| 04:01:47 | JamieBecker | hi |
| 04:02:17 | JamieBecker | i'm completing my backup now!! |
| 04:02:24 | perlan | you are doomed! |
| 04:02:28 | perlan | ;-) |
| 04:02:29 | JamieBecker | :-) |
| 04:02:36 | JamieBecker | why so |
| 04:03:09 | JamieBecker | hey can i run apache/php/mysql on it when i'm done if i get intimate with it |
| 04:03:20 | perlan | if you have the disk |
| 04:04:09 | JamieBecker | cool |
| 04:04:14 | JamieBecker | i'm going to get one |
| 04:04:21 | JamieBecker | even if it's an ibm part |
| 04:04:30 | perlan | too bad disk over USB doesn't work |
| 04:04:44 | JamieBecker | yeah that must take a while!!! |
| 04:04:54 | perlan | but it's cheaper |
| 04:05:21 | JamieBecker | usb sync doesn't work? i read somewhere you could patch your kernel (on desktop) to support it |
| 04:05:26 | JamieBecker | how do you mean cheaper |
| 04:05:38 | JamieBecker | you mean the cradle is cheaper/ |
| 04:05:51 | perlan | the disk, easy to get 30G for $180 |
| 04:06:14 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: usb sync works, but the ipaq can only be a usb slave. USB-connected disks are also slaves. |
| 04:06:26 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: your pc is the master |
| 04:06:28 | JamieBecker | wow! i thought it was just 340MB |
| 04:06:42 | JamieBecker | oh i see that's a bummer |
| 04:06:52 | JamieBecker | very astute; my pc IS the master |
| 04:07:03 | pkomarek | =-) |
| 04:07:44 | JamieBecker | so you can only have one slave at a time? what kind of world is this? |
| 04:07:48 | perlan | the difference between slave and master is probably in the cable.... |
| 04:07:57 | JamieBecker | weird |
| 04:08:10 | JamieBecker | so what if you modified it? |
| 04:08:58 | perlan | that's what I was thinking, sounds like the same crap as "needing a hub" to hook 2 ethernet cards together until someone just made a xover cable |
| 04:09:41 | pkomarek | I don't think it's just the cable. |
| 04:09:55 | perlan | then you should be able to rewrite the driver |
| 04:10:10 | JamieBecker | i don't think so either -- sounds like the usb kernel module is significantly different than tty in many ways. |
| 04:10:17 | pkomarek | I think it is an electrical issue. |
| 04:10:25 | JamieBecker | shocking, isn't it |
| 04:10:44 | perlan | electrical == wiring, at least to me... |
| 04:13:19 | JamieBecker | no, not electrical or wiring; just a limitation of the design of the usb kernel module, i'd bet... |
| 04:13:49 | JamieBecker | ok here goes! starting the install! woohoo! |
| 04:14:15 | bhima | USB host vs. device is _far_ different than a cable. |
| 04:14:18 | perlan | ah, then it needs a redesign from a poor programmer |
| 04:14:33 | bhima | The host is very much in control of all transactions. |
| 04:14:34 | perlan | oh, what's the difference |
| 04:14:45 | perlan | sounds like a scsi initiator then |
| 04:14:46 | bhima | pretty much the host runs the show. |
| 04:14:56 | bhima | you can't have devices communicating with each other. |
| 04:15:01 | bhima | (you can on SCSI) |
| 04:15:37 | perlan | you blinding issue commands and hope they are obeyed? |
| 04:15:42 | bhima | now. what I do not know is whether it's reaonable to take hardware that is a device and install a host _driver_ on it. that would very much depend on how the thing was designed. Speed may be an issue. |
| 04:15:49 | bhima | ie: USB is dual speed. |
| 04:15:59 | bhima | the host slows down if the device wants it to. |
| 04:16:34 | perlan | I suppose I'll need to learn a bit about USB now.... |
| 04:16:46 | bhima | Most USB devices don't have the microcontroller performance needed to actually be hosts, I believe. |
| 04:17:01 | bhima | USB is designed with the theory of cheap as fuck devices, complex drivers. |
| 04:17:48 | bhima | at the physical layer, AFAIK there is no difference between host and device. |
| 04:18:09 | bhima | ie: four pins. two power, two differential bidirectional signalling. |
| 04:18:17 | perlan | ok |
| 04:18:39 | bhima | but since your CPU doesn't busy-wait watching those pins, there is some hardware on the other side of the physical layer. |
| 04:18:59 | bhima | you need to find out what stuff is sitting there and what you can do with it. |
| 04:19:24 | bhima | the more complex it is, the less likely you are to succeed :/ |
| 04:19:28 | perlan | heheh |
| 04:20:05 | perlan | you mean the more integrated, the fewer options --- I remember that from my scsi driver days (via TTL) |
| 04:20:11 | bhima | right. |
| 04:20:29 | bhima | basically, you could in theory implement USB via two or three I/O pins. |
| 04:20:35 | bhima | but it would suck. |
| 04:20:44 | dneuer | what would suck? |
| 04:21:24 | bhima | dn: doing USB by just using two or thre arbitrary IO pins on a CPU. |
| 04:21:44 | JamieBecker | bootloader is happy!! |
| 04:21:57 | perlan | JB: that's the easy part |
| 04:22:03 | dneuer | understands everything |
| 04:22:14 | perlan | are you using Minicom or Hyperterm ? |
| 04:22:27 | JamieBecker | teraterm w/ ssh |
| 04:22:34 | bhima | dn: basically, the physical layer for USB host vs. device is, I'm pretty sure, identical. |
| 04:22:35 | perlan | ok |
