working |
| 14:50.43 | lbt | however it's running what you told it to do |
| 14:50.52 | lbt | ps -ef may give you postinst |
| 14:50.59 | lbt | or some other script |
| 14:51.48 | pnk | so if I want to install .deb on other pc, will it work? |
| 14:53.13 | pnk | or should I use "make dist" ? some difference? ;/ |
| 14:53.33 | lbt | minute |
| 14:53.36 | pnk | ok |
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| 15:00.23 | lcuk | RST38h, is there a bug about the back button thingy |
| 15:01.14 | GAN800 | RST38h, always the defeatist. . . . |
| 15:01.44 | lcuk | not a defeatist, asking a question http://liqbase.net/time-button.png http://liqbase.net/time-button_withclose.png |
| 15:02.34 | lcuk | you just stop so many arguments by just puttin it back for the people who expect it, and then when they discover it also does it when you just click off, its an "oh wow" moment |
| 15:02.38 | lcuk | no training required |
| 15:02.39 | lcuk | :) |
| 15:06.41 | RST38h | lcuk: I don't think so, isn't it too early for Fremantle bugs to be filed? |
| 15:06.49 | lcuk | i dunno |
| 15:06.56 | RST38h | GAN: And rarely missing one, mind you =) |
| 15:07.13 | lcuk | i tried looking but got lost in the bugzilla advanced search |
| 15:07.23 | RST38h | lcuk: A moment |
| 15:09.12 | RST38h | lcuk: There does not appear to be a bug for this |
| 15:09.32 | RST38h | Found some reference by Quim to Yes/No buttons in Fremantle dialogs though |
| 15:10.55 | lcuk | is it an enchancement request tho? |
| 15:11.27 | lcuk | has other battles right now tho |
| 15:11.39 | RST38h | there was a bug about nonsensical OK/Cancel buttons in Diablo |
| 15:11.51 | RST38h | Quim said that fremantle wont' have ok/cancel |
| 15:11.58 | Stskeeps | and when trying it, it makes a lot of sense.. |
| 15:12.00 | RST38h | bug was labelled as enhancement too |
| 15:12.02 | Stskeeps | but it's a religious manner |
| 15:12.07 | Stskeeps | matter |
| 15:12.21 | RST38h | Sts: Cancel buttons? Not really |
| 15:12.47 | Stskeeps | RST38h: when you try it on actual device it makes a lot of sense |
| 15:12.53 | Stskeeps | you should have come to cph |
| 15:12.54 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 15:13.03 | Stskeeps | anyway, i have better things to do |
| 15:13.03 | Stskeeps | brb |
| 15:14.23 | RST38h | is going for a stroll |
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| 15:21.18 | VDVsx | pnk, sorry, I had to leave |
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| 15:55.13 | andre__ | RST38h, it is *never* too early for Fremantle bugs to be filed. The later, the less you can change stuff in a project |
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| 15:55.42 | andre__ | RST38h, "OK/Cancel" buttons: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3802 is *not* in enhancement state... which bug ID do you refer to? |
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| 15:59.05 | konttori__ | lol. please, do file the bugs about fremantle. |
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| 16:04.34 | RST38h | andre: I think it was initially labelled enhancement, then Quim changed it to bug |
| 16:04.41 | RST38h | andre: See his last comment to this bug |
| 16:05.20 | RST38h | konttori: Well, I can try filing a few "bugs" on the current UI layout |
| 16:05.26 | RST38h | Just not sure anyone will heed these |
| 16:07.07 | AFBN810 | is happy someone saw his N810 and knew what it was |
| 16:15.48 | andre__ | RST38h, well, i will look at them :) |
| 16:16.05 | andre__ | damn... that's probably not an argument at all to convince you :-P |
| 16:18.25 | RST38h | andre: You probably know that I have had pretty bad experience getting bug reports addressed.... |
| 16:18.34 | andre__ | yes, i do know :-/ |
| 16:18.48 | andre__ | and i can understand any frustration when it comes to bugs.maemo.org, really |
| 16:19.41 | andre__ | past was evil. but there's future out there |
| 16:20.05 | RST38h | quotes an appropriate Murphy's law |
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| 16:34.41 | RST38h | has hit the page self-modification bug. Well known, but real hairy to fix |
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| 17:12.27 | wazd_n800 | hello maemo |
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| 17:16.48 | slonopotamus | maemo's sleeping |
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| 17:22.24 | RST38h | moo wazd |
| 17:22.28 | *** join/#maemo wazd (n=wazd@83.149.9.120) |
| 17:22.43 | RST38h | He multiplies! |
| 17:23.07 | *** join/#maemo amr- (n=amr@0-1d-7d-c6-79-a1.tr.esol.dur.ac.uk) |
| 17:23.36 | wazd | RST38h, I already have an army of me :) |
| 17:24.12 | wazd | wazd_, hey!) |
| 17:24.21 | wazd_ | wooow |
| 17:24.55 | wazd_ | if you hold'n'drag users list in xchat in maemo, you can see crazy effects |
| 17:25.07 | wazd_ | wazd, :P |
| 17:25.57 | wazd_ | especially if you put cursor over chat scrollbar while dragging |
| 17:26.23 | wazd | hippie incoming :) |
| 17:27.10 | RST38h | wazd: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/figures/ |
| 17:28.35 | RST38h | wazd: and the blog post is here: http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalink/2009/06/12/maemomm-for-maemo-5-and-screenshots/ |
| 17:32.37 | wazd | I'm thru crappy gprs in the middle of nowhere now, is it an interface builder for maemo or something?) |
| 17:33.44 | Stskeeps | c++ api for maemo |
| 17:34.48 | wazd | Stskeeps, ah, nothing to see here then, move along :) |
| 17:36.35 | VDVsx | GeneralAntilles, ping |
| 17:37.47 | RST38h | wazd: screenshots of fremantle ui dialogs |
| 17:39.03 | wazd | RST38h, oh, that's a good stuff, thanks! |
