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| 01:42.53 | livingtm | I copied the maemopad example and attempted to change its name. now i get the error "dpkg-source: error: source package has two conflicting values - newproject and maemopad". I cant seem to figure out where i need to change the name to straighten this out |
| 01:46.09 | Milhouse2 | Anyone able to confirm that Planet Maemo (http://planet.maemo.org/) and Bugzilla (https://maemo.org/bugzilla/) are both DOWN right now? |
| 01:48.03 | lle2 | Milhouse2: I think the whole maemo.org cluster of sites is moderately fucked |
| 01:48.44 | Milhouse2 | the home page and wiki (midgard) seem to be ok |
| 01:48.55 | Milhouse2 | but several deeper links are, as you say, fucked |
| 01:49.01 | Milhouse2 | pissing me off |
| 01:49.49 | lle2 | for the last couple of weeks all of them have been either broken or very slow |
| 01:50.15 | Milhouse2 | i don't suppose i have any right to be pissed off though - it's not as if i'm paying for a serivce but a degree of professional hosting isn't too much to ask is it? |
| 01:50.24 | Milhouse2 | whores drawers |
| 01:50.36 | Milhouse2 | up... down... up... down... |
| 01:52.40 | Milhouse2 | I just tried to validate the Planet Maemo url via the w3c validation service and it is indeed giving "Service Unavailable" errors, so that helps confirm it isn't my end thats causing the problem. thanks lle2 for checking/replying. :) |
| 01:52.55 | lle2 | np ;) |
| 01:53.14 | lle2 | funny thing is that the layout is broken on n800 |
| 01:53.30 | Milhouse2 | beginning to wish they'd left it unchanged |
| 01:53.41 | lle2 | it seems to be broken on firefox (iceweasel 2.0.0.3) as well |
| 01:54.06 | unique311 | safari xp |
| 01:54.14 | lle2 | makes me wonder what the hell they test it with |
| 01:54.20 | Milhouse2 | test? |
| 01:54.35 | lle2 | yeah, it's more like a question, not an answer ;) |
| 01:55.47 | unique311 | working over here.. |
| 01:56.22 | Milhouse2 | Planet Maemo still down here - http://planet.maemo.org/ |
| 01:56.31 | unique311 | news is down |
| 01:56.39 | Milhouse2 | Make sure you refresh/ctrl-r/ctrl-f5 etc. |
| 01:56.55 | unique311 | news is planet |
| 01:56.56 | Milhouse2 | home page (http://maemo.org) is UP for me |
| 01:56.58 | Milhouse2 | ah, right |
| 01:57.30 | Milhouse2 | i thougt you meant the News link on the Home page which takes you to somewhere else other than Planet! :) |
| 01:57.44 | unique311 | well it takes you to news.. |
| 01:57.56 | Milhouse2 | Maemo can never have enough News pages!! |
| 01:58.02 | Milhouse2 | Home->News takes you to Garage News (this is up) |
| 01:58.06 | unique311 | maemo.org/news/ is the same as planet.maemo.org |
| 01:58.13 | lle2 | it's like the login and account creation on the home page which seem to be totally unrelated |
| 01:58.54 | Milhouse2 | Christ, there could be 3 "news" pages! |
| 01:59.07 | Milhouse2 | News at the top takes you to maemo.org/news |
| 01:59.11 | lle2 | none of which have anything in them |
| 01:59.21 | edt | You are not alone. maemo has been slow and unavailable at times here too. |
| 01:59.24 | Milhouse2 | News in the middle takes you to maemo.org/news/community |
| 01:59.29 | Milhouse2 | and then of course there is the Planet |
| 01:59.39 | unique311 | ya |
| 01:59.54 | lle2 | maybe setting up a bunch of new mailing lists will solve the problem |
| 02:00.03 | Milhouse2 | I worry for the future of the Internet Tablet platform if this is how they can fck up a web site |
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| 02:00.27 | Milhouse2 | No wonder the UI is so... interesting. |
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| 02:02.03 | lle2 | well, we can always throw a few dozen more project managers at it, I'm sure it will help improve things |
| 02:02.07 | edt | actually once you get used to the UI its fairly usable. I would like it if it remembered the browswer setting for a site. eg when using rss and going to one or two sites it gets tiring to have to rezoom, ad reposition the page the same way EVERY time.... |
| 02:02.57 | Milhouse2 | I would class that as a classic lack of attention to detail... pretty much the same problems that blight the maemo.org site redesign |
| 02:03.17 | Milhouse2 | Initially it looks nice, then you start noticing stuff like multiple News links |
| 02:03.26 | edt | and have the home a refresh keys work as pgup and pgdn after the menu key is selected would really help too |
| 02:03.30 | Milhouse2 | which each link to different News pages... |
| 02:03.39 | Milhouse2 | Sean Luke pretty much nailed it |
| 02:04.06 | lle2 | how could the PMs have any attention to details of which their grasp is vague at best and plain wrong the rest of the time |
| 02:04.23 | Milhouse2 | http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/n800 - worth a read if you haven't read it already |
| 02:05.01 | Milhouse2 | If the UI is still lacking polish after the next iteration of IT OS (which would be what - the 7th?) I might have to give up on Nokia |
| 02:05.21 | Milhouse2 | Other vendors will eat their lunch |
| 02:05.42 | lle2 | haha, it will be a crappy lunch to eat |
| 02:05.47 | lle2 | I would pass |
| 02:05.50 | edt | actually a _good_ pm or manager does NOT need to understand how to do the job. Two years ago I would have said differently. I have had a good manager who does not know the how to for the last two years and our team has never been more effective. |
| 02:06.11 | Milhouse2 | I like the concept of the tablet and the form factor, I just think Nokia are dropping the ball with the general shoddiness of the software |
| 02:06.15 | edt | That is "how to do the job" from a tech perspective |
| 02:06.17 | lle2 | edt: that assumes that there are non-PMs in the organization |
| 02:06.54 | edt | there need to be a few - we do have the n770 and n800 plus a few phones... |
| 02:08.01 | Milhouse2 | I think you just need the right people in the right positions - a PM doesn't design the software, or dictate the look & feel. Projects like the Internet Tablet OS needs someone who focuses solely on look & feel, if you leave it to the developers you end up with... well, the Internet Tablet OS |
| 02:08.19 | lle2 | yup |
| 02:08.39 | edt | an apple pm/designer would have really helped |
| 02:08.45 | lle2 | I could write a book about what went wrong with the maemo software crap |
| 02:09.00 | edt | the mac in 83 was better than the pc is now in many ways |
| 02:09.13 | edt | (and yes I did have a mac 84...) |
| 02:09.31 | Milhouse2 | In any project the look & feel guys should have final say. In fact, the look & feel guys should be outside of any project group so that they have ultimate sign off on all projects. |
| 02:09.52 | lle2 | what if the look&feel guys don't have a clue? |
| 02:10.00 | edt | you fire them |
| 02:10.02 | edt | fast |
| 02:10.06 | edt | really fast |
| 02:10.09 | Milhouse2 | aye... fire 'em |
| 02:10.30 | Milhouse2 | they're uber critical |
| 02:10.34 | edt | you also need a good integrator that understands perf |
| 02:10.39 | lle2 | or if they are slaves to totally moronic product management drones |
| 02:10.59 | edt | so they can tell the ui guys this costs too much - try again... |
| 02:11.14 | edt | the N800 is guite usable |
| 02:11.26 | lle2 | if you like to tap a lot |
| 02:11.36 | edt | so nokia did not do a bad job of the above... |
| 02:11.51 | edt | there is room for improvement |
| 02:13.02 | Milhouse2 | Strong look & feel teams pays for themselves in the long run... not only do you get a more coherent product but the "not good enough, do this again" problems lessen as the developers understand the bigger picture |
| 02:13.14 | edt | yep |
| 02:13.30 | edt | its just hard to build an keep an effective team |
