IRC log for #maemo on 20070830

00:19.21*** join/#maemo cypherbios (n=cypherbi@ubuntu/member/cypherbios)
00:29.48*** join/#maemo unique311 (n=stan@ool-457ae2a6.dyn.optonline.net)
00:30.18unique311whose the brazilian?
00:30.21unique311http://www.trendygadget.com/2007/08/18/brazilians-make-an-iphone-interface-for-nokia-n800/
00:31.25mmillerI'll take my N800 over a iphone any day.
00:32.10unique311not sure about that story
00:32.41unique311i want an iphone now.
00:32.56unique311software unlock
00:33.04unique311gotta be a good thing.
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00:33.49mmillerHope you like it when the battery goes out on it..
00:33.56mmillerYou have to replace the hole phone..
00:34.22unique311wow
00:34.30unique311you joking?
00:36.15unique311i replaced my ipod battery
00:36.32unique311mini
00:36.40unique311wasn't hard to do at all.
00:36.54unique311<PROTECTED>
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01:28.28pupnikgreat new antiwar.com radio interviews
01:28.33pupnikoops wrong channel
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01:56.25dolskeHrm. I don't seem to be able to update to microb 0.0.8-4.
01:57.16dolskeApplication packages missing: maemo-browser-dialogs (>= 0.3.18) and -widgets (>= 0.4.15).
01:58.14dolsketimelE61i: ?
02:14.41pupnikhttp://dolske.net/
02:14.45pupnikis that your site?
02:15.07*** join/#maemo pdz- (n=paul@135.14.169.217.in-addr.arpa)
02:17.37dolskeyep.
02:18.25pupnikgood site
02:22.13pupnikfind the packages and install manually and give feedback
02:25.25dolskegood site? It's just a placeholder page! :)
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02:40.30[1]a-l-p-h-awhere's the 2007 hackers edition how-to?
02:41.37pupnikdolske: yeah but the blinking cursor is cool
02:42.16pupnikjust because your nickname is a pain in the ass to type doesn't mean you're ready for 2007he
02:43.12dolskeheh
02:43.49[1]a-l-p-h-athanks. :)
02:44.43pupnikthe answer is i don't know of a howto
02:45.05[1]a-l-p-h-awell, I'm looking for the "flasher" app... I have flashergui, not flasher.
02:45.07pupnikflash the image and try it out
02:46.10pupnikflasher?
02:46.11_Monkeyflasher is probably available from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com
02:48.41[1]a-l-p-h-aokay, so no win32 flasher?
02:49.08pupniki don't know
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02:56.08yssskupo nut sounds familiar..
02:56.12ysssis it from Final Fantasy series?
02:56.54pupnikyeah
02:57.14pupnikysss: i have ported playstation emulator to the nokia
02:58.47yssswow
02:58.48yssshow does it run?
02:58.55pupnik1fps on average
02:59.20pupnikbut it will be possible to get 10-20fps
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03:00.37yssslol
03:00.40pupnikysss: are you interested in emulation and have some coding experience?
03:00.45ysss15fps should be ok
03:01.29*** join/#maemo ryanfaerman (n=ryanfaer@c-76-109-115-251.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
03:01.30ysssI've unuseful coding experience, but have a heavy stock of emulation uhm assets..
03:02.03pupnikok, there are a lot of arm emulators from the gp2x scene that could work on the nokias
03:02.04[1]a-l-p-h-aI made the mistake of connecting the mail program connect to gmail.  anyone know how to clear all emails easily
03:02.04[1]a-l-p-h-a?
03:02.10pupniknobody has managed to port one yet
03:02.31yssspupnik: have you tried booting n800 from SD? Is it true that it behaves badly w/ the AC adapter?
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03:02.56pupniki only have 770 - and i boot from mmc and only have occasional strangeness
03:03.21yssspupnik: yes, I have a gp2x so I never looked for emulation on other platform since the gp2x does it so nicely. ScummVM on n800 is quite awesome though.
03:03.46yssspupnik: what strangeness did you find and how often?
03:04.10pupnikon...
03:04.27pupnikvery seldom -
03:04.42pupnikysss: we need those gp2x emus
03:04.58pupnikysss: is there a software emulator for gp2x?
03:05.46pupniki also have some unreleased ports if you want to help test
03:06.13yssspupnik: I didn't participate in gp2x developments, so I don't know.
03:06.42yssspupnik: sure I'll test as long as it has little risk on my n800, because i use it daily.
03:06.52pupnikwell those guys did great work
03:07.31pupniknobody on planet earth is working to port gp2x emus to nokia
03:07.46ysssYeah, it's the best portable emulation platform i've seen yet. i don't get why they didn't upgrade the CPU on their new machine though.
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03:08.29pupnikyeah, someone on the forums says there is a project to do a next-gen gp2x
03:11.01pupnikysss: this would be good: http://pupnik.de/Nokia970med4.png
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03:11.36unique311pupnik,
03:11.37_Monkeypupnik, is there a nice tutorial for packaing for the N800
03:12.02unique311I did tell you i got neopop to work fullscreen, but i couldn't get controls to work on it.
03:12.34pupnikwhat for this neopop?
03:12.38unique311not sure but i think it was the gp2x source i modified to get it to work on the N800
03:12.46unique311its neogeo
03:12.50unique311the handheld
03:12.58unique311like a gameboy
03:12.59pupniknice
03:13.02erstaziunique311: howdy, long time no see
03:13.19unique311been working on shirt designs
03:13.20erstazi_Monkey: forget pupnik,
03:13.21_Monkeyerstazi: I forgot pupnik,
03:13.25pupnikyou do so much stuff unique311 - why not get a cheap website?
03:13.27yssspupnik: nifty. I wish the IT gets a slide-out keyboard though. One w/ buldging keys like the Treo.
03:13.36unique311and going thru the worst toothache ever right now.
03:13.49pupniksorry
03:13.49erstaziunique311: put some jack daniels on it, it will take the pain away
03:14.00unique311i was looking for some liquor..
03:14.00ysssneogeo pocket
03:14.02pupnikno dentist
03:14.03unique311none in the house.
03:14.04erstaziand I am not saying that because I am an alcoholic... I just know <EG>
03:14.08unique311the pain is gone.
03:14.18unique311its swollen.
03:14.26erstaziunique311: what do you have? how much do you weight? niteqwik will work
03:14.34unique311i had a freaking milkyway
03:14.42ysssunique311: what do u do with the shirt designs?
03:15.23unique311i have some descent designs.
03:15.44pupnikysss: http:/pupnik.de/aliens_nokia_onscreenbuttons.jpg
03:15.53pupnikdecent
03:16.27unique311yeah
03:17.17unique311pupnik if you want the source i modified for fullscreen, i can't up it for you..
03:17.21yssssubmit your less-than-decent ones to shirts.woot.com heh
03:17.29unique311speed is really fast
03:17.33yssspupnik: nice
03:17.52pupnikno more projects for me unique311
03:18.03pupniki have to finish stuff
03:18.15unique311cool
03:18.41unique311waiting on this guy to put out the faint release fullscreen.
03:18.55erstaziI have too many projects myself
03:19.50pupnikthe thing that is burning a hole in my brain is the snes emu
03:20.06pupnikthat's doable
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03:20.44pupnikand those rpgs would be workable with the bad d-pad
03:21.03unique311someone on ITT is trying to get picodrive going.
03:21.18unique311isn't that ur project
03:21.19pupnikcool i missed that - under gaming or development?
03:21.36pupnikthe only picodrive work i did was with you :)
03:22.30erstazihow strange, the whole day, I haven't even touched my 770
03:22.34erstazithats a first
03:22.53pupnikanyway picodrive will not be much good
03:23.05pupnikthe games all are twitchware - fast response games
03:23.20pupnikexcept for a couple of rpgs (not very good)
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03:24.50unique311for gaming on the N800
03:25.08unique311i think i'm addicted to solitaire
03:25.35ysssI wish for a decent poker game for the IT
03:25.43unique311gambler
03:25.53unique311lots of flash games that provide that
03:25.57yssslol
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03:26.13yssshorrible adware last time i checked.
03:26.20unique311i did a flash package
03:26.23ysssthen again, i've no idea how to effectively search for flash content.
03:26.25unique311hold on
03:26.35ysssbrilliant
03:27.14unique311http://www.divshare.com/download/1503325-ae5
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03:27.27unique311has some good vegas games..
03:27.37fer__hi
03:27.37_Monkeysalut, fer__
03:27.56fer__anyone knws if it's possible to use a bluetooth headset with a n800?
03:28.12ysssTHANK YOU :D   (the addict gambler in me just spoke)
03:28.23fer__(I mean, to use voip/SIP/Skype)
03:28.28unique311you can treak it up for your needs.
03:29.09erstaziysss: I like Texas Hold'em myself (:
03:29.24ysssunique311: i've never used flash from disk\ram. Do you launch it from file manager or point the browser to it?
03:29.27erstazifer__: I have heard of people talking about it
03:29.40yssserstazi: yesssssss... me tooooooo
03:29.43unique311place it in mmc
03:29.48unique311and run the index.html
03:29.54unique311bookmark it
03:30.20unique311extract
03:30.32unique311place Mflash folder in mmc1 or mmc2
03:30.34ysssfer__: i've read that they can pair, but there's no bluetooth headset profile yet. It seems right now the answer is "not yet".
03:30.39unique311run index.html
03:30.51ysssunique311: nice
03:30.59unique311and bookmark it
03:31.33unique311i sucked at html.
03:31.59unique311used dreamweaver, so it worked out ok i guess
03:32.55ysssunique311: i was gonna say "Naw, it looks alright" or something like that, but my crappy connection is still not done downloading the thing :]
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03:33.43unique311ysss, 770 or 800?
03:34.39unique311might not play well with the 770...pupnik's reviews wasn't that good.
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03:37.00pupniki what huh
03:37.23unique311remember the flash package i made
03:37.34pupnikoh that was awesome
03:37.42unique311you gave it a run, and it didn't play well with the 770
03:37.42pupnikbut a lot of them were too slow on the 770
03:37.48unique311ok
03:38.04erstaziok,sleep time, everyone have a good night
03:38.09pupnikcheera
03:38.17unique311was warning ysss if he owns a 770
03:38.26unique311later erstazi
03:38.41pupnikunique311: that's going to be a huge gaming thing for the n800 and the next tablet
03:39.03ysss__nite erstazi
03:39.21ysss__unique311: i got disconnected
03:39.43pupnikunique311: are they open source?  can you distribute the package on a website?
03:39.50pupnikdivshare is not enough
03:39.54ysss__the karma gods heard me bitch about my connection and instantly struck my dsl down.
03:40.42pupnikunique311: i spend 99 cents a month for my site -- if you want it shouldn't be much more expensive
03:41.28unique311i had webhosting.
03:41.46pupniki am not giving advice, but i think maybe some of the stuff you've done isn't getting enough attention
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03:42.21ysss__that's a good non-advice
03:42.21fer__ysss__, thanks for the info.
03:42.33unique311i planned on tweaking the flash package and then adding it to the garage if they would let me.
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03:42.40unique311but never got to it.
03:43.22Wiredlessanyone know what repositoru has the needed lids for UKMP?
03:50.03unique311anyone using a wiimote with the device?
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04:05.07ysss__not me, i don't use my n800 for twitch gaming
04:10.15timelyxdolske: um
04:11.04dolske?
