IRC log for #maemo on 20090505

00:01.09crashanddiexnt, that's pretty disturbing
00:01.31xntsorry
00:01.35xntbut watch
00:01.36xnt¿4oɯǝɐɯ ɹoɟ ǝɯǝɥʇ 5oɯǝɐɯ uɐ ǝʞɐɯ ǝqʎɐɯ sʎnƃ
00:01.38crashanddienot in a bad way
00:01.41xntguys maybe make an maemo5 theme for maemo4?
00:01.57xntturn your monitor up side down
00:02.03xnt:)
00:02.04crashanddieI'm good thanks
00:02.08xntlol
00:02.10xntok
00:02.19b-man⎼
00:03.01LiraNunaUTF8 ftw
00:03.15LiraNunaanyone knows a dash build for maemo?
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00:21.02LiraNunadoes the maemo sdk contains anything special? or can I compile my own cross compiler (arm-linux-gnu) myself with no problem?
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00:25.34LiraNuna"E: Currently Scratcbox can only run in 32 bit i386 architecture." *sigh*
00:26.21Macerugh
00:26.30Macerthis debian lenny encrypted hard drive erasing takes FOREVER
00:27.45Macerthis debian lenny encrypted hard drive erasing takes FOREVER
00:27.50LiraNunathis debian lenny encrypted hard drive erasing takes FOREVER
00:28.21Maceroops
00:28.29Macersorry about that
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00:33.28LiraNuna;P
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03:09.29mib_bsvo3nIs this for development talk?
03:09.54Valoiscan somebody help me with easyroot?
03:10.43Valoisi am using maemo on n800
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03:50.41Macergr
03:50.42Macerwtf
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04:15.29zakkm<PROTECTED>
04:15.33fireunwoops
04:15.36zakkmopps
04:15.39zakkmsorry :(
04:21.34CutMeOwnThroathehe
04:22.46CutMeOwnThroat<PROTECTED>
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04:28.49zakkmwhen i type i tend to press space alot, so i accndeitly did it before /join
04:43.19zakkmwhere are maemo menu items located?
04:45.13CutMeOwnThroathah, wish I knew where stuff is
04:45.26CutMeOwnThroatgotta get rid of busybox and install the real stuff
04:45.39zakkmthe real stuff?
04:45.43CutMeOwnThroatcan't even use find -type f -exec
04:45.54CutMeOwnThroatbash2, coreutils
04:46.12zakkmthose are in extras repository last i checked
04:46.21CutMeOwnThroatyeah, so?
04:46.42CutMeOwnThroatI just mean... gotta get rid of busybox
04:47.00zakkmwhat would you gain from that?
04:48.42Stskeepssanity
04:48.45CutMeOwnThroat(not saying it's specially challanging)
04:48.50CutMeOwnThroatindeed!
04:48.58CutMeOwnThroatand I think I said that already
04:49.03CutMeOwnThroat<CutMeOwnThroat> can't even use find -type f -exec
04:49.52CutMeOwnThroatthere's no locate either
04:50.02zakkmtheres a nice "switch to lxde" in my menu that i wnat to install like gnome, and switch that switch to lxde to switch tognome
04:50.14CutMeOwnThroatbut having a stripped-down find and not knowing where stuff is ... torture
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04:52.38zakkmyou guys see the new virtualbox supports opengl 3d in linux guests?
04:53.17RST38h"This NASA imagerecently taken by Mars Rover Spiritshows the 5.9-inch skull of a Martian, with binocular eyes 2 inches apart, 1400 cc cranial capacity, and "most likely a carnivore."
04:53.20RST38hHehe
04:53.59Stskeepsurl?;p
04:55.40RST38hhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandtechnology/science/sciencenews/5255394/Alien-skull-spotted-on-Mars.html
04:56.17CutMeOwnThroatzakkm, which would e.g. answer your question (in time, but it would) with something like find / -type f -exec grep -il 'switch to lxde" +
04:56.30CutMeOwnThroat(supposing it's a newish gnu find)
04:57.46CutMeOwnThroatRST38h, http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strange_things.html
04:58.52RST38hdoes not need to know why in this case :)
04:58.57CutMeOwnThroatI love the part where he plays the satanic message without lyrics first and you understand "warble warble satan warble warble"
04:59.15RST38hYessss
04:59.19CutMeOwnThroatRST38h, it's a cool talk... watch it if you got time :)
04:59.36zakkmstskeeps: hows the smartq?
05:00.10Stskeepszakkm: so far so good - need tool to create firmware img though
05:00.22zakkmfast?
05:00.31zakkmis it faster than the nokia?
05:00.32Stskeepssystem is open, already rootable
05:00.44Stskeeps533mhz vs 400mhz
05:00.52zakkmi saw 667
05:00.57zakkmon some info about it
05:01.17Stskeepsyeah, not sure where it came from
05:01.22zakkmbut is it a better omap chip and stuff?
05:01.30Stskeepsits samsung
05:01.32CutMeOwnThroatRST38h, the talk also actually mentions the face that viking 1 saw 1976
05:01.49Stskeepsarmv6 vfp and it claims armv7
05:01.49zakkmyeah does it perform better though?
05:02.12zakkmim thinking of selling my nokia n800 and buying the smartq, could still follow mer the same that way hah :P
05:02.19Stskeepsheck knows. when i get mer on i'll tell you
05:02.21zakkmand the smartq form factor iss better in my opinion
05:02.39Stskeepsdpad not there is friggen annoying
05:02.52Stskeepscrap speaker
05:03.23zakkmi dont use dpad unless playin vgba, yeah speakers important i guess
05:03.38zakkmthe form factor is so cool in that though
05:04.11Stskeepsits also much lighter than my tablet
05:04.19RST38hCutMe: Oh, the 1976 face is an old story :)
05:04.36CutMeOwnThroatobviously, being from 1976
05:04.40RST38hit actually looks like a face, under some angles, so there are legions of loonies going for it
05:05.08CutMeOwnThroatactually not... looks like a face at low-res, as the guy demonstrates in the talk
05:05.13zakkmstskeeps: does that thing have opengl drivers?
05:05.26Stskeepsnot in the fs
05:05.30CutMeOwnThroat(taking a high-res picture and pixelizing it down to low-res)
05:05.46zakkmfs?
05:05.58Stskeepsrootfs
05:06.26zakkmah
05:06.34zakkmheh i want one
05:08.45RST38hWell the loonies prefer the low res picture :)
05:09.37RST38hSts" You should actually thank those nameless chinese guys that they have given you real side buttons
05:10.08RST38hSts: The one I worked on had touch sensors on the side and had to be handled like a freaking grenade )
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05:14.54Stskeepshehe
05:15.26Stskeepsebook reading can be compared to 770
05:15.27RST38hIs the top surface made of glass though?
05:15.35Stskeepsnot sure
05:15.54RST38hI mean can you press on it without being afraid of breaking it like the NIT?
05:16.06Stskeepsfeels like it
05:16.58RST38hthen on-screel dpad should more or less do the job...
05:17.03RST38hon-screen
05:17.55Valoisi need help with airhack
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05:18.11Stskeepsbut the os is neat but not stylus friendly
05:18.42zakkmjust curious, do you think nokia will come out with one past 43-7?
05:18.45Stskeepsyou dont get away with a desktop env on this one
05:19.04Stskeepszakkm: only to enable community stuff if so
05:19.45zakkmi like maemo but as soon as i got my n800, 43-7 sort of came out, and its been ages since then so im wondering if they are just going to go straight from 43-7 to maemo 5
05:20.13zakkmis anyone going to use that qt animation framework , or was that just a proof of concept?
05:20.16Stskeepswell yes, but not for n8x0
05:20.33zakkmso you think 43-7 will be the last update?
05:20.42zakkmis*
05:21.01Stskeepsyeah
05:21.19Stskeepsthats pretty much how it looks
05:22.36zakkmthat sucks
05:23.14zakkmi like the fremantle theme, it looks so cool :D
05:23.33Stskeepsreason why its good to have a os in community hands
05:24.13zakkmmer is much different than maemo though
05:24.48Stskeepsyeah - intentionally
05:24.59Stskeepsimagine
05:25.10zakkmi like that qt animation framework video ;p
05:25.24zakkmthat would be sick to make a ui out of :D
05:25.37zakkmwouldnt it?
05:25.49Stskeepsmarketings face if their million dollar ui is on some chinese mid before their own release..
05:26.18zakkmthat could pose a problem
05:26.25zakkmand fremantle is a different ui than mer
05:26.25luke-jrfor who? ;p
05:26.31zakkmmer mainly
05:26.53johnxluke-jr, people who enjoy Nokia's participation in open source software ;)
05:26.53zakkmlast i checked doesnt nokia support mer?
05:27.24zakkmif mer ends up on some chinese mid before the n900, and marketing gets mad. that could affect mer couldnt it
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05:27.32zakkmlack of support and such by nokia
05:27.42johnxzakkm, well they support Mer to some extent
05:27.54zakkmyeah but im saying, it will do more bad than good
05:27.59zakkmStskeeps: marketings face if their million dollar ui is on some chinese mid before their own release..
05:28.09johnxand if Mer ends up on some chinese MID before the N900 is out I don't think it will be nearly as big a deal as if Maemo 5 ends up on some Chinese MID :)
05:28.13zakkmthat would cause more bad than good
05:28.19RST38hmer is mostly diablo derived, so what is the problem if it ends up on a chinese mid?
05:28.39zakkmit becomes a competition?
05:28.40johnxRST38h, When's the last time you looked at our software versions? ;)
05:28.46StsN800RST38h, exactly. if we took the new hd though.
05:28.56RST38hjohnx: about a week ago
05:28.56zakkmhd?
05:28.59luke-jrif the Chinese can do better than Nokia, then who needs Nokia? ;)
05:29.10RST38hjohnx: but it still looked like diablo pretty much
05:29.11zakkmi want that smartq5 ! :P
05:29.12RST38hsame desktop
05:29.12StsN800we are mostly post-diablo sources
05:29.20luke-jrzakkm: no keyboard afaik
05:29.26zakkmdiablo is older
05:29.29zakkmno keyboard?
05:29.29luke-jr512 MB RAM *is* nice tho
05:29.30johnxRST38h, yeah, well, h-d is just about the last Diablo hold-over
05:29.34zakkmi have a n800, dont have one anyways
05:29.36luke-jrheh
05:29.48StsN800RST38h, not same ver as diablo one - fremanntle api one
05:29.52RST38hjohnx: but it is the only thing the user sees anyway
05:30.26StsN800rest is mostly fremantle src
05:30.27zakkmi still think it needs some animation-like UI .. the tablet
05:30.47zakkmlike liqbase or something but much more .. system-wide or something
05:31.22luke-jrmy N810 is building glibc 2.8 ;)
05:31.22johnxRST38h, yeah. so for purposes of this hypothetical "Chinese PMP" situation, H-D is the only thing that matters. From a programmers point of view it's mostly Fremantle though
05:31.54johnxluke-jr, why so old?
05:31.59luke-jrjohnx: old?
05:32.05johnxnot 2.9?
05:32.07zakkmwhat if it hates it, and stops being so opensourced, like the tablet and fremantle
05:32.35luke-jrjohnx: 2.8 just went stable for Gentoo ARM
05:32.55zakkmwhat exactly is hildon-desktop? is it the window manager?
05:33.01luke-jris Mer working with 2.9? O.o
05:33.16johnxluke-jr, of course
05:33.49johnxzakkm, hildon-desktop is the side and top bar, and when we talk about it we usually are referring to the whole desktop, which includes matchbox window manager
05:34.11zakkmwhy doesnt mer do that anyways
05:34.24zakkmthat way its a clone of like maemo.. and just update like that
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05:34.51johnx"<zakkm> why doesnt mer do that anyways" Sorry, but what do you mean by "do that"?
05:35.03zakkmhave maemo look
05:35.12johnxthe old maemo look?
05:35.18zakkmyeah
05:35.22zakkmthe old mer i suppose
05:35.31johnxwe were for a while, but we like the new look
05:35.51johnxit frees up more space for status bar applets, more space for apps and keeps the same functionality
05:36.17johnxwithout too much work you could probably make a set of packages that emulated the old look
05:36.37zakkmthat would be cool to add in installer :P
05:36.43zakkm"new look" or "old"
05:36.55johnxdefinitely. send us the patch :D
05:37.06zakkmyeahh i been meaing to ask
05:37.11zakkmwhere would i find the script
05:37.38zakkmthe "install mer" one
05:38.01johnxin the merinstaller package :)
05:38.04johnxit's just an sh script
05:38.12zakkmyeah i was hoping it was a .sh
05:38.19johnxor here: https://code.launchpad.net/~mer-committers/m-r/merinstaller
05:39.06zakkmno download button? :(
05:39.11zakkmbzr only?
05:39.35zakkmoh there
05:40.35zakkmjohnx: wheres the .sh ?
05:40.40Valoisn 1 here can help me with aircrack?
05:40.41johnxmerinstaller under libexec
05:41.07johnxValois, I don't think many people here use it
05:41.19johnxValois, have you checked the threads on ITT?
05:42.10zakkmjohnx: if i were to get whole bzr branch.. edit the sh .. copy to nokia, could i compile on nokia and make a deb package?
05:42.43johnxit's pretty hard to make a deb package on the tablet under Maemo, but it's definitely possible under Mer
05:42.53zakkmi have mer x86 ?
05:43.01zakkmon virtualbox
05:43.04johnxyou could use that too, or ubuntu
05:43.21zakkmit will work okay in virtual machine?
05:43.44johnxyeah, I believe so. No need to compile in this case as it's all just sh scripts
05:43.59johnxjust dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot
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05:46.13zakkmwhats the .sh for post-install ?
05:46.17zakkmis there any?
05:46.29zakkmor is that stuck inside the mer rootfs/
05:46.43johnxyou mean the thing you see when you first boot Mer?
05:47.03zakkmi was planning to add extra packages to install
05:47.24zakkmlike mer installs, and then it automatically apt-get's and gets stuff
05:47.24johnxpackages that would be installed in Mer or in Maemo?
05:47.28zakkmmer
05:47.34zakkmi guess i could add chroot to the script?
05:47.40zakkmand then apt-get -y
05:47.41johnxyou probably want to make a new fs image ...
05:48.11zakkmthat would get complicated though, cause as mer updates, so would the new fs image of mine
05:48.11johnxeasier to do it once and not have to worry about it
05:48.30zakkmif its done in merinstaller script, mer can update.. and still have same script for install
05:48.36johnxah, well, then you could add it to "first-boot-wizard"
05:48.50zakkmdoes it change often?
05:49.12zakkmi guess i could do it and evantually propose it into the actual mer fs
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05:49.49johnxzakkm, interesting that you ask that. I plan to change it soon, but that change should make it possible to add new "steps" to the "wizard" just by adding your own script
05:50.10zakkmlike when you boot mer/ mer almost done installing there would be a GUI for like.. "Gnome" "XFCE "hildon" and such and then it apt-get's accordingly, and then again for like specific choices of default web browser/additional ones
05:50.42johnxhmm...really best off doing that with a different image for that big of a change
05:50.50johnxI assume you don't want the hildon libs at all
05:50.55zakkmactually could it be possible to chroot from merinstaller script, and then wget a "firstbootwizard .sh" and replace it ?
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05:51.14zakkmthat would keep the main image lower filesize i would think
05:51.18zakkmand still let them have what they want
05:51.25zakkmSD cards to consider
05:51.26johnxyeah, technically, but if you want to integrate with Mer at some point, that's not the way to do it
05:51.56zakkmwell it would get changed at that point i would think , iwas just thinking for testing
05:52.20zakkmis the rootfs just tar of /  ?
05:52.25johnxyup
05:52.26zakkmthe rootfs file
05:52.54zakkmah then that could work , that would be cool eh?
05:52.55johnxin some cases, some packages might not install too well from a chroot though
05:53.04johnxgive it a test though
05:53.17zakkmyou think that seems nice though? if it does 100% succeed and work?
05:53.24zakkmlike a good idea?
05:53.39johnxhmm? to chroot during the installer?
05:53.43zakkmno
05:53.57zakkmhaving a menu of DE/WM choices.. and apt-gets accordingly + software default/install choices
05:54.35Valois[johnx]: sorry the delay, what is ITT?
05:54.40johnx~itt
05:54.41infobotextra, extra, read all about it, itt is the forums on internettablettalk.com ( http://internettablettalk.com/forums )
05:55.02johnxzakkm, thinking about that. gimme a sec
05:55.18johnxValois, there's a couple threads on aircrack there, but I don't think anyone got it working 100%
05:55.50Valoisits a web forum?
05:55.53zakkmthe maemo driver doesnt support packet injection, so it makes it takee impossible times to "crack"
05:55.53johnxyes
05:56.04zakkmValois, it would go too slow, its not worth it
05:56.21zakkmthe nokia's battery would die, before you get the password
05:56.40Valoisbut couldnt i inject from pc
05:56.43Valoisthe data?
05:56.58zakkmcould do it all on pc then? idkk im just saying what i know of aircrack on maemo/tablet
05:57.22zakkmit works, can install , runs fine
05:57.27zakkmbut no packet injection
05:57.35Valoishmm
05:57.38johnxzakkm, so have this menu be part of merinstaller or part of first-boot-wizard?
05:57.48Valoisthank you
05:58.10zakkmfor the purpose of disk space i would think merinstaller, but it seems better off/easier as part of first-boot-wizard
05:58.27zakkmlike if its in installer, you have maemos wifi on, etc etc that it "cant" fail
05:58.32johnxthe problem with first-boot-wizard is right now there's no network access yet when f-b-w is running
05:58.36zakkmif its in first-boot-wizard, network isnt started yet
05:59.04zakkmalso if they dont want hildon.. first-boot-wizard requires hildon doesnt it?
05:59.28zakkmi dont know much about mer, but first-boot-wizard seemed gtk/ hildon-dependent
05:59.34johnxzakkm, right now the package depends on hildon, but the script doesn't.
05:59.43johnxit would be happy with normal gtk
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06:00.04johnxI think having merinstaller give you a choice of images to download/install would be easiest
06:00.24zakkmbut it would be hard to maintain
06:00.36johnxnot really. we just make a new imager script and run it on every release
06:00.36zakkmi mean one mer update to 0.14 lets say, that might require 14 images?
