IRC log for #maemo on 20081025

00:01.10l7hrm, can't say i have
00:01.28l7ah editing /etc/systemui/systemui.xml to enable reboot is a great tool
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00:05.07l7uh oh, what's this device mode prompt?
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00:15.02johnxBilaw, of course. There is some preliminery support in Angstrom. Also check out Deblet and mojo.handhelds.org (ubuntu)
00:16.45lcukwould "instant LOL cat creator" be a killer app?
00:17.05johnxdoes it come with a cat?
00:17.39lcukim just thinking of random little apps for the camera :)
00:17.44Bilawcheers, johnx!
00:17.47l7heh
00:18.56l7man, mplayer's ability to play flvs from the net never ceases to impress me
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00:33.49mgedminlcuk: good idea!
00:34.00mgedminwould work better on a n800 with its swivel camera
00:34.13mgedminor even better on a n900 with a non-crappy camera
00:34.40mgedmin(1) snap a picture (2) type a caption (3) upload to flickr
00:34.46Xamuskcan someone help me try to make my n800 grab data from a serial gps? (garmin etrex legend)
00:34.51mgedminme needs to get a cat
00:35.17lcukmgedmin, :) keep the info as individual pieces and more can be done with it as discovered
00:35.18XamuskI installed the usbserial and pl2303 drivers and the usb-serial cable seems to be working
00:35.34Xamuskbut maemo-mapper isn't getting anywhere
00:36.05mgedmincould it be a protocol issue?
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00:36.22mgedminif you 'cat /dev/ttyUSB42' in an xterm, do you see data from the GPS?
00:36.31Xamuskno
00:36.33mgedmindoes the data look like text, or binary?
00:36.40Xamuskno data
00:37.06Xamuskmaybe my GPS isn't working properly?
00:37.15mgedmindunno
00:37.21mgedminnever had a serial gps
00:37.38mgedminmaybe you need to send some command to it to wake it up
00:38.03mgedminotoh the serial cable has a couple of lines for detecting that the other end is listening
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00:40.48XamuskI don't know if this is valid considering I'm using usb-serial
00:41.06Xamuskbut anyway it seems my gps is in a semi-locked state and I can't get it out of it
00:42.31Xamuskit's not responding to button presses :( only to turn it on and then it gets to satellite screen... it shows satellites (not as much as I'd like) but won't respond to buttons
00:43.24Xamuskmaybe I didn't use it for too long :(
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02:03.37GeneralAntillesPlease, please, somebody kick this guy's ass: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24205&page=10
02:04.51l7eh?
02:04.52johnxwhat lib is he talking about?
02:05.09johnxcan someone just fix it and push it?
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02:07.44GeneralAntillesjohnx, probably.
02:07.48GeneralAntillesHe's kind of an idiot, though.
02:08.18johnxdon't let him get to you
02:08.44GeneralAntillesIt's irritating when he's spreading misinformation to newbies.
02:10.24l7http://www.zdez.org/ speaks of his personality somewhat
02:10.44l7who formats their entire site in <h2>?
02:11.52GeneralAntillesA person who files bugs like this: http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3560
02:12.33l7to his credit, he didn't use all caps for everything
02:12.55GeneralAntillesBizarre: http://tabletschool.blogspot.com/2008/10/future-of-nokia-maemo-and-internet.html
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02:15.39l7hmm, nokia netbooks?
02:16.40GeneralAntillesThe whole point of the tablets is that they're pocketable devices that can do a whole lot more than some smartphone.
02:16.54l7yeah, i don't see the point of turning it into a netbook
02:17.23l7that seems to defeat the purpose of the maemo platform, touch screen technology, etc.
02:17.59ShadowJK_I hope maemo is nokia's secret project to eventually throw out s60
02:18.09l7why wouldn't people just by an eee pc instead?
02:18.44johnxmaemo on a non-touchscreen hi-res device would be kind of grim
02:19.18l7why would you want to compete in the netbook market anyway with so much competition and such thin margins?
02:19.47johnxan ARM netbook might give you more margin to play with
02:19.58l7battery life?
02:20.26l7still it seems like the netbook form factor has plenty of OSes
02:20.38johnxwaaaay too many linux distros already, yes
02:20.45l7ubuntu's netbook remix looks pretty cool
02:20.49ShadowJK_nobody really wants battery life anyway
02:21.02johnxnobody *buys* based on battery life
02:21.08johnxlater on they find out they need it though :)
02:21.18l7eh, decent battery life with good portability would be good
02:21.20l7heh
02:21.26ShadowJK_I mean, when centrino came everybody was hyped about battery life, but then they bought the ones with crippled batteries anyway
02:21.32johnxwell, we buy based on battery life, but we don't count
02:21.39l7the netbooks are all about portability for most people
02:21.52ShadowJK_And now with atom everybody is hyped about battery life, but still most of them sold are the ones with yet weaker batteries, lasting the "standard" 2.5 hours...
02:22.00l7ew
02:22.15l7i guess it depends on your usage patterns
02:22.18ShadowJK_yeah
02:22.20mgedminthinks compiz is cooler than ubuntu's netbook remix
02:22.29l7if you take it home and charge it every night it should be fine
02:22.36l7why do you guys want so much battery life anyway?
02:22.59ShadowJK_Ideally from a cellphone I'd want it to last 8-12 hours on a charge. Mine doesn't ;p
02:23.39ShadowJK_I'd want something similar from a tablet and a laptop probably
02:24.26ShadowJK_I think N810 gets close...
02:24.47ShadowJK_in my pseudobenchmark of leaving things streaming 192kbit/s shoutcast
02:27.21l7how long does it last on that stream?
02:30.20ShadowJK_dunno, I fell asleep
02:30.30ShadowJK_somewhere between 4 and 6 hours I think
02:30.46ShadowJK_my phone does 2-3 hours
02:31.03l7that's pretty good
02:31.31l7the battery life of these tablets seems longer than just about any other comparable device
02:33.21ShadowJK_Yeah
02:34.36l7hmm, i wonder if i should get an n810
02:34.42l7i really want that keyboard :)
02:35.33XamuskI wish my N800 had more battery life... it suck a LOT compared to Palms or iPaqs
02:35.45ds3eh?
02:35.49Xamuskthough I understand the limitations of those
02:36.05ds3I can run my Treo650 flat and still have tons of battery life on the N800
02:36.13l7how's the n800's battery life compare to the n810?
02:36.41GeneralAntillesExactly the same.
02:36.57l7hmm interesting
02:37.13l7i guess the addition of GPS circuitry doesn't draw much
02:37.26GeneralAntillesOnly if it's on.
02:38.03XamuskI have a lended iPaq that keeps working for weeks after I charged it in sleep mode, even though the battery is probably rubbish (for an old model that was disabled for too long)
02:38.10l7is there a program that will tell you how healthy your battery is?
02:38.41Xamuskby the way, I'm trying to make a serial gps work with my N800, but I'm not getting it right
02:39.09GeneralAntillesSadly, no, l7.
02:39.34l7ah well
02:39.45l7it always charges up to 10 hours idle time
02:39.58l7but it doesn't seem like the same 10 hours it used to last
02:39.58GeneralAntillesAll the data points are there
02:40.10GeneralAntillessomebody just has to figure out what they all mean and do the necessary calculations.
02:43.26l7oh
02:43.39l7is there a command line tool that will show them?
02:44.49ShadowJK_where's the data?
02:45.56GeneralAntillesretu
02:46.41ShadowJK_how do you get it out
02:47.06GeneralAntilleshttp://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/n800/kcbatt/
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03:06.33Xamusk./gpsbabel -i garmin,get_posn -f /dev/ttyUSB0 -o kml -F garmin-data.kml
03:07.27l7weird, i found mplayer actually using more CPU to playback mp4 than osso-media
03:08.12Xamuskl7, maybe osso-media uses those "DSP instructions"
03:09.04XamuskI can't connect to that frigging GPS!
03:09.20Xamuskwhat can I do with maemo-mapper to connect it?
03:09.36johnxso gpsbabel works on it?
03:09.44Xamuskjohnx, yes
03:09.54Xamuskwith the command above
03:10.20johnxhmm, maybe get gpsd to talk to it then have maemo mapper connect to gpsd?
03:10.32XamuskI don't know if mapper uses something from gpsbabel or if it assumes the gps talks NMEA or something like that
03:10.40Xamuskjohnx, I already tried it
03:11.06Xamuskjohnx, I run gpsd in nondaemon mode, but it simply says nothing, and the mapper still doesn't find it
03:11.16Xamuskit keeps searching
03:11.40johnxI really don't know
03:13.33GeneralAntillesYou need to initialize gpsd first.
03:13.42GeneralAntillesWhich is why Maemo Mapper uses Bluetooth with no MAC.
03:14.40XamuskGeneralAntilles, I try to run it manually, but I get nowhere: gpsd -n -N -F /tmp/.gpsd_ctrl_sock /dev/ttyUSB0
03:14.51Xamuskrunning as root
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03:15.40XamuskGeneralAntilles, I don't see how else I could "initialize" it
03:16.03GeneralAntillesmaemobluetooth has to start it.
03:16.16GeneralAntillesI believe, anyway.
03:16.24Xamuskmy gps is not bluetooth
03:17.02GeneralAntillesNevermind
03:17.29Xamuskit's serial through a usb-serial cable
03:19.56Xamuskit's a configuration similar to this one: http://www.piku.org.uk/book/export/html/139
03:20.21Xamuskbut I want it to work with mapper
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03:25.38fiekiamaemo mapper can do routs?
03:25.51johnxas long as you have an inet connection
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03:31.31l7or openstreet data right?
03:31.49johnxI don't think maemo mapper can route from osm maps since it uses the bitmap osm maps
03:31.55johnx(someone correct me if things have changed)
03:32.04l7oh
03:32.22l7can any programs for the maemo handle routing offline?
03:33.04johnxthe included "Map" program can (Wayfinfer Maps or somesuch)
03:33.27l7oh that thing
03:33.40l7i wonder if they have improved it since last year, i never touch it
03:33.52johnxyeah, I think it got updated since then
03:34.17johnxalso, I think navit can use osm for routing
03:34.20l7i don't get it, is maemo giving us that commerical app for free?
03:34.54GAN800The app, not the routing.
03:34.58l7oh
03:35.11l7routing requires a subscription then?
03:36.16johnxif you're in the US, an app that can use TIGER maps should be able to do some limited routing IIUC
03:37.00Xamuskcan't mapper use google maps for routing?
03:37.09johnxonly with an inet connection
03:37.09AstralStormhehe
03:37.16AstralStormif OSM vector data is available directly...
03:37.37AstralStormwe could somewhat rewrite mapper with cairo to draw the vector part
03:37.45l7which app do you use to connec to TIGER maps?
03:37.50AstralStorm(or some better engine like AGG)
03:37.51l7connect
03:38.02Xamuskwell, doesn't Nokia maps for symbian phones route offline?
03:38.24AstralStormXamusk: they have to get maps in vector form
03:38.28johnxXamusk, yes, check your scrollback :P
03:38.33AstralStormthen, standard routing algorithms work
03:38.52GAN800AstralStorm, I'd like to see vector support on Maemo Mapper.
03:39.03AstralStormwell, as I said, just vectorize the bitmap piecewise for extra bonus
03:39.25AstralStormGoogle could also provide vectorized maps, but then they wouldn't get all that query analysis bonus
03:40.02XamuskI thought google maps did routing offline
03:40.08AstralStormwrong!
03:40.08Xamuskmaybe with javascript
03:40.14AstralStormno, they do routing online
03:40.27Xamuskbecause I don't see much transfers when I change my route
03:40.35AstralStormyou send them point A, B, C... Z
03:40.48GAN800Maemo Mapper needs an overhaul to handle different map formats more gracefully
03:40.48AstralStormand they do routing online
03:40.56AstralStormmhm
03:40.59AstralStormnot an easy job
03:41.14AstralStormand it needs better db format
03:41.14GAN800The talk on the lists was to rasterize vector maps on the fly to feed to Maemo Mapper. :/
03:41.21AstralStormgdbm is notoriously heavy
03:41.31AstralStormGAN800: WRONG!
03:41.37AstralStormthis is the wrong way to do it
03:41.48AstralStormit's easier to vectorize raster maps usually
03:41.55AstralStormand then, you can analyze them better
03:41.58GAN800Maybe we can talk Nokia into doing some of the grunt work for the Fremantle Stars
03:42.11GAN800AstralStorm, thus, the :/
03:42.28AstralStormit is logical *if* they add route planning plugins
03:42.40AstralStormthen a plugin could be used to rasterize a vector map
03:42.43ShadowJK_Nokia maps for symbian atleast has the decency to try route offline first, and then asks you for permission to go ask the server :-)
03:42.45AstralStormand provide routing data
03:43.17AstralStormShadowJK_: there's no offline routing in mapper. At all.
03:43.24AstralStormso the point is moot
03:43.29ShadowJK_yes
03:43.38ShadowJK_But Xamusk asked about Nokia Maps
03:43.43AstralStormbut then, you might flag some plugins as "online"
03:43.45AstralStormahha
03:43.59AstralStormthere exists such an app for Maemo? I don't think so
03:44.04ShadowJK_no, does not
03:44.08ShadowJK_it's for S60
03:44.12AstralStormyup
03:44.41ShadowJK_I wouldn't mind wayfinder connecting more frequently to internet to download all the speed cameras nearby :-)
03:44.42AstralStormso, the work would be to make Mapper into just an UI
03:45.05AstralStormfor the Map and Routing plugins
03:45.07XamuskI wouldn't like that
03:45.17Xamuskdata plans around here are pretty expensive
03:45.26AstralStormhehe, so they're here
03:45.37AstralStormI'll be getting one flatrate anyway
03:46.15AstralStorm(110 PLN for 6 GB + wifi APs of that operator)
03:46.41AstralStormpity they don't do GB scaling
03:47.07AstralStormabout 30 Euro
03:47.17AstralStormmaybe 25
03:47.52AstralStorm29 today
03:48.20XamuskAstralStorm, here it's 1GB plan (5GB download limit) for what would be equivalent to 129 PLN
03:48.33AstralStormouch
03:48.35Xamusk(PLN estimates by google)
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03:49.06AstralStormbut then, that was the best flatrate of the three
03:50.19AstralStormand there's the problem of not high salaries :)
03:52.34AstralStormcan't wait till voice and data will get unified
03:52.37Xamuskhere the minimum wage by law (and thus what most of the population receives) is the equivalent of 573 PLN
03:52.57Xamuskso a data plan like that is pretty prohibitive
03:52.59AstralStormpoorer country...
03:53.02AstralStormyes
03:53.52ShadowJK_has 2mbit unlimited for 10€ per month :-)
03:54.05AstralStormhere the median is close to 1800 PLN
03:54.11AstralStormShadowJK_: you lucky guy
03:54.13AstralStormI want that
03:54.20ShadowJK_the operators had price war
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03:54.36AstralStormdoesn't such a plan make phone calls mostly obsolete?
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03:55.00AstralStormlike, allowing to buy a really cheap VoIP
03:55.36ShadowJK_yep, same operator coincidentally offers VoIP service too, and provides instructions for how to make it work on the Nokia cellphones' built-in VoIP feature
03:55.37AstralStormreally, phone numbers should go away, instead we should get IPv6 linked to DNS
03:55.52ShadowJK_they used to have UMA but not anymore :/
03:56.17AstralStormI mean, like, you could get addresses like <oldnumber>.call.yourisp.whatever
03:56.26AstralStormwith autocompletion, could be viable
03:56.46AstralStormand then, normal names too :>
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03:57.09AstralStormIP domination is the final phase of 3GPP project
03:57.15ShadowJK_I moved my parents' landline to VoIP, with a standalone VoIP phone. The old number still works for people calling with regular phones, but you can also put in number@sip.isp.fi and it works
03:57.29l7man, the LCARS theme is great
03:57.31AstralStormyes, something like that
03:57.34AstralStormbut no need for @
03:57.48AstralStormbecause each device (3GPP LTE) is required to have an IP
03:57.49ShadowJK_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network Essentially this means your phone can roam between WLAN and 3G/GSM :)
03:57.50l7i'm glad it's bugs are fixed
03:59.39AstralStormthen, either SIP will have to be firewalled off... or cell operators will have to compete
04:00.08AstralStormthe first is automatic if NAT is required (IPv4 doesn't have enough space for all those cell phones)
04:00.30ShadowJK_My operator is giving public IPs still. It's kinda funny, I have 3 public IPs right now
04:00.43AstralStormmine too
04:00.45ShadowJK_smtp might be firewalled but everything else is open
04:00.52AstralStormI want my IPv6
04:01.02AstralStormthey could send one too
04:01.19AstralStormget an allocation, their system does support IPv6 (I have inside sources)
04:01.37ShadowJK_Nokia wants IPv6 :-)
04:01.44ShadowJK_It saves battery power
04:01.57AstralStormevery mobile device
04:02.16AstralStormand if every device is to be seen on the network... then IPv6 is a must
04:02.26AstralStormotherwise we'll drown in NATs
04:04.15Xamusktoo bad nobody is really pushing for IPv6 hard enough
04:04.28AstralStormcell ops will
04:04.34oilinkii suppose ipv6 will come only if the big network operators put different prices for ipv4 and ipv6.
04:04.35AstralStormonce 3GPP is finished
04:04.45Xamuskand even then, it would probably get us into some sort of IP monopoly anyway
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04:05.05AstralStormIP monopoly? there is one already
04:05.05orificeis there a way I can retrieve wep keys off an n810 ?