04:12.59pupniknokia tablets can work for adventures, puzzles and rpgs
04:13.40timelyxre packages
04:13.56timelyxpupnik: rocket propelled grenades? :)
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04:14.24dolsketouch screen... carefully.
04:14.55Shwiatahello all
04:15.08dolsketimelyx: are you going to tell me that 0.0.8-4 is the 770 version?
04:15.59timelyxmaybe? :)
04:16.10Shwiatasearch appears to be broken and I just had a quick question, are there ready made installs of the wpa_supplicant for the n800 on someone's hard drive by any chance?
04:16.26dolskeand that having the pre-bora repositories in the Application Manager is a bad idea?
04:17.19timelyxhttps://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/mozilla/trunk/microb-browser/debian/changelog?root=browser&view=annotate
04:17.24timelyxbut garage doesn't know :)
04:17.43timelyxdolske: you have gregale repositories in application manager?
04:17.54timelyxdolske: there are stories about how to break a debian system
04:17.59timelyxthey go something like this:
04:18.01Wiredlessanyone know what is the newest hacker eddition 2007 for 770?
04:18.17timelyxWiredless: can't you figure that out by going to the project page?
04:18.29Wiredlessguess not
04:18.31timelyxadd repositories for older/newer versions and do apt-get update; apt-get install <anything interesting>
04:18.36Wiredlessi been looking around
04:18.42Wiredlessnot much luck
04:19.02dolskeyour 'um' implied I must some some something amazingly stupid such as to leave you speechless, so I checked and I still had a couple of the old repos enabled.
04:19.05dolske:)
04:19.20timelyxdolske: actually, that um was more like
04:19.32Wiredlessgoing through the nokia os download it says 2.2006.47-17
04:19.33timelyx"um, [pregnant pause, hiding ignorance of package details]
04:19.46dolskeheh
04:19.55Wiredlessi have 2.200648-7 on there now
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04:24.53pupnikum is general shorthand for 'don't know that to say'
04:25.04pupnikthe cause of 'don't know what to say' can be varied
04:25.40pupniki don't know,  question is too confusing,  question is too stupid
04:25.41pupnikfor e.g.
04:25.45dolskeAt least he didn't sigh. :-P
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04:26.34bedboire
04:26.38pupnikyou're right though - usually it implies not understanding the question
04:26.40Wiredlessgreat to see helpfull people in the channel
04:26.59ysss__"baby, i'm pregnant!"    "Um.."
04:27.42bedboiany dbus expert out there?
04:28.31pupnikok Wiredless - why doesn't xkbd send keyboard events to a fullscreen sdl app, but it sends to a windowed sdl app?
04:28.36pupniktell me now!
04:29.24pupnikYOU OWE ME AN ANSWER BY BEING PRESENT IN THIS CHANNEL!
04:29.36`0660window manager handles the events with windowed apps?
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04:30.08pupnik`0660: something like that - i am missing background knowledge on X
04:31.32pupnikin fact, by me being PRESENT IN THIS CHANNEL
04:31.37pupnikand WANTING to get SOMETHING DONE
04:31.46pupnikyou ALL MUST WORK for me TO DO WHAT I WANT
04:31.51pupnikand YOU MUST ALL DO IT RIGHT NOW
04:31.57pupnikotherwise THIS CHANNEL SUCKS!
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04:32.07`0660:)
04:32.56pupnikheh
04:33.13`0660i could try to find you a tutorial on x event handling? :P
04:33.38pupnikno no i need to learn a lot to figure that out
04:34.59pupnikand the xkbd is a dirty hack anyway... it's difficult to know what to do about the situation of virtual keyboard and non-hildon apps
04:35.34timelyxpupnik: do what i want, i give you a tshirt
04:35.36timelyxit's that simple
04:35.41pupnikhehe
04:35.41timelyx:)
04:36.11pupnikyeah maybe sometime
04:36.16kulvelardman|gone: about the debugging. I use dbg(task, fmt, ...); function and those messages are seen in dmesg on ARM side (or in syslog)
04:36.39timelyx_Monkey sysklogd
04:36.39_Monkeytimelyx: what?
04:36.46timelyx_Monkey syslogd
04:36.47_Monkeytimelyx: i'm not following you...
04:36.50timelyxuseless bot
04:38.08`0660:)
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04:40.32pupniktimelyx: i'm just not into the normal use-cases and i don't think i am very useful to your work
04:40.48timelyxpupnik: we'll see
04:40.54timelyxi'm fairly good at putting people to work
04:41.16pupnikmicrob works fine here
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04:54.31tompgli have lxdoom on a nokia 770 and i can't find the control to reduce the mouse sensitivity in options. anybody know how?
04:55.43timelyxanyone here happen to have an n800 that doesn't have microb installed?
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05:08.02ysss__timelyx: yes
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05:13.52timelyxwhat does the toolbar look like?
05:14.02timelyxwhat's the first thing you see in it (on the left)
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05:22.53ysss__toolbar? that's the bar on the bottom is it? the bookmark icon
05:23.12ysss__actually, i have 2 n800.. one w/ microb and one without. i can do a direct comparison for you..
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05:23.41ysss__iirc, the only difference is the 'set engine' menu item
05:24.07timelyxok
05:24.20timelyxcan you load bugs.maemo.org/query.cgi?product=Browser
05:24.27timelyxin the changed in field enter '1d'
05:24.29timelyxsearch
05:24.35timelyxthere should be a bug that asked for a globe in the toolbar
05:24.38timelyxit should be resolved
05:24.55timelyxselect it and comment that it's actually fixed in <4.2007 or whatever non microb os you have>
05:25.12timelyxfeel free to note that you can get a 2007 he
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05:36.20ysss__ok, doing the search..
05:36.33ysss__sorry, i'm doing a few things here
05:36.48timelyxno problem
05:36.56timelyxi'm explaining to someone how to analyze a bug and fix it
05:37.20timelyxstupid question time
05:37.25timelyxwhere does gtk live?
05:41.54ysss__eh, finally found the bug. that guy isn't asking for bookmark icon. he's asking for the web icon that acts as a (multiple) web window selector, in place of a tab interface.
05:42.27timelyxoh god
05:42.31ysss__that's actually not a bad idea, seeing that there's space in the bottom toolbar to fit that in.
05:42.44timelyxcan you please fix the summary
05:42.53timelyxif you get a rejection, tell me your bugmail address and i'll upgrade you
05:43.03timelyxheck, give me your bugmail address
05:43.07timelyxi'll upgrade you and you can reopen
05:45.02ysss__i'm not familiar w/ bug reporting procedures. the 'summary' is just another comment in that thread to clarify?
05:45.13ysss__lys@eml.cc
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05:47.45jarnoHello!
05:47.48timelyxok, reload the bug
05:47.49timelyxhello
05:47.55timelyxthe summary is a field at the top
05:48.01timelyxit's editable and fairly distinct from comments
05:48.04timelyxbasically:
05:48.08timelyx1. edit the summary field
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05:48.31timelyx2. type a comment explaining how what the reporter wanted and what i interpreted where different
05:48.35timelyx3. select (*) reopen
05:48.41timelyx4. review.
05:48.44timelyx5. click commit
05:48.56timelyxuse a spell checker for 4, firefox has one
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05:51.10latzkohi
05:53.41latzkoIn x86 target network and host resolving works from shell but it does not work in the window manager running on Xephyr. What am I missing? thanks
05:54.24latzkoshould I install and start something?
05:54.36timelyxsvn sucks btw
05:55.18timelyxlatzko: normally nsswitch.conf and resolve.conf aren't properly configured
05:55.21timelyxdid you fix them?
05:56.02timelyxsanjay is such a fragile box
05:57.34latzkoyes I found that in irc logs . I don't know what the fix really is. hosts: files dns networks: files is mine
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06:01.48latzkotimelyx, thans anyway, I look the settings on the tablet :)
06:02.03latzkoI mean thanks
06:05.20ysss__timelyx: ok, done.
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06:08.52latzkowell, nsswitch.conf and resolv.conf seems to be ok
06:09.22latzkoin the shell net works perfectly
06:09.26ysss__timelyx: is there a way to open web links in new background window?
06:09.38timelyxno
06:09.49timelyxbut if you remove 20 menuitems for me, we can see about it
06:09.55timelyxbrowser has too many menu items
06:10.01timelyxi'm not adding more until i kill at least half a dozen
06:10.07timelyxpreferably two dozen
06:10.25timelyxysss__: but simply put
06:10.36timelyxthe device you have doesn't have the resources to be used the way you want to use it
06:10.44timelyxso i will *not* encourage people to break their devices
06:10.56timelyxthe browser can handle up to maybe 4 pages
06:10.57ysss__remove or is regrouping acceptable, so they're conceptually easier to comprehend..?
06:11.00ysss__ok.l
06:11.02roopetimelyx: start with the encoding command or whatsitcalled. :)
06:11.11timelyxroope: we're trying to kill that
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06:11.35timelyxbut i think there were some fun items in the frame context submenu
06:11.46timelyxroope: it almost died for microb
06:11.57timelyxroope: i think i gave you a bug this morning
06:12.10timelyxif i didn't, i can impersonate you now and make a comment to be sure you get the bug :)
06:12.40timelyxspecifically, you should be watching applications:user interface
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06:12.54timelyxif you aren't, i can explain how to fix that :)
06:13.01timelyx(i can but really shouldn't fix it myself)
06:13.50ysss__timelyx: how about consolidating the content of 'close' into 'window'?
06:14.28timelyxysss__: i just moved that bug to roope's component
06:14.31timelyxit's the bug i was talking about
06:14.32timelyx:)
06:14.39ysss__d'oh
06:14.47timelyxvery timely :)
06:15.15roopesometimes i feel that my job is a scientific experiment on how many different topics one can multitask in.
06:15.29timelyxroope: i think you're the low end
06:15.36roopeyeah, i thought that jenni set those bugs to come to me.
06:15.38timelyxtry me, i'm having a couple of conversations, making a patch/tutorial in C
06:15.53timelyxroope: my reorg mostly clobbered that stuff
06:16.00timelyxi fixed the big qa buckets
06:16.03timelyxbut not the little people
06:16.11timelyxi can fix it for you if you like
06:16.15timelyxbut i'd rather walk you through it
06:16.27timelyxother tasks i'm doing now: reviewing perl/html/js/css
06:16.38roopewell, perhaps the multitask field is a bit ... umm, broader is topic range.
06:16.41timelyxtrying to buy plane tickets to vienna ...
06:17.02roopebut i'll try to check the bugzilla. although i'm crrap at using it
06:18.00timelyxload: https://bugs.maemo.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email&tab=email
06:18.05timelyxscroll to the bottom
06:18.12timelyxlook for:
06:18.12timelyxUsers to watch:
06:18.15timelyxi have:
06:18.19timelyx[microb-bugs@maemo.org,bookmarks-bugs@maemo.org,flash-bugs@maemo.org,opera-engine-bugs@maemo.org,browser-bugs@maemo.org,media-plugin-bugs@maemo.org]
06:18.31timelyxin another window, load:
06:18.33timelyxhttps://bugs.maemo.org/describecomponents.cgi?product=Applications
06:18.44timelyxoh oops
06:18.49timelyxhrm, i haven't broken you yet
06:18.57timelyxwell, maybe i should go ahead and break you now :)
06:19.05timelyxsilly me
06:19.27timelyxanyway, that means you have seen the bug ysss__ asked about :)
06:19.41timelyxeww
06:19.45timelyxApplications:Core?
