| 00:01.06 | *** join/#maemo bef0rd (n=befr0d@190.68.9.200) |
| 00:02.41 | *** join/#maemo AStorm (n=astralst@unaffiliated/astralstorm) |
| 00:06.08 | lardman | night! |
| 00:08.17 | *** join/#maemo lcuk2 (i=lcuk@cpc1-oldh7-0-0-cust232.manc.cable.ntl.com) |
| 00:12.43 | *** join/#maemo esperegu (n=esperegu@145.116.15.244) |
| 00:13.15 | AStorm | yeah |
| 00:13.19 | AStorm | new maemo-tools ncurses have color :D |
| 00:13.27 | AStorm | finally, more syntax highlighting in vom |
| 00:13.31 | AStorm | *vim |
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| 00:17.02 | AStorm | and touchscreen support improved, what a nice bonus |
| 00:18.56 | r2d2rogers | AStorm: that maemo 5 or diablo? |
| 00:19.08 | AStorm | diablo |
| 00:19.26 | r2d2rogers | I just got Mer partially booting on my 770 |
| 00:19.42 | AStorm | mer != maemo 5 |
| 00:19.47 | r2d2rogers | right |
| 00:19.57 | r2d2rogers | just giving you a where i'm at reference |
| 00:20.04 | AStorm | anyway, back to coding |
| 00:20.13 | AStorm | mer has that correct probably |
| 00:20.26 | r2d2rogers | ... Cool |
| 00:20.34 | r2d2rogers | that will be great |
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| 00:20.43 | AStorm | as it has separate ncurses |
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| 00:26.36 | lcuk2 | AStorm, what do you code? |
| 00:26.56 | lcuk2 | i dont think ive ever seen one of your projects (though i probably have if you know what i mean) |
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| 00:32.13 | woglinde | good nite |
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| 00:44.26 | AStorm | lcuk2, now, writing a handwriting recognizer |
| 00:44.31 | AStorm | yes, that one |
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| 00:44.59 | AStorm | no git tree as of yet due to too many major changes for history to be of any use |
| 00:45.19 | AStorm | that's the actual reason why I'm not experimenting with mer |
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| 00:57.59 | lcuk2 | astorm the proper system one? |
| 00:58.31 | AStorm | yes, in a later perspective |
| 00:58.43 | AStorm | right now I'm getting the engine done |
| 00:58.50 | lcuk2 | and im impressed :) i have the core recognition functions for my attempt inside liqbase - i know ive gone the wrong way with mine though |
| 00:59.05 | AStorm | and not infringing any patents (khem M$) |
| 00:59.18 | lcuk2 | i once made one in vb which was much friendlier |
| 00:59.18 | AStorm | lcuk2, which way? heuristics? |
| 01:00.19 | AStorm | mine abuses statistical methods + some denoising |
| 01:00.43 | lcuk2 | the current stroke class has a method to extract its quadchain. i normalise the stroke and overlay a 5x5 grid over the top. each position on the grid passed over as the stroke commences results in a string |
| 01:00.46 | AStorm | because stupid M$ got a patent on neural nets for that :/ |
| 01:01.04 | AStorm | ahha, quantization |
| 01:01.25 | AStorm | I had that in the first try, fails badly sometimes :> |
| 01:01.33 | lcuk2 | the older vb method uses polar coords instead |
| 01:01.36 | lcuk2 | yeah it does |
| 01:01.38 | AStorm | thus settled to angle+length |
| 01:01.40 | lcuk2 | the polar one was better |
| 01:01.47 | AStorm | exactly |
| 01:01.53 | lcuk2 | :) |
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| 01:02.12 | AStorm | only need to have a lower bpund on length |
| 01:02.26 | AStorm | so that angle is meaningful |
| 01:02.49 | lcuk2 | yeah, it worked quite nicely, i did skipping and only measured at some boundary i believe |
| 01:03.03 | AStorm | hm |
| 01:03.18 | lcuk2 | thats the fuzzy bit, it was about 4 years ago |
| 01:03.21 | AStorm | the more important is matching, yup |
| 01:03.27 | AStorm | patent galore |
| 01:04.03 | AStorm | my aim for now is to replace epitext with less suck :) |
| 01:04.05 | lcuk2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:04.44 | lcuk2 | so even though the stroke had many or few points making up that block i counted along until i got to the break point |
| 01:04.57 | AStorm | yes |
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| 01:05.16 | AStorm | but the main feature matching, what was its algorithm? |
| 01:05.30 | AStorm | neural? fuzzy? decision tree? |
| 01:05.34 | lcuk2 | i just had a tree (everything i think of is in trees of some sort) |
| 01:05.35 | AStorm | statistical? |
| 01:05.45 | AStorm | mhm, decision tree then |
| 01:06.01 | AStorm | I dislike them, as they can get into a wrong branch and hang |
| 01:06.03 | AStorm | :P |
| 01:06.16 | lcuk2 | yeah of course, just like a compiler |
| 01:06.34 | AStorm | thus, I went with statistical, as neural is slower and patented |
| 01:06.48 | AStorm | vote-based system should work fine |
| 01:06.58 | AStorm | (aka Winnow) |
| 01:07.15 | lcuk2 | well ive got tonnes of sketches of my handwriting now - i can get the similar strokes quite effectively and map them to utterances (even multi letter cursive) |
| 01:07.38 | AStorm | sketches = not code? |
| 01:07.40 | lcuk2 | but thats just another sidebranch :) |
| 01:07.40 | AStorm | :) |
| 01:07.44 | AStorm | ah |
| 01:07.59 | AStorm | ok, well, I'm fixing ui now |
| 01:08.18 | AStorm | python, pygtk for rapid(er) development |
| 01:08.22 | lcuk2 | astorm, ive got 1000's of sketches in liqbase, these first few are my training ground, i have always wanted to make use of them - i keep every vector |
| 01:08.29 | AStorm | mhm |
| 01:08.40 | AStorm | nice, I will need testcases later |
| 01:09.00 | lcuk2 | it grows everyday :) i love it for its rapidness at that |
| 01:09.18 | lcuk2 | i think we will have more before too long |
| 01:10.10 | lcuk2 | anyway :) nice to know people are working on the HWR :) let me know if theres anything I might be able to help with |
| 01:10.22 | lcuk2 | vanishes again |
| 01:10.22 | AStorm | hmm.,, not yet |
| 01:10.27 | lcuk2 | cya later astorm |
| 01:20.01 | timeless | tries slurping the fremantle sdk |
| 01:20.06 | timeless | sadly this seems to work |
| 01:21.05 | AStorm | sadly? |
| 01:21.53 | timeless | well, now i have to actually do work w/ it |
| 01:22.00 | timeless | and i have 2 distinct ways to do it |
| 01:22.03 | timeless | one i like, and one that works |
| 01:22.14 | timeless | so now i have to either use the one that works or fix the one i like |
| 01:24.56 | AStorm | :P |
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| 01:32.46 | timeless | they're fairly close, except that they're doing somewhat different things |
| 01:32.56 | timeless | and they diverged about a year ago :) |
| 01:33.16 | timeless | (both were written in /bin/sh originally, but one was rewritten in /bin/perl |
| 01:35.43 | timeless | oh man, that's confusing |
| 01:35.46 | timeless | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 Jul 17 2006 /bin -> ./usr/bin |
| 01:35.54 | timeless | no wonder i can do /bin/perl :) |
| 01:36.39 | AStorm | timeless, /usr/bin/env perl |
| 01:36.50 | AStorm | this fails only on antique solaris |
| 01:37.03 | timeless | debian@swift:~% uname -a |
| 01:37.03 | timeless | SunOS swift 5.11 snv_53 i86pc i386 i86pc |
| 01:37.34 | timeless | doesn't seem to work particularly well on my solaris |
| 01:37.46 | timeless | with a startup time like this, i don't need enemies |
| 01:38.09 | timeless | woudl die of old age |
| 01:38.15 | AStorm | ouch |
| 01:38.29 | AStorm | try type -p perl |
| 01:38.36 | AStorm | this tends to work |
| 01:38.50 | timeless | debian@swift:~% type -p perl |
| 01:38.50 | timeless | perl is /usr/bin/perl |
| 01:39.02 | AStorm | damn |
| 01:39.04 | timeless | and yes, debian is a user, but it's a strange user |
| 01:39.06 | AStorm | :> |
| 01:39.10 | timeless | debian@swift:~% which apt-get |
| 01:39.10 | timeless | /home/debian/bin/apt-get |
| 01:39.16 | timeless | debian@swift:~% which dpkg |
| 01:39.16 | timeless | /home/debian/bin/dpkg |
| 01:39.43 | AStorm | which is non-standard |
| 01:39.45 | AStorm | :/ |
| 01:39.54 | timeless | it has enough pieces from nexenta in order to do interesting things |
| 01:40.05 | AStorm | I can't recall which type option dropped path only |
| 01:40.25 | AStorm | maybe big -P |
| 01:40.32 | timeless | type takes no args according to the man page |
| 01:40.42 | AStorm | hmmmh |
| 01:40.50 | AStorm | gnuism galore |
| 01:40.52 | AStorm | :/ |
| 01:41.17 | AStorm | anyway, #!perl should work |
| 01:41.24 | timeless | debian@swift:~% /usr/bin/type -p perl |
| 01:41.24 | timeless | /usr/bin/type[8]: type: bad option(s) |
| 01:41.34 | AStorm | no path necessary, unless it's security code |
| 01:41.39 | timeless | $HOME/bin/perl should work too :) |
| 01:41.45 | timeless | let the owner deal w/ it :) |
| 01:41.46 | AStorm | nah |
| 01:42.07 | timeless | anyway, changing /bin/perl to /usr/bin/perl so it would run on linxu wasn't a big deal |
| 01:42.19 | timeless | nor was changing /usr/sfw/bin/wget to /usr/bin/wget :) |
| 01:44.32 | AStorm | #!whget |
| 01:44.40 | AStorm | will work |
| 01:44.44 | timeless | ?! |
| 01:44.49 | AStorm | drop the path unless security |
| 01:44.51 | AStorm | #!wget |
| 01:45.12 | timeless | oh, i can't |
| 01:45.16 | AStorm | why? |
| 01:45.21 | timeless | PATH is often empty or similarly useless :) |
| 01:45.32 | AStorm | then fix it |
| 01:45.32 | timeless | it's not quite security, more about working w/ various strange worlds |
| 01:45.38 | AStorm | as shell is useless then |
| 01:45.40 | timeless | nah, each script has its own quirks |
| 01:45.40 | AStorm | :) |
| 01:45.48 | timeless | shell doesn't do anything |
| 01:45.55 | timeless | it's a user called debian on sun solaris :) |
| 01:46.05 | timeless | it's not a user called timeless on nexenta (debian solaris) |
| 01:46.16 | AStorm | no shrc? or profile file? |
| 01:46.32 | timeless | typically it's not interesting |
| 01:46.45 | timeless | and my scripts hop from user to user often enough |
| 01:46.50 | timeless | anyway, it's no big deal |
| 01:48.59 | timeless | ponders |
| 01:55.31 | *** join/#maemo AStorm (n=astralst@unaffiliated/astralstorm) |
| 01:56.34 | AStorm | hmm |
| 01:56.53 | AStorm | any nice way to hildonize a terminal app? |
| 01:57.33 | AStorm | esp. irssi |
| 01:57.49 | AStorm | I want activity notification |
| 01:58.08 | AStorm | and button support (zoom button to switch tags) |
| 02:00.46 | *** join/#maemo x29a_ (n=x29a@unaffiliated/x29a) |
| 02:03.53 | AStorm | also, mouse support |
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| 02:36.31 | timeless | grumbles |
| 02:36.32 | timeless | zsh: segmentation fault (core dumped) apt-cache -c /home/debian/apt-sb-g.conf search |
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| 03:22.24 | GeneralAntilles | lol, Mr. Debian fanboy is back http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/2008/12/10/bugsmaemoorg-reorganization-done/ <_< |
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| 03:39.36 | johnx | starts to appreciate life on the console |
| 03:43.12 | acydlord | oh blarg, i think the fw image i downloaded earlier is corrupt |
| 03:43.41 | GeneralAntilles | acydlord, you realize you can just update through the application manager, right? |
| 03:43.43 | GeneralAntilles | ~ssu |
| 03:43.43 | infobot | ssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU |
| 03:44.04 | acydlord | my image is too old to update on the device |
| 03:44.15 | GeneralAntilles | 30-2? |
| 03:44.25 | GeneralAntilles | That's only one release old |
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| 03:45.07 | acydlord | it wasnt giving me the option to update |
| 03:46.10 | GeneralAntilles | Then you either removed osso-software-version or the version string wasn't updated (happens sometimes) |
| 03:46.36 | GeneralAntilles | What are you on, an N800? |
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| 03:49.09 | acydlord | my internet connection seems to have developed leprocy lately |
| 03:50.20 | GeneralAntilles | Are you on an N800? |
| 03:51.23 | acydlord | i'm on a pc at the moment |
| 03:51.34 | acydlord | i think my isp is throttling my connection |
| 03:51.42 | GeneralAntilles | You have an N800 rather than an N810, though, right? |
| 03:51.43 | acydlord | works fine till i'm trying to download anything |
| 03:52.25 | acydlord | i've got an N810 |
| 03:52.41 | GeneralAntilles | Try an apt-get install osso-software-version-rx44 |
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| 03:53.03 | acydlord | i'll try that |
| 03:53.18 | acydlord | i think when i installed screenrotate it probably pooched that update path |
| 03:53.34 | GeneralAntilles | Ah |
| 03:53.39 | GeneralAntilles | Try an apt-get install osso-software-version-rx44-unlocked then |
| 03:53.52 | GeneralAntilles | That should get you where you need to be |
| 03:54.19 | acydlord | i'll try that once i get this connectivity issue resolved |
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| 04:18.56 | r2d2rogers | trying to figure out xorg and touch screen input on my 770 |
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| 04:20.41 | zakkm | qwerty12_n800: you there? |
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| 04:34.54 | zakkm | anyone here? |
| 04:36.22 | r2d2rogers | o/ |
| 04:39.04 | pupnik | hi |
| 04:39.40 | r2d2rogers | how's it going pupnik ? |
| 04:41.52 | pupnik | okay |
| 04:42.09 | pupnik | legal messes, chilling in irc for relaxation |
| 04:43.16 | pupnik | and you r2d2rogers ? btw the R2D2 sounds were made with an ARP2600 |
| 04:43.24 | r2d2rogers | ewww yeah I can see that |
| 04:43.28 | r2d2rogers | good here |
| 04:43.40 | r2d2rogers | playing with Sts's mer stuff on my 770 |
| 04:44.13 | r2d2rogers | I've tried to figure out how you'd type some of those sounds into IRC, but didn't come up with much satisfying |
| 04:44.25 | r2d2rogers | I like the 2600 part of the model though |
| 04:44.32 | pupnik | BWEOOP! mwooooo... |
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| 04:45.11 | r2d2rogers | looks up from the wikipedia article on the ARP1600, " Nice! " |
| 04:45.33 | r2d2rogers | I can hear that bit in my head |
| 04:45.35 | pupnik | http://obliq.net/museum/arp2600.htm |
| 04:45.48 | pupnik | i had one for a week. hardly slept |
| 04:46.39 | r2d2rogers | I need to get a better toy budget ;) |
| 04:49.29 | pupnik | might as well just play with a software synth for free |
| 04:49.34 | r2d2rogers | pupnik: I don't suppose you'd have any insight on the touchscreen driver for a 770 under xorg would you? |
| 04:49.39 | r2d2rogers | ::nods:: |
| 04:49.54 | pupnik | you mean the xsp extensions, pressure etc? |
| 04:49.56 | r2d2rogers | thinking I have the wrong event or evdev isn't happy |
| 04:50.08 | r2d2rogers | at this point just getting any input |
| 04:50.36 | r2d2rogers | (**) Option "TslibDevice" "/dev/input/event3" |
| 04:50.36 | r2d2rogers | ts_open failed (device=/dev/input/event3) |
| 04:51.35 | pupnik | no idea about that stuff |
| 04:51.52 | r2d2rogers | cool |
| 04:51.54 | r2d2rogers | no worries |
| 04:52.14 | r2d2rogers | just wishing the timezones worked out better for asking people in my evening time <G> |
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| 04:54.35 | r2d2rogers | I think I found it |
| 04:54.48 | r2d2rogers | cat /dev/mouse0 gives output hen I hit the screen |
| 04:55.00 | r2d2rogers | s/hen/when/ |
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| 05:29.50 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: hint, it may simply be udev not running |
| 05:30.10 | r2d2rogers | hmm |
| 05:30.24 | r2d2rogers | no /dev/input/event3 caused by that? |
| 05:30.33 | r2d2rogers | hints on how to make udev run? |
| 05:30.53 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: edit init script of it and remove old kernel check |
| 05:31.59 | Stskeeps | im gonna nap another hour |
| 05:32.24 | r2d2rogers | Stskeeps: thanks for the hints |
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| 06:46.18 | Meiz_n810 | jauntys bluetooth management is a lot better than the one i had in deblet |
| 06:48.17 | RST38h | moo all |
| 06:50.13 | Meiz_n810 | moo |
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| 07:24.07 | Meiz__n810 | I installled powerlaunch, now mer boot stops to "begin main loop" |
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| 08:41.47 | aquatix | Khertan2, Khertan_WebIrc5: you here? |
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| 09:31.25 | gnuton | Hi there |
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| 09:47.45 | keesj | Hi |