| 02:13.31 | Milhouse2 | eventually the developers get onto the same wavelenghth as the look&feel guys, and at that point it becomes a good situation. |
| 02:14.08 | Milhouse2 | I'd have thought some people would bite arms off to work on a project like this |
| 02:14.23 | Milhouse2 | but if it's mismanaged, then i could understand people getting hacked off |
| 02:14.30 | edt | would make tapping hard... |
| 02:14.35 | Milhouse2 | nose |
| 02:14.43 | Milhouse2 | :) |
| 02:15.06 | unique311 | wherez ma update nokiaaaaaaaaaaa. |
| 02:15.12 | edt | I have had my n800 for a week. I think I am getting to know what it can do |
| 02:15.29 | lle2 | unique311: what update? |
| 02:15.35 | edt | does nokia have a schedule for the next update? |
| 02:15.38 | Milhouse2 | hurrah - planet has returned |
| 02:15.52 | unique311 | update with skype... |
| 02:16.02 | unique311 | it was all over internettablettalk... |
| 02:16.17 | edt | and sdhc |
| 02:16.27 | Milhouse2 | looks like other bits of maemo.org are still getting to their feet |
| 02:16.31 | unique311 | but i think it was a asshole trying to get on someones nerves... |
| 02:16.36 | edt | wonder if they looked at the SD or CFS schedulers |
| 02:16.45 | edt | they would help when you load the box |
| 02:16.47 | Milhouse2 | yeah, i think sdhc has been confirmed by a reasonably reliable source (ie. no reason to doubt them!) |
| 02:17.27 | edt | and the also is someone working on logfs - an fs for larger flash memory devices |
| 02:17.30 | Milhouse2 | Bugzilla is back |
| 02:17.46 | Milhouse2 | Still slow... so no changes there. |
| 02:17.49 | Milhouse2 | :) |
| 02:17.58 | lle2 | good, would have made me nervous |
| 02:18.00 | edt | if that is ready for this fall adding it and CFS/SD would make a nice update on the kernel side |
| 02:18.21 | Milhouse2 | CFS or SD? whats that? |
| 02:18.42 | Milhouse2 | Skype was promised "by the end of the first half of 2007" - which means by the end of June... |
| 02:19.32 | Milhouse2 | CFS == The Completely Fair Scheduler ? |
| 02:19.40 | unique311 | hmmmm |
| 02:19.59 | unique311 | so the last friday in june? |
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| 02:21.12 | Milhouse2 | unique - yes that would be my guess, Fri 29 June |
| 02:21.53 | JussiP | Or rather, at June 29th they announce that it will be delayed slightly. To second half of 2007. |
| 02:22.24 | Milhouse2 | i wonder if tickless timers are in the N800 kernel |
| 02:22.56 | Milhouse2 | JussiP - possible, but so far Nokia have been pretty good with their promises |
| 02:23.31 | JussiP | I think that's up to Skype, not Nokia... |
| 02:23.50 | Milhouse2 | or maybe both :) |
| 02:23.50 | derf | Milhouse2: It wouldn't matter. They aren't using a recent enough version of GTK to see any benefit. |
| 02:24.14 | Milhouse2 | derf - i was thinking more about power saving, would tickless timers save on juice? |
| 02:24.25 | Milhouse2 | less waking up the cpu etc. |
| 02:24.41 | derf | A marginal amount, maybe. |
| 02:25.06 | lle2 | edt: we're probably not going ship with the new schedulers any time soon, bad luck with timing. |
| 02:25.14 | derf | But more recent versions of GTK are actually optimized so that all their timers go off at the same time (unless they explicitly need to be more accurate). |
| 02:25.24 | Milhouse2 | lle2 - no pun intended? ;) |
| 02:25.29 | edt | lle2 I was think N+2 |
| 02:25.40 | edt | where N is the current released version |
| 02:25.45 | derf | So, e.g., the CPU wakes up once per second, processes all the GUI timers, and then goes back to sleep. |
| 02:25.55 | lle2 | Milhouse2: :) |
| 02:26.00 | edt | it will take time to get the new schedulers on to omap |
| 02:26.01 | derf | In older versions, they are all out of sync. |
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| 02:26.31 | Milhouse2 | so if you have a 10 second timer, the cpu is woken 9 times before the timer is activated? |
| 02:26.33 | derf | So it will still wake up your CPU dozens/hundreds of times a second. |
| 02:26.35 | edt | think you will also need a timesource other than jiffies to either sd or cfs work well |
| 02:26.38 | derf | Milhouse2: No. |
| 02:26.51 | lle2 | derf: unless there is a shitload of timers it won't make much difference |
| 02:27.29 | derf | There are always a shitload of timers. |
| 02:27.33 | Milhouse2 | doesn't sound the most efficient design from a power saving point of view |
| 02:27.39 | edt | when I looke in /sys I saw a dyntick setting which was on |
| 02:27.48 | lle2 | it's using dyntick |
| 02:27.52 | edt | think we may be using dyntick on the n800 |
| 02:28.09 | lle2 | gets woken up about four times per sec, or at least that's how it was not too long ago |
| 02:28.15 | Milhouse2 | dyntick is for the high res and tickless timers, isn't it? |
| 02:28.24 | derf | Milhouse2: The point is that when you set a timer for 10 seconds, it goes off at xx:xx:xx.000 ms. |
| 02:28.26 | JussiP | Powertop for teh win. :) |
| 02:28.26 | edt | lle2 is the new release still based on 2.6.18 ? |
| 02:28.40 | lle2 | the immediate update to N800 is |
| 02:28.45 | derf | And every other timer set for n seconds also goes off at 0 ms after the second. |
| 02:28.52 | derf | So all the timers go off together. |
| 02:28.53 | lle2 | there's another update coming that will bump the kernel later |
| 02:29.38 | Milhouse2 | derf - i think i understand, thanks :) |
| 02:29.57 | Milhouse2 | didn't sdhc land on .20? |
| 02:29.58 | derf | But only with GTK 2.14 and later, and only if the application has been explicitly written to support it. |
| 02:30.09 | Milhouse2 | easy to backport though |
| 02:30.10 | edt | lle2 there is logfs which will probably make it into mm and which will stabilze it quickly. If this happens fast enough it might pay to use it late this year |
| 02:30.31 | lle2 | edt: at the moment planning is that the second update will be 2.6.21 |
| 02:31.05 | Milhouse2 | is there a tentative date for the second update... end Q3? |
| 02:31.26 | lle2 | can't say :) |
| 02:31.35 | Milhouse2 | just trying to get a rough idea of the release strategy... every 3 months-ish |
| 02:31.41 | edt | how the aswer is when it ready |
| 02:31.53 | edt | s/how/hope/ |
| 02:31.59 | Milhouse2 | that's always a good one, i try that but get funny looks from my users :( |
| 02:32.54 | edt | so you give scripted demos so they can see what they will get. Then you use a script you _know_ will fail and they understand its not ready just yet... |
| 02:33.13 | edt | next time they come by you do need that second script working.... |
| 02:33.37 | Milhouse2 | heck if I had the time to put together a scripted demo i'd ship that instead! ;) |
| 02:33.56 | lle2 | scripted users would be better |
| 02:34.36 | Milhouse2 | i'm sure they already are, they always ask the same things... "when will it be ready" and "why isn't it ready yet" |
| 02:34.38 | edt | lle2 on change I would love to see on the interface size is a page up and down. It could be done painlessly by using the refresh and home keys when the menu is active |
| 02:34.49 | edt | s/size/side/ |
| 02:35.20 | Milhouse2 | edt - i think thats already discussed in bugzilla |
| 02:35.28 | Milhouse2 | something about it being the default on the Mac, or something |
| 02:35.38 | Milhouse2 | but it refers to the scrollbar/thumbtrack |
| 02:35.44 | lle2 | I'm silently hoping there would be a little config applet allowing remapping the keys |
| 02:36.13 | edt | also a memory for the browser setting for sites (maybe configurable via bookmarks) |
| 02:36.30 | lle2 | as of today I'm never using the hw keys, except the fullscreen one |
| 02:36.50 | edt | I often use the hw keys. All of them |
| 02:36.51 | derf | The hw keys are mostly unusable. |
| 02:37.04 | Milhouse2 | digging the infobot - at work we use IRC a lot and bots are usually called "Monkey".. much more approriate |