04:05.07AstralStormcalled IETF ;P
04:05.32AstralStormorifice: monitor mode is supposed to somewhat work
04:05.35oilinkifor example ipv6 traffic would be 20% cheaper. that might let the isps to think it further
04:05.37orificenot hacking wep keys or anything.  Just the saved ones
04:05.50orificeWhen I upgraded to Diablo I lost all my saved wep keys
04:05.58AstralStormah, that... they're in gconf
04:06.02orificeahh ok
04:06.03orificethanks
04:07.31AstralStormipv6 "traffic" cannot be made "cheaper" globally
04:07.44AstralStormit actually uses a tiny bit more bandwidth
04:08.17Xamuskgotta go
04:08.27AstralStormso, the only driver would be reducing infrastructure
04:08.31AstralStormlike number of routers
04:08.55AstralStormand simplifying topology, lowering latency
04:09.18oilinkisenores does this make any sense? i want to charge nokia phone, n810 and gps-module in car. i'm planing to put an 12v->5v (2A) transformer which will feed usb-hub (5v/2A) and then charge the devices from there?
04:09.19AstralStormhaving to pass 10 NATs isn't too fast
04:09.48AstralStormn810 can't be charged over USB, unless you grab that USB->Nokia plug charger
04:10.14disco_stuAstralStorm: nat does not overhead in performance
04:10.15oilinkiAstralStorm: the idea is to push isps to use ipv6. therefore make ipv6 cheaper eg transfer the money from ipv4 to ipv6
04:10.23AstralStormdisco_stu: wrong
04:10.27AstralStormit adds latency
04:10.30AstralStormsome ms
04:10.37disco_stuAstralStorm: i m not wrong man
04:10.42AstralStormespecially if busy
04:10.46disco_stunaa
04:10.51AstralStormusually you pass about 3 nats
04:10.58AstralStormwhich isn't any appreciable amount
04:11.11oilinkifor the charger i tought that i can use the usb->nokia plug converter directly like this http://www.walrus.com/~raphael/html/usb_charge.html
04:11.11AstralStormif 3GPP LTE is to run, you'll pass many more
04:11.37AstralStormoilinki: yes, but n810 can drain up to 850 mA
04:11.51AstralStormso in some very rare situations, the charger won't charge ;P
04:12.39AstralStormdisco_stu: I'm not talking like NAT for 3 machines
04:12.41oilinkiAstralStorm: ok. but if it's 2A, then there should be some power left for phone and gps
04:12.44AstralStormbut one with 100s of clients
04:12.52disco_stuwho said 3 machines
04:12.53AstralStormoilinki: uhm...
04:12.56disco_stuthe hell..
04:12.59AstralStormUSB limits current to 0.5A
04:13.00disco_stunat 100 times
04:13.02disco_stuis the same
04:13.08AstralStormno, it's not
04:13.16AstralStormit has to inspect every packet, change the IP address in it
04:13.19AstralStormthat is time
04:13.21oilinkicurrently i use 12v-> 220v-> 5v  in the car, which doesn't make any sense ;)
04:13.26AstralStormand store info about state
04:13.44oilinkiah. i did not know about the 0.5A limit.
04:13.45disco_stuthat is done at speedlight
04:13.56disco_stulightspeed or whatever
04:13.58AstralStormyes yes, check it yourself
04:14.10AstralStormsend it some bilion of packets
04:14.23AstralStormsee what's the average latency on output
04:14.46AstralStormbtw, LTE is supposed to do 200 Mb upload
04:14.59AstralStormand 300 Mb download
04:15.15AstralStormso you need a nat of 1GbE class
04:15.17GeneralAntillesThe Nokia car charger is ~390mA
04:15.23GeneralAntillesSo 500mA shouldn't be a huge issue.
04:15.25AstralStormfor just one happy hacker
04:15.35AstralStormGeneralAntilles: and it doesn't manage to charge the battery
04:15.36AstralStormI checked
04:15.39AstralStorm:)
04:15.57AstralStormyou need at least 450 mA to charge the battery on light use
04:16.09GeneralAntillesIt does here.
04:16.17AstralStormif you disable wifi, then yes
04:16.28GeneralAntillesNot sure who'd be using wifi in a car
04:16.39AstralStormyou have a point :>
04:16.44AstralStormbluetooth eats less power
04:17.23oilinkii use sometimes with joikuspot.. but it will drain the e61i battery very fast
04:18.09AstralStormdisco_stu: what's more, with LTE you'll have one huge NAT, or at least a tree of few such
04:18.35oilinkitherefore nowdays it's bt-connection
04:18.55AstralStormwe need 3G LTE. Really :>
04:19.01AstralStormuhm, that is, 4G
04:19.25AstralStormthis is almost as efficient as bluetooth, while having wide range
04:23.20oilinkiI would be happy for a good edge connection in this country :)
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04:27.55AstralStormhehe, here, edge is widely available almost everywhere
04:28.42AstralStormabout 99,1% of country
04:28.59AstralStorm99,52% population
04:29.32oilinkiI spend tihs week in Phuket where I'm  going to move soon.  there the best connection I got was gprs with 10kBps download speed. lot's of places without any connectivity.
04:29.59oilinkiwell need to try with another operator if the connectivity would be better.
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05:10.43zackeroohow do you extract a .tar.gz ?
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05:13.20oilinkizackeroo: gunzip a.tar.gz  and then tar xvf a.tar ?
05:14.06bef0rdtar -xvzf file.tar.gz
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05:15.06zackeroono frontend?
05:15.25zackerooyou have to use the terminal for extracting a file?
05:16.50bef0rdI'd use the terminal anyway
05:16.53zackeroodoes anyone know if Roadmap is good for anywhere else in the world but the US and Canada?
05:17.12bef0rdthere is a front end , its called xarchiver I believe
05:17.31zackerooyeah .. tried that and its not working ...
05:18.00bef0rdthat's why I prefer the terminal.
05:18.26zackeroook
05:18.35zackeroodoes anyone here use Roadmap?
05:19.00oilinkizackeroo: what is the roadmap for?
05:19.41zackerooGPS
05:19.47oilinkiand how does it differ of the maemo mapper?
05:20.36zackerooseems like its made for GPS .... and I am trying to find one that does Voice
05:21.02oilinkizackeroo: have you checked maemo mapper yet?
05:21.07zackerooyes
05:21.09zackeroono voice
05:21.20zackerooand I have flite installed
05:21.26zackerooand enabled
05:21.36zackerooand, yes, it is working in the terminal
05:22.06oilinkihmm. i had a voice before with maemomapper and flite. now i have not cheked as the voice was too quiet for car usage
05:23.12zackeroowere you using Diablo?
05:23.52oilinkican not remember when i used with flite. could be before diablo.
05:24.00zackerooyeah
05:24.31oilinkii really like the maemo mapper, but it has it faults as well. using pois is not very convinient
05:24.36zackerooits really something ... because I upgrade to gain features, but I also loose features in the process
05:28.04zackerooI really like mapper ... but without voice it is of no use to me
05:28.47zackerooI cannot be bothered to have to read tiny text on a screen while driving ...
05:28.55zackerooits also dangerous
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05:37.37ShadowJK_where can I get this lcars theme?
05:39.30l7ShadowJK_: http://synthesize.us/LCARS_PADD/changelog
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07:30.28lopznight
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08:14.22Jaffamorning, all
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08:38.51camel_liulook around
08:41.40Jaffasticks a more concrete version of his package categorisation thoughts from yesterday on http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories
08:42.29qwerty12would like a user/internet but user/network sounds good
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08:45.03Jaffaqwerty12: Samba clients wouldn't count as 'Internet' ;-)
08:45.06Jaffa(hopefully)
08:46.28qwerty12Jaffa: I'm not thinking about Samba clients. I wanted to put transmission in user/internet but was forced to put it in user/other because the "allowed" categories available at the moment suck so I was forced to put it in user/other
08:46.38qwerty12-so I was forced to put it in user/other
08:46.47qwerty12(Didn't realise I was repeating myself >.<)
08:47.17Jaffaqwerty12: indeed, but my point was there are networky things which don't fit anywhere else, but aren't 'Internet' related. The i18n could always be 'Internet & networking'
08:48.26qwerty12Ah, yes, I get you now. Yeah, I agree, user/networking is a better choice when looking at it.
08:49.20GeneralAntillesI wonder what Nokia's plans are for Fremantle's application menu.
08:49.41GeneralAntillesIt'd be nice to have enough top level folders to have them match the categories reasonably well.
08:50.47camel_liuI'm using maemo 4.1.1, and testing maemo SDK installation according to it reference manual
08:50.47camel_liuWhen run 'Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 800x480x16 -dpi 96 -ac -extension Composite', I got below ouput:
08:50.47camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdLightOnOff: line 70 of pc
08:50.47camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessDown: line 71 of pc
08:50.47camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessUp: line 72 of pc
08:50.48camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdLightOnOff: line 70 of pc
08:50.50camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessDown: line 71 of pc
08:50.52camel_liuexpected keysym, got XF86KbdBrightnessUp: line 72 of pc
08:50.54camel_liuHow to resolve it?
08:51.43qwerty12Does it matter? It still works fine.
08:53.12camel_liuYes, it still works, but it bothers me.
08:53.29camel_liuI want everything be perfect.
08:54.48camel_liuAnd when I Ctrl+C it, it returns below:
08:54.49camel_liuFreeFontPath: FPE "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc" refcount is 2, should be 1; fixing.
08:54.49camel_liuWhat about this?
08:54.52JaffaGeneralAntilles: agreed
08:56.44camel_liuI want to why these messages occur and how to resolve them. Anybody knows?
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08:57.41usicowI've got a strange problem.. when I try to write files on /media/mmc1 I get the error that the file system is in read-only mode.. how can I verify this and fix it?
08:59.14qwerty12Running "mount" would tell you if it's in RO (afaik) and dmesg says if the device has been mounted ro. But you can run fsck as root to fix it.
08:59.25qwerty12s/RO/ro
08:59.37qwerty12s/fsck/fsck.whatever
08:59.48GeneralAntillesfiles a bug.
09:00.49usicowok.. mount looks like it certainly is in RO mode.
09:00.51usicow/dev/mmcblk1p1 on /media/mmc1 type vfat (ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8)
09:01.01qwerty12vows never to "compile" po4a in scratchbox again. Fucking dependencies...
09:02.22usicowusing dmesg it says '[  654.843750] FAT: Filesystem panic (dev mmcblk0p1)'
09:02.46camel_liuto qwerty12: Do you have any idea about the problem of Xephyr?
09:03.08qwerty12camel_liu: Like I said when you PM'ed me:
09:03.09qwerty12qwerty12> Nope
09:03.09qwerty12<qwerty12> The messages have never bothered me so I've never bothered looking
09:04.35qwerty12usicow: become root with whatever method, run umount /media/mmc1 ; fsck.vfat -a /dev/mmcblk0p1 ; fsck.vfat -r /dev/mmcblk0p1
09:05.19usicowqwerty12: ok, I'll do that.. but what does that do? :) I'm just curious why this has happened.
09:06.37qwerty12usicow: Unmounts the memory card so fsck can do its stuff and repair it :). First invocation of fsck repairs it automatically and then the second invocation of fsck asks you what option to do to repair because I noticed in automatic mode, it skips things it wants an answer for
09:07.00qwerty12The knob hasn't heard of a pastebin...
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09:07.15qwerty12He attempted to send me his scratchbox log over a pm
09:07.17qwerty12TF
09:07.19GeneralAntillesHa
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09:09.31usicowqwerty12: ok.. there was another thing that I noticed, maybe it happened at the same time - I'm not sure.. but I install maemo-pan, and I think after that, my wireless router no longer gave the static IP that it used to. As if the mac address changed or something.. could that be possible?
09:09.39GeneralAntilleshttp://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3822
09:09.45GeneralAntillesitt
09:10.50qwerty12usicow: maemo-pan shouldn't interfere with that, I have maemo-pan and I still get my ip's fine
09:11.35usicowstrange...
09:11.41qwerty12usicow: Are you using the feature of the router where it assigns a specific ip via dhcp to a device or using a real static ip?
09:12.03GeneralAntillesJaffa, there is a lot to be said for going with the freedesktop.org specification
09:12.12usicowqwerty12: the feature where the router assigns a specific ip via DHCP (I assume based on mac address)
09:12.53qwerty12usicow: yeah, it's still getting done via dhcp then as opposed to being a real static ip
09:13.56camel_liuaf-sb-init.sh returns below:
09:13.56camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > af-sb-init.sh start
09:13.56camel_liuNote: For remote X connections DISPLAY should contain hostname!
09:13.56camel_liuSample files present.
09:13.56camel_liuStarting DBUS system bus
09:14.38qwerty12Goddamn, if he can't live with a few errors, I doubt his programs contain bugs...
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09:15.22camel_liuWhat Plugin desktop file does it mean?
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09:27.27GeneralAntillesStskeeps, ping.
09:28.02Stskeepspong
09:28.08Stskeepsmight have to leave in a few though
09:28.21Stskeepsgf's home for 9 days and she wants to go shopping as she claims i don't have enough food in the house
09:28.31GeneralAntillesHa
09:28.37GeneralAntillesThat what I always tell my family. :P
09:28.47GeneralAntillesWell, it's a slightly involved question
09:29.06usicowqwerty12: Ok, I fixed the filesystem and thought everything was going okay,.. so I tried to update a project I've got via svn, and after a minute or so, the n810 just rebooted.. dont know why.. and now ksoftirqd/0 is using 100% CPU. Do you have any idea whats going on?
09:29.41GeneralAntillesBut, I guess what I want to ask of you WRT Quim's stuff about upstream alignment is: What are the concrete things Nokia should do to maximize compatibility with Debian/Ubuntu?
09:30.16GeneralAntillesPut simply, what are the big blockers to adding a Debian repo to your catalog and installing packages from there?
09:30.29Jaffa|/who
09:30.31Jaffax
09:31.01Jaffagavin: Voted on #3822
09:31.40StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'll think a bit and research for a proper answer for that.. they really messed up things with not having a proper debhelper for instance, package names / not following renames of packages..
09:31.50JaffaBah, damned nick completion on ':'
09:31.55JaffaGeneralAntilles: Voted on #3822
09:33.06StskeepsGeneralAntilles: many maemo-isms, gtkmm lacking typical properties (compile time thing), they should allow for selecting the embedded library and the full gtk
09:33.23GeneralAntillesStskeeps, from your comments yesterday, I'm not sure where you got that Nokia doesn't want to align Maemo with upstream from Quim's comments.
09:33.38GeneralAntillesUnless you were responding to them not wanting to push Maemo as a mobile Linux for use by other manufacturers.
09:33.47StskeepsGeneralAntilles: the last part
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09:34.11Stskeepsthere's plenty of good things in maemo to do exactly that though
09:34.21GeneralAntillesI don't see that as having anything to do with aligning with upstream
09:34.41crashanddieHi everyone :)
09:34.52GeneralAntillesHey, crashanddie.
09:34.53StskeepsGeneralAntilles: gtg for now, i'll think a bit about this :P
09:34.55GeneralAntillesHow's the job?
09:34.58GeneralAntillesStskeeps, thanks! :)
09:35.05crashanddieGeneralAntilles, awesome, very busy
09:35.10GeneralAntillesI'm glad you are, because I don't have the experience to. :D
09:35.24crashanddieGeneralAntilles, got back from work yesterday around 11PM :P
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09:35.31GeneralAntillesOuch
09:35.42crashanddiemonday evening I'm off for Paris
09:35.51crashanddiethen within the next month or so, Ukraine
09:35.55crashanddieand then Paris again
09:37.42qwerty12~ping
09:37.43infobot~pong
09:38.54GeneralAntillesWe need a wiki page for this upstream stuff.
09:39.00Jaffakrisse's gone mad.
09:39.10GeneralAntillesJaffa, ha, that was exactly my thought.
09:39.13JaffaMaemo-based netbooks?
09:39.38JaffaI'd rather have Ubuntu or OS X on a netbook than Maemo.
09:40.45JaffaAlmost worth blogging about it (not via the council) as there's no comment facility there.
09:41.02usicow<PROTECTED>
09:41.15GeneralAntillesYou take the stylus/fingers out of the equation and there isn't much point to Maemo.
09:41.52qwerty12usicow: Probably a dodgy sd card or the svn export or checkout is tying up the cpu and the watchdog is rebooting it
09:42.20usicowhmm
09:42.22crashanddieMaemo might have a point once Qt gets involved
09:42.33crashanddieOr liq*
09:42.44GeneralAntillescrashanddie, but when you have a keyboard and trackpad?
09:42.55crashanddieHaving a framework to easily develop lightweight applications
09:43.16GeneralAntillesWhy would Maemo be better there than Ubuntu?
09:43.45crashanddieHey, I didn't say I was right
09:43.49crashanddieI just woke up
09:43.52GeneralAntilles:P
09:43.53crashanddieI said it might have a point
09:43.57crashanddienot that it did :P
09:44.02GeneralAntillesYou must have some arguments to back up your point. :P
09:44.09crashanddieoh fuck Maemo
09:44.18GeneralAntillesRight in the ear?
09:44.20crashanddiegood enough of an argument for you?
09:44.39crashanddieIght, in the rear?
09:45.17GeneralAntillesQuote from the South Park movie.
09:46.29JaffaGeneralAntilles: http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/10/25/
09:46.49crashanddiepump up your ego much?