06:20.33roopesounds like the guy is asking to copy the iphone browser.
06:20.52roopeicon that acts as a multiple window selector.
06:21.12timelyxroope: which bug is this?
06:21.28roopei was just backlog reading.
06:21.39latzkohm. apt-get works but apps with gui and net does not. do you have any clue?
06:21.39roopei'm not in the office yet, can't access bugzilla.
06:21.49timelyxroope: eh?
06:21.55timelyxbugs.maemo.org isn't behind any firewalls
06:21.57timelyxit's public
06:22.02timelyxmy mac is at home, i'm on my mac
06:22.11roopei'm on my e61
06:22.13timelyxcourse, you might not know your password
06:22.17roopeit would be somewhat painful
06:22.32roopeand i don't know my password.
06:22.34timelyxroope: i did a large part of the bugs.maemo.org reorg using my n800 w/ e61i offering the connectivity :)
06:22.49timelyxyeah, that password part is a problem. for me i just log into gmail and get it
06:22.56roopethat's because the n800 was so good.
06:23.00roope;)
06:23.06timelyxyeah, complete w/ microb :)
06:23.12timelyxit actually worked quite well
06:23.42timelyxi could have done it from my e61i, but i'd have used SSH to screen to lynx
06:23.49timelyxno way i'd use the gui browser to do it
06:23.59timelyxits window handling is awful
06:24.07timelyxwait
06:24.14timelyxthis guy wants window switching?
06:24.15jarnoWhat kind process is convert python programs to different hardware?Like Linux 386 to Nokia tablets?
06:24.22timelyxysss__: what's wrong w/ the hardware home key?
06:24.24jarnohttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=72065#post72065
06:24.49timelyxjarno: python w/ ui or python w/o?
06:25.05timelyxw/o it might just plain work unless the programmer tried very hard to be annoying
06:25.57roopewe do have a couple of interesting concepts for window switching, but not like a button in the toolbar.
06:26.11timelyxdepending on how good you want the gui integration you'd have to port to pymaemo or something
06:26.23timelyxroope: personally, i'd veto a button in the toolbar
06:26.25timelyxi already have:
06:26.42timelyxglobe, rss, lock, tinyurlbar, go, back, forward, find
06:26.50timelyxwhere globe is heavily overloaded
06:27.05timelyxtinyurlbar is mildly overloaded (and likely to be more so eventually)
06:27.11timelyxgo is overloaded w/ reload and stop
06:27.16timelyxback/forward are fairly overloaded
06:27.21timelyxand find has a kitchen sink
06:27.47timelyxthe hardware home key already solves windowing
06:27.54timelyxi know. i used it a lot reorganizing bugzilla
06:28.06timelyxand it's fast, globally consistent, and actually works well
06:28.12timelyxnow, if you want to get me a good feature
06:28.12roopewith the current  design, yes.
06:28.20timelyxi'd take expose or an equivalent
06:28.29timelyxsomething that lets me see small window previews of my open app windows
06:28.40timelyxi talked w/ eero about that over lunch yesterday
06:34.30roopeyeah, there are several ways to do switching.
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06:37.34ysss__timelyx: it's an extra step, depending on how you are holding the IT, it may be inconvenient, etc ;) That's nitpicking like a crybaby probably, but enhancement no less.
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06:39.16ysss__w/ limited screen space, i think it's inevitable to incorporate gestures to represent more actions.
06:40.32timelyxanyone suggesting gestures will be shot
06:40.35timelyxconsider yourself shot
06:40.51ysss__Why? It's conceptually sound.
06:40.58timelyxit breaks the web
06:41.03timelyxit breaks maps.google.com
06:41.06timelyxit breaks docs.google.com
06:41.10timelyxit breaks reader.google.com
06:41.19timelyxit isn't sound
06:41.24timelyxit's arrogant and stupid
06:41.34timelyxit makes suppositions which are known bad
06:42.04ysss__You have limited screen estate, you can only point at single pixel\icons currently, other than expanding the screen by smartly 'hiding' the elements, you can just incorporate motion...
06:42.16timelyxno.
06:42.21timelyxbecause the web applications respond to motion
06:42.24timelyxand then you break them
06:42.26ysss__How about gestures, but not on the whole screen.
06:42.27timelyxand then users complain
06:42.32ysss__only gestures that starts\ends on the toolbar, say.
06:42.40timelyxhow does that work when people full screen and turn off the toolbar?
06:42.46roopeinside the scope of the browser panning IS the gesture already.
06:42.55timelyxroope: which is the biggest pain i have
06:42.58timelyxit already breaks the web
06:43.00timelyxand people complain
06:43.02ysss__instead of back-forward (multiple icons), you have a joystick like interface (single dot), and this shouldn't break any web.
06:43.02timelyxand fairly loudly
06:43.10timelyxand not just people, managers  too
06:43.11roopewell, panning won't be going away.
06:43.18timelyxroope: actually, it might
06:43.27roopeno, it wont. :)
06:43.52timelyxysss__: personally, i think expose style is the only way to go
06:43.57timelyxthat's probably pie menus and friends
06:44.07timelyxwhere you use a button offscreen (the app menu button would work)
06:44.13timelyxget a pretty overlay w/ all sorts of things
06:44.27ysss__timelyx: that's the screen estate expansion.. but it involves extra step, yeah?
06:44.27timelyxi'm not pushing that yet
06:44.38timelyxit's safe
06:44.45timelyxyou press the hardware menu key
06:45.02timelyxyou can't try to use any pixel of real estate
06:45.05timelyxnor any direction
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06:45.09timelyxnor any timing
06:45.15timelyxbecause a web app is free to rely on all of them
06:45.29timelyxyou need a way to say "i need talk to the browser and not the web app"
06:45.45ysss__well, yes.
06:45.49timelyxgood,
06:47.00ysss__i don't think completely free-hand gesture works, due to the problem you've just described. What I mean is that it's a logical method to expand the function of existing widgets.
06:47.19roopegestures are useful as shortcuts.
06:47.22ysss__Like the joystick analogy, or iphone's sliding button, etc.
06:47.31roopebut they cannot be the only bethod to access something.
06:47.38timelyx++roope
06:47.45roopemost users never find them.
06:47.49timelyx++roope
06:47.50ysss__Yes, agreed.
06:47.59timelyxanyway, while i'm a power user
06:48.03timelyxi will not design for power users
06:48.07timelyxmy primary goal is:
06:48.09timelyx1. do not break the web
06:48.16timelyxmy secondary goals are:
06:48.19timelyx2. do not break the web
06:48.22timelyx3. see rule #1
06:48.36ysss__pulldown menus are conceptually already incorporating gestures. and it works.
06:48.38timelyxi have tertiary goals of course...
06:48.53timelyxysss__: actually, it doesn't
06:49.06timelyxroope will almost certainly tell you that people don't discover the app menu in the home scxreen
06:49.08roopegoing outside the discussion scope of the browser, yes we'll have more gestures
06:49.10ysss__you click on the menu, it expands, you slide and navigate to the desired item.
06:49.17timelyxand often the app menu in applications
06:49.26roopeinside the scope of the browser, i don't really see much happening.
06:50.02timelyxi will try to provide solutions. and they probably will include things like oriented navigtion
06:50.25timelyxbut they will have to be modal in the sense that you trigger them, use them, and then discard them
06:50.40timelyxthey won't be modal in the "you can't interact w/ anything else while open" sense
06:50.58timelyxbut they probably will mean "you can't interact directly with things beneath this"
06:51.28timelyxi tried sketching it once on my laptop, i'm not sure if my laptop has blue screened since then
06:51.44timelyxit's hard to keep track, my mac panic'd this week and i'm pretty sure my laptop bluescreened
06:51.52ysss__heh
06:52.03timelyxmy workstation has very good uptime
06:52.09*** join/#maemo jonek (n=njonek@hexbox.de)
06:52.18timelyxbut even the dreamhost mirror of my workstation has bad uptime
06:52.26timelyxand yes, dreamhost blames me :)
06:52.36timelyx[sanjay]$ uptime
06:52.36timelyx<PROTECTED>
06:52.51timelyxbut it's not because of load, i'm not killing the box w/ load
06:52.52ysss__gesture works quite well on viewing documents (picsel browser), I guess the main sticking point w/ the browser is that it's an always expanding application by itself.
06:53.12timelyxysss__: gestures are fine for dead trees
06:53.25timelyxas long as the thing you're poking won't poke back, no problem
06:53.32ysss__yep
06:53.37timelyxbut wait until your yabber chat includes a flash avatar
06:53.51timelyxflash is equivalent to the web browser
06:54.03timelyxwait until the pdf viewer stops sucking (this may take several years)
06:54.07ysss__They have picsel browser for the linux motorola phone (e680 or whatever).. it'd be nice if they release for maemo, seeing Nokia already has areement w/ Picsel in the past.
06:54.11timelyxpdf documents can be full applications
06:54.39timelyxwait until media player supports SMIL applications
06:54.44timelyxor Flash for that matter ...
06:54.49timelyxthose are both full applications
06:54.57timelyxor rather application hosts
06:55.06timelyxwait until image viewer supports full SVG
06:55.12timelyxSVG is a complete application host
06:55.17timelyxhrm, what am i missing?
06:55.30ysss__yeah
06:55.47ysss__i'm missing my lunch
06:55.52timelyxnow, you might say, "oh, it's only a browser problem"
06:55.55timelyxbut it isn't
06:56.10timelyxand you or whomever says it is shortsighted (and stuck in 1989)
06:56.20timelyxsince most of these have been around since the early 90s
06:56.26timelyxcertainly interactive PDFs
06:56.39timelyx(yes, our pdf viewer is absolutely useless and doesn't even support forms)
06:56.53ysss__does evince?
06:56.55timelyxFlash probably dates to 95
06:57.00timelyxin my testing? no.
06:57.12timelyxi tried it on a desktop and gave up
06:58.00timelyxbefore SVG was WMF, i can't recall if it supported interaction
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06:58.36timelyxoh, there was also VML which predates SVG
06:58.44timelyxit kinda died, but practically speaking it's coming back
06:58.59timelyxthere's also of course standard "applications" like "maemo mapper"
06:59.19timelyxif they try to emulate google maps, then you can't use whatever "clever" gestures you invent
06:59.21timelyxfor the same reason
06:59.48timelyxthe only solution you have is something like the DOOM (?) port which has a special area you can use as a tap region
06:59.50ysss__Have you used picsel?
07:00.16timelyxseems like it requires flash?
07:00.25timelyxi think roope (?) mentioned it
07:00.43timelyxthe special area is basically my plan for browser...
07:01.12ysss__Btw, I don't -like- gesture for the sake of having gesture, I just think it's an underused method that -can- be incorporated smartly to expand user interaction. Both in capability and convenience.
07:01.37timelyxi don't dislike it just for the sake of disliking it
07:01.42timelyxi have good reasons for disliking it
07:01.57timelyxdiscoverability, failure to solve the root problem of needing a normal way to do something, and breaking the web
07:02.01timelyx(clearly not in that order)
07:02.28ysss__picsel is a document viewer that can read all office files (xls, doc, ppt, just about all text files format, html, pdf, and various image formats). Quite popular on palm and pocketpc..