| 09:48.46 | keesj | what upstart version will the next gen maemo be using? |
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| 09:59.49 | Stskeeps | Meiz_n810: yeah, powerlaunch needs adapating |
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| 10:02.01 | Stskeeps | ponders |
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| 10:08.59 | timeless | keesj: no one has any idea what version of a library will be used |
| 10:09.23 | keesj | but the sdk was released |
| 10:09.36 | timeless | no |
| 10:09.41 | timeless | an alpha sdk was released |
| 10:09.44 | timeless | or pre alpha or something |
| 10:09.48 | GeneralAntilles | pre-alpha even |
| 10:09.52 | timeless | that's not a contract to use a given version of a something |
| 10:10.00 | Stskeeps | morning GeneralAntilles, ta for copy-edit |
| 10:10.05 | timeless | it's merely an indication of technology that'll probably be included |
| 10:10.09 | timeless | not the version level |
| 10:10.10 | GeneralAntilles | Upstart isn't even in there yet, I don't think. |
| 10:10.17 | Stskeeps | don't think so either |
| 10:10.20 | Stskeeps | i actually forgot to look |
| 10:10.21 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 10:10.24 | keesj | that is what I am interested in (the indication) |
| 10:10.47 | GeneralAntilles | keesj, it's just too early to tell. |
| 10:10.47 | timeless | anyway, i started pulling in an xref for fremantle |
| 10:10.55 | timeless | but i kinda got stuck (ENEEDSLEEP) |
| 10:10.56 | keesj | I guess upstart is not really needed in the sdk is maemo doesn't use it to much |
| 10:11.17 | Stskeeps | it might be along with the OHM and alpha SDK release |
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| 10:12.39 | timeless | but even if an alpha release has a component |
| 10:12.45 | timeless | that's not a contract on the version of the component |
| 10:12.54 | timeless | if a newer version comes and is needed, it might be picked |
| 10:13.38 | keesj | I just have been bussy with upstart the last year or so and was ready to share some problems :P |
| 10:13.54 | timeless | ponders |
| 10:14.04 | Stskeeps | keesj: like? |
| 10:14.15 | timeless | freemantle seems to expose matchbox 1 and matchbox 2 atm |
| 10:14.23 | timeless | but i can assure you both won't be used :) |
| 10:15.07 | GeneralAntilles | Well, it does mean we can use a Diablo UI on Fremantle |
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| 10:15.21 | timeless | why? |
| 10:15.21 | keesj | well I tried the upgrade to upstart 0.5 and found is imature |
| 10:15.49 | GeneralAntilles | timeless, because all the work to port it is done. |
| 10:21.23 | keesj | Stskeeps: for example the new inictl->dbus->upstart thing |
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| 10:26.18 | timeless | you can only run one window manager at a time :) |
| 10:27.55 | GeneralAntilles | What I mean to say is, the Diablo UI already being available on Fremantle makes running "Fremantle" on hardware without accelerated OpenGL a helluva lot easier. |
| 10:29.34 | timeless | i suppose one could say that the people @nokia took advantage of that in order to not port all apps to fremantle at the same time :) |
| 10:30.18 | timeless | fwiw, the accelerated opengl stuff atm basically means that the desktop can crash that much faster |
| 10:30.26 | timeless | (something like 5 web pages) |
| 10:30.28 | GeneralAntilles | They didn't want to release the Fremantle UI early (I'm sure everybody knows exactly what kind of reaction that usually brings), so in order to have a UI for the alphas we get Diablo. |
| 10:31.16 | GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, ping? |
| 10:32.10 | timeless | curses |
| 10:34.39 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: http://rafb.net/p/rwpovf75.html <- any comments before i send it off? |
| 10:35.07 | GeneralAntilles | Oh, right. |
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| 10:35.14 | GeneralAntilles | "solely by community effort" |
| 10:35.16 | GeneralAntilles | Drop that |
| 10:35.20 | Stskeeps | alright |
| 10:35.23 | GeneralAntilles | It's neither true nor useful. :P |
| 10:35.45 | GeneralAntilles | Maybe say "primarily" |
| 10:36.06 | Stskeeps | *nod* |
| 10:36.08 | GeneralAntilles | Or just end it with "platform from Nokia." |
| 10:36.55 | GeneralAntilles | Where did you pick up ", - "? |
| 10:37.18 | timeless | fwiw, i hate SCM |
| 10:37.21 | timeless | it sounds like scum |
| 10:37.25 | timeless | what's wrong w/ VCS? |
| 10:37.30 | aquatix | nothing |
| 10:37.38 | aquatix | uses vcs |
| 10:37.46 | timeless | => Stskeeps |
| 10:37.48 | aquatix | lot better dan scum indeed |
| 10:38.30 | GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, if you're putting that on itT, remember to [url=http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New]blueprint[/url] |
| 10:39.22 | GeneralAntilles | line 30: "The logs will be made available after the meeting has ended." |
| 10:39.57 | GeneralAntilles | ". . . officially start in January 2009, but some work is to be done before |
| 10:39.58 | GeneralAntilles | that such as repository, infrastructure, developer tools and organization." |
| 10:40.03 | GeneralAntilles | That just needs help. |
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| 11:15.25 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: alright |
| 11:15.49 | GeneralAntilles | "developer, - everyone" |
| 11:15.57 | GeneralAntilles | Just drop the comma there |
| 11:16.06 | Stskeeps | k |
| 11:16.23 | lardman | morning |
| 11:16.27 | GeneralAntilles | Hi, lardman. |
| 11:16.34 | lardman | hi GA |
| 11:17.04 | lardman | looks at Blackwell's offer of the day and wonders why there are never any books.. |
| 11:17.33 | keesj | GeneralAntilles: I wonder what build system you plan to use (are you keeping .deb stuff?) . |
| 11:19.29 | GeneralAntilles | keesj, talk to Stskeeps, I'm just the community guy. :P |
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| 11:20.10 | GeneralAntilles | The theme of the week for me seems to be beetles. |
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| 11:20.20 | GeneralAntilles | There's a weevil wandering across the top of my monitor for some reason. |
| 11:20.26 | Stskeeps | bug infestation? |
| 11:20.35 | GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, not really. |
| 11:20.36 | Stskeeps | or going insane from studying for finals? :P |
| 11:20.42 | GeneralAntilles | Weirdly obscure beetles. |
| 11:20.43 | GeneralAntilles | Hehe |
| 11:20.45 | GeneralAntilles | Could be that. :P |
| 11:21.16 | Stskeeps | i know the feeling. finishing up this semester's reports these days. :P |
| 11:21.21 | GeneralAntilles | weevil today, tiger beetle staring at me yesterday and a giant ass rhinoceros beetle sitting on my welcome mat two days ago |
| 11:21.33 | GeneralAntilles | Just 2 more days and 2 exams |
| 11:21.38 | Stskeeps | i have a ladybird living in my bathroom. |
| 11:22.00 | Stskeeps | am astonished it's able to survive, so i let it live and talk to it once in a while :P |
| 11:22.09 | GeneralAntilles | lol |
| 11:22.16 | GeneralAntilles | "ladybird" had to look that up. |
| 11:22.26 | GeneralAntilles | We call 'em "ladybugs" over here. |
| 11:22.59 | Stskeeps | yeah, british english |
| 11:23.34 | GeneralAntilles | We buy 'em refrigerated to take care of aphids in the garden every once and a while. |
| 11:30.48 | Stskeeps | they can survive freezing? interesting |
| 11:31.01 | GeneralAntilles | For a bit |
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| 11:35.10 | jagernot | refrigerated! |
| 11:36.29 | jagernot | if the crops grown were grown such that they were suitable to the growing conditions..ladybugs dont have to be bought frozen |
| 11:36.40 | jagernot | they woud be there in the garden for free lol |
| 11:37.55 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: posted |
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| 11:39.49 | GeneralAntilles | isn't growing crops. |
| 11:40.46 | jagernot | what do you grow general? |
| 11:41.29 | RST38h | "Anti-retroviral drugs used to treat HIV/Aids are being bought and smoked by teenagers in South Africa to get high." |
| 11:41.30 | GeneralAntilles | Nothing lately. |
| 11:41.44 | Stskeeps | RST38h: better than lighter gas or glue.. |
| 11:41.44 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 11:41.52 | RST38h | Sts: Who knows... |
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| 11:45.12 | XTL | Brain solvents |
| 11:47.32 | RST38h | ...and some FDA news: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16207-gun-for-the-disabled-classed-as-medical-device.html |
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| 11:53.23 | AStorm | replace image on redraw |
| 11:53.34 | AStorm | sorry, wrong window |
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| 11:53.55 | RST38h | animating something? =) |
| 11:56.53 | AStorm | similar |
| 11:56.59 | lardman | keesj: regarding build systems, why were you asking? |
| 11:57.01 | AStorm | wanting to resize a backbuffer pixmap |
| 11:57.21 | keesj | just wonder if OE was used |
| 11:57.31 | AStorm | which for some reason unknown to me sends a size-request |
| 11:57.35 | lardman | I was looking at that, Mamona is an option |
| 11:57.42 | AStorm | and breaks my whole scheme into an infinite loop |
| 11:57.43 | lardman | and indeed would be my preference |
| 11:58.21 | Stskeeps | really wondered why mamona didn't become more |
| 11:58.31 | Stskeeps | it had the nokia connections and all i think |
| 11:58.42 | GeneralAntilles | bergie, ping? |
| 11:59.05 | lardman | Stskeeps: it was targetting a future gcc & libc |
| 11:59.18 | lardman | Stskeeps: though that may now be the current one |
| 11:59.29 | GeneralAntilles | http://maemo.org/community/council/on_repositories/ |
| 12:00.31 | AStorm | RST38h: +1 for the company |
| 12:00.36 | AStorm | "It's something that they need to assist them in daily living," |
| 12:01.19 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: good article |
| 12:02.42 | bergie | GeneralAntilles: pong |
| 12:02.50 | AStorm | well, I could redo the whole whizzbang by not using a backbuffer, but that will kill perfomance |
| 12:02.50 | AStorm | (like epitext does) |
| 12:03.05 | GeneralAntilles | bergie, I may or may not have broken Events http://maemo.org/news/events/ |
| 12:03.35 | bergie | GeneralAntilles: what do you mean? |
| 12:04.22 | GeneralAntilles | bergie, well, the new event isn't appearing on the front page and if you click the link it sends you to http://maemo.org/news/events// |
| 12:05.06 | bergie | GeneralAntilles: let me fix the URL... the calendar URL name generator is broken in .2 |
| 12:05.11 | bergie | but has been fixed since :-) |
| 12:05.21 | GeneralAntilles | Thanks! |
| 12:06.05 | bergie | http://maemo.org/news/events/mer-project-bootstrapping-meeting/ |
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| 12:14.10 | Stskeeps | notes to himself he's been hacking a little too much at maemo when he can remember the url for diablo updates, how to authenticate, and the password, by heart. |
| 12:16.18 | lardman | :) |
| 12:18.05 | Stskeeps | just looking through packages and pondering how many could actually potentially be ABI compatible with mer already |
| 12:18.26 | lardman | abi or api? |
| 12:18.30 | Stskeeps | abi |
| 12:18.34 | Stskeeps | the closed source ones |
| 12:18.42 | lardman | due to the gcc change then? |
| 12:18.58 | Stskeeps | was there a change in ABI gcc3->4? |
| 12:19.04 | lardman | I thought not |
| 12:19.27 | Stskeeps | well i'm speaking of a scenario where nokia could provide let's say, hwr, for people to install |
| 12:19.34 | Stskeeps | pipe dream, probably |
| 12:19.57 | lardman | ~hwr |
| 12:19.58 | infobot | hwr is, like, HandWriting Recognition. |
| 12:20.06 | lardman | ah, well that's api then isn't it? |
| 12:20.15 | Stskeeps | api is if you can recompile things i guess |
| 12:20.21 | Stskeeps | abi is when it runs when you just get handed binaries |
| 12:20.44 | lardman | hmm, abi is binary interface, how params are passed to fns, how the linker names fns, etc |
| 12:20.51 | Stskeeps | ok |
| 12:20.58 | lardman | as in which registers the params are passed in, etc |
| 12:21.07 | lardman | api is names of fns and the like |
| 12:21.15 | Stskeeps | in any case, let's say we were able to on nokia devices, drop in nokia's ICD. |
| 12:21.24 | lardman | yes, that would be ideal |
| 12:21.44 | Stskeeps | but we'll see how well it works |
| 12:21.54 | Stskeeps | and that probably definately needs discussion with nokia :P |
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| 12:22.27 | lardman | well, perhaps, would be nice to just be able to install from the Fremantle repo, nothing to prevent that |
| 12:22.33 | Stskeeps | yeah, true |
| 12:25.07 | Stskeeps | at least it's less of a pipe dream than "hmm, nokia, could you take X differentiated application and compile in this SDK" |
| 12:25.27 | lardman | yeah, well that was never something I was thinking of |
| 12:25.41 | Stskeeps | and put out on the nokia-tablet-only passworded repo |
| 12:25.59 | lardman | has anyone checked to see if the Fremantle binaries are compiled for the Cortex? |
| 12:26.16 | lardman | I'm not sure how off the top of my head, "file" doesn't do it |
| 12:26.27 | Stskeeps | objdump maybe |
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| 12:29.00 | lardman | just a thought, as if it's compiled for the Cortex any ideas of installing from the repo on the n8x0 go out the window |
| 12:29.05 | Stskeeps | yeah |
| 12:29.18 | Stskeeps | i guess you can see it on sdk |
| 12:29.19 | Stskeeps | sec |
| 12:29.19 | lardman | but it's probably not from past experience |
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| 12:32.00 | RST38h | lardman: it depends |
| 12:32.34 | RST38h | lardman: Does Cortex still use the same ABI? Are there any "special" instructions compiler makes use of? |
| 12:32.46 | lardman | yes, new instructions |
| 12:32.53 | RST38h | but are they used? |
| 12:32.58 | Stskeeps | lardman: i think i saw NEON mentioned in some libraries at least |
| 12:32.59 | lardman | ARM is backwards compatible |
| 12:33.15 | RST38h | I mean, if it is just more of the vector stuff, then it is probably not used by the compiler anyway |
| 12:33.15 | lardman | yeah, they will be used sometimes, will have to see |
| 12:33.32 | lardman | not sure, will have to look at the ARM site docs and see what's been added really |
| 12:34.59 | Stskeeps | lardman: but besides that, asking them to take a source package, compile it in a sdk, may not be a pipe dream, if it has to deal with fremantle->n8x0.. but we'll see |
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| 12:35.26 | Stskeeps | its a thing worth considering |
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| 12:35.55 | RST38h | Sts: Sorry to ask but why has this problem occured in the first place? |
| 12:36.14 | Stskeeps | RST38h: .. cos it's closed source? :P |
| 12:36.21 | RST38h | None of us (except for you, General, and your Beagles) have Cortex yet |
| 12:36.39 | Stskeeps | RST38h: my initial focus was on the nokia differentiation thins |
| 12:36.53 | Stskeeps | and possible use of them on tablets |
| 12:36.58 | RST38h | ah |
| 12:37.20 | RST38h | so, Nokia produces another closed source app for fremantle and you want to run it on Mer/earlier hw? |
| 12:37.49 | Stskeeps | my focus was mainly on diablo things on mer, but updates to these from fremantle could be interesting too |
| 12:37.59 | Stskeeps | pipe dream, but interesting thought |
| 12:40.51 | lardman | it has Tumb-2, if that's used |
| 12:40.59 | lardman | thumb even |
| 12:41.25 | Stskeeps | Thumb-2 technology is featured in the processor, and in all ARMv7 architecture-based processors. |
| 12:41.27 | RST38h | what is new in the -2 version? |
| 12:41.54 | lardman | iirc you can mix thumb and normal without changing mode, something like that |
| 12:42.32 | AStorm | which isn't all too useful on its own |
| 12:42.33 | RST38h | ah cool |
| 12:42.37 | RST38h | no it is |
| 12:42.43 | AStorm | because either you want to save space |
| 12:42.46 | AStorm | or do high performance |
| 12:42.48 | AStorm | :) |
| 12:42.59 | lardman | http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/archi-thumb2.html |
| 12:43.03 | RST38h | thumb often has higher performance |
| 12:43.09 | AStorm | weird, it shouldn't |