09:46.58crashanddiemaemopeople [...] Jaffa
09:47.14*** join/#maemo djcb_ (n=djcb@a88-113-141-98.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
09:47.20crashanddieI know, I know
09:47.21Jaffacrashanddie: eh? maemopeople.org is a free blog hosting site for Maemo-related topics
09:47.23crashanddieI'll stfu
09:47.36GeneralAntillesWho owns maemopeople?
09:47.40Jaffamaddler
09:48.16crashanddieWho's maddler?
09:48.19Jaffaouts: bike shopping for Jaffa Jr.
09:48.34crashanddieJaffa, what's the budget?
09:48.48crashanddieJaffa, and what does he want?
09:49.23crashanddieTrailing? Downhill? Road?
09:50.25*** join/#maemo krutt (n=mk@p5B0470FA.dip.t-dialin.net)
09:50.25GeneralAntillescrashanddie, I don't think he's more than a few years old. :P
09:50.26crashanddieoh
09:50.42crashanddieI wouldn't suggest downhill then :P
09:50.47*** part/#maemo keesj (n=keesj@ip49-193-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl)
09:50.52crashanddieDamnit
09:51.05crashanddiethe work computer has a UK-qwerty keyboard
09:51.14crashanddieI have a FR-azerty
09:51.20crashanddieI keep making mistqkates
09:51.23GeneralAntilleslol
09:51.23crashanddiemistakes**
09:51.28GeneralAntillesI type on two layouts without issue
09:51.29GeneralAntillesYou'll cope. :P
09:51.40crashanddieWell usually I manage
09:51.45crashanddieit's just this morning...
09:51.48GeneralAntillesHa
09:52.00crashanddieOh and btw, blackberry ftw
09:52.05camel_liuWhen run 'af-sb-init.sh', it returns below:
09:52.05camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > hildon-input-method[6842]: GLIB MESSAGE default - ui up and running
09:52.05camel_liuhildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB DEBUG default - mission_control_get_presence_actual: MC not running.
09:52.05camel_liuAudio File Library: could not open file '/usr/share/sounds/ui-window_open.wav' [error 3]
09:52.06camel_liuAudio File Library: could not open file '/usr/share/sounds/ui-window_close.wav' [error 3]
09:52.06camel_liu<PROTECTED>
09:52.07GeneralAntilleshand crashanddie a cup of coffee.
09:52.08camel_liuhildon-desktop[6858]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin
09:52.10camel_liuDoes nobody have any idea?
09:52.19crashanddiecamel_liu, yeah, don't spam the channel
09:52.20GeneralAntillescamel_liu, please use slexy.org for that.
09:52.22StskeepsGeneralAntilles: what nokia ought to do is: reconstruct maemo. take packages and traditional dependancies from latest debian/ubuntu dist, build for device, make a script for building this foundation, open source the foundation. Use OHM + Upstart + HAL for sane system services and power savings, Xorg+omapfb driver and a hildon desktop on top. Keep system updated with upstream - customize with busybox and such but don't try to limit upstream abilities ...
09:52.28Stskeeps... too much. If you're going to do API breaks (GTK, GTKMM), use seperate directories and make apps depend on the specialized apps (pkg-config maemo-gtk for instance), but don't break upstream ability to get something sane. Instead of relying on nokia binary blobs for wifi etc connectivity, use bluez and wpa_supplicant, maybe customize network manager to be less crap. Otherwise, provide stub conic etc.
09:52.37crashanddieIs this happy hour or what?
09:52.59StskeepsGeneralAntilles: and then build services + apps + tablet specific things on top
09:53.01camel_liuI'm new in IRC
09:53.04camel_liusorry
09:53.29GeneralAntillesStskeeps, that sounds like the answer I was looking for.
09:53.36crashanddiecamel_liu, does the UI show in Xephyr?
09:53.41crashanddiecamel_liu, can you use it?
09:53.43GeneralAntillesWe'll kick together a wiki page later, Stskeeps.
09:53.45GeneralAntillesThanks. :)
09:53.51camel_liuyes, it show normally
09:53.59crashanddiecamel_liu, then don't worry about it
09:54.05crashanddiecamel_liu, everyone gets warnings
09:54.05GeneralAntillescrashanddie, they're just harmless errors that qwerty12 told him to ignore.
09:54.39crashanddiecamel_liu, rule of thumb: if it works, don't mess with it
09:54.59StskeepsGeneralAntilles: and this will make a sane system for them and make community happy as people can, if they want, remove hildon, transfer maemo foundation to another tablet device (pandora), build their open source replacements and HW specific stuff for their device
09:55.01Jaffacrashanddie: as GeneralAntilles says, the type of bike is "first" ;-)
09:55.17Stskeepsand nokia instantly gets new apps for the maemo platform even when they're on other devices
09:55.20GeneralAntillesJaffa, get some baseball cards to go in the spokes. :)
09:55.35qwerty12This is the UK, it's all about football :p
09:55.47GeneralAntillesRight, that. :D
09:55.49GeneralAntilleswasn't thinking.
09:55.54crashanddieJaffa, well, if you ever want some advice :) I'm about in to buy a £2000 downhill bike :)
09:56.02*** part/#maemo Ivan_Chelubeev1 (n=ijon@ppp85-141-80-163.pppoe.mtu-net.ru)
09:56.22GeneralAntillescrashanddie, you gonna get a Beagle or Pandora?
09:56.24Stskeepsand has the "cool" of more polished devices and OS'es, with support and neat services you can't get easily on other HW, increasing why you should select a nokia tablet
09:56.32crashanddieGeneralAntilles, neither, by the looks of it
09:56.55crashanddieGeneralAntilles, well, Pandora is dead for me, I don't want a gaming console
09:57.08crashanddieGeneralAntilles, I'll get the beagle board once I have a car
09:57.20crashanddieI want to build a cheap audio/video system in it, using the beagle board
09:57.26camel_liuwhen I program something in Windows, I would like erverything to be ok, no warning, no error. In Linux or Maemo, that's different? We have to go on with so many warnings?
09:57.38GeneralAntillescrashanddie, I want to see your notes after you do.
09:57.40crashanddiecamel_liu, no, you don't have to
09:57.44GeneralAntillesThat's been on my list for a really long time.
09:58.00camel_liuso I want to figure it out.
09:58.00crashanddieGeneralAntilles, thing is, I won't have a car here in London unless I move out
09:58.09crashanddiecamel_liu, excepted it's not your code
09:58.15GeneralAntillescamel_liu, Zephyr warnings don't have anything to do with your program.
09:58.15StskeepsGeneralAntilles: do you think it's a sane idea or idiotic? i mean, it doesn't really seem like fremantle OS itself has moved that much
09:58.27GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I think it's a fantastic idea.
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09:58.39GeneralAntillesBut I suspect Nokia will want to take baby steps to start out.
09:58.45camel_liubut af-sb-init.sh does
09:58.59StskeepsGeneralAntilles: they'll also get a lot of free work from their upstream :P
09:58.59GeneralAntillesI'd pick a few specific things that they can start with.
09:59.00crashanddiecamel_liu, no, af-sb-init.sh doesn't raise any warnings
09:59.21GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I think that's also the sort of answer Quim is after.
09:59.38GeneralAntillesSo put all that in an email as soon as you have the free time and fire it off. ;)
09:59.45camel_liuHow about the  GLIB WARNING ** default - Plugin desktop file not found, ignoring plugin? So many!
10:00.01StskeepsGeneralAntilles: ok
10:00.14Stskeepsthey better give me a job offer
10:00.15Stskeeps:P
10:00.22GeneralAntillesHa
10:00.31GeneralAntillesStskeeps, hell, you wouldn't be the first community guy to apply.
10:00.34crashanddiecamel_liu, the underlying libraries/programs which are called/executed (and were created for a real hardware platform, and then ported to a software emulation, let's not forget that) create the warnings. One of the causes is that the scratchbox environment is extremely minimalistic (even more than Maemo itself, which is not saying nothing)
10:00.37GeneralAntilles(and get in)
10:00.44GeneralAntillesNo harm in trying if you're actually interested. :P
10:00.55StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i'm not entirely sure i would belong in nokia though :P but if i was able to insane things like this, maybe :P
10:01.28crashanddiecamel_liu, I don't think any operating system in the world manages to start entirely without a single warning
10:01.51crashanddieIt's not because those warnings are hidden from you they're anything better
10:02.11StskeepsGeneralAntilles: any my idea would be a "wet dream maemo", really. You can get the power of desktop apps if you want, and use the power saving and embedded apps if you want as well
10:02.15Stskeepsbest of both worlds
10:02.31crashanddiethere is no power in desktop apps
10:02.44Stskeepsand porting would be slightly easier
10:02.44GeneralAntillesStskeeps, set two targets, the "wet dream Maemo" and some specific realistic targets Nokia can hit.
10:02.44Stskeeps:P
10:02.48StskeepsGeneralAntilles: mm
10:03.04crashanddieonly lack of power from the intensive shit, and poor UI design
10:03.20Stskeepsi really think most of the stuff i've said is "realistic", as they're doing most things already (atleast what they claim)
10:03.31Stskeepsohm+upstart+hal for instance
10:03.35Stskeepsanyhow
10:03.35GeneralAntillesStskeeps, fair enough.
10:03.36Stskeepsshoppin' time
10:03.41GeneralAntillesHave fun.
10:04.58crashanddiegoes to get a cup of coffee, and then gets back to Windows 2003 server, VPN, LDAP, and smartcards :)
10:05.30GeneralAntillesBleh
10:05.39camel_liucrashanddie: thank you
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10:06.41qwerty12Windows server 2003 administration eh? The best thing I done with my school's windows 2003 server was hack it (their fault for using the same admin password on all the client computers) and then modify the isa server rules to let me utorrent :P
10:06.56crashanddieqwerty12, nha, not administration, lol
10:07.04crashanddieqwerty12, I have a better job than that :P
10:07.12qwerty12Hehe, even better :D
10:07.22crashanddieqwerty12, I wouldn't be travelling the world if I was a sysadmin
10:07.51GeneralAntillesHigh-price manwhore with a computer geek theme? :P
10:08.02crashanddiehahaha
10:11.21camel_liucrashanddie, do you happen to have any links to teach how to make applications compiled in scratchbox run at Nokia N800 step by step?
10:12.53crashanddieOpen a browser, type "maemo.org" in the address bar, click on development, click on documentation, click on how-to, click on maemo diablo release documentation
10:13.00crashanddiethat enough step by step?
10:13.22camel_liuThe Diablo reference manual is not clear about how to start at N800
10:14.16camel_liuYes, I browse the maemo.org, and download the reference manual
10:15.45camel_liuWhen I follow the manual, I confuse at section 3.5 Setting up USB Networking
10:16.27crashanddieyou probably don't need it
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10:17.08qwerty12would recommend to learn the essence of packaging instead
10:17.47crashanddiecamel_liu, once it's compiled, scp the binary over to the n800, run
10:18.11camel_liuWe bought several N800s from eBay, and want to do something on them.
10:18.25crashanddiecamel_liu, have you upgraded them to diablo?
10:18.42GeneralAntillesAnybody have any suggestions for what I should replace the Nokia hands startup screen with that would be maemo.org themed?
10:19.04crashanddieGeneralAntilles, goatse
10:19.12GeneralAntilles<_<
10:19.14qwerty12haha
10:19.25crashanddie"Every reboot is a PITA"
10:19.31camel_liusome are OS2008. How to see the version on N800?
10:19.42crashanddiecamel_liu, settings > about
10:19.43qwerty12still gets shits and giggles looking at goatser
10:19.45qwerty12-r
10:19.59MangoFusionseveral n800's...
10:20.00crashanddieqwerty12, goatser was the guy, actually
10:20.00MangoFusioni know
10:20.07MangoFusiona cluster!
10:20.17crashanddieBEOWULF
10:20.21qwerty12crashanddie: really, lol
10:20.26MangoFusionindeed
10:21.36camel_liuNO settings found in menu :(
10:22.06crashanddie...
10:22.20qwerty12My friend had a u3 and I installed gonzor for him on it and he ran it on his own computer to test it out and it dumped the firefox saved passwords and he kept the logs. He gave me the usb to put ut on it and I saw the logs and I set his avatar to goatse on ipmart
10:23.09crashanddieqwerty12, usb hacksaw/switchblade... Lame
10:23.33qwerty12crashanddie: Worked for me for getting his firefox password (unintentionally) :P
10:23.40GeneralAntillescamel_liu, Application menu: Settings -> Control Panel: About
10:23.44qwerty12is a self confessed script kidde
10:23.47qwerty12*kiddie even
10:25.05GeneralAntilleshttp://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3820 and http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3819
10:25.15GeneralAntillesAnybody object to WONTFIX and WORKSFORME?
10:25.54qwerty12Nope
10:26.20qwerty12The guy opening 3820 is lazy imo
10:26.22camel_liuOk, this N800 in my hand is OS2007, and it's Application menu: Tools -> Control Panel: About. Thanks
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10:27.23GeneralAntillescamel_liu:
10:27.25GeneralAntilles~flashing
10:27.25infobotrumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
10:27.26eichihelo
10:28.04eichii have a small problem with the rights from external memorycard
10:28.06eichiif i put data from my laptop on it, i dont have write access to them on the n800
10:28.29qwerty12ext* formatted?
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10:30.50camel_liuHow can I start xterm on N800?
10:31.09qwerty12It doesn't come with OS2007 by default
10:32.05camel_liuSo I have to upgrade to OS2008 first?
10:32.08qwerty12Hmm, I have no idea where to get it for OS2007 though having only ever used it for 10 mins. I'd just say upgrade to diablo reading the link GeneralAntilles gave
10:32.21qwerty12Basically, yeah. Which SDK did you install btw?
10:33.03camel_liuJust browse to that link using N800? My SDK installed is 4.1.1.
10:33.27qwerty12Oh, programs built with that SDK wouldn't work in OS2007 anyway
10:33.43qwerty12No computer, as you need a computer to perform the actual upgrade
10:34.40eichiqwerty12, yes, ext3 but will do ex2 next days
10:35.24camel_liuqwerty12, I do not understand what you said.
10:35.43qwerty12eichi: Check if "user" owns the files you want to access. ls -l <file> should tell you
10:35.44camel_liuN800 cannot upgrade through wifi?
10:35.51qwerty12camel_liu: Not in OS2007,
10:36.49qwerty12Oh, my bad, I see my grammatical problems creeped up in that sentence. You need a computer to upgrade from OS2007 to OS2008.
10:38.23camel_liuHow? the link (http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware) returns a blank page.
10:38.51GeneralAntillescamel_liu, reload.
10:39.36camel_liustill nothing! Not this link?
10:39.53GeneralAntillescamel_liu, make sure it's not just reloading the cache. . . .
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10:41.44eichiqwerty12, and then i have to do chown user:users <folder> -r ?
10:41.57qwerty12eichi: yep
10:47.06eichiqwerty12, shi*, no valid user "user" ;D in laptop
10:47.15t_s_omaemo not usable with a larger keyboard? yea right...
10:47.24qwerty12eichi: do it on the tablet :P
10:47.34eichiand the user-ID would not be the same maybe
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10:48.57camel_liuother links in 'wiki.maemo.org' are ok except that one (Updating_the_tablet_firmware)!
10:49.02usicowqwerty12: what the correct mount command to remount /dev/mmcblk1p1?
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10:49.41GeneralAntillescamel_liu, your browser has cached the blank page.
10:49.45qwerty12usicow: ke-recv mounts it with something really long. Just remove and reinsert the memory card
10:49.48GeneralAntillesMake sure it isn't reloading the cached page.
10:49.55usicowok
10:54.23camel_liuI cleared cach, but still return blank page
10:54.37qwerty12Which browser?
10:54.43camel_liufirefox
10:54.54qwerty12Press Ctrl-Shift-R at the blank page
10:55.38camel_liuDone!
10:56.20camel_liuI'll remember Ctrl-Shift-R! Thanks!
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11:05.50camel_liucrashanddie, GeneralAntilles, infobot and qwerty12: Thanks for your patient answers.
11:06.20qwerty12No problems but you should know that infobot isn't human :D
11:06.36camel_liuOh ?
11:06.43qwerty12Yeah, he's a bot
11:07.04camel_liujust a bot
11:07.18camel_liuHow clever!
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11:12.14camel_liuWhen a program is compiled under scratchbox, how can I ship it to N800? Is there any references? Or just follow the step of Reference Manual for maemo 4.1? crashanddie said just scp it to n800 and run. Is that simple?
11:12.37GeneralAntillesOf course it's that simple.
11:14.45camel_liujust connect N800 to host by USB and scp in terminal of host?
11:15.04camel_liuno gainroot on N800 or else?
11:15.23GeneralAntillesJust use wifi
11:15.37GeneralAntillessftp is also an option
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11:16.47hellwolfIn maemo mapper, I clicked route->download, then the application stopped. Should I wait
11:17.53camel_liuBrowse to that package and download it through wifi, then install and run. Am I right?
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11:21.05camel_liuGeneralAntilles?
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11:31.30camel_liuIf I want my apllication to be run on N800, then What I need to do is just scp or download it to N800 through wifi. No USB networking is needed, right?
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11:57.21camel_liuquit
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12:24.45GeneralAntillesWhew, there's a 2000-email lighter inbox.
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12:27.01RST38hrm -rf?
12:27.26GeneralAntillesNah, there was important stuff mixed in with the spam.
12:27.38hibershhello everyone
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13:38.02Jaffayawns
13:45.30GAN800wonders if karma will ever work again.
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13:53.11JaffaSeems unlikely.
13:54.17JaffaHow many people are working on maemo.org fulltime?
13:55.07solmumahashould i be able to edit wiki or what is this user localhost thing?