| 02:37.17 | derf | Scrolling webpages with them is next to impossible, and navigating links with them is actually impossible. |
| 02:37.48 | lle2 | derf: yup, they seem to be carefully designed never to do anything useful |
| 02:38.08 | edt | derf depends on the webpage - they are the fastest way for me to reposition on the pages I commonly use |
| 02:38.13 | derf | Plus they are so hard to push... I find it easier to actually use the stylus to hit the menu button than my finger. |
| 02:38.20 | Milhouse2 | site specific options has been discussed in bugzilla as well (I think i brought it up in relation to Flash functionality - some sites such as last.fm shouldn't disable the screen) |
| 02:39.08 | edt | also some sites are better rendered with "optimized view" others are scrambled... |
| 02:39.20 | edt | would be nice if the setting was remembered |
| 02:39.33 | edt | one other use for the n800 is reading books |
| 02:40.09 | edt | with fbreader and books from baen (alot are free) you can spend a lot of time reading |
| 02:40.29 | edt | and the n800 has good enough battery life for it too |
| 02:40.58 | lle2 | I think the battery lasts pretty well these days if the wlan network is a quiet one |
| 02:41.30 | Milhouse2 | edt - Unfortunately I get the impression that Nokia have their hands tied where Opera is concerned... Nokia should have helped out with the Minimo dev or ported their own WebKit browser, we'd be in a much better position by now and not depending on some third party to pull their finger out if and only if Nokia pay them to do the development |
| 02:41.30 | edt | lle2 or you turn off wlan - which really helps |
| 02:41.55 | edt | so talk the the firefox people |
| 02:42.06 | Milhouse2 | edt - I'd buy an extended battery tomorrow if Nokia sold one |
| 02:42.19 | lle2 | Milhouse2: people are working on the mozilla based browser |
| 02:42.31 | edt | unless nokia have a really stupid contract firefox should be do able. |
| 02:42.55 | edt | lle2 good news - not that opera is working badly |
| 02:43.03 | lle2 | it just takes time, not trivial to get performance and stability into shape |
| 02:43.08 | Milhouse2 | I believe Nokia were well in with the Mozilla Foundation a few years ago, even sponsoring Minimo but they don't seem to be that involved in it's development - if they are it's one guy |
| 02:43.36 | lle2 | it's not just one guy |
| 02:43.53 | edt | lle2 do you know if anyone is looking at the accelerated X drivers? |
| 02:44.05 | Milhouse2 | lle2 - glad to hear that, although it appears to be only one guy (Tonkitti) who is porting Minimo to IT OS |
| 02:44.19 | lle2 | edt: yes, me and daniels |
| 02:44.21 | Milhouse2 | there may be more in the background working on IT OS, I hope so |
| 02:44.57 | edt | lle2 sounds like you have your hands full (of interesting stuff) |
| 02:45.05 | Milhouse2 | s/IT OS/porting Minimo to IT OS/ |
| 02:45.37 | edt | its sleepy time here |
| 02:45.57 | Milhouse2 | aye... i'm heading off too. nice chatting with you guys :) |
| 02:46.00 | lle2 | Milhouse2: dunno if they are working on minimo, have not followed that stuff too much, but the idea is to use mozilla codebase *soon* |
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| 02:46.19 | Milhouse2 | lle2 - that would be most excellent! :) |
| 02:46.30 | edt | lle2 thanks for the info |
| 02:46.34 | Milhouse2 | breaking the Opera dependency has to be a good thing in the long term |
| 02:46.53 | Milhouse2 | right, time to reboot my XP PC after the latest Patch Tuesday updates... sigh |
| 02:46.53 | lle2 | being compatible with 15% of desktop browsers is important |
| 02:47.17 | Milhouse2 | free and increased compatability - what's not to like? |
| 02:47.56 | lle2 | free is not terribly accurate ;) only if you talk about the license... |
| 02:48.52 | lle2 | same with almost all of the interesting OSS components |
| 02:49.16 | lle2 | maybe only with things like busybox we can say that they are "free as in beer" |
| 02:49.24 | Milhouse2 | true, Nokia will need to spend some time on porting and testing but once the code is more or less stable I bet it works out lower than the cost of Opera... and of course if Nokia (or the community) want to add something they can (more or less) at little cost |
| 02:49.52 | lle2 | I personally don't think the price is that big of a deal, it's more about functionality |
| 02:50.07 | lle2 | which may sound strange, but it's true |
| 02:50.51 | Milhouse2 | the (in)ability to change functionality is a major problem |
| 02:51.16 | Milhouse2 | as are the licencing terms which appear to be preventing a newer version of Opera being made available on 770s, for instance |
| 02:51.31 | Milhouse2 | that sucks |
| 02:51.44 | lle2 | yeah, but there was no alternative at the time, given the constraints |
| 02:52.30 | Milhouse2 | absolutely - i can understand 2 years ago that time to market was a concern, and minimo or any other alternative was probably not ready |
| 02:52.59 | Milhouse2 | but since then nokia should/could have considered alternatives that allowed it to go totally OSS where the browser is concerned. |
| 02:53.07 | lle2 | we looked pretty hard at using anything else, anything at all, but it was just not possible to make it happen, not with our organization at that time |
| 02:53.48 | Milhouse2 | hopefully the situation is improving rapidly :) |
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| 02:55.19 | lle2 | things have improved a lot, but gotten maybe worse in other ways, as always when organizations grow |
| 03:11.32 | livingtm | are there c++ bindings for gtk on the 770? |
| 03:15.34 | lle2 | it seems maemo roadmap has disappeared from the website |
| 03:16.08 | livingtm | i see references to hildonmm out there on the net, wondering if it is recommended |
| 03:16.12 | Milhouse2 | yeah, looks like a config error |
| 03:16.49 | Milhouse2 | Wiki isn't looking too clever either... |
| 03:17.20 | Milhouse2 | ... but it (Wiki) just loaded - took a long while |
| 03:18.49 | Milhouse2 | maemo.org is very, very, sllllloooow. |
| 03:20.16 | lle2 | well, it is supposed to be a kind of sourceforge work-alike, isn't it? ;) |
| 03:21.35 | Milhouse2 | ha... yes, it's very authentic |
| 03:22.06 | lle2 | this is what you get when nokia pays attention to detail |
| 03:23.39 | lle2 | amazing thing was that the guaranteed to be static mail archives were also really slow a few days ago |
| 03:23.44 | Milhouse2 | lets hope Nokia pay attention to the iphone UI when it's released :) I'm not a fan of Apple or the iPhone, but I bet it will have a consistent UI |
| 03:23.47 | Milhouse2 | :) |
| 03:24.07 | lle2 | I'm actually really looking forward to that device coming out |
| 03:24.31 | Milhouse2 | me too, it should make things "interesting" |
| 03:24.55 | Milhouse2 | I'm not actually a fan of touchscreen phones - I have a SonyEricsson W950i - and I see that Nokia aren't fans either |
| 03:25.46 | lle2 | phone UIs have steadily gotten worse since the original 2110 |
| 03:26.40 | lle2 | only the last batch of nokia's phones have started again approaching the level of simplicity with the most used functions |
| 03:26.46 | Milhouse2 | I liked the simplicity of the Nokia 8110 (Banana/matrix) :) |
| 03:26.51 | lle2 | yup |
| 03:27.00 | SeRi | Do mericales do excist? if they do please make euchreprof be ban!!! |
| 03:27.41 | SeRi | miracles* |
| 03:28.10 | Milhouse2 | Nokia on touchscreen phones: http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/11/nokias-not-enthusiastic-about-touchscreens-apple-lg-and/ |
| 03:33.00 | lle2 | now there's some deep insight in there |
| 03:33.27 | Milhouse2 | well it is only engadget :) |
| 03:34.22 | Milhouse2 | and there isn't much info in the linked article, but to be honest I'd say he (mr nokia bloke) is bang on the money |