| 12:43.32 | lardman | shorter instructions so you can get more in the cache? |
| 12:44.02 | RST38h | AStorm: hint: memory read in ARM architecture is usually times slower than an opcode execution |
| 12:44.10 | AStorm | :> |
| 12:44.12 | AStorm | yes, cache |
| 12:44.17 | *** join/#maemo MoRpHeUz (n=morphbr@200.184.118.130) |
| 12:44.29 | *** join/#maemo ttmrichter (n=ttmricht@58.49.244.134) |
| 12:44.31 | AStorm | anyway, new thumb should be very fast |
| 12:46.19 | lardman | hmm, looking at the white paper - speed + lower power, I wouldn't be surprised if thumb-2 is the default |
| 12:46.37 | lardman | iirc OE now builds thumb as the default for the Beagle doesn't it? |
| 12:47.28 | AStorm | there is a thumb2 armv6 too |
| 12:47.33 | AStorm | it's optional though in v6 |
| 12:47.41 | AStorm | and OMAP2 doesn't have it |
| 12:47.53 | lardman | is the arm1136 arm6? I thought it was arm7? |
| 12:48.26 | AStorm | it is arm6 |
| 12:48.26 | lardman | dislikes the confusion between ARM hw and language versions |
| 12:48.31 | lardman | ok |
| 12:48.42 | AStorm | arm6t2 is arm1156t2 |
| 12:49.10 | lardman | ok, that's when thumb-2 was introduced so the ARM site said |
| 12:49.41 | *** join/#maemo b1ackdeath (n=blackdea@130.sub-97-34-115.myvzw.com) |
| 12:50.59 | RST38h | AStorm: ARM chips come with 8kB..32kB caches - no match for modern apps |
| 12:51.05 | b1ackdeath | is any one good at xmodmap keycodes for the n810 |
| 12:51.29 | Veggen | blackdeath: I did something with it. |
| 12:51.43 | *** join/#maemo setanta (n=setanta@200.184.118.130) |
| 12:52.15 | Veggen | but I think they've done something truly weird, I didn't get any sense at all for the keys under the scandinavian setup if I modified, but if I copied the *exact* same to german, it worked. |
| 12:52.26 | *** join/#maemo johnx (i=hidden-u@202.209.68.73) |
| 12:52.33 | Stskeeps | afternoon johnx |
| 12:52.45 | johnx | hey |
| 12:52.48 | b1ackdeath | do you know how i would add a cht + insert for a past function |
| 12:52.50 | GeneralAntilles | Who wants to bet it was gonna be Cortex A7 until they found the numbers matched? ;) |
| 12:53.22 | Stskeeps | oh dear god |
| 12:53.26 | Stskeeps | 3d mania christmas edition |
| 12:53.33 | johnx | :D |
| 12:53.53 | johnx | so nice to see people making really classy themes |
| 12:54.19 | GeneralAntilles | Beautiful! https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/4978/homesshot.jpg |
| 12:54.20 | X-Fade | Can't be as bad as the official valentine theme ;) http://breet.com/maemo/valentine.png |
| 12:54.30 | lcuk2 | thumb opcodes are beneficial in a space constrained system because by default they take up much less space than unoptimized full arm opcodes - however careful use of the fullopcodes can yeald much higher performance bec ause each opcode can do more steps in a single code |
| 12:54.33 | Veggen | blackdeath: sorry, been a while. And I forgot to backup the config file stuff before I reflashed ;P |
| 12:54.41 | Stskeeps | X-Fade: omg ponies |
| 12:54.49 | *** join/#maemo blade_runner (n=arezende@200.184.118.130) |
| 12:54.51 | Stskeeps | or something |
| 12:54.53 | Stskeeps | that's truely sickening |
| 12:54.54 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 12:55.00 | X-Fade | Stskeeps: Officially released by Nokia, not the slashdot one ;) |
| 12:55.04 | b1ackdeath | cuz not being able to past stuff in the terminal is really anoying, right now i have to use the menu to past |
| 12:55.13 | GeneralAntilles | I'm amazed that I haven't gone blind after 3 years of Nokia themes. |
| 12:55.22 | GeneralAntilles | The OS2005, 2006 and 2007 ones were truly horrific. |
| 12:55.32 | Stskeeps | i kinda like os2008 ones |
| 12:55.42 | GeneralAntilles | OS2008 is the first to have decent themes |
| 12:55.45 | aquatix | Stskeeps: yeah, me too |
| 12:55.46 | lcuk2 | you've not gone blind, but you have hairy palms |
| 12:55.53 | b1ackdeath | thx lcuk2 i will look into that |
| 12:55.57 | GeneralAntilles | Though I'd argue that Echo is the only really good one out of the lot. |
| 12:56.23 | Stskeeps | johnx: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer_Blueprint_New <- reading material btw |
| 12:56.27 | johnx | really liked the earlier planktons |
| 12:56.36 | GeneralAntilles | :shudder: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=466&stc=1&d=1192568639 |
| 12:56.38 | johnx | Stskeeps: will do |
| 12:56.40 | Stskeeps | (now with bootstrapping tasks) |
| 12:56.47 | GeneralAntilles | johnx, OS2007 Plankton was really nice. |
| 12:56.59 | lcuk2 | thumb opcodes are closer to "standard" that compilers have been building for for years - the arm 32bit combos are more like functions and a lot of the time end up underutilized, so waste space |
| 12:57.24 | *** join/#maemo abinader (n=bruno@189.2.128.130) |
| 12:57.30 | aquatix | GeneralAntilles: ew indeed |
| 12:57.45 | AStorm | lcuk2: that's why there will be ARMv7M |
| 12:57.49 | AStorm | with thumb-2 only |
| 12:57.54 | GeneralAntilles | OS2006 had the berry themes |
| 12:57.56 | AStorm | a nice variant would have no bw compat |
| 12:58.12 | Stskeeps | http://themehackers.maemobox.org/wp-content/gallery/screenshots/screenshot08.png <- scaringily enough the XP theme works .. okay, on a tablet. |
| 12:58.28 | b1ackdeath | i'll be back if anyone likes pentesting take a look at my blog B1ackdeath.blogspot.com iv listed a bunch of tools that work =p |
| 12:59.13 | aquatix | should look into making a nice clean theme himself |
| 12:59.30 | GeneralAntilles | There were a lot more themes for OS2006 |
| 12:59.34 | GeneralAntilles | Most of them sucked, but still. |
| 12:59.34 | lcuk2 | grrrrrs @ pentesting |
| 12:59.51 | X-Fade | While a bit geeky, the LCARS theme really shows you what can be done ;) |
| 12:59.52 | Stskeeps | i guess kontorri's theme maker helps on it these days |
| 12:59.57 | aquatix | X-Fade: yeah |
| 12:59.59 | aquatix | it's kinda neat |
| 13:00.05 | aquatix | but not entirely my taste :) |
| 13:00.06 | lcuk2 | "network penetration testing" not testing the touchscreen pen handling |
| 13:01.07 | *** join/#maemo ignacius (n=ignacius@206.Red-81-37-75.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) |
| 13:02.00 | *** join/#maemo andrewfblack (n=andrewfb@68.59.79.2) |
| 13:02.08 | andrewfblack | Morngin |
| 13:02.12 | AStorm | for some reason, black backgrounds look horrible on LCD screens |
| 13:02.18 | AStorm | esp. on LCD transflective screens like n810's |
| 13:02.23 | johnx | Stskeeps: wow. getting all big and organized? |
| 13:02.31 | lcuk2 | only when brightness is wayy up |
| 13:02.37 | Stskeeps | johnx: got to .. else it's going to keel over and die. or i am |
| 13:02.37 | Stskeeps | johnx: got to .. else it's going to keel over and die. or :P |
| 13:02.44 | Stskeeps | .. wtf irssi. |
| 13:02.52 | AStorm | lcuk2: I mean, no |
| 13:02.54 | aquatix | AStorm: yeah, contrast isn't as good then |
| 13:02.58 | AStorm | always, when sun is shining on the screen |
| 13:03.01 | AStorm | contrast too low :) |
| 13:03.04 | aquatix | however, i like fbreader in black with white font |
| 13:03.17 | lcuk2 | ahhh yes, i like the way the colors wash out leaving greyscale :) |
| 13:04.13 | johnx | Stskeeps: as long as we can actually find people who have a clue at how to manage a project |
| 13:04.14 | lcuk2 | anyway, theres a db crisis here that cow-orker has b0rkened i suppose i need to put on my sqlserver hat :) |
| 13:04.15 | *** join/#maemo housetier (n=housetie@unaffiliated/housetier) |
| 13:05.49 | *** join/#maemo zeenix (i=zeenix@static.fi) |
| 13:06.20 | aquatix | wonders what's up with people creating Mac-os themes for all kinds of OS'es and devices |
| 13:08.34 | Stskeeps | aquatix: mac envy |
| 13:09.09 | Stskeeps | johnx: i suspect there are some personalities in community that could be useful |
| 13:09.50 | AStorm | lcuk2: btw, will timed, reduced FPS updates reduce CPU use nicely, or not? |
| 13:10.39 | Stskeeps | johnx: and if there's some people who don't notice, i'll prolly prod them and ask if they're interested |
| 13:11.21 | *** join/#maemo zap (n=zap@mail.cobra.ru) |
| 13:14.22 | Stskeeps | http://tabletui.wordpress.com/ <- could be interesting |
| 13:15.33 | *** join/#maemo ron1n (n=ron1n@208.253.111.18) |
| 13:16.04 | johnx | though it kinda looks stalled |
| 13:16.23 | Stskeeps | yeah, he's active on forums still though, i think |
| 13:16.57 | Stskeeps | mer's a bit of a wake up call to the community / a loudspeaker for which we can have a bit stronger voice on how we'd like to see the tablets :P |
| 13:17.50 | *** join/#maemo etrunko (n=edulima@200.184.118.130) |
| 13:19.10 | Stskeeps | and not start completely from scratch |
| 13:19.15 | *** join/#maemo alex-weej (n=alex@dyn1206-238.wlan.ic.ac.uk) |
| 13:19.31 | Stskeeps | .. i still haven't found out where i fit in my blueprint either, yet :P |
| 13:19.59 | johnx | heh |
| 13:20.11 | RST38h | Anyone every used DirectFB? |
| 13:20.21 | johnx | when it's all written up it looks pretty overwhelming, huh? |
| 13:20.43 | Stskeeps | yes and no.. it's actually very small steps needed to get the thing running |
| 13:20.56 | Stskeeps | many of the components exist already, activities |
| 13:21.24 | Stskeeps | just trying to wrap those pre-existing activities into having a higher purpose |
| 13:21.28 | johnx | right, but starting to talk about teams and team leaders makes it seem pretty imposing |
| 13:21.33 | Stskeeps | true |
| 13:21.50 | Stskeeps | i guess 'pioneers' make better sense |
| 13:21.50 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 13:22.06 | johnx | just a thought. though the organization will probably help in the long run |
| 13:22.20 | *** join/#maemo b1ackdeath (n=b1ackdea@186.sub-72-119-27.myvzw.com) |
| 13:22.26 | aquatix | you know, this looks kinda cool: http://faceted.wordpress.com/2008/09/21/preview-of-our-new-maemo-theme/ |
| 13:22.31 | GeneralAntilles | I hope Nokia doesn't complete ignore it. |
| 13:22.43 | GeneralAntilles | I'd really rather see Mer and Maemo converge rather than diverge |
| 13:22.50 | *** join/#maemo harry (n=kcome@222.94.54.27) |
| 13:22.59 | aquatix | GeneralAntilles: yeah |
| 13:23.14 | johnx | GeneralAntilles: well so far it looks good, AFAICT |
| 13:23.15 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: my personal intention is that they complement eachother, maybe helping nokia transforming as well |
| 13:24.05 | Stskeeps | mer doesn't exist without the maemo components, so |
| 13:24.09 | johnx | GeneralAntilles: Nokia fixed their package names in svn, so in fact fremantle and mer are closer in some ways than fremantle and diablo |
| 13:24.38 | RST38h | General: The logical thing is to assume that Nokia will ignore it. |
| 13:24.49 | RST38h | General: And if does not, celebrate. |
| 13:24.56 | RST38h | s/does/it does/ |
| 13:25.14 | AStorm | well, why should they ignore it instead of taking the good stuff from it? |
| 13:25.16 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:25.24 | GeneralAntilles | RST38h, well, they're already NOT ignoring it. |
| 13:25.25 | AStorm | it's cheap, as in free |
| 13:25.47 | Stskeeps | RST38h: at least i've had conversations about Mer with qgil, so that always helps, and the existence of the invitation helps too |
| 13:26.03 | RST38h | Sts: Conversation with Quim is not indicative of anything |
| 13:26.07 | Stskeeps | that's true |
| 13:26.07 | johnx | AStorm: well, some of Mer's good stuff might actually fit in with Nokia's idea of Maemo... |
| 13:26.44 | johnx | RST38h: but changes to make packages work right in upstream debuntu is |
| 13:26.45 | RST38h | Sts: The historically observing way of Nokia not ignoring you is hiring you as a contract employee |
| 13:26.53 | AStorm | we need a nice HSPA modem in it :) |
| 13:26.57 | *** join/#maemo Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 13:27.12 | AStorm | obviously, with proper cdc_acm driver |
| 13:27.18 | RST38h | s/observing/observed/ shit I completely suck at this |
| 13:27.21 | johnx | RST38h: whether it's because of mer or because they want to be closer to upstream it doesn't really matter |
| 13:27.34 | *** join/#maemo luck^ (n=Luciano@200.184.118.130) |
| 13:27.44 | AStorm | yes, as long as the direction is good |
| 13:27.53 | RST38h | johnx: They want to build a product that sells. The rest (Mer, upstream, etc) does not really matter to them |
| 13:28.22 | RST38h | johnx: Do not approach this from the viewpoint of a Linux packager. Because Nokia does not. |
| 13:28.36 | johnx | RST38h: well duh. but they also need happy devs and users who aren't giving them bad press at every opportunity |
| 13:28.50 | RST38h | johnx: Not as much as thye need to sell the product |
| 13:29.11 | RST38h | johnx: Happy devs is not even a secondary goal |
| 13:29.14 | johnx | those two components are *part* of selling the product :p |
| 13:29.19 | Stskeeps | 'd buy a tablet with mer on it, even with nokia differentiations |
| 13:29.22 | RST38h | johnx: minorparts |
| 13:29.33 | *** join/#maemo jeez_ (n=jeez@200.184.118.130) |
| 13:29.57 | Meiz_n810 | lxsession segfauls in mer |
| 13:30.00 | johnx | RST38h: I don't attempt to evaluate their motivations, just their actions |
| 13:30.00 | RST38h | johnx: users not giving them bad press is in fact a secondary goal but they do not need the above things for that |
| 13:30.20 | johnx | RST38h: all I'm saying is what I have seen so far |
| 13:30.26 | RST38h | johnx: Yes, but you can't guess their actions correctly if you do not appreciate their motivation |
| 13:30.45 | AStorm | RST38h: well, the integration will save them some money in R&D |
| 13:30.51 | AStorm | so... |
| 13:31.08 | johnx | that's why I try not to rely on predicting their actions |
| 13:31.22 | RST38h | AStorm: It will fist cost them money and then they will suddenly find that the cutting-edge packages require more support |
| 13:31.34 | AStorm | cutting-edge? not really |
| 13:31.38 | AStorm | just take a snapshot |
| 13:32.00 | Stskeeps | RST38h: on the other hand, they get a lot of free testing |
| 13:32.05 | AStorm | less building for them that way, and no more support |
| 13:32.12 | AStorm | and yes, free testing |
| 13:32.31 | Stskeeps | (who said that open source comes with support anyway? i always wondered that) |
| 13:32.32 | RST38h | Sts: You may have noticed that they do not use i to full potential |
| 13:32.49 | johnx | RST38h: they already *did* lots of integration and package fixing. even if they stop now things already look much better |
| 13:32.58 | RST38h | Sts: A lot of pretty serious bugzilla reports get rejected or ignored |
| 13:33.12 | johnx | happens on any bugzilla... |
| 13:33.13 | Stskeeps | RST38h: i still need the statistic of how many bug reports are towards open source packages.. |
| 13:33.26 | RST38h | Sts: Fine example is a report on keyboard lag |
| 13:33.36 | AStorm | keyboard lag -> kernel |
| 13:33.38 | RST38h | Still marked as "unconfirmed" :) |
| 13:33.46 | AStorm | and the kernel was stalled by closed driver |
| 13:33.55 | RST38h | AStorm: Most likely not, looks more like GTK events |
| 13:34.03 | AStorm | well, not |
| 13:34.15 | AStorm | it's kernel scheduler |
| 13:34.21 | Stskeeps | AStorm: noone kept people from looking in GTK or kernel, and recompiling kernel/GTK to check if it fixes |
| 13:34.24 | AStorm | I've been there already |
| 13:34.26 | johnx | happens to a certain extent with usb keyboards but not as bad |
| 13:34.39 | AStorm | upgrading kernel was impossible until now |
| 13:34.46 | AStorm | also, it required a rebuild of whole Xomap |
| 13:34.48 | AStorm | :P |
| 13:34.50 | RST38h | AStorm: Possible. Then, browserd hanging the whole system can also be traced to the scheduler |
| 13:34.58 | Stskeeps | AStorm: much easier in mer now :P |
| 13:34.59 | AStorm | more or less |
| 13:35.12 | AStorm | Stskeeps: see? :> |
| 13:35.45 | RST38h | johnx: it happens with all keyboards, as far as I can tell from the comments |
| 13:36.05 | AStorm | it happens when CPU is loaded |
| 13:36.10 | RST38h | johnx: and it is not the only bug like that in there |
| 13:36.11 | AStorm | :> |
| 13:36.14 | RST38h | yep |
| 13:36.16 | Stskeeps | RST38h: mer also has the advantage of being what community/users want, not business perspective |
| 13:36.20 | *** join/#maemo geaaru_ (n=geaaru@host173-212-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 13:36.29 | AStorm | it happens because kernel doesn't schedule apps fairly |