13:55.18Jaffasolmumaha: either login or use https
13:55.39solmumahai did login
13:55.45Jaffaah
13:56.58solmumahaah, works with https, thanks
13:57.51solmumahaalthough it still says " You are not logged in. Your IP address will be recorded in this page's edit history."
13:58.15JaffaYou sure you're logged in? ;-)
14:00.32solmumahayes, it shows my ip on top right and lets me edit it
14:00.47qwerty12That means you aren't logged in :)
14:01.02solmumahasigh
14:01.19qwerty12If you are logged in, you should see your username there instead
14:01.39GAN800Jaffa, would you count Nemein?
14:01.54JaffaHmm, maybe.
14:01.55solmumahaou are now logged in to maemo wiki as "ukki"
14:02.13solmumahabut after i return to article, it shows my ip
14:02.17GAN800Jaffa, too many for karma not to work, methinks. :/
14:02.40Jaffatrying to work out how many people /could/ be working on fixing what weve already got, rather than spending time on other things
14:02.57JaffaGAN800: that was where I was going, too
14:03.57GAN800solmumaha, there's a bug.
14:04.42*** join/#maemo MangoFusion_ (n=jamesu@host86-162-121-81.range86-162.btcentralplus.com)
14:05.13GAN800and there still haven't been noticeable improvements in the site performance even though we supposedly have new hardware
14:05.19Jaffarn to article, it shows my ip
14:05.20GAN800sighs.
14:05.28JaffaAh, that's now DB problems *cough*
14:06.17GAN800and I'd say 'Just make it work already'
14:06.44GAN800However much money Nokia needs to throw at it to make it work. . . .
14:07.12GAN800How far gone is the 100 Days now?
14:07.18l7what db problems?
14:07.23crashanddiethey didn't change shit on the website
14:07.33crashanddieand if they did, they need to fire the sysadmins
14:08.37GAN800l7, supposedly the performance bottleneck is now the db machine.
14:08.45crashanddiesolmumaha, don't hit the return button
14:08.51crashanddiesolmumaha, refresh the page
14:09.02*** join/#maemo orangey (n=orangey@dsl-67-55-1-71.acanac.net)
14:09.47orangeyhey all!
14:10.07crashanddieby
14:10.09crashanddiee
14:10.12orangeyIs it in any way possible to make a telephone call with a nokia n810?
14:10.16orangeyor any maemo, I guess..
14:10.35orangeyI mean using a GSM modem of some kind accessible to maemo
14:10.42crashanddieno
14:10.49Jaffaorangey: Not directly. Only using SIP or SkypeOut etc.
14:11.01orangeyJaffa: fair enough.
14:11.28orangeyI think my n810 is nearly perfect. The only thing that would make it sublime would be cell capabilities.
14:11.38orangeyplus or minus usable GPS : )
14:12.21crashanddieplus or minus?
14:12.22GAN800still cannot fathom why anybody would want to hold one of these bricks to their face.
14:12.34orangeycrashanddie: as in "it doesn't matter either way"
14:13.12crashanddieGAN800, apple effect
14:13.34crashanddie"Finger it, then put your face on it"
14:13.39GAN800iPhone's still way smaller.
14:14.00crashanddiehmm, I'm sorry for what I just said
14:14.10crashanddieit was way less ambiguous when I thought it
14:14.26GAN800Ha
14:15.41crashanddieqnyqay
14:15.43crashanddieok
14:15.49crashanddieanyway, back to work
14:17.54*** join/#maemo bergie (n=bergie@dhcp-45-80.nomad.chalmers.se)
14:18.54GAN800bergie, when's karma gonna work again?
14:19.07bergieGAN800: next week
14:19.20bergieI was supposed to do it last Thu but then there was a medical emergency :-/
14:20.33GAN800Oh, sorry to hear that.
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14:25.50sven-tekHi! i installed jalimo for a java program. From the error i get starting it, i found that the package classpath-gtk is missing. But its not in the repository. By chance, anyone here familiar with this?
14:26.21JaffaI installed jalimo-swt-example and it Just Worked[TM]
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14:35.33RST38hsven: Install one of the examples - it should install all the necessary stuff
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14:43.48camel_liuhi, everyone!
14:43.55johnxhi
14:44.07camel_liu:)
14:44.22camel_liuI'm new in Maemo.
14:45.55camel_liuI want know how to install package librsvg2-2 in scratchbox from maemo.org extras repository.
14:47.47*** join/#maemo molkko (n=username@a91-156-63-86.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
14:47.48camel_liuHow to install a package in scratchbox from a special repository?
14:48.29johnxin scratchbox, edit /etc/apt/sources.list (or maybe /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-<something>
14:49.00johnxyou can find the information you need to add in any .install file for a package in extras
14:49.25camel_liuadd that repository to sources.list?
14:49.32johnxcorrect
14:49.36johnxthat should do it
14:49.59camel_liuthen? use apt-get?
14:50.04johnxyup
14:51.37GeneralAntillesAhh, the explosive sound of a car accident.
14:52.50johnxheh...I'm thousands of miles away from mine. is that outside where you are GeneralAntilles?
14:53.33camel_liuCan I list the content of a repository in scratchbox?
14:53.53*** join/#maemo lool (i=lool@pig.zood.org)
14:54.00GeneralAntillesThere's a big road about 500' outside my window.
14:54.11johnxyou can list the contents of all repos I think
14:54.16johnxsome apt-cache command
14:54.30GeneralAntillesSome idiot in a WRX seems to have smacked into the back of an Accord.
14:54.49johnx4wd makes you go faster, not stop faster :)
14:54.54GeneralAntillesEhehe
14:55.15GeneralAntillesCrash, then the squealing tires.
14:55.17camel_liujohnx, I'll try it. Thanks.
14:55.27GeneralAntillesGuess they didn't account for the wet roads.
14:55.27lopzhola
14:55.35johnxit's awesome when people in 4wd SUVs try to drive in the snow
14:55.43johnxcamel_liu, apt-cache dumpavail | less
14:55.45Kegetyscrash first, then brake? :P
14:56.03johnxprobably the accord had his brakes on?
14:56.09GeneralAntillesKegetys, more like the sound of the Accord stealing all of the Subaru's energy.
14:56.10GeneralAntillesYeah
14:56.45RST38hjohnx: I have driven my CRV in the snow. Drives just fine, as long as you know what you are doing
14:56.47BugBluehehe
14:56.58BugBluefinally compiling kismet with pcap support
14:57.04GeneralAntillesCR-V comes in 4WD?
14:57.05BugBluejust patched the source that GPS will work
14:57.14qwerty12with tz1's patch?
14:57.19RST38hGeneral: It i AWD
14:57.23johnxRST38h, I guess I should say unskilled people who think 4wd is a replacement for experience
14:57.37RST38hjohnx: I am not particularly skilled, just careful (most of the time)
14:58.09johnxyeah, I'm real careful in snow, except in open parking lots where I know where the curbs are
14:58.13GeneralAntillesYeah, it's not that 4WD can't drive in snow, it's just that idiots tend to thing certain automobile features can save them from anything.
14:58.17BugBlueqwerty12: no not yet... I'm playing
14:58.26GeneralAntilleshas yet to drive in snow.
14:58.48GeneralAntillesRain I can do, though!
14:58.51qwerty12BugBlue: Ah, ok. I should recompile aircrack-ng from the latest svn but that means I have to set up an cs2008 toolchain :/
14:59.03johnxjust a matter of drive slower than you think you should, leave lots of space, love your ABS like you never have before
15:00.08BugBluemm
15:00.13BugBluejust lost my ssh connection with my nokia
15:00.18BugBlueI guess kismet does work
15:00.23RST38hhad to drive out from about 30cm of snow in CRV - it looks and feels like a speedboat but runs
15:00.31johnx"work" is putting it a little strongly
15:00.47BugBluelet's take a look at the device
15:00.49RST38h50cm stop it dead - it is just stuck
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15:00.53johnxloves his little subaru wagon
15:01.12johnxbiggest problem is an open diff in the rear :/
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15:01.25RST38hjohnx: Justy? =)
15:01.46johnxRST38h, 96 impreza outback sport
15:02.31RST38hah
15:02.38RST38halmost bought that one
15:03.33johnxgood year for that car, before they made them huge and heavy, also the 96 was the only year with a 2.2L that was non-interference
15:05.00RST38hI got spooked by that air intake in front of the windshield
15:05.10johnxthe scoopy thing?
15:05.20johnxthat was a 97 feature :)
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15:05.45RST38hThen it was the '97 model as I ended up buying '97 CRV
15:06.01johnxit's for uhm...cooling something or uhm...increasing the aerodynamic profile :/
15:06.18johnxlooks fugly, blocks wind, not attached to anything (AFAIK) on a non-turbo subaru
15:06.19mardi__getting cool air to the small intercooler
15:06.28mardi__on turbo model
15:06.45RST38hjohnx: I suspect it is for ventingfumes
15:07.01johnxwhile you're in reverse?
15:07.03RST38hbecause older subarus had that oil burnout problem
15:07.32johnxyeah, that's why I stayed away from the EA82 engines
15:07.41RST38hjohnx: maybe it scoops air and blows fumes down under? =)
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15:08.21johnxRST38h, so it can come in around the gear shift? :D
15:08.35RST38hkinda =)
15:09.16RST38hI once did work for the guy whose 87 (?) Legacy started smoking every time he reached 40mph
15:09.30RST38hIt also looked exactly like 84 Camry =)
15:09.32johnxthat would be an EA82 I believe
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15:13.49mardi__engine has an undertray, doubt fumes would get out underneath
15:14.07RST38hthey got out up front though
15:14.35johnxmmmm...fumes
15:15.20RST38hbtw, Subaru is absolutely hated by mechanics =)
15:15.26johnxha
15:15.29johnxI believe it
15:15.36johnxI don't look forward to working on mine
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15:18.28RST38hwonders which one is more trouble: Subaru or LuAZ
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15:21.36RST38hOne has got weird engine, another has got weird transmission
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15:24.51johnxgive me a RWD car with an I6 any day...
15:26.08GAN800Mmmm
15:26.22GAN800It's too bad RWD is dead
15:26.32RST38hnot yet
15:26.35johnxif you want something new: yes.
15:26.41johnxwell, BMW still does it
15:26.42RST38hSee Toyota Avensis for example
15:27.00johnxreally, still using a 2JZ?
15:27.25johnxerr...no?
15:28.01johnxFWD I4...
15:29.06RST38hReally? Last time I checked (2 years ago?) it was RWD
15:30.33johnxmaybe a different toyota
15:31.45GAN800I'm still pulling for a new RWD Corolla
15:31.46johnxheh
15:31.51RST38hwhat do you need rwd for?
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15:31.56johnxpeople have been doing that for 20 years
15:32.03camel_liuwhen I run 'apt-get update', there're something 'Failed to fetch'.  Not all, and just a few. Why?
15:32.15johnxcamel_liu, warnings or errors?
15:32.30GAN800Two words: torque steer
15:32.31camel_liuI have to download them through browser
15:32.41johnxalso, is it the thing you just added?
15:33.18camel_liuNo, includes something old
15:33.53johnxcould you put the error up on pastebin?
15:33.53camel_liuwhen I install Maemo SDK, this happen once.
15:34.28camel_liupastebin? I have been there. Where?
15:34.44johnx~pastebin
15:34.44infobot[~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://www.rafb.net/paste
15:34.48camel_liuI'm a freshman in Maemo
15:35.00johnxcopy the whole output of apt-get update to pastebin :)
15:35.14johnxthat way we can see what's going on
15:35.32camel_liuwait a moment
15:38.51camel_liuError with post: Sorry, your post tripped our spam filter - let us know if you think this could be improved
15:40.04johnxeep
15:40.17johnxtry a different pastebin I guess?
15:41.55GeneralAntillesStupid Obama idiots making me get up off the couch to answer the door. . . .
15:42.39RST38hDoesn't that reduce his chances of success? =)
15:42.54GeneralAntillesI don't need anybody telling me who to vote for, thanks.
15:43.11camel_liuWhy? Should I register to post the code at pasterbin?
15:43.12johnxsome people do :)
15:44.00johnxcamel_liu, you shouldn't need to register. just pastebin.ca maybe
15:45.11GeneralAntillesJaffa, I wonder what ossi1967's definition of a "touch based OS" is. . . .
15:45.11camel_liuDone! http://pastebin.ca/1236505
15:45.13RST38hGeneral: Put a sign up - "Political campaigners will be shot, dismembered, diced, and fed to hamsters"
15:45.42GeneralAntillesHehe
15:45.53GeneralAntillesI wouldn't have gotten up at all if I weren't expecting a FedEx package today.
15:47.27johnxI don't have scratchbox setup right now. Can someone comment on camel_liu's error message?
15:49.34RST38hthis is not an error message
15:49.46RST38hit is a warning that some repos are down
15:50.43johnxthe file is retrieavable in a browser. Is this temporary? or is there a workaround?
15:51.08camel_liuI can downnload them through firefox however!
15:51.32johnxsame here. obviously apt isn't handling "302 found" correctly
15:51.47johnxbut at the same time, the repository shouldn't be returning 302 found
15:55.54RST38hit should come up
15:56.01RST38hsooner or later
15:56.10camel_liuWhen I install maemo SDK at first time, this issue suffered me three days. One file is always failed to fetch. I tried everything, including dns resolving and reinstalling the whole system. The final mothed is downloading that file through browser and open the .gz. Save it as what name it should be and where it should be.
15:56.34RST38hThe weird thing is, I also installed Maemo SDK and did not need this step
15:56.58RST38hdidn't apt-get anything - the thing installed and just worked.
15:57.57johnxfrom wget on the command line it's giving me 200 OK
15:58.45johnxcamel_liu, outside of scratchbox, could you try downloading one of the Packages.gz files with wget?
15:58.49camel_liuI follewed the reference manual, the auto install .sh is stop at update, so I have to update list manually
15:59.14johnxcamel_liu, you didn't do anything wrong I think. it appears to be some problem with maemo.org
15:59.25camel_liuyes, I can get it with wget just in scratchbox!
16:00.19johnxcamel_liu, when you use wget on the line that says "HTTP request sent, awaiting response" what does it say? 200 OK? or something else?
16:01.50camel_liunew post including wget info, see http://pastebin.ca/1236512
16:02.23camel_liuHTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found
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16:03.11johnxok, looks like one of the mirrors of maemo.org is returning 302 found...
16:03.25johnxit doesn't do that here, but it also resolves to a different address
16:03.53camel_liubut we cannot control which mirror it choosed, can we?
16:04.21johnxhang on a sec
16:05.17camel_liuwget can resolve to another one, but apt-get cannot, right?
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16:05.52johnxno, wget handles the redirect correctly
16:06.24johnxon my computer it is accessing a different mirror. That's probably the case for other people too
16:06.36RST38hcamel_liu: Have you considered using SB2 instead? =)
16:06.42RST38hsmiles satanically
16:06.47*** join/#maemo lopz (n=gentoo-d@unaffiliated/lopz)
16:06.56qwerty12SB2 can burn in hell!
16:06.59johnxRST38h, won't help
16:07.01qwerty12MUAHAHAHAHA
16:07.21RST38hSB2 is at home there!
16:07.28camel_liuapt-get cannot redirect correctly?
16:07.35RST38hjohnx: I do not remember SB2 ever doing this
16:07.39qwerty12douses SB2 with water. Drown bitch!
16:07.50RST38hOn the other hand, I do not remember SB doing that either =(
16:08.05johnxcamel_liu, yes. but the bug is that the repository shouldn't be redirecting
16:08.29johnxRST38h, apt doesn't handle 302 redirects. the maemo.org mirror he connects to is redirecting. Yors isn't
16:08.46johnxRST38h, it's a location based thing. Moving would help. :) So would fixing the repository server...
16:08.50RST38hjohnx: No, I mean I do not remember it running apt-get during install at all
16:09.01johnxRST38h, it did. you missed it :)
16:09.04RST38hWait wait....
16:09.18RST38hHe cannot move of course. But he can edit his hosts file to point to the correct mirror
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16:09.52camel_liuIn maemo-sdk-install_4.1.1.sh, at the end, it runs apt-get
16:09.57johnxyeah, that might work. it would be best to just get this cleared up so other people don't run into it. I'm sure it's not intended behavior
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16:12.13camel_liuI've slept only 4 hours every these three days to install maemo. Just because of this issue.
16:12.58camel_liuWhich hosts file should I edit to point to the correct mirror?
16:13.30johnxinside scratchbox, edit /etc/hosts
16:13.32johnxadd this line:
16:13.50johnx210.150.253.248     repository.maemo.org
16:13.53johnxthat *might* work
16:14.26GAN800Doubt it
16:14.55johnxGAN800, better ideas. Before you ask, yes I'm filing a bug
16:15.48GAN800No, but s/repository.maemo.org/$akamai mirror/ doesn't work for http directory listings.
16:16.50qwerty12That reminds me, nokia people should get rid of files not needed: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/akamai.diff ...
16:17.05RST38hcan apt-get be configured to use a proxy?
16:17.16BugBlueoke my kismet does work nicely :D
16:17.23johnxRST38h, yes
16:17.24BugBlueand it doesn't even destroy my wireless anymore
16:17.41johnxBugBlue, does it actually produce proper results?
16:17.58RST38hthen the plan-b solution would be to make it run through a US-based proxy
16:18.00johnxcamel_liu, where are you?