| 17:39.32 | RST38h | wazd: you may get different opinion once you see them... |
| 17:40.08 | wazd | RST38h, oh, are they that bad?( |
| 17:41.15 | wazd | my evil clone has returned to the ether world )) |
| 17:41.41 | VDVsx | RST38h, let's put a poll in tmo, about replacing the maemo designers by wazd :P |
| 17:41.53 | VDVsx | just kidding :P |
| 17:42.05 | RST38h | VDVsx: will come out badly for maemo designers... |
| 17:42.39 | VDVsx | RST38h, I know |
| 17:43.31 | VDVsx | but this will lead to a big flame thread, we don't need more now :( |
| 17:44.07 | VDVsx | likes wazd mockups |
| 17:44.19 | wazd | Well, it would be uber great to work with maemo team, but I'm not sure that a guy from russia without any grades in that stuff really mean something for nokia =)) |
| 17:45.03 | wazd | so I'd better keep up helping community with design =) |
| 17:45.25 | wazd | VDVsx, glad to hear it :) |
| 17:45.36 | RST38h | [walk time] |
| 17:45.44 | mavhc | design by screenshots often fails, people who type out their reasoning to go with them do better |
| 17:46.38 | wazd | RST38h, is it that hot in moscow as in my train? |
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| 17:48.24 | wazd | mavhc, I thought that it's better to draw your POV in some of design related things than to try to describe it in words |
| 17:48.25 | VDVsx | wazd, this is a problem in 'all' big company's, there are very talented guys out there, they simple don't hire this guys because the lack of a degree :( |
| 17:49.38 | wazd | VDVsx: well, I can't get a degree in this sphere of design in russia anyway) |
| 17:50.04 | wazd | VDVsx, so it's just mmy bad luck) |
| 17:50.23 | VDVsx | :( |
| 17:50.39 | *** join/#maemo slonopotamus (n=slonopot@ppp91-78-229-220.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 17:51.22 | wazd | VDVsx, and studying abroad is very expensive for me |
| 17:53.35 | wazd | so I need to make lots of money with some other stuff, then go abroad, get a degree there and then came back to Nokia =) |
| 17:54.18 | *** join/#maemo doc|home (n=doc@gentoo/contributor/doc-007) |
| 17:54.42 | *** join/#maemo borism (n=boris@195-50-204-37-dsl.krw.estpak.ee) |
| 17:55.55 | Stskeeps | or since you know your shit already, skip the studies, get a shitload of money? ;) |
| 17:57.11 | wazd | stskeeps: no grade - no shitload of money =) |
| 17:59.17 | *** join/#maemo VDVsx_ (n=valerio@bl5-207-171.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 17:59.30 | Stskeeps | wazd: true |
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| 18:02.18 | VDVsx_ | wazd, or... you can turn yourself in your own boss, and do contracted work for nokia :P |
| 18:03.20 | wazd | VDVsx, that's really hard stuff, considering secrecy grade of developement :) |
| 18:04.14 | wazd | VDVsx, they have leaks even in their own offices, I doubt they will trust me that much |
| 18:05.27 | VDVsx_ | wazd, true for design stuff, is very unlikely a company like nokia do it externally |
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| 18:07.37 | Jaffa | evening, all |
| 18:07.40 | VDVsx_ | wazd, but a lot of IT company's, usually outsource the design stuff to design company's |
| 18:07.58 | VDVsx_ | morning Jaffa :) |
| 18:07.59 | wazd | jaffa: heya |
| 18:08.11 | Stskeeps | evening jaffa |
| 18:08.20 | Jaffa | Stskeeps: hope your exam went OK yesterday |
| 18:08.34 | Stskeeps | Jaffa: passed with one point above passing, so i'm happy |
| 18:08.48 | Jaffa | :) |
| 18:08.52 | wazd | VDVsx, well, to have the uniqe face of your product, it's better to have own one |
| 18:08.56 | Stskeeps | (linear algebra isn't my best side when the exam could fuck up my life .. :) |
| 18:09.41 | lbt | Hi Jaffa |
| 18:10.15 | mavhc | wazd: I mean do both, and have video too |
| 18:10.51 | *** join/#maemo Vulcanis (n=CBabbage@ool-43566062.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 18:11.25 | wazd | mavhc, well, that's what I'm trying to do :) |
| 18:11.41 | *** join/#maemo johnsq (n=therippe@252.60.broadband3.iol.cz) |
| 18:11.56 | johnsq | Hi |
| 18:12.35 | wazd | mavhc, better not video, but flash emulation or sometng |
| 18:13.03 | wazd | mavhc, to make something really interactive |
| 18:16.31 | wazd | damn, 2 hours in a train are really annoying |
| 18:16.50 | *** join/#maemo disco_stu (n=wrt54gl@190.216.32.137) |
| 18:17.23 | wazd | but #maemo conversations always make em short =) |
| 18:21.17 | johnsq | slonopotamus: here howto use qemu user with gentoo http://goron.de/~johns/n810/ , i hope my english is understandable |
| 18:21.55 | slonopotamus | johnsq, don't worry, i'm not english-native either :) |
| 18:24.36 | slonopotamus | [ -e /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/arm ] || echo ":arm:M::\x7fELF\x01\x01\x01\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x02\x00\x28\x00:\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\x00\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xff\xfe\xff\xff\xff:/usr/bin/qemu-wrapper:" > /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc/register |
| 18:24.40 | slonopotamus | maaagic |
| 18:25.02 | *** join/#maemo disco_stu (n=wrt54gl@190.216.32.137) |
| 18:25.50 | johnsq | no magic, just look if the binfmt rule already exists, then the target und the file header of arm bin files. and which program to execute |
| 18:25.55 | slonopotamus | johnsq, your color scheme... is kinda unsusal :) |
| 18:26.11 | slonopotamus | s/unsusal/unusual/ |
| 18:26.56 | johnsq | cool bot, helps non vi or csh users |
| 18:26.58 | GAN800 | VDVsx_, pong? |
| 18:29.37 | johnsq | slonopotamus: qemu-arm uses the wrong cpu, I haven't found a way to configure the correct default cpu type, than the wrapper isn't needed. |