06:01.17johnxthe script runs 14 times, 14 images come out the other end. if the script fails to generate an image, then it would have failed to install on the tablet as well
06:01.51zakkmyeah i realize the failing part but i mean .. hosting 14 images, if one person wants to change one simple thing thats a whole new image
06:02.03johnxbut, actually, if you can modify merinstaller so it works nicely and doesn't impact the actual mer install or make it harder to maintain, then sure, go for it
06:02.08zakkmwhile my main idea was to apt-get.. which would be alot less download size/time and less bandwidth
06:02.20zakkmthan redownloading a whole image
06:02.24zakkmand that would require replacing /
06:02.53johnxif you don't want hildon, you need to at least make one base image though without it
06:03.16zakkmi do want hildon, i just meant hildon as a choice.. to make it "default"
06:03.21zakkmlike always have hildon
06:03.26zakkmotherwise theres no keyboard or anything?
06:03.44johnxno hildon = no onscreen keyboard
06:03.53johnxyou'd need to supply another one
06:03.54zakkmbut if you choose gnome over hildon.. its not hildon doesnt get installed its just its not default WM/DE.. gnome is
06:04.06johnxah, but hildon is a lot of libraries
06:04.27johnxright now in mer we have a different gtk than ubuntu uses that has special support for hildon
06:04.46zakkmis it the same as maemo, just curious
06:04.52zakkmthe patched gtk
06:04.54johnxsame as fremantle
06:04.56johnxyeah
06:05.06johnxso *right now* you can't exactly have hildon-desktop installed at the same time as gnome-desktop in mer
06:05.22zakkmyou cant?
06:05.27johnxthat's correct
06:05.35zakkmi got fvwm-crystal going in my mer x86 ?
06:05.40zakkmi just changed xinitrc
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06:05.52johnxfvwm-crystal != gnome-desktop :)
06:06.00zakkmis it just gnome?
06:06.11johnxkde + hildon is ok. lxde + hildon is probably ok
06:06.27johnxit's just gnome. gnome wants a different version of gtk than we have
06:06.32zakkmoh
06:06.37zakkmokay so not gnome
06:06.40zakkm:(
06:06.43*** join/#maemo StsN800 (n=user@daimi-pat.daimi.au.dk)
06:06.49johnxwell, you don't want gnome anyways :)
06:06.52zakkmor not during beginning anyways
06:06.57zakkmbaby steps
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06:07.16johnxfirst, get 512MB of RAM soldered in, then worry about installing gnome ;)
06:07.22zakkmyeah that too
06:07.30zakkmi dont know, people said it runs quite fine actually
06:07.38zakkmi dont believe it , but some people here swear by it
06:07.57johnxsome people here play chess by mail as well :)
06:08.01luke-jrGNOME *never* runs fine..
06:08.10johnxlxde was too slow for me
06:08.13zakkmperformance wise
06:08.47luke-jrKDE would be usable were Plasma not a memory hug
06:08.50luke-jrhog*
06:08.57zakkmfluxbox, fvwm, openbox, ratpoison, .. im guessing are the choices? :)
06:09.29johnxzakkm, wmaker :)
06:09.31zakkmeven for software though
06:09.41johnxxfce and lxde are usable to some degree
06:09.44zakkmdidnt penguinbait do wmaker for maemo?
06:09.52johnxa long time ago
06:09.58johnxnot that wmaker changes much these days :/
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06:11.46zakkmeven software installer though, like "simple software installer"
06:12.01zakkmi guess application manager is good though so idk
06:12.23zakkmchoices could be a good thing though
06:12.29johnxyeah, that's what I ran into too in deblet
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06:12.43CutMeOwnThroatratpoison should be rather crappy on something that mostly relies on "mouse"
06:12.54zakkmit was a joke ;p
06:12.56johnxwell, I like having access to desktop apps, but a lot of the good apps were really for maemo
06:13.30CutMeOwnThroatzakkm, well, ratpoison would kind of rule because it always goes to fullscreen
06:13.48zakkmi havent seen ratpoison in years
06:14.08CutMeOwnThroatit doesn't suit me for sure
06:14.18zakkmjohnx: was thinking e17 would be a good choice, neatojones was doing it anyways with e17 debs
06:14.30johnxcould be interesting
06:14.40johnxdoesn't seem to finger friendly, but that could change
06:14.41CutMeOwnThroataewm++? :)
06:14.41zakkmthat would be easily implemented, with his permission but i dont know why he wouldnt approve
06:14.49Stskeepse17 would be nice if it was friggen done..
06:14.49Stskeeps:P
06:14.58zakkmjohnx: e17 has some alternate choices .. not the same as desktop one
06:15.10zakkmlol
06:15.15zakkmStskeeps: forever beta?
06:15.20Stskeepsforever svn
06:15.20zakkmjust downloaded the newest elive disc :D
06:15.21johnxzakkm, I know. I played with it a bit.
06:15.32zakkmvirtualbox doesnt like it :(
06:15.34johnxStskeeps, that's how enlightenment works :)
06:15.42zakkmnew virtualbox supports compiz/ecomorph
06:15.52johnxreally? craziness
06:16.15zakkmopengl 3d acceleration
06:16.46zakkmanyways, stskeeps did you listen to my idea for mer?
06:17.08Stskeepsif you repeat it, i might
06:17.13zakkmhah
06:17.45zakkmin mer installer script // first boot wizard... having a menu saying "Gnome, hildon, xfce, e17" and lets you select one. .and whichever you click.. the choice would be apt-get -y'd
06:17.56zakkmand add to xinitrc
06:17.59Stskeepsyeah, except wifi is not loaded at that point
06:18.15zakkmi know it has flaws lol
06:18.20zakkmbut the idea of giving the user choices
06:18.21Stskeepsmy idea is to have a control panel "Desktop environments", where in AM you can install "xfce-env" and such
06:18.26zakkmyeah
06:18.32Stskeepsand in powerlaunch menu you can have "Switch to LXDE" or "Switch to Hildon"
06:18.33zakkmi was going to say possibly a app in the menu
06:18.55zakkm:(
06:22.56CutMeOwnThroatheh, compiz
06:23.06zakkm?
06:23.23CutMeOwnThroatops...
06:23.34CutMeOwnThroatyou already had that
06:24.21CutMeOwnThroatbut why not... think the processor is too slow for compiz?
06:25.01johnxyes. and not enough RAM, and no hardware GL, also, not enough screen space to make it worthwhile
06:25.02timeless_mbp_your goal is to have no battery after 10 minutes or 5?
06:25.11johnxbut other than that, yeah sounds good
06:25.17CutMeOwnThroatyeah :)
06:25.51CutMeOwnThroattiny little problems :-P
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06:26.53zakkm10! :D
06:28.59CutMeOwnThroatbattery life of 10 minutes should be worthwhile the eye-candy!
06:29.22johnxputting that kind of draw on the battery might be a fire hazard
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06:29.35CutMeOwnThroathehe
06:29.52timeless_mbpfwiw, the device in standard config is supposed to kill itself if it thinks it's overheating
06:30.06timeless_mbphowever if you go about voiding the warrantee, i will not care if it burns you
06:30.19johnxheh, unless we're running a modified bme?
06:30.31CutMeOwnThroatkill itself as in "switch off" or as in "explode"?
06:30.36timeless_mbpe.g. if you do something like that
06:30.42timeless_mbpCutMeOwnThroat: yes
06:30.42luke-jrLOL
06:30.48CutMeOwnThroatI see
06:30.58timeless_mbpCutMeOwnThroat: note that asking a boolean logic question is stupid
06:31.05timeless_mbpthe answer on average will be 'yes'
06:31.20luke-jrcan it overhead?
06:31.23luke-jroverheat*
06:31.36luke-jrmy N810 can get pretty hot, but it's never killed itself
06:31.41CutMeOwnThroatwell... you answer it with something like  as in "explode"!!!!!!11123
06:31.42timeless_mbpluke-jr: i don't think it can fly or project in default configurations
06:31.50timeless_mbpbut there is a video out adapter
06:31.54luke-jrO.o
06:32.12CutMeOwnThroatthere is?
06:32.22luke-jris someone equipping their N810 with wings?
06:32.28timeless_mbpi think i've actually seen protos where the software was a bit overcautious and decided it had overheated and killed itself
06:32.38timeless_mbp(it wasn't hot, the calibration or software was just confused)
06:33.02timeless_mbphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_projector
06:33.10luke-jrmine is very hot right now
06:33.23luke-jrif it were any hotter, it'd burn me
06:33.27timeless_mbphttp://video.google.com/videosearch?q=fly+overhead
06:33.49CutMeOwnThroatthat's not what I'd call "video out"
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06:35.01CutMeOwnThroatuh, I don't think mine ever got hot yet
06:35.20CutMeOwnThroatbut then I've never tried to compile gentoo on it
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06:37.06luke-jrLOL
06:37.20CutMeOwnThroathow's it going, btw
06:37.32CutMeOwnThroatlast I remember was
06:37.45CutMeOwnThroat<luke-jr>       CutMeOwnThroat: like I said, I'm 82% doen w/ kdelibs
06:38.02luke-jrCutMeOwnThroat: eh, it's upgrading glibc now
06:38.13CutMeOwnThroatendless fun, indeed
06:38.50CutMeOwnThroatwhat advantage would gentoo have?
06:39.41CutMeOwnThroatcan you take advantage of processor-specific optimizations?
06:39.45luke-jrCutMeOwnThroat: flexibility
06:39.46luke-jrthat too
06:39.49luke-jrnot sure how much it helps
06:40.02CutMeOwnThroatbut maemo would definitely have that, too
06:40.14luke-jrmaybe
06:40.50CutMeOwnThroatdebian/ubuntu not, though
06:41.24luke-jrI just got my old Zaurus booted
06:41.51CutMeOwnThroathow does it perform compared to a desktop x86 processor, btw?
06:41.55luke-jreh?
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06:42.18johnxCutMeOwnThroat, think 350MHz K6 or so
06:42.23johnxnot a K6-2
06:43.09luke-jrjohnx: eh?
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06:43.16luke-jrARM should be faster than x86, not slower
06:43.39johnxluke-jr, really? how's the FPU?
06:44.02Guest3310_271how get all permission root in emelfm2?
06:44.09CutMeOwnThroatit's risc... shouldnt that use more commands/task, i.e. be slower?
06:44.24CutMeOwnThroathmm
06:44.40CutMeOwnThroatalthough suns ...
06:45.22luke-jrjohnx: ?
06:45.36luke-jrCutMeOwnThroat: more instructions run per cycle ;)
06:45.57CutMeOwnThroatok
06:46.03johnxluke-jr, how's the vfp vs an x86 fpu?
06:46.08luke-jrno idea
06:46.30johnxhint: it's not very fast
06:46.50CutMeOwnThroatanyway, sun sparcs used to be faster if on the same rate
06:49.02CutMeOwnThroathm, I see
06:49.17luke-jrhum
06:49.17timeless_mbpandre__: ping
06:49.22luke-jrZaurus only has 64 MB RAM :x
06:49.25timeless_mbpandre__: can you confirm https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=563546
06:49.34luke-jrI better not try to run KDE 4 on it
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06:50.34CutMeOwnThroatprobably no big wonder than that it had problems playing fast movement of a  688x384 film :)
06:51.49CutMeOwnThroathuh
06:52.01luke-jr<.<
06:52.04CutMeOwnThroatunable to connect via usb memory card in use... remove memory card
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06:53.14Guest3310_271how get all permission root in emelfm2?
06:54.29ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: what about 688x384 film? btw, FPU is not needed for decoding video
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06:55.30CutMeOwnThroatssvb, not much... mplayer showed stills when there was a lot of motion
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06:57.08ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: mplayer is well optimized for x86, this is not the case for ARMv6, additionally memory throughput does matter a lot and memory is not so fast in N800
06:57.36CutMeOwnThroatthe default player didn't play it, though
06:58.03aquatixi think 688x384 is a tad much for a n8x0
06:58.36ssvbstill mplayer would gain a noticeable performance improvement if optimized more
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06:58.54CutMeOwnThroatit's optimized to hell...
06:58.58CutMeOwnThroaton x86 :)
06:58.59ssvbit does not use HW up to its limit
06:59.10aquatixssvb: well, have fun with doing so :)
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06:59.16aquatixwe'll be grateful
06:59.59*** join/#maemo ralann (n=ralann@unaffiliated/ralann)
07:00.10ssvbaquatix: had fun, not anymore :)
07:00.12CutMeOwnThroathm
07:00.49CutMeOwnThroatmplayer seems to use floating point units if available for decoding, though
07:01.08ssvband contrary to popular belief, LCD controller is not at fault for video playback slowness
07:01.47aquatixssvb: you gave up or something?
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07:02.08GAN800ssvb, think I could talk you into writing up a general overview of why playback is slow and where people might be able to help?
07:02.09ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: floating point is used for audio decoding, not for video
07:02.20CutMeOwnThroatyeah
07:02.45CutMeOwnThroatI know... there seem to be lots of discussions on audio decoding performance
07:02.57CutMeOwnThroatstill looking for video ones
07:02.58GAN800It's sort of a voodoo magic thing to most people and I think it would help the issue a lot if people knew what was actually going on.
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07:04.05CutMeOwnThroathm, might try different output modules of mplayer
07:04.41ssvbGAN800: mplayer/ffmpeg has a number of functions that have optimized variants for different processors, ARMv6 support is not so good
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07:04.54usicowAt some stage I had to kill the media player, and since then it doesnt see any media thats on my removable SD card. When I open the media player it says 'refreshing library', but nothing ever happens.. and the CPU looks like its not doing anything at all. Does anyone know how I can fix this?
07:05.21ssvbGAN800: iDCT can be improved a lot, also motion compensation can benefit from ARMv6
07:05.33timeless_mbpusicow: you probably whacked meta-crawler
07:08.12ssvbGAN800: LCD bandwidth is good enough for any video with a resolution up to 800x480, CPU chokes much earlier
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07:09.04CutMeOwnThroatguess mplayer -vo sdl won't do much good :)
07:09.11ssvbGAN800: LCD bandwidth was a serious problem for old versions of firmware, but not anymore
07:10.08ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: yes, because SDL will try to do YUV->RGB conversion on ARM core, also its scaler is not optimized well
07:10.12johnxif it's not too complicated, could you say what what changed?
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07:12.49ssvbjohnx: bugs fixed :) HW is capable of providing 27.5 fps of tear-free 800x480 rgb screen updates, for yuv it's even better because yuv uses 12 bits per pixel and not 16, so it can do more than 30 fps
07:13.51ssvbjohnx: and LCD bandwidth depends on CPU speed too, it is fastest when CPU is running at 400MHz (the numbers above are for running at 400MHz)
07:14.47ssvbjohnx: with very old revisions of firmware, CPU was running at 330MHz and it was a problem for graphics too
07:15.09johnxalso, the default media player switched to 330 to put the DSP at top speed for mp3 decoding, yes?
07:15.35ssvbyes, it's a problem of the default media player
07:15.38usicowtimeless_mbp: I have run meta-crawler from a terminal window and it just ran and ended in liek 1 second without any output.. is that what it should do?
07:16.27zakkm:( arora crashes alot
07:16.31johnxusicow, have you tried restarting metalayer crawler from /etc/init.d or just rebooting?
07:16.38CutMeOwnThroatthere's -vo omapfb "nokia 770 video driver"
07:16.51timeless_mbpusicow: *shrug*, i don't deal w/ meta-crawler
07:16.55timeless_mbpime it's just pain :)
07:17.51RaymondL_Hi, one question for virtual keyboard.
07:18.33timeless_mbpthe virtual keyboard is not programmed to answer questions
07:18.35ssvbjohnx: still it is not very good that DVFS is not taking graphics activity into account, for example a test application which only pushes updates to screen and does not load cpu much will have pretty bad tearing (cpu will go down to 165MHz, graphics bus is tied to cpu clock speed with some multiplier and as a result screen updates will be extremely slow)
07:18.48timeless_mbpnor would something named "keyboard" that was "virtual" be programmed to answer questions
07:18.59RaymondL_I notice that when the Virtual keyboard is launched, the application window will be automatically resized, so that vkb and app window do not overlap each other
07:19.07RaymondL_timeless_mbp: :)
07:19.30crashanddietimeless_mbp, was that funded by Nokia?
07:19.34usicowjohnx: I have tried that.. but just to be sure I just stopped and started /etc/init.d/meta-crawler0 but still the same problem. Do you think its logging some error somewhere?
07:19.41ssvbjohnx: forcing cpu to the highest clock frequency helps, that's one of the things that liqbase is doing afaik
07:19.49timeless_mbpcrashanddie: Artificial Intelligence to answer Interview questions?
07:20.01timeless_mbpi doubt it, we don't have enough intelligence for normal people to answer such questions
07:20.11RaymondL_but I search through HIM's code , do not find anything related to this feature. Anyone can throw a light on me?
07:20.18johnxusicow, probably not. I would look in the metalayer startup script and see if you can figure out a way to run it from the terminal and have it display errors. Sorry, but I don't have much experience with metalayer-crawler...
07:20.23timeless_mbpRaymondL_: would a lit match do?
07:20.28crashanddietimeless, "mbp", did Nokia fund that?
07:20.34timeless_mbpcrashanddie: yes :)
07:20.36usicowok
07:20.36crashanddie:)
07:20.38johnxRaymondL_, it's a matchbox window manager feature
07:20.41ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: yes, this driver has the lowest overhead, uses hardware YUV->RGB conversion and scaling
07:20.44timeless_mbpor would you prefer a molotov cocktail?
07:21.07CutMeOwnThroatdoesn't seem to do a lot better than xv on my sample, though
07:21.08RaymondL_johnx: oh, really :) so what is this feature call ?