16:18.00qwerty12johnx: I've had kismet running for 24h successfully
16:18.03BugBluejohnx: it does
16:18.20camel_liuChina
16:18.21johnxqwerty12, I did too, but it returned lots of phantom results when checked against my zaurus
16:18.21BugBluetime to run around the village here after some more configuring
16:18.48qwerty12johnx: + I was able to get the WEP key of the network I was dumping packets from
16:19.02camel_liuThe number of files that failed to fetch is not constant.
16:19.44johnxdoes the IP address of server change?
16:20.25camel_liuno, just  61.200.81.143
16:21.49melmothi have a daemon that i can start with /etc/init.d/servicescript start. I use update-rc.d so it should start for runlevel 2,3,4 and 5 (S90). But "it does not work".
16:22.22melmothany idea of where i could look ? any package known to start a daemon at startup so i can look how it s done there ?
16:22.46johnxmelmoth, is it symlinked into /etc/rc2.d as Snndaemon
16:22.53johnxwhere nn is the order
16:23.21melmothyep , it is.
16:23.27qwerty12melmoth: You shouldn't need to start it for runlevel 3 & 4
16:25.51camel_liuhow to resolve '302 Found'? Just manually fetch them one by one?
16:26.26RST38hyou may configure apt-get to use a US-based proxy or something
16:26.34johnxcamel_liu, can you use a proxy? I'm filing a bug report so that it can be fixed properly,
16:27.09melmothlet see if it works better with 99 instead of 90 as the order
16:27.19camel_liuhow to use a proxy in apt-get?
16:28.18RST38hhttp://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32708
16:28.52johnxfirst try this:
16:29.23johnxexport http_proxy=http://some-proxy:8080
16:29.45johnxreplace some-proxy with the real name, and 8080 with whatever port
16:30.28BugBlueit seems that the output from gpsd/the gps driver changed between maemo 4.0 and 4.1
16:30.46camel_liuBut I have no US-based proxy :(
16:33.10RST38hcamel_ Google search for "http proxies" ? =)
16:33.16RST38hNo?
16:33.32camel_liuno, but I'll try
16:40.20johnxcamel_liu, do you already connect through a proxy?
16:41.17melmothHmm, actually, the daemon starts, but it dies because of dbus: cannot open /var/lib/dbus/machine-id . Looks like i should wait untill the whole desktop environment is started.
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16:41.30johnxI am testing proxies inside China and they seem to work fine :)
16:42.33qwerty12melmoth: hmm, if your daemon is running as root, either prefix it with run-standalone or put this in the postinst of your program:
16:42.34qwerty12if [ ! -e /var/lib/dbus/machine-id ]; then
16:42.34qwerty12dbus-uuidgen --ensure=/var/lib/dbus/machine-id
16:42.34qwerty12fi
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16:43.58camel_liujohnx, is 'export http_proxy=' the parameter of apt-get?
16:44.04melmothhmmm.. So, it should not do that if it run as user ? Let s try that, it does not need to be root in the first place.
16:44.12qwerty12melmoth: yep
16:44.22johnxexport http_proxy=foo:8080
16:44.24johnxapt-get update
16:44.45johnxcamel_liu, separate commands
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16:44.59*** join/#maemo MangoFusion_ (n=jamesu@host86-162-121-81.range86-162.btcentralplus.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
16:44.59*** join/#maemo hellwolf (n=hellwolf@a83-132-28-51.cpe.netcabo.pt) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
16:44.59*** join/#maemo fredix (n=fred@fredix.nodecast.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]
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16:48.06*** join/#maemo mlpug (n=username@a91-156-63-86.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
16:48.47camel_liuhow can I validate a proxy? ping?
16:49.17johnxtell me the proxy and I'll try it :)
16:49.42camel_liu208.62.125.146:80 from http://www.proxy4free.com/page1.html
16:50.49johnxnot working here. try 128.112.139.97:3127
16:52.16camel_liuErr http://repository.maemo.org diablo/sdk Release.gpg
16:52.16camel_liu<PROTECTED>
16:52.50johnxI think you might have typed something wrong
16:52.52camel_liuErr http://repository.maemo.org diablo/sdk/free Packages
16:52.53camel_liu<PROTECTED>
16:53.39camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > export http_proxy=128.112.139.97:3127
16:53.40camel_liu[sbox-DIABLO_X86: ~] > apt-get update
16:54.13johnxok, that's right
16:54.14johnxhmmm
16:55.05johnxfails here too, but try wget at least
16:56.23*** join/#maemo Kegetys (i=kegetys@host-212-149-168-115.kpylaajakaista.net)
16:56.27camel_liuhow can I disable the 'export http_proxy='?
16:56.46johnxunset http_proxy
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17:07.22Stskeepscamel_liu: if you have repo issues from installing sdk, get the new .sh from the page where you get it, it should be fixed
17:07.55johnxStskeeps, issues with "302 found" ?
17:08.07Stskeepspossibly yeah
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17:08.42camel_liuI installed sdk.
17:09.11camel_liuwhat i want know is to install librsvg2-2
17:09.19Stskeepsah
17:09.28camel_liunow
17:10.03*** join/#maemo guillermo (n=guillerm@176.pool85-49-208.dynamic.orange.es)
17:10.35camel_liuI follow the reference manual to try monkey bubble
17:10.57*** join/#maemo Tuco (n=Y@unaffiliated/tuco)
17:11.40camel_liuit needs librsvg2-2, which is available in maemo.org extras repository
17:12.00camel_liuso I add that repo to sources.list
17:12.16camel_liuand try apt-get update
17:12.43camel_liuthen get '302 Found'.
17:14.26camel_liuWhen I install sdk, this also happened to me. I resolved it by downloading the failed file through browser, opening and saving it as needed.
17:16.31camel_liuThis is what caused Err in .sh: $__scratchbox/login apt-get -o Acquire::http::TimeOut=15 -o Acquire::http::Retries=2 update
17:17.10camel_liuStskeeps, new .sh changed this?
17:17.39*** join/#maemo chelli (n=chelli@p54B869EA.dip.t-dialin.net)
17:18.32camel_liuProblem with apt-get or repo server?
17:22.28camel_liujohnx, I can download ,gz from 202.158.161.39:9203, any help?
17:22.38johnxwith wget?
17:22.52johnxdoes it give you 302 found at all?
17:22.53camel_liufirefox
17:23.22johnxfirefox understands redirects. 302 found is a redirect.
17:23.30*** join/#maemo vbatts (n=vbatts@cardinal.lizella.net)
17:23.54camel_liuwget also understands.
17:23.59johnxyes
17:24.18johnxdoes wget say "302 Found" at some point during the download?
17:24.37camel_liuwhy not apt-get? It's not only for maemo, it's for ubuntu too
17:24.52johnxI don't know. ask the people who wrote apt-get
17:26.11camel_liuyes, wget say it, but finally redirect to another one
17:27.29RST38hso, using a proxy did not work out?
17:28.18camel_liujohnx has given me a proxy, and did not work out
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17:30.00RST38hok
17:30.02johnxcamel_liu, try one more thing. Add this to /etc/apt.conf: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/fedora-35/how-to-set-up-proxy-in-apt-gets-apt.conf-265793/#post1351786
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17:33.06camel_liuapt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy=128.112.139.97:3127 update
17:33.23johnxsure, that should work
17:33.26johnxdoes it work?
17:33.26camel_liudoes not work too
17:33.34johnx302 found or other error?
17:33.53camel_liu40% [Connecting to 3127]
17:34.05camel_liu<PROTECTED>
17:34.10johnxok, that's not the right syntax
17:34.17johnxdoesn't work here either
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17:35.34RST38hthis looks like config file syntax
17:35.38RST38hgimme a moment
17:36.01johnxI need to get some sleep. sorry guys :(
17:36.15johnxgood luck
17:36.21RST38hapt.conf: Acquire::http::Proxy "http://repository-cache:3142";
17:36.26RST38hjohnx: good night
17:36.26camel_liuThank you so much
17:36.30GAN800Ugh, I can hear the marching band practice from a mile away.
17:36.35camel_liugood night
17:36.37RST38hthe above line has to be inserted into the apt.conf
17:36.41johnx:)
17:37.03RST38hGAN: Lucky. I can hear the traveling circus performance 300 meters from here
17:37.31RST38hOne would think that the end of October is where they should find some [warm] home and close up for the winter...
17:37.48GAN800Sounded like one of my neighbors holding a drum circle at first.
17:38.29RST38hHave they at least got any cute girls? =)
17:40.32RST38hOk, try apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy=http://128.112.139.97:3127/ update
17:40.42RST38hAnd see what happens
17:41.13camel_liuI'm trying
17:41.30camel_liuseems to work
17:41.35RST38hall righty
17:43.53camel_liuDone!
17:44.19camel_liubut http://repository-cache:3142/ cannot
17:44.32RST38hthis is just a sample url
17:44.45RST38hdo not use it, use the one that ends with :3127
17:46.15camel_liu3127 Done!  When johnx said "ok, that's not the right syntax"
17:46.31RST38hI have given you the correct syntax
17:46.33*** join/#maemo hrhr (n=local@131.13.117.87.donpac.ru)
17:46.33camel_liuI began to try the right one
17:47.05camel_liuyes! RST38h gave the same one! Thanks a lot!
17:47.14*** join/#maemo MangoFusion (n=jamesu@host86-162-121-81.range86-162.btcentralplus.com)
17:47.29camel_liuBut johnx just left
17:47.55RST38hIt is long past midnight where he lives
17:48.13camel_liuJust a few seconds he can get the right answer
17:48.19johnxhmm?
17:49.12qwerty12_N800Hmm, by pinging johnx, he wakes up from his sleep :)
17:49.45RST38hcruel
17:49.54johnxthis works for me -> apt-get -o Acquire::http::Proxy=http://128.112.139.97:3127/ update
17:51.06camel_liuHe has spared so much time with me about this issue. It's a pity that the right answer comes out just seconds after his leaving.
17:51.06camel_liuOh, you're still here!
17:51.06johnxI'm just glad it worked
17:51.11Stskeepsjohnx: disabling beeps when your nick comes up is a basic thing to be able to sleep :>
17:51.26*** join/#maemo t_s_o (n=tso@77.84-49-129.nextgentel.com)
17:51.29johnxStskeeps, yeah, but I might *miss something* O_o
17:51.33johnxreally sleeps
17:51.52camel_liujohnx, Thanks so much for your effort and time on it.
17:52.16camel_liuIt's my first day of IRC
17:52.31camel_liuAnd this is the right place.
17:53.46RST38hshould probably release something over the weekend
17:54.08camel_liuWhy couldn't find package librsvg2?
17:54.50camel_liu<PROTECTED>
17:55.32camel_liuIs it in extra repo of maemo?
17:59.45camel_liuThe reference manual says "Start from librsvg installation. One version is available in maemo.org extras repository."
18:02.19*** join/#maemo fiekia (n=user@c-71-206-181-231.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
18:05.43camel_liuIs the package librsvg2-2 in maemo.org extras repository?
18:07.01solmumahacamel_liu: try apt-cache search librsvg
18:07.48camel_liunothing returned
18:08.36solmumahaseems it's in chinook extras
18:08.41camel_liuWhen I try 'fakeroot apt-get install librsvg2-2', it returned 'E: Couldn't find package librsvg2-2'
18:09.10camel_liuI followed Diablo's reference manual
18:09.21lcukcamel_liu, would you like me to download the file, print it out place it on a wooden table, photograph it, import it, fax it to you to be imported into Word where you can OCR it and recover the original file?   it will probably be quicker than your current attempt
18:10.35RST38hmoo, lcuk
18:10.42lcukhiya rst
18:11.26qwerty12_N800lcuk, could you do that for me please
18:11.31JaffaGeneralAntilles: There's one person outstanding who thumbed down krisse's post but hasn't hearted my post ;-)
18:11.33lcukof course qwerty12_N800
18:11.47qwerty12_N800hehe
18:11.53camel_liuI'm a freshman not only in maemo, but also in Linux. In fact, I just use Linux (Ubuntu) 4 days and the same with maemo.
18:12.30lcukcamel_liu, i really hope your day gets better with maemo - i realise its first day, but most of the time things are smoother than this
18:12.52lcukkicks the internet
18:13.48*** join/#maemo jurop88 (n=jure@213-140-6-99.ip.fastwebnet.it)
18:13.50*** part/#maemo jurop88 (n=jure@213-140-6-99.ip.fastwebnet.it)
18:14.16AstralStormlcuk: ouch! why did you kick me?
18:14.47lcukheh cos you wont download fast enough
18:15.08RST38his still deciding whether to thumb down Jaffa's post or heart it
18:15.29JaffaRST38h: thumb it down then ;-)
18:15.37JaffaKarma's broken atm anyway
18:15.41RST38hJaffa: Err on the pessimistic side? =)
18:15.51camel_liuI try to follow ervery instruction of the reference. But there're so many things beyond it.
18:15.54JaffaRST38h: life sucks ;-)
18:16.08RST38hI mean, it is obvious that nobody needs another Maemo netbook
18:16.18RST38hBut the reasons sound wrong
18:16.29*** join/#maemo mardi__ (n=mardi_@host81-146-39-76.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net)
18:16.52JaffaFeel free to comment. I'd've not bothered posting at all if krisse's blog accepted comments; and it was a somewhat rushed post.
18:17.23lcuki would like to see nokia/maemo branded software running on the desktop as a companion/manager app for my handheld devices
18:17.23RST38hI think that the whole reason why we have a "netbook" is because ASUS marketing/engineering lacks imagination
18:17.24AstralStormRST38h: but we'll buy the next one anyway if it's so much better
18:17.32lcukto do the stuff the tablet IS weaker at
18:17.53lcukdesktop == anything bigger than a tablet
18:17.55AstralStormlcuk: and it still fails that due to small screen
18:18.00camel_liuIt's 2:16 a.m., and I'd better to go to bed. Thanks erveryone here. I experience my first day in IRC channel, and it's so good and better than google.
18:18.02RST38hSo they took their old S100/S200 subnotebook model (very small), cheapened it down to <$400 and sold it with Linux
18:18.08AstralStormlcuk: almost, tiny laptop is fairly portable
18:18.21lcukAstralStorm, but a small laptop is not a tablet
18:18.22AstralStormmy categorization is this:
18:18.27RST38hAs soon as people found out you could run WinXP on that thing, they did and ASUS had to oblige
18:18.59RST38hSo, the rule of thumb is: If it looks like a laptop, people will EXPECT it to run Windows and Office, no matter how slowly
18:19.06lcukpeople dont expect all of itunes interface on their ipod - itunes allows scope for easier management of media than a tiny handheld can give
18:19.23AstralStormwearable pc < cellphone < tablet < ... some hole ... < netbook/subnotebook < ... large hole ... < portable desktop < desktop
18:19.25JaffaRST38h: indeed. I've still got a Psion netBook in the drawer next to me
18:19.30RST38hThis means death to Moblin and other mobile Linux initiatives on netbooks
18:19.40RST38hJaffa: But it is no laptop, it is DIFFERENT
18:19.45Jaffalcuk: absolutely
18:19.46RST38hSame goes for Nokia E90
18:20.00RST38hOr the original Nokia 7710 with what later became Maemo
18:20.09AstralStormRST38h: except E90 is a cellphone :>
18:20.11JaffaYou just have to look at the failure of the Foleo to know that people want their "netbooks" to be mini-laptops
18:20.13lcukjaffa :) your media encoder needs a home ;)
18:20.21AstralStormit's much more portable
18:20.29AstralStormnow, iPhone broke some stereotypes
18:20.29RST38hAstral: yea, among other things :)
18:20.39RST38hiPhone is really a phone, just well made
18:20.46AstralStormyes
18:20.56AstralStormwhile n8x0 is closer to a fully fledged PC
18:20.58RST38hJaffa: Let us not bring up Foleo or ANYTHING coming from Palm, ok?
18:21.10RST38hThese folks are suicidally stupid, period.
18:21.11lcuk+lurk mode, back later
18:21.11Jaffa:)
18:21.12AstralStormdrop in abiword and gnustep... and you could even do some text tasks
18:21.28AstralStormnot that it'd be convenient
18:21.32AstralStormmore like a stopgap measure
18:21.44RST38hAstral: The moment you claim it is a "PC", all the reviewers out there will ask if it runs Office
18:21.50Jaffalcuk: maybe not on an N900 (although unless it ships with oodles of storage [and 32GB had been hinted at], transcoding is still useful for saving space)
18:21.53RST38hAstral: So, Nokia never claims it to be a PC
18:22.00AstralStormwhich is good
18:22.04AstralStormit's not one (yet)
18:22.16AstralStormuntil it gets 256 MB ram and a shrunk-down OOo
18:22.18RST38hSo the idea is not to put Maemo into another small notebook
18:22.33AstralStormor a comparable office suite (gnome-office anyone?)
18:22.34RST38hIt is to put Maemo (or a similar setup) into something like a StarTrek datapad
18:22.42AstralStormyes
18:22.45AstralStormthis is a niche
18:22.47RST38hAnd see if this datapad can be effectively used
18:22.51lcukjaffa, transcoding is still a very practical thing to consider - especially when you consider that HD episodes and movies are here
18:22.54AstralStormalthough it does really well as a laptop
18:22.55JaffaAstralStorm: and OOo will require a heavily updated UI. Again, hints from the EPOC R5 office apps would be useful.