07:02.46ysss__Ok
07:02.56ysss__ahh kfc is here.. chow time
07:03.08timelyxysss__/ roope: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167
07:03.43timelyxysss__: note that we already have tabs in the browser
07:04.03timelyxthey're just not exposed because one of management or a ui designer complained
07:04.10timelyxnot sure which, frankly i don't really care
07:04.23ysss__i don't want tabs in n800 browser. i think it's waste of space.
07:05.17_Monkeyneither are great reasons to consider it
07:05.46timelyxanyway, the main reason i don't want tabs is the same reason i don't want open link in background
07:05.51timelyxour device can't handle the load
07:06.08timelyxand making it too easy to switch windows or have lots of windows will fool users into believing it can
07:06.16timelyxresulting in them hurting themselves and thinking the browser sucks
07:06.36timelyxi'm happier to tell them no when they ask for tabs or open link in background
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07:06.52ysss__set a limit of open windows.
07:07.17timelyxpeople will complain or ask for a way to change it
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07:08.11MoRpHeUztimelyx: good point about browser's tabs....
07:08.24ysss__i use 2 to 3 (no more than that) browser windows when i have to multitask.
07:08.46timelyxi find myself using 4, which is basically asking for crashes
07:08.51ysss__i want to load new links in background because when i use gprs it's dog slow, and i want it to start loading while i focus on the current window.
07:08.55timelyxi'm usually only really using 3
07:09.07timelyxysss__: yeah, thing is.... you don't need to do that
07:09.16timelyxare you paying for gprs bits or just airtime?
07:09.27timelyxgecko has a feature to precache links
07:09.36ysss__loading in background will help mask, or alleviate the limitations of the platform (slower performance, high probability of being tethered to slow connnection also)
07:09.45timelyxbut the problem is...
07:09.54timelyxin the states especially, but presumably everywhere else
07:10.02timelyxif you're using gprs, you're paying for bandwidth
07:10.11timelyxwhich means anything we download for you costs money
07:10.11ysss__not everywhere else definitely
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07:10.30timelyxi say for you. because nokia pays my bill, and therefore i personally shouldn't care
07:10.38ysss__heh
07:10.41timelyxbut my sister complains about minutes that i spend when i call her
07:10.51timelyxand she'd complain if i sent her an sms
07:11.10timelyx(which is reasonable since it's cheaper for me to call her and easier for both of us if i use email)
07:11.33timelyxand most plans in the states/canada charge a fair bit by the byte
07:11.42timelyxnow, it's true, apple (*not* nokia) is changing this
07:12.03timelyxbut until it does, turning on a precache feature by default is a really bad idea
07:12.10timelyxif you have microb, you can see if the feature works
07:12.15timelyx(i don't use it)
07:14.31ysss__but what does bandwidth cost has to do with having an (optional?) feature of loading new links in the background?
07:15.03timelyximagine instead of having to click links
07:15.15timelyxthat your browser automatically precached the content for the links
07:15.17ysss__I see this having to do more w/ browsing habit and slow connections.
07:15.18timelyxw/o loading them
07:15.30timelyxnote that loading is the expensive thing to the browser
07:15.33timelyxit doesn't mind downloading
07:15.38timelyxbut loading is *very* expensive
07:15.43timelyxit requires lots of memory and lots of cpu
07:15.52ysss__I'd be pissed and confused, because that's such a wasteful logic.
07:16.23ysss__because it very likely will be loading links that I will probably not open.
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07:16.44timelyx*shrug*
07:16.55timelyxif you're not paying for bandwidth but value time, it could be worth it
07:16.58ysss__I think we're talking about a different thing..?
07:16.59timelyxif you're paying for bandwidth
07:17.08timelyxthen i suggest not opening links in background
07:17.16timelyxyou can easily end up downloading a huge thing that you don't want
07:17.29timelyxor worse, your browser will probably crash and you'll have no idea why
07:17.32ysss__when I say load things in the background, I mean I choose a link, select to 'open it in new window', and have the window load NOT IN FOCUS
07:17.48timelyxyes, i know
07:17.49ysss__not precache all links on your current page
07:18.03timelyxactually, the algorithm doesn't pick them all
07:18.08timelyxit's theoretically smarter than that
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07:20.40guardianmorning
07:20.40_Monkeyaloha
07:20.59ysss__moin
07:25.48ysss__oh wootoff
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07:30.19unique311i cannot get java going on my n800 to save my life
07:30.38unique311installed the jalimo packages
07:30.52unique311can't get the .jar files going
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07:56.49konttoriiSo, what do you guys think of the new nokia interface: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeCKIRfElaI
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07:57.07konttorifor the 'n', not 'i' phones.
07:57.43timelyxnor 'e'
07:58.09timelyxit sounds like BeOS twicher
07:58.21timelyxtoo bad BeOS had it um...
07:58.42timelyx15 years ago
07:59.14konttoripretty good actual user test video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dZ5krLWcq4&NR=1
07:59.42timelyxare they replacing the awful nav button w/ a better one?
08:00.20konttoridpad? Well, judging from the video, it's different, and I hope it's impossible to make a worse dpad.
08:00.38timelyxi've seen most of those bits, both hardware and software demod
08:00.50timelyxi wonder if there's a public announcement about the other detail
08:01.00timelyxbut yeah, overall it looks like an improvemnet
08:01.05timelyxent
08:01.36timelyxi'd still probably buy a gen2 iPhone or a gen 2 gPhone
08:02.21konttorithe latter video says the controls are of ngage class, but then again, it's produced by NokNokTv, so I wouldn't trust it that much
08:02.21timelyxi played w/ the iPhone last friday for <20mins, and the features it has work better than the two videos you linked
08:02.38timelyxand i presume that nokia put their best face forward
08:02.46timelyxwhereas i managed to crash safari on the iPhone :)
08:04.08konttoriNice. Did it run out of mem or what crashed it?
08:04.21konttoriI would think that webkit is already stable enough itself.
08:04.33timelyxdunno
08:04.39timelyxi wasn't using a complicated page in the end
08:04.40MKBporbably just timelyx's bad gadget karma :P
08:04.54timelyxalthough i had loaded planet earlier
08:05.07timelyxi think it ended up being a simple bugzilla page that did it in :)
08:05.18timelyxkonttori: all things considered, it's still not so bad
08:05.21konttorithe 'new navi wheel' looks quite tedious to use. The circle is so small.
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08:05.34timelyxi bluescreened the samsung Q1 when i got it
08:05.39timelyxin approximately similar testing
08:05.45konttoritrue. Might be a nice phone in the end. And I love the A + B button placement there.
08:06.03timelyxis this the n81?
08:06.12konttoriyeah.
08:06.16timelyxhttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=394208 sad
08:06.46konttoriYou can see the buttons pretty well in this pic: http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/29/nokias-n81-slider-is-a-real-n-gager/
08:07.11timelyxhrm
08:07.26timelyxso it has a b. does it have select start?
08:07.54konttoriWell, it has other buttons. I suppose they can be used for select start.
08:08.09konttoriselect start are not that used, so their placement is not that important
08:08.42timelyxmodern gamepads have ab xy lr select start
08:09.04timelyxor at least, they did when i was growing up
08:09.15timelyxthe wii is of course slightly different from the snes
08:09.27timelyxor n64
08:09.55konttoriyeah, well, of course xy would be nice, but AB are the necessities. XY are nice but not a must have.
08:10.22timelyxgetting ab is definitely a good start
08:10.32timelyxbut it's like, hello, welcome to 1985
08:10.44timelyxi'm glad nokia is out of the stone age and only 20 years behind
08:11.11konttoritrue. But then again, the casual games you'd play on mobile phone don't necessarily need that many keys anyway.
08:11.24timelyxdepends what you're trying to do
08:11.33konttoriI don't see myself playing street fighter on that thing.
08:11.40timelyxi played actraiser on my sony ericsion s710a
08:11.48timelyxit worked quite well
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08:12.01timelyxi'd never consider doing it on any of the nokia phones i have
08:12.05konttoriI might like to play final fantasy or just about any casual game. Most of them do pretty well with just 2 buttons.
08:12.12timelyxand i have probably 4 atm w/ a 5th on the way
08:12.29konttoriI had ngage, which was really great for picodrive.
08:12.37timelyxpicodrive?
08:12.59konttoriI played through the megadrive catalogue that I originally missed with it.
08:13.16konttoriYeah, you get 100% speed on full screen for megadrive / genesis games
08:13.48konttoriand state saving and loading with touch of a button. thus, it was perfectly fine for casual sessions as well.
08:13.49timelyxsorry, i don't recognize picodrive, is it a game or an engine? i could google, but i'm reading one of your links
08:14.07konttoripicodrive is a megadrive / genesis emulator
08:14.35konttoriuses cyclone, a pure ARM assember emulator of 68000 processor
08:14.42timelyxheh
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08:15.30konttoriwhich made it as fast as it was. Really great stuff from just two coders.
08:16.10konttoriNokia should put an emu there with DRM and agree with sega to start selling original genesis catalogue for it.
08:16.28timelyxanyway, i'm not really sure i want games specificlaly
08:16.35timelyxi mostly want it to be possible
08:16.43konttorinow that would make ngage a true platform instantly
08:16.44timelyxif the device can't handle them, it's in trouble
08:17.06timelyxwhat prevents nintendo someday from moving into the cell industry? :)
08:17.31konttoriI think nintendo is wise enough company to focus on gaming.
08:17.32timelyxthey have better ui engineers, better customer relations, better marketing ...
08:18.05konttoriit might add audio / video conferencing to mobile and tv platforms, but nintendo will always focus on gaming first.
08:18.22timelyxthey already have a web browser
08:18.33timelyxbut yeah, i don't expect them to move away from game as core
08:18.41bilboedanybody knows if those new nokia devices are maemo-based ?
08:18.45timelyxbut that doesn't mean their devices couldn't come in and kill
08:18.49timelyxbilboed: they aren't
08:18.52timelyxthey're s60
08:18.58konttorithey are S60 based
08:18.58bilboedtimelyx, argh, sucks
08:19.01timelyxnokia is converging on ideas
08:19.09timelyxso similar things might come from maemo too
08:19.22timelyxbut nokia likes reinventing the same bad or good ideas more than once
08:19.27bilboed:)
08:19.32timelyxmore chances for different mistakes and inconsitencies
08:19.39konttoriyeah, and next big maemo release might be a leap forward.
08:19.45timelyxor backwards
08:19.51konttorior sideways
08:19.52timelyxlife is like a box of chocolates...
08:20.34konttoriyou have to work for nokia to know what you are getting next?
08:20.54timelyxeh
08:20.57timelyxheh
08:21.26timelyxeven if you work for nokia you never know
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08:24.19guardianhi, i wanted to reinstall my 3.1 sdk by launching the script
08:24.32guardianwhen installing the targets, it says "Adding unselected devkit: debian"
08:24.39guardianthen it fails to install the virtual packages
08:24.40guardianany idea ?
08:31.54ysss__timelyx: which version of microb do you use?
08:32.27timelyxum, depends where
08:32.35timelyxbut generally the 2nd beta release
08:33.06timelyxi'm not certain and don't pay too much attn to it
08:33.20roopeWell, I at least complained about browser tabs.
08:33.26roopeBut so did my managers.
08:33.38timelyxpractically speaking, i only need bug reports
08:33.38timelyxi can fix things based on them
08:33.38timelyxsee bug 255
08:33.39timelyxdid someone turn that off?