07:21.11crashanddietimeless, I asked my company to buy me a Mac, the CFO told me "Bad joke seriously dude"
07:21.14ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: XV is also quite good if colorkey is explicitly disabled
07:21.19crashanddie(I didn't know he was in the room)
07:21.29johnxRaymondL_, it's called, pay special attention to a certain window and don't let it overlap the other one :)
07:21.33timeless_mbpcrashanddie: we have a 3 layer approval process for macs these days
07:21.38timeless_mbpi have a powerful manager :)
07:21.43crashanddietimeless, at least you have an approval process
07:21.44timeless_mbpit came w/in days
07:21.44crashanddiebastard
07:21.59timeless_mbpwhereas, it took me a couple of months to get a certain other item
07:22.15crashanddieI'm still trying to justify the acquisition of a 1TB hard drive
07:22.30RaymondL_johnx, ok, this nick name is cool. so it's some kind of wm hint?
07:22.32crashanddie"But, I ran out of space... I have 600Gig worth of VMs ffs"
07:22.39crashanddie"What is the business requirement for your purchase?"
07:22.43ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: cpu is the bottleneck for your sample, even zero overhead graphics output would not help it much
07:22.44johnxRaymondL_, matchbox window manager is a full screen window manager. I'm pretty sure the keyboard window is classified as a "dock" (like the panels) and so it won't overlap the application window
07:23.13CutMeOwnThroathehe
07:23.15johnxRaymondL_, I would interrogate with keyboard window with some X11 tools and see what it's properties are
07:23.37CutMeOwnThroatfunny, -hardframedrop doesn't help, but creates loads of jpeg artifacts
07:23.56timeless_mbpcrashanddie: working virtualization and reliable hardware :)
07:23.58crashanddieis this someone trying to play HD content again?
07:23.59timeless_mbpand speed
07:24.08timeless_mbpbecause the windows laptops have to have full disk encryption
07:24.38crashanddietimeless_mbp, dude we're going to have to talk
07:24.46RaymondL_johnx, I see.  so without except than matchbox wm, other wm say metacity have similar feature?
07:24.57timeless_mbpthe mac laptops are only required to use File Vault for Nokia confidential stuff
07:25.01ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: you can try halfresolution decoding, '-lavdopts lowres=1', also if you are running mplayer from console, be sure to use -quiet option
07:25.11RaymondL_s/without except/except/
07:25.20crashanddietimeless_mbp, hmm, I'm afraid for us that's going to be a bit more sensitive...
07:25.31Stskeepsmore sensitive than nokia confidential?
07:25.31Stskeeps:P
07:25.34Stskeepsthat's unpossible
07:25.34RaymondL_infobot: right
07:25.35infobotblah blah blah/spam spam spam/yaddayaddayaddayadda sis boom bam
07:25.35Stskeeps:P
07:26.32johnxRaymondL_, metacity will treat the hildon keyboard pretty differently. If I recall, I don't think it handles it very elegantly. this goes for several other window managers. sawfish can be made to work with it to some degree with a bit of configuration work
07:27.20ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: in a somewhat artificial setup, N800 is capable of decoding 480p big buck bunny video in realtime (but without sound) :)
07:27.34CutMeOwnThroatssvb, right, that helps, albeit making things fuzzy and w some jpeg artifacts as well...
07:27.34timeless_mbpRaymondL_: fwiw the behavior is actually awful
07:27.36CutMeOwnThroathehe
07:27.38timeless_mbpso please don't choose to emulate it
07:27.49timeless_mbpit results in all sorts of problems for web browsers
07:27.58RaymondL_johnx, OK, so there is no common way to perform this dock task right? sounds bad.
07:28.02johnxtimeless_mbp, that the window is resized?
07:28.05timeless_mbpyes
07:28.07RaymondL_timeless_mbp: awful?
07:28.18timeless_mbpwhich causes the web page to consider self destructing
07:28.27timeless_mbpbecause it heard about the window size change
07:28.39timeless_mbpand because there was a feature in n4 where resizes did something strange
07:28.41crashanddieStskeeps, www.actividentity.com ;)
07:28.44timeless_mbpso pages would intentionally reload
07:28.46Stskeepscrashanddie: ah :P
07:28.46crashanddieshit, forgot to notice that
07:28.47timeless_mbpoh
07:28.53timeless_mbpand if you reload the page
07:28.59timeless_mbpyou typically lose focus from the input field
07:29.02Stskeepscrashanddie: goatse.cx you say..
07:29.07timeless_mbpwhich means that there's no need for the input method window
07:29.07crashanddielol
07:29.11timeless_mbpwhich means it goes away
07:29.13timeless_mbpwhich means ...
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07:29.21CutMeOwnThroatssvb, indeed I didn't try the audio options that mplayer suggests (and I'm just mostly playing around ... hadn't really though of watching movies on there... but if it can do it of course... I gotta see how well it does)
07:29.50johnxRaymondL_, you can set the dock property under any window manager. It's attached to the window, not the window manager after all, but different window managers treat docks differently
07:30.16RaymondL_timeless_mbp, sounds to me that web browser should fix the problem :)
07:30.32ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: IIRC, some of the audio sampling rates are very bad for performance in mplayer (resampling happens somewhere and kills the performance)
07:30.36timeless_mbpRaymondL_: you mean by implementing our own window manager and input method?
07:30.38timeless_mbpgee, tempting
07:30.44timeless_mbpbut yeah, we're working on it
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07:31.22LiraNunais there dash for maemo?
07:31.22johnxs/working on it/dropping the stylus keyboard/ ?
07:31.41johnxLiraNuna, nope. it's already using ash. There's a bash package
07:31.54LiraNunabash is heavy
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07:32.18johnxdash isn't really meant for users, is it? or were you thinking of running a script from somewhere?
07:32.20CutMeOwnThroatssvb, but I guess the main thing really is "don't try to play a big DivX on a slow CPU!" :)
07:32.36ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: 48KHz audio slows everything down
07:32.53johnxremembers this conversation with ssvb and will drop it on a wiki at some point
07:33.19johnxssvb, so 44.1KHz? Is 22050Hz ok as well?
07:33.36LiraNunajohnx, of course it's meant for users, ls -l /bin/sh lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 2009-02-28 04:04 /bin/sh -> dash
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07:34.14zakkmnormal 350mb 44min xvid's work fine for me on n800?
07:34.31ssvbjohnx: 44.1 should be much better, don't know anything about 22
07:34.44CutMeOwnThroatoh yeah
07:34.48johnxLiraNuna, I should have said "as a login shell"
07:34.59CutMeOwnThroatruns fine with -nosound
07:35.51CutMeOwnThroatnot with -ao null, though - that must still decode and then just dispose of it
07:36.03CutMeOwnThroatbut that means choosing -ao something won't change things
07:36.18LiraNunawhat about cross develop on 64bit? maemo sdk refuses to install
07:36.39ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: you can't be sure that it is fine, it could be displayed in "slow motion"
07:36.57johnxLiraNuna, I know people do it. for the most part you can just hack the installer to not check I think
07:37.15CutMeOwnThroatssvb, well, it's gone away from the stills... that is "fine"
07:37.28LiraNunajohnx, can I compile my own toolchain?
07:37.41CutMeOwnThroattrue, without sound I wouldn't notice if it ran a bit slower
07:37.53ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: that's not fine if you are interested in audio
07:38.09CutMeOwnThroattoo true
07:38.20johnxLiraNuna, I don't know anyone who has, but I guess the answer is "technically, yes."
07:38.35CutMeOwnThroatyou need two of the things :)  one for video, one for audio
07:38.39ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: you can also use -noframedrop option, in this case video will be also smooth, but out of sync with audio
07:39.41ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: and you can adjust playback speed to slow it down a bit, but audio pitch will be wrong
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07:41.01ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: something like '-speed 0.8'
07:41.18CutMeOwnThroatthere's actually a cool audio filter
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07:41.37CutMeOwnThroatscaletempo will adjust the pitch
07:41.45CutMeOwnThroat(not that that's overly helpful in this case)
07:42.13CutMeOwnThroatwhich means you can watch videos at 1.8x speed without thinking you're listening to pixies
07:42.49CutMeOwnThroathm, can one copy&paste in the osso_xterm?
07:42.59zakkmwhats wrong with mplayer?
07:43.06zakkmdoesnt it play well enough for you guys
07:44.00ssvbzakkm: it's not perfect :)
07:44.47zakkmplays perfectly, and theres no way your get 720p going
07:45.01ssvb480p would be nice :)
07:45.10zakkmit does?
07:45.12zakkmnot mpeg-2 tho
07:45.21zakkm480p xvid works just fine?
07:45.40ssvbonly on some videos
07:45.47zakkmtv shows, 175mb/350mb xvid's play fine for me, never notice a framedrop or anything
07:46.06zakkmsure you got a up-to-date mplayer?
07:46.19CutMeOwnThroatwell, -lavdopts lowres=1 is probably the way to go
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07:46.31zakkmthats not 480p then ;p
07:46.41zakkmthats a lower quality, without encoding
07:46.47CutMeOwnThroatno
07:47.00zakkmlowres=1 ..
07:47.05CutMeOwnThroatit specially fuzzes out quite a lot in between keyframes, if I see that right
07:48.13ssvbCutMeOwnThroat: it actually decodes at half resolution, for example uses 4x4 idct instead of 8x8 tweaks motion compensation, etc.
07:48.22CutMeOwnThroathmm
07:48.35zakkmhence = lower quality.
07:48.41CutMeOwnThroatguess I'll have to choose a different sample :)
07:48.54zakkmjust use normal 175mb/350mb xvid's
07:49.06zakkmor if your encoding, go h.264
07:49.23ssvbthis option is only good when you have some video file and want to play it back on your device (having no possibility to transcode it)
07:49.50ssvbthe other hacks are using grayscale decoding, this saves some cpu load too
07:49.56zakkmhave filesize to consider too
07:50.16zakkmif your at home, use knots it would transcode
07:50.20CutMeOwnThroatwell, this is 700MB
07:50.29zakkm700mb what?
07:50.32zakkmhow many mins
07:50.49CutMeOwnThroat1:17
07:50.59zakkmthat should play perfectly
07:51.02zakkm?
07:51.13zakkmwell almost
07:51.14CutMeOwnThroat<PROTECTED>
07:51.21zakkmthat should play okay
07:51.23zakkmg2gg sorry
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07:51.40CutMeOwnThroatnot if there's fast motion
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07:52.04ssvbzakkm: it depends on how the file was encoded, B-frames are good for performance (can be easily skipped without artefacts), qpel is bad
07:52.31ssvbzakkm: gmc is extremely bad for performance
07:53.41CutMeOwnThroathe's gorn!
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07:54.16CutMeOwnThroathow come your auto-complete didn't tell you :)
07:54.17ssvbok :)
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07:56.04ssvbnevertheless default encoding options from xvid are quite good for low cpu usage, but if somebody starts to tweak options, the result may be unplayable on internet tablets
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07:56.48CutMeOwnThroatbuybuy
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08:03.04RaymondL_hmm, seems matchbox-keyboard do resize works under matchbox-wm, by setting the the toolbar type to true
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08:22.48LordFELhi guys
08:23.20lardmanmorning all
08:23.47Stskeepsmorning lardman
08:23.49CutMeOwnThroatindeed, it's 3AM
08:23.50CutMeOwnThroatdamnit
08:23.51CutMeOwnThroatbedtime
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08:24.36RST38hmoo lardman
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08:27.12LordFELI was wondering if I could get some help setting up the SDK... I'm getting a weird error about the installer script not being able to run apt-get update inside scratchbox
08:27.30lardmanhey RST38h
08:27.41lardmanhey Stskeeps
08:28.35Stskeepsheh, smartq brand headphones
08:28.36Stskeepsneat
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08:31.58t_s_ohey Stskeeps, where did you get hold of your new toy?
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08:36.16Stskeepst_s_o: a long shot
08:37.43Stskeepsasked if they would like to donate one to the mer project .. and provided they hold their bargain we get 2 donated and 10 developer rebates
08:38.21Stskeepsi got one, zenvoid waiting for his
08:38.41RST38hhave you got their devkit already?
08:38.55t_s_oholy smokes, thats nice
08:39.25StskeepsRST38h: not yet. but their community has produced a firmware maker
08:39.57Stskeepsi just asked yesterday for that info so (kernel plus firmware maaker)
08:41.13t_s_ohmm, reading a article just now, is this device smaller then the N800?
08:41.15RST38hah
08:41.40Stskeepst_s_o: screen size same, but no dpad or kickstand
08:41.47t_s_oah
08:41.52Stskeepsor good speakers
08:42.40Stskeepsits a neat low cost tablet
08:44.08Stskeepsscreen is quite nice and it seems to be armv7
08:44.21Stskeepsand its light
08:44.50lardmanwhat's this device?
08:45.11Stskeepssmartq 5 mid
08:45.29Stskeepsruns ubuntu 8.04
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08:46.14lardmanis looking for something MID-like
08:46.50lardmanno kb though?
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08:47.32lardmanlooks cool though, and very cheap
08:49.03lardmanI used Navicore (or whatever it's called now) to navigate to and from Norfolk this weekend, and it was pretty good
08:49.26lardmanI don't know what people were complaining about, other than the "take turn now" once you've already turned down it/gone past it ;)
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08:57.30lcuklardman - "at the traffic circle"
08:57.38lcuktracy loves todd
08:57.45lardmanno, it says roundabout I think doesn't it?
08:58.03lcuki think it depends which voice
08:58.16lardmanby that point my codriver has already told me which exit and I'm lining up on the racing line...
08:58.32lardmanleft 40, do not cut, flat in 4th
08:58.33lardmanetc
08:58.34lcukheh yeah so u survived then
08:58.50lardmanyeah, no phone signals in Norfolk though, quite a quiet weekend
08:58.58lcukthats a good thing
08:59.20lcuki have only ever been there once
08:59.21t_s_oif its the gps system used on the tablets, i think people is complaining about the "hidden" cost...
08:59.41lcukyes t_s_o i agree there
08:59.53lardmanyeah perhaps, I got a licence + new Nokia GPS (i.e. BT, one which works) for £30 or so
09:00.01lcukbut the functionality itself is worth having
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09:01.04lardmanthose sirfstar3 GPSes are bloody wonderful, drive a few hundred miles, turn it on and it's locked in about 10s flat inside a car
09:02.06t_s_oheh, now im tempted to get myself a new one. i got a sirf2 or something as i didnt do my research properly...
09:02.12t_s_onot that i use gps much so...
09:02.19lardmanwonders, GPS navigation which outputs pacenotes.... :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacenotes
09:02.20lcukyeah, what it doesnt tell u is that it uses a camera, looks at the sky and uses stars properly ;)
09:02.38LiraNunaScummVM works really well on the N810
09:02.48lcukcrashes vista for the 10th time this mornin
09:02.55lardmant_s_o: over here you can get them for next to nothing (not the Nokia one, but same chipset) i.e. £30, I'd recommend it over the previous gen
09:03.23lardmanlcuk: well in Norfolk that might actually work, you can see more than 3 stars there!
09:03.53timeless_mbplooks for a nokian
09:04.00timeless_mbpconsiders walking to work to hunt one down
09:04.21lardmantimeless_mbp: bow or gun?
09:04.22timeless_mbpandre__: thanks
09:04.33timeless_mbplardman: leash
09:04.41timeless_mbpi just need someone to try logging into a mailbox
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09:04.48timeless_mbpactually, a net would work too
09:04.53timeless_mbpor snare
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09:12.15LiraNunaDotT works really really nice on the N810, even without HW accel
09:12.57RST38hwhy would it require hw acceleration?
09:13.20LiraNunalarge rendering buffer
09:13.41LiraNunaI see no tearing which is nice
09:14.15RST38hit is just showing pictures
09:14.43RST38hshowing a static picture has never been a problem really
09:19.57lcukRST38h, apart from on Stskeeps' dodgy n800
09:20.30LiraNunahaha
09:20.43lardmanoo, I've got 65 for discussion karma now, I think that's more than I had before
09:21.38lcukarent u a moderator now - cant u just adjust your karma to whatever you want
09:21.49lcukor tell ppl to thank you or be banned (mwahahahah)
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09:28.24RST38hlcuk: that;s a feature
09:32.12lcukits only a feature if you can control it !
09:35.02wjtfeh. ScummVM really suffers from it being impossible to hover over things without clicking them
09:35.14wjtI found Beneath a Steel Sky pretty hard as a result
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10:03.10RST38hlcuk: He can turn it on and off!
10:03.17lcukwjt, you can hover over things, but the system cannot detect you doing so
10:03.24RST38hthat's control, isn't it? B)
10:03.25lcukRST38h, thats a good point
10:03.32wjtlcuk: well yes :)
10:03.39lcukso to stop scrolling he shuts down pc
10:03.44wjtlcuk: i think it would have been better to have clicking mapped to hovering
10:03.51wjtlcuk: and to use the zoom buttons as LMB/RMB
10:03.53lcukwjt, not at all
10:04.01wjtlcuk: not in the entire tablet
10:04.09wjtlcuk: just for scumm
10:04.24wjtbecause quite a few scumm puzzles depend on you scrubbing for usable objects
10:04.25lcukbetter to have a windowing system that is happy with a mouse pointer that isnt continuous and will warp
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10:10.59RST38hlcuk: and made of bacon.
10:11.11superjoeRST38h: I'm reading your emulator howto pages
10:11.14superjoegood stuff
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10:15.06lardmanlcuk: sorry for the tardy reply, had to get caffeine to counteract the swine flu
10:15.24lardmanlcuk: no discussion karma is for ml posts
10:17.42lardmananyway, when do we expect the n900?
10:17.57lardmanattempts to get back in the loop
10:18.35lcukyou missed it, we are aiming for the n910 now :P
10:18.42lardmandrat! ;)
10:19.32X-Fadelardman: You don't have one yet? Everybody in here has had it for a long time ;) You're really missing out!
10:20.13lcukmornin X-Fade '\o
10:20.29lardmanX-Fade: :p anyway aren't you supposed to be working out where my Discussion karma has leaked away to? ;)
10:20.39lardman:D
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10:20.56X-Fadelardman: One thing to check is if it at least grows when you post a message now.
10:21.19lardmanok, I'll have a look at that
10:21.35lcukcan we rename karma pinocchio
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10:25.43jaskanose-over-ip
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10:32.36lardmanAnyone have any recommendations for usb-vga adaptors? Are they all SiS based?
10:34.10GAN800lardman, MTK is better than SiRF
10:34.34GAN800Stskeeps, is it a Cortex?