| 13:36.38 | AStorm | which was fixed in 2.6.23 with new scheduler |
| 13:36.39 | RST38h | Sts: Mer still does not have full Maemo functionality, right? |
| 13:36.51 | johnx | RST38h: define "full" |
| 13:36.52 | Stskeeps | RST38h: depends on what you define as maemo functionality, but no, not yet |
| 13:36.54 | GeneralAntilles | Bug priorities are bug priorities, I wouldn't extrapolate a lot about Nokia's willingness to align with upstream and avoid Maemoisms based on one or two bug reports going unfixed for longer than you like. |
| 13:37.07 | RST38h | AStorm: If you ask me, it has been fixed in BSD since eons ago |
| 13:37.09 | *** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-15-198.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net) |
| 13:37.10 | RST38h | ;) |
| 13:37.11 | AStorm | GeneralAntilles: :> |
| 13:37.26 | AStorm | RST38h: nah, only since 7.0 I think |
| 13:37.35 | RST38h | AStorm: Not really |
| 13:37.36 | johnx | RST38h: most 3rd party apps will eun happily, but no it doesn't have all of Nokia's closed source apps |
| 13:37.36 | AStorm | 6.x had that rarely |
| 13:37.53 | AStorm | like epitext |
| 13:37.54 | AStorm | :P |
| 13:37.58 | lcuk2 | RST38h, the keyboard doesn't have laggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg what are you on abbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbout? |
| 13:37.58 | RST38h | AStorm: BSD from the beginning had a scheduler that gave priority to interactive tasks |
| 13:38.06 | RST38h | lcuk: Yea, right |
| 13:38.09 | AStorm | which is unfair and source of the problem |
| 13:38.20 | AStorm | the other interactive app is blocking the current one |
| 13:38.20 | RST38h | AStorm: Actually, it is a solution to the problem |
| 13:38.24 | AStorm | :P |
| 13:38.26 | AStorm | no, it's not |
| 13:38.33 | AStorm | it's what old Linux sched did |
| 13:38.34 | RST38h | AStorm: What "other" interactive app? |
| 13:38.34 | Stskeeps | wonders when we'll see the first BSD on tablet.. with kexec working. |
| 13:38.38 | AStorm | and see how it fails |
| 13:38.46 | RST38h | AStorm: Interactive app is an app that does a lot of waiting for IO |
| 13:38.46 | AStorm | any, like, say, other window in the background |
| 13:38.56 | AStorm | yes |
| 13:38.59 | AStorm | so does browserd |
| 13:38.59 | lcuk2 | we have WSOD - its only a matter of time before someone makes a black one |
| 13:39.02 | AStorm | or anything else |
| 13:39.03 | RST38h | AStorm: Why would it block anything? |
| 13:39.16 | AStorm | because it does a lot of IO? |
| 13:39.17 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:39.29 | RST38h | AStorm: No, this is not the definition |
| 13:39.31 | AStorm | IO is not a good measure of interactivity |
| 13:39.35 | RST38h | AStorm: At least not in BSD terms |
| 13:39.50 | AStorm | neither is CPU use or time between wakeups |
| 13:39.54 | RST38h | AStorm: BSD basically raises in priority whatever does a lot of IO waits |
| 13:39.58 | AStorm | all of these have been tested in O(1) sched |
| 13:40.01 | AStorm | and failed |
| 13:40.04 | *** part/#maemo b1ackdeath (n=b1ackdea@186.sub-72-119-27.myvzw.com) |
| 13:40.17 | AStorm | that's what Linux old sched did, again :) |
| 13:40.24 | RST38h | AStorm: I dunno what failed in Linux but it works very very well in BSD |
| 13:40.27 | AStorm | and thus it can lock up badly |
| 13:40.39 | AStorm | BSD has a... cleaner design, but it failed still, more rarely |
| 13:40.50 | AStorm | FreeBSD 7 with the new fair sched is good |
| 13:40.51 | RST38h | AStorm: no matter what CPU eating apps you have got, BSD is still very responsive to keyboard, mouse, etc |
| 13:40.56 | AStorm | sometimes |
| 13:41.04 | johnx | RST38h: really, do tell me about your experience running BSD+maemo on a 400MHz ARM |
| 13:41.04 | AStorm | try having an IO bound app in the background |
| 13:41.05 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:41.14 | RST38h | AStorm: Like what |
| 13:41.15 | johnx | cause otherwise its hard to extrapolate |
| 13:41.26 | RST38h | johnx: true |
| 13:41.28 | AStorm | RST38h: like, pipe communication eating CPU too |
| 13:41.44 | RST38h | johnx: But I do have experience running Linux on x86 and it isn't very responsive unfortunately |
| 13:41.45 | AStorm | (browserd :> ) |
| 13:41.55 | RST38h | AStorm: browserd uses shared memory not pipes |
| 13:42.02 | AStorm | hmm, still IO |
| 13:42.06 | RST38h | AStorm: that is why it leaks memory when killed |
| 13:42.13 | AStorm | ouch |
| 13:42.15 | RST38h | Shared memory is not IO |
| 13:42.22 | AStorm | oh well |
| 13:42.26 | AStorm | then use some pipes |
| 13:42.30 | AStorm | e.g. cdrecord |
| 13:42.30 | johnx | RST38h: for example preemptible kernel on a high-end desktop makes little difference but vastly changes behavior on something tablet-class |
| 13:42.43 | AStorm | johnx: for worse or better? |
| 13:42.52 | RST38h | AStorm: I use pipes to send sound data between processes - no effect on interactivity |
| 13:43.05 | AStorm | because it detects bulk IO |
| 13:43.10 | AStorm | try doing bursty IO |
| 13:43.12 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:43.13 | *** join/#maemo Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 13:43.16 | aquatix | RST38h: ah, can that be remedied? |
| 13:43.20 | AStorm | it does indeed fail rarely |
| 13:43.25 | aquatix | that leaking of shared mem of browserd? |
| 13:43.28 | pupnik | hope next tablet has gobs of RAM |
| 13:43.34 | AStorm | fair scheduling is the fix |
| 13:43.44 | AStorm | and FreeBSD 7 has it, so does Linux 2.6.23+ |
| 13:43.45 | RST38h | Shit, AStorm, just what perverse IO should I do to make it hang? =) |
| 13:43.51 | johnx | AStorm: I actually prefer non-preemtible. things tend to stay more balanved, but sound is more likely to skip under exxtreme load |
| 13:43.57 | AStorm | RST38h: try random bursty IO over pipes |
| 13:43.58 | RST38h | pupnik: prolly not |
| 13:44.07 | RST38h | AStorm: But I do not have any apps like that! |
| 13:44.26 | AStorm | hmm, let me think..., |
| 13:44.41 | AStorm | it should be reproducible by, say, switching windows a lot |
| 13:44.42 | AStorm | on X |
| 13:44.43 | lcuk2 | i notice the kb lag when the cpu is generally busy |
| 13:44.48 | RST38h | aquatix: What? browserd? It can't: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3705 |
| 13:44.48 | AStorm | while having sound in the background |
| 13:44.50 | lcuk2 | not just one background task |
| 13:44.54 | lcuk2 | actually heavily workin |
| 13:44.55 | AStorm | it will starve the sound process |
| 13:44.55 | RST38h | aquatix: design decision (tm) |
| 13:45.06 | AStorm | lcuk2: yup |
| 13:45.14 | aquatix | RST38h: yay |
| 13:45.20 | pupnik | RST38h: maybe there's some happy secret tech that gives us lower power ram. or ... more than a couple levels of cache so that less frequently needed ram can be lowww power, but less slow than flash |
| 13:45.21 | RST38h | AStorm: Why do I need to switch windows a lot? =) |
| 13:45.25 | AStorm | please, someone, build a 2.6.27 linux-omap |
| 13:45.36 | AStorm | RST38h: to generate the interactive bursts with high CPU use |
| 13:45.45 | RST38h | pupnik: slow as flash ram = swap :) |
| 13:45.49 | Stskeeps | AStorm: solca has a 2.6.28rc6 with working wifi.. |
| 13:45.56 | Stskeeps | that booted mer, at least |
| 13:45.56 | AStorm | Stskeeps: working X too? |
| 13:45.57 | pupnik | less slow |
| 13:46.02 | Stskeeps | AStorm: think so |
| 13:46.05 | RST38h | AStorm: I do not want to generate interactive bursts. I just want it to be responsive and it is |
| 13:46.06 | AStorm | mmmh |
| 13:46.07 | Stskeeps | AStorm: we have -omapfb xorg now so |
| 13:46.08 | johnx | keyboard lag seems to have a lot of causes |
| 13:46.10 | AStorm | solca: pingy |
| 13:46.16 | AStorm | Stskeeps: can I install just that in diablo? |
| 13:46.18 | lcuk2 | pupnik, whilst you are redesigning hardware, could i have a neural interface |
| 13:46.21 | RST38h | AStorm: And Linux is not, with or without fair scheduler, as it seems =( |
| 13:46.24 | AStorm | w/o mangling the whole system for a while |
| 13:46.29 | Stskeeps | AStorm: no clue. maybe? you need xorg core at least |
| 13:46.38 | AStorm | RST38h: it is now, in 2.6.23 or later |
| 13:46.39 | pupnik | just waxing (wanking) wishful |
| 13:46.39 | Stskeeps | AStorm: also we lack manual updates at the moment, so it's a bit laggy |
| 13:46.45 | RST38h | johnx: I do tend to think that AStorm is right |
| 13:46.48 | AStorm | I've never seen a hang since 2.6.24 |
| 13:46.55 | GeneralAntilles | pupnik, 256MB seems likely. It'll be a fair bit faster than the RAM we've got at the very least, though. |
| 13:47.02 | RST38h | AStorm: What kernel is Ibex using? |
| 13:47.07 | AStorm | Stskeeps: I can change some pkgs |
| 13:47.13 | AStorm | RST38h: Ibex? let me check |
| 13:47.38 | AStorm | 2.6.26 ubuntu... shouldn't have problems |
| 13:47.41 | johnx | RST38h: setting the cpu to max speed does give a slight benefit for usb keyboards, but a low level bt bug would not surprise me either |
| 13:47.46 | AStorm | well, I don't with 2.6.27 |
| 13:48.13 | RST38h | AStorm: Ok. Still gets unresponsive every time it runs a check for updates. |
| 13:48.18 | AStorm | RST38h: oh, 2.6.25 |
| 13:48.24 | lcuk2 | johnx, its most likely interupts crossing due to cpu throttling back and taking longer than realtime |
| 13:48.25 | AStorm | that has a known sched bug :> |
| 13:48.39 | RST38h | AStorm: But you said anything >2.6.23 is ok? |
| 13:48.42 | lcuk2 | which may explain why on performance it appears less susceptable |
| 13:48.49 | AStorm | RST38h: most, excluding bugs |
| 13:48.50 | aquatix | ibex does 2.6.27 iirc |
| 13:48.54 | pupnik | the only thang that hurts is the demands of websites GeneralAntilles - and considering they can bog down my P3 boxes quite nicely... it's hard to see much hope on that front |
| 13:48.54 | RST38h | umgh |
| 13:48.59 | AStorm | aquatix: now? it's changing all the time |
| 13:49.02 | RST38h | remembers installing 2.6.29 btw |
| 13:49.02 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:49.09 | AStorm | 2.6.29 doesn't exist yet |
| 13:49.10 | RST38h | Just recently |
| 13:49.12 | johnx | lcuk2: in the usb kb case I actually think it really is the scaling not kicking in quickly enough |
| 13:49.19 | RST38h | Ok, then it is a false memory |
| 13:49.27 | pupnik | from future time! |
| 13:49.34 | RST38h | crystal balls... |
| 13:49.42 | AStorm | latest is 2.6.28-rc8 |
| 13:49.55 | johnx | RST38h: crystal balls? ouch |
| 13:49.56 | RST38h | can't check, usin work laptop |
| 13:49.59 | lcuk2 | johnx, yeah sounds about right, so whatever action is occuring in the background is going too slowly |
| 13:50.05 | RST38h | johnx: fragile, yes |
| 13:50.07 | lcuk2 | RST38h, you run extremely busy processes - do you notice a noticable frame twitch occuring about once every 1/3 second |
| 13:50.10 | AStorm | Stskeeps: so, again, will it be possible to install the few xorg packages into diablo w/o breaking it? |
| 13:50.22 | RST38h | lcuk: nothing like that |
| 13:50.23 | Stskeeps | AStorm: i have no clue. maybe? |
| 13:50.31 | AStorm | hmm, not very reassuring |
| 13:50.33 | RST38h | lcuk: in Maemo? |
| 13:50.40 | lcuk2 | rst i can almost time it by it - yeah |
| 13:50.51 | aquatix | linux kernel 2.6.27.9.13 |
| 13:50.58 | Stskeeps | AStorm: that's why i prefer things as mer, it's more predictable what would happen |
| 13:51.00 | aquatix | that's the one in intrepid now :) |
| 13:51.05 | RST38h | lcuk: I think I know what it is |
| 13:51.09 | johnx | not without a bit of fun repackaging |
| 13:51.17 | AStorm | Stskeeps: more predictable it would fail and lack features? no thanks |
| 13:51.18 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:51.18 | RST38h | aquatix: Now I know where "9" in my memory came from |
| 13:51.22 | lcuk2 | ive always put it down to an interupt occuring during frame transfer - it got slightly less in diablo, but still there |
| 13:51.37 | RST38h | lcuk: You are using hw scaling right? |
| 13:51.38 | AStorm | lcuk2: so, you want an rt kernel? |
| 13:51.42 | aquatix | RST38h: yep |
| 13:51.42 | lcuk2 | Stskeeps, give warning the meeting is gonna start later ill sit in :) |
| 13:51.53 | Stskeeps | AStorm: more along lines "so, we're building a xorg driver, let's install it and point xorg.conf to it" |
| 13:51.54 | *** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-15-198.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net) |
| 13:51.56 | AStorm | we could have that Ingo's patch |
| 13:51.59 | Stskeeps | if it fails, it fails |
| 13:52.05 | lcuk2 | AStorm, doesnt matter, its just noticable because i run on the ragged edge with liqbase :) |
| 13:52.07 | AStorm | Stskeeps: meh |
| 13:52.26 | AStorm | well, that rt patch should be nice and stable |
| 13:52.27 | AStorm | esp. on armel |
| 13:52.31 | lcuk2 | thinks he has worked around the locking up issue |
| 13:52.37 | RST38h | lcuk: This glitch comes either from yourself not waiting for the previous screen transfer to finish or from somebody else cutting in |
| 13:52.42 | AStorm | and improve latency too |
| 13:52.57 | AStorm | RST38h: somebody else most likely |
| 13:53.15 | lcuk2 | RST38h, sounds likely, but i am waiting - the shmupdate command has a flag to raise an x event when complete and i do nothing with the data until i get that event |
| 13:53.16 | RST38h | AStorm: That would actually only happen if the desktop changes |
| 13:53.36 | RST38h | AStorm: maybe he is running some busy applets? |
| 13:53.39 | lcuk2 | i know what tearing loioks like and its not coming from my side |
| 13:53.49 | lcuk2 | it could be my clock |
| 13:53.56 | lcuk2 | not busy but has to show right time |
| 13:54.04 | AStorm | hm |
| 13:54.10 | lcuk2 | but i thought if it was ocluded by another window no update would go through |
| 13:54.12 | RST38h | lcuk: If you cut into your own transfer (previous one), it will not look like tearing on the tablet |
| 13:54.30 | RST38h | lcuk: It will look more like a bit of flicker or even a little snow |
| 13:54.33 | AStorm | maybe it's due to not being vsynced? |
| 13:54.35 | lcuk2 | if i cut into my own transfer i screw it up and it looks bad |
| 13:54.37 | lcuk2 | this is not that |
| 13:54.56 | lcuk2 | its just a slight stutter |
| 13:54.56 | AStorm | btw, any liqbase updates recently? |
| 13:55.33 | lcuk2 | heh yeah loads, but nothing for you lot - i am rebuilding the ui framework :$ |
| 13:55.58 | lcuk2 | shouldnt be long now - each widget/screen has to be completely independent of rotation location and scaling |
| 13:56.15 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:56.17 | lcuk2 | it was getting hard to do things because each module expected a full screen |
| 13:56.33 | lcuk2 | and there was a lot of stuff i wanted to do within a single cell on the menus |
| 13:56.58 | *** join/#maemo mgedmin (n=mg@office.pov.lt) |
| 13:57.02 | lcuk2 | its also been a chance to boil down what i have and make sure its documented and clean and everything works the same |
| 13:57.21 | *** join/#maemo _acyd_ (n=acydlord@97-117-188-53.phnx.qwest.net) |
| 13:57.43 | lcuk2 | should be out of the way as soon as i get some dev time :) |
| 13:57.48 | AStorm | lcuk2: s/the same/better/ |
| 13:57.48 | Stskeeps | http://www.amazon.com/Peek-Mobile-E-mail-Device-Cherry/dp/B001FC165A/ref=pe_28490_10889280_as_txt_1/ <- heh |
| 13:57.55 | AStorm | e.g. not broken screen updates in fbreader |
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| 13:58.44 | AStorm | you did that "cutting in" thing there |
| 13:58.51 | lcuk2 | astorm, yes there is a lot inside liqbase which works, theres also an awful lot of crufty test code which has to go |
| 13:58.51 | AStorm | looks like a bit of garbage showing |
| 13:58.54 | AStorm | :) |
| 13:59.06 | RST38h | Still nobody with DirectFB experience? |
| 13:59.07 | lcuk2 | cutting in? |
| 13:59.08 | johnx | heads off for the night, will try to do *something* with mer tomorrow if circumstances permit |
| 13:59.19 | AStorm | lcuk2: cutting into your own transfer |
| 13:59.19 | Stskeeps | night |
| 13:59.35 | johnx | 'night Stskeeps |
| 13:59.36 | RST38h | night |
| 13:59.36 | AStorm | solca: again, pingy ping |
| 13:59.44 | AStorm | sleep well |
| 13:59.54 | johnx | 'night all I should say : |
| 14:00.02 | johnx | :) |
| 14:00.06 | lcuk2 | on which bit astorm, there shouldnt be any glitches in the bookreader - very old versions didnt wait for the event, but those shouldv been gone long ago |