08:33.39_MonkeyBug 255 might be found at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255
08:34.51ysss__timelyx: does this work on yours? http://individuals.interactivebrokers.com/en/software/demoWebTrader.php
08:38.50roopeSorry, so how I set myself ot watch a certain component on the public bugzilla.
08:39.07roopeI just set to watch that email address?
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08:39.18roopeThat's 'logical' :p
08:41.25timelyxroope: the point is you can watch anyone
08:41.27timelyxnot just components
08:41.35timelyxanyway, you figured it out
08:41.47timelyxysss__: gimme a bit
08:42.14timelyxroope: if there's a component which isn't dying which has a qa that's used in another place, let me know, and i'll fix it
08:43.02ysss__timelyx: sure. a few friends who trade on IB want to buy n800 if the demo on that page loads.
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08:47.21timelyxysss__: i hope you're willing to walk me through using this thing
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08:50.30timelyxysss__: i got a server error
08:51.56ysss__timelyx: it should show a table instead of the server error.
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08:52.35ysss__timelyx: desktop firefox works fine with it. I don't know about opera.
08:55.26timelyxysss__: if you disable plugins on desktop, does it work?
08:55.38timelyxalso, are you trying minefield or ff2?
08:55.58timelyxoh, also, while you're at it
08:56.06timelyxgo to about: in your microb
08:56.08ysss__timelyx: firefox v2. i will try disabling plugins.
08:56.12timelyxcopy the useragent from it
08:56.15timelyxgo to about:config in firefox
08:56.50timelyxright click (* or whatever)
08:56.55timelyxselect new>string
08:57.00timelyxgeneral.useragent.override
08:57.05timelyxok
08:57.14timelyxenter the useragent you got from about: in microb
08:58.23ysss__ok
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09:01.36konttoriI was just trying to play with fceu but I can't realy get it to work.
09:01.42konttoriI installed from extras.
09:01.48timelyxwhat's that?
09:02.03konttorithe nes emulator for maemo
09:02.48floriangood morning
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09:04.37timelyxnoon
09:05.55ysss__Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux armv6l; en-GB; rv:1.9a6pre) Gecko/20070810 Firefox/3.0a1 Tablet browser 0.1.16 RX-34_2007SE_4.2007.26-8
09:06.00ysss__is that all useragent string?
09:07.26timelyxyes
09:07.49konttorifceu seems otherwise just fine, but the fullscreen mode won't toggle on correctly and I don't see the right side on screen buttons at all
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09:16.54timelyxoh darn
09:17.06timelyxoops
09:17.09timelyxroope: i'm running nin now
09:18.15ysss__timelyx: yes, it's the useragent.
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09:20.06timelyxfwiw, our useragent is invalid
09:20.13timelyxbut that's not really relevant
09:20.25timelyxfeel free to file a bug documenting the steps you took to discover it was their fault
09:20.36timelyxi.e. each question i asked, each step you took to test
09:20.41timelyxthen mark it invalid
09:20.53timelyxit's good to have places explaining how to analyze...
09:22.04ysss__will do.
09:22.35ysss__Have you heard of any other sites inaccessible due to microb's useragent string?
09:27.10JaffaMorning, all
09:27.32ysss__morning
09:27.33_Monkeyaloha
09:33.16timelessroope: you make it to the office?
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09:46.08AD-N770good morning
09:47.58kulveAD-N770: hmm.. You're a asm guru, right? :)
09:54.17AD-N770kulve: not bad
09:55.57kulvehttp://svn.xiph.org/trunk/speex/libspeex/arch.h
09:56.17kulveAD-N770: does those functions look like something that could be "easily" ported to use dsp asm?
09:56.26kulveblackfin example: http://svn.xiph.org/trunk/speex/libspeex/fixed_bfin.h
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10:04.32roopeWell now.
10:04.38timelessyou're in?
10:05.23roopeyeah.
10:05.31timelessok, over in 2mins)
10:06.19ysss__timeless: why is microb useragent invalid?
10:06.32timelessysss__: the rule is X/Y not X Y
10:06.41*** part/#maemo hidave (n=dave@218.247.165.82)
10:06.43timelessand we have "Tablet browser" or something
10:06.51ysss__yeah there is.
10:07.25timelesshttp://www.mozilla.org/build/revised-user-agent-strings.html
10:07.25ysss__So that's the reason for interactivebrokers.com rejecting microb.
10:13.58timelessmight be the right spec
10:13.58timelessnot sure
10:13.58timelessbut in short, it's not valid
10:13.58timelesstrust me
10:13.58timelessbut the odds that the site *knows* it isn't valid are nill :)
10:14.59AD-N770kulve: I don't tried to write dsp asm yet
10:15.34AD-N770kulve: but looks like something that fits on dsp
10:21.57kulveAD-N770: I've got that running fine on the dsp now, but it's slightly slower than realtime without the asm optimizations
10:24.41kulvetimeless: you were involved about planning the new bugzilla components?
10:26.54kulvethe description for "System software" seems to be "Hildon Application Framework" even though it includes also the lower level stuff like busybox etc..
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10:44.07lardmanmorning
10:44.08_Monkeyaloha
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10:44.37lardman_Monkey: Do you think I'm Hawaiian?
10:44.37_Monkeylardman: no idea
10:44.45lardman_Monkey: I'm not
10:44.46_Monkeylardman: huh?
10:44.52lardmansilly bot
10:45.19lardmanah well, I suppose aloha is mainstream enough for me
10:50.32lardmankulve: have you looked at the dsplib docs, etc.?
10:53.11kulvelardman: quickly. It seemed to contain a bit too complex functions for me. I.e. they would probably be useful if I would like to port the whole speex to dsp, but it's enough for me to get just the basic math functions ported
10:53.58lardmanI've read some docs about optimisations for the c55
10:54.02lardmantrying to dig them out
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10:56.42lardmanWell the dsplib has vector add, etc.
10:57.21lardmanand max, min
10:57.39lardmanspru422h.pdf if you don't have it open
10:59.08lardmanThe TMS320C55x DSP Programmer’s Guide (spru376a.pdf) is probably what you want
10:59.31lardmanParticularly ch3 - Optimizing (sic) C Code
10:59.54kulve422h is old ;)
11:00.12lardmanis it? I'll have to grab an updated one then
11:00.55kulve422i seems to be newer. Dunno if there are any real differencies..
11:01.33lardmanokay, I'll grab that one and delete the old one
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11:22.25xlencebonjour
11:22.26_Monkeyhey, xlence
11:22.54xlencey a t-il des francais ici ?
11:23.51lardmanpourquoi?
11:24.18pellonon y a pas de francais
11:24.59xlencesimplement parce que je pensé que c'été principalement un canal anglophone
11:25.06xlenceet que moi et l'anglais sa fais deux
11:25.07xlence;)
11:25.14lardmanoui, c'est vrai
11:25.26pelloapparemment tu as aussi du mal en français lol
11:25.52xlenceun peu
11:25.53xlencelol
11:26.25xlenceje viens de recevoir mon n800 et j'ai des questions. y a t-il quelqu'un qui a un peu de temps pour m'aider ?
11:26.50pelloje viens de terminer l'apéro
11:26.56pelloc'est l'heure de manger
11:27.01lardmanoui, mais seulement avec francais facilement
11:27.04pellomais vas-y
11:27.29kulveälämölö
11:28.12lardmanThe other option is a private conversation to avoid contravening the English only rule
11:28.23celesteh_rulesje parle un peu de français.  Qu'est que c'est vos questions?
11:28.31celesteh_rulesit's a rule?
11:28.38lardmandunno
11:28.39xlenceje n'arrive pas a installer certain programme comme mnotify, kagu, mirage, ...
11:28.56xlenceil me dit que certaines librairies sont manquantes
11:29.31pupnikzzztr: he's missing some libraries
11:29.40lardmanYou need to ensure you have certain additional repositories defined
11:30.16xlencehow to add repositories ?
11:30.17celesteh_rulesvous avez le "application manager"
11:30.46celesteh_rulesil faut que vous avoir plus de "repositories"
11:31.12celesteh_rulesil y a un menu qui s'apple 'Tools'
11:31.23pupnikzzzhttp://www.gronmayer.com/n800/repos/index.php   there's a repository index i hadn't seen before - nice overview
11:31.47celesteh_ruleset la il y a un Application Catalog
11:31.54celesteh_rulescliquez ça
11:31.58lardmanwould be good if it had install files for each repo too
11:32.07pupnikzzzgreat idea
11:35.58pupnikzzzi wonder how one would say "one needs to add repositories in the application manager"?  On peut ...
11:36.16lardmanOn doit
11:36.29pupnikzzzheh ok :)
11:37.04celesteh_rulescliquez "new"
11:37.04celesteh_rulesici, c'est une liste de repositories:  http://www.gronmayer.com/n800/repos/index.php
11:37.09celesteh_rulesutilizez cette list pour mettre neuveaux repositories dans le applications manager
11:37.21celesteh_rulespour example:  catalog name:  Debian Nokia repository , Web address: http://repository.maemo.org/extras , Distribution: bora, Components: free non-free
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11:37.28celesteh_ruleswhat, my mangled french not good enough?  ;)
11:37.49lardmancertainly faster than mine :)
11:39.01celesteh_rulesi lived in france for a year, but, to aparaphrase mark twain, i never did have any luck getting those folks to understand their own language
11:39.29lardman:D
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11:41.10xlenceok j'ai pu installer mnotify et kagu grace à : http://repository.maemo.org/ bora | free non-free
11:41.16xlencemerci pour votre aide
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11:42.18celesteh_rulessuper
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11:44.10xlenceil ni a plus que skype que je n'arrive pas à installer
11:44.33melmoth"Il faut ajouter des repository dans le gestionnaire de programmes"
11:44.41xlenceapplications manquantes : osso-dsp-modules-rx-34 , libplayback-1.0 ........
11:44.47melmothi use "repository" even when speaking french.
11:44.51xlencemais lequel ?
11:46.28xlenceetant basé sur Debian, ni a t-il pas un fichier liste avec les repository que vous pourriez m'envoyer avfin de remplacer le mien ?
11:46.37xlencegenre sources.list
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11:46.44melmothil ya un sources.list
11:46.54melmothxlence tu as deja un xtemr ou ssh d installé ?
11:47.04xlencexterm oui
11:47.04lardmanDo you have the latest flash image? Skype should just install without problems
11:47.27melmothfarpait.tu as le meme probleme en utilisant apt-get plutot que le gestionnaire graphique la ?
11:47.47melmothEt deuxieme piste: sois sur d activer le mode 'red pill'
11:47.53pupnikzzzhmm "ajouter" - to add-to
11:47.53xlencema version est IT OS 2007 ver. 3.2007.10-7
11:48.09xlencec'est quoi le mode red pill ?
11:48.17melmothbouge pas
11:48.19celesteh_rulesje pense que c'est necessaire à 'flash' votre n800 avec un neu 'operating system'
11:48.38melmothhttp://maemo.org/community/wiki/enableredpillmode/
11:48.44melmoth:)
11:48.58melmothJe pense qu'il est necessaire de reflasher ton n800 avec une nouveau systeme d exploitation :)
11:49.23melmotheffectivement skype il marhe que avec le dernier qui est plsu recent
11:49.54lardmanSee what the version is - control panel or "cat /proc/version" ?
11:50.12lardmannot sure about the last one, but something buried under /proc
11:50.51xlenceok
11:51.00xlencej'ai activé le mode red pill
11:51.23xlencecela me fais un peu peur de le flascher alors que je viens juste de le recevoir et que je ne le maitrise pas encore
11:51.29xlenceest ce simple ?