| 18:30.17 | suihkulokki | johnsq: which qemu version do you use? |
| 18:31.15 | johnsq | suihkulokki: latest gentoo Latest version available: 0.10.5 |
| 18:33.51 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: I published that? XD |
| 18:34.08 | Luke-Jr | oh, johnsq did it too |
| 18:34.11 | Luke-Jr | almost the same lol |
| 18:34.12 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, what that? |
| 18:34.19 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: qemu wrapper thing |
| 18:34.25 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, i asked you but you didn't |
| 18:34.37 | Luke-Jr | it was simpler back then I thought |
| 18:34.54 | Luke-Jr | eh |
| 18:35.01 | Luke-Jr | how does johnsq's version work? O.o |
| 18:35.07 | Luke-Jr | oh |
| 18:35.11 | Luke-Jr | it uses a host bin |
| 18:35.33 | Luke-Jr | I wrote my wrapper in C since my chroot is mostly pure |
| 18:35.41 | Luke-Jr | only qemu+wrapper are native |
| 18:35.54 | johnsq | static shell+qemu |
| 18:36.03 | Luke-Jr | ah |
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| 18:36.50 | johnsq | I was to lazy, to write a c wrapper. |
| 18:37.04 | Luke-Jr | http://pastebin.com/m1b27406d <-- mine |
| 18:37.07 | ds3 | johnsq: isn't that echo a bash only echo? |
| 18:38.11 | johnsq | ds3: shouldn't only -e is different |
| 18:38.45 | johnsq | if the quotes are bash only, i don't know |
| 18:39.45 | johnsq | dash didn't support \x?? |
| 18:41.14 | johnsq | but bash also not, i think the \xff are handled in the kernel |
| 18:42.10 | ds3 | Oh |
| 18:42.20 | ds3 | thought it was the echo command that did it |
| 18:42.23 | ds3 | *shrug* |
| 18:42.51 | ds3 | but anyways, thanks - I can think of many other uses for that |
| 18:43.41 | ds3 | be interesting to try to do the reverse... setup it up so the N8x0 can run x86 stuff in a chroot environment |
| 18:45.06 | *** join/#maemo z4chh (n=zach@cpe-75-186-150-159.woh.res.rr.com) |
| 18:45.11 | slonopotamus | oh my |
| 18:46.13 | johnsq | ds3: you must wait some years, than the mobils have enough power. |
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| 18:51.47 | slonopotamus | ds3, but why? arm binaries are much more optimized |
| 18:51.55 | RST38h | back |
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| 18:52.47 | jophish | is there any simple way to forward touch on an n810 to a desktop computer |
| 18:52.55 | jophish | to use as a touchpad for example |
| 18:53.10 | *** join/#maemo disco_stu_N800 (n=wrt54gl@190.216.32.137) |
| 18:53.10 | johnsq | jophish: yes, bluetooth mouse emulation |
| 18:54.07 | jophish | ok, thanks |
| 18:54.25 | johnsq | jophish: quick and dirty x2x with any network connection |
| 18:55.49 | jophish | ok |
| 18:56.07 | VDVsx | jophish, try bluemaemo :) |
| 18:56.25 | jophish | sure |
| 18:56.29 | jophish | thanks very much |
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| 18:58.23 | johnsq | slonopotamus: the cx3110x ebuild says the file size didn't match |
| 18:58.34 | slonopotamus | o_o |
| 18:59.15 | johnsq | slonopotamus: 79068 Jun 18 2008 cx3110x-module-src_2.0.15-1.tar |
| 18:59.24 | slonopotamus | johnsq, hmm... |
| 19:00.35 | slonopotamus | -rw-rw-r-- 1 portage portage 84062 Ðек 16 23:52 /usr/portage/distfiles/cx3110x-module-src_2.0.15-1.tar.gz |
| 19:00.53 | slonopotamus | where downloaded from? |
| 19:02.52 | johnsq | slonopotamus: http://luke.dashjr.org |
| 19:03.00 | slonopotamus | luke-jr |
| 19:03.21 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, ^ |
| 19:03.37 | Luke-Jr | â? |
| 19:04.02 | slonopotamus | johnsq says your cx3110x mirror is broken |
| 19:04.13 | Luke-Jr | let's blame Stskeeps |
| 19:04.14 | johnsq | etched file: cx3110x-module-src_2.0.15-1.tar.gz VERIFY FAILED! |
| 19:04.24 | slonopotamus | uh? |
| 19:04.29 | slonopotamus | i have it locally |
| 19:04.33 | slonopotamus | its bigger |
| 19:04.41 | *** join/#maemo harbaum__ (n=harbaum@i59F4B499.versanet.de) |
| 19:04.41 | slonopotamus | may upload |
| 19:05.03 | johnsq | slonopotamus: your version is wrong |
| 19:05.06 | johnsq | >>> Downloading 'http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1/free/c |
| 19:05.13 | Luke-Jr | cx3110x-module-src_2.0.15-1.tar.gz 18.06.2008 08:58 79068 |
| 19:05.22 | slonopotamus | funny |
| 19:05.22 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: like I said, let's blame Stskeeps |
| 19:05.29 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: yours came from Mer's (now down) repo |
| 19:06.15 | Luke-Jr | fixing ebuild to NOT use that now |
| 19:06.16 | *** join/#maemo SHADOW_V (n=SHADOW_V@c-24-0-8-231.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 19:06.34 | slonopotamus | i wonder what differs |
| 19:06.38 | Luke-Jr | also |
| 19:06.43 | *** join/#maemo t_s_o (n=tso@40.84-49-134.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:06.46 | Luke-Jr | but I have successfully built the Maemo-repo copy |
| 19:06.58 | slonopotamus | you couldn't |
| 19:07.10 | slonopotamus | you should get digest mismatch |
| 19:07.37 | ds3 | johnsq: the OMAP3's might come close |
| 19:07.42 | Luke-Jr | pushed a change |
| 19:07.50 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: oh, interesting |
| 19:07.53 | ds3 | as for why... there was this pesky legacy device called the HP200LX... |
| 19:08.13 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: it built somehow... |
| 19:08.30 | ds3 | while this may not do dos emulation.. it is a step in that direction... almost like a synthesized 386 version of it |
| 19:08.33 | johnsq | yes when then everybody writes small and quick application, it whould be fine |
| 19:08.36 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, but you couldn't. unless you used ebuild digest --force |