| 14:00.09 | lcuk2 | gnite johhnx |
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| 14:00.19 | AStorm | lcuk2: maybe I have an old version |
| 14:00.36 | lcuk2 | possibly, :) 0.1.5 is latest released stable instance |
| 14:00.39 | AStorm | 0.1.5 build 2544 |
| 14:00.46 | lcuk2 | seems like an age ago :) |
| 14:01.00 | AStorm | it does send intermittent garbage in fbreader |
| 14:01.05 | AStorm | also, how do I use the file picker there? |
| 14:01.07 | AStorm | it's so funny ;P |
| 14:01.09 | lcuk2 | in fbreader? |
| 14:01.15 | lcuk2 | yeah i know :$ |
| 14:01.26 | lcuk2 | its one of the things that didnt work too well |
| 14:01.52 | lcuk2 | in principle it works and i use it to select my books, but its not right in other ways |
| 14:02.15 | AStorm | btw, why is drawing so slow? :> |
| 14:02.33 | lcuk2 | drawing what? |
| 14:02.43 | AStorm | I can draw fullscreen at 800x480 and it works smoothly (in pygtk) |
| 14:02.44 | *** join/#maemo harryl (n=kcome@58.217.139.234) |
| 14:02.58 | AStorm | drawing stuff, in liqbase |
| 14:03.03 | lcuk2 | are you using liqbase or something else? |
| 14:03.11 | lcuk2 | are you in performance mode or powersave? |
| 14:03.20 | AStorm | ondemand tuned |
| 14:03.44 | AStorm | still, pygtk is so much faster |
| 14:03.49 | AStorm | (even vs performance) |
| 14:03.52 | lcuk2 | then your tuning is off - the stroke drawing in liqbase for strokes is so optimized it never kicks upto full |
| 14:04.02 | lcuk2 | first ive ever heard of that |
| 14:04.08 | lcuk2 | show me code later :) im at work now |
| 14:04.23 | AStorm | it still looks slow |
| 14:04.24 | RST38h | ASA rules 'Feck' non-offensive! |
| 14:04.36 | RST38h | Rejoice, ye Brits! |
| 14:04.43 | AStorm | the code is client-side drawing with timed FPS blit |
| 14:04.48 | AStorm | of limited area |
| 14:05.12 | AStorm | it does no AA or pressure reading though |
| 14:06.07 | lcuk2 | ive not seen anything run as fast as liqbase on this machine, i'd be happy to see something which does otherwise cos then i can throw away my graphics library and get on with actual work |
| 14:06.16 | AStorm | :> |
| 14:06.32 | AStorm | OK, once I unbreak the code, I'll give it to you |
| 14:06.37 | lcuk2 | speed was of vital importance and you are the first person to say that |
| 14:06.45 | AStorm | it's indeed fairly simple, partial area update |
| 14:07.03 | AStorm | it blits as little as needed, using standard GTK drawing methods |
| 14:07.10 | AStorm | (not cairo) |
| 14:07.25 | lcuk2 | that might work at over 25fps then, but how would it cope with wholescreen (graffiti wallesq) |
| 14:07.40 | AStorm | I'll check |
| 14:07.48 | lcuk2 | errr infact it cant, the screen is limited to 27fps (which is also liqbase max speed for 800*480) |
| 14:07.51 | AStorm | might be slower a bit due to overhead, but not necessarily ;P |
| 14:07.55 | AStorm | hehehe |
| 14:08.02 | AStorm | 27fps you say... so cap it at that |
| 14:08.16 | lcuk2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:08.23 | AStorm | 27 is good enough |
| 14:08.26 | AStorm | almost ;P |
| 14:08.38 | lcuk2 | go for 25 - leave yourself some wiggle |
| 14:09.07 | RST38h | 27fps is not bad |
| 14:09.09 | AStorm | blitting doesn't eat much cpu |
| 14:09.14 | lcuk2 | and also - to test the cpu side of it - try one of the stamps |
| 14:09.24 | RST38h | In the remaining 2 frames you can pass subliminal messages |
| 14:09.30 | AStorm | the trick is to run updates in a thread |
| 14:09.47 | lcuk2 | not really you still have to idle waiting for it to finish |
| 14:09.53 | RST38h | Like "Follow the white rabbit" or "Don't let em take you alive" |
| 14:09.53 | AStorm | why? :P |
| 14:09.57 | lcuk2 | or use double buffering which causes its own problems |
| 14:09.58 | AStorm | it draws to backbuffer |
| 14:10.08 | AStorm | yup, what problems? |
| 14:10.08 | AStorm | memory usage? |
| 14:10.18 | AStorm | partial updates are done away with by locking :) |
| 14:10.35 | AStorm | so while the flip is being done, you can't draw |
| 14:10.44 | AStorm | tripple buffering would fix that |
| 14:10.50 | AStorm | flip is fast though |
| 14:10.54 | lcuk2 | well doublebuffering to a backbuffer means you either need to do a memcopy to send the "live" screen to the lcd or you lose the current live contents of a screen and cannot do manipulation on the previous frames contents |
| 14:11.18 | AStorm | yes, memcopy it is |
| 14:11.25 | AStorm | but it's still faster than I expected |
| 14:11.35 | lcuk2 | ie when drawing a stroke in liqbase - i simply expand upon the current image drawn - i dont draw everything everytime |
| 14:11.53 | AStorm | same here, I only blit the required rectangle |
| 14:12.10 | lcuk2 | but the other tools do a full sketch redraw (they have to) |
| 14:12.33 | AStorm | hm, still, my drawing looks tons faster... brb, fixing it |
| 14:12.44 | lcuk2 | show me in a bit :) back later |
| 14:13.21 | AStorm | it's basic GTK drawing using doublebuffer |
| 14:13.22 | AStorm | :> |
| 14:13.32 | AStorm | (with threaded FPS update) |
| 14:13.47 | AStorm | in Python I might add |
| 14:13.55 | AStorm | which doesn't do threading the best way |
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| 14:15.34 | AStorm | might be that Xomap does something smart |
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| 14:19.04 | lcuk2 | astorm, have a look at performance as the area gets larger, most of the time in liqbase i need wholescreen updates - the stroke drawing algo is the only special case which needs incremental tiny updates |
| 14:19.42 | lcuk2 | closes vnc from this end |
| 14:19.47 | AStorm | lcuk2: I will :) |
| 14:21.55 | *** join/#maemo ttmrichter (n=ttmricht@221.235.60.160) |
| 14:23.58 | solca | AStorm: pong |
| 14:25.40 | RST38h | laid a CVS commit |
| 14:25.54 | RST38h | tea time. |
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| 14:27.56 | *** join/#maemo Pyrhos (n=PyrO@ANantes-158-1-126-3.w90-49.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 14:27.57 | *** join/#maemo king (n=king@unaffiliated/king) |
| 14:28.16 | king | Will Ubuntu UME work on Nokia N810 anytime soon? |
| 14:28.34 | mgedmin | doubts it |
| 14:28.36 | GeneralAntilles | king, Ubuntu UME is targeting x86 machines. |
| 14:28.38 | RST38h | no. |
| 14:28.42 | RST38h | next question? =) |
| 14:28.54 | mgedmin | will nokia release a x86 tablet anytime soon? |
| 14:28.56 | towo | Will Fennec ever run with any performance? ;) |
| 14:28.58 | Stskeeps | you're actually not totally correct.. |
| 14:29.01 | GeneralAntilles | mgedmin, hell no. |
| 14:29.09 | RST38h | towo: yes. next question? |
| 14:29.13 | GeneralAntilles | towo, a2 should have big performance improvements. |
| 14:29.15 | mgedmin | ;) |
| 14:29.36 | RST38h | [don't forget to insert quarters] |
| 14:29.55 | king | I thought that making free software run on different platform was just a matter of compiling it on the target software. Please excuse my ignorance |
| 14:30.02 | towo | Mhm, x86 tablet.. Does it feature a plugin for an external heat sink? |
| 14:30.08 | RST38h | mgedmin: you should not ask me this kind of questions |
| 14:30.14 | GeneralAntilles | towo, no, just a lead-acid battery. |
| 14:30.22 | king | Like I read somewhere that Openmoko people are compiling the Android code on openmoko and after it is complete Android would run on it. |
| 14:30.27 | towo | Yay, car batteries! |
| 14:30.42 | GeneralAntilles | king, part of the problem is that you're not asking the right question. :) |
| 14:30.45 | mgedmin | doubles as a portable seat warmer |
| 14:31.04 | king | GeneralAntilles, I am far from getting your jokes. But I am sure the channel gets it. |
| 14:31.09 | GeneralAntilles | towo, even then it only manages about 7 hour use-time. :P |
| 14:31.19 | towo | hehehe. |
| 14:31.23 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: http://picasaweb.google.com/mail.deweb/MaemoReconstructed#5266329447820882210 |
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| 14:31.37 | *** join/#maemo bergie__ (n=bergie@nemein.suvilahti.nemein.net) |
| 14:31.52 | GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, yes, but does it include Clutter and is it stable with good battery life? :P |
| 14:31.57 | Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: hehe. |
| 14:32.09 | Stskeeps | he asked if it ran, but i guess, it might just be crawling ;) |
| 14:32.38 | GeneralAntilles | king, hey, just trying to help. |
| 14:32.50 | GeneralAntilles | hurls the question forcibly at Stskeeps. |
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| 14:33.29 | king | Can I run php code on Nokia N810? Does the Apache port have the php-modules? Or is the device simply under powered to handle all that. Webservers can run off pretty cheap hardware. So that shouldn't be an issue. |
| 14:33.30 | towo | Ooooh, clutter. |
| 14:33.54 | Stskeeps | king: yes, UME runs but is not very useful or power saving. no, i'm not going to encourage ubuntu with gnome ui as itself on a tablet, or UME |
| 14:34.04 | Stskeeps | it crawls, rather than runs |
| 14:34.25 | king | I thought the whole point of UME was to make them run on similarly speced hardware. |
| 14:34.25 | Stskeeps | king: and yes, i think you can run apache, there's a thread on iTT. If nothing else, Mer will. :P |
| 14:34.30 | towo | When I was still planning to get a Thinkpad tablet soonish, I was considering hacking together a hildon desktop. |
| 14:34.47 | Stskeeps | towo: help with Mer instead.. i386 port is one of the targets |
| 14:34.52 | Stskeeps | hildon is quite portable |
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| 14:35.19 | GeneralAntilles | king, x86 and ARM aren't remotely similar. |
| 14:35.39 | Stskeeps | king: and UME was based on moblin, which .. was made by intel, see where i'm going? :P |
| 14:35.47 | towo | Stskeeps: Well, I can't get a 1400 X61 tablet in new anymore, and I'm not even seriously considering paying a ludicrous 1800⬠for a X200 tablet... |
| 14:35.47 | GeneralAntilles | The MIDs and UMPCs are in an entirely different power and performance profile than our tablets. |
| 14:36.00 | *** join/#maemo guysoft42 (n=guysoft@89-139-13-4.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 14:37.39 | king | I hope one day I will be able to respond appropriately to all the 'terms' used in your sentences without a second thought. Till then, I guess its just good reading ebooks on my Nokia N810. |
| 14:37.41 | Stskeeps | towo: 400mhz tablets are just fine :P |
| 14:38.11 | RST38h | General: MID definition fits the tablet exactly |
| 14:38.22 | towo | Stskeeps: But I needed some 12" display so that I can get sort of an A4 page on it. ;) |
| 14:38.27 | Stskeeps | hehe |
| 14:38.28 | RST38h | General: MID does not HAVE to be based on x86 |
| 14:38.30 | king | I know about the apache port on nokia n810, does it have the required php-modules to run php or not? |
| 14:38.36 | Stskeeps | king: no clue |
| 14:38.41 | GeneralAntilles | RST38h, "MID" is an Intel marketing term for devices with ~5" screens using Atom processors. |
| 14:38.58 | RST38h | General: Ok, MIDI is an Intel marketing term for internet tblets :) |
| 14:39.20 | RST38h | General: Based on Intel processors of course, or Intel would not have any use for it (compare: NIT) |
| 14:39.22 | king | GeneralAntilles, Which has now been taken over by everyone. So MIDs are like MDAs and PDAs. Hell people even go to buy sony ipods now! |
| 14:39.55 | RST38h | s/MIDI/MID/ |
| 14:40.21 | GeneralAntilles | king, either way, it doesn't change the fact that Ubuntu UME targets x86 machines that are very different from our tablets. |
| 14:41.10 | king | GeneralAntilles, Right. But I think it would be easy to have UME ports like we have Ubuntu ports for x86, amd-64, ppc, etc |
| 14:41.18 | RST38h | no. |
| 14:41.24 | pupnik | btw the acer aspire one intel atom netbook with LED backlight isn't all that impressive for battery life - unless you get the biggest one available |
| 14:41.29 | RST38h | not "easy". requires work. |
| 14:41.34 | GeneralAntilles | king, as RST38, sorry, no. |
| 14:41.50 | GeneralAntilles | king, Nokia has really done quite a lot to make Maemo battery-friendly. |
| 14:42.00 | Blafasel | pupnik: I'm happy with the Samsung NC10 |
| 14:42.23 | king | Thank you people. It's maemo then. Built on top of debian so should be easy to acclimatise. |
| 14:42.35 | Stskeeps | yeah.. |
| 14:42.35 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 14:42.44 | Stskeeps | goes back to his HCI handin. |
| 14:43.14 | RST38h | kindly suggests any self-respecting netbook owner get a proper subnotebook instead =) |
| 14:43.18 | *** part/#maemo king (n=king@unaffiliated/king) |
| 14:43.39 | Blafasel | RST38h: Pff.. ;) |
| 14:43.53 | *** join/#maemo booiiing (n=[booiiin@e180023092.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:44.04 | RST38h | what? same weight, bigger screen, thinner package, same battery life, way better performance |
| 14:44.35 | Blafasel | Price? |
| 14:45.30 | Blafasel | I don't know what you're doing on a small device that needs a lot of performance (or more than the Atom delivers). It's probably a different usecase then. |
| 14:46.15 | *** join/#maemo ron1n (n=ron1n@208.253.111.18) |
| 14:46.16 | florian | RST38h: hehe... quite true - for daily work at least. I just bought a proper subnotebook |
| 14:47.09 | jagernot | yeah im very impressed with maemo battery friendliness too |
| 14:47.28 | RST38h | Blafasel: $1200..$2500 |
| 14:47.57 | RST38h | Blafasel: What am I doing? Compiling stuff. Emulating stuff. Watching movies. |
| 14:48.08 | RST38h | Creating UI artwork. |
| 14:48.11 | Blafasel | Compared to 400-500 for this one. I'm poor ;) And watching movies is not an issue ;) |
| 14:48.33 | RST38h | Blafasel: It is a work tool I buy once every 3 years or so |
| 14:48.37 | Blafasel | UI on a subnotebook? Okay. I'd say for art stuff even that is too limited (screen size), but I suck at that anyway. |
| 14:48.43 | Stskeeps | wouldn't mind a dvi plugout on tablet, and then just plug into a usb hub, keyboard |
| 14:48.44 | RST38h | even writes computers off taxes |
| 14:48.46 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 14:49.13 | RST38h | Blafasel: Well, I do not have any artists working for me and someone has to do it :) |
| 14:50.01 | Blafasel | Hehe.. Unfortunately. |
| 14:50.09 | *** join/#maemo tchan (n=tchan@c-67-173-9-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 14:50.50 | AStorm | RST38h: no other life? :P |
| 14:51.20 | *** join/#maemo booiiing (n=[booiiin@e180023092.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 14:53.25 | RST38h | AStorm: Mmm...not entirely, but my personal stuff and my public stuff are kept separate |
| 14:55.45 | *** join/#maemo booiiing (n=[booiiin@e180023092.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 15:06.55 | *** join/#maemo povbot (n=supybot@office.pov.lt) |
| 15:07.09 | *** join/#maemo aloisiojr (n=aloisio@200.184.118.130) |
| 15:07.14 | *** join/#maemo matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com) |
| 15:07.27 | *** join/#maemo phsiao (n=phsiao@146.115.38.3) |
| 15:14.59 | *** join/#maemo aantn (n=natan@bzq-79-183-100-73.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 15:15.03 | *** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-15-198.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net) |
| 15:23.12 | Meiz_n810 | hmm...i'm gonna try maemo chroot in Mer :P |
| 15:23.18 | Stskeeps | hehe |
| 15:23.29 | Stskeeps | mount --bind /tmp /chroot/tmp |
| 15:23.30 | Stskeeps | hint |
| 15:23.30 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 15:23.41 | Meiz_n810 | thanks |
| 15:23.43 | Meiz_n810 | microb vs. midori |
| 15:23.47 | Meiz_n810 | :P |
| 15:24.02 | Stskeeps | be aware there might need a browserd running so |
| 15:24.14 | *** join/#maemo qwerty12 (n=faheem@78-86-35-231.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 15:24.15 | Meiz_n810 | now, it's a good time to take video from Mer :P |
| 15:24.16 | Stskeeps | try other apps first |
| 15:24.17 | Stskeeps | hehe |
| 15:24.24 | Meiz_n810 | k |
| 15:24.58 | Meiz_n810 | microb worked in hasty-chroot, when i was playing with UME |
| 15:25.03 | Stskeeps | k |
| 15:25.25 | *** join/#maemo Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 15:27.30 | Stskeeps | Meizirkki: so, has your parents admitted they think you're insane yet? ;) |
| 15:27.51 | Meizirkki | couple of times... |
| 15:27.53 | Meizirkki | :P |