11:51.33kulvecat /etc/osso_software_version
11:51.41melmothc est tres simple xlence
11:51.53xlencememe en etant sur un pc avec linux ?
11:52.15melmothhttp://maemo.org/community/wiki/howto_flashlatestnokiaimagewithlinux/
11:52.40melmothje ne sais pas comment ca se passe ailleurs que sous linux
11:53.07melmothtu trouve l application flasher qui va bien avec ta distrib. Tu trouve le firmware qui va bien avec ta tablette
11:53.16melmothdiatonic one ?
11:53.18zeenixam i on the wrong channel? :)
11:53.20lardmanmais voir le version tout d'abord
11:53.25melmothAnd now for your french lesson :)
11:53.33lardmanzeenix: We're learing french :)
11:54.24derfI would've gone with "on a besoin de" instead of "on doit", but French class was a long time ago.
11:54.38pupnik"It's like.. they've got a different word for *everything*!" - Steve Martin
11:54.47lardmanderf: True, I was going for a commanding attitude ;)
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11:55.00derfWell, then, carry on.
11:55.13zeenixlardman: what for? even jean-luc pickard doesn't speak french
11:55.41melmothxlence la derniere version est bien RX-34_2007SE_4.2007.26-8_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
11:56.16lardmanzeenix: We took pity on a chap who doesn't speak English, but he's probably still better than we are
11:56.26lardmanat English ;)
11:57.18xlenceok je suis sous ubuntu feisty, mais sur le site http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/d3.php il ni a que pour dapper et il n'est pas préciser comme sur les autres si c'est pour le n800 ou e n770
11:58.02pupnikmelmoth: vous etes sure il n'a pas le it2007 version moste recente?
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11:58.53melmothi am .
11:59.02xlencela version flasher-3.0-static est elle bonne autrement ? sachant que mon pc est sous intel ?
11:59.24melmothsource=http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php (you need to log in with your n800 mac address first)
11:59.27timelesskulve: yes, i haven't gotten around to fixing the description
11:59.32timelessprovide a better description and i'll use it :)
11:59.46lardmanxlence: Oui, il va marcher
11:59.59lardmanor elle va marche
12:00.01melmothxlence, ca devrait pas poser de pb, tu as choisi static, donc meme si tu nas pas les lib qu il faut, elles sont dans le binaire
12:00.15xlenceok, je suis entrain d'essayer d'enlever la batterie... y a un truc ou quoi pour l'enlever
12:00.17xlencej'arrive pas
12:00.18xlence;)
12:00.29melmothen general, je donne un chti coup sec
12:00.43melmothsinon, je crois que c est ta mac addresse, donc ifconfig et tu l as
12:02.17melmothxlence, c est effectivement ta mac addresse, sans les :
12:02.23xlenceok, j'ai recuperer le dernier firmware
12:03.05xlencequestion , est ce que cela va m'effacer ce que j'ai deja configurer dans le n800 (different point d'acces wifi, association avec le tel, programme installer ?)
12:03.45ysss__what's up, my french homey..
12:03.55pupnikthis is very educational
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12:05.01pupnikoui, flashing the n800 will erase configuration and installed programs
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12:05.55xlenceok, thank pupnik and melmoth
12:06.54pupnik:)
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12:10.44xlencefaut il brancher le chargeur pour le flasher ? faut il le cable USB d'origine ? (il me reste 1h en utilisation et j'ai un cable USB normal)
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12:13.35pupniknon et non
12:13.41geaaruhi at all, with new browser (mozilla engine) can i start browser in fullscreen mode?
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12:16.11timelesspupnik/kulve: got a suggested description for the System software product?
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12:19.15xlenceje resume ce qu'il faut faire, merci de me dire si c'est bon ou pas :
12:19.23xlenceon debranche le chargeur, on eteint le n800 et on le connecte au port USB du PC
12:19.23xlenceOn lance ./flasher-3.0 -F RX-34_2007SE_4.2007.26-8_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R
12:19.23xlenceUn message "Suitable USB device not found, waiting" apparait sur la console
12:19.23xlencebrancher le chargeur
12:19.38xlenceaprès je comprend pas trop ce qu'il faut faire ...
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12:21.37melmothxlence, de mémoire, attendre.
12:21.40melmothapres, ca reboote
12:21.44melmothet  c est fait.
12:21.46kulveI think this channel should be english-only ..
12:22.00melmothxlence, /msg pour du francais :)
12:22.01xlencemais il faut brancher le chargeur ? ou 1h de batterie suffit ?
12:22.43melmothje l ai toujours fait avec la betterie pleine, mais y en a jamais eu pour une heure, beaucoup moins (5mn )
12:22.55eijkHi!
12:23.10melmothi always did it withe a full battery (reflash), but it never has been an hour long process, it s more a matter of 5 mn
12:23.13xlenceok, je tente de te parler en pv melmoth mais sa ne passe pas
12:23.16xlencepeux tu essayer ?
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12:26.22eijkI have got a small problem: I installed the bootmenu and copied the rootfs to MMC. Works fine, except: The filemanager now crashes as soon as I click anything in the left hand panel.
12:26.55eijkWhen I boot from flash for comparison, this does not happen. Could the file manager have problems with a rootfs of ~500 MB size?
12:27.17kulveeijk: I had the same problem with the previous it2007 version, with mmc and with flash.
12:27.40pupnikxlence /msg nickserv help  /msg nickserv register   /msg nickserv identify  pour les messages privat
12:27.42kulvealthouhg my rootfs was a lot smaller that 500M
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12:27.44eijkSorry, should have read "right hand panel". Left hand panel seems to work to some degree....
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12:28.00kulveeijk: are you running the latest version?
12:28.08kulven800/770?
12:28.18eijkkulve: I am on the latest OS2006 on a 770.
12:28.23kulveoh
12:28.39kulveI have n800 and same sounding problem.. Or had the problem
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12:45.36eijkssvb: Are you there?
12:54.09guardiandoes it ring a bell: /scratchbox/tools/bin/misc_runner: SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD not set
12:54.20guardiani just reinstalled scratchbox and sdks from the scripts provided on repository.maemo.org :(
12:55.07cosmoforgot to set cpu transparency method when creating target?
12:55.19guardianwell the script created the targets
12:55.25guardianand i'm using the i386 one
12:58.02guardiangot it i guess
12:58.14pupnik_what was the solution?
12:58.14guardianthe package i'm using erroneously contains an armel executable
12:58.19guardianlaunched from postinst
12:58.20pupnik_ah
12:59.24ssvbeijk: yes
13:00.01eijkssvb: I just wanted to follow up on the memory corruption issue: It's currently completely gone for me!
13:00.28eijkssvb: I don't know how I should reproduce it now. So I am absolutely puzzled, what was causing it...
13:00.52eijkssvb: I had been on a bike trip with it, maybe it was humidity?
13:01.33eijkssvb: That could maybe reduce isolation between circuits of the WLAN and the memory controller or something like that?
13:05.49ssvbeijk: when I investigated this issue, it really could disappear suddenly and show up again with no visible reason
13:06.42eijkssvb: Hmm... you were in favour of a software reason, but doesn't this rather sound like hardware problems?
13:07.15ssvbeijk: by the way, do you have a stable wlan connection? my wireless router is behind two concrete walls, so signal quality is not the best
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13:08.17eijkeijk: Yes, the wlan connection is pretty solid: The router is only two meters away in the same room. (It crashes from time to time, though...)
13:08.33eijkSorry, I meant ssvb, of course...
13:08.42eijkStupid, talking to myself...
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13:09.22ssvbeijk: memtester reports addresses of memory which it considers bad, the point is that the offset of this bad address within 1K memory block was a constant value for one firmware revision, but a different constant value for another firmware
13:09.56eijkssvb: Hmm, for me it was never constant, if I remember correctly...
13:10.18ssvbeijk: for hardware fault I would expect either completely random addresses or a constant address not depending on firmware revision
13:10.42eijkssvb: Also, the problems already started with the "stuck memory address" test. So the other tests are not very reliable according to the documentation...
13:10.54ssvbeijk: so this is what makes me think that it is a software problem
13:11.47eijkssvb: Hmm... The other thing is, that I am not sure, a user land application really sees true hardware adresses...
13:24.37ssvbeijk: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2006-September/005607.html
13:25.17ssvbeijk: I modified memtester a bit to use mmap (so it allocates memory blocks at physical page boundaries)
13:26.41ssvbeijk: this 'a5' offset at the end of 'faulty' address changed to some other value for a different firmware version
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13:34.08ssvbeijk: I can try to find my patch for memtester which was used for tests is you are interested (the links from the mailing list are not valid anymore)
13:34.43ssvbeijk: s/is/if
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13:42.09ssvbeijk: so I suppose there might be something like 'use after free problem' in wifi driver: it could probably allocate some block of memory, free it, but continue to use it, overwriting the memory which could have been allocated to some other program already
13:42.46ssvbeijk: but that's only a speculation
13:44.46ssvbeijk: how large was the memory block that you used for testing?
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13:48.11eijkssvb: I tried different sizes, 4, 8, 16, 24
13:48.50eijkssvb: But if the problem occured didn't really depend on the size. When I had problems, I already had them with "4".
13:51.09eijkssvb: did you already see the problems at the "stuck address" test?
13:51.29ssvbeijk: the problem occured when you were 'lucky' enough to get a problematic memory page allocated as part of your memory block
13:52.28ssvbeijk: with a larger memory block, the chance of catching it should be higher, 24MB is only ~1/3 of all the memory available on the device
13:53.02eijkssvb: Ok, sounds like a little different problem to me... For me, if it happened, it more or less happened all the time...
13:53.05ssvbeijk: repeateable runs of the test program are likely to get the same memory allocated
13:54.05eijkssvb: well, in a way i had a similar impression: when using only 4 MB, I sometimes had to start a second time in order to induce problems...
13:54.26eijkssvb: with 24, it failed everytime
13:56.26ssvbeijk: what sounds different? once you catch the problem, repeatable runs of memtester always confirm it
13:58.59ssvbeijk: similarly if memtester run was 'successful', you are likely to get the same 'successful' result if you try to run memtester several more times in a row
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14:04.08simon_perreaulthi, I'm having trouble installing Maemo
14:04.21simon_perreault[simon@ringo scratchbox]$ ./loginERROR: Scratchbox is not properly set up!
14:04.56simon_perreaultcan anyone help me?
14:05.49cosmohm, interesting: http://patrickbaudisch.com/projects/lucidtouch/index.html
14:06.10cosmothat might work well on maemo devices
14:06.32pupnik_hi simon_perreault offhand i don't know what that error means
14:06.33lardmanhow do they sense the position?
14:06.44simon_perreaultpupnik_: mmm
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14:06.53cosmowebcam currently, see the video
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14:07.15lardmancosmo: Ah, okay
14:08.30lardmanflat buffers done, time to make them circular then try compiling!#
14:08.43simon_perreaulti'll just reinstall from scratch
14:09.49pupnik_simon_perreault: that's what i'd do - i used a debian host and scratchbox .deb packages
14:11.01simon_perreaulti'm on fedora at the moment. if it still doesn't work i'll install ubuntu in a vmware
14:11.28pupnik_there are also preinstalled vmware images containing a system with scratchbox
14:11.34simon_perreaultoh cool
14:11.35eijkssvb: well, I didn't have to try very hard to hit a bad block with 4 MB, so I am not sure if it's really about some localised bad blocks. I rather had the feeling that something interferes with data transfer.