| 19:09.16 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: can you copy your cx3110x somewhere? |
| 19:09.22 | Luke-Jr | the src |
| 19:09.24 | Luke-Jr | I want to diff it |
| 19:09.25 | RST38h | Sri Lankan troops did not find any cyanide capsule on the LTTE leader's body after he was killed during the final phase of the 30-year-old civil war, while they recovered cyanide pills from many of the LTTE cadres and leaders killed in the military campaign. |
| 19:09.29 | RST38h | (chicken!) |
| 19:09.56 | slonopotamus | 1 min |
| 19:10.04 | ds3 | RST38h: maybe he took it? ;) |
| 19:11.15 | RST38h | ds3: No, got shot. |
| 19:11.53 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, http://slonopotamus.org/cx3110x-module-src_2.0.15-1.tar.gz |
| 19:13.34 | slonopotamus | johnsq, luke-jr updated digest. layman -S and retry |
| 19:13.40 | johnsq | layman -S and it goes on |
| 19:14.18 | jophish | rats, having trouble installing bluemaemo |
| 19:14.46 | slonopotamus | stskeeps, changing tarballs is the biggest evil |
| 19:14.47 | Luke-Jr | jophish: it will probably fail |
| 19:14.54 | Luke-Jr | Mer actually modified it |
| 19:15.01 | jophish | ah |
| 19:15.15 | jophish | its some libs, under the wrong names |
| 19:15.50 | jophish | for example libeida spears missing, only because it is called libeina-ver-pre-svn-01.so.0 |
| 19:16.05 | jophish | creating a simlink to libeida.so.0 works |
| 19:16.13 | jophish | but there are other libs too |
| 19:16.27 | jophish | like libedva |
| 19:16.41 | johnsq | jophish: forgot ldconfig? |
| 19:17.29 | VDVsx | jophish, are you using the .deb package ? |
| 19:17.34 | jophish | yes |
| 19:17.45 | jophish | just from the app manager |
| 19:17.59 | VDVsx | I installed it yesterday and worked fine |
| 19:18.28 | jophish | hmm, I dont seem to ahve ldconfig |
| 19:18.34 | Luke-Jr | omfg |
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| 19:18.56 | VDVsx | jophish, probably the Python-efl update broke some packages :( |
| 19:19.16 | Luke-Jr | johnsq: slonopotamus: sorry, fixing this will take some time |
| 19:19.29 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps apparently patched up his cx3110x without increasing version on it |
| 19:19.47 | *** join/#maemo stiev3 (n=stiev3@ip24-253-151-116.hr.hr.cox.net) |
| 19:19.48 | Stskeeps | and gentoo-n8x0 is leeching off the bw on my server |
| 19:19.49 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 19:19.52 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, well... which one is better? :) |
| 19:20.02 | jophish | what repository would I find ldconfig in? |
| 19:20.06 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: Stskeeps added WEP/WPA or something like that |
| 19:20.32 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: can you at least tell me what the changes did? XD |
| 19:21.05 | Stskeeps | Luke-Jr: magic |
| 19:21.16 | *** join/#maemo disco_stu (n=wrt54gl@190.216.32.137) |
| 19:21.41 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: WEP or WPA or both? anything else? |
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| 19:22.54 | slonopotamus | Stskeeps, regardless of that, changing tarballs is bad practice :) |
| 19:23.22 | Stskeeps | slonopotamus: yeah, i admitted this already |
| 19:24.34 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: ⦠|
| 19:24.45 | VDVsx | jophish, you have extras-devel repo enabled ? |
| 19:25.10 | jophish | ah, that's it |
| 19:25.11 | jophish | thanks |
| 19:25.29 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: or was cx3110x's WPA support non-standard and you standardized it? |
| 19:25.35 | slonopotamus | johnsq, you'll have to rebuild cx3110x after we figure out thing thing, i guess. |
| 19:25.51 | *** join/#maemo jegp (n=jegp@190.2.193.222) |
| 19:25.57 | slonopotamus | s/ out thing/ out this/ |
| 19:26.11 | johnsq | slonopotamus: i fighting with the kernel, i must first configure and compile it |
| 19:26.19 | Luke-Jr | johnsq: in the meantime, bin pkg = http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n8x0/packages/net-wireless/cx3110x-2.0.15-r5.tbz2 |
| 19:26.20 | slonopotamus | oooh |
| 19:26.36 | Luke-Jr | johnsq: if you're going to use a new kernel, you can't use cx3110x anyway |
| 19:26.36 | slonopotamus | johnsq, whst kernel? diablo? |
| 19:27.28 | *** join/#maemo wazd (n=chatzill@gwh-1-22-val21.ln.rinet.ru) |
| 19:27.30 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: btw, vanilla doesn't have N810 support at least |
| 19:27.39 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: missing some platform files |
| 19:27.59 | johnsq | slonopotamus: diablo are the only source which i have on the sdhc card |
| 19:28.39 | slonopotamus | johnsq, use /usr/src/linux-2.6.21-diablo/arch/arm/configs/nokia_2420_defconfig |
| 19:28.50 | slonopotamus | that's stock maemo config |
| 19:29.12 | slonopotamus | needs to document it better |
| 19:29.22 | slonopotamus | building of cx3110x |
| 19:29.33 | johnsq | slonopotamus: i made make n800_defconfig |
| 19:29.42 | slonopotamus | k |
| 19:30.33 | johnsq | s. |
| 19:30.52 | johnsq | slonopotamus: patch failed, seems only to work if your version? |
| 19:31.06 | slonopotamus | johnsq, cx3110x? |
| 19:31.10 | slonopotamus | argh |
| 19:31.31 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, maybe you just put old file to your mirror? |
| 19:31.46 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: I'm going to fix this. |
| 19:31.54 | slonopotamus | luke-jr, okay |
| 19:31.58 | johnsq | slonopotamus: yes, i skip this part |
| 19:32.47 | slonopotamus | johnsq, well... looks like cx3110x broke a bit :) |
| 19:33.10 | johnsq | merging (1 of 4) |