| 15:27.58 | *** join/#maemo fiferboy (n=quassel@216.185.81.34) |
| 15:27.59 | r2d2rogers | Good morning |
| 15:28.18 | Stskeeps | morning r2d2rogers |
| 15:28.52 | r2d2rogers | I didn't get mufh further last night |
| 15:29.09 | Stskeeps | hehe.. i woke up and looked at tablet, that was when i answered you |
| 15:29.14 | r2d2rogers | cool |
| 15:29.24 | r2d2rogers | I was surprised to see you on... |
| 15:29.28 | *** join/#maemo ron1n (n=ron1n@208.253.111.18) |
| 15:29.29 | r2d2rogers | what time zone are you in? |
| 15:29.35 | Stskeeps | .dk, GMT+1 |
| 15:29.51 | Meizirkki | Stskeeps: what whas the dhcp command that worked yesterday? |
| 15:29.57 | Stskeeps | Meizirkki: dhclient wlan0 |
| 15:30.01 | Meizirkki | s/whas/was |
| 15:30.09 | Stskeeps | or udhcpc -i wlan0 |
| 15:30.13 | Meizirkki | thanks |
| 15:30.46 | r2d2rogers | so how do I figure out if udev is running? |
| 15:30.55 | Stskeeps | ps aux :P |
| 15:31.19 | Meizirkki | i tried powerlaunch at morning but it did not start |
| 15:31.23 | Stskeeps | yeah |
| 15:31.26 | Stskeeps | it needs alteration |
| 15:31.28 | Meizirkki | installed one in extras-devel |
| 15:31.28 | r2d2rogers | I'm not getting to an useable shell? |
| 15:31.32 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: true |
| 15:31.52 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: give me a couple of minutes to ponder that one |
| 15:31.56 | r2d2rogers | wilco |
| 15:32.06 | Stskeeps | in the meanwhile, give me a pastebin of ls -l /etc/rcS.d |
| 15:35.10 | r2d2rogers | Stskeeps: http://pastebin.ca/1282699 |
| 15:36.05 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (n=Thomas_P@p57A14FD6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:36.33 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: could you add a swap line to /etc/fstab per chance, just so we're sure it's not ram it's running out of? |
| 15:37.06 | r2d2rogers | can do |
| 15:37.26 | r2d2rogers | also, cat of init.d/udev http://pastebin.ca/1282701 did I comment out the right part? |
| 15:38.05 | Stskeeps | what version does 770s run again? |
| 15:38.22 | r2d2rogers | kernel verson? |
| 15:38.25 | Stskeeps | yeah |
| 15:39.04 | r2d2rogers | 2.6.18 |
| 15:39.11 | r2d2rogers | running fanoush's kernel |
| 15:39.14 | Stskeeps | k |
| 15:40.07 | *** part/#maemo thopiekar (n=Thomas_P@p57A14FD6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:41.38 | r2d2rogers | hmm |
| 15:41.55 | r2d2rogers | what's the extra column in the fstab? |
| 15:42.01 | r2d2rogers | a label? |
| 15:42.38 | Stskeeps | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:42.39 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 15:42.52 | r2d2rogers | example: proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 |
| 15:43.12 | r2d2rogers | k I have the same as that in |
| 15:43.17 | Stskeeps | k |
| 15:43.26 | Stskeeps | # device name mount point fs-type options dump-freq pass-num |
| 15:44.17 | r2d2rogers | sorry, the fs-type being proc and rootfs threw me off |
| 15:44.31 | Stskeeps | hehe, proc is a fs ;) |
| 15:44.36 | r2d2rogers | yup |
| 15:44.40 | r2d2rogers | but rootfs? |
| 15:44.50 | Stskeeps | there's some point that, can't remember which |
| 15:44.50 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 15:45.37 | r2d2rogers | boot attempt 7 or 8 |
| 15:45.40 | Stskeeps | k |
| 15:46.09 | r2d2rogers | console looks the same |
| 15:46.22 | Stskeeps | last 3 lines are? (and you select console mode i presume?) |
| 15:46.36 | r2d2rogers | yes I did |
| 15:46.45 | r2d2rogers | last three lines are unchanged |
| 15:47.17 | r2d2rogers | same behavior, only response is to the menu key |
| 15:47.50 | r2d2rogers | and it didn't stop at the console long enough to retype them |
| 15:49.08 | r2d2rogers | reboot to flash to check logs |
| 17:15.58 | *** join/#maemo infobot (i=ibot@rikers.org) |
| 17:15.58 | *** topic/#maemo is http://maemo.org | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/ |
| 17:16.49 | RST38h | I am Mr Ming Yang,i have an obscured busines suggestion for you." |
| 17:17.31 | RST38h | ~kill Mr Ming Yang |
| 17:17.32 | infobot | ACTION shoots a excited quark gun at Mr Ming Yang |
| 17:17.58 | *** join/#maemo Stskeepz (n=chobits@84.238.11.16) |
| 17:18.06 | *** join/#maemo eichi (n=eichi@vpn2772.extern.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 17:18.12 | qwerty12 | RST38h, I am Mr Ming Yang. |
| 17:18.20 | qwerty12 | I am offended that you tried to kill me. |
| 17:18.35 | qwerty12 | Or rather hired an assassin :P |
| 17:18.51 | mgedmin | hired? I saw no mention of price |
| 17:18.54 | mgedmin | infobot volunteered |
| 17:19.02 | qwerty12 | ~$100 |
| 17:19.03 | infobot | ACTION gives qwerty12 full service! |
| 17:19.21 | RST38h | kills Mr Ming Yang for the second time |
| 17:22.13 | *** join/#maemo Stskeeps (n=chobits@84.238.11.16) |
| 17:22.49 | *** join/#maemo sergio_ (n=sergio@fanzine.igalia.com) |
| 17:23.24 | *** join/#maemo fab__ (n=bellet@bellet.info) |
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| 17:25.45 | *** join/#maemo eichi (n=eichi@vpn2772.extern.uni-tuebingen.de) |
| 17:25.47 | r2d2rogers | Stskeeps: killed and reran hildon-desktop and it's taking taps now, but is messed up |
| 17:29.01 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: ok |
| 17:29.08 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: i guess its a bit of progress :P |
| 17:29.28 | *** join/#maemo abinader (n=bruno@189.2.128.130) |
| 17:29.34 | Stskeeps | rm -rf /root/.osso and edit /etc/hildon-desktop/statusbar.conf |
| 17:29.36 | Stskeeps | and remove the applets |
| 17:29.39 | *** join/#maemo guardian (n=guardian@ANantes-252-1-4-246.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 17:29.56 | RST38h | "Chinese researchers inadvertently release IE7 exploit code" |
| 17:30.13 | RST38h | Am I putting quotes at the right place? =) |
| 17:34.58 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: (on the partition, from maemo, i guess) |
| 17:38.13 | *** join/#maemo chmac (n=chmac@200.56.179.245) |
| 17:41.10 | *** join/#maemo StsN800 (n=user@212088073001.static.sonofon.dk) |
| 17:44.30 | r2d2rogers | it's looking more correct now |
| 17:44.43 | r2d2rogers | with the applets responding after a hildon desktop restart |
| 17:44.45 | *** join/#maemo Meiz_n810 (n=roope@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 17:44.54 | r2d2rogers | I can adjust brightness even |
| 17:45.59 | Meiz_n810 | Mer works in 770? :) |
| 17:46.06 | r2d2rogers | what other processed should run for the getting there |
| 17:46.10 | r2d2rogers | err |
| 17:46.12 | r2d2rogers | getting there |
| 17:46.17 | Meiz_n810 | ok |
| 17:46.26 | r2d2rogers | what other processes should be running for the theme stuff? |
| 17:46.43 | r2d2rogers | or what should start before hildon desktop? |
| 17:48.11 | *** join/#maemo lardman (n=simon@78.145.109.248) |
| 17:48.19 | r2d2rogers | rotate even changed the orientation of the d-pad |
| 17:48.26 | r2d2rogers | but X errored out |
| 17:51.08 | *** join/#maemo StsN800 (n=user@212088073001.static.sonofon.dk) |
| 17:51.22 | Meiz_n810 | do you have the start-hildon script? |
| 17:51.26 | *** join/#maemo briglia (n=X@189.2.128.130) |
| 17:51.49 | r2d2rogers | yup |
| 17:51.51 | r2d2rogers | trying it |
| 17:51.52 | StsN800 | brr |
| 17:52.00 | StsN800 | fucking cold |
| 17:52.01 | r2d2rogers | much better |
| 17:52.02 | r2d2rogers | thanks |
| 17:52.15 | Meiz_n810 | boots back to maemo... |
| 17:52.21 | *** part/#maemo Meiz_n810 (n=roope@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 17:52.36 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, background doesnt come naturally btw |
| 17:52.39 | r2d2rogers | looks at start-hildon script errors |
| 17:52.49 | *** join/#maemo Meizirkki (n=Meizirkk@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 17:53.19 | r2d2rogers | so if I get network out through the usb working I can get some of these missing files eh? |
| 17:53.37 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, whats status now? |
| 17:53.40 | Meizirkki | propably |
| 17:53.44 | r2d2rogers | png's for advanced backlight for example |
| 17:53.51 | StsN800 | ah |
| 17:53.58 | r2d2rogers | can restart hildon desktop and get working menus and applets |
| 17:54.07 | r2d2rogers | but it looks raw and unthemed |
| 17:54.12 | StsN800 | interesting |
| 17:54.20 | r2d2rogers | when using the start-hildon script I get the other behavior... |
| 17:54.22 | Meizirkki | i made rc.local to set up wlan for me :P |
| 17:54.30 | StsN800 | try disaable applets |
| 17:54.53 | r2d2rogers | first menu open is blank white box and nothing else responds on the X |
| 17:54.53 | r2d2rogers | k |
| 17:55.46 | r2d2rogers | do comments work in statusbar.conf? |
| 17:56.01 | r2d2rogers | # ? |
| 17:56.19 | Meizirkki | should |
| 17:56.31 | Meizirkki | Midrori video from Mer :P http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2860444474240852735 |
| 17:56.56 | Meizirkki | acid3 :) 100/100 |
| 17:57.48 | r2d2rogers | no applets, same behaviro with start-hildon |
| 17:58.59 | r2d2rogers | running locale-gen |
| 18:02.55 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, was rather about if it boots sanely with rm of .osso and editing statusbar.conf, and rebooting |
| 18:03.09 | r2d2rogers | AHhha |
| 18:03.11 | r2d2rogers | k |
| 18:03.13 | r2d2rogers | will try |
| 18:03.37 | *** join/#maemo Meiz_n810 (n=Meizirkk@dsl-lhtbrasgw2-fe2cf800-231.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 18:03.43 | StsN800 | do this from maemo, in the mer fs |
| 18:04.10 | StsN800 | Meiz_n810, will see video in 30 mins |
| 18:04.18 | Meiz_n810 | k |
| 18:04.35 | StsN800 | on gprs atm:P |
| 18:05.10 | Meiz_n810 | theoretically, would it be possible to use maemos flashplayer in Mer without any hacks? |
| 18:05.27 | Meiz_n810 | Mer uses maemos GTK ? |
| 18:05.38 | StsN800 | yes, except we dont have esd atm |
| 18:05.43 | StsN800 | yes |
| 18:05.53 | Meiz_n810 | the deblet one :P ? |
| 18:05.54 | lardman | could be emulated probably if flash is really wanted |
| 18:06.12 | lardman | shivers at the thought ;) |
| 18:07.17 | StsN800 | lardman, flash worked in deblet so |
| 18:07.31 | lardman | with esd? |
| 18:07.54 | StsN800 | mm |
| 18:08.29 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, may vanish in a bit, gtting on a crowded bus |
| 18:08.34 | lardman | I'm sure it could be wrapped |
| 18:09.12 | lardman | any sqlite experts about? |
| 18:09.59 | *** join/#maemo konttori_ (n=konttori@a88-113-140-230.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 18:10.06 | r2d2rogers | StsN800: cool |
| 18:10.15 | r2d2rogers | 6 year old wanting to play too |
| 18:10.40 | *** join/#maemo Pebby (n=PebbyWeb@c-24-5-47-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 18:11.10 | StsN800 | next interface paradigm. glove friendly interface |
| 18:11.50 | r2d2rogers | tips in the gloves |
| 18:11.53 | lardman | StsN800: thought-interface! |
| 18:12.09 | qwerty12 | Meiz_n810, Maemo XChat compiled fine in Mer i386 chroot, all I did was run autorun.sh before configure in debian/rules |
| 18:13.06 | r2d2rogers | pretty, does nothing to taps |
| 18:13.26 | r2d2rogers | text labels are missing though? |
| 18:13.36 | r2d2rogers | I did get the locale-gen to finish |
| 18:13.59 | AStorm | StsN800: for that, we'd need a large screen |
| 18:14.09 | AStorm | and it's overkill anyway |
| 18:14.40 | AStorm | now, thought-driven is almost feasible |
| 18:14.43 | AStorm | :> |
| 18:15.14 | *** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-15-198.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net) |
| 18:15.19 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, but no applets right? |
| 18:15.26 | r2d2rogers | right |
| 18:16.29 | StsN800 | weird |
| 18:16.47 | r2d2rogers | I don't think it was the applets |
| 18:16.54 | lcuk2 | sets tripwires around which drop xmas goodies on peoples heads |
| 18:17.51 | StsN800 | xorg log when taps dont work could be nice |
| 18:18.24 | r2d2rogers | yup |
| 18:19.14 | r2d2rogers | what confuses me is that I can get a ugly but responsive version by running hildon-desktop.launch |
| 18:19.20 | StsN800 | how was responsiveness when it was ugly? |
| 18:19.25 | r2d2rogers | great |
| 18:19.29 | r2d2rogers | quick |
| 18:19.55 | r2d2rogers | could play with setting background color and set birghtness and all |
| 18:19.55 | lcuk | lardman, whats your db boggle, perhaps a bit of convo can cure it |
| 18:20.04 | *** join/#maemo gentooer (n=asdfsf@ool-44c0eaf5.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 18:20.09 | StsN800 | compared to os2008he |
| 18:20.09 | StsN800 | ? |
| 18:20.19 | r2d2rogers | I have that loaded with screenlets |
| 18:20.25 | r2d2rogers | but comparable if not faser |
| 18:20.28 | r2d2rogers | faster |
| 18:20.37 | lcuk | r2d2rogers, whats up with liqbase on device |
| 18:20.42 | lcuk | on mer * |
| 18:20.44 | lcuk | send me the log |
| 18:20.48 | r2d2rogers | haven't tried yet |
| 18:20.50 | StsN800 | k |
| 18:21.02 | lcuk | <r2d2rogers> got a chance to play with liqbase on a 800 and wished I could run that too |
| 18:21.08 | r2d2rogers | lcuk: will be glad to when we get hildon sorted |
| 18:21.47 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, its good progress at least |
| 18:21.54 | r2d2rogers | StsN800: I agree |
| 18:22.05 | lcuk | its bloody good progress, im seeing an OS forming |
| 18:22.20 | r2d2rogers | lcuk: I'm on a 770 with mer |
| 18:22.42 | lardman | lcuk: I was wondering what;s not allowed in table names? |
| 18:22.55 | r2d2rogers | StsN800: I think I need to pastebin the erros from hildon-desktop.launch and start-hildon for you |
| 18:23.12 | lcuk | lardman, just stick to normal variable identifier type names and stay away from normal sql keywords? |
| 18:23.20 | lcuk | ahhhh r2d2rogers |
| 18:23.25 | StsN800 | r2d2rogers, k |
| 18:24.06 | lardman | lcuk: so no punctuation, spaces, etc presumably |
| 18:24.25 | lardman | though underscores are allowed I see? |
| 18:24.30 | *** join/#maemo ron1n (n=ron1n@208.253.111.18) |
| 18:24.57 | lcuk | yeah - most sql will kinda sorta accept it, but its bad form and leads to heartache - ive never had a problem using sensible code type variable names in tables and fields |
| 18:25.19 | lardman | cool |
| 18:25.20 | lcuk | until im told otherwise yeah |
| 18:25.21 | lardman | thanks |
| 18:25.29 | lcuk | np :) |
| 18:25.59 | RST38h | underscores are allowed |
| 18:26.16 | RST38h | do protect against users entering single quotes (') |
| 18:26.37 | lcuk | rst, sqlite has query building printf specifically for that |
| 18:26.47 | RST38h | ah |
| 18:27.01 | lcuk | you use something like %q just like you use %s in normal printf and it does it for you |
| 18:27.17 | lardman | ok |
| 18:27.21 | lcuk | but theres other higher level fns available for command objects |
| 18:27.35 | lardman | the %q adds the single quotes around strings? |
| 18:27.50 | lcuk | i dunno i closed the page from last night |
| 18:27.55 | lardman | :) |
| 18:28.01 | lardman | no worries I can find it again :) |
| 18:28.03 | lcuk | i think you put the boundary outside ones yourself in the pattern |
| 18:28.46 | lcuk | printf("select * from users where name='%q'",lardman.name); reads as i would expect it to |
| 18:29.00 | lardman | ok, so %q does what? |
| 18:29.16 | lardman | stops ' from appearing? |
| 18:29.24 | lcuk | ensures ' is quoted correctly |
| 18:29.36 | lardman | ah I see |
| 18:29.40 | lcuk | doesnt stop it from being used, just makes sure this doesnt happen: |
| 18:29.51 | lcuk | http://xkcd.com/327/ |
| 18:30.25 | disco_stu | lcuk: thats a good one |
| 18:30.37 | lcuk | oooh 2 more downloads and i am 1337 :D |
| 18:31.01 | lcuk | need a few more votes though :P http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/liqbase/ ;) |
| 18:31.31 | r2d2rogers | Stskeeps: hildon-desktop.launch http://pastebin.ca/1282848 |
| 18:31.42 | timeless | hello world |
| 18:31.49 | timeless | anyone here intimately familiar w/ apt? |
| 18:32.01 | *** join/#maemo bilboed (n=bilboed@89.129.139.125) |
| 18:32.23 | lcuk | hiya timeless, according to your boolean logic i dont think thats physically possible |
| 18:32.41 | timeless | lcuk: alright |
| 18:32.49 | timeless | i'm looking for someone who can tell me what Apt::System should look like |
| 18:32.56 | timeless | how about that? :) |
| 18:33.24 | lcuk | actually.... http://idle.slashdot.org/idle/08/12/11/0348217.shtml |
| 18:33.44 | timeless | yeah, i saw that earlier |