10:34.46lardmanGAN800: you reckon?
10:34.49StskeepsGAN800: samsung
10:34.57Stskeepskernel claims it's armv7
10:35.00GAN800lardman, the Startech is good for Linux compat.
10:35.15GAN800Stskeeps, then is it Cortex?
10:35.17lardmanI'm looking at cheapness as a major factor here
10:36.28GAN800m
10:36.31GAN800lardman, MTK has vastly better powersaving. SiRF IIIc is more inline, but nobody ships it.
10:36.54StskeepsGAN800: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Hardware/SmartQ5
10:36.57lardmanfair enough, with a stand alone it doesn't make much odds though as the batteries are pretty big
10:37.10GAN800Stskeeps, because if it's ARM11, as I've so often heard, then that makes exactly zero sense.
10:37.20radicis the use of hwclock --systohc not needed on the N800?
10:37.46GAN800lardman, my i-Blue can easily run for 25 hours active.
10:38.11GAN800The Startech.com VGA adaptors are about as cheap as they get.
10:38.24lardmanthat's longer than my n810 will run... so not necessary for me anyway. I think my SirfStar3 ones will last something like 15h, which is more than enough
10:38.47GAN800thinks the nightmare he just woke up from probably has good potential as a horror flick.
10:39.10lardmanthose are pretty dear over here ~£75 afaict
10:39.15GAN800lardman, the i-Blue can sit for a week idle, however.
10:39.35GAN800Anyway, point is, MTK is usually cheaper, too.
10:40.31lardmanyeah but that's down to the gps controller, not the chipset, it switches it off and assumes that it can fast fix to overcome any problems
10:40.51GAN800Stskeeps, something REALLY isn't meshing up there.
10:41.06GAN800Stskeeps, is it or is it not a Cortex A8?
10:41.06lardmananyway I've not got an MTK one so I can't really comment, ss3 just looked a better bet when I bought one last year
10:41.08StskeepsGAN800: well, it's armv6+vfp definately
10:41.37GAN800lardman, SiRF III units don't do that.
10:42.05GAN800You didn't look hard enough then. :P
10:42.29GAN800Stskeeps, I dunno what to say, if it aint Cortex, it aint armv7
10:42.31lardmanyes they do
10:43.04lardmananyway I'm quite contented :)
10:43.13StskeepsGAN800: i'm baffled too really
10:43.48GAN800The fairly obvious answer is that somebody is lying
10:44.09GAN800and that you should perpetrait the lie yourself. :P
10:44.10Stskeepsthey only claimed a certain samsung chip at least
10:44.22GAN800s/should/shouldn't/
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10:44.34RST38hperpetrate.
10:44.41lardmanperpetuate
10:44.57GAN800Whatever, I just woke up.
10:45.05lardmando vs continue
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10:46.42GAN800This is really rather clearly ARM11: http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/productInfo.do?fmly_id=229&partnum=S3C6410
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10:47.11GAN800So it really can't also be armv7
10:47.24Stskeepstrue
10:48.04genewitchI just recommended the n800 to a bunch of people for use in journalism, in combination with Wifi-SD cards for their cameras and a cellphone connection. :-)
10:48.25genewitchthey tend to get arrested a lot, i figured there's no way to destroy evidence if it's already been uploaded with a script :-)
10:48.28lardmanperhaps they are just getting confused with the hw vs instruction set naming
10:48.38lardmani.e. arm7 is the instruction set
10:48.51GAN800ARM11 is
10:49.03lardmanis the name of the hw
10:49.06Stskeepseither way
10:49.10Stskeepsi got their kernel and FW imaging scripts.
10:49.40RST38hcan't quite understand why having a certain ARM chip makes such a big difference
10:50.21Stskeepscos it'd be awesome if it was armv7 and that cheap? :P
10:50.34lardmans/arm7/arm11
10:50.45lardman:)
10:51.15Stskeepsthis is the kind of tablet we can't rely on dpad interaction on
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10:53.14Stskeepsoh, and http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-smartq.png , i didn't paste in here i think :P
10:53.26GAN800lardman, ARM11 is armv6. There's no confusion there.
10:54.15lardmanfair enough
10:54.43lardmantoo many numbers for my liking :)
10:55.59GAN800thingamabobber
10:56.19lardmanwhatyamacallit
10:56.33lardmanwhatyamacallit version 11 that is
10:56.37lcukStskeeps, how well does it run
10:56.45Stskeepslcuk: good
10:56.48lcukis the framebuffer nice
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10:57.24GAN800Engadget had a story recently about some idiot campaigning for less 'technical' language. Dont use words like 'desktop', etc.
10:58.10lcuknothing wrong with less technical, there are more people without computer knowledge than with :)
10:58.35GAN800lcuk, there is when your definition of 'technical' is was off.
10:58.39GAN800s/was/way/
10:59.25lcuki know a lot of people who would be banging on the wooden worktop when you said click on the desktop
10:59.37lardmanthinks desktop is reasonably straight-forward, in the same way as door-handle, etc
10:59.41GAN800For instance, what would you have mechanics call fuel injectors? Or sparkplugs? Those are technical terms by this guy's definition.
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11:00.20lcukgan800 nothing wrong with technical people talking technical terms at each other
11:00.35GAN800There's a reason for 'technical' language, and that's because specific names for specific things are easier than describing everything as a 'widget' or 'whatchamadoo'
11:00.37lardmansecret car bits that live under the bonnet?
11:00.47lcukdoesnt know how a fuel injector works
11:00.57lardmanwould lcuk like a lesson....?
11:01.10GAN800lcuk, nor is there in the expectation that people's vocabularies should exceed 2000 words.
11:01.18genewitchit has a hole, and fuel goes through it
11:01.22lcukheh nope, i have my comfort zone, john up the street fixes the car, i fix the comp[uters
11:01.49lardman:)
11:03.13lcukthe worst is telling a non computer person to right click on something, they always mishear you and think you said "right, click on ...."
11:03.50lcukso you have to reword it as click with your right mouse button - yes the one on the right hand side
11:04.33GAN800Must be a UK thing.
11:05.02GAN800We never really say, 'Right, . . . ' over here in that particular context.
11:05.57lardmanso that's why they always know I'm a Brit
11:06.19lcukand thats why assumptions of acceptable language are not universal and keeping it as simple as possible is good
11:07.48*** join/#maemo hannesw_ (n=hannes@public-wlan.oe3.sil.at)
11:07.58GAN800There's a point at which 'simple' makes things vastly more complicated as you don't have anything specific enough to describe what you're talking about and end up having to describe things as 'widgets' and 'thingamabobs'.
11:08.11GAN800This is the line that the guy crossed.
11:08.42GAN800Ah, penguinbait, classy Planet post with classy comments.
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11:15.37cosmo_heh, looks like my mer is broken
11:15.46cosmo_it's in reboot loop
11:16.29Stskeepswe have reboot loops? jffs edition?
11:18.16t_s_oStskeeps: another mer target? http://www.slashgear.com/zhongyi-s101-mid-gets-hands-on-0542811/
11:18.26RST38hStskeeps: Got Mer running on that PMP? =)
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11:20.09radicStskeeps: is an proxy available for contentfiltering?
11:21.37Knirchcan someone please set me straight if I'm wrong, but just read this ticket: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1045 which is marked as resolved, in freemantle, will freemantle eventually run on a n810? if not, how on earth can that ticket be considerd resolved? is there a FAQ regarding nokia made bugfixes where I can read up on policy instead?
11:22.07StskeepsRST38h: yup
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11:23.13StskeepsRST38h: it's actually more of a MID
11:23.15t_s_oKnirch: lets just say its a hot topic on the forum ;)
11:23.52Knircht_s_o: right, so it's the same situation as it's been since 770? I thought that had changed :/ thanks
11:24.05StskeepsKnirch: on the other hand Mer is in good progress
11:24.14KnirchStskeeps: aye
11:24.21Stskeepsso the community will have a OS in their hands they control
11:24.33t_s_oStskeeps: is the wifi power save working in mer?
11:24.40Stskeepst_s_o: yeah, it does now - (on n8x0?)
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11:30.04usicowAt some stage I had to kill the media player, and since then it doesnt see any media thats on my removable SD card. When I open the media player it says 'refreshing library', but nothing ever happens.. and the CPU looks like its not doing anything at all. Does anyone know how I can fix this?
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11:30.46SavagoHello there, good morning.
11:31.09SavagoI'm trying to compile some Qt code on fremantle sdk, but got some linker errors: http://pastebin.com/d55f98e40
11:31.18SavagoAnyone has an idea of what could be missing?
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11:32.41aapohi, I'm porting game named openttd to maemo (diablo). It works but it has "famous" sdl-not-showing-window-in-list-issue and I cant fix it. What is current solution for it?
11:32.54Stskeepsaapo: isn't it already ported?
11:33.04Stskeepsremembers playing it
11:33.25glassremembers it having been ported in the 770 days
11:34.08lcukaapo, for a window to show in the list it has to be registered with osso/hildon i think
11:34.33lcukotherwise you are an outcast and your handle falls by the wayside
11:34.41lcuka shame really
11:34.59RST38hStskeeps: !!!
11:35.19StskeepsRST38h: less than 24 hours it took me
11:35.20aapoStskeeps, I didn't found current release and compiled it. Very few patches needed
11:35.37StskeepsRST38h: and i have the kernel and the GPL imager now
11:35.49RST38hhurrahs thrice
11:36.14Stskeepsinitially i thought it didn't work, but the problem was actually the backlight off ;p
11:36.50lcuk"let there be light"
11:37.01Stskeepssshed in and turned backlight on .. :)
11:37.16lcukdo you  think god used ssh  too?
11:37.43KnirchI bet he wrote a script in lisp
11:37.46RST38hGod used makefiles.
11:38.12RST38hNamely, He used gmake, that's where g- came from.
11:38.20GAN800Knirch, Nokia is helping backport the Fremantle stuff through Mer.
11:38.35StskeepsGAN800: doesn't apply to media player though
11:38.42Stskeepswhich was the example :)
11:39.15X-FadeStskeeps: Did you notice any problems with sysv-rc vs mini-rc?
11:39.29KnirchGAN800: ok, doesn't change anything though, one would expect software issues to be resolved in the device I own, with the firmware I bought
11:39.34StskeepsX-Fade: for the fremantle stuff? don't think so
11:39.40Stskeepsthey're switching to upstart anyway
11:39.47KnirchGAN800: I do like Mer, even more so due to stuff like this
11:39.52X-FadeStskeeps: Yeah, I guess that is what mini-rc is for?
11:40.27X-FadeStskeeps: At the moment we aren't able to build any package, which uses nokia-binaries, because it wants to install mini-rc
11:40.35X-FadeWhich in turn removes sysv-rc ;)
11:40.38StskeepsX-Fade: ah, i didn't look at mini-rc at all
11:40.40Stskeepsas in
11:40.41Stskeepsnokia-binaries
11:40.47KnirchGAN800: It's just depressing to see they _still_ do this, fix something for the upcoming devices and leave the old ones behind, regardless of support for community project, hack editions whatnot
11:41.09lcukKnirch, which bug?
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11:41.39Knirchthe one I used as an example to ask my question was this: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1045
11:41.40t_s_ohttp://xkcd.com/224/
11:43.20GeneralAntillesKnirch, in this case, it's more justified than not.
11:43.34Stskeeps"metalayer-crawler is a POS"? :P
11:43.46lcuklol t_s_o
11:43.51KnirchGeneralAntilles: as an example
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11:44.03usicowwhat is the latest version of maemo os2008?
11:44.11GeneralAntillesIt's a weak deal, sure, but the reality is that Nokia can't deliver Fremantle with the experience they want to have on OMAP2 hardware.
11:44.13X-FadeStskeeps: Anyway, it is giving me a lot of pain right now ;)
11:44.30KnirchGeneralAntilles: that's an absurd argument
11:44.53StskeepsX-Fade: my gripe is mostly with scratchbox-isms currently.. i hope it will be a requirement for extras to not contain sb-isms, heh :P
11:44.54GeneralAntillesKnirch, you wouldn't say that if you were familiar with the hardware and software involved.
11:44.59Stskeeps(using maemian checks)
11:45.00Knirchwhat you're saying is that my current hardware is incapable of sorting
11:45.12Stskeepsah, so it's the "no more updates for diablo"
11:45.12Stskeeps:P
11:45.15Stskeepsargument
11:45.16GeneralAntillesKnirch, no, I'm not talking about any specific bug.
11:45.19Knirchheaddesks
11:45.43GeneralAntillesI'm talking about Fremantle on OMAP2.
11:45.48KnirchI understand that freemantle won't run on my current device, I'm fine with that
11:45.56Knirchdevelopment can't stand still
11:45.57GeneralAntillesSince Fremantle was menionted earlier, I assumed that was what this was about.
11:46.00Knirchbut _bugfixes_
11:46.17KnirchGeneralAntilles: yes, the bug is resolved since it's resolved in freemantle
11:46.26GeneralAntilless/freemantle/Fremantle/g
11:46.58GeneralAntillesAnyway, Media player sucks. Why would anybody want to use it over the dozen and one open source community alternatives?
11:47.23Knirchand yet again, I only used that as an example to ask my question which has been answered
11:47.31lcuktechnically because its the simplest and most default and installed everywhere and generally "works"
11:47.44RST38his kinda concerned that of all the applications Nokia provides with its device, only MicroB works semidecently
11:47.54Knirchthat almost no more bug will be fixed in nokia branded software for my current device, just like it was when I only had the 770 :)
11:47.57RST38hs/applications/major end-user application
11:48.22GeneralAntillesRST38h, this is why I think people shouting for more bundled applications and bundled community applications are silly.
11:48.46RST38hGeneral: I just think Nokia has to put its act together
11:49.25RST38hThe main usage cases (web,mail,music,video,photo) should sparkle
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11:50.33GeneralAntillesI'm thinking it'll come together with Fremantle onward.
11:50.45timeless_mbpRST38h: sparkle, crack, pop... ?
11:50.49GeneralAntilleslcuk, oh, and that's a stupid reason to hamstring yourself with shitty software.
11:51.09timeless_mbps/pop/poop/ ?
11:51.30lcukwhat is? minimal working stuff - when i need it it works - i still use shitty winamp here at home because it does what i need and doesnt try to get in my way
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11:51.35GeneralAntillesIt's actually a good thing that MicroB sucks so much, as its endless focus and virtual input bugs are the only things forcing me to use a real computer.
11:51.43timeless_mbpheh
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11:52.59ShadowJKinput bugs? What are those? I haven't found those yet :-)
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11:53.42lcuktimeless_mbp, did you forget to remove those #ifdef user==GAN things again
11:53.55GeneralAntillesShadowJK, the fact that the finger keyboard just plain doesn't work.
11:54.08ShadowJKah
11:54.25ShadowJKmy N800's touchscreen is still not too crap to use the stylus keyboard with finger
11:54.34GeneralAntillesI'm utterly amazed OS2008 made it out the door and THEN managed to ship updates for a year and virtual input is still so UTTERLY BROKEN.
11:54.46GeneralAntillesIt's the one thing that regularly makes me want to punt my tablet out a window.
11:55.00lcukcan we have a video whilst you do?
11:55.01ShadowJKand on my N810 I'd rather use the finger keyboard with fingers, but alas once the touchscreen goes insensitive it no longer distinguishes between stylus and fingertap..
11:55.58lcukShadowJK, yeah x11 picks up the stylus input using a threshhold - if i use native x11 mouse events i get broken strokes and missed input
11:56.12lcukbut using the xsp pressure library it registers whole strokes
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11:57.06lcuki keep pondering if the threshhold can be changed, but x11 is big and imposing
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11:59.20Stskeepsafternoon jeremiah_
11:59.32ShadowJKI'd want a different threshold for different parts of the screen...
11:59.48lcuka few people have said that - basically a pair of glasses
11:59.54lcukbut for x11 and gtk you dont need that
12:00.00lcuksince pressure isnt natively required
12:00.03Stskeepshack up tslib? :P
12:00.14lcukyou simply need to know when you touched it
12:00.43lcukStskeeps, the problem is how do you configure it - it would have to be a warp map as well
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12:00.54Stskeepstrue
12:00.59lcukand it would have to adjust with temp and stuff
12:01.25lcukgranted, if it were a nasa project we would reprocess all input and throw it through a mask and out the other side
12:01.40lcuk(like hubble had done)
12:02.07ShadowJKlcuk, well I'd want it to require the same pressure to register as click everywhere... I think it'd be much nicer to use if I had to stab it everywhere, instead of having this ring where literally just touching it registers as click, and a circle in the middle that requires serious stabbing to register as click, and the edges that require pressure somewhere in between. When I type on the onscreen keyboards, when I move from a letter on the sensitive area to a
12:02.13ShadowJKletter on the insensitive area, I start losing letters because what worked for the previous letters don't work for the other ones
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12:02.42lcukhttp://www.tom-carden.co.uk/2005/07/28/grid-warp/
12:03.00lcukShadowJK, you really wouldnt notice - a touch is a touch
12:03.38Stskeepsponders how much power budget that USB port has
12:03.44lcukif your screen is soooooooo bad its not registering anything at all unless punched no amount of hacking will work
12:03.53lcukStskeeps, 8x0 or q?#
12:03.57ShadowJKOh but what registers are click on the sensitive area, didn't produce any visible results (or randomly distorted results) when I tried liqbase as you suggested
12:04.00Stskeepslcuk: q5
12:04.12Stskeepsit is shown with a gprs dongle so
12:04.15ShadowJKlcuk, hack the thresholds so that I need a punch everywhere :-)
12:04.24ShadowJKi.e. different threshold for different areas of screen
12:04.53lcukbut if the pressure isnt reporting being touched thats a different issue
12:05.13lcukyou just said its not reporting correctly from liqbase - in that case thats worse
12:05.26lcuksince im asking the xsp library directly for pressure readings
12:05.58ShadowJKI can touch the screen with stylus (lightly) on all of the screen without seeing anything drawn in liqbase
12:06.39X-FadeShadowJK: It is a resistive touchscreen. You need to apply some presure.