| 03:34.54 | Milhouse2 | i like buttons and tactile feedback when i use a phone - i've learned this to my cost having owned the W950i for the last 6 months |
| 03:35.31 | Milhouse2 | the iPhone will look sexy and have the eye candy UI but without buttons... it's not for me |
| 03:36.13 | Milhouse2 | plus the hardware spec is pretty poor (no 3G - are they nuts?!) |
| 03:37.24 | GeneralAntilles | Why there so many crazy people on ITT? |
| 03:37.40 | Milhouse2 | Easy... I'm one of 'em! ;) |
| 03:37.52 | Milhouse2 | And quite probably one of whome you may be referring :D |
| 03:38.01 | GeneralAntilles | Nah |
| 03:38.07 | GeneralAntilles | I'm just reading the update thread. |
| 03:38.33 | Milhouse2 | The non-locked Skype thread? |
| 03:38.33 | GeneralAntilles | sapporobaby and euchreprof are the main ones |
| 03:38.42 | Milhouse2 | yep |
| 03:39.37 | lle2 | Milhouse2: I think full-body touchscreen is the future of mobile devices, additional kick-back from a haptic thingy as well |
| 03:40.02 | GeneralAntilles | I want some N900 spyshots so I have a reason to start saving up again. |
| 03:40.04 | lle2 | it will be good enough, I personally hate the keypads on most phones |
| 03:40.19 | Milhouse2 | lle2 - now if they can get some sort of feedback going on the touchscreen then I agree you may be right but without any sort of feedback touchscreens are a non starter for me |
| 03:40.49 | lle2 | Milhouse2: it will suck badly in finland though, during the winter ;) |
| 03:40.55 | GeneralAntilles | Well, they're not perfect, but I've gotten pretty good at typing on the Nokia's fullscreen keyboard. |
| 03:41.15 | Milhouse2 | lle2 - I wonder if anyone has consdired really thick gloves as a use case?! |
| 03:41.15 | lle2 | I like the thumb keyboard as well, only it should be transparent |
| 03:41.44 | lle2 | Milhouse2: you can't use the newer phones with gloves on anyway, so not much lost there |
| 03:41.45 | GeneralAntilles | That would be sweet |
| 03:41.56 | GeneralAntilles | and the weird text duplication bug really needs to be fixed. |
| 03:41.59 | Milhouse2 | lle2 - i think someone posted a deb here wich rendered the virtual keyboard trasnparent |
| 03:42.48 | Milhouse2 | General - not to mention the crazy auto capitalisation bug in Opera |
| 03:43.01 | GeneralAntilles | That's irritating as all get out. |
| 03:43.22 | GeneralAntilles | It's too bad today's devices are too small to have handwriting like the Newton. |
| 03:43.55 | Milhouse2 | I enter very little text into my N800 to be honest |
| 03:44.10 | GeneralAntilles | I post to forums and stuff at work. |
| 03:44.10 | Milhouse2 | The occasional Google/Wiki search... all my usual pages are bookmarked... |
| 03:44.28 | Milhouse2 | I've tried that, I'll do it in extreme cases but find it too much bother |
| 03:44.38 | Milhouse2 | to post from the N800 that is |
| 03:44.42 | GeneralAntilles | AIM has replaced texting since I got the data plan. |
| 03:44.50 | GeneralAntilles | It's not bad with the thumboard |
| 03:45.05 | GeneralAntilles | Better considering my alternative at work is nothing. |
| 03:45.43 | Milhouse2 | If I used AIM a lot, and I was in an office environment I'd get a BT keyboard |
| 03:45.44 | lle2 | the reason I'd like a Good (TM) touchscreen + haptic is that I need my hw to be in one piece, no slide-out keyboards |
| 03:46.34 | lle2 | or clam-shells or anything like that |
| 03:46.40 | GeneralAntilles | Retail, so only on short breaks and no keyboards. ;) |
| 03:47.04 | GeneralAntilles | I really like it when I'm on campus. |
| 03:47.34 | GeneralAntilles | Much lighter than schlupping a laptop around in 98°F weather with 132% humidity. |
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| 05:08.54 | cozyu | What is a picture~ |
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| 05:11.37 | GAN800 | Is there any way to change the zoom levels in Opera? |
| 05:13.07 | `0660 | yes |
| 05:13.25 | `0660 | try the plus and minus buttons on the top of n800 |
| 05:13.57 | GAN800 | Haha |
| 05:14.02 | `0660 | ? |
| 05:14.04 | GAN800 | presets |
| 05:14.25 | GAN800 | I want a 200% zoom level :D |
| 05:15.06 | GAN800 | Doubled, so images wont look all wonky. |
| 05:15.39 | `0660 | how about not closing your browser? :) |
| 05:16.05 | `0660 | then you would only need to change the zoom level when you reboot it |
| 05:17.21 | GAN800 | Right now, the closest presets are 180 and 240 |
| 05:17.34 | `0660 | oh |
| 05:17.44 | `0660 | try to file a bug about this |
| 05:18.32 | GAN800 | Damn, I was hoping I could just play with some configs. |
| 05:18.40 | GAN800 | Thanks! |
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| 05:51.29 | cozyu | !nick PET |
| 05:51.43 | PET | ;; |
| 05:51.57 | PET | What is a picture! |
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| 05:57.07 | PET | ;; |
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| 06:05.11 | konttori | Just put a blogpost on theme maker 1.0 release. Includes screenshots of NuvoBlack and NuvoPearl as well as a brief tutorial video on youtube to introduce people to theming. |
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| 06:05.19 | konttori | http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/ |
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| 06:43.31 | mk8 | Hi to all ... |
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| 07:04.09 | bencer | hi all, which is the best way to install scratchbox and all the stuff @debian sid ? maybe the scratchbox script + maemo sdk script that you can find the maemo.org ? |
| 07:04.57 | bencer | when i installed the gregale sdk i just added a repo to my sources.list ... |
| 07:05.20 | kulve | I would install SB from tarballs and then use the maemo script to install the targets |
| 07:05.30 | kulve | to any debian |
| 07:08.41 | bencer | i'm looking at the scripts, still we don't have an amd64 version of sb ? |
| 07:08.53 | kulve | afaik, no |
| 07:09.02 | kulve | but the i386 version should work ok |
| 07:11.48 | bencer | kulve: on native amd64 or inside a i386 chroot ? |
| 07:12.41 | kulve | native |
| 07:13.03 | kulve | sb is pretty self contained (or someting like that), so it shouldn't need a chroot |
| 07:13.15 | kulve | I'm running still 32bit linux, so I'm not 100% sure |
| 07:14.39 | bencer | have commented the arch checking in the script, now downloading, thanks kulve |
| 07:15.26 | `0660 | i thought sb is a just big hack around chroot :) |
| 07:17.03 | bencer | i'm working on yet another system monitor desktop applet, backend finished, now gonna write the frontend |
| 07:17.24 | bencer | for the hacker edition :) |
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| 08:15.15 | AD-N770 | good morning |
| 08:15.19 | kulve | ferenc: "We are moving the entire server from the XEN node to a brand new and powerful machine. There will be ups and downs during today's operation, but we hope that by the end of the day our performance problems will be history. Cross your fingers." |
| 08:15.28 | melmoth | yeah, just receieved the mail :) |
| 08:15.30 | melmoth | \o/ |
| 08:15.38 | kulve | so, let's see do we ever see maemo.org again ;) |
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| 09:48.58 | Free_maN | hello |
| 09:51.41 | Free_maN | <PROTECTED> |
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| 09:52.32 | Free_maN | I do not arrive compil cx3110x :'( |
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| 10:17.40 | sbaturzio | Aloha! |
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| 13:29.01 | Mikho | does anybody have experience with anjuta? |
| 13:29.11 | Mikho | I'm having trouble configuring my project |
| 13:29.35 | Mikho | I created a new gtk+ project, and it created all the makefiles and stuff all right, but... |
| 13:30.21 | Mikho | when I deleted main.c and replaced with main.cc of my own, it still insists on finding main.c |