| 18:33.58 | r2d2rogers | was able to set a background |
| 18:34.03 | r2d2rogers | and background color |
| 18:34.05 | timeless | but seriously, i need to know what Apt::System should look like |
| 18:35.27 | lcuk | dunno |
| 18:35.53 | lcuk | disco_stu, xkcd has a sketch for pretty much every part of life, its like its own rule34 |
| 18:36.11 | disco_stu | yeah |
| 18:37.41 | r2d2rogers | Stskeeps: start-hildon http://pastebin.ca/1282850 |
| 18:38.23 | AStorm | lcuk: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ballmer_peak.png <- like this? :P |
| 18:38.36 | lcuk | thats TRUE! |
| 18:38.54 | lcuk | but for me and lardman its a bit wibbly and changes day to day |
| 18:38.59 | AStorm | yup |
| 18:39.07 | AStorm | but indeed requires calibration |
| 18:39.15 | AStorm | and for prolonged use, vitamin C and water :P |
| 18:39.30 | AStorm | the peak is actually a bit wider |
| 18:39.30 | lcuk | heh yeah |
| 18:48.31 | Stskeeps | r2d2rogers: hildon-launch doesnt start sapwood, matchbox and such |
| 18:48.40 | r2d2rogers | yeah |
| 18:48.46 | r2d2rogers | I think they were recycled |
| 18:49.02 | r2d2rogers | or still there when I just killed hildon-desktop |
| 18:49.04 | *** join/#maemo abinader (n=bruno@189.2.128.130) |
| 18:49.06 | Stskeeps | mm |
| 18:49.23 | r2d2rogers | sapwood is taking 98.5% of CPU right now according to top |
| 18:49.28 | Stskeeps | ick :P |
| 18:49.36 | Stskeeps | it's weird it works second time but not first |
| 18:50.01 | r2d2rogers | yeah we had problems demo'ing Ocra for that reason before |
| 18:50.11 | Stskeeps | ocra? |
| 18:50.18 | Meiz_n810 | Stskeeps: saw the video? :P |
| 18:50.22 | Stskeeps | lookin |
| 18:50.32 | *** join/#maemo birunko (n=birunko@200.184.118.130) |
| 18:51.58 | madhav | lcuk: have u tried to build/run clutter on maemo..? |
| 18:52.20 | Stskeeps | madhav: we don't have opengl .. :P |
| 18:52.35 | AStorm | there's mesa now |
| 18:52.44 | AStorm | supposedly in fremantle |
| 18:52.56 | Stskeeps | yeah, but mesa's mesa |
| 18:53.04 | AStorm | slow, very |
| 18:54.08 | Stskeeps | did everyone see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2860444474240852735&ei=GlxBSdmQN4qGiQLr2e38Cw&q=n810+Mer ? |
| 18:54.30 | AStorm | Stskeeps: it'll take a while |
| 18:54.40 | Stskeeps | true, 64kb? |
| 18:54.50 | Stskeeps | or just -everyone-? ;) |
| 18:54.50 | *** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-15-198.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net) |
| 18:55.38 | lardman | lcuk: lol |
| 18:56.18 | madhav | StsKeeps: i think mesa/glutes is there right? |
| 18:56.39 | Stskeeps | Meiz_n810: thumbs up on the video, looks speedy |
| 18:56.55 | AStorm | Stskeeps: hildonize menu plz |
| 18:57.00 | Stskeeps | AStorm: yes, obviously |
| 18:57.01 | AStorm | :) |
| 18:57.25 | AStorm | btw, does it have kinetic scrolling? |
| 18:57.27 | Meiz_n810 | Stskeeps: it is speedy, think about my connection 40-56kb/s |
| 18:57.45 | *** join/#maemo chelli (n=chelli@p54B86B39.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:57.53 | madhav | StsKeeps: http://unrealvoodoo.org/hiteck/blog/graphics/opengl-es-for-maemo/ |
| 18:58.29 | Stskeeps | madhav: just call me Sts |
| 18:58.32 | Meiz_n810 | thinks someone will kick his ass, if he naggs more about his slow connection |
| 18:59.47 | Stskeeps | madhav: software rendering |
| 18:59.49 | Meiz_n810 | madhav: interesting :P |
| 18:59.53 | Meiz_n810 | i'll try |
| 19:00.07 | Meiz_n810 | ah |
| 19:00.15 | Meiz_n810 | ptyhon opengl |
| 19:00.27 | Meiz_n810 | gears are not really fash |
| 19:00.35 | Meiz_n810 | s/fash/fast/ |
| 19:00.55 | madhav | Sts: so maemo has not h/w rendering.. |
| 19:01.13 | madhav | what abt VFP? |
| 19:01.57 | AStorm | Stskeeps: now build Firefox 3.1b2 and compare |
| 19:02.07 | AStorm | :) |
| 19:02.17 | AStorm | madhav: n8x0 should have, but we're missing a driver |
| 19:02.26 | AStorm | VFP is FPU... |
| 19:02.33 | madhav | yes.. |
| 19:03.06 | AStorm | so what, it's still slow |
| 19:03.16 | AStorm | we would need that PowerVR driver |
| 19:04.02 | madhav | powerVR driver..? |
| 19:04.44 | AStorm | yes, n8x0 have a PowerVR chip inside |
| 19:04.58 | AStorm | the same as in n96 afaicr |
| 19:05.25 | madhav | thats cool... |
| 19:05.42 | AStorm | except we have no driver, and especially no opensource driver |
| 19:06.22 | *** join/#maemo qwerty12_N800 (n=faheem@78-86-35-231.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 19:07.49 | timeless | sighs |
| 19:07.53 | timeless | hates it when apt crashes |
| 19:08.00 | AStorm | apt crashes? omg |
| 19:08.12 | AStorm | what did you do to it? |
| 19:08.27 | timeless | iirc it doesn't like an unupdated config |
| 19:08.40 | timeless | and i never remember to do apt-get update before apt-cache search |
| 19:10.49 | lcuk | madhav, i have src copied onto device but its in a backlog at the moment, ive got some ideas re: clutter |
| 19:11.43 | madhav | lcuk: i guess there seems to be no opengl on device.. |
| 19:12.10 | lcuk | thats not my problem, we can get software gl - its having the build tools - i can't run "configure" on any package atm |
| 19:12.30 | timeless | ok, cool |
| 19:13.14 | madhav | lcuk: some ideas related to clutter..? |
| 19:13.59 | lcuk | well i have no real ui framework (i think the one i initially put into liqbase is incomplete and inflexible) so im actively seeking a box manager |
| 19:14.03 | lcuk | why not use clutter... ? |
| 19:14.46 | madhav | it a good idea ..clutter is really gud, simple, modular.. |
| 19:14.48 | lcuk | no need for the full real 3d experience and still render in 2d as i do now, but for managing boxes and overlays and stuff i think it might work |
| 19:15.15 | lcuk | kinda like the southpark type thing - they use 3d engine to produce 2d animation |
| 19:15.33 | lcuk | and i get the bonus of complete speedup later |
| 19:15.47 | lcuk | as i said, just an idea |
| 19:16.14 | madhav | it looks to be a very good idea.. |
| 19:16.38 | madhav | lcuk: have u checked Wayland X server |
| 19:17.09 | lcuk | i need to actually draw onto the xv overlay |
| 19:18.25 | madhav | lcuk: http://groups.google.com/group/wayland-display-server/ |
| 19:19.34 | lcuk | technically i should just drop back and use the existing x11 since its there, but its hacks on hacks - ill take a look at this though its moving away from the current ui directions |
| 19:20.18 | *** join/#maemo florian (n=fuchs@f048225164.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 19:27.53 | *** join/#maemo denny (i=denny@freenode/staff/denny) |
| 19:27.59 | *** join/#maemo x29a (n=x29a@unaffiliated/x29a) |
| 19:31.49 | timeless | ok, problems all done |
| 19:32.01 | timeless | fremantle sdk should be something i could push on monday |
| 19:32.54 | *** join/#maemo yerga (n=yerga@87.223.214.207) |
| 19:36.19 | *** join/#maemo t_s_o (n=tso@44.84-49-128.nextgentel.com) |
| 19:37.10 | Stskeeps | for mxr or in general? :P |
| 19:37.11 | lardman | does searching for NU |
| 19:37.14 | lardman | oops |
| 19:37.24 | lardman | does searching for NULL match any record? |
| 19:37.31 | lardman | in sqlite |
| 19:40.09 | lardman | "select * from my_table where id=1 and name=NULL" for example? |
| 19:40.33 | AStorm | lardman: no, wrong |
| 19:40.37 | AStorm | and name is NULL |
| 19:40.38 | AStorm | :) |
| 19:40.51 | AStorm | nothing can be equal to NULL in SQL |
| 19:41.20 | lardman | no, I really want to not match name in that case |
| 19:41.26 | AStorm | even null is not equal to null |
| 19:41.31 | lardman | hmm |
| 19:41.47 | lcuk | does anyone have a slate tablet knocking around unused and unloved? it could have a nice shiny new home. *smiles sweetly* |
| 19:41.54 | lardman | so I'll have to construct my command column by column, checking to see if each has a value? |
| 19:42.00 | AStorm | lardman: you just want to skip the predicate |
| 19:42.10 | AStorm | select * from my_table where id=1 |
| 19:42.11 | lardman | AStorm: gone above my level there? |
| 19:42.17 | lardman | ah |
| 19:42.20 | AStorm | this will give everything with id=1 |
| 19:42.24 | AStorm | regardless of name |
| 19:42.43 | lardman | well I want to feed a fn a number of pointers to fields, that may or may not be null, then search for those that are not null |
| 19:42.43 | qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, my friend from Nigeria will ship you one with £1,000,000 on top |
| 19:42.57 | lcuk | nice |
| 19:43.24 | AStorm | lardman: probably |
| 19:43.37 | lardman | AStorm: and was hoping that %Q would null out the ones that point to 0 and let me search, rather than having to check manually and construct a command piece by piece |
| 19:46.49 | lcuk | lardman, are you looking to build something like "select * from datarows where upn in (1,3434,2322,12323,2232823)" |
| 19:47.34 | lardman | hmm |
| 19:47.45 | *** join/#maemo qgil (n=qgil@a88-112-27-165.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 19:47.47 | AStorm | qwerty12_N800: I want one, what do I have to do? :P |
| 19:47.53 | AStorm | no, sending money is out of question |
| 19:48.13 | lardman | more like fn(*upn, *title, *price); "select * from table where <any of the above match, but not those that point to NULL> |
| 19:48.28 | lardman | hey qgil |
| 19:48.32 | AStorm | construct piecewise then |
| 19:48.38 | qwerty12_N800 | AStorm, just send him your documents, no money needed :p |
| 19:48.39 | qgil | hi there |
| 19:48.41 | lcuk | yeah i agree with astorm |
| 19:48.41 | lardman | AStorm: ok, thanks |
| 19:48.47 | lardman | cheers chaps |
| 19:48.55 | AStorm | qwerty12_N800: oh, can't |
| 19:48.58 | lcuk | thats a custom filter function and not what the nullable thing is for really |
| 19:48.59 | AStorm | it's illegal here |
| 19:49.06 | qwerty12_N800 | Damn! |
| 19:49.24 | qwerty12_N800 | lobbies for a change in Polish law :P |
| 19:49.54 | lardman | hmm, sounds dubious |
| 19:50.49 | lcuk | hiya qgil, you are becoming quite the regular :D |
| 19:51.34 | qgil | only this week |
| 19:51.47 | qgil | nothing personal but I'm getting screen overdose |
| 19:52.03 | qgil | and my partner starts looking me with mixed attitude |
| 19:52.17 | qgil | :) |
| 19:52.35 | X-Fade | Heh, ssh from your n810 then ;) |
| 19:52.38 | qgil | I'm impressed about the big share Stskeeps & co get for Mer |
| 19:52.39 | X-Fade | Hide it. |
| 19:52.40 | *** join/#maemo thopiekar (n=Thomas_P@p57A14FD6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:52.42 | lcuk | heh, have you found a movie download site yet? |
| 19:52.55 | *** part/#maemo thopiekar (n=Thomas_P@p57A14FD6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:52.55 | qgil | lcuk: nope |
| 19:53.11 | X-Fade | lcuk: It is pretty sad that doing the right thing is too hard. |
| 19:53.17 | lcuk | boo, thats not good - talk it up with people in your place |
| 19:53.36 | lcuk | X-Fade, it will come |
| 19:54.43 | X-Fade | lcuk: Sure, just before the major studios go bankrupt. |
| 19:55.58 | lcuk | some business models will change, and if its what the users want they are the fools to not listen. though whilst we internet folks are loud and vocal we may not actually "get it" ourselves yet |
| 19:56.25 | *** join/#maemo hellwolf (n=hellwolf@a83-132-28-51.cpe.netcabo.pt) |
| 19:56.30 | X-Fade | Still, it is pretty sad that the easiest way to see a movie is to download the torrent. |
| 19:57.30 | lcuk | how do you deal with payment though, serious question for woldwide handling |
| 19:58.02 | X-Fade | No, paypal, CC, whatever. Just pick an amount in local currency and be done with it. |
| 19:58.09 | X-Fade | This isn't rocket science ;) |
| 19:58.27 | lcuk | sure it is - itunes isnt available worldwide |
| 19:58.33 | X-Fade | Something like itunes with drm would be the solution. |
| 19:58.38 | lcuk | but i can buy a movie in any market in the world |
| 19:58.45 | X-Fade | We need to stop deviding sales in regions. |
| 19:58.58 | X-Fade | One region: world. |
| 19:59.03 | X-Fade | Problem solved ;) |
| 19:59.04 | lcuk | i agree, im with you on this - merely being devil |
| 19:59.34 | *** join/#maemo fiferboy (n=quassel@216.185.81.34) |
| 20:00.19 | lcuk | X-Fade, not everyone accepts drm by the way |
| 20:00.54 | X-Fade | Hmm I typed with, but obviously ment without ;) |
| 20:01.35 | lcuk | ok, thats movies sorted |
| 20:01.48 | lcuk | do we do the same with other software? |
| 20:02.14 | *** join/#maemo cowbellemoo (n=cowbelle@207.97.40.1) |
| 20:02.29 | *** join/#maemo zap (n=zap@28.169.249.ozerki.net) |
| 20:05.11 | Stskeeps | qgil: hehe, yeah, maybe a bit unfair share compared to what fremantle will give right now - fremantle is light years ahead, and people probably want to see the UI and hardware, which i'm sure they'll just love. :) |
| 20:05.36 | Stskeeps | the passion people are putting in even rumours about fremantle & hw is impressive |
| 20:07.32 | X-Fade | Stskeeps: It is like a puzzle. Try to find out what your future device will look like by grepping the code ;) |
| 20:07.53 | Stskeeps | X-Fade: yes, we had a kernel code drool-off the other night ;) |
| 20:08.22 | lcuk | yeah x-fade, but by the excitement of these guys if nokia doesnt include a drip-tray for the drool the devices wont last long |
| 20:09.35 | mavhc | waterproof screen protector |
| 20:09.56 | X-Fade | lcuk: Sure, but most people are end-user. And they will not have an opinion about Fremantle until they can load an image on their device. |
| 20:10.10 | X-Fade | So for now it is only cool for the hardcore platform guys. |
| 20:11.01 | qgil | lcuk X-Fade the saddest thing is that I'm not even after the blockbusters and top Holywood sellers |
| 20:11.15 | qgil | since I can get those in the videoclub of the corner |
| 20:11.27 | X-Fade | qgil: Might I suggest the discount dvd box in the stores? :) |
| 20:11.28 | lcuk | yes, the TLAs and code numbers and alphas mean nothing outside |
| 20:12.35 | Stskeeps | Meiz_n810: you should post your video on jaiku too |
| 20:12.36 | qgil | I'm happy paying to watch independent cinema and productions from Iran, South Korea, Argentina, etc etc |
| 20:13.11 | qgil | but there seems to be not a "right" way to do so |
| 20:15.25 | qgil | Stskeeps: "the passion people are putting in even rumours about fremantle & hw is impressive" |
| 20:15.51 | *** join/#maemo benh (n=benh@147.17.168.202-static.velocitynet.com.au) |
| 20:15.52 | qgil | what is impressive is to see that debating about rumours is always more interesting than debating about facts |
| 20:15.56 | Stskeeps | hehe, yeah |
| 20:16.36 | qgil | I'm quite puzzled about the LTE debate in the "Maemo 5 Reveals its Features" thread |
| 20:16.38 | lcuk | heh rumours are good in a way :) |
| 20:17.09 | X-Fade | qgil: I want satellite communications on the tablet after this one. Can you call the design guys for me? |
| 20:17.13 | X-Fade | Thanks. |
| 20:17.25 | Stskeeps | one tablet per child programme, with lte, .. hmm :P |
| 20:17.34 | qgil | post a comment in ITt and they will add it to the roadmap |
| 20:17.49 | X-Fade | heh ;) |
| 20:19.51 | RST38h | moo all |
| 20:20.00 | Stskeeps | moo, RST38h |
| 20:20.03 | lcuk | w000t! can we add a laser for the sat comms? |
| 20:20.16 | RST38h | X-Fade: As long as you are comfortable with a 1m satellite dish... |
| 20:20.30 | qgil | and a battery lasting 2 mins |
| 20:20.43 | RST38h | better yet: screw the satcom, the 3D, the memory, the Linux |
| 20:20.57 | RST38h | Just leave ONE BIG DEADLY FUCKING LASER |
| 20:20.58 | X-Fade | RST38h: No, but a 16GP camera so I can see rocks on the moon, would be nice. |
| 20:21.26 | Stskeeps | RST38h: anti-thief protection? :P |
| 20:21.32 | lcuk | n9000000 now with sharks |
| 20:21.33 | RST38h | X-Fade: With 16GP camera of this size you will mostly see the laws of thermodynamics |
| 20:21.49 | lcuk | qgil, see what you started :P |
| 20:22.08 | qgil | so, basically a Jedi Knight Sword but real one, not just accelerated noise |
| 20:22.25 | lcuk | no, the noise is important |
| 20:22.26 | RST38h | qgil: I would really appreciate a bigger range. |
| 20:22.31 | lcuk | they really make that sound |
| 20:22.39 | RST38h | qgil; At least 10-50 km |
| 20:22.48 | lcuk | for the touchscreen? |
| 20:22.50 | RST38h | noise is not important |
| 20:22.56 | qgil | sure, I'm not dropping the sound, just adding the Real Laser feature |
| 20:23.04 | lcuk | excellent! |
| 20:23.33 | lcuk | tbh, i REALLY wouldn't be surprised that there isnt a prototype somewhere ;) |