12:06.55ShadowJKif I apply minimal of pressure, there's a "halo" where stuff is drawn, basically a circular band that excludes the middle and the edges
12:07.07ShadowJKif I apple moderate pressure, it registers on the edges too
12:07.14ShadowJKif I apply lots of pressure, it registers on the entire screen
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12:08.30ShadowJKNow obviously the screen is reporting different pressure values for the same amount of physical pressure, depending on where on the screen I'm pressing... So I'd want a a way to calibrate either the pressure reporting, or the thresholds
12:09.06lcukbut if the screen is NOT returning any reported values for a particular location (using the pressure library) then how can changing the threshhold help
12:09.16lcukthat is a different issue to the one i am talking about
12:09.37ShadowJKthen I don't know what issue you're talking about?
12:10.34lcukim talking about getting broken lines and missing clicks when i DO click hard enough and there are values reported in pressure library, but x11 takes a hard threshhold and if you press over that it registers a mousedown
12:11.12ShadowJKhuh, if you press too hard?
12:12.14lcuki know how hard to press because i am writing all the time, i also know when i have compiled liqbase to include or exclude pressure support because when im writing it comes out broken using x11 alone and together when using pressure library
12:12.54ShadowJKhm, do you want it to not register mouseup until no pressure at all is registered?
12:12.57lcukbut anyway, enough typin for today
12:13.25ShadowJKwas talking about the thing not registering taps
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12:15.54ShadowJKAnyway... what I would like is a tap-calibration... Provide calibration targets, say 16 x 8 of them or more... have me tap all of them with equal pressure (how to do this is left as an excercise to the reader ;), record the reported pressure, interpolate it over all of the screen, and use that as threshold for reporting mousedown
12:16.19RST38hAnd how do you intend to maintain the same pressure between taps?
12:17.05ShadowJKOh temporarily tape a AAA battery to the stylus and just use fingers to guide it to stand on the targets, or something similar..
12:17.15ShadowJKgravity
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12:18.43RST38hDo you expect this to be included into the paper user manual? =)
12:18.54usicowhow can I tell if meta-crawler is working or not?
12:19.43ShadowJKRST38h, they could include a plastic widget for it :)
12:20.09RST38hInclude a single AA battery, then watch poor users as they try to insert it into the gadget
12:20.43usicowWhen I run meta-crawler in debug mode I get 'Segment fault' how could I get more information about why thats happening?
12:21.37usicowmetalayer-crawler rather
12:22.46RST38hmake it drop a core then gdb meta-crawler core
12:22.52ShadowJKRST38h, the obvious solution is to not have crapass touchscreen
12:23.07ShadowJKBut failing that, I guess you have to fix the hardware in software somehow
12:23.09RST38hShadow: Or, at least, do not bend it during installation
12:24.04X-Fadeusicow: if you create a folder called core-dumps in the root of your mmc1, you should get a core dump.
12:24.10ShadowJKI wonder what Nokia Care would tell me about touchscreen sensitivity
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12:24.34ShadowJKwould they tell me it's fine as long as a alkaline D battery attached to stylus registers as click? :-)
12:25.30RST38hThey will tell you it is absolutely normal
12:25.53RST38hAnd if you ask why an application X does ot register pressure evenly, they will tell you thta they do not support 3rd party apps
12:26.10ShadowJKbut it's noticeable in... Sketch!
12:26.26RST38hIs Sketch a bundled app?
12:26.29ShadowJKya
12:26.43ShadowJKthe stylus keyboard too
12:26.58RST38hThis will make 'em think a little bit then come up with some other explanation
12:27.15ShadowJKthey'll blame my operator
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12:27.20RST38hThe last bubble in their diagram is probably "send your device for repairs"
12:28.35ShadowJKhaving attached an AAA battery to my stylus now with a cabletie...
12:28.44ShadowJKthe upper edge of hte screen notices nothing :)
12:29.03RST38hShadow: Just drop it from a bigger height
12:29.14ShadowJKI'm not dropping at all
12:32.01ShadowJKI should post pic of stylus with battery to ITT and claim it's a call-home feature of the N900 stylus, so you can find it when you lose it
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12:32.59lcukif you genuinely want to find a reproducable testing mechanism, using a steel ball bearing of specified diameter and density and roll it around the screen.  (like the game lbt mentioned last night)
12:33.23RST38hoh yesss
12:33.44ShadowJKYeah I was thinking something liek that would be ideal
12:33.51RST38hin fact, there is no need for a specific diameter or density
12:33.59RST38hbecause you are looking for relative values
12:34.21lcukcourse there is - if i used a pingpong ball vs a steelie it wont be the same
12:34.49ShadowJKwell, with stylus and AAA I can paint approx 75% of the screen :)
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12:34.56RST38hyea, you want it to be heavy enough
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12:52.14usicowis there a way to scan and correct any corruption on an SD card in the N810?
12:52.26timeless_mbpany corruption?
12:52.39timeless_mbpthere's a way to scan sd corruptions for certain corruptions
12:52.50timeless_mbpbut we can't guarantee that we would understand any random corruption
12:52.57usicowfair enough.. :)
12:53.08timeless_mbpit's available from file manager
12:53.15usicowthanks
12:53.17timeless_mbpyou should of course be running the latest os release
12:53.24usicowyep
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13:13.34ShadowJKhm...
13:13.47ShadowJKlooks like tslib's linear module has stuff for pressure scaling
13:13.51ShadowJKbut no way to set it :)
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13:19.42RST38hIf I rmemeber correctly, the device returns an 8bit pressure reding
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13:19.55RST38hHowever you scale it, it is still a faulty 8bit pressure reading
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13:44.26man_in_ltopwaves
13:44.49man_in_ltopso i've been playing nethack on maemo
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13:45.24man_in_ltopit's got some annoying quirks :D
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13:54.53lopzhola
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14:04.08man_in_ltopHOLLAR
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14:08.20man_in_ltopOooh, i remember what's i wanted
14:09.06man_in_ltopdictionary for maemo :D
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14:09.26man_in_ltopi see dict client, but i want something stored locally :)
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14:13.32lardmanstardict or something like that
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14:13.47lardmanthere are a couple of them around, or there were anyway
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14:14.30woglindehi lardman
14:14.39lardmanhey woglinde
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14:35.01Macerhm
14:35.12Macertrying to install some working printer drivers for this stupid brother laserprinter
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14:39.20man_in_ltopanyone tried nethack on maemo? :)
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14:40.28RST38h"For those a little delicate, we have tried them, and although they be a little sandy, they are delicious."
14:40.39RST38hGuess (without Google) what it was about
14:41.05man_in_ltopsomething that you normally see in porn?
14:41.17RST38hmmm, no, not really
14:41.27RST38hwould be too simple
14:41.44man_in_ltopiphone
14:41.50RST38hno.
14:41.55RST38hno gadget porn either.
14:41.59man_in_ltopam i warmer?
14:44.11Macerwtf
14:44.17Macernow the gnome printing utility just disappeared
14:44.29Macerbecause apt-get removed it for i can't even understand what reason
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14:45.50RST38hman: not at all
14:45.58RST38hAny more takers?
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14:47.30RST38hOk, the answer: http://www.anarchistnews.org/?q=node/7202
14:48.41andre__Macer: what is a "gnome printing utility"? print dialogs, or talking about a specific package?
14:49.00Macerthe little printing app that pops up under administration
14:49.09Macerfor some reason apt-get removed it and i don't know what pkg it is a part of
14:51.12Maceri thnk i found it
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14:51.34Macerthat made no sense
14:51.43Maceri have no idea why apt-get would remove something like that when it is in use
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14:54.42Macerwell.. got it working
14:54.48Macerthat was a bigger pain than i thought it would be :)
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15:23.07GAN800andre__, you want to start a pool on when we'll get an answer on 3602? :P
15:24.15jeremiah_GAN800: I'm in. 10 Euros says not until June.
15:24.56andre__heh
15:24.57jeremiah_Oops. Should have read the whole thread.
15:25.02jeremiah_I take it back.
15:25.10jeremiah_That might never get answered.
15:25.55andre__i should fly to helsinki, get a list of people that don't answer, and block their doors until i get one. ;-)
15:26.07andre__GAN800, got some maemo.org bugzilla template file somewhere?
15:26.35GAN800andre__, got a local copy of the svn I've been poking at.
15:26.42andre__oh nice
15:26.49andre__(sorry for responding so late)
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15:26.54GAN800I think I might need to reclone and start over, though.
15:26.55andre__and? works(tm)? :)
15:26.58andre__uh
15:27.11GAN800Dunno, got nothing to test it with.
15:27.29GAN800I moved the footer stuff into the sidebar
15:27.36andre__but can you send me a patch?
15:27.39GAN800Which I don't think will work.
15:27.46andre__hmm, that might be... confusing
15:27.51ShadowJKandre__, how about recruiting someone in here to deliver a copy of the question, constructed by cutting out letters from magazines and gluing to a sheet of paper, to their mailboxes?
15:27.54GAN800Um, yeah, probably tomorrow
15:28.19andre__GAN800, well, options stuff isn't needed that often IMO (at least not for average users), hence bottom is probably preferable
15:28.23GAN800Any chance of testing it somewhere or do I need to setup a local install?
15:28.38andre__we should test it on testzilla IMO
15:28.54andre__ShadowJK, now that sounds like a plan! :)
15:29.09GAN800I'll work on it tonight and toss you a patch tomorrow.
15:29.12jeremiah_There are loads and loads of packages that do not have the right maintainer in maemo.
15:29.40GAN800I like the ones with Ubuntu mailing lists as maintainers.
15:29.42jeremiah_If we are going to start rejecting or demoting packages, we need to have the right email address of whomever uploaded the package.
15:29.48jeremiah_GAN800: lol
15:29.57andre__heh
15:29.58jeremiah_I haven't seen that yet. :)
15:30.27GAN800ntp-docs
15:30.32jeremiah_I wonder if we can co-ordinate the garage email address with uploading a package?
15:31.12jeremiah_And spit out an error message if they don't match?
15:31.29GAN800I wish we could get the goddamn categories out the door so we can start harassing maintainers
15:32.21GAN800So far all we've freaking gotten from Nokia for Mer and continued Diablo support is a lot of hot air.
15:32.39jeremiah_GAN800: Yeah, that is a good think too.
15:32.42jeremiah_thing
15:33.02jeremiah_Sorry, what I am trying to say is I agree with you.
15:33.16jeremiah_fingers    so     cold
15:33.24ShadowJKneed more hot air
15:33.36jeremiah_BTW, this is a little weird, but works: http://test.maemo.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi
15:33.38GAN800Can't even get them to look at work-free website patches.
15:33.42GAN800sighs
15:33.50jeremiah_I need to strip the icons somehow, but otherwise.
15:34.06GAN800I miss the maemo applications wiki page.
15:34.10jeremiah_Try 'chrpath' for example
15:34.15GAN800The Days Before Extras
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15:42.40torkianohttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1282 :(
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15:43.13torkianois there a aptitude port for maemo?
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15:44.13jeremiah_torkiano: I haven't seen one.
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15:45.39timeless_mbpandre__: ping
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15:46.10andre__timeless_mbp, pong
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15:46.29timeless_mbpso, about my notes bug
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15:46.37timeless_mbpcan you please hit them with a cluebat
15:46.52timeless_mbpa quick test shows that you don't "always" get that error message
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15:47.06timeless_mbpand any sane person would tell you that you can't usefully give that error message
15:47.11andre__please hit them yourself. see the int ref in the alias field...
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15:47.17timeless_mbpyeah, i looked
15:47.18andre__it's really easier. you have access to test that stuff
15:47.24timeless_mbpi'm now more depressed than i was before
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15:47.33andre__even if you hate discussing it directly with them ;-))
15:47.43timeless_mbpyou can see why!
15:47.57andre__yeah. i've seen enough such cases.
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16:08.50qgilGeneralAntilles: hi, do you remember whether there is a high-res maemo.org logo somewhere in maemo.org?
16:09.22qgilah http://maemo.org/legal/terms_of_use/trademarks/logos/
16:09.55GAN800Still haven't managed to round up an svg of the favicon. . . .
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16:56.58iamlindoroHi Guys, having some trouble with maemo/n810 and hoping it might be a common issue-- Attempting to use the n810 in USB host mode to serve as the master for a device my company is building-- plug in the device, issue lsusb (and see expected results), and the system hangs within a few seconds, then resets itself.  Thinking it might be power related, but have tried the same through a powered hub and the problem persists-- Our device
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16:58.33Stskeepsand i presume you did enable usb host, after rmmod g_file_storage?
16:58.54iamlindoroDid the former, had not tried the latter
16:59.27iamlindoroCan give that a shot if you think it might help
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16:59.46Stskeepsgive it a try :)
16:59.52iamlindorosure, thanks, will do that right now
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17:08.56iamlindoroHmm, I seem to lose USB entirely when I rmmod g_file_storage
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17:37.42tank-manive heard someone else with the same rebooting issue with a usb keyboard, but he wasnt using the stock kernel
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17:43.17iamlindorotank-man: Fancy seeing you here-- All stock here, including repositories-- only thing added has been openssh-server and usbcontrol
17:43.22iamlindorostock otherwise
17:46.15tank-mananything interesting from "dmesg" before the reboot?
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17:48.22iamlindoronot that I've managed to intercept, I have noticed that I can extend survival a little longer by not running lsusb (which fairly immediately causes it) but it ultimately hangs and restarts no matter what
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17:57.46mib_ijm4o0test
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18:45.32Stskeepshttp://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/img-1-mq.jpg <- N800 & smartq5 :P
18:46.22RST38hIf they mate, what will you call the offpsring?
18:46.28Stskeepsn805?
18:46.28Stskeeps:P
18:46.32RST38hehhh
18:46.52RST38hthe chinese one does look cool, better than n800
18:47.06Stskeepsthe sd slot is a bitch though
18:47.25Stskeepsi often have to pull the sd out, and clicking it isn't easy
18:47.27RST38hwell, n810 sd slot also isn't fun
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18:52.05Stskeepsbeyond that it's excellent for touch
18:52.57Stskeepsand actually looks better than an iphone, heh
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18:55.44lcukStskeeps, lower dpi then
18:55.50lcuk(v nice tho)
18:55.54Stskeepslcuk: same size screen
18:56.04lcukahh optical illusion
18:56.10RST38hthe screen looks bigger than in n8x0
18:56.15Stskeepsyeah
18:56.17Stskeepsit's perspective
18:56.32lcukit wasnt just that, its size of the bezel
18:57.07RST38hyep
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18:58.32lcukStskeeps, WHERES THE D-PAD?
18:58.52Stskeepslcuk: yeah, exactly
18:58.53lcuksince that is the most common thing ppl scream at new tech
18:58.58Stskeepsthere's 3 buttons on top but no dpad.
18:59.20lcukno camera either by the looks
18:59.26lcukits a digital photo frame :)
18:59.28RST38hwait until you get a chance to ask this question about n9x0
18:59.29lcukwhich is cool
18:59.43StskeepsRST38h: i'm inclined to think fremantle doesn't need a dpad
18:59.46lcukcan see these devices doing very well for what i have in mind
18:59.58Stskeepslcuk: with wifi and bluetooth and usb host/otg/gadget.. and speaker and microphone
19:00.02Stskeeps.. and tv out it seems
19:00.06lcuknice
19:00.27Stskeepsand 2000mAh battery
19:00.33RST38hSts: Fremantle may not but I do
19:00.36Stskeepsthe buttons on top are 770 like
19:00.49RST38hSts: how is battery life on smartq
19:01.44StskeepsRST38h: ran it over 4 hours yesterday but i would like to move away from my rather electrically insecure plug convertor at the moment
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19:04.48StskeepsRST38h: ubuntu lxde isn't exactly power saving
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19:05.20RST38hSts: Still no hildon desktop there?
19:05.29StskeepsRST38h: what, huh? :P
19:05.36RST38hjust asking =)
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19:05.46Stskeepsi got the device about 26 hours ago :P
19:05.49Stskeepsyes, i have hildon desktop
19:05.52Stskeepslook at the pic :)
19:06.01RST38hso why lxde?
19:06.10Stskeepslxde was their own setup
19:06.16Stskeepswhich is what i tested with
19:06.25RST38hah, I am more interested in how it fares under mer
19:06.36RST38hwhich is supposed to be very power saving
19:06.43Stskeepsyeah - i will look forward that too
19:07.25Stskeepsas well as seeing if wifi power saving works
19:08.35johnxlzaurusRST38h, if you want to be a mer developer we might be able to swing you a discount code for the smartq ...
19:10.20Stskeepsfunny fact: it says ccc fcc and ce
19:11.08johnxlzaurusI think in some cases you can pay a company to get all the testing done for you at once
19:11.22Stskeepswell if it's based on a development board, hm :P
19:11.33johnxlzaurusit might not cost that much more to get ce and fcc done at the same time ...
19:11.43RST38hjohnx: I have nothign against another gadget
19:12.01RST38hjohnx: but no time either =(
19:13.26johnxlzauruswell even if you just want to buy one to port emus too, it isnt like they are that expensive
19:13.55johnxlzaurusalso excuse the punctuation as I need to do a bit of work on this keymap it seems
19:14.33RST38hThe review says $132 in China
19:14.44RST38hnot a lot of money indeed
19:15.07RST38h"eBay Fakes Devalue the Craft of Tomb Robbing" <=== hehehe
19:17.23*** join/#maemo radic (n=radic@ip-90-187-28-74.web.vodafone.de)
19:18.17lcukStskeeps, have you been and gloated in the pandora thread yet?
19:19.10Stskeepslcuk: nah
19:19.15Stskeepsno need to make enemies
19:19.36RST38hah, it is more like beating zombies than making enemies
19:19.51Stskeepsgood one :)
19:21.21*** join/#maemo zakkm (n=zak@CPE0013f7b6e1a2-CM0013f7b6e19e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
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19:25.09johnxheh, I think most of the pandora people left that thread long ago :)
19:25.57RST38henjoy: http://latemag.com/district-9-trailer
19:26.14zakkmanyone know why the advanced battery statusbar icon, the battery % only goes up to like 93%?