| 04:22:42 | dneuer | anyone have any recommendations for a mobo for Athlon? |
| 04:22:44 | bhima | jamie: great. that actually works, in my experience. |
| 04:22:46 | JamieBecker | is that cool then |
| 04:22:48 | JamieBecker | ;-) |
| 04:22:50 | JamieBecker | ok |
| 04:23:02 | JamieBecker | anything athlon rocks ;-) |
| 04:23:36 | JamieBecker | sharkyextreme.com, anandtech.com, tomshardware.com, and there's actually a amd reviews site out there too (can't remember url) |
| 04:24:12 | pkomarek | among other things, the host is required to have an "integrated root hub" (I'm reading from the spec) -- I assume our iPAQ's don't have this |
| 04:25:02 | bhima | question: what USB hardware do people want to plug in? |
| 04:25:06 | pkomarek | dneuer: I like my MSI K7T turbo |
| 04:25:10 | bhima | I think PCMCIA versions would be better most of the time... |
| 04:25:36 | pkomarek | dneuer: and I know some satisfied customers for the Asus A7V. These are both based on the VIA KT133A chipset. |
| 04:25:44 | bhima | pkom: I have no idea what that phrase is supposed to mean. it probably has to do with power and logical stuff and speed adjustment. |
| 04:25:48 | dneuer | pkomarek: what bus speed? |
| 04:26:10 | bhima | the ipaq's USB may be single speed only, prolly 11Mbps. |
| 04:26:15 | pkomarek | These both support 133 (266) FSB for both the cpu and the memory. |
| 04:26:28 | bhima | if it can't switch down to low speed, we are going to be very limited in terms of device support. |
| 04:26:32 | pkomarek | dneuer: er, I need to be careful... |
| 04:26:48 | dneuer | pkomarek: but not 200 Mhz ev6? |
| 04:26:53 | pkomarek | dneuer: Damn, too many dual edge clocked devices.... wait one... |
| 04:27:15 | JamieBecker | 200mhz ev6 hehehe |
| 04:27:32 | pkomarek | dneuer: okay, IIRC the issues are: 100 or 133 for cpu interface, 100 or 133 or 200 for memory. |
| 04:27:46 | JamieBecker | brb |
| 04:27:50 | pkomarek | dneuer: the via kt133 chipset does 100 for the cpu, 133 for the memory. |
| 04:27:57 | pkomarek | dneuer: the kt133a does 133 for both. |
| 04:28:14 | dneuer | pkomarek: so if you have DDR ram, that's effectively 266? |
| 04:28:54 | dneuer | will be buying Atlon, mobo, and RAM tommorrow |
| 04:28:58 | pkomarek | dneuer: I think I need to be careful answering this. heck, I knew all about it a couple months ago. Maybe you should just buy an ev67 Alpha 21264a? |
| 04:29:04 | pkomarek | dneuer: ;-) |
| 04:29:07 | dneuer | is sick of long compile cycles |
| 04:29:53 | dneuer | pkomarek: I want to change as little of my hardware as possible, and none of my software (RedHat 7.1 x86 Linux) |
| 04:30:18 | pkomarek | dneuer: Microway is charging about $13,500 for a dual 21264 ev6 with 4GB ram, we're running redhat on ours at school. |
| 04:30:31 | pkomarek | dneuer: It's a good price, really! |
| 04:30:42 | dneuer | would be a dead man when wife got visa bill |
| 04:31:00 | dneuer | will stick with Athlon, thank you |
| 04:31:44 | dneuer | bhima, pkomarek: so, you guys were talking about iPAQ USB? |
| 04:31:56 | dneuer | and that it has no host controller? |
| 04:32:13 | perlan | yup |
| 04:32:51 | bhima | dn: yeah. just wondering whether you can get low enough level access to its USB stuff to do that in software. |
| 04:32:55 | dneuer | and the conclusion was <drumroll please> .... it has no host controller |
| 04:34:05 | dneuer | well, you have access to the USB related registers on the SA1110 itself, but I don't know how feasible emulating a host controller in software is. |
| 04:34:40 | dneuer | any kernel maintainers would likely never accept a kernel patch to do it, so it would have to be in userland |
| 04:34:44 | perlan | depends on the cable speed and any local buffering |
| 04:35:12 | perlan | just a custom kernel patch |
| 04:36:01 | bhima | mmm. I wouldn't avoid a piece of useful code for political reasons. |
| 04:36:10 | bhima | I need to sleep. |
| 04:36:12 | perlan | :-) |
| 04:36:14 | bhima | g'night all. |
| 04:36:17 | dneuer | ever maintained a kernel patch? |
| 04:36:23 | dneuer | big pain in butt |
| 04:36:42 | perlan | I knew of lots of unmaintained patches floating around |
| 04:36:44 | pkomarek | dneuer: the VIA KT133A chipset does sdr only. I've made sure now. |
| 04:36:46 | bhima | dn: I upgrade my kernels infrequently. |
| 04:37:35 | bhima | then again, I tend to use *BSD, and I think there's less need to upgrade as frequently, specially on a machine that doesn't get thrashed. |
| 04:37:36 | bhima | *GONE* |
| 04:38:53 | pkomarek | dneuer: it looks like you want something based on the AMD 760 chipset, or else the VIA KT266 chipset for a ddr solution -- but the VIA KT266 doesn't look so good yet. |
| 04:39:46 | dneuer | seems like KT133A is buggy (according to anandtech) |
| 04:39:52 | pkomarek | dneuer: the KT266 seems to have some memory limitations. |
| 04:40:24 | pkomarek | dneuer: well, I've had some weirdnesses. It puts my Netgear FA311TX nic to sleep whenever the bios blanks the screen. I've got a small patch for this. |
| 04:41:07 | pkomarek | dneuer: and some of the irq stuff sometimes shows up wrong in my syslogs -- lspci agrees with my bios, but I get "irq conflict" messages with devices on the wrong interrupt lines