| 13:30.46 | Mikho | even though I can't find a reference to main.c anywhere in any of the makefiles, Makefile, Makefile.in or Makefile.am |
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| 13:31.12 | Mikho | *** No rule to make target 'main.c', needed by 'main.o'. Stop. |
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| 13:35.38 | gomiam | Mikho: I suggest you use g++ instead of gcc |
| 13:35.49 | gomiam | it might get over the C/C++ dillemma. |
| 13:36.38 | gomiam | then again, is there a rule por main.o ? |
| 13:37.47 | kaatis | Mikho, add empty main.c which only says '#include "main.cc"' ? :) |
| 13:38.03 | Mikho | I wonder how to make anjuta use a custom compiler |
| 13:38.37 | Mikho | it seems it has a *very* limited setting windows |
| 13:39.27 | Mikho | I wouldn't want to resort to a bubblegum solution, I'd like to know why the heck is it trying to find main.c if it isn't mentioned anywhere |
| 13:40.06 | gomiam | You will _not_ disparage bubblegum! ;-) |
| 13:40.07 | kaatis | if the makefile contains rule to create .o from a .c file |
| 13:40.56 | gomiam | anyway, I think the problem is what kaatis says: there's a %.o: %.c rule or main.o: main.c rule messing around. |
| 13:42.18 | Mikho | but I can't find the rule |
| 13:42.48 | Mikho | and I don't know how to make it compile as c++ |
| 13:47.54 | Mikho | hmm... am I supposed to turn on some CFLAGs or something to make it c++? |
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| 14:00.26 | b0unc3 | Mikho: you need to change the compiler something like CC = gcc becomes CC = g++ |
| 14:05.31 | Mikho | I found a reference to gcc in Makefile.in, but it doesn't help to change the setting, as the file is automatically generated by anjuta |
| 14:06.11 | Mikho | but there's no mention of C/C++ choice in any of the Makefile.am or configure.ac files |
| 14:06.55 | Mikho | this is useless, maybe I should just forget about anjuta |
| 14:08.15 | Mikho | does anybody have good suggestions for C/C++ ide for developing software for 770? |
| 14:08.39 | Mikho | already tried eclipse+cde, and emacs won't do |
| 14:09.52 | lle2 | vim |
| 14:09.58 | derf | vim |
| 14:10.12 | gla55 | wouldn't just about any ide do |
| 14:10.20 | lle2 | no, only vim |
| 14:10.50 | derf | I'd be willing to accept emacs, but I would secretly be concerned for your soul. |
| 14:10.58 | Mikho | well, that's what I thought at first, but after wasting two full days of work with anjuta I've changed my mind |
| 14:11.15 | lle2 | kdevelop might be ok |
| 14:11.19 | Mikho | hmm |
| 14:11.24 | lle2 | I tried that a few years ago |
| 14:11.46 | lle2 | using it with sb0.9.x |
| 14:12.00 | Mikho | but I'm using gnome |
| 14:12.07 | lle2 | it's the only ide worth bothering with |
| 14:12.13 | JussiP | Eclipse CDT 4.0 will be released in a few weeks or so. |
| 14:12.34 | lle2 | does it support autoconfed projects properly? |
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| 14:13.16 | JussiP | I seem to recall so. Not sure though. |
| 14:13.25 | JussiP | Check their web pages. |
| 14:13.48 | lle2 | last time I looked at eclipse's C support it didn't know of anything else but its own pretty pathetic Makefile kludge |
| 14:15.36 | JussiP | It supports custom makefiles. But I'm not an expert on that, Eclipse is slow as molasses on every Linux platform I have ever tried it on. Plus I think it crashed parsing my code (KDevelop at least did). |
| 14:16.01 | lle2 | custom makefiles I can support equally well using bash |
| 14:16.26 | lle2 | I would expect an IDE to at least pretend that it manages the source files to some extent |
| 14:16.51 | JussiP | Bash does not do function name autocompletion, integrated debugging and all the other fancy stuff. |
| 14:17.09 | lle2 | for C code eclipse is just an enormous text editor |
| 14:17.31 | gomiam | ermm Mikho, did you create the new file through Anjuta's file wizard? |
| 14:17.36 | Mikho | yes |
| 14:17.43 | lle2 | integrated debugging is overrated |
| 14:17.44 | gomiam | and you specified C++ Source file? |
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| 14:18.30 | Mikho | I created a gtk+ project which was in the C section, but checked the enable c++ support box |
| 14:18.32 | gomiam | I'm reading the user manual, and it looks like you need to specify the file type when using the "New File" Wizard. |
| 14:18.48 | Mikho | specify the file type? |
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| 14:19.20 | gomiam | http://anjuta.sourceforge.net/documentations/subpage/documents/C/anjuta-manual/anjuta-manual.html |
| 14:19.32 | gomiam | "Creating a New File" |
| 14:19.41 | lle2 | people who insist on integrated debugging should use python or something like it |
| 14:19.43 | gomiam | on Chapter 3 |
| 14:20.06 | gomiam | lle2, what's the problem with integrated debugging? :-) |
| 14:20.46 | gomiam | not that I usually take advantage of it (printf/cout/cerr are godsends most of the time) |
| 14:21.05 | Mikho | well, I'm not sure what that would help as it'd be still looking for main.c |
| 14:21.15 | JussiP | Yes, because manuallyt typing breakpoints for mega long C++ function names is fun, fun, fun. Not to mention gdb's wonderful user friendliness. :) |
| 14:21.27 | lle2 | gomiam: nothing :) I just don't see the need, print* is enough |
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| 14:22.18 | gomiam | won't Anjuta give different file extensions depending on the specified File Type? |
| 14:22.22 | derf | Integrated debugging encourages people to fix symptoms, rather than actually think about the code and understand where the actual problem came from. |
| 14:23.49 | gomiam | derf: diagnostics encourage people to fix symptoms. Using integrated debugging or print* doesn't change the outcome. It's the developer's responsability to go beyond the symptoms. |
| 14:23.49 | melmoth | what _is_ integrated debugging ? |
| 14:23.51 | JussiP | Yes, and programming in any other language than assembler (or dip switches) encourages people to fix symptoms, rather than actually think about the code and understand where the actual problem came from. |
| 14:24.04 | lle2 | JussiP: just put bkpt instruction to right place and all is well |
| 14:24.14 | gomiam | melmoth: being able to step through the code while it executes. |
| 14:24.31 | melmoth | oh. like gdb ;) Can you do that with python ? |
| 14:24.40 | melmoth | this woudl be cool |
| 14:24.54 | JussiP | Yes you can. See Python's debugger class. |
| 14:25.04 | melmoth | sounds nice. |
| 14:25.11 | Mikho | well, I created a new main.cxx source file with the wizard and tried to build, but it still lusts and hungers for main.c |
| 14:25.29 | lle2 | sounds like a wizard |
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| 14:26.55 | derf | gomiam: There is a big difference between, "I will just watch every value change" and "I can only put so many printfs in, now where do I _think_ the program might be failing?" |
| 14:27.14 | Mikho | and what is a 'po' directory? |
| 14:27.24 | Mikho | impossible to google |
| 14:27.34 | melmoth | place where to put translation file (gettext stuff) i guess |
| 14:28.04 | lle2 | I think we can generalize: programming encourages people not to think. |
| 14:28.40 | gomiam | derf: is there? You can put enough printfs in to watch everything ;-) (I had to do that at times) |
| 14:28.49 | Mikho | it seems something in the 'po' directory refers to main.c |
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| 14:29.00 | Mikho | now what should I do with the po |
| 14:29.04 | gomiam | po... that sounds like localization |
| 14:29.57 | Mikho | how do I get rid of it? |
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| 14:30.13 | gomiam | no idea, I know very little about Anjuta. |
| 14:31.44 | derf | gomiam: Sure, you _could_, but that's a lot of typing. Somewhere during all that typing, you might decide it's easier on your fingers to exercise your brain. |