19:26.34lcukreally, mine goes all the way to 11
19:27.01johnxthey use a different algorithm for determining when the battery is "full" than the Nokia battery applet
19:27.10johnxdifferent batteries charge different amounts
19:27.17zakkmyeah but it stops at 93%, i find that odd ;p
19:27.24*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@213.1.50.153)
19:27.43zakkmcould the battery be replaced with a more long lasting one?
19:27.48locutusyes
19:27.49locutusi have one
19:27.56zakkmhow much
19:27.58zakkmmah ?
19:28.04locutusbut you have to use a different bulging backplate
19:28.07lcuki have mine attached to a big battery, but the lead is a tad short
19:28.10locutusso the n810 becomes less nice to handhold
19:28.13RST38hyes but bigger capacity batteries are bigger
19:28.20locutusso i never use it
19:28.27zakkmnone same size, but more capacity?
19:28.32locutusbecause it wont easilly fit in my trouser pockets then
19:28.32zakkmcondensed
19:28.33lcuklocutus, you got a mugen?
19:28.38locutuslcuk: dunno
19:28.42locutuslcuk: i was given this set as a present
19:28.46lcukcool
19:28.58locutusyeah
19:28.59locutusmugen
19:29.01lcukzakkm, whats wrong with battery life, barring the 93%
19:29.18zakkmi just find it odd being fully charged and it saying its at 93% :P
19:29.20locutuszakkm: it could btw be that your battery just doesnt charge to 100% full anymore
19:29.23locutuszakkm: which can happen with age
19:29.31lcuklocutus, there is a hardware hacker who makes addins which use the extra space that battery holds
19:29.46lcukhes got all sorts of goodies in mind
19:29.53locutuszakkm: mugen 3600mAh yes
19:29.53locutuslcuk: yeah, i have one which adds a full sized SD slot there
19:29.57locutuslcuk: i see no real use for it, as i just use a MicroSD+MiniSD adapter
19:30.11zakkmwould that 3600mah mugen fit perfectly?
19:30.44lcukzakkm, did you not listen - he has a fat extended back cover
19:30.46lcukhttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23205
19:30.48lcukphotos here
19:30.50locutusthat 3600mAh one fits only with a fat cover
19:31.01zakkmoh wow
19:31.12zakkm32gb sdhc ;o
19:31.27lcuki think hes making a kitchensink addon next
19:32.24*** join/#maemo setanta (n=setanta@200.184.118.130)
19:33.37zakkmwhat do 770's go for these days?
19:34.20lcukoriginal retail * 10 i think
19:34.32lcukthey are almost collectables :D
19:34.52zakkmdang
19:35.05lcukebay will tell you - its not expensive i dont think
19:35.11zakkmi was thinking of selling my n800 and buy a 770 ..
19:35.16zakkmand end up with some nice cash ;p
19:35.29lcukbut why would you want a 770?
19:35.35lcukapart from hard cover
19:35.37lcukand cool design
19:35.41lcukand retro chic
19:35.41locutusn770 looks crappy
19:35.43zakkmbetween that or a smartq 5 i think
19:35.57zakkmi dont like the way the n800 looks
19:36.03zakkmand im using it less and less
19:36.08johnxtrading down from an n800 to a 770 would kinda suck
19:36.12lcukwhat are you using instead
19:36.19RST38hsuggests a microVAX for that retro chic feeling
19:36.23zakkmi used to have a 770, bought it on ebay for $85, but then it wsod'd and i got screwed
19:36.28zakkmlike a month later
19:36.32locutusRST38h: why a -micro- VAX?
19:36.38johnxthey're all gonna WSOD one day
19:36.44locutusRST38h: why not go all out and get a VAX780 ? ;-)
19:38.22lcukanyone on twitter?
19:38.33lcukmines lookin empty
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19:49.22*** join/#maemo qgil (n=qgil@a88-112-27-165.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
19:49.34qgilhi there
19:49.49qgilI'm looking for fast feedback about this page: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend
19:50.14qgilhow can it serve better the purpose of bringing more developers to Copenhagen at the end of this month?
19:50.37GeneralAntillesFlash!
19:50.59GeneralAntillesFree hats!
19:51.00lbtagenda ?
19:51.14zakkmfree hats.. damn i should of got invited :D
19:51.32GeneralAntillesSomebody needs to poke Tim about getting the shirts together
19:51.33lbt2 hrs hacking code, lots of free coffee
19:51.42*** join/#maemo greentux_ (n=lemke@88.128.89.211)
19:51.43lbt4 hrs hacking code, lots of free coffee
19:51.55GeneralAntillesqgil, got a nice logo for the event you could stick on the top?
19:51.57qgilGeneralAntilles: like http://www.ounae.com/wp-content/uploads//2008/03/vintage-flash-camera-clock.jpg
19:52.10VDVsxmore promotion, especially at DK University's
19:52.17GeneralAntillesqgil, combined with hypnosis that might work
19:52.23GeneralAntillesbut I was thinking the Adobe sort. :P
19:52.24qgilGeneralAntilles: not hats, but free entrance, lunch and even some beers
19:52.27*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@213.1.50.153)
19:52.29lbtpromise to show off pre-production prototypes....
19:52.29florianre
19:52.49lbtyeah, some "re" too
19:53.08qgillogo for the vent, the Mozilla guys are onto something, yes
19:53.09lbtassumes "re" is Danish coffee
19:53.38lbtseriously - do people know what's actually happening?
19:54.15qgillocal promotion yes, I have failed in my part and the Mozilla office located in the very same campus haven't been that active either. Noted. With urgency.
19:54.36*** join/#maemo Shadow__X (n=Good@RH-LaurelN-CS1-129-67.njit.edu)
19:54.49lbtI'm kinda expecting to talk, see lots of laptops compiling code, new ideas being sketched out on whiteboards...
19:54.58lbtdesign reviews
19:55.03lbtthat kind of thing
19:55.20Stskeepsyeah - facilities would be good, what can we get of equipment, will we be sitting sweating at tables in the big hall or where would we be or something :)
19:55.21qgillbt: believe it or not I'm working hard to get some kind of development boards so people can see their apps in real action - but can't promise at this point
19:55.33Stskeepswhiteboards, HDMI/DVI screens, etc
19:55.39Stskeepsso people can start preparing demos
19:55.40lbtheh - that's a hook to attract attention
19:55.45zakkmwants a free maemo hat :)
19:55.57lbtbut actually saying "talk, lots of laptops compiling code, new ideas being sketched out on whiteboards..."
19:56.18lbtintense/creative design atmosphere
19:56.21Stskeepsor even simple stuff about if there'll be a coffee machine ;p
19:56.26qgilStskeeps & lbt , you mean a schedule (if only a skeleton) where you can visualize what will be there
19:56.40Stskeepsschedule sketch might also help so people can start proposing
19:56.47lbtyes... and I don't know what a "hackfest" really is
19:57.02lbtI don't know whether to do a powerpoint show on OBS
19:57.07lbtor a screencast
19:57.21lbtor just have an example to walk through on a big projector
19:57.25qgillbt: yes, you can
19:57.38qgilok, I'll start working on a skleton right now
19:57.38lbtheh - pick one   eh?
19:58.11lcukdo we need a pre-meeting meeting to arrange some of the specifics
19:58.20qgilalso the Mozilla guys found the "official" hotel and booked 40 double rooms, that would help making things concrete as well  :)
19:58.26lcukqgil, have you heard whether vlads clearance is ok
19:58.41qgilalso, we have sponsored about a bunch of developers, but also nobody knowsn
19:58.44lbtthere will be people who have lots of knowledge... but I assume there will be "walk in" people too?
19:58.55qgiland nobody knows we still have budget to sponsor some more good developers
19:58.56lbtwhat are they doing ?
19:58.57Stskeepsqgil: another idea since much of it is tablet-centered - there's a small bunch of Nokians coming - what areas that they are in might be good for people to know
19:59.10lbtany Qt people?
19:59.17Stskeepssuch as, if there's a hildon expert coming or clutter, that'd be great to know
19:59.29lbtpaff gtk ...
19:59.41lcukqgil, i would like to have a pow-wow with kot and crash and a couple of others - it might have been mentioned
19:59.41qgillcuk, do we really need a meeting (may be), or is it about action in the wiki + mailing list + forum, planet...
19:59.55lcukwas joking
20:00.08lbtad-hoc irc meeting may be an idea
20:00.18qgilStskeeps: the nokians coming basically belong to development platform and browser
20:00.25lcukwe already had ours - i am eager to speak with vlad and sampo
20:00.41qgilsince the rest are tied to their Fremantle desks with a thick iron chain
20:00.46lcukdo you know if hendrik is coming
20:01.08VDVsxVERY important: don't forget the (free) snacks & coffee  :P it's a very important part in this kind of events
20:01.32qgillbt: qt people, that's a good point
20:01.42lbtAntonio is busy :(
20:01.58qgilI expect Kate and Antonio to b there at least, will ask the official post-trolls as well
20:02.34qgilVDVsx: eating and drinking (with moderation) shouldn't b a problem, even for free
20:02.51Stskeepsheh, the cantina at ITU is interesting - you get charged per kg :>
20:02.52lbtIf we can get an idea of who is presenting what and in what style
20:02.57VDVsxqgil, .)
20:02.59lbtthen we can plan around it...
20:03.18qgilok lbt: schedule skeleton coming tonight
20:03.26lbt+ scale...  presentation to 50 people != 5 people around a screen
20:03.50lcuklbt, i learnt how to present to a large audience :)  just do it to one person
20:03.50lbtvolunteers something on OBS (obviously)
20:04.13lcukquim, it was nokia that arranged the projector for the summit (overhead one) can it be there again?
20:04.16lbtlcuk ... style + content differ with scale
20:04.31VDVsxand... please, please record some of the talks :)
20:04.47qgilthere are different spaces: auditorium (150 people) + 1 Mozilla room + 1 maemo.org room + 1 Maemo/Nokia room (40 seats each)
20:04.53lcukVDVsx, that means we should contact jamie and see if hes available
20:05.13qgillcuk projectors are not a problem in the ITU!
20:05.24lcukare star fleet uniforms supplied or do we need to bring our own?
20:05.44lbtyou're ET, not starfleet
20:05.52Stskeepsqgil: ah - and we'd be mostly in the mozilla/maemo/maemo-nokia rooms?
20:05.52lcukyes yes
20:06.08Stskeepsisn't entirely sure how it'd look yet :)
20:06.09VDVsxlcuk, he is in the attending list, I think
20:06.17zakkmhow many people are expected to come?
20:06.21qgilStskeeps: ah no, tactually the default place is the hall, with plenty of tables and chairs to sit and hack
20:06.25lcukgood VDVsx ill send him a mail and make sure
20:06.26Stskeepsqgil: fantastic :)
20:06.38qgilthose rooms are for BOFs, team discussions and other loud activities  :)
20:06.39Stskeepsmisses old demo scene parties
20:06.45zakkmsees stskeeps running around the main room .. MER HAS ___!!!!!!!
20:06.51lcukdo we have a list of current participants
20:07.02qgilThe Maemo/Nokia room could be to offer specific support to SDK users
20:07.08Stskeepszakkm: .. yeah, that pretty much qualifies how insane i am :)
20:07.14lbtspare international power plug adaptors
20:07.29qgillcuk the list of confirmed participants is in the wiki page
20:07.30Stskeepslbt: good point
20:07.47lcukgotcha - was hunting for ages
20:07.56lbtvarious private wifi routers?
20:07.56qgilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend/Participants - forgot that I created a separate page
20:08.13*** join/#maemo brolin (n=brolin@200.24.16.55)
20:08.16zakkmnobody from canada :P
20:08.25Stskeepslbt: i'll take my fonera along, :P
20:08.40lbtspare N800 batteries
20:08.46Stskeepsponders idly how heavy his backpack will be.
20:08.47qgilinternational power plug adapters? I never get them when flying to UK/US  :)
20:09.03lcukStskeeps, its just down the road for you
20:09.06johnxneeds to get a line on a laptop to borrow O_o;
20:09.21Stskeepsjohnx: n800 and bluetooth keyboard, that's all you need
20:09.21Stskeeps:P
20:09.24lbtextra long vga cables
20:09.39zakkmis there seriously going to be free maemo hats?
20:10.03qgilperhaps maemo.org hats if you convince the council  ;)
20:10.03johnxI think better with multiple windows up at once. I guess I can just array the zaurus, wii+tv and n800 out in front of me...
20:10.06lcukoh no Stskeeps that bluetooth keyboard caused liqbase death!
20:10.08lbtzakkm: we're all shaving our heads and having Mer tatoos
20:10.31zakkmi want a maemo.org hat to put up in my room :D
20:10.33*** join/#maemo ElPollo (n=jurgen@ip503d796e.speed.planet.nl)
20:10.35qgilalright, I'll go to edit that wiki page right now
20:10.50qgilthanks for the braindrop!
20:11.00lbtseperate content
20:11.01lcukyw :)
20:11.05lbtfrom practicals
20:12.58lcukive just mailed jamie
20:13.47GeneralAntilleszakkm, Tim should be working on shirts.
20:14.17zakkmif shipping isnt much, and i paid shipping, would someone mail me one? :D
20:14.21lcukqgil, on the participants thing im not starred for sponsorship (*) am i getting there under my own steam or sharing a suitcase with some others?
20:15.17lbtlcuk, I persuaded them to send me first class.... you're swimming.
20:15.27Stskeepsthe 24 hour boat is a blast
20:15.27Stskeeps:P
20:15.42lcukmutters something about bloody vikings ;)
20:17.21*** join/#maemo flavioribeiro (n=avaty@189.71.45.76)
20:18.03lcukStskeeps, how far is it for ou travelling
20:18.26Stskeepslcuk: 3h30m or so
20:18.27qgillcuk you need to apply for sponsorship as said in the web
20:18.39qgilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend/Participants updated
20:18.46qgil45 participants confirmed now
20:21.58GeneralAntilleszakkm, these are likely to be specific to this meetup.
20:22.07GeneralAntilleszakkm, plan is to have a real swag store at some point.
20:22.09*** join/#maemo L0cutus (n=L0cutus@94.160.32.165)
20:22.25radiccan someone agree that the browser is slightly unstable?
20:22.31lcukhmm i am sure i already filled that in once, nm ive applied again
20:22.40lcukradic, yeah internet explorer is a pain in the ass
20:22.43lcukit crashes all the time
20:23.09radiclcuk: i mean that on my n800
20:23.51lcuki dunno it always seemed fine with me - but i dont use it so often
20:24.31*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@213.1.50.153)
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20:47.13qgilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend#Accommodation updated
20:47.23qgilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend/Accommodation created
20:47.38zakkm75eur per night is alott :P
20:47.52qgilless if you share
20:48.05zakkmthat sleep in heaven looks better
20:48.18zakkm17.47 eur, free wifi, locker and such
20:48.19GeneralAntillesPeople just love to have forums for their little pet projects. . . .
20:48.23Stskeepszakkm: in terms of comfort, cabinn is nicer :P
20:48.34zakkmyour barely be there though
20:48.36zakkmexcept sleep
20:48.52*** join/#maemo GAN800 (n=ryan@2416422hfc34.tampabay.res.rr.com)
20:49.05GeneralAntillesIf people would move DOCUMENTATION to the wiki nobody would have to dig around in subforums to find stuff.
20:50.10Stskeepshehe, shared room planning
20:50.20*** join/#maemo mat (n=mat@home.virgule.info)
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20:50.27Stskeepsmarks himself availiable for a roommate :P
20:50.28zakkmi call shared room with STSKEEPS! :D
20:50.33lbtquim... do you snore
20:50.42qgillbt: only at night
20:50.54*** join/#maemo eichi (n=eichi@p5B203798.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
20:51.19Stskeepsah, perfect hotel spot
20:51.20CutMeOwnThroatoh, the MicroB browser is proprietary
20:51.20suihkulokkiwonders if it is a great idea to have the party *before* hacking event :P
20:51.22zakkmi can see it now, everyone in their rooms on their nokia :)
20:51.23Stskeepsright next to metro
20:51.56Stskeepssuihkulokki: i'm pondering to share with a jetlagged USian or something :P
20:51.57GeneralAntillesCutMeOwnThroat, the UI is closed, MicroB is actually the engine, which is Gecko-based and open.
20:52.16GeneralAntillesCutMeOwnThroat, the UI will be open in Fremantle.
20:52.38CutMeOwnThroatFremantle?
20:52.45johnxI think rm_you and I will probably end up sharing a room
20:52.52johnxchanges the wiki
20:52.59zakkmhave you guys ever seen eachother in person before?
20:53.03GeneralAntilles~fremantle
20:53.10johnxzakkm, we went to the same highschool :)
20:53.10Stskeepszakkm: nop
20:53.17Stskeeps(at least i didn't)
20:53.18CutMeOwnThroatgoogle says it's a town :)
20:53.22johnxzakkm, rm_you and I, I mean :)
20:53.24GeneralAntilleshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle
20:53.27lcukshame zach cant make it
20:53.32GeneralAntillesMaemo 5
20:53.41CutMeOwnThroatok
20:53.44*** join/#maemo Free_maN (n=Free_maN@unaffiliated/freeman)
20:53.55zakkmi want a tshirt :(
20:54.22GeneralAntilleszakkm, go triage some bugs. That's how I got mine. ;)
20:54.36zakkmyou got a maemo tshirt?
20:55.32GeneralAntillesYeah, one of the real maemo (lowercase m) ones, too. ;)
20:55.48zakkmlucky
20:56.14qgilStskeeps: do you mind moving the content of http://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend#Mer to an own page, I want to convert those Focus areas in a simple bullet list with links, thanks!
20:56.45Stskeepsqgil: yep - sec
20:57.50CutMeOwnThroatwell, tempting to see how those things do on a x86 desktop... guess I'll run matchbox-window-manager at sometime :)
20:58.37CutMeOwnThroatalthough single-window is probably not so great there
20:58.44*** join/#maemo alehorst1 (n=alehorst@201.47.23.169.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br)
20:59.37crashanddieHi qgil o/
20:59.47Stskeepsqgil: edited, feel free to edit as needed
20:59.48crashanddiehow's it going in crazy Finland?
21:01.26qgilStskeeps: thanks!
21:01.51qgildear lazyweb, wher can I find the list of Maemo projects approved for GSOC?