18:22.59RST38hSmall notebooks are also a niche so there is nothing wrong with it
18:23.01AstralStormand mediocre as datapad
18:23.11RST38hThe question is whether this "niche" can be expanded
18:23.17JaffaRST38h: it'd be cool to have a slightly larger, but thinner and lighter tablet which is just like a Star Trek PADD
18:23.20Jaffalcuk: that's true
18:23.28AstralStormJaffa: no, larger wouldn't be pocketable
18:23.32AstralStormwhich means failure
18:23.32RST38hJaffa: Or four iPhones glued together ;)
18:23.33lcukand battery life
18:23.41*** join/#maemo matt_c (n=mcroydon@137.147.45.66.cm.sunflower.com)
18:23.43AstralStormunless we get a foldable screen
18:23.49RST38hBig but thin is ok
18:24.00RST38hit is just a little bit dfferent niche
18:24.02lcuka doublehigh :D  http://liqbase.net/double_tiny.JPG
18:24.20AstralStormRST38h: there are such tablets on market already
18:24.25AstralStormfairly expensive though
18:24.30RST38hAstral: Yes, but none are practical
18:24.32lcukis reinserting networking code now :)
18:24.40AstralStormyes... because they're too large :>
18:24.48RST38hAstral: They usually come with an x86 and Windows, eat through their batteries in <4 hours
18:24.54AstralStormthat too
18:24.58RST38hAnd even although they are thin, the weight is too much
18:25.25AstralStormnext-gen Intel CPU will be nice though
18:25.29RST38hSo, make one <1cm thick and <500g in weight and make it run for 12 hours non stop
18:25.44AstralStormwhich means: make n810 with a bigger screen ;P
18:25.46RST38hAnd call it N999 or whatever
18:25.48JaffaAstralStorm: as an alongside product with the existingly sized tablets
18:26.04RST38hBetter yet: make them in several different sizes, just like datapads
18:26.06AstralStormmake it use 2 batteries (it will probably keep the weight still)
18:26.17AstralStormhaha, that is hard to mass produce
18:26.19RST38hthe UI should scale of course
18:26.25RST38hwhy is it hard to produce?
18:26.28AstralStormand it should make coffee
18:26.41RST38hYou have got a bunch of different standard LCD modules
18:26.44lcukno, it should have an interface to order coffee
18:26.51AstralStormyes, you can make like 3 sizes
18:26.53RST38hOrder several types of casing, use the same electronics
18:27.20RST38hIn order to enable comfortable touch typing, provide tactile feedback like Nokia does in 5800
18:27.26AstralStormI would like n900 to use space more efficiently
18:27.30JaffaThis larger tablet is, in some ways, what TechCrunch are allegedly trying to do.
18:27.34AstralStormn810 has a lot of spare
18:27.37RST38hi.e. make it click and bibrate a little
18:27.52AstralStorm(although cooling is a concern, so is weight)
18:27.53JaffaRST38h: PeterS hinted at haptic over coffee at the summit.
18:28.13AstralStormJaffa: hmmmmh
18:28.14RST38hJaffa: In 5800 they do it in a dead stupid way
18:28.16lcukthats a lie! there was no coffee at the summit, only beer! ;)
18:28.25RST38hno extra hw required, just using the vibration feature of the phone
18:28.40AstralStormRST38h: which eats a lot of power
18:29.00RST38hAstral: for very short amounts of time
18:29.12AstralStormnot really - it adds up
18:29.18*** join/#maemo eocanha (n=eocanha@84.78.85.64)
18:29.19RST38hAstral: and you can really just replace it with clicking
18:29.24AstralStormyup
18:29.24*** join/#maemo briand (n=brian@dsl018029.dyndsl.nettally.com)
18:29.25RST38hLess comfortabel but will do
18:29.38AstralStormclicking is there in n810 I think
18:29.46AstralStormwell, keyboard is good
18:29.53RST38hbut n810 virtual keyboard is too small
18:29.54AstralStormscreen can do sounds :>
18:30.00AstralStormvirtual? who needs virtual
18:30.02RST38hin bigger size you can make it much better
18:30.14AstralStormthere is a way to make a bigger one
18:30.16RST38hwell, I do not expect the datapad to have a real kbd
18:30.20AstralStormby making it a clamshell
18:30.22Jaffalcuk: this was at about 08:30 on the Saturday. I think people still had enough beer in their veins ;-)
18:30.32lcukheh
18:30.33AstralStormfoldable
18:30.42RST38hrollable maybe? ;)
18:30.59AstralStormnah, there's no way to strengthen such a keyboard
18:31.04RST38hor...mhmmm..screwable
18:31.04AstralStormit feels bad
18:31.16AstralStormwell, no
18:31.22RST38hI say just make a virtual keyboard on screen and forget aboutit
18:31.34RST38hif it is large and provides SOME feedback, most people will be ok
18:31.34AstralStormno, they are evil to type
18:31.39AstralStormand leave smudges
18:31.47AstralStormand have no ridges to find keys
18:31.48lcuktakes away estate - the 810 might not be perfect kb, but it means i have whole screen to myself
18:31.48RST38hfor desktop typing use BT keyboard and place device on a stand
18:32.08AstralStormactually, I even find Samsung U700 number keys nice
18:32.15AstralStormand they're flatter than n810's
18:32.16RST38hlcuk: I will not excuse Nokia for not including a decent d-pad upfront.
18:32.25RST38hNo way you can persuade me.
18:32.25AstralStormthey have ridges though
18:32.34AstralStormyes, it's crap
18:32.37lcukwouldnt try to  - i know everyone is different
18:32.42AstralStormthe dpad should be there
18:32.52AstralStormalternatively, two separate selectors
18:32.57AstralStormlike on some cell phones
18:32.58lcukmy nokia sits in a much larger form factor thing most of the time anyway - i have dpad always available
18:33.07AstralStormthere is enough space for 2 buttons and enter
18:33.12RST38hbut I guess with bigger touch screens you can provide all this stuff onscreen
18:33.20AstralStormand some slack space could be salvaged
18:33.27RST38hthey have to be really bigger though - something like 12" at least
18:33.38lcukasus eee touchscreen looks nice
18:33.42AstralStormRST38h: you can emulate a touchpad
18:33.50RST38hAStorm: I do. It sucks.
18:33.50AstralStormthat will work... call it a scrollpad
18:33.55RST38hWant to know why? =)
18:33.59AstralStormwhy?
18:34.03lcukblue maemo :) connect nokia to nokia
18:34.18RST38h1. No multitouch, so running+shooting does not work in games
18:34.24AstralStorm(what sucks is I have to tap twice to engage it first)
18:34.25RST38h2. Fingers cover 2/3 of the screen
18:34.30AstralStormyes
18:34.33Kegetysa small scroll wheel would be nice at the top edge of the device, propably wont happen though since the crappy touch screen keyboards etc. are "cool" now
18:34.37AstralStormbut we were talking about larger screen
18:34.46RST38h3. The screen in N8x0 is so damn fragile that pressing on it with your fingers is scary
18:34.50lcukwould have to be larger multitouch
18:34.53AstralStormyes, scroll wheel or scroll buttons even
18:35.05AstralStormRST38h: you haven't seen a fragile screen yet
18:35.10RST38hIf you give me a 12" solid screen with multitouch, it should be completely fine
18:35.11AstralStormthis one is actually fairly sturdy
18:35.25RST38hAStorm: I have, got one on my desk in the ICNexus devkit
18:35.31AstralStormI wany my ridges
18:35.44AstralStormI can't find keys w/o them and mispress
18:35.52AstralStormwe need something like M$ Surface 2
18:36.03AstralStormwith Z axis (limited, but enough)
18:36.05*** join/#maemo kkrusty (n=cache@5ad5f387.bb.sky.com)
18:36.12AstralStormeven 1-bit would be ok
18:36.23RST38hjust a better pressure sensitivity should be sufficient
18:36.41RST38hN8x0 appears to have just 3 levels - touched not touched, and touched with your beak, quickly
18:36.57lcukactually no, theres about 400  distinct levels
18:37.01lcukjust not much uses it
18:37.15lcukxsp library makes it available :)
18:37.29lcukbut its uncalibrated (though useful)
18:37.29Kegetysand judging from some drawing app I tried it doesnt seem very reliable
18:37.43RST38hNot having any woodpecker DNA, I have no use for those levels
18:37.52lcuklol
18:37.53Kegetysas in the sensitivity is entirely different depending on which part of the srceen you poke
18:37.55RST38hKegetys: exactly
18:38.17AstralStormyes
18:38.23AstralStormbecause it's uncalibrated
18:38.24AstralStorm:)
18:38.33lcukKegetys, without proper pressure calibration that will happen anyway
18:38.42lcukand no touchscreen does that ever anywhere
18:38.47AstralStormsomeone should write it
18:38.53lcuktemperature changes alter the differentials
18:39.02AstralStormwe have a temp sensor
18:39.03AstralStormuse it
18:39.04lcukso you could calibrate it right now and it would drift with use
18:39.18lcukbut the part of the screen under the cpu gets hotter
18:39.22AstralStormyes
18:39.23lcukand near the wifi
18:39.26AstralStormyou can correct for that
18:39.30AstralStormboth have temp. sensors
18:39.39lcukand if the battery is in use
18:39.45lcukor charging
18:39.48AstralStormdid I mention it's all known?
18:39.54AstralStormjust no one wrote it
18:40.04lcuktheres lots of things and for the fractional difference it would make its really not worth it
18:40.09AstralStorm(in part because there's no API)
18:40.33lcukyour fingers themselves give more variance than a tuned touch can clarify
18:40.45AstralStormwell, still better than not tuned
18:40.50lcukwe arent trying to do electron scanning with it
18:40.56AstralStormit will at least get 3-5 levels
18:41.10*** join/#maemo MangoFusion (n=jamesu@host86-162-121-81.range86-162.btcentralplus.com)
18:41.11AstralStormmaybe 6
18:41.18AstralStormwhich is nice :)
18:41.25lcuk3-5 levels of what? a touchscreen with over 500 levels
18:41.33AstralStormso what if you get to scale them?
18:41.42lcuki KNOW you cannot hold it at a particular level yourself
18:41.44AstralStormto reduce errors, you have to quantize
18:42.36RST38hGentlemen, N8x0 has uneven touchscreen sensitivity across the screen
18:42.44lcukwhat you are suggesting it like trying to grind a chalkboard to the preciion of a telescope mirror
18:42.49RST38hNothing temp related, just the way they solder those touch screens in
18:43.13AstralStormthat is mostly constant
18:43.22AstralStormwhich means it can be calibrated
18:43.23RST38hfor example, the right half of the screen in my 810 is noticeably less sensitive than the left side
18:43.27AstralStormyes, it is
18:43.32AstralStormhere too :)
18:43.46RST38hAStorm: I do not think it is a constant. We have got several tablets at work (few people bought them too)
18:43.49lcukmy right half works, but thats because ive worn the left half down :(
18:44.00lcuki cant use my touch on main nokia with fingers anymore
18:44.02AstralStormright bottom corner is the weakest here
18:44.02RST38hAnd, when looking at the screen surface, they all seem to be bent in slightly different ways
18:44.12RST38hAStorm: yep
18:44.21mariorzis there some way to get 3g internet with any of the tablets?
18:44.30lcukuse a 3g phone
18:44.31RST38hmariorz: Use a 3G phone as uplink
18:44.33AstralStormmariorz: yes, if you get a modem or a phone
18:44.40mariorzcool
18:44.41AstralStorm3g modem should work with external hub
18:45.10AstralStorm(assuming it works under Linux and you're not afraid of compiling the driver)
18:45.35AstralStorm*works in
18:45.36mariorzbut none of the tablets have any kind of port to connect a 3g modem directly?
18:45.41*** join/#maemo bef0rd (n=befr0d@190.68.12.98)
18:45.47RST38hasks the Green One to make MTS enable the 3G network before Christmas
18:45.51AstralStormmariorz: they have an USB hub
18:46.11AstralStormalthough with low current (up to 100 mA)
18:46.14RST38hIt is beyond bizarre: even freaking Belorussia has got 3G and we haven't
18:46.21AstralStormso you'll need an external powered hub
18:46.28AstralStormRST38h: poor you... which country?
18:46.32mariorzAstralStorm: cool, so i jsut need a usb 3g modem? such a thing exists right?
18:46.35RST38hAStorm: .RU
18:46.38AstralStormI just bought my 3.5G plan
18:46.40qwerty12_N800RST38h, kill beeline
18:46.42AstralStormahhh, explains it
18:46.47lcukmarcoil, or you could get an n810w which uses wimax
18:46.49AstralStormit's because of huge distances
18:46.50RST38hqwerty: ah, who cares about beeline
18:46.52lcukif thats available nearby
18:46.58RST38hbeeline isn't even planning it
18:47.00AstralStormexcept it usually isn't
18:47.15AstralStormwimax has to be specifically deployed
18:47.23RST38hAStorm: Doesn't explain shit. In many senses, local cell providers are better than rest of Europe
18:47.23AstralStorma good 3.5G modem will work on any cell network
18:47.29*** join/#maemo bilboed-tp (n=bilboed@216.239.45.19)
18:47.43AstralStormat worst with 2.5G GPRS
18:48.06mariorzno dice on the wimax here
18:48.10AstralStorm(maybe even plain old TDMA data call)
18:48.29AstralStormthat's the main advantage of cell networks - they have a large degree of backward compatibility
18:48.38RST38hTDMA won't work
18:48.46AstralStormit will if the modem supports it
18:48.53AstralStormit's the standard plain old data call
18:48.55RST38hI.e. data calling will work but TDMA will not
18:49.06AstralStormTDMA is data calling, or sth
18:49.09lcukmariorz, if you plan on roaming about - the usb modem idea is impractical, look for a phone with bluetooth and a modem that you can tether to
18:49.11AstralStormor am I mistaken?
18:49.13RST38hAStorm: AMPS
18:49.30RST38hAStorm: TDMA is a previous generation of GSM (which is also TDMA by nature BTW)
18:49.37AstralStormCDMA is GPRS/EDGE, W-CDMA is UMTS
18:49.39RST38hThe data calling over TDMA was called AMPS
18:49.43AstralStormand HSXPA
18:49.44RST38hAStorm: No
18:49.53RST38hhere is how it goes:
18:50.12RST38hCellular standard: TDMA, media access control: TDMA, data calls: AMPS
18:50.17mariorzlcuk: why is it impractical for roaming?
18:50.18AstralStormyes
18:50.26RST38hCellular standard: GSM, media access control: TDMA, data calls: GPRS, EDGE
18:50.32AstralStormlcuk: no, usb modems are tiny
18:50.41AstralStormand it will get smaller
18:50.46RST38hCellular standard: CDMA, media access control: CDMA, data calls: 1xRTT EVDO
18:50.47AstralStormthe only problem is the USB cable
18:50.48AstralStorm:)
18:50.55lcukbecause the usb cable has to stick out from behind the kickstand and its ungainly and will pop out and you have ugly thick wires in places you dont need them
18:51.01AstralStormRST38h: ahha
18:51.05AstralStormmy mistake
18:51.11RST38hCellular standard: UMTS (aka 3G), media access control: CDMA, data calls: HSDPA/HSUPA
18:51.40mariorzducktape takes care of that
18:51.45mariorzi kid
18:51.59RST38hOur local problem here was mainly with the political maneuring for 3G band going for years
18:52.13AstralStormahh, the usual junk
18:52.15RST38hToo many interests.
18:52.23AstralStormhere, they bought UMTS for a lot of PLN
18:52.38AstralStormit was expected to be used... sells fairly mediocre for now
18:52.42*** join/#maemo Kt_ (n=Kirsat@c-24-98-184-147.hsd1.ga.comcast.net)
18:52.44AstralStormbut is on the increase
18:52.54RST38hWhat are data rates?
18:53.11AstralStormup to 7.2Mb HSDPA
18:53.24AstralStormbut usually 2.4 is more like it
18:53.55AstralStormand not too many modems can do even that
18:54.10AstralStormso you get 1.sth Mb
18:54.18AstralStormthere's no HSUPA yet
18:54.24AstralStormso 384 kbps upload
18:54.37RST38hwhat are the prices though?
18:54.59AstralStorm30 Euro for 6GB flatrate + wifi hotspots of Orange
18:55.13RST38hUrgh...No wonder it is not being used much
18:55.25AstralStorm(there's also a tiny one at half the price, 1GB no hotspots)
18:55.32AstralStorm(and more expensive prepaid one)
18:55.44RST38his there ome price per MB?
18:55.53AstralStormfor prepaid, yes
18:56.04AstralStormfor postpaid, after the limit, you get bandwidth-cut
18:56.23RST38hah
18:56.41AstralStormand there's also standard cell-phone data rate which is prohibitively expensive
18:56.59RST38hThe e30 rate also sounds expensive
18:57.09AstralStorm0.07 ec / 100 KB is the standard (or so, it's 0.25 pln)
18:57.18AstralStorm0.07 Euro that it
18:57.23AstralStorm7 ec
18:57.55AstralStormprepaid is 0.03 PLN / 100 kb
18:57.56RST38hthat is rur24.5/MB
18:57.59RST38hyeek
18:58.13AstralStormpostpaid I'd have to calc
18:58.28RST38hprepaid is still rur10.5/mb
18:58.32AstralStormbut it depends on usage
18:58.53AstralStormpostpaid is actually cheaper than all of these
18:59.05AstralStormand by a wide margin
18:59.27RST38hyes but you are required to pay e30 :)
18:59.29AstralStormthe 30 Euro one amounts to 366 MB prepaid
18:59.49AstralStormand the 15 Euro one to 100 MB
18:59.51AstralStormor so
19:00.02RST38he15 sounds more realistic really
19:00.09AstralStormyes, but it's 1GB of transfer
19:00.12RST38hnobody is going to download movies over it anyway
19:00.23AstralStormenough for small data, but any actual usage will go over the limit
19:00.27RST38hand 1GB/month is sufficient for web browsing, chat, ssh, etc
19:00.30AstralStormwhy not? it's very fast :P
19:00.45AstralStormit's not sufficient for web browsing
19:00.52RST38hsmall screens, small storage, slow cpus, and it is probably not very fast when trasferring a 250MB movie
19:00.58AstralStormI grab 40-50 MB/day in web use
19:01.09AstralStormso, it's not that much
19:01.14RST38hAStorm: I grab <300MB/month :)
19:01.25AstralStormmultiply by 31 :>
19:01.44AstralStormI counted some light downloads
19:01.55AstralStormlike a PDF here, a larger image there
19:02.00RST38hah
19:02.04AstralStormthat was the average excluding yt and large downloads
19:02.07RST38hbtw, I have all ads disabled
19:02.17AstralStormads don't eat that much, I checked
19:02.26AstralStormone ad eats like 10-30 KB
19:02.48AstralStormif flash, it eats 300 KB, so disable that
19:03.19mariorzanyone recommend a cheap site selling the n810w?