| 14:31.59 | gomiam | derf, that's what copy&paste is for ;-D |
| 14:32.24 | gomiam | anyway, in the end it all comes down to the developer having enough brain to check what really matters. |
| 14:32.36 | lle2 | that's not very often the case |
| 14:33.20 | gomiam | that's true, too. |
| 14:33.37 | derf | Just don't write software with bugs. Problem solved. |
| 14:33.41 | lle2 | better just run builds with make > /dev/null 2>&1 |
| 14:33.42 | gomiam | :-D |
| 14:33.49 | Mikho | ok... removed the main.c from POTFILES.in. Now where does it hallucinate the need for main.c from |
| 14:34.07 | gomiam | Mikho: may I suggest you grep -R main.c * |
| 14:34.23 | gomiam | from the project's home directory. |
| 14:34.53 | lle2 | I would suggest not using anjuta |
| 14:35.27 | gomiam | lle2: that's another option. It may make harder designing the interface, though. |
| 14:35.49 | lle2 | what's wrong with glade (or whatever it is these days)? |
| 14:37.01 | lle2 | if I remember that's what anjuta starts up anyway |
| 14:37.09 | gomiam | yes, it does. |
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| 14:38.06 | gomiam | anyway, since Mikho is using Anjuta, I find it better to try and help him learn use it and have everything at once. Your POV may differ. |
| 14:38.38 | lle2 | yeah, it does. I'll go away -> |
| 14:38.48 | gomiam | XD |
| 14:41.20 | Mikho | ok, there's a hidden .deps directory in the src folder, that has two files: callbacks.Po and main.Po |
| 14:41.36 | lool | Err did the List-id of maemo lists just change? |
| 14:41.36 | Mikho | main.Po lists main.c |
| 14:41.51 | gomiam | mmm... |
| 14:42.07 | gomiam | you created the project as a C project, right? |
| 14:42.15 | Mikho | now how can I make the po whatever to completely and utterly forget about main.c, callbacks.c and other auto generated stuff |
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| 14:42.31 | Mikho | yes |
| 14:42.44 | gomiam | you might need to either recreate it as a C++ project or find the Anjuta project file and tinker with it |
| 14:43.11 | gomiam | otherwise, Anjuta will stubbornly expect you to use C files mainly. |
| 14:43.38 | Mikho | I'd be very disappointed for not finding the setting that forces me to use main.c |
| 14:44.16 | Mikho | even though it has complex auto-generated makefile structure and all |
| 14:44.58 | dpb_ | lool: seems like it. seems to be @lists.maemo.org now instead of @maemo.org.. |
| 14:45.17 | gomiam | http://anjuta.sourceforge.net/documentations/subpage/documents/libanjuta/project-wizard-format.html |
| 14:45.38 | gomiam | there is the project file format, it seems |
| 14:46.28 | gomiam | you would probably need to change the text in <_category> |
| 14:46.33 | *** join/#maemo pna (n=pna@81-208-74-190.ip.fastwebnet.it) |
| 14:46.42 | gomiam | so it suddenly acts as a C++ project. |
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| 14:47.40 | Mikho | hmm |
| 14:47.53 | gomiam | this might create even more problems than it solves, though. |
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| 14:49.24 | gomiam | back to study for me, though. I'm sorry I can't help you any more right now. |
| 14:49.27 | gomiam | good luck |
| 14:49.29 | Mikho | ok, thanks |
| 14:49.36 | Mikho | anyway |
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| 15:01.07 | Mikho | hrmm.. it seems nothing updates the files in .deps directory |
| 15:01.29 | Mikho | the directory exists there for the sole purpose of hindering my job |
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| 15:18.32 | Mikho | well, I resolved the problem by changing main.c to main.cpp, but it left some unanswered questions |
| 15:19.00 | Mikho | if I add source files, what generates the appropriate .deps file? |
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| 15:39.46 | trevarthan | someone needs to write a new isearch applet that uses firefox search plugin syntax. |
| 15:40.02 | trevarthan | crying shame to duplicate all that work. |
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| 16:03.20 | konttori | Just a check, but is maemo.org supposed to be faster ? |
| 16:03.31 | konttori | Seems to be crawling to me. |
| 16:04.48 | lle2 | it's blazingly fast when accessed from within nokia.com |
| 16:04.50 | lle2 | ;) |
| 16:05.05 | konttori | Or from google cache ,) |
| 16:06.05 | konttori | Anyway, it seems like it's creating the pages on-fly. Any decent content management system knows how to cache page content for static pages. |
| 16:06.09 | konttori | Or semi static. |
| 16:06.28 | konttori | How midgard is so slow is just beyond me. |
| 16:07.27 | konttori | I actually develop a proprietary CM system as my paying job at the moment. |
| 16:09.22 | lle2 | maybe it tries to be somehow cute with ip addresses, and since all nokians probably go out through a couple of fixed proxies, we get fast response |
| 16:09.58 | lle2 | either that or the hosting provider is shaping traffic |
| 16:11.25 | lle2 | in any case I would consider changing career to an IBM solutions engineer if I'd be responsible for the technical implementation of maemo.org |
| 16:12.25 | konttori | Ahh.. seems faster now for me as well |
| 16:12.36 | konttori | Perhaps there was something just slowing everything down for me. |
| 16:12.57 | konttori | My apologies! |
| 16:13.17 | lle2 | you had thousands of bt downloads in the background? |
| 16:13.47 | konttori | nope. nothing. |
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| 18:33.45 | _Shurik_ | hola fellow tableteers |
| 18:34.21 | _Shurik_ | anyone was able to connect ad-hoc XP to n800? |
| 18:34.31 | _Shurik_ | via wifi |
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| 18:43.05 | b0unc3 | _Shurik_: never tried, but sure it works.. |
| 18:43.58 | _Shurik_ | I agree :) I just haven't spent much time figuring it out |
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| 18:51.43 | zyxulnaga | _Shurik_: I have |
| 18:52.21 | _Shurik_ | how did you make it broadcast itself as an access point so n800 can find it? |
| 18:52.36 | zyxulnaga | no special setting |
| 18:52.45 | zyxulnaga | just set it as an ad-hoc network |
| 18:52.50 | zyxulnaga | and specify some ssid you want |
| 18:53.02 | zyxulnaga | the ip is a bit tricky |
| 18:53.15 | zyxulnaga | windows xp in automatic mode attempts to see if the other end has a dhcp server running |
| 18:53.23 | _Shurik_ | aha |
| 18:53.24 | zyxulnaga | so I recommend you specify static ips |
| 18:53.35 | _Shurik_ | in tablet you mean? |
| 18:53.44 | zyxulnaga | in both tablet and windows xp |
| 18:53.52 | zyxulnaga | to avoid the dhcp server check by windows xp |
| 18:54.03 | zyxulnaga | once you associate it will attempt to see if the n800 has a dhcp server running |
| 18:54.09 | zyxulnaga | which it doesnt |
| 18:54.26 | zyxulnaga | so you either have to provide one or use static ips in both ends |
| 18:54.47 | _Shurik_ | hmm okay. How about connection via bluetooth? Would that be easier? |
| 18:55.00 | zyxulnaga | thats similar |
| 18:55.05 | _Shurik_ | there's only one place where I have no wireless connection and would like to share ethernet to tablet |
| 18:55.20 | zyxulnaga | I 've done it before with linux on one end though and n800 on the other |
| 18:55.24 | _Shurik_ | I'm trying to avoid static IP if possible |
| 18:55.33 | zyxulnaga | then install a dhcp server |
| 18:55.39 | zyxulnaga | I have written my own |
| 18:55.41 | zyxulnaga | in python |
| 18:55.42 | _Shurik_ | I might need to research this, since I really don't use BT for anything else on laptop |
| 18:55.46 | zyxulnaga | it just allocates an ip |
| 18:55.52 | _Shurik_ | hmm, interesting |
| 18:56.56 | zyxulnaga | I wish the wireless driver was open source |
| 18:57.19 | _Shurik_ | :) |