21:02.08qgilhi crashanddie
21:02.11Stskeepshttp://wiki.maemo.org/GSoC_2009/Projects
21:02.15qgillovely
21:02.36lcuk#maemo :: faster than google
21:02.55GeneralAntilleslcuk, #maemo - usually just a proxy for Google. :P
21:03.21lcukindeed, you even act as the spell checker :D
21:03.51crashanddieno, that's just GA's usual pedantic self
21:04.03mikkov_google answered with thi
21:04.19lcukanyway, more drugs needed, bbl
21:04.21GeneralAntillesWithout pedantic people like me, there'd just be anarchy. :P
21:04.28crashanddielol, how to detect if someone has no idea what so ever who you are: They reply to "hi", but don't answer the "how are you" question :)
21:04.31mikkov_s https://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Random
21:04.43GeneralAntillesDrove past a schoolzone today and a few of the students were wearing masks.
21:04.47GeneralAntillesSwine flu insanity.
21:04.51crashanddiehaha
21:04.55crashanddieyou're going to die
21:05.08crashanddieThat's it, your life's over
21:05.14crashanddieI hope you enjoyed the ride :)
21:05.34GeneralAntillesAs soon as I find out I'm sick I'm flying over there to cough on you.
21:05.45*** join/#maemo ralann (n=ralann@unaffiliated/ralann)
21:05.49crashanddieI have 3 boxes of tamiflu :P
21:05.58crashanddieI take pre-emptive shots just to be sure
21:06.19GeneralAntillesBut it's swine flu!
21:06.28zakkmGeneralAntilles: where in the world you live?
21:06.41CutMeOwnThroategypt
21:06.42GeneralAntilleszakkm, hostmask.
21:08.58GeneralAntilleszakkm, figure it out yet?
21:09.04zakkm?
21:09.09zakkmwhere you live?
21:09.19GeneralAntilles<PROTECTED>
21:09.23zakkmohh
21:09.24crashanddiewho set us up the bomb!
21:09.27zakkmdidnt think of that
21:09.27GeneralAntillesYou're learning something new today. :P
21:09.42zakkmnoo i know host address's its just i didnt think of checking
21:09.49crashanddieaddresses
21:09.52zakkmi just saw your story and thinking where you live
21:09.58zakkmyeahh im tired :D
21:10.03crashanddieplease use the apostrophes in the right places
21:10.11crashanddiedidn't takes one, addresses doesn't ;)
21:10.42radicStskeeps: for what is the browserd required?
21:10.53crashanddieradic, the interwebs :)
21:11.37GeneralAntillesand I'm the pedantic one
21:11.49radiccrashanddie: and what can i do if it crashed?
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21:18.06qgilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend#Spaces created
21:18.24zakkmMain Hall equipped with tables, chairs and power chords
21:18.29zakkmqgil: what are power chords?
21:18.42*** part/#maemo richieeee72 (n=richard@host86-166-119-249.range86-166.btcentralplus.com)
21:18.53Stskeepscords :P
21:19.27Stskeepsheads to bed
21:19.34zakkmwhere developers hang around, chat and hack. (free!)  <--- since when did you pay to hangout, chat or hack ?
21:19.44Stskeepszakkm: linux cafe?
21:19.44Stskeeps:P
21:19.50zakkmyou dont have to buy anything
21:20.43zakkmand thats for food
21:21.52*** join/#maemo radic (n=radic@ip-77-25-205-66.web.vodafone.de)
21:22.04qgilzakkm: actually we are going to place a guy like this one in each table: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MstE-avZp8w
21:23.27zakkmqgil: starting to sound like a fun event
21:24.06*** join/#maemo Firebird (n=Firebird@pool-138-88-250-214.res.east.verizon.net)
21:24.14qgilzakkm: "(free!)" is after the dot - anyway you native English speakers can edit the page at will (and the rest of humans too)
21:24.15*** join/#maemo krutt (n=mk@p4FC3296A.dip.t-dialin.net)
21:24.55zakkmenglish isnt your first language? cool
21:25.31qgilzakkm: there are two languages in the row before English for m
21:25.33qgile
21:25.53zakkmqgil: thats awesome, i can only speak english
21:26.08zakkmwhich sucks cause i want to go into real estate, and i realize that fact will hurt
21:26.29luke-jrqgil: ö hi!
21:26.41johnxzakkm, eh, plenty of time to learn other languages. You can pick them up quick with a little immersion to help you
21:27.14qgilfor instance PERL, mind you
21:27.30zakkmmeant speaking languages :P
21:27.46luke-jr♡ Perl
21:27.49zakkmjohnx: i suppose so, takes a long time to learn a language though
21:28.20qgilzakkm: for some it takes only a (good) girl/boy/friend
21:28.23zakkmis so glad he failed programming in school :P
21:28.43qgilin my case, a job definitely helps
21:28.52johnxqgil, yup. there are other strategies too, like getting yourself moved to some other part of the world :)
21:29.05zakkma friend of mine is korean , and he said he would help me if i were to try and learn it, im stupid cause i should of took  a language in my highskool / learn from people gradually
21:29.14zakkmunable to do that though ;p
21:29.16zakkmmove
21:29.34crashanddieI want to move to sweden to learn the language
21:29.36*** join/#maemo sampppa (n=samppa@85.23.21.111)
21:29.37zakkmhow would a job help? with speaking language?
21:29.41crashanddie(at least, that's what I tell my gf)
21:29.53zakkmhah
21:29.55johnxzakkm, if everyone at your job speaks a different language, you'll learn it or get fired :D
21:30.05crashanddiejohnx, not true
21:30.11zakkmcant pick up the language that quickly :D
21:30.16johnxconstant motivation is the hardest part of learning a language
21:30.23johnxzakkm, have you ever tried?
21:30.39johnxyou never know what you can do until you're *really* motivated :)
21:30.41zakkmhaving a job where everyone speaks a different language, no
21:30.52zakkmim still at my first few jobs stage ;p
21:30.53crashanddiejohnx, I've worked in countries that were non-english, but the work language was english, can assure you my ass was never on the line ;)
21:31.02qgilthere is plenty of Spanish people going to London to learn English, getting a job in a kitchen and ending up learning... all kinds of languages from other non-English spakers in the same kitchen
21:31.14zakkmthats cool
21:31.24johnxspanish <-> english isn't too bad
21:31.28zakkmi live in Toronto, canada by the way, for the purpose of this chat
21:31.38crashanddieqgil, problem with "non-qualified workers" is that most of the time they end up staying within their own community, and it gets pretty hard to learn the actual language, considering they never speak it
21:31.41johnxenglish <-> $asian_language is generally hard
21:31.55zakkmwhole new language system
21:31.56lcukjohnx, i spoke with omweather author for just 2 days, it was his first ever time speaking in english, obviously things were hard but i was astounded by how much we managed to convey in that time
21:32.03crashanddieqgil, if you are an educated worker, you'll have bases that will allow you to communicate on a primary level, learning from there is a lot easier
21:32.08lcuk(hes russian)
21:32.23qgilcrashanddie: this is why I forced myself to share flat with brits when moving to London
21:32.30zakkmlondon is awesome :D
21:32.42zakkmi was there for like 3 days few years ago
21:32.56johnxlcuk, yup. I still maintain that knowing "how to communicate" is a skill that's independent of language
21:32.59zakkmyou guys move around alot eh?
21:33.04zakkmdoesnt that hurt financially?
21:33.21qgilzakkm: in my case staying where I was would have hurt probably more
21:33.21crashanddieqgil, if I go to Nokia, and yell Hyvä iltaa! at 9AM, only if we have a common language will you be able to tell me "that's for evenings dude" and will I learn
21:33.37lcukagreed johnx, at first it took hand waving and going slowly, but we found the common ground and adapted to each other
21:33.39qgilSpain is beating records on unemployment as we speak...
21:33.57zakkmqgil: you from spain?
21:34.00qgilNokia is not the best place to learn Finnish in Finland, really
21:34.12crashanddie"Quim Gil" now there's a spanish name
21:34.22zakkmi once knew a guy in Finland :(
21:34.32zakkmwent to serve in the army, never heard from him again
21:34.33qgilQuim is a Catalan name, to be precise.  :)
21:34.46timeless_mbpNokia is about the worst place to learn anything in Finland :)
21:34.55crashanddieoh right, you're catalan, right, forgot about that
21:35.10zakkmnokia is centered in finland?
21:35.18crashanddiezakkm, get back in your cave
21:35.23zakkmyes sir
21:35.24qgil(time to go back to editing the wiki page)
21:35.25timeless_mbpnah, it's centered in Japan ;-)
21:35.46GeneralAntillesRight geographic oddity right there.
21:35.58zakkmwikipedia says Finland :D
21:36.10GeneralAntillesYou trust wikipedia? ;)
21:36.38zakkmsadly
21:36.42zakkmits a problem of my youth
21:37.20zakkmits jsut so good
21:39.46qgilactually Nokia is not centered in Finland but in Espoo
21:40.58jaskaespoo is where the barriers between dimensions are thin
21:40.58jaskaand the monsters leak thru
21:41.11*** join/#maemo alextreem (n=alex@82.171.161.1)
21:42.32qgilfeels some boredom starting a table for a schedule in a wiki (or plain HTML actually)
21:43.10GeneralAntillesDon't talk to me about wiki boredom. :P
21:44.25GeneralAntillesI need to get X-Fade to fix the amboxes. . . .
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21:49.06VDVsxqgil, btw, the amsterdam venues that you saw are fine enough for the summit ?
21:50.27qgilyes, both the WesterGas and the Felix Meritis make merits for a good Summit
21:50.41qgilthe problem is now on Nokia's plate, really
21:50.57qgilI will report more deeply, but since you ask
21:51.34qgilthe thing is that we are looking at the calendar and roadmap seeing what to announce when
21:51.46johnx:D
21:52.18qgiland it could be that 11-13 is not an ideal date actually
21:52.32qgilmaybe after OSiM would be better
21:52.41qgilor even in mid october..............
21:52.54qgilso we need to decide some things internally about dates and announcements
21:53.11qgiland then talk to you about when would be better for the summit
21:53.12GAN800Now that sounds bad. :/
21:54.05qgilmid october could mean to start talking about Harmattan...
21:54.07zakkmyo
21:54.12zakkmany of you guys want a free domain?
21:54.30VDVsxstart crying, mid October = thesis presentation :(
21:54.42zakkmmid october, so far away :D
21:54.43qgildon't panic
21:54.48VDVsxehhehe
21:55.04qgilthe plan is still 11-13 and we would have good content and venue for that
21:55.22VDVsxat least will be at a weekend I assume :P
21:55.33qgilbut there might be a possibility to have something more/better just 1-4 weeks later, and it's worth considering
21:56.32qgilremember that we took th 11-13 sep just because of OSiM world, now we have more elements to think about
21:57.58qgilthe 1-4 extra weeks might help more people arranging some travel plans based on stuff announced before
21:58.18*** join/#maemo brolin (n=brolin@static-adsl201-232-76-133.epm.net.co)
21:59.36qgilwhat to do? one option is to have a progression from the previous summit, having a similar audience + some more people and have something basically around Maemo 5
21:59.37qgilor
22:00.10qgilanother option is to give a bit more time for more stuff, get a wider audience and have more Harmattan flesh in place
22:00.33qgilany many other possibilities in between of course
22:01.44VDVsxmake sense, if you guys plan to announce maemo related stuff at OSIM, but IMO I think maemo 5 should take a lot of attention, not need to wait for harmattan
22:01.58GAN800Be nice to get a meetup outside of Europe
22:02.14zakkmjust got 2 year unlimited hosting from dreamhost and is willing to give ppl ftp access to upload maemo/mer/whatever related files
22:02.49qgilVDVsx: remember that the prvious Maemo Summit was a good place to start sharing the "Fremantle vision"
22:03.13qgilby September/October Fremantle should be all set when it comes to vision
22:03.23VDVsxI hope so, lol
22:04.20qgilGAN800: outside of Europe meaning USA?
22:04.28zakkmthinks there will be a n900 prototype at the next maemo summit/danishweekend
22:04.46zakkmyeahhh Toronto, canada would be nice! :P
22:04.52GAN800qgil, eventually, but I'm sure people elsewhere would also appreciate having something there.
22:05.41qgilGAN800: and us too, but we need more momentum and critical mass in the land of iPhone and Android, I think
22:06.42zakkmi dont know about there, but everyone here i know mostly has a ipod touch/iphone
22:07.06GAN800Android is all hype. Nobody actually owns Android devices.
22:07.11GAN800Here, anyway.
22:07.27zakkmnever seen anything android in person ever and lives in a huge city.
22:07.32qgilspecially in the US, hype is half of your product  ;)
22:07.39GeneralAntillesI've seen a G1 once.
22:07.44GeneralAntillesSee tons of iPhones, though.
22:07.54johnxGAN800, saw a fair number at LFNW, but saw just about as many freerunners ;)
22:08.23zakkmalso you guys are tech people, your have a higher chance of seeing such gadgets
22:08.52GeneralAntillesjohnx, yeah, bad sample. :P
22:08.57GeneralAntillesEast coast, too.
22:09.22GeneralAntillesEr, I'm East, you're West.
22:09.36*** join/#maemo Shadow__X (n=Good@RH-LaurelN-CS1-129-67.njit.edu)
22:10.04VDVsxqgil, don't knowing the maemo roadmap at deep, I think it will all depends when fremantle will be released, i.e if freematle is out in June/July, I agreed with you (we should wait for harmattan), if the fremantle device only hit the shelf's in August/Sept, I think it will worth keep the current dates, because fremantle will still fresh at this time
22:10.25*** join/#maemo ustunozgur (n=ustun@pcozgur.ee.bilkent.edu.tr)
22:10.32johnxGeneralAntilles, thanks for clearning that up :)
22:13.47GuySofthey, about the maemo microphone - how come it can only record khz? what chip is on there?
22:14.00zakkmanyone have a old geocities account?
22:14.25johnxzakkm, are they owned by yahoo now? I think I had one at one point...
22:14.32zakkmthey always were
22:14.53zakkmthey shut it down like last week, and dreamhost is offering 2 yr free domain + unlimited web hosting to all old geocities members
22:14.54johnxyeah, think I have one, but I don't know the password ...
22:14.55qgilVDVsx: too many variables at the moment and I can't discuss here most of them, sorry  :(
22:15.07johnxzakkm, !!
22:15.16zakkm"$214 value"
22:15.22qgilas said 11-13 is still the plan and this is why yesterday (actually now 2 days ago) I went to Amsterdam to look for venues with Kees and Nils
22:15.25qgilNiels
22:15.48zakkmyou have to change a page to add some string, and then use it as a promocode when register for dreamhost, and it brings it to $0
22:15.49VDVsxqgil, I know, just expressing my side/opinion :)
22:16.56GAN800johnx, confusing, right? ;)
22:17.26johnxyeah, if you weren't here to remind me where I am I'd probably get confused and end up in Japan or something
22:17.46GAN800Ehehe
22:17.56GAN800is addled again today
22:18.27qgil20 minutes for prsentations/demos? not lightning - not extended - not taking too much time from your work
22:19.10zakkmwow, alot of work has been put into this event
22:19.16qgilVDVsx: even knowing all the internal info is not clear to have a side/opion  :)
22:19.17VDVsxGAN800, for me, is pacific coast and Atlantic coast :P easier
22:19.19GAN800I'd love to see Fremantle come with a spellcheck framework.
22:19.38qgilthis is why I'm concentrating on Copenhagen now because there is no 3 without 1 and 2 (Desktop Summit)
22:19.47johnxGAN800, gtk already has one
22:20.10GAN800VDVsx, 'Atlantic coast represent!' doesn't work so well. :P
22:20.12zakkmwould love to see fremantle ui/theme work on n800
22:20.20*** join/#maemo joelmaher (n=joelmahe@67.205.203.107)
22:20.30lcukqgil, 20 mins! longer than last time :)
22:20.31VDVsxGAN800, lol
22:20.35GAN800johnx, the I'd like to see Fremantle come with a dictionary or somethimg.
22:20.47lcukstarts writing now :P
22:21.00johnxGAN800, not sure if it's just a compile time option, or something that happened in a later gtk, or what
22:21.04qgillcuk: mmm nw you make think of 15
22:21.07GAN800s/the/then/ s/img/ing/
22:21.42lcukheh - you have made me nervous already!
22:22.04VDVsx15 min + 5 min for Q&A sounds fine
22:22.12GAN800lcuk's talk is 1 hour and nobody's allowed to laugh. :P
22:22.19lcukheh
22:22.24zakkmthinks 5min wont be enough for Q&A
22:22.37lcukbtw, on a related topic - is there a SIMPLE dictation program for n8x0 - i have one on my phone which "just works" but i want one for nokia
22:22.42lcukwe could never get mic working
22:22.50GAN800White Stork
22:22.50*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@213.1.50.153)
22:23.08lcukpractices his Northern
22:24.02GAN800Quim, you have a red phone to Ville re #3602?
22:25.32qgilGAN800: I think this one will get sorted out
22:26.09GAN800Alternatively I think we should get andre__ a stick to beat people with.
22:26.17qgilGAN800: Ville probably doesn't have a confirmed answer yet but Fremantle is integrated in a way much more modular and customizable, so it could be done
22:26.30GAN800should look at the bugzilla report cards again.
22:26.58qgilI agre Ville could report more statuses even if the thing is not decided yet
22:27.32GAN800Shouting into the dark is tiresome and wasteful of everybody's time and bandwidth.
22:27.49qgilhow much time for Mer in the auditorium? 15 or more?
22:27.57*** join/#maemo greentux_ (n=lemke@ip-90-186-33-22.web.vodafone.de)
22:28.12qgilGAN800: this darkness takes me also plenty of time so yes, I agree
22:28.15lcuksay 15 for now quim, then like last time we can adjust as required
22:28.32lcuki think time was halved as additional ones came onboard
22:28.43lcukbut at least you have a baseline
22:29.27*** join/#maemo fireun (n=tako@72-160-105-9.dyn.centurytel.net)
22:29.34qgillcuk: but hre is different: we don't have a schedule to fill since those activities are complementary to the main purpose of meeting and work on your own projects and surroundings
22:29.58lcukgood point
22:30.47zakkmanyone willing to give me a google voice invite? :D
22:31.46fireunyou're invited (;
22:31.58zakkmlol
22:32.05zakkmi heard you can do invites, like gmail does
22:32.11zakkmi want to try it on tablet :P
22:32.29fireungood luck finding someone who uses it
22:32.38zakkmnobody uses?