| 20:23.57 | qgil | RST38h: I'm sure the N800 camera component can be revamped to allow users making nice sky effects with their thumbs |
| 20:25.08 | lcuk | omg, backwards compatible as well!!! i was sure i would need to buy a new device to get the laser feature :D |
| 20:25.27 | RST38h | qgil: Don't need a camera for that - a decent random number generator will do just as well =) |
| 20:25.49 | lcuk | heh - with the 8x0 camera isnt that the same thing :D |
| 20:27.00 | qgil | RST38h: I mean to put the laser in the place of the camera, keeping the rotation |
| 20:27.53 | RST38h | qgil: Ah, wherever, as long as it can burn through buildings and vaporize vehicles/people |
| 20:27.55 | X-Fade | qgil: As you can see: one new tablet is not enough for everybody. |
| 20:28.00 | X-Fade | We need a complete range. |
| 20:28.16 | lcuk | from small battlefield munition all the way up to deathstar rated |
| 20:28.36 | RST38h | qgil: Seriously though, would appreciate a lot if you found a person inside Nokia responsible for manufacturing of the next tablet and let them know of the glitch list from N810 |
| 20:29.01 | mavhc | speaking of which, is there an astronomy program for maemo? celestia like? |
| 20:29.12 | lcuk | mavhc, i believe there is |
| 20:29.18 | lcuk | i saw something about it |
| 20:29.19 | qgil | I was not joking when I say that there is people scanning and bringing feedback |
| 20:29.27 | RST38h | Cool =) |
| 20:29.31 | qgil | BUT |
| 20:29.34 | lcuk | https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemo-stars/ |
| 20:29.36 | X-Fade | RST38h: The fun we make here is because we are all on the software side. Nothing we can do about the hardware ;) |
| 20:29.46 | qgil | put that thread in the right context |
| 20:29.51 | qgil | - internal testing and feedback |
| 20:30.00 | qgil | - focused groups studies |
| 20:30.01 | RST38h | X-Fade: Ah, I am pretty sure that an internal email to the right person can be of help |
| 20:30.07 | qgil | - returned units |
| 20:30.11 | qgil | - calls to Nokia Care |
| 20:30.21 | X-Fade | Nokia Pilots program? |
| 20:30.25 | qgil | - complaints to Nokia shops or other distributors |
| 20:30.34 | lcuk | qgil, you have said this before, and i think now a lot more useful discussion is boiled down into the wiki, though its still something we need to do more with |
| 20:30.42 | Stskeeps | hehe.. once you have the tablet it's hard to let go of it again :) |
| 20:30.43 | RST38h | X-Fade: There should be people responsible for production quality because those little mechanical/electrical problems increase return rates |
| 20:31.07 | X-Fade | RST38h: Preaching ... choir.. you know.. |
| 20:31.16 | qgil | RST38h: and for this reason there is people responsible for production quality |
| 20:31.43 | X-Fade | RST38h: Did you see that Nokia testing clip? |
| 20:32.05 | RST38h | X-Fade: No, seen links to it, but I rarely watch online videos |
| 20:32.21 | lcuk | ive never seen a problem with hardware actually breaking, but the quality of components chosen in some instances leave something to be desired |
| 20:32.27 | X-Fade | RST38h: Pretty amazing how and what they test.. |
| 20:32.40 | *** join/#maemo Sargun (n=Sargun@atarack/staff/sargun) |
| 20:32.43 | RST38h | lcuk: even the components are not so bad |
| 20:32.43 | *** join/#maemo cyrus__ (n=cyrus@c-71-56-151-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 20:32.57 | lcuk | i mean the units themselves dont seem to break |
| 20:33.01 | RST38h | lcuk: but a few tiny design decisions increase wear and tear |
| 20:33.16 | Stskeeps | is amazed how many times he has dropped his tablet. |
| 20:33.19 | RST38h | X-Fade: This is done in Brazil, right? |
| 20:33.23 | Stskeeps | without consequences |
| 20:33.23 | X-Fade | My only grip with the N810 is that the keys scratch a bit.. |
| 20:33.28 | lcuk | which video? |
| 20:33.28 | cyrus__ | solca - just ran acros your nitdroid project. Awesome work. For my own personal knowledge, since I tried to do a porta while back. Did you just take a base 2.6.28-rc7 kernel and apply the omap patches |
| 20:33.40 | X-Fade | RST38h: No, I've seen a UK institute movie. |
| 20:33.40 | RST38h | X-Fade: Actually, mine is rather about the front panel |
| 20:33.48 | qgil | "few tiny design decisions" when you talk about hardware production of a model already in the streets.... |
| 20:33.50 | RST38h | X-Fade: So far I have only got one key scratched |
| 20:34.13 | RST38h | qgil: but I hope it is still not too late to check for the same problems in the next one =) |
| 20:34.32 | X-Fade | RST38h: bottom 3 rows, from d to l here.. |
| 20:34.35 | X-Fade | All keys |
| 20:34.38 | RST38h | X-Fade: oh shit |
| 20:34.43 | qgil | but you have seen the list of feedback channels listed above |
| 20:34.50 | X-Fade | But I carry it in my pocket all the time ;) |
| 20:34.53 | qgil | and I'm sure there are more |
| 20:34.56 | RST38h | I ended up buying a case where all the keys are behind a sheet of clear plastic |
| 20:34.56 | *** join/#maemo andre___ (n=andre@g224236115.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 20:35.05 | X-Fade | And it is about a year old. And if that is all :D |
| 20:35.12 | lcuk | RST38h, scratches? every device gets scratches |
| 20:35.21 | qgil | I wonder what hardware related issues/opinions can you get in ITt with 5 users agreeing that hasn't been detected before |
| 20:35.23 | RST38h | X-Fade: Is the right side also loose on yours? |
| 20:35.27 | Stskeeps | 's sony ericsson k610i is absolutely scratched. |
| 20:35.34 | Stskeeps | keys + cellphone != good mix |
| 20:35.38 | X-Fade | RST38h: No. |
| 20:35.54 | X-Fade | RST38h: I dropped it multiple times, no problems what so ever. |
| 20:35.55 | ShadowJK_ | What, people keep other stuff in same pocket as their phone? madness |
| 20:36.00 | RST38h | X-Fade: Weird...All the tablets I have seen are loose on the right side |
| 20:36.19 | Stskeeps | ShadowJK_: i've considered to get one of those flat 3g wifi gateways with battery |
| 20:36.21 | lcuk | lol qgil, i bet you missed the guy who almost killed his n810 by leaving it in a bag with a rotting banana :D its endemic you know! |
| 20:36.40 | RST38h | lcuk: So what happened? It ate his banana and got sick? |
| 20:36.40 | Stskeeps | ShadowJK_: and sow it into my jacket and have a charger hanging in my wardrobe. |
| 20:36.45 | lcuk | (serious one that, he was panicking - it had bugs and everything) |
| 20:36.48 | ShadowJK_ | Stskeeps, ... you mean a symbian phone? |
| 20:37.00 | Stskeeps | ShadowJK_: no, some other gadget |
| 20:37.01 | Stskeeps | se |
| 20:37.01 | Stskeeps | c |
| 20:37.04 | qgil | ah, this is why there is that internal research project about unrottable bananas... |
| 20:37.13 | RST38h | [offtopic question: Anyone familiar with DirectFB?] |
| 20:37.22 | ShadowJK_ | Though joikuspot on E70 doesn't seem to know how to do wifi powersaving, so it doubles in pocket as a handwarmer |
| 20:37.30 | lcuk | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23001 |
| 20:37.38 | RST38h | Shadow: No way |
| 20:37.53 | lcuk | he had little insects inside machine |
| 20:37.57 | lcuk | i told him to file bugs :D |
| 20:38.07 | RST38h | Shadow: The thing is so thick and large that heating it whole takes more than the battery can supply =) |
| 20:38.10 | Stskeeps | ShadowJK_: or killing the next generation of nokia users.. |
| 20:38.45 | RST38h | lcuk: Can't it be solved the same way as that bricking problem? By placing tablet into a fridge? =) |
| 20:38.53 | *** part/#maemo cyrus__ (n=cyrus@c-71-56-151-27.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 20:38.55 | ShadowJK_ | Stskeeps, if it goes through my thigh yeah.. |
| 20:39.17 | RST38h | wonders how long will he have to keep his E70 |
| 20:39.19 | Stskeeps | ShadowJK_: http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/09/novatel-mifi-proves-3g-hotspot-and-sexy-can-coexist/ |
| 20:40.04 | Stskeeps | it's that or waiting for next device ;) |
| 20:40.37 | ShadowJK_ | RST38h, the case temp climbs to about 35C for me in EDGE+bluetooth (after, say, hours of continous downloading). Just having it running as AP with no data transfer makes it even hotter, though I haven't measured |
| 20:41.10 | RST38h | Shadow: Ah you download for hours... |
| 20:41.12 | ShadowJK_ | I measured the 35C on keypad, iirc |
| 20:41.22 | qgil | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23001 the first post is like a nuromantic version of those stories of Madonnas crying blood tears... |
| 20:41.24 | RST38h | That would probably do some unpleasant wonders to my phone bill |
| 20:41.34 | ShadowJK_ | RST38h, EDGE is kinda high-latency, it's not good for much else ;P |
| 20:42.28 | RST38h | qgil: I bet either on thermal compound or on lubricant used in the slider mechanism |
| 20:42.40 | Stskeeps | qgil: the best post is the bug further down |
| 20:43.24 | RST38h | qgil: Other alternatives are 1) tablet pissed itself (unlikely) or 2) it is his own bodily fluids (eek!) |
| 20:43.42 | Stskeeps | melted sd card cos of the nuclear reactor inside the tablets.. |
| 20:44.37 | RST38h | Cute how somebody suspects the battery acid |
| 20:44.54 | RST38h | When THAT battery leaks, you really don't wanna be around... |
| 20:45.00 | ShadowJK_ | indeed :-) |
| 20:45.41 | ShadowJK_ | It's funny how the industry has invented politically correct jargon for it, "vent with flame" :-) (as opposed to just "explode") |
| 20:46.10 | RST38h | Shadow: There is "metallic overlap" in air traffic control |
| 20:46.19 | lcuk | flames indicate directionality - its like a blow torch usually |
| 20:46.52 | qgil | "explode" could be link to terrorism and create tensions between countries |
| 20:47.14 | qgil | anyway, I'm just proving that I should go to bed |
| 20:47.31 | qgil | bye! |
| 20:47.32 | mavhc | it runs linux, it's already linked to terrorism |
| 20:47.36 | RST38h | g'night |
| 20:47.36 | lcuk | gnite qgil, hope you have found some movies for the weekend by then |
| 20:47.52 | qgil | like Puha Pete |
| 20:47.59 | *** part/#maemo qgil (n=qgil@a88-112-27-165.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 20:48.22 | RST38h | Shit, I have two more things to work on |
| 20:48.35 | mavhc | tried checking the internet archive for films? |
| 20:48.46 | lcuk | omg, thats bob the builder |
| 20:48.49 | RST38h | what is "internet archive"? |
| 20:48.55 | mavhc | archive.org |
| 20:48.57 | lcuk | is it finnish translation? |
| 20:48.59 | lcuk | http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KoY3iQmpIIk |
| 20:49.16 | lcuk | thinks hes seen this one |
| 20:49.29 | X-Fade | Hmm somebody is trying to make a HIM plugin for http://risujin.org/cellwriter/ |
| 20:49.53 | X-Fade | Looks interesting. |
| 20:50.46 | lcuk | mmm that looks familiar http://liqbase.net/liq.20081124_225420.gary.scr.png |
| 20:50.49 | lcuk | :D |
| 20:51.07 | lcuk | im using mine to make a font though |
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| 20:57.24 | Meiz_n810 | lcuk: cool :) |
| 20:58.26 | lcuk | yeah 'tis, will be better when everything comes back together for the next cycle :) |
| 20:59.36 | lcuk | but for now, i have code to ponder over and decisions to make |
| 20:59.39 | lcuk | back later |
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| 21:04.30 | Stskeeps | Meiz_n810: nice touch on the acid test |
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| 21:43.00 | Stskeeps | ponders taking another jab at sb2 |
| 21:43.43 | qwerty12_N800 | prays for Stskeeps's sanity |
| 21:45.09 | Stskeeps | well a cross-compilation sdk is needed, to avoid us from going insane over build wait times |
| 21:45.10 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 21:45.10 | lcuk | takes another jab at Stskeeps |
| 21:45.10 | qwerty12_N800 | hehe |
| 21:45.10 | lcuk | hits him with a 1d vector |
| 21:45.19 | lcuk | qwerty12_N800, what would i use to make gcc compile a c file into a .so ? |
| 21:45.31 | qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, get me a sb1 armel environment for mer, and i'll happily build apps properly :p |
| 21:46.11 | qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, sorry, no idea |
| 21:46.16 | Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: yeah, but im not sure that's saner |
| 21:46.17 | Stskeeps | :P |
| 21:46.54 | qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, sb2 drives me insane :P |
| 21:47.17 | lcuk | huzzah :D gcc -shared -lc -o mylib.so mylib.o |
| 21:47.38 | qwerty12_N800 | :) |
| 21:47.38 | lcuk | or something like that |
| 21:48.44 | Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: did you read m-vo's post btw? |
| 21:48.56 | qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, bits, but i gets the part where sb2 is the shit |
| 21:50.02 | Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: he's actually saying the opposite, that sb2 is way too overreaching |
| 21:50.02 | Stskeeps | and needs a shot of sanity |
| 21:50.02 | qwerty12_N800 | is probably an old timer. while everyone uses sb2 & git, i'll be screaming for sb1 and svn |
| 21:50.02 | lcuk | K.I.S.S |
| 21:50.03 | qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, ah, seems i didn't read it then, but I guess sb2 is the way to go |
| 21:50.03 | lcuk | the simpler the better |
| 21:50.32 | lcuk | i will feel better iwth a full devenv on tablet that i can run "configure" from without hacking to do so |
| 21:50.58 | lcuk | speed is not important for the kinds of projects i want to examine, but my vmware is gone totally now and the laptop is dead |
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| 21:54.14 | qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, did you ever get around to trying andlinux? has its problems, but way easier on your sanity than vmware. of course, I do recommend using linux for real ;) |
| 21:55.02 | lcuk | i recommend it as well, but i will not move to linux for another (checks watch) about 3 weeks. i am determined to have a large format touchscreen slate this year :) |
| 21:55.42 | qwerty12_N800 | hehe, nice :) |
| 21:55.46 | lcuk | if i move i have to feel my code :) |
| 21:57.18 | qwerty12_N800 | should try liqbase on the old xbox (sits around doing nothing anyway) and see how it is on a tv for fu :p |
| 21:57.27 | qwerty12_N800 | fun even |
| 21:59.06 | lcuk | it is buildable on standard desktop linux with a couple of flags, but the experience isnt that great close up - might work nicely on a tv |
| 21:59.19 | lcuk | i need a touchscreen to test it though :) |
| 21:59.39 | lcuk | i hate seeing it fakey |
| 22:00.18 | lcuk | so, if anyone has a touchscreen pc knocking around they really arent using and could do with some love send it my way ;) |
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| 22:01.20 | qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, come to our school, electronic whiteboards are taken quite a lot :p |
| 22:01.33 | Stskeeps | right, forgot those |
| 22:01.39 | Stskeeps | electronic whiteboards. Mer target. |
| 22:01.43 | lcuk | heh, i imagine you live inside a touchscreen cube by now |
| 22:01.49 | mavhc | make your own with a wii controller |
| 22:01.56 | lcuk | lol Stskeeps send me one ill port it |
| 22:01.56 | Stskeeps | i plan to. |
| 22:02.00 | Stskeeps | (mavhc) |
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| 22:47.24 | lardman | GeneralAntilles: ping |
| 22:47.29 | GeneralAntilles | pong |
| 22:47.33 | lardman | hey |
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| 22:48.45 | Stskeeps | wonders if he'll have any hair left after spending too long time with sb |
| 22:48.46 | Stskeeps | 2 |
| 22:51.00 | Stskeeps | heh |
| 22:51.11 | Stskeeps | you did what kam didn't like now, w00t? |
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| 23:24.28 | Stskeeps | glares at sb2 |
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| 23:29.03 | lcuk | flicks a rubberband @ Stskeeps |
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| 23:34.39 | lardman | night all |
| 23:35.01 | Stskeeps | ok, something is definately wrong in their symlink handling |
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| 23:37.55 | Stskeeps | i can rm etc/fonts/conf.d/somesymlink to ../whatever, but not /etc/fonts/conf.d.. |
| 23:38.05 | Stskeeps | hmm. |
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| 23:46.07 | mavhc | darn, the bluetooth remote keyboard doesn't work if the n810 is locked |
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