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| 19:48.51 | Stskeeps | archos 9 tablet, 3 hour battery time |
| 19:48.52 | Stskeeps | lovely |
| 19:49.07 | *** join/#maemo b0unc3 (n=b0unc3@host-84-223-153-30.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 19:50.22 | RST38h | ...a demolition crew in Georgia has managed to accidentally destroy an entirely wrong house based on GPS coordinates... |
| 19:52.51 | Luke-Jr | johnsq: slonopotamus: cx3110x fixed up |
| 19:53.05 | Luke-Jr | USE=we-18 to get WE-18 (Linux WPA) patch included |
| 19:53.14 | Luke-Jr | kdelibs is rebuilding atm, so I can't test |
| 19:53.26 | Luke-Jr | that, plus my testing is only compile now since I use stlc45xx |
| 19:53.37 | Stskeeps | builds a package on his n810 for first time ever.. |
| 19:54.11 | johnsq | Luke-Jr: I currently compile glib will take some time. |
| 19:54.55 | Luke-Jr | ew |
| 19:55.11 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: I found a deblet-cx3110x.patch on tspre trac |
| 19:55.27 | Stskeeps | ah, yeah, that's one |
| 19:55.54 | Luke-Jr | that's the only one ;) |
| 19:56.20 | Luke-Jr | wonders if we support N770 |
| 19:56.41 | Luke-Jr | (Linux code sayz 770 has the N, so there) |
| 19:58.31 | slonopotamus | no N |
| 19:58.42 | Luke-Jr | slonopotamus: Linux code sez N |
| 19:59.50 | slonopotamus | nokia says no N:) |
| 20:00.00 | Luke-Jr | Nokia wrote Linux code that says N |
| 20:00.01 | Luke-Jr | :þ |
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| 20:09.25 | *** join/#maemo zehrique (n=zehrique@187.56.33.3) |
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| 20:12.23 | kkrusty | err there was a thing that was about to be released soon for maemo, the name of which I've forgotten |
| 20:12.54 | kkrusty | something that was supposed to fix all the issues related to the packages in maemo |
| 20:13.04 | Luke-Jr | LOL |
| 20:13.10 | kkrusty | and there was a website for it too. Someone mentioned it here |
| 20:13.12 | Luke-Jr | that was a dream, kkrusty |
| 20:13.31 | kkrusty | I havent used irc in a dream so far Luke-Jr |
| 20:13.37 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: there's always a first |
| 20:14.26 | Stskeeps | kkrusty: wiki.maemo.org/Mer ? |
| 20:14.36 | kkrusty | Stskeeps: you are the man! |
| 20:14.54 | kkrusty | Mer is such a forgettable name |
| 20:15.04 | Stskeeps | MaEmo Reconstructed |
| 20:15.18 | Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: Mer is going to solve ALL the issues related to ALL the packages in Maemo? |
| 20:15.20 | Luke-Jr | :þ |
| 20:15.35 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr The sentence was intentionally vague |
| 20:15.38 | Stskeeps | Luke-Jr: alcohol does that too |
| 20:15.43 | Luke-Jr | lol |
| 20:15.46 | *** part/#maemo jegp (n=jegp@190.2.193.222) |
| 20:15.53 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: well, that was my basis for judging it a dream |
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| 20:17.45 | wazd | http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/figures/date-button.png <- oh my god |
| 20:17.58 | Stskeeps | neat |
| 20:18.21 | VDVsx | wazd, we told you :P |
| 20:18.43 | Stskeeps | wazd: it can only be better than the old one. |
| 20:19.32 | wazd | why not just make large calendar?) |
| 20:19.39 | kkrusty | mer will work on n800? |
| 20:20.01 | wazd | kkrusty: it does now :) |
| 20:20.06 | Stskeeps | kkrusty: yes |
| 20:20.14 | Stskeeps | for varying degrees of working |
| 20:21.50 | kkrusty | cool. Well I need my tablet to work for the coming weeks. I'll probably try Mer next month |
| 20:21.58 | kkrusty | the screenshots look nice though |
| 20:23.01 | Stskeeps | on /Mer/Releases/0.13? |
| 20:23.10 | kkrusty | Stskeeps: yep |
| 20:23.14 | Stskeeps | k |
| 20:23.28 | Stskeeps | swear to god, how many buffer overflows are there in this dsp loader.. |
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| 20:38.26 | jophish | I'm still not able to get bluemaemo to work |
| 20:38.33 | jophish | can't seem to find ldconfig either |
| 20:39.26 | johnsq | jophish: ldconfig as root in terminal? |
| 20:39.34 | jophish | command not found |
| 20:39.38 | jophish | cane apt get it either |
| 20:40.08 | jophish | can't* |
| 20:41.38 | johnsq | jophish: sorry haven't used debian the last years. there is some command to find to which package it belongs. |
| 20:41.39 | Jaffa | Catch up on tmo, or sleep? Tricky |
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| 20:41.59 | Stskeeps | i'm fixing DSP loader buffer overflows undiscovered since 770 |
| 20:42.00 | Stskeeps | much fun |
| 20:42.01 | jophish | I thought it was in glibc |
| 20:42.57 | johnsq | jophish: gentoo has it there sys-libs/glibc-2.10.1 |
| 20:43.09 | johnsq | jophish: /sbin/ldconfig |
| 20:43.14 | jophish | unfourtunatly, I can't install glibc |
| 20:43.20 | jophish | unfortunately* |
| 20:44.49 | johnsq | jophish: busybox? |
| 20:45.05 | jophish | might be |
| 20:45.19 | Jaffa | Nice target for Mer: http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/12/video-archos-9-pctablet-resisitive-touch-screen-impresses/ (450-500eur is remarkably cheap, too) |
| 20:45.24 | jophish | not in there I'm afraid |
| 20:45.31 | Stskeeps | Jaffa: and 3 hour battery time |
| 20:45.40 | johnsq | too short |
| 20:45.54 | Jaffa | Stskeeps: true |
| 20:46.29 | Jaffa | Looks similar to the original Samsung Q1 :-/ |
| 20:48.18 | Stskeeps | Jaffa: if it was arm we could easily spice that up but x86.. |
| 20:50.51 | Jaffa | RST38h: Read the stuff about the Pre's Linux-based OS and the unsigned firmware stuff... Nothing we shouldn't also expect with the RX-51, but I suspect Palm'll get a bit more press for it :-/ |