22:32.48GAN800I haven't seen any invites
22:33.04fireunskype has the only people I know who use voip
22:33.54GAN800Voicemail transcription is fairly epic.
22:34.12zakkmskype on iphone i think changes alot :P
22:34.15*** join/#maemo ustunozgur (n=ustun@pcozgur.ee.bilkent.edu.tr)
22:35.14johnxI think they closed off invites for right now. I expect them to do more with it later though
22:36.07lcukim vanishing anyway \o gnite qgil, gan vdv johnx etc
22:36.15johnx'night lcuk :)
22:36.26zakkmnight lcuk
22:38.45*** join/#maemo ustunozgur (n=ustun@pcozgur.ee.bilkent.edu.tr)
22:41.02VDVsxgnite lcuk
22:43.11qgilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend#Schedule
22:43.40qgilso hopefully the page is much better now based on your feedback some hours ago
22:44.01*** part/#maemo FilipLinux4BE (n=filip@77.109.122.141)
22:44.14qgilif someone could add some captions of the pictures of the venue available, that would be great
22:44.28qgilI'm falling asleep right nowwwwwwwww
22:44.43GAN800Later
22:45.11VDVsxqgil, isn't possible to stay at night in the 'hacking hall' ?
22:45.30qgilVDVsx: er... I don't think so
22:45.35GAN800lol
22:45.56GAN800So no leaving drunk hackers lying around. ;)
22:46.35qgilbut I see your point and actually there is a students lounge/bar nearby that is open during the night (don't know exact timing)
22:46.55qgiland I wouldn 't be surprised if they would be under the campus wifi cloud
22:47.01qgilI'll ask, good point
22:47.01VDVsxnormally those partys are 24hours of programming (or more for some strong guys :P)
22:47.28*** join/#maemo flatface (n=flatface@chaoticevil.ca)
22:47.49qgilyes yes, we need to think something - agred
22:48.13*** part/#maemo mat (n=mat@igoan/mat)
22:48.21qgilnot for the 24h but at least something between 18:00-23:59
22:49.01GAN800Sounds to me like VDVsx is volunteering to have everybody convene in his room. :P
22:49.05*** join/#maemo Ciroip (n=Ciro@adsl-ull-33-42.51-151.net24.it)
22:49.36qgilcombination of night public transport is something to look at
22:49.59VDVsxGAN800, I will not attend :P
22:50.10qgilwe don't want hackers without money to pay a taxi realzing while compiling that it's 2am and there is no easy way to go back to the hotel
22:51.55lcukqgil, check with the hotel its bar opening times and laptop allowances ;)
22:51.55VDVsxqgil, yup, It should be a problem, I went to some hacking partys and normally we stay in the building until morning (of course older people leave earlier)
22:52.29VDVsxqgil, taxi at DK should be not very cheap
22:53.16lcukor else im sure theres some all nite cafes
22:53.20VDVsxand friends payed 30 € in amsterdam for a taxi ride :P
22:54.41CutMeOwnThroathits qgil with a tranquilizer arrow on exit
22:59.20*** join/#maemo brolin_ (n=brolin@static-adsl201-232-76-133.epm.net.co)
23:01.24zakkmdoesnt anyone take public transit down there?
23:02.53*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@213.1.50.153)
23:04.22VDVsxgnite folks :)
23:05.51johnxnight VDVsx
23:09.26*** join/#maemo leandroal (n=leandro@200.223.178.254)
23:10.16*** join/#maemo penguinbait (n=snoopy@c-68-62-90-22.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
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23:10.38penguinbaitlcuk :)
23:10.46penguinbaithows it goin
23:11.27lcukpainfully thanks
23:11.55penguinbaithhehe, you seemed lonely from your post, so I thouhgt I would say hello
23:12.05penguinbaitwooo hooo
23:12.10lcukheh its been bustling tonight
23:12.11penguinbaitit is quiet in here
23:12.15lcuk<PROTECTED>
23:12.24lcuki almost added a footnote
23:12.55lcukur on a bit of a crusade at the moment anyway
23:13.01lcuksudden burst of energy :P
23:13.04penguinbaitwhich one
23:13.17penguinbaitlull at work :)
23:13.39lcukall places, ahhh
23:14.10lcukyou got the fremantle sdk running?
23:14.24penguinbaitno, I am waiting for hardware
23:14.34lcukwhy dont you try qoles trick :)
23:14.36lcukits dead simple
23:14.45penguinbaitwhats that?
23:14.46lcukjust start the sdk up and put a vnc server on it
23:14.52lcukthen use the vnc client on your tablet
23:15.07penguinbaithmmm
23:15.14lcukyou can get the "feel" of it and see how your apps will look and stuff
23:15.23lcukits not perfect, but its better than pretending its a touchscreen
23:15.28penguinbaithehe
23:16.07penguinbaitI have never run anything graphically from the SDK
23:16.31penguinbaitI compiled 100+ apps then tarball to tablet
23:16.32penguinbaithehe
23:16.36lcukthe first time i experienced it was when qwerty12 shared it from his vnc
23:16.40*** join/#maemo brolin (n=brolin@static-adsl201-232-76-133.epm.net.co)
23:16.45lcukmy home linux machine wont make it
23:16.52lcukwont work with it ^
23:17.15penguinbaitwith the VNC, or the SDK ?
23:17.17lcuki do all my compilation on tablet too :) gcc runs nicely
23:17.30lcukthe sdk on my laptop runs at about 5sec / frame
23:17.43penguinbaitIts handy for small stuff, It should be much better on the next hardware
23:17.56lcukyeah im hoping so
23:18.04penguinbaitme too
23:18.05lcukive got an idea about distribution
23:18.11lcukand workflow
23:18.30lcukchop out scratchbox for all but the biggest stuff for those willing to try :)
23:18.56johnx*cough*mer*cough*
23:19.23lcuk:) johnx its also gotta work on the default install
23:19.43lcukbut yes 100% agree, mer allows MUCH more
23:19.48johnxthat's Nokia's choice if they want to pick up using the openSuse builder as well
23:20.03johnxThat came along at exactly the right moment for us
23:20.19penguinbaitare any major changes expected when the SDK comes out of beta? or is it all just bugs fixes left?
23:20.26lcukyeah you lot seem to have been getting teeth into it nicely
23:20.33johnxthough if Nokia keeps ash+busybox I doubt building deb packages on the tablet will be very fun in Maemo
23:20.37lcuki dunno pb
23:20.53luke-jrI've decided I'm not buying the next tablet until I know for certain it is 100% open
23:21.04johnxok luke-jr. no one is forcing you
23:21.09lcukas johnx says mer is already shape using those, so momentum says the longer they leave it the less chance
23:21.25penguinbaitI bought 770, 800, 810, and I will buy a whatever the hell it will be called
23:21.35lcukluke-jr, so you dont want flash or skype or maps?
23:21.41luke-jrlcuk: no
23:21.46lcukfair enough :)
23:21.51luke-jrlcuk: you'd need to bribe me to use them
23:21.58luke-jrand I don't mean the software that is included
23:21.59lcukno i wouldnt
23:22.03luke-jrI couldn't care less what that is
23:22.03johnxlcuk, it only became feasible for us very recently I think, and Nokia had already decided on scratchbox for fremantle long before that
23:22.12luke-jrjust as long as I can install my own stuff that is Free only
23:22.13lcukyeah
23:22.17johnxthey have a choice for hermatten though
23:22.21*** join/#maemo soap (n=soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
23:23.03luke-jrlcuk: my Zaurus which I haven't touched for over a year has a newer kernel than the N810 ;p
23:23.17johnxluke-jr, because people spent a lot of time reverse engineering it
23:23.20*** part/#maemo soap (n=soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
23:23.23lcukin practical terms though, what does that gain?
23:23.47johnxlcuk, continued userland upgrades in the long term. better performance in the short term
23:23.58johnxit is an issue that will need to be addressed eventually
23:24.02luke-jrjohnx: my point wasn't that Sharp is better than Nokia, it's not
23:24.38johnxluke-jr, I agree that we need a new kernel on the n8x0 hardware. We just need to dig up a kernel hacker and get them hooked :>
23:24.53johnxthe situation looks better for the omap3 though
23:25.01luke-jrlcuk: in practical terms, my GPS takes over 30 minutes to first fix AFTER I've spent HOURS hacking at it because Nokia/TI refuses to give protocol info
23:25.30luke-jrI think we need a fair use law that protocol specs need to be licensed automatically if buy hardware using it
23:25.38jaskayeah
23:25.51lcukluke-jr, thats not the same thing as having a newer kernel - i AGREE if it was open and someone with experience in the chipset can help it would be fixed
23:25.55lcukbut it requires both elements
23:26.06luke-jrthis "you can buy the GPS, but you need to spend weeks reverse engineering if you want to use it" is BS
23:26.40lcuki didnt reverse engineer anything?
23:26.46lcuktodd happily directs tracy around
23:26.52johnxluke-jr, the GPLv3 should help as it further "infects" more parts of the GNU/Linux userland ;)
23:26.53lcuktraffic circles and everything
23:27.14penguinbaitMy gps works fine, and my bt gps works even better
23:27.39AStormGPS receivers are actually standarized
23:27.43AStormNMEA ftw
23:27.57AStormboth BT and RS-232 ones
23:29.19luke-jrlcuk: you're using Nokia software; what if you want to use the GPS itself?
23:29.32luke-jrAStorm: the GPS5300 inside N810 is non-standard
23:29.48AStormGAH!
23:29.49AStormkill...
23:29.51lcuk? luke-jr we do use the gps?
23:30.02AStormI suspect it is standard
23:30.10AStormbut connected to some weird bus, like SPI
23:30.12penguinbaitI am a maemo-mapper advocate myself
23:30.26AStormbtw, the gpsdriver makes it look like a BT GPS
23:30.29lcuki can barely talk ive got my own map here lol
23:30.50lcukwas banned from google maps whilst playing
23:30.57AStormhaha
23:31.07AStormOpenStreet then?
23:31.10luke-jrAStorm: it's on a serial port UART
23:31.10penguinbaitdo they still offer the fre API?
23:31.24luke-jrlcuk: by using the GPS, I mean talking directly to the hardware
23:31.24AStormluke-jr, so it *has* to be standard
23:31.28luke-jrAStorm: nope
23:31.38luke-jrAStorm: proprietary gpsdriver blob converts it to NMEA in userspace
23:31.40AStormotherwise it's not a GPS, but some GPS-like whizbang
23:31.44AStormYUCK.
23:31.46lcukluke-jr, i thought all gps stuff was serial?
23:31.48penguinbaitI used to be signed up through google and they allow you to create maps from them
23:31.55luke-jrAStorm: gpsd dev suspects it is a specially designed dsp ;)
23:31.55lcukie nothing has direct access to the hardware
23:31.59AStormwhat idiot thought it's a good idea?
23:32.10luke-jrAStorm: TI
23:32.11*** join/#maemo xnt_ (n=xnt@pool-96-232-136-40.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
23:32.15AStormah, you say it's another ARM7?
23:32.21AStormnifty reuse
23:32.25johnxprobably decided they could save some money
23:32.32AStormstill, the antenna is junk
23:32.34luke-jrto make it worse, the blob depends on GNOME libs and requires a user named "user"
23:32.36AStormand the algorithm is junk too
23:32.40johnxthat's how these things start
23:32.42penguinbaithttp://code.google.com/apis/maps/
23:32.49lcukyeah pb
23:32.54AStormbut, if it is ARM...
23:33.03luke-jrand Nokia refuses to modify/abstract the protocol even
23:33.03lcukif i was gonna go further than an hour of curiosity i would do
23:33.04AStormand we find out how to access the darned antenna
23:33.05luke-jrbbiab
23:33.13lcukbut its just something else i wanted to test
23:33.15penguinbaitheh
23:33.16AStormthen we can make it suck much less
23:33.26AStormTI NDAs suck
23:33.34AStorma lot.
23:33.43lcuksenses automatic internet download and displaying is gonna be important
23:34.06AStormluke-jr, what protocol?
23:34.12AStormI suspect the gpsdriver is the gps.
23:34.28AStormjust a few added opcodes to some generic ARM7
23:34.31AStormjust like the DSP
23:34.46AStormor possibly like IVA2
23:34.55AStormin OMAP3
23:35.08*** join/#maemo b0unc3 (n=b0unc3@host-84-222-227-163.cust-adsl.tiscali.it)
23:35.52*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:36.23luke-jrAStorm: GPS5300 proprietary protocol
23:36.33AStorm"protocol"
23:36.42lcukif i just reupload my avatar does it get scaled yet
23:36.42luke-jrAStorm: what gpsdriver talks over the serial port
23:36.45lcukim sick of peeking
23:36.45AStormmore like ARM7 instructions?
23:37.02luke-jrAStorm: more like ttyS0 communications
23:37.08AStormah, you mean the bunch of data they're sending
23:37.12luke-jrAStorm: I haven't disassembled yet, but I see no reason it'd use instructions
23:37.16AStormI'm talking what the gps actually is
23:37.32AStormI think the actual GPS is just a tiny app connected to the antenna
23:37.33*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:37.47*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@213.1.50.153)
23:37.51AStormsomething extremely easy
23:38.26AStormthen the real algorithms are in userspace
23:38.37*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:39.00AStormand that the actual GPS "propietary" protocol is implemented on another ARM subunit
23:39.30*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:39.46AStorma bunch of microcode, maybe
23:40.09AStormnow, getting at that w/o the docs might be close to impossible
23:42.33AStorm"High performance: The GPS5300 NaviLink 4.0 solution enables a rapid time to first fix (TTFF) from weak satellite signals, exceeding the GPS requirements for 3GPP and 3GPP2 operation."
23:42.35AStormha,ha,ha
23:43.12AStormyes, it is a simple software radio specialized for GPS
23:43.14*** join/#maemo Shadow__X (n=Good@RH-LaurelN-CS1-129-67.njit.edu)
23:43.31lcuk* NB requires a 12 foot antenna
23:44.03johnxheh. I thought you were laughing about the "rapid time to first fix" :)
23:44.22AStormI was, and the other point too
23:44.26AStormit is a dumb antenna
23:44.51AStormso we could actually code better noise/echo rejection algorithm for it
23:45.03lcuki wonder if using it in the car actually boosts the signal if placed correctly in the window
23:45.19johnxwell, what did you expect them to say "The GPS5300 NaviLink 4.0 solution enables a painfully slow time to first fix, leaving your users frustrated and confused."?
23:45.42*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:47.06AStormfunny there's no actual docs about it
23:47.14jaskawell, thatd be truth in advertising :)
23:47.14AStormpropietary protocols of uselessness
23:47.57*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:47.57AStormit's not *that* bad I suspect, but n810 antenna is suboptimal
23:48.10AStormand the software algorithms are... poor
23:48.31AStormto cut costs most of the "analog" path is actually digital components, increasing quantization noise
23:49.03AStorm"DRP: decreasing power usage at the cost of noise floor"
23:50.29luke-jrAStorm: to be fair, when A-GPS is working, gpsdriver got me a fix quite fast
23:50.57AStormthat's 5s in good conditions
23:51.05luke-jrno
23:51.11luke-jr5 sec max TTFF is impossible
23:51.12AStormwhich is quite slow :)
23:51.18AStormthat's not max
23:51.19AStormthat min
23:51.23luke-jrok
23:51.32AStormmax is infinity
23:51.36luke-jr…
23:51.40luke-jrmax is 30s in ideal conditiosn
23:51.56AStormin building obscured clean weather conditions, I got like 30-45s
23:52.18AStormwhich is not good, considering that fairly slow SIRF3 could go in 3s
23:52.25AStormw/o AGPS
23:52.44luke-jr3s is impossible w/o AGPS…
23:52.46AStorm(MTK was instantaneous, btw)
23:52.59AStormit is, because it caches last fix data
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23:53.04luke-jrthat's AGPS
23:53.06AStormthat's not exactly AGPS
23:53.16AStormclose enough
23:53.21AStormAGPS gives fresh ephemeris
23:53.30luke-jrthat last fix data is very useful
23:53.31AStormthis thing extrapolates from old ephemeris
23:53.34AStormyes, it is :)
23:53.35luke-jroh!
23:53.37luke-jrinteresting
23:53.45luke-jrgot code for that? ;)
23:53.54AStormno, sorry, it's hardware!
23:53.54*** join/#maemo dforsyth (n=dforsyth@cripple.student.umd.edu)
23:53.56AStorm:)
23:54.02luke-jrAStorm: hardware can't do that
23:54.10AStormsure it can
23:54.26luke-jrfirmware is not hardware
23:54.35AStormwhatever you say
23:54.45AStormit is a DSP
23:55.07*** join/#maemo leandroal (n=leandro@200.223.178.254)
23:55.14AStormok, so it actually can "extend" ephemeris data to about 20h
23:55.31*** join/#maemo fnordianslipeee (n=darren@78.33.82.89)
23:55.38AStormI got tricked
23:55.43AStormit wasn't a fresh fix then
23:55.47AStormit was a "guess fix"
23:56.11AStorm(but AGPS is not a first fix either, really, heh)
23:57.11AStorman actual first fix *inside a building* took 35s
23:57.30AStormnow, n810's can't do that
23:57.33luke-jrI get better fixes inside a building
23:57.35luke-jrmine can
23:57.40luke-jrdepends on the building, of course
23:57.52AStormyes, that was good old brick
23:57.57AStormwith thick walls
23:58.04AStormsome meters from windows
23:58.14AStormI wonder how it resolved all the echos to get a 2D fix
23:59.11AStormanyway
23:59.17AStormthe TI chip is junk
23:59.24Macerhm
23:59.31Macerthis toshiba laptop i got goes slow as shit :)
23:59.33Macercompared to the macbook
23:59.34AStormit's not even that power-efficient
23:59.57johnxit's their low end chip. if they made it not crappy no one would buy a better one

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