14:11.39simon_perreaultpupnik_: where?
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14:11.58pupnik_vmware?
14:12.32simon_perreaultok, thanks
14:12.46pupnik__Monkey: vmware is a Maemo Development appliance for Maemo - http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/702
14:12.47_MonkeyOK, pupnik_.
14:12.54pupnik_blah
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14:24.10ssvbeijk: probably it is a good idea to develop some specialized test program which would try to investigate the issue, for example what region of memory gets corrupted? is it a single byte/word or a large block? This information might help when checking wifi driver sources (their open part)
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14:41.08eijkssvb: definitely
14:42.34eijkssvb: maybe one could also write a program which just allocates a block and then use a debugger to create a hardware breakpoint for any write accesses to that block. Don't know if that's possible on a 770.
14:43.38eijkssvb: then one could really distinguish, if there are real writes involved, or if the underlying hardware corrupts things.
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16:10.44lardmanbye chaps
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17:02.59GMortIs there a way to enlarge the text size in Xchat on the N800?
17:04.05mgedminisn't there a preferences dialog where you could do that?
17:05.43GMortI will look for that thanks.  The usual buttons dont's work.
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17:09.36GMortThanks mgedmin.  Found it.
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17:13.11CardinalFangHow can I debug the booting process?  My 770 with OS2007h-e just started up from being off, and seemed to boot three separate times.  Black screen -> white -> "Nokia" -> progress bar -> hands -> half-painted UI.  Repeat twice.  Finally finish painting UI and ready to use.
17:14.58*** part/#maemo pello (n=pello@unaffiliated/pello)
17:15.02mgedminCardinalFang: try http://maemo.org/community/wiki/reportingrebootissues/
17:16.35CardinalFangmgedmin, Ooo, thank you.
17:24.22CardinalFangAh, the OOM-killer.
17:24.32mgedminOOM?
17:24.33_MonkeyOOM is out-of-memory (I think, again)
17:24.44mgedminhow did you deduce that?
17:25.04mgedminI don't think you can see that in /proc/bootreason or the lifeguard logs
17:25.18CardinalFangIt's in the dmesg.  For this particular boot, it didn't kill something that was essential.  :(
17:25.25mgedminah
17:25.26mgedminouch
17:25.51mgedminI wonder if a swap partition would help
17:26.35CardinalFangI have one.  In fact, I went out of my way to make it double the size the UI sets up:  128MiB.
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17:37.22mgedminso it's not brought up early enough
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17:55.21CardinalFangmgedmin, Hmm, maybe it's not.  The dmesg lists swap activation at time 293 and OOM reaping at time 488.  The order is good, but that doesn't mean the swap is ready in time, yes?
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17:55.31mgedminhmm
17:55.41mgedminit should be, I think
17:56.09mgedminwhat process did it kill?
17:56.33CardinalFangI don't know what time units those are.  Are jiffies centiseconds on here?
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17:57.01CardinalFangmgedmin, It killed metalayer-crawl this time.
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17:58.46mgedminI don't know about those time units; dmesg on my desktop seems to use seconds (with microsecond precision)
17:59.19mgedmindo you have many mp3 files on a mmc card?
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18:00.01mgedminI wonder if there's a leak in metalayer-crawler, or if it just needs more ram than you have
18:00.01CardinalFangNo, maybe a dozen, with another two dozen Ogg/Vorbis (that I currently can't play).
18:00.27CardinalFangI have a dozen e-books also.
18:01.03mgedminmetalayer-crawler only indexes multimedia files (music and videos), so e-books are irrelevant
18:01.10CardinalFangCould be, could be.
18:01.23mgedminon the other hand, it crawls over your whole filesystem, so if you have many files & directories it may have some impact
18:02.26CardinalFangBut, it open()s or mmap()s the files to look for magic numbers, or looks at the filename.  Thorough/big vs lossy/small.
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18:04.24CardinalFangmgedmin, I don't know where the problem is, so I hesitate to blame metalayer-crawler this early.  I'd like to see what's going on.
18:04.45CardinalFangMaybe I can use ulimit to keep it in line.  :)
18:06.52CardinalFangmgedmin, On the off chance that you're interested in the dmesg:  http://pastebin.com/m6ed4510c
18:11.56mgedmininteresting
18:13.27mgedminit had 1.5 megs of free ram plus 130 megs of free swap, but failed an order-0 allocation (which afaiu means a single 4kb page)
18:13.31mgedminI wonder what gfp_mask=0x200d2 means
18:13.48mgedminmy linux knowledge is insufficient here
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18:20.35CardinalFangMaybe I'll slurp down the source later and find out.
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19:10.59xlencebonsoir, j'aimerai connaitre le mot de passe du compte root
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19:19.49Biguphum... xlence did not notice it was an english speaking forum
19:20.05Biguphe wanted to know maemo's root password
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19:24.37||cwwell, it's well documented that there isn't one
19:24.51||cwr is it rootme?
19:25.03||cwdamned, i forget.  it's documented anyway
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19:42.10Bigup||cw: i was just translating
19:42.13Bigupgood evening !
19:42.16Bigupi leave
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20:02.23CardinalFangIs there a hook into emitting an information message to the user, like "connected to %s" displays for new Wifi connections?
20:03.09zakxyou can implent that easily in python
20:03.58CardinalFangYou don't happen to know the name of the widget/window offhand, do you?
20:04.56zakxhttp://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/python_maemo_3.x_howto.html
20:05.12zakxlook for "Receiver sample application"
20:05.29zakxerr, Sender
20:06.21CardinalFangAh, osso.SystemNote.  Grassy.
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20:53.04trevarthanHowdy folks.
20:53.35celesteh_ruleshi
20:53.36_Monkeyniihau, celesteh_rules
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21:14.16NeoStriderhey fellows
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21:14.25*** join/#maemo NeoStrider (n=daniel@cm-tvcidade-nri-C8B1D623.dynamic.brdterra.com.br)
21:14.39NeoStriderhey folks
21:15.00celesteh_ruleshowdy
21:15.01_Monkeyniihau, celesteh_rules
21:15.09celesteh_rulesstupid monkey
21:15.41NeoStriderhahahah
21:15.58NeoStridermaybe you guys can help me into something:
21:16.26DaniloCesarHi Neo!
21:16.39NeoStriderwhen running my app from the icon, it dies after some seconds...but when running from xterminal or "run command" from system-load applet, it runs perfectly
21:16.46NeoStriderhey DaniloCesar
21:17.15NeoStrideryou guys know something about DBus and SDL apps not getting along with each other?
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21:17.55DaniloCesarNeoStrider, Can U redirect the error message to a file and see what is happening?
21:18.23NeoStriderhardly...
21:18.46NeoStrider<PROTECTED>
21:20.22celesteh_rulessounds like an environment issue
21:21.01celesteh_rulesi would suspect that there's a path set someplace in xterm or in the app runner that's not set when you click on the icon
21:21.14celesteh_rulesa library or something is probably failing to load
21:21.17DaniloCesarjust put on your .desktop file, exec=/locate/of/your/app 2> /tmp/err.log
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21:22.44NeoStridergood!!!
21:22.47DaniloCesarprobably
21:23.07NeoStriderthats my #1 suspect
21:23.16DaniloCesar=)
21:23.27DaniloCesarC?
21:23.28NeoStrider(anyway, my game uses only absolute paths)
21:24.15NeoStriderwhat?
21:25.13celesteh_rulesyou're doing dynamic linking, no?  then libraries don't necessarily have absolute paths
21:25.14DaniloCesarAngstron?
21:25.15_MonkeyAngstron is http://angstron.garage.maemo.org/
21:27.42NeoStridercelesteh_rules:  but the game runs for some seconds...if Im good enough, I can even pass the first level
21:29.03celesteh_rulesum, weird
21:29.21DaniloCesarHummmm
21:29.26DaniloCesarDo you use gstreammer?
21:29.39NeoStriderlooks like some stack or buffer difference
21:29.49NeoStriderme , not directly...but maybe SDL does
21:29.53celesteh_rulesit's a time thing?  Like, it doesn't matter what you do, it just quits after a short time?
21:31.03NeoStridernot really
21:31.05DaniloCesarI read something about a bug in gstreammer pipeline today.... Maybe is it...
21:31.11NeoStridersometimes is more time, sometimes ,less
21:31.27NeoStriderI will try measuring the time
21:31.30celesteh_rulesok, but it doesn't matter what you're doing?
21:31.53NeoStriderhumm...the game has a fixed flux
21:32.08NeoStrideryou go through some screens and then into the 3D world
21:32.14DaniloCesarNeoStrider, Did you get the error message using the "2>" approach?
21:32.21NeoStridersometimes it halts on the 3D part, sometimes on the loading screens
21:32.22celesteh_rulesso there's not a state in game-play that's horked. so it could be a race condition, perhaps
21:32.33NeoStridercouting
21:32.37NeoStrideryeah
21:32.58celesteh_rulesthe error message will shed light, hopefully
21:33.06NeoStrider24 seconds on the first try...
21:33.16NeoStriderI havent installed the new version with the > yet...
21:33.40DaniloCesarjust change your .desktop file....
21:33.52NeoStrideri cant
21:33.55DaniloCesarwhy?
21:33.58celesteh_rulesman, that's perplexing
21:33.59NeoStriderpermissions
21:34.09DaniloCesarsudo gainroot?
21:34.10NeoStriderok
21:34.22NeoStridernow Im going to try the new package with the >
21:34.41DaniloCesarhummm... ok
21:35.02NeoStridersudo gainroot doesnt work
21:35.35DaniloCesarNeoStrider, hummm
21:35.36NeoStridertesting
21:35.48NeoStriderhalted even before I could play!
21:36.02NeoStriderthe device freez'd
21:36.02celesteh_rulesare you on the latest OS version?
21:36.16NeoStrideryes
21:36.19NeoStridergregale
21:36.19_Monkeyit has been said that gregale is something else entirely
21:36.23DaniloCesarbut now you got a message
21:36.37NeoStriderthe device killed the process
21:37.11NeoStriderbut no log!
21:37.59DaniloCesarit's very strange
21:39.49DaniloCesartry 1>> /mmc1/log.txt  2>> /mmc1/log.txt
21:40.18NeoStridermy system is misbehaving
21:40.21NeoStridergoing to reboot
21:40.55NeoStrider1>> /media/mmc1/log.txt 2>> /media/mmc1/log.txt?
21:41.31DaniloCesaryou need to get some message... linux not use to kill applications without a error message....
21:41.49DaniloCesaror maybe with strace command.....
21:41.58NeoStrideryeah...im reading a book about the kernel ;-)
21:42.21DaniloCesarbut I don't know if maemo have this command
21:42.32NeoStriderlet me check if it works without the >
21:43.23DaniloCesarYes... Try to redirect 1>> (stdout) and 2>> (stderr)
21:43.32DaniloCesarto different files
21:44.51celesteh_rulesif it really works from the prompt, then, um, the most likely culprit is either environment or error catching, maybe?
21:44.54NeoStriderclicking the icon: maemo-af-desktop opens the .desktop file (.inactive on the package)
21:44.58DaniloCesarthe only thing that I can remember is the LD_PRELOAD
21:45.22NeoStriderthen, it finds out the .service file and gives it to dbus1, right?