| 20:50.55 | wazd | http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/figures/touch-selector-entry-multi-column.png |
| 20:51.09 | wazd | I guess this pops up when you type something while search? |
| 20:51.31 | Stskeeps | Jaffa: i think it is because it was 100% unexpected |
| 20:51.51 | jophish | stskeeps, on maemo, how can I get ldconfig? |
| 20:51.57 | Jaffa | Stskeeps: True. But a "yeah, we can do that" never gets the same press :-/ |
| 20:51.59 | jophish | usually in glibc |
| 20:52.06 | jophish | which I can't seem to fing] |
| 20:52.08 | jophish | find* |
| 20:52.21 | Jaffa | was really impressed by the maemomm docs they've done. Best Maemo tutorial I've seen (and I dislike C++) |
| 20:52.33 | johnsq | jophish: check the apt-sources |
| 20:52.52 | jophish | ok |
| 20:54.20 | jophish | this seems to be one of those things where the solution brings in a whole lot more problems |
| 20:54.30 | Jaffa | wazd: http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/html/sec-TouchSelector.html#id2798291 |
| 20:54.55 | Luke-Jr | Jaffa: the biggest problem with C++ is the crappy GNU compiler |
| 20:55.06 | Jaffa | wazd: Or, rather, http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs_unstable/tutorial/html/sec-TouchSelectorEntry.html#id2798885 |
| 20:55.27 | johnsq | Luke-Jr: no c++ is also a problem with microsoft compiler, its slow compiling and running |
| 20:55.50 | Luke-Jr | johnsq: Microsoft's compiler is irrelevant to me |
| 20:56.03 | Luke-Jr | I didn't say I knew of a good implementation, just that GNU's sucks |
| 20:56.23 | Jaffa | The language is overcomplicated, and over-engineered in trying to keep compatible with existing C programs. Which just isn't necessary as long as the calling conventions at an ABI level were compatible & deterministic |
| 20:56.31 | Luke-Jr | there's no excuse for C++ to take significantly longer to compile than C |
| 20:56.33 | Luke-Jr | or run |
| 20:56.36 | Summeli | the quality/prize factor is good with GNU :) |
| 20:56.39 | johnsq | isn't a c++ fan |
| 20:57.21 | Luke-Jr | ponders writing a proof of concept C++ to C compiler |
| 20:57.32 | Jaffa | Luke-Jr: i.e. cfront |
| 20:57.43 | RST38h | C++ is over engineered in trying to be compatible with C? |
| 20:57.52 | RST38h | Really? |
| 20:58.17 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr like C front? |
| 20:58.18 | Jaffa | RST38h: Too separate statements. |
| 20:58.24 | Jaffa | s/Too/Two/ |
| 20:58.24 | Proteous | 2275 S Mcdowell Blvd Ext |
| 20:58.35 | Proteous | IT"S TRUE! |
| 20:58.43 | RST38h | Jaffa: You had it in one statement =) |
| 20:58.44 | Proteous | c is for n00bs |
| 20:58.52 | Proteous | c++ is what all the cool kids use |
| 20:58.52 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: does C front support modern C++? |
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| 20:59.02 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr nope |
| 20:59.08 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: exactly :þ |
| 20:59.11 | Jaffa | RST38h: Oh, yes. I had over-complicated and over-engineered in two separate statements. Sorry. |
| 20:59.16 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr but you wouldnt want it to. |
| 20:59.20 | RST38h | can shit all over C++ if needed, but that certainly was a novel approach to C++ critique =) |
| 20:59.22 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: if I did this, I would have as my goal KDE compiled as C |
| 20:59.45 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr: why do you need to compile KDE as C? |
| 20:59.58 | Jaffa | RST38h: Yes, and it's over-engineered as the original goal of being able to compile C programs with a C++ compiler was a) unnecessary, b) doomed to failure and c) failed. |
| 21:00.01 | johnsq | apt-cache search glibc |
| 21:00.04 | RST38h | Considering that c++ is nothing more than an extension to c that adds member functions to structures (see cfront and friends) |
| 21:00.11 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: to prove GNU's C++ compiler is the real problem, not te language |
| 21:00.15 | Jaffa | RST38h: i.e. the engineering could've been simpler if trying to maintain C source compatibility weasn't necessary. |
| 21:00.25 | RST38h | Jaffa: Not really :) |
| 21:00.47 | Luke-Jr | RST38h: there's also function mangling |
| 21:00.47 | RST38h | Jaffa: C compatibility is the best thing about C++. Pretty much any C++ specific feature added on top of that is a mess |
| 21:00.54 | Luke-Jr | RST38h: and the stdlib |
| 21:00.57 | RST38h | Jaffa: You can pretty much choose any feature |
| 21:01.11 | RST38h | Jaffa: exceptions, templates, RTTI - all fucked up |
| 21:01.16 | RST38h | STL hehe |
| 21:01.18 | Jaffa | RST38h: Why do you need C compatibility? Use a C compiler if you want to compile C |
| 21:01.36 | RST38h | Jaffa: A lot of people use C++ as a tidier version of C that allows for better code management |
| 21:01.40 | Jaffa | RST38h: So, in other words, you think C++ is overengineered and overcomplicated. Which has resulted in it being shit. |
| 21:01.43 | RST38h | Jaffa: C++ is perfect for that |
| 21:01.43 | kkrusty | wonders if Luke-Jr could try realview's toolkit or some other |
| 21:02.09 | RST38h | Jaffa: Only if you start using C++ specific features extensively, you mess things up (usually) |
| 21:02.15 | derf | Luke-Jr: The C++ language is undecidable. There's no reason to expect a C++ compiler to _ever_ be as fast as C. |
| 21:02.39 | johnsq | in the language shootout is the c++ version the fastest |
| 21:03.06 | RST38h | Jaffa: BTW, Java ended up the same way, started "light", ended up as a tumor. |