19:03.19AstralStorman average web site grabs 150 KB
19:03.32RST38hmariorz: froogle.com
19:03.36AstralStorm:)
19:03.42RST38hAStorm: yes but you probably visit same sites anyway?
19:04.03AstralStormbut the most of the cost is not images
19:04.12AstralStormand n8x0 doesn't cache these well for some reason
19:04.19AstralStorm(maybe because mmc card is so slow?)
19:04.21mariorzwhat should i searh for? "nokia n810w"?
19:04.24mariorznada
19:04.24AstralStorm(or sd card)
19:04.33AstralStormmariorz: nokia n810 wimax
19:04.55mariorzahh, thanks
19:05.39AstralStormsome idiots sell it for $1000...
19:06.06AstralStormit'd have to be gold-plated or have some excellent gps receiver, spare batteries, car charger, mount, all whizbang
19:06.18AstralStormto be worth anywhere near that amount
19:06.26*** join/#maemo Pyrhos (n=PyrO@ANantes-158-1-64-176.w86-195.abo.wanadoo.fr)
19:06.35AstralStormmedian would be $450
19:06.36MangoFusiongold plated....hmm\
19:11.42AstralStormRST38h: there's a certain prepaid that is competitive
19:11.49AstralStormit costs $19 for 1GB
19:11.55AstralStormuhm, 20 PLN
19:12.10AstralStormwhich means 6 GB cost the same 30 Euro
19:12.18AstralStormbut you can grab less :)
19:12.42AstralStormPlay is running this stunt
19:13.53AstralStormso, if you only need like 1GB/mo, it will save you a lot of cash
19:15.22AstralStormunlike Orange's post-paid, it scales linearly (post-paid 12 GB costs 150 PLN, in comparison)
19:16.54*** join/#maemo behdad (n=behdad@cmr-208-124-151-218.cr.net.cable.rogers.com)
19:18.09*** join/#maemo datachaos (n=datachao@189.27.191.132.adsl.gvt.net.br)
19:18.54RST38hAStorm: Am I correct to assume that the average white-collar salary is e1000..e2500/month ?
19:19.16AstralStormcountry median is 2300 PLN/mo
19:19.28*** join/#maemo Tuco (n=Y@unaffiliated/tuco)
19:19.35AstralStormwhite collar is too diverse to specify
19:20.01AstralStormthey start from lowly teachers to very well-paid executives
19:20.05AstralStormand analysts
19:20.32AstralStormteachers earn under the average (excluding the top of their career)
19:20.34RST38hI mean computer programmers, low-to-middle level management, advertising guys, etc
19:20.52AstralStormit depends where, but in the capital, I'd expect 5000 PLN
19:21.03AstralStormjust shy of 2000 Euro
19:21.20AstralStormand that is a very well-paid job
19:21.26AstralStormas you can see, 2x average
19:21.47RST38hSo, e30 just for the data (given that you already have home connection) is too much, right?
19:21.58AstralStormit is a lot, but not really too much
19:22.11AstralStormfast net connections cost similar amount
19:22.13RST38hbtw does it include 3g voice? =)
19:22.14AstralStormand aren't mobile
19:22.21AstralStorm3g voice is the default now :P
19:22.33AstralStormif the phone supports 3G, it is used
19:22.40RST38hso e30/mo buys you voice *and* 6GB data?
19:22.42AstralStormas it's less expensive for the operator
19:22.46AstralStormnot exactly
19:22.57AstralStorm30/mo buys you 6GB and some 50-60 PLN refund on voice
19:23.08RST38hoh
19:23.09AstralStormso you get half of 110 PLN back
19:23.33RST38hso the total cell phone bill comes to something like e50?
19:23.41AstralStormuhm, no
19:23.51AstralStormit is at least 25 PLN postpaid flatrate
19:24.02AstralStormbut all that flatrate goes into call
19:24.10AstralStormso you may call up to 75 PLN of calls
19:24.17AstralStormw/o incurring costs
19:24.18RST38hcomplicated
19:24.22AstralStormnot really
19:24.28AstralStormit means if you don't call, you won't gain
19:24.29*** join/#maemo tbf (n=mathias@86.56.69.25)
19:24.37AstralStormif you do, then you may call more :P
19:24.46RST38hno but here if I do not call I do not pay anything, same for the data
19:25.09AstralStormon flatrate, here you pay the baseline flatrate at the very least
19:25.18RST38hand the data is something like e0.11/MB
19:25.30AstralStormoh, normal price!
19:25.31AstralStorm:)
19:25.58RST38hI literally spend <e10/mo on data (of coure it is plain GPRS but who cares as long as Google Reader works)
19:26.08AstralStormgood for you
19:26.17AstralStormI will use that connection for normal work though
19:26.27AstralStormso you see how it would soon pass above 2 GB
19:27.02RST38hyea, for normal usage case I would hit ~300-500MB by browsing etc
19:27.03AstralStormthis means I'm actually not having any unlimited broadband
19:27.27RST38hwell, my landline connection also has an 11GB cap for out-of-network traffic but I never hit it
19:27.29AstralStorm(except if I sit by their wifi AP :> this is included and unlimited up-to-11 Mbit
19:27.46RST38hWhatever intellectual property (tm) I need to steal is already inside the local network
19:27.52AstralStormhehehe
19:27.55AstralStormyes, that is good
19:28.02AstralStormI don't steal IP, no need for that
19:28.10AstralStormMSDNAA is good ;P
19:28.17RST38hWell, I sometimes do watch a movie or two
19:28.27AstralStormthat *I* don't have to download ;P
19:28.42AstralStormor even if, I won't dl more than a few a month
19:28.44RST38hAside from that, no much use: I do not do 3d gaming, etc
19:29.18AstralStormand HD quality is lost anyway on my laptop, so... :P
19:29.41AstralStorm(1280x800 is HD, but then... no reason why I can't watch the movie in DVD quality)
19:30.02RST38h1280x800 I can watch on TV, if my media PC does not choke on it of course
19:30.11AstralStorm:)
19:31.04AstralStormanyway, that data plan is excellent and will suffice for all my work
19:31.18AstralStormI had 512/128 limited to 5G once
19:31.20RST38hIf it acts as you landline then indeed
19:31.21AstralStormand it worked well
19:31.33*** join/#maemo secureendpoints (n=chatzill@216.239.45.19)
19:31.52AstralStorm(that was crummy cable - but it was half the price ;> )
19:31.57RST38he30..e50 isn't much money if it covers ALL connectivity needs
19:32.17*** join/#maemo penguinbait (n=smokey@c-68-62-90-22.hsd1.mi.comcast.net)
19:32.39AstralStormwell, you can get landline for E30 of 4Mbit/1Mbit, cable
19:32.44AstralStormbut it can't reach here
19:32.59AstralStormunlimited, 3 IPs
19:33.12RST38hpays around $15 for 100Mbaud bidirectional
19:33.19AstralStormmmmh
19:33.25AstralStormmaybe I should learn Russian
19:33.30RST38hOuter world is connected to it via 4Mbaud though
19:33.34AstralStormahha
19:33.38AstralStormso it's the same :)
19:33.57AstralStormalthough much cheaper
19:33.59RST38hif I have to go outside then yes but all the heavy IP crap is already sucked in =)
19:34.27RST38hThey won't give me dedicated IP unless I run VPN though, so it is all behind NAT
19:34.31AstralStormacademic link? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
19:34.50RST38hno, the usual stuff, handled by Golden Telecom I think
19:34.56AstralStormhmmh
19:35.01AstralStormah, it's Russia again
19:35.08AstralStormno IP is safe there
19:35.11RST38hit is just that the city itself has been wired optically for years now
19:35.25AstralStormoh, that kind of MAN would be very nice to have
19:35.28AstralStormnothing like it here
19:35.34RST38hnot every spot, but most
19:35.47AstralStormthey are thinking about building such a MAN on WiMax
19:35.57AstralStormbut I suspect 4G will come first
19:35.58RST38h2-3 WiMax installaitons here as well
19:36.04RST38hNone mobile though, AFAIK
19:36.58AstralStormRST38h: as to that post-paid - earlier you could grab a cellphone with a very tiny baseline voice postpaid rate
19:37.04AstralStormlike 5 PLN
19:37.18AstralStormnot now anymore it seems
19:37.27RST38hThat is how it seems to work in .LT
19:37.50AstralStormI pay 35 mine
19:37.51RST38hHere too - a SIM card costs you around $7 and this money goes directly onto your account
19:37.56AstralStormmaybe I'll switch to 25 later
19:37.59AstralStormafter a year
19:38.09RST38hThe only difference is that they require your passport here
19:38.12AstralStormit's the same here ,that base rate goes to your account
19:38.23RST38hIn .LT you can buy SIM card at the supermarket register
19:38.27AstralStormthey require a passport, drivers licence or identity card
19:38.52AstralStormand a way of proving you can pay
19:39.09RST38hNothing like that here - if you can't pay, the phone goes dormant =)
19:39.19AstralStormcan be: gas bill, bank account <list?>, media bill, such
19:39.38qwerty12_N800uk ftw
19:39.39AstralStormhere too, but that's needed if you get a subsidized phone
19:39.40qwerty12_N800http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/free-pay-as-you-go-sim-cards/
19:39.54AstralStormnot if you pay fully for the phone
19:40.00RST38hNo subsidized phones here, afaik
19:40.22kkrustyqwerty12_N800: you use tmobile?
19:40.22AstralStormqwerty12_N800: we have that here too, like Orange Mix
19:40.25RST38hAnd every blonde on the subway has an iPhone now :)
19:40.30RST38h(it was N95 before)
19:40.34AstralStormbut you can't get that data flatrate with it
19:40.45qwerty12_N800kkrusty, yeah, was on orange before
19:40.52AstralStormyou can get data prepaid though
19:41.12RST38hqwerty: Looks ok except for SMS rates, but I guess they do not have specials?
19:41.41RST38hlike "3 family member numbers at 5p/minute rate"?
19:42.08qwerty12_N800RST38h, their sms rates are brilliant. one of their plans has 3p texts
19:42.34AstralStorm3p... nice
19:42.45AstralStormbut mine is the equivalent in gr (0.01 PLN)
19:42.50RST38hqwerty: That is where it is important to remember that there are ICQ clients for mobiles ;)
19:42.58AstralStormand it also takes from base rate :)
19:43.10RST38hqwerty: And those are charged per megabyte ;)
19:43.29AstralStormand I get a bunch of free texts too
19:43.52orificeis mplayer's speed nominally slow for a standard def xvid file ?
19:43.55AstralStormor can buy a pack of discounted texts
19:43.58RST38hnever texts: it is easier to either run ICQ or login via SSH and use IRC
19:44.02qwerty12_N800RST38h, people i know don't use icq (doubt they have heard of it either) but you can bet they are texting all the time
19:44.07RST38horifice: yes
19:44.08AstralStormorifice: no, it's ok if the resolution isn't too high
19:44.16AstralStorm600x380 will work ok
19:44.22orificeok
19:44.26orificeno 640x480 though ?
19:44.28AstralStormassuming you don't use some advanced features like qpel
19:44.40AstralStorm640x388 max afaicr
19:44.45RST38hqwerty: Bad habit, start proselytizing now!
19:44.47AstralStormbut that's due to LCD driver
19:44.59orificeI was just going to ask what the bottle neck is
19:45.09AstralStormthe CPU use is ok even at 700-something
19:45.11RST38horifice: CPU, display subsystem
19:45.22qwerty12_N800RST38h, i don't use icq either, irc & msn for me :p
19:45.23AstralStormCPU is usually powerful enough for anything except H.324
19:45.27RST38hAStorm: If CPU is missing frames (and it does) it is not ok :(
19:45.41RST38hqwerty: move them to msn then
19:45.42AstralStormit very rarely does, yes, at DVD resolution
19:45.45RST38hirc is knda hardcore
19:45.51AstralStormon high-motion
19:46.03qwerty12_N800AstralStorm, doesn't help that it's connected with low speed serial interface too :(
19:46.13RST38hdunno, mises frames terribly on my tablet
19:46.13AstralStormyes, LCD driver is slow :)
19:46.19AstralStormmine doesn't
19:46.24AstralStormbut it depends on the movie
19:46.46RST38htime to upload new VGB to extras
19:46.47AstralStormthere's also the problem that SD cards / MMC chip aren't fast
19:46.49qwerty12_N800RST38h, actually, people on 3 (main 3g network here) get free msn
19:46.52AstralStormyou can get up to 1 MB/s
19:47.00AstralStormfrom SD card
19:47.10BugBlueah
19:47.12RST38hqwerty: they also get packet filtering then?
19:47.21BugBluegpsd on maemo 4.1 doesn't report M=2 anymore
19:47.32AstralStormM=2? what is that?
19:47.39BugBlue2 = good for latitude/longitude
19:47.50qwerty12_N800RST38h, probably, but it's free, who complains? :p
19:47.50BugBlue3 = good for altitude/climb too
19:47.58AstralStormuhm, it does report that
19:48.06AstralStormI checked, it sometimes grabs a 2D fix
19:48.09RST38hqwerty: No, if they get packet filtering and can't freely ue TCP/IP apps, then I would care
19:48.10BugBluenot via gps_saver
19:48.17AstralStormhmm, maybe there not
19:48.21AstralStormthat'd be a bug
19:48.25BugBluelet's replace the new gpsd with the old one
19:48.34AstralStorm(and see stuff break?)
19:48.40BugBlueI have 2 N810's here almost at the same place
19:48.42AstralStormno, diablo slightly improved lock speeds
19:48.46BugBlueAstralStorm: maybe, maybe not...
19:48.52RST38hSlightly?
19:48.56AstralStormyes
19:48.58AstralStormon cold fix
19:49.02AstralStormon hot fix, a lot :)
19:49.03BugBluea little bit...
19:49.06RST38hIf you have previous data, AGPS will lock about 3 times faster for me
19:49.08BugBluebut I don't worry about that
19:49.16AstralStormRST38h: AGPS is nonexistent here
19:49.19qwerty12_N800BugBlue, (ouch). build chinook's osso-gpsd in diablo sdk at least
19:49.20BugBlueAGPS is real faster, but I have gps on 24/7
19:49.36BugBlueqwerty12_N800: we'll see :P
19:49.36RST38hAStorm: Hehe, it is not THAT agps :)
19:49.49AstralStormah, you mean that one where ephemeris is stored?
19:49.51RST38hAStorm: Tablet AGPS is not the same as the real AGPS
19:49.56AstralStormyes, that's the main stuff
19:50.07AstralStormthat's why hot fixes are so fast now
19:50.15RST38hAStorm: Yes, this one lets you pinpoint your location on the map and loads metadata off a web server
19:50.16AstralStorm(and some cold too, if ephemeris is fresh)
19:50.24AstralStormRST38h: how?!
19:50.29AstralStormtell me, how to do that
19:50.30RST38hAStorm: You did not know? :)
19:50.34AstralStormas I mentioned, I have a plan
19:50.40AstralStorm:)
19:50.45BugBlueNokia-N810-50-2:~# scp /usr/sbin/gpsd root@192.168.2.252:/usr/sbin/gpsd
19:50.45RST38hAStorm: Ok, go to app manager and install AGPS beta app
19:50.50BugBluelet's see what happens..
19:50.55AstralStormRST38h: mhm, thanks!
19:50.57qwerty12_N800BugBlue, btw, did you find my aircrack-ng build? :)
19:51.12BugBlueqwerty12_N800: I didn't yet.. I didn't look for aircrack-ng yet...
19:51.15RST38hAStorm: then run it and try finding your location there (good to know your lat lon beforehand though)
19:51.15BugBluewhere did you hide it?
19:51.25RST38hAStorm: Save location, run Mapper, see what happens
19:51.33AstralStormRST38h: how precise I have to be with lat/lon?
19:51.40qwerty12_N800BugBlue, hehe, internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=190941
19:51.46AstralStormbecause I know +/- 10 meters
19:52.25AstralStorm(can just point it on map and copy)
19:52.36RST38hAStorm: anything in ~100km circle will do
19:52.41AstralStormalso, why it's not integrated with mapper yet?
19:52.47RST38hIt does not have to be
19:52.57AstralStormit could ask you to pick approx. location
19:52.59RST38hThis little app simply stores location somewhere in config files
19:53.04AstralStormmhmh
19:53.12AstralStormbut what if location changes more than 100 km?
19:53.17RST38hAnd Diablo GPSD will use it AND your network connection to fetch ephemeris etc
19:53.23AstralStorm:)
19:53.30RST38hAStorm: It will keep track of your location
19:53.37AstralStormif the gps is off too?