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| 19:04.01 | keesj | ins't bt plainfully slow? |
| 19:05.04 | gla55 | for moving large files yes.. |
| 19:05.09 | gla55 | for browsing the internet.. no |
| 19:05.24 | keesj | and streaming audio (what I do the moost) |
| 19:05.33 | keesj | ? |
| 19:05.57 | gla55 | what kind of audio? |
| 19:06.02 | gla55 | shoutcasts etc.. just fine |
| 19:06.40 | zyxulnaga | it wasnt |
| 19:06.51 | keesj | mp3 |
| 19:07.05 | zyxulnaga | I was transfering files accross the bt tunnel through sftp |
| 19:07.08 | zyxulnaga | at a decent speed |
| 19:07.28 | keesj | alright. |
| 19:07.58 | keesj | sending even small videos taken on my phone already takes ages |
| 19:08.08 | keesj | from phone to n800 |
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| 19:30.06 | *** join/#maemo xando (n=xando@AAnnecy-157-1-45-26.w86-219.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 19:30.14 | xando | hi |
| 19:30.25 | _Shurik_ | ðùäô |
| 19:30.27 | _Shurik_ | hola |
| 19:30.29 | _Shurik_ | sorry |
| 19:30.54 | xando | i want unlock my nokia can u help me ??? ;-) |
| 19:31.32 | xando | 3310 |
| 19:31.55 | _Shurik_ | where did you lock your nokia? |
| 19:32.23 | _Shurik_ | most of the drawers can be easily pryed open with little force |
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| 19:38.21 | gla55 | beats me what unlocking 3310 and maemo have to do with each other |
| 19:38.30 | *** join/#maemo k-s[WORK] (n=gustavo@200.184.118.132) |
| 19:39.26 | gla55 | it's so old anyways that you could unlock it with little googling.. |
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| 19:48.41 | konttori | ukmp 1.2 released today. https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/1621/UKMP-1.2.deb |
| 19:48.52 | konttori | I'll make a blog entry soon. |
| 19:49.10 | konttori | 1.2 version includes Party (or queue) mode. Also supports cover.jpg files in mp3 folders. Will skip any folders titled: Maps. This improves living besides maemo mapper. Accidental clicks in cover view have been handled a bit better. |
| 19:50.43 | *** join/#maemo xan (n=xan@a88-112-51-91.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
| 19:51.06 | konttori | Party mode is way cool and easy way to make a playlist for the next hour ... four hours... or however long. |
| 20:01.27 | _Shurik_ | does it have an EQ? |
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| 20:10.45 | *** join/#maemo ab (n=ab@ppp83-237-110-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 20:13.37 | konttori | Nope |
| 20:14.04 | konttori | Ahh.. Blog is now online. Have a look at the new party mode (includes screenshots) |
| 20:14.05 | konttori | http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/2007/06/ukmp-12.html |
| 20:14.14 | _Shurik_ | Most of the times it's not required, but somtimes I'd like to have one so bad. |
| 20:14.28 | konttori | I hear you. I know the feeling. |
| 20:15.09 | konttori | But, alas, it's not on my roadmap for a long time. Sorry to disappoint you, there are just too many more important features to be made. |
| 20:15.12 | _Shurik_ | in the car it's easier, you can do some equalizing via stereo |
| 20:15.17 | _Shurik_ | but in headphones... |
| 20:15.18 | konttori | true |
| 20:15.42 | konttori | yeah. I hope Nokia will include EQ in the future firmware. |
| 20:15.44 | _Shurik_ | well that's fine, I will check your new release tonight |
| 20:15.55 | konttori | Cool. Have you used 1.1? |
| 20:17.43 | _Shurik_ | not yet, I just got n800 last week. Haven't settled in yet! |
| 20:18.13 | *** join/#maemo VRe (n=vre@vre.iki.fi) |
| 20:21.30 | konttori | Here is a short introduction video on the ukmp 1.0: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCIANUJ-ctg |
| 20:23.42 | *** join/#maemo mk8 (n=kvirc@151.16.202.156) |
| 20:23.44 | mk8 | Hi to all |
| 20:27.42 | konttori | hi! |
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| 20:32.28 | konttori | The Nokia 8600 Luna uses a single micro-USB port for a streamlined design free of extraneous indentations; it allows owners to streamline common activities - like charging, audio and data connectivity - into a single connection. Quad-band GSM support also allows owners to easily stay connected while they are on the road, while the large, bright display is perfect for sharing images captured with the 2 megapixel camera. |
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| 20:32.45 | konttori | I hope N900 will also support charging from USB |
| 20:33.55 | gla55 | hmm |
| 20:33.56 | gla55 | hopefully |
| 20:34.08 | _Shurik_ | what N900?? :) I just got N800 |
| 20:34.21 | edistar | heey, does anyone know if there is a good math program that has some funktions of a graphical calculator like for example the TI voyage 200? |
| 20:35.04 | _Shurik_ | hmm, that's an interesting concept |
| 20:35.07 | _Shurik_ | TI emulator |
| 20:35.07 | konttori | It's a speculative name for the next internettablet ;) |
| 20:35.19 | konttori | there was ti emu before. |
| 20:35.31 | _Shurik_ | well, I'd think they would either drop the "N" and call it 900 or use some other letter, preferably cyrillics |
| 20:35.36 | _Shurik_ | like ß900 |
| 20:35.38 | konttori | I don't know if it works on the latest firmware |
| 20:35.52 | Mikho | does anybody know how could I get to use makedepend inside scratchbox? |
| 20:35.56 | edistar | ti emu emulates? |
| 20:35.58 | konttori | Indeed. Or just go for a plaing chinese name |
| 20:36.08 | Mikho | I should install xutils-dev package, but where is it? |
| 20:36.11 | edistar | is it fast? |
| 20:36.18 | _Shurik_ | no, russians were involved in the first 2 designes |
| 20:37.05 | lle2 | chinese have also been involved in the first two |
| 20:37.12 | lle2 | so that's kinda moot point |
| 20:37.38 | lle2 | as well as around 30+ other different nationalities |
| 20:38.19 | _Shurik_ | fine... |
| 20:38.21 | _Shurik_ | :) |
| 20:39.12 | lle2 | I'm convinced there are a few extra terrestrials as well |
| 20:39.35 | _Shurik_ | but their codenames were Sputnik and Soyuz |
| 20:39.45 | _Shurik_ | so looks like us, Russians, had an upper hand there :-D |
| 20:40.09 | lle2 | nope, those were picked by very, very finnish people living in a cold, dark city called Oulu |
| 20:40.45 | lle2 | and you've got only one of them right |
| 20:40.46 | _Shurik_ | and as I was almost tasting a victory.. |
| 20:41.15 | _Shurik_ | that's what maemo.org says thoug |
| 20:41.18 | _Shurik_ | Device Codenames |
| 20:41.18 | _Shurik_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:41.18 | _Shurik_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:41.18 | _Shurik_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:41.25 | lle2 | haha |
| 20:41.52 | lle2 | that's incorrect |
| 20:42.52 | lle2 | sputnik part is right |
| 20:43.16 | _Shurik_ | well, now I have 3 favorite things that came from Finland: Finland vodka, Tupu Tapu and N800 |
| 20:43.29 | _Shurik_ | what was the 770? Gagarin? |
| 20:43.39 | lle2 | 770 = sputnik |
| 20:43.45 | lle2 | n800 = gagarin |
| 20:43.49 | _Shurik_ | ah, okay |
| 20:43.56 | _Shurik_ | either way |
| 20:44.06 | _Shurik_ | can't wait for N900 "Stalin" |
| 20:44.11 | lle2 | heh ;) |
| 20:44.30 | _Shurik_ | with HD mind reader |
| 20:44.31 | Mikho | now is it possible to actually browse the maemo scratchbox repositories? |
| 20:45.13 | lle2 | maemo scratchbox repos? |
| 20:45.17 | Mikho | I need to find the correct package to install to make makedepend work |
| 20:45.35 | Mikho | inside scratchbox |
| 20:45.43 | lle2 | hmm, can't you just build it using host-gcc inside sbox? |
| 20:46.31 | lle2 | or better yet use sb2 :) |
| 20:46.39 | Mikho | sb2? |
| 20:46.58 | _Shurik_ | scratch box 2? |
| 20:47.06 | lle2 | http://freedesktop.org/Software/sbox2 |