| 21:03.29 | jaska | it was malignant from the start :) |
| 21:03.33 | derf | Java didn't get nearly as bad as C++. |
| 21:03.47 | trofi | c++ in slightly stricter than C on type conversion. -Wc++-compat helps a lot in some cases |
| 21:03.56 | RST38h | derf: Oh it did really, just look at the runtime size |
| 21:04.07 | Luke-Jr | derf: C++ is mostly just C with additional syntax |
| 21:04.14 | Luke-Jr | derf: there is nothing inherently slower about it |
| 21:04.17 | derf | RST38h: Runtime library is a completely separate issue. |
| 21:04.22 | RST38h | derf: Luke is right |
| 21:04.22 | jaska | and java is.. ickier, memory consumption and lack of stuff like operator overloading, unsigneds |
| 21:04.25 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr templates |
| 21:04.29 | derf | Luke-Jr: That "additional syntax" is part of what makes it undecidable. |
| 21:04.37 | jaska | and the generics implementation is a kludge |
| 21:04.38 | Luke-Jr | kkrusty: templates are just syntax |
| 21:04.40 | RST38h | derf: What people perceive as C++ "slowness" really comes from using specific C++ features |
| 21:04.47 | derf | There's no reason for the compiled _code_ to be slower. |
| 21:04.52 | derf | I'm talking about the compiler. |
| 21:04.55 | RST38h | derf: As long as you avoid these features you are ok |
| 21:04.58 | derf | Luke-Jr made comments about both. |
| 21:05.03 | Luke-Jr | derf: ok, templates excuse the compiler slowness a bit maybe |
| 21:05.04 | RST38h | derf: Compiler will be slower, especially if using templates |
| 21:05.09 | derf | RST38h: In practice, nobody avoids those features. |
| 21:05.20 | RST38h | derf: Not really, lots of people do |
| 21:05.26 | kkrusty | Luke-Jr theres a lot going on with templates in the backend |
| 21:05.28 | RST38h | derf: People in our group mostly do |
| 21:05.38 | derf | RST38h: You are by far the exception, not the rule. |
| 21:05.43 | kkrusty | mangeling, demangeling, removing duplicates etc |
| 21:05.46 | RST38h | derf: Not really |
| 21:06.05 | RST38h | derf: Just realistic, and there are more realists than you think |
| 21:06.41 | RST38h | derf: Of course, if you get folks fresh out of the same UMD, and let them code without additional tutoring, you end up with a mess |
| 21:06.44 | derf | Luke-Jr: There's also the fact that all the "object oriented" crap means you need 50,000 inline functions for good performance, and the fact that these are all in the header files means anytime you change the API even slightly, you have to recompile everything. |
| 21:06.57 | parigaudi | c++ with qt is quite clean |
| 21:06.57 | RST38h | derf: Or a bunch of Indians imported |
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| 21:07.07 | Luke-Jr | derf: it doesn't mean that at all |
| 21:07.08 | derf | RST38h: What do you think most of industry is? |
| 21:07.15 | Luke-Jr | derf: and if you do the same things with C, you need to recompile everything too |
| 21:07.29 | RST38h | derf: I do not really care. The shittier most of industry is, the more contract work for me :) |
| 21:07.32 | Luke-Jr | though I will admit, the "new" operator could be replaced with a method |
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| 21:07.46 | derf | There are a _lot_ more incompetent programmers than competent ones. |
| 21:07.55 | trofi | in any language |
| 21:08.02 | derf | And I agree with you, except for the part where I have to maintain these people's code. |
| 21:08.18 | RST38h | derf: You usually get to rewrite it piece by little piece |
| 21:08.50 | RST38h | derf: If you feel sadistic, may insist on them fixing it, although it is kinda pointless |
| 21:08.51 | derf | trofi: Yes, but C++ _encourages_ poor programming practices. The obvious way to do things is usually horrible. |
| 21:08.59 | trofi | derf: i disagree :] |
| 21:09.03 | RST38h | derf: Fortunately, very few cases of that where I work |
| 21:09.16 | RST38h | derf <--- essentialy correct |
| 21:09.40 | RST38h | How many students had to drop classes after getting lost in overloaded operators...ah... |
| 21:09.46 | RST38h | sheds a crocodile tear |
| 21:10.07 | RST38h | anyways, sleep time |
| 21:10.07 | derf | My TA once threatened to fail a project of mine because he didn't think I had done it. |
| 21:10.14 | trofi | every popular language has proglems with herds of incompetent people. no matter how strict it is |
| 21:10.23 | RST38h | derf: I never threatened, just failed. |
| 21:10.32 | jophish | johnsq, I fixed the problem by manually making symlinks |
| 21:10.41 | derf | We were supposed to impelement a disk cache in some data structure... I overloaded the member reference operators, etc., so none of the actual data structure code changed. |
| 21:10.44 | trofi | they Will do write if bool_var.toString().length() < 5 |
| 21:10.45 | jophish | probably a bad idea though |
| 21:10.51 | crashanddie | trofi, C doesn't have any problems |
| 21:11.00 | trofi | crashanddie: oh really? |
| 21:11.01 | RST38h | derf: as long as it worked, wouldn't be a problem, at least with me as a ta |
| 21:11.06 | crashanddie | trofi, yeah :P |
| 21:11.07 | trofi | so vhy do people use valgrind? |
| 21:11.09 | derf | I told him what an idiot he was, and he came back later insisting I had a memory leak. |
| 21:11.20 | RST38h | derf: never a good idea to call tas idiots |
| 21:11.28 | derf | So I showed it running on several billion records in a few hundred K of RAM, and said, "Nuh uh." |
| 21:11.32 | crashanddie | trofi, because they can't keep track of their memory usage? :P |
| 21:11.37 | derf | RST38h: Well, I didn't use those exact words, of course. |