19:53.40AstralStormimpossible ;P
19:53.42RST38hnot in that case
19:53.57RST38hso let us hope you do not travel that far often
19:53.59AstralStormyes, that's why it'd be nice to have some support in mapper
19:54.03AstralStormI do, by a train
19:54.05l7hrm, bluetooth keyboard support seems to be much better in Diablo
19:54.07AstralStormnot too often though
19:54.08RST38hmapper will make use of it
19:54.22AstralStormI mean, some support for picking that location
19:54.24RST38hActually, I think even 300km will do the job but you are free to experiment
19:54.26l7i remember in chinook it would type like thisssss
19:54.35RST38hl7: Feels exactly the same to me
19:54.35AstralStormlike, "point somewhere estimated where you are"
19:54.45RST38hstill slow, laggy, and repeats letters
19:54.53AstralStormand then it feeds the data to AGPSd
19:54.55RST38hAStorm: That is what that AGPS app is for
19:54.56BugBlueoke now I have to wait for a GPS fix, a real one...
19:55.03RST38hAStorm: That is exactly what it does
19:55.05l7RST38h: it still repeats letters for you?
19:55.06AstralStormRST38h: but it doesn't show you the map, does it?
19:55.13RST38hAStorm: It does
19:55.17AstralStormmmmmh
19:55.19RST38hinstall and try it
19:55.24l7i guess i get it a little now, but much less
19:55.34RST38hwould actually get this information from the clock app but Nokia decided differently
19:55.41RST38hl7: yep
19:55.46l7is there a way to slow the repeat rate?
19:56.02RST38hthat is kbd dependent I think
19:56.02l7RST38h: which keyboard do you have?
19:56.06RST38hApple
19:56.08BugBlueAstralStorm: the problem it seems to have is that it doesn't feed the 2D (less accurate but much often updated) data if you also have 3D data (takes more time to compute and it's that much updated)
19:56.11l7oh
19:56.22l7RST38h: the thin aluminum one?
19:56.27AstralStormBugBlue: ahha!
19:56.32AstralStormthat's a bug, report please
19:56.38RST38hyep
19:56.43l7i was thinking of getting that one to use with my tablet, perhaps i shouldn't then
19:56.47BugBlueI replaced the gps_saver with the old version, doesn't help.. I replaced the gps driver, didn't fix it
19:56.55BugBluenot I hope that replacing gpsd would fix it
19:57.01AstralStormit might
19:57.16BugBluethan it makes sense to do diff, fix it and post a patch
19:57.18AstralStormRST38h: the app is in maemo-devel?
19:57.26RST38hAStorm: should be in plain extras
19:57.31AstralStormok
19:57.31RST38hlemme check
19:57.50BugBlueAstralStorm: but I can tell if I get a fix in a few minutes...
19:58.03AstralStormBugBlue: :)
19:58.15BugBlue(however maybe I should put my N810 outside instead before the window, that would speed things up, except my beer drinking...)
19:58.23RST38happ name is agps-ui
19:58.25BugBluemmm... faster code fix or more beer...
19:58.45AstralStormBugBlue: I recommend telling Maemo Bugs about that
19:58.50AstralStormthey should promptly fix it
19:59.06AstralStormbtw, someone could rebuild xournal
19:59.13BugBlueAstralStorm: I'd rather search the problem first.. maybe it's some ignorant setting from me somewhere...
19:59.14AstralStormas the version in extras is ubercrashy
19:59.21RST38hthe devel version of xournal is crashy
19:59.26RST38hthe extras version is fine
19:59.28AstralStormyes yes
19:59.34AstralStormextras is -chinook one?
19:59.36AstralStormI'll check
19:59.37RST38hthe devel version is some experimental shitpile
19:59.40AstralStormmhm
19:59.46AstralStormit should be axed then
19:59.48AstralStormknown broken
19:59.59RST38hit is devel, whaddayawant?
20:00.10AstralStormno broken stuff :)
20:00.19AstralStormit's as simple as rm
20:01.10AstralStormso, this AGPS is like QuickGPSFix of TomTom :)
20:01.14RST38hBetter bug the author to finish it
20:01.16AstralStormexcellent thing
20:01.20AstralStormRST38h: that too
20:01.31AstralStormbut he should axe the non-working version as well
20:02.27AstralStormhmm
20:02.35AstralStormthis A-GPS map has too large scale
20:02.57AstralStormvery hard to pick Poland ;P
20:03.04*** join/#maemo closet_ (i=closetpa@wm77-207.resnet.wm.edu)
20:03.41AstralStormRST38h: will the mapper now use it if it's set to Bluetooth? :)
20:04.43RST38hAStorm: with external gps? no :)
20:04.58RST38hthe map sucks, I know, go by lat lon
20:05.25RST38hAs you already set up your city in the clock settings, they could just initialize agps with that for starters
20:05.32*** join/#maemo p| (n=pi@94.161.35.65)
20:05.58AstralStormseems it does, I got 9 sats in field
20:11.47BugBluemmm
20:12.00BugBlueI accidently deleted about 1.000.000 records of gps log :P
20:12.04BugBluein my database
20:12.30BugBlue... thank god for backups ...
20:12.58RST38hOk, whoever wants the hot new version of VGB, it is at http://fms.komkon.org/VGB/
20:13.19RST38hWill appear in the Extras on Monday, if Cthulhu is merciful
20:13.59qwerty12_N800thanks, need it to play cokemon :)
20:14.25RST38hThis is VGB (not VGBA) so your cokemon will be somewhat oldskool
20:14.25AstralStormalmost violating two trademarks at once... brilliant
20:14.59qwerty12_N800RST38h, i know but the jokes still get me :/
20:15.31RST38htwo trademark violations and a reference to controlled substance
20:15.42RST38hare you sure this is still safe in the UK? =)
20:16.19AstralStormok, now I get much better signal from sats, almost got 2D fix now
20:16.25qwerty12_N800i've probably revealed worse on this channel :p
20:16.27AstralStormgood thing
20:16.34AstralStorm(and it's a first time cold fix)
20:17.06RST38hdon't tell me you are outside, in October, at 23:18
20:17.09AstralStormbut that gpsd bug indeed is visible :>
20:17.12RST38hand using irc
20:17.17AstralStormRST38h: no, it's by the window
20:17.24AstralStormbehind it even
20:17.33AstralStormclosed
20:17.34RST38hthat's probably suboptimal...
20:17.38AstralStormyup
20:17.43AstralStormbut it means this thing is golden
20:18.12RST38hyea, there is some golden plating on that TI turd now...
20:18.20RST38hwhat is the gpsd bug btw?
20:18.21AstralStormnot on TI
20:18.25RST38hin plain english?
20:18.45AstralStormRST38h: that it doesn't send 2D data it can get from TI chip much more often than 3D data
20:18.47RST38hThe 5300 GPS chip in the tablets is TI
20:18.50AstralStormit did before
20:19.00RST38hOh, it ignores 2D fixes?
20:19.05AstralStormit seems
20:19.21AstralStormI mean, it makes use of them, sends them if no 3D fix is available
20:19.25AstralStormbut not otherwise
20:19.32RST38hisn't that ok?
20:19.34AstralStormno
20:19.40AstralStormbecause 2D fix send rate is higher
20:19.45AstralStorm:)
20:20.00AstralStormthis means the 2D fix is less precise now than before
20:20.06RST38hah, so if there are 2d fix changes between 3d fixes, they are ignored?
20:20.26AstralStormyes
20:20.49RST38hwell, it is less problematic than I tought...
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20:21.08AstralStormstill bad :)
20:21.13AstralStormaffects accuracy
20:21.31AstralStormanyway, seems like I can only grab 2 sats out of this window ;P
20:21.58RST38hnotice that it is not the window you have to worry about but the walls on all the other sides :)
20:22.33RST38hthere is 75% chance the other satellites are there somewhere
20:22.39AstralStormI checked
20:22.47AstralStormthey are too much above me
20:22.51BugBlueAstralStorm: my problem is that with the old data I can do this: http://clamans.mobach.nl/viewer/?saved=4a3c14ce79d03da8ed72bbb8cb6be653 and the new looks like: http://clamans.mobach.nl/viewer/?saved=268727bf5936f40be0a15707fdbebc8a
20:23.17AstralStormI get about 45 degree view horizontal, 60 vertical
20:23.36BugBluemm old gps_saver, old gpsd, old gpsdriver... problem not solved
20:23.36AstralStormBugBlue: report it please, I can't fix it :)
20:23.44BugBlueAstralStorm: I know..
20:24.49AstralStormwrong, 90 degree horizontal, 120 degree vertical
20:25.23AstralStormso, if I rotate the receiver some, I should catch another sat
20:26.30*** join/#maemo closet (n=closetpa@wm158-156.unwired-upperclass.wm.edu)
20:26.36AstralStormblah, why didn't nokia expose that GPS antenna... I could attach something better
20:27.47AstralStormthere is an actual mini-something pin socket inside
20:27.55AstralStormso you could have an external antenna
20:28.09AstralStorm(for wifi too)
20:29.44BugBluehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.FL <-- that one?
20:29.46AstralStormbetter than 3 cm strip of gold
20:29.51AstralStormyes, that one
20:30.06BugBluethat's a nice standard... you really do have antennas for it :D
20:31.42BugBlueLOL
20:31.43BugBlueRP-SMA connectors are widely used by Wi-Fi equipment manufacturers to comply with specific local regulations, e.g. the FCC, which are designed to make it difficult for consumers to connect antennas with gain and thereby breach compliance
20:31.52BugBlueI do like the FCC
20:32.26AstralStormit doesn't matter for GPS
20:32.59AstralStormall it needs is a large antenna with wide sight
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20:33.07AstralStormselectivity doesn't have to be too high
20:33.22RST38hLike your body for example...
20:33.43AstralStormno, body can't receive these frequencies
20:33.47AstralStormthey're absorbed by water
20:33.57AstralStormor at least distorted
20:34.07RST38hyou have got skin and whatever is inside skin
20:34.07AstralStormthat's why cloudy sky isn't good ;P
20:34.17AstralStormwhich is 80% water?
20:34.18AstralStorm;P
20:34.22RST38hin this case we are talking about skin surface only
20:34.30AstralStormnot really
20:34.34RST38hwell it depends on how wet your skin is
20:34.43AstralStormit doesn't conduct well anyway
20:34.46RST38hcheck out cases where people get hit by lightning
20:35.01AstralStormwet will screen GPS signal and not conduct
20:35.03RST38hlightning usually goes through skin only
20:35.32AstralStormok, now it has 6 sats :>
20:35.41*** join/#maemo bilboed-tp (n=bilboed@216.239.45.19)
20:36.11AstralStormsignal levels are just above 20 though
20:36.14AstralStormwhich is weak
20:36.44AstralStormit should grab fix, now has 7 sats
20:38.51AstralStormblah, I should just buy a good GPS receiver
20:39.13AstralStormany recommendations? (small size and long battery life are much appreciated)
20:39.31BugBlueI once bought the cheapest once..
20:39.34BugBluenot even SIRF3
20:39.50BugBlueFOUND IT!
20:39.54BugBlueit's libgps
20:39.57AstralStorm:>
20:40.01AstralStormok, excellent
20:40.05AstralStormnow, report ASAP :)
20:40.10BugBluehang on
20:40.18BugBlueI do want to move the other software back first
20:40.21BugBlueto be 100% sure
20:40.25RST38hAStorm: I have got a tiny Holux
20:40.32RST38hSIRFIII based, works.
20:40.35AstralStormare MTK recvs good?
20:40.42RST38hBut don't expect it to work inside buildings
20:40.49RST38hMTK is cheap and widepread right now
20:40.59RST38hSome say it is better than SIRF but I would stay with SIRF
20:41.30RST38hJust because for MTK it is just one direction (they produce DVD, MP3, etc chips) while SIRF is GPS specific
20:41.32BugBluerebooting my N810 for the Xth time... :D
20:42.14AstralStormRST38h: 20h battery life sure is sexy
20:42.28AstralStormit would be even better if that recv supported USB charging
20:42.43AstralStormmy car has ports
20:42.57RST38hHolux 240 supports USB charging
20:44.02AstralStormor even 32hr :)
20:44.42AstralStormhttp://www.buygpsnow.com/Qstarz-BT-Q890-Super-High-66-CH-Nano-Bluetooth-GPS-Receiver-%2866-ch-MTK--1-5Hz-User-Configurable--Dual-USBBluetooth%29__1006.aspx
20:44.53AstralStorm12h, but at what size... excellent sensitivity too :>
20:46.24RST38hlooks bigger than Holux
20:46.30RST38hbut more versatile
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20:53.38AstralStormbigger than this one?
20:53.46AstralStormhttp://www.buygpsnow.com/Holux_M241_Bluetooth_GPS_Datalogger.aspx
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21:05.09BugBlueoff 2 bed
21:05.45BugBlueAstralStorm: I do have a BT one that does charge over USB... a real cheap one... can tell you more tomorrow
21:07.44StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i so just did a good old fashioned community suicide by this post probably
21:07.48Stskeeps:P
21:09.31StskeepsGeneralAntilles: but let's see how the community reacts & quim, - i think i may have done a bit too much of conciousness streaming there
21:10.44ShadowJK_link?
21:10.57Stskeepsnot on archive yet
21:10.58Stskeepssec
21:11.13Stskeepswtf
21:11.46qwerty12_N800not in my inbox :p
21:12.45Stskeeps.. yeah, just remembered to actually confirm my subscription
21:13.43Stskeepsthere, http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-October/035409.html
21:15.00Stskeepsim off to bed else gf will kill me
21:15.03Stskeepsbbl
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21:20.38ShadowJK_There's one big thing that determined winners and losers in the explosion of personal computers that happened throughout the 80s, the systems with the most programs won :P
21:22.39JaffaTrue; but which came first ;-)
21:22.53Jaffai.e. which is cause; and which is effect
21:22.58Jaffasleeps.
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21:23.42AstralStormas for the GPS recv. it has to be small, esp. thin
21:23.48AstralStormthicker than n810 = nono
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21:51.14Mouseyfinds datafiles for openttd.. discovers life really is worth living
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22:02.03orangeyhow can I debug the SIP software?
22:02.10orangeyI'm getting a crazy number of incomplete calls
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22:24.57Mouseygoes on an applicatons/games installing binge!
22:24.59Mousey^_^
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22:29.43TokyoDanMornin' everybody. What shells are used in N810 user and root accounts? Bourne, bash, korn?
22:33.57orangeyTokyoDan: good question.
22:34.02orangeyTokyoDan: why not just busybox?
22:34.04orangeyis that a shell?
22:34.33melmoth<PROTECTED>
22:35.31l7doesn't the n810 use ash as the shell?
22:35.54l7that's what the n800 uses and the OS should be the same
22:37.17AstralStormwrong
22:37.30AstralStormthey both use busybox sh of sorts
22:37.36AstralStormit's not exactly full ash
22:39.28*** join/#maemo bilboed-tp (n=bilboed@216.239.45.19)
22:42.23TokyoDanIf both root and user use busybox sh then why are the prompts different?
22:43.01orangeydifferent in what sense?
22:43.04orangey# vs $?
22:43.11orangeythat's standard distinction between root and non-root
22:43.21TokyoDanYes. and isn't "sh" bourne? so maybe busybox is a clone.
22:43.35orangeysh can be anything
22:43.41TokyoDanThat's all?
22:44.14TokyoDanI thought it was standardized that sh is the brompt for bourne.
22:44.24orangeynot at all.
22:44.28orangeysh is probably the least standard.
22:44.36orangeyand will generally be hijacked by whatever the default shell is
22:44.40orangeyperhaps at some point it was.
22:44.55orangey$ ls -l /bin/sh
22:44.55orangeylrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 2006-09-09 19:28 /bin/sh -> dash
22:44.57*** join/#maemo croppa (n=stuart@135.27.233.220.exetel.com.au)
22:44.58orangeyand that's on ubuntu!
22:46.17TokyoDanok, mine is /bin/sh -> busybox on my n810
22:46.23TokyoDanThanks.
22:46.45orangeynp
22:46.47TokyoDanNow I wonder where the environments variables are kept.
22:46.53orangeybasically what we we were saying
22:46.58orangeythe variables are generally kept in .profile
22:47.07orangeynot sure specifically for busybox
22:48.04TokyoDanWell now I know what to search for when looking for  shell script syntax/commands.
22:48.45orangeyexactly!
22:48.57orangeythere are subtle differences that can get infuriating if you don't realize that busybox =/= bash
22:49.15TokyoDansupposedly the busybox guys hang out at #uclibc
22:50.44orangeyno idea
22:50.50TokyoDanWell I've been playing with the $PATH variable in .profile so that I can run an executable Python script from my home directory but no matter what I do I get command not found errors.
22:50.57orangeybut I would doubt you need to ask them for much unless you're doing some pretty low-level coding
22:51.21TokyoDanYeah, the wiki is best.
22:51.45orangeyI have to head out, but good luck with it. if you make sure that the environmental variables work, then just google around to see.
22:51.57orangeyit may be .profile, .bashrc or something else.
22:52.09orangeygood luck!
22:52.23TokyoDanThanks
22:53.49melmothTonnerre: are you sure the python script start with the path to python (#!/usr/bin/python2.5) ?
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23:53.16TokyoDanHello melmoth. just go back from breakfast. Yes. my script starts with that.
23:56.43TokyoDanMy script Hello1.py  is in my current directory, I type Hello1.py at the prompt and i get: "-sh: Hello1.py: not fount
23:59.07TokyoDanI got it. It runs if i type ./Hello1.py

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