| 20:47.27 | Mikho | in normal linux environment, if I'm missing a tool, it's easy to just enter it in the package manager search and just install packgages |
| 20:47.49 | Mikho | inside scratchbox even the tab-completion in apt-get install doesn't work |
| 20:47.55 | lle2 | with sb2 that's all you need to do, it uses your host's binaries |
| 20:48.43 | Mikho | this sb2... does it work? |
| 20:48.46 | lle2 | it may have some rough edges though, but they only help build character |
| 20:49.03 | lle2 | I've used it to build some stuff |
| 20:49.20 | lle2 | kdrive xserver doesn't build, some crap with libtool |
| 20:49.32 | Mikho | I've already spent quite much time to make the plain scratchbox work |
| 20:49.32 | lle2 | but quite a few things seem to build |
| 20:50.07 | lle2 | sb2 is simple to install, just take a look at the readme, link is on the fdo page |
| 20:50.28 | Mikho | hm |
| 20:50.38 | lle2 | it will hopefully make it to debian/unstable soon |
| 20:51.07 | lle2 | so people can just apt-get install scratchbox2 |
| 20:51.35 | Mikho | but isn't scratchbox supposed to be an independent environment than my host? |
| 20:51.56 | lle2 | yeah, sb1 is that way, sb2 is different |
| 20:52.05 | lle2 | way smaller |
| 20:52.29 | lle2 | about 1/2000th of sb1's size |
| 20:52.32 | edistar | can't find tiemu for the 770.. |
| 20:52.43 | edistar | can someone help? |
| 20:53.03 | Mikho | so if I install this sb2, I could live happily with my 770 forever? |
| 20:53.11 | lle2 | no idea :) |
| 20:53.18 | lle2 | it's work in progress |
| 20:53.25 | lle2 | I'll gladly help if you hit issues |
| 20:53.57 | _Shurik_ | I think its time for n800 |
| 20:54.01 | lle2 | I personally refuse to touch sb1 |
| 20:54.51 | lle2 | but obviously it is the official maemo build environment, for now |
| 20:55.55 | Mikho | I'm just trying to install the hello_world application from the tutorial to my 770. For that, I need to make a debian package out of it. For that, I need to create a makefile with correctly set dependencies. And for that, I need makedepend, and preferably without having to write paths like /scratchbox/users/mipoloja/targets/ARMEL etc into the makefile |
| 20:56.29 | lle2 | can't you use gcc -E -M or some such to generate the dependencies? |
| 20:56.30 | Mikho | maybe I should try sb2 next |
| 20:56.39 | Mikho | no idea, I'm a newbie |
| 20:57.01 | lle2 | I think you can |
| 20:57.04 | Mikho | tried to follow a makefile tutorial |
| 20:57.07 | lle2 | oh |
| 20:57.23 | lle2 | try to avoid makedepend |
| 20:57.28 | Mikho | so what does -E -M do? |
| 20:57.36 | lle2 | spits out the same stuff |
| 20:57.55 | Mikho | it's a bit difficult to man gcc, as it has zillions of options |
| 20:58.15 | edistar | true |
| 20:58.54 | lle2 | well, try man gcc, /-M, hit 'n' a couple of times |
| 20:58.57 | Mikho | hmm if this -E -M works I'd be delighted |
| 21:00.10 | suihkulokki | err, since when does making a debian package need a makefile with correctly set dependencies |
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| 21:01.28 | lle2 | suihkulokki: maybe that started today? trends come and go so fast these days |
| 21:02.36 | Mikho | well, I started out following the debian maintenance tutorial and it happily assumed there's a makefile in the program root, and dh_make seemed to complain about it so I assumed I need a makefile |
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| 21:03.38 | lle2 | doesn't the tutorial contain a sample makefile or something? |
| 21:03.52 | Mikho | in addition, there doesn't seem to be a reasonable choice of IDE that would manage makefiles for me |
| 21:04.26 | lle2 | aha, now we can redo the IDE discussion from earlier |
| 21:04.38 | Mikho | yes |
| 21:04.45 | Mikho | anjuta just seems to complicate things |
| 21:05.46 | zuh | IDE:s usually do ;) |
| 21:05.50 | Mikho | I'm beginning to understand why people say things like vi/vim/emacs when I ask for IDE recommendations |
| 21:07.24 | suihkulokki | just download some existing application sources and build it |
| 21:07.40 | Mikho | hey, "g++ -E -M `pkg-config hildon-libs --cflags` main.cpp" seems to work! |
| 21:07.52 | Mikho | woo-hoo |
| 21:08.23 | lle2 | IDE would be ok if nokia preconfigured it and created wizards and shit to make the whole thing painless, but since nokia doesn't do that, IDEs suck |
| 21:11.08 | konttori | I still think the best way would be a perfectly made vmware image. (but that's just me) |
| 21:11.47 | edistar | I'd like that! |
| 21:11.53 | edistar | or qemu.. |
| 21:14.18 | gla55 | lle2: carbide.c++ is starting to be okayish for symbian dev..(well.. thats relative of course, since symbian tools are so crap) |
| 21:14.43 | Mikho | nice! I proceeded into linker errors when running make |
| 21:16.30 | Mikho | lle2: thanks! your tip was very helpful |
| 21:16.52 | Mikho | I actually managed to make my hello world by using custom Makefile |
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| 21:18.02 | lle2 | Mikho: np :) |
| 21:18.31 | Mikho | now for some fine tuning... |
| 21:19.04 | Mikho | is there a convention for placing compiled source (=object) files? |
| 21:19.49 | Mikho | src, bin or obj maybe? |
| 21:20.52 | lle2 | well, I typically leave them in the same dir as sources |
| 21:21.07 | derf | Everyone does. |
| 21:21.20 | Mikho | hmm, my makefile seems to throw them in the root, even though the sources are in src |
| 21:21.24 | derf | And tool support for putting them anywhere else is "poor", so you might as well get used to it. |
| 21:21.56 | Mikho | the rule is: |
| 21:22.02 | Mikho | %.o: %.cpp |
| 21:22.22 | Mikho | (tab) $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c $< |
| 21:23.12 | Mikho | VPATH variable is set to src |
| 21:23.23 | lle2 | get rid of the VPATH |
| 21:23.38 | Mikho | it'd still find the source file? |
| 21:23.48 | lle2 | should |
| 21:24.11 | lle2 | you should only need it if you want to support putting obj files into a separate dir tree |
| 21:25.22 | Mikho | ok |
| 21:29.41 | Mikho | now this is weird, it thinks main.o is compiled and tries to link even though it isn't ready |
| 21:36.20 | Mikho | it seems the generated dependency list somehow messes up the search for the real object file |
| 21:37.26 | Mikho | how can I combine the dependencies and the build instructions for main.o? |
| 21:38.29 | Mikho | actually, even if I remove the "include .depends", it can't find the rule to make object files |
| 21:38.54 | lle2 | I would do something like: |
| 21:38.56 | lle2 | objects = main.o |
| 21:39.11 | Mikho | why doesn't it suddencly accept %.o : %.cpp ? |
| 21:39.43 | lle2 | this is pointless |
| 21:39.52 | lle2 | there are millions of makefiles out there |
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| 21:40.47 | Mikho | oh, it says it can't find the rule even if it just can't find the source file |
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| 22:08.13 | Knowledge | is gnome an option for the n800 yet? |
| 22:08.39 | nomis | should it be? |
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| 22:16.02 | konttori | Have you seen the archos 704? 800x480 7" screen. Opera 9. |
| 22:16.04 | konttori | http://www.archos.com/products/video/archos_704wifi/index.html?country=global&lang=en |
| 22:28.15 | Knowledge | nomis:....hmm, not really. |
| 22:31.13 | nomis | Knowledge: if you're looking for alternatives to the hildon desktop you might want to have a look at GPE. |
| 22:31.51 | Knowledge | nomis: I'm sorry if I sound ignorant, but is GPE Covered in the forums? |
| 22:32.00 | nomis | what forums? |
| 22:32.24 | Knowledge | iTt |
| 22:32.44 | nomis | Knowledge: no idea, I don't care about that forum. |
| 22:32.46 | nomis | Knowledge: http://gpe.linuxtogo.org/ |
| 22:34.25 | Knowledge | nomis: gotcha |
| 22:34.29 | Knowledge | thank you for the info |
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