| 21:11.54 | RST38h | derf: Firstly, they usually aren't. Secondly, they have got a few dozen of you, and it may really get to them at the end of office hours |
| 21:12.09 | derf | I was polite. I'm not stupid. |
| 21:12.27 | RST38h | once told a student that the problem was in his DNA. Student left enlightened. |
| 21:12.34 | trofi | :] |
| 21:12.57 | derf | But this only goes to prove my point... code like that is unreadable and unmaintainable. Just by looking at the code you have no idea what is actually going on. |
| 21:13.16 | derf | In order to figure it out you have to read some other code somewhere else that you may have no idea is there. |
| 21:13.26 | RST38h | derf: That is why overloading stuff is rarely a good idea |
| 21:13.35 | RST38h | derf: And we haven't even started on STL! =) |
| 21:13.55 | derf | I don't think anyone could successfully argue STL is a good idea. |
| 21:13.59 | RST38h | derf: Hell, we haven't even started on that "cute" iostreams library that looks soooo nice in examples |
| 21:14.08 | RST38h | All those << and >>> |
| 21:14.22 | RST38h | Until you have to print formatted output, to a string :) |
| 21:14.26 | trofi | and .imbue(locale) |
| 21:15.08 | trofi | RST38h: doesn't boost have printf alike writer? |
| 21:15.17 | RST38h | derf: The traditional argument for STL is "Somebody already implemented those data structrues so I do not have to" |
| 21:15.27 | derf | Anyway, personally I've found the minor limitations of using C are greatly worth the assurance that no one will use C++ features in my projects. |
| 21:15.34 | RST38h | trofi: One more mention of Boost and I throw up. |
| 21:16.18 | RST38h | trofi: There is standard stdio though, and it works every time for every use case, unlike the artifical C++ stuff |
| 21:16.30 | trofi | yep |
| 21:16.38 | derf | The only sad thing about stdio is that there's no way to write new FILE * backends. |
| 21:16.39 | johnsq | about compilers some thinking about tcc for armv6? |
| 21:16.41 | trofi | but it's unchecked |
| 21:16.46 | derf | But that's a library issue. |
| 21:16.58 | trofi | i have to use GCC' format attrs to ensure formats are san |
| 21:17.01 | RST38h | derf: implement your own STDIO functions and wrap. |
| 21:17.07 | RST38h | No big deal, done in ZLib. |
| 21:17.14 | RST38h | Definitely SLEEP now. |
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| 21:27.28 | mavhc | we should all write in objective C |
| 21:29.39 | nomis | mavhc: thats very subjective. |
| 21:31.08 | mavhc | subjective C: int like, whatever; |
| 21:32.05 | nomis | heh :) |
| 21:34.02 | johnsq | we should speak about languages, the problem is that there are too less developers. |
| 21:35.02 | kkrusty | I would be happy to be a developer for maemo if someone promised to hound me if I didnt get work done |
| 21:35.13 | kkrusty | *maemo based projects |
| 21:37.16 | mavhc | get work done |
| 21:39.23 | kkrusty | can you write angry emails and tell me what to work on? |
| 21:40.50 | kkrusty | well if you say "get work done" I'll just start working harder at my real job :D. |
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| 21:42.56 | mavhc | still need a good podcast downloader/player/deleter |
| 21:43.02 | Stskeeps | gpodder? |
| 21:43.55 | kkrusty | canola? |
| 21:44.53 | kkrusty | I always have to convert videos with tablet-encode so canola and gpodder are useless to me |
| 21:45.14 | mavhc | for video videocenter's ok |
| 21:45.33 | mavhc | I did use canola, but it won't run now, something corrupt, and it's bloated |
| 21:45.39 | mavhc | does gpodder have a player too? |
| 21:46.39 | kkrusty | I saw the first season of prison break on the tablet a while ago without tablet-encode. The fences really slowed down the video |
| 21:46.41 | mavhc | canola, but audio only, much less ram usage, and better keyboard control for skip fordward/back 5/30 seconds |
| 21:47.07 | kkrusty | mavhc: same here. |
| 21:47.13 | mavhc | and don't include the pause/resume bug |
| 21:50.25 | mavhc | atm I use videocenter or browser to dl, media player to play, with the recent added playlist, and media player to delete, video center's set to play with mplayer, so audio has no UI |
| 21:53.08 | kkrusty | I download on my PC with miro, convert with tablet-encode and play with media player or mplayer |
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| 22:20.46 | gentooer | I no longer need my n800 (getting an android phone soon!) and want to sell it on ebay, but I have installed a modified bootloader and a SD install. what's the easiest way to reset everything to factory settings? |
| 22:23.21 | johnsq | gentooer: yes, install the flash file from nokia |
| 22:23.53 | gentooer | johnsq, ok and that will get rid of the bootloader as well? |
| 22:24.16 | johnsq | yes, when set flashing initfs. |
| 22:24.47 | gentooer | ok thanks |
| 22:26.21 | johnsq | I wouldn't sell it, there still many uses for it and you will not get much for it. |
| 22:27.35 | gentooer | i really like it, but I only use it for wifi internet when I travel, music, and sshing into my desktop. all of which can be done with android |
| 22:28.24 | gentooer | i've got 4gb and 8gb SD, two cases, charger, stylus.. i'd be happy with $100 for it |
| 22:29.54 | johnsq | good luck and high price. |
| 22:30.59 | gentooer | really, that's high? first one that came up on ebay was already at $105 |
| 22:32.02 | johnsq | no i mean, i wish you getting enough money. |
| 22:32.30 | gentooer | oh heh, thanks :) |
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| 23:58.41 | Luke-Jr | what does ãã°ã¤ã³å(大æåã使ç¨ãã¦ã¯ããã¾ãã)* mean? |
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| 23:59.41 | Luke-Jr | gentooer: I'd flash Mer and advertise it as a bonus ;) |