21:45.33NeoStriderand dbus1 realises it needs to run the app
21:45.47celesteh_rulesit's a timing thing, so it's having trouble recovering from something like a race condition.  maybe the OS asks it for something and it doesn't know where to find it?
21:46.25NeoStriderwhat could it be?
21:46.42NeoStridermy app is very cpu hungry
21:46.46NeoStrideraround 70%
21:46.49NeoStrider(3D game ;-))
21:47.09DaniloCesarNeoStrider, Angstrong or another game?
21:47.41NeoStriderangstron
21:47.41_Monkeyhmmm... angstron is http://angstron.garage.maemo.org/
21:47.56NeoStridershut ut, _Monkey
21:47.57_MonkeyNeoStrider: sorry...
21:48.07NeoStriderhahah...
21:48.10NeoStriderlove this monkey
21:48.46DaniloCesarUHAHUHUAHUAHUUHAUH
21:49.56NeoStriderstrange...if there is a opened xterminal, it dies too
21:50.28celesteh_rulesok, my guess is that it's clobbering shared memory
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21:50.52NeoStriderbut why it doesnt do sh*t when called from xterminal?
21:51.57celesteh_rulesum. no idea.
21:52.12NeoStriderok...trying again the > thing
21:52.24NeoStridermaybe the memory is cleaner than before
21:52.53celesteh_ruleswell, i could speculate in that manner, but it would just be speculation.  maybe it doesn't matter if you clobber xterm's memory or something
21:53.18celesteh_rulesbut it really sounds like a race condition, given that it stops at unpredictable times NOT based on what you're doing
21:53.52celesteh_rulessome shared resource
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21:54.26celesteh_rulescould also be related to audio or video, of those happen on the interrupt level.
21:54.48NeoStriderbut im only using plain SDL
21:54.57celesteh_ruleslast guess is that it adds overhead to launch from an icon which causes it to run out of memory faster OR makes it slower responding to interrupts
21:55.15celesteh_ruleswhat is SDL?
21:55.21NeoStrideragain, no log
21:55.33celesteh_rulesor, it could be gremlins
21:55.42DaniloCesarSimple Direct Layer
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21:55.53NeoStrider_Monkey:  SDL is Simple DirectMedia Layer http://www.libsdl.org
21:55.54_MonkeyOK, NeoStrider.
21:56.09NeoStriderSDL?
21:56.10_MonkeySDL is Simple DirectMedia Layer http://www.libsdl.org
21:56.55celesteh_rulesnice
21:57.10NeoStridergood
21:57.52celesteh_rulesis there a maemo debugger?
21:57.53NeoStriderthe same thing DOOM uses
21:58.10NeoStrideronly raemo
21:58.19NeoStriderbut I dont have internet connectivity
21:59.08NeoStriderhey
21:59.09DaniloCesaris raemo bood?
21:59.13NeoStridergot a idea
21:59.17NeoStriderscratchbox
21:59.17_Monkeysomebody said scratchbox was like the glue that ties it all together
21:59.26NeoStriderlet me test under SDK_PC
21:59.37celesteh_rulesheh, i just assumed you were in scratchbox . . .
22:00.09NeoStriderI was testing on the device
22:00.32NeoStrideri just use sbox for building the binary
22:00.40NeoStriderI even build the package manually
22:01.14celesteh_rulesthat's cool.  alas, i am sboxless since i use OS X
22:02.50DaniloCesarSB doesn't works ok with Ubuntu64bit....
22:03.07NeoStriderubuntu 32bit \o
22:04.22DaniloCesarSo I need to emulate a VirtualMachine of a INdT's Ubuntu32bit to run SB....
22:04.41DaniloCesarBy the way, VirtualBox is very good to do this job! =)
22:05.12celesteh_rulesdoes virtualbox work on OS X?
22:05.58celesteh_ruleshm, intel only, fair enough
22:07.07NeoStriderthat VMWare image?
22:07.39celesteh_ruleshahaha, i can only access my intel mac through VNC.  There's something funny about doing remote virtual.  i need something separating me even further.  ;)
22:08.06DaniloCesarNeoStrider, what?
22:08.12NeoStriderthats why I love my ia32 ubuntu...simples are very simple
22:09.44NeoStriderforget =-)
22:09.47NeoStrideras vezes me embolo
22:10.04DaniloCesarLol =)
22:10.08DaniloCesarMe too
22:11.15DaniloCesarNeoStrider, You said that you use raemo, right?  Is it good? Is it helpful?
22:11.45*** join/#maemo pdz- (n=paul@135.14.169.217.in-addr.arpa)
22:12.13NeoStriderno no
22:12.17NeoStriderI dont
22:12.23NeoStriderI dont have internet connectivity on the device
22:12.43NeoStriderbut it looks good
22:13.17celesteh_rulesi have virtualbox (yay!) where do i find a VM of scratchbox?
22:13.23DaniloCesaryes.... But I was thinking.. I dev my apps direct on device with sshfs.... And I think that is the same result..
22:13.31DaniloCesarcelesteh_rules, wait...
22:14.00NeoStrideryeah... I guess
22:14.25DaniloCesarcelesteh_rules, https://garage.maemo.org/projects/maemovmware/
22:14.47celesteh_rulesawesome
22:16.11DaniloCesarcelesteh_rules, I will recommend you somethings... Install vbox-addons in your guest machine, and mount (editing your /etc/fstab) your folders on your VM...
22:17.59celesteh_rulesthanks for the tips
22:18.10celesteh_rulesit's late in my time zone
22:18.25celesteh_rulesand i must go to sleep or fall asleep with my face on the keyboard
22:18.32DaniloCesarlol...
22:18.43celesteh_rulesgoodnight!
22:18.47NeoStriderok
22:18.54NeoStriderhappened on the sbox too!
22:19.22DaniloCesarNeoStrider, The same error happens on SB?
22:19.28NeoStriderDaniloCesar:  yes
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22:29.17pupnikbon appetit
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22:47.35NeoStriderangstron?
22:47.36_Monkeyangstron is http://angstron.garage.maemo.org/
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23:10.44erstazihello anderson_s
23:10.47erstazihello Andy80
23:10.55Andy80hi
23:10.55_Monkeyque tal, Andy80
23:10.57NeoStriderhello erstazi
23:11.01erstazihello NeoStrider
23:11.02NeoStriderhello Andy80
23:11.05NeoStriderhello anderson_s
23:11.33erstaziNeoStrider: how have things been going?
23:11.57NeoStridererstazi: trying to make AngsTRON stabler..specially on N800
23:12.39erstaziNeoStrider: I am not familiar with AngsTRON, is it a game?
23:12.50NeoStrideryes
23:12.52NeoStriderangstron?
23:12.52_Monkeyangstron is http://angstron.garage.maemo.org/
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23:14.45erstaziNeoStrider: looking (:
23:16.41erstaziNeoStrider: sehr gut
23:17.00NeoStriderdanke!
23:17.12NeoStriderI do my best
23:17.17NeoStriderbut its not that fast yet
23:18.07erstaziNeoStrider: will this work on OS2006?
23:18.48NeoStridersure...thats my main target
23:19.01NeoStriderindeed im having some issues with OS2007
23:21.01erstaziNeoStrider: ah
23:21.03erstaziwill try it
23:21.20NeoStridergood
23:21.26NeoStridertry it from the xterminal
23:21.34NeoStriderrunning from the icon is quite unstable
23:22.03erstaziNeoStrider: ok
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23:24.18erstaziI love to scp all day
23:24.39NeoStriderscp?
23:25.18erstaziyeah
23:25.32erstazisecure copy, part of ssh
23:25.48NeoStrider_Monkey: scp is secure copy, part of ssh
23:25.49_MonkeyOK, NeoStrider.
23:25.54erstaziNeoStrider: one question
23:26.07NeoStrideryup
23:26.17erstaziNeoStrider: how is it that the deb package is 2mb and the install is only 0.3mb?
23:26.32NeoStriderdata files
23:26.44NeoStriderthe binary is only 0.3, but the data files are ~2mb
23:26.49NeoStriderbut this deb is hacked
23:27.00NeoStriderI added the data files after creating the .deb
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23:27.22NeoStriderso the declared size must be 0.3 and the checksum must be set acordingly
23:29.17sbz_Monkey: ruby-hildon?
23:29.18_Monkeybugger all, i dunno, sbz
23:29.21sbzhi, every body can learn to _Monkey ?
23:30.18NeoStrideryes
23:30.32NeoStrider_Monkey: ruby-hildon is not rubbish
23:30.32_MonkeyOK, NeoStrider.
23:30.40NeoStriderruby-hildon?
23:30.41_Monkeyi think ruby-hildon is not rubbish
23:31.24sbz_Monkey: ruby-hildon is port of hildon bindings in ruby language is also http://alterego.freeshell.org/projects/ruby-maemo/
23:31.24_Monkey...but ruby-hildon is not rubbish...
23:32.15NeoStrider_Monkey: forget ruby-hildon
23:32.15_MonkeyNeoStrider: I forgot ruby-hildon
23:32.16pupniksbz - tell it to forget ruby-hildon, then reset the hint
23:32.20NeoStridertry again
23:33.26NeoStrideranyone knows a good source of information about programming with unix pipes?
23:33.50NeoStriderfrom a C/C++ app
23:34.58sbzNeoStrider: sure, beej guide is the best for that http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~beej/guide/ipc/
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23:35.17NeoStriderbeej's guide to networking rocks!
23:35.31sbzipc too :)
23:35.45erstazi_Monkey: forget scp
23:35.46_Monkeyerstazi: I forgot scp
23:35.49erstazi_Monkey: forget SCP
23:35.50_Monkeyerstazi, I didn't have anything matching scp
23:35.54erstaziSCP is a means of securely transferring computer files between a local and a remote host or between two remote hosts, using the Secure Shell (SSH) protocol. SCP means Secure Copy (See openssh)
23:36.14NeoStridertry saying
23:36.26NeoStrider_Monkey:  SCP is a means of securely transferring computer files between a local and a remote host or between two remote hosts, using the Secure Shell (SSH) protocol. SCP means Secure Copy (See openssh)
23:36.27_MonkeyOK, NeoStrider.
23:36.31sbzit come from BSD project called openssh  :)
23:36.31NeoStriderscp?
23:36.32_Monkeyscp is a means of securely transferring computer files between a local and a remote host or between two remote hosts, using the Secure Shell (SSH) protocol. SCP means Secure Copy (See openssh)
23:37.05NeoStriderIm a _Monkey übber master! muahahahahahah!
23:37.11sbz_Monkey: ruby-hildon is port of hildon bindings in ruby language is also http://alterego.freeshell.org/projects/ruby-maemo/
23:37.11_MonkeyOK, sbz.
23:38.40sbz_Monkey really looks like to bot "purl", is it perlish ?
23:38.40_Monkeyi haven't a clue, sbz
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23:42.40erstazisbz: I believe so
23:44.20pupnikhm was just going to ask Neo something
23:44.42erstazipupnik: quicker than rice
23:45.32pupnikbeen playing with gltron and mesa lately - pretty well done tronlike game in 3d
23:45.33erstazisbz: scp is similar to the BSD rcp protocol
23:46.04erstazircp does not encrypt, but technically neither does scp, scp just uses ssh for that
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23:46.28erstazihi setite
23:46.38pupnikis there rcp for maemo?
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23:59.17NeoStriderim back
23:59.41NeoStridererstazi: did you tried my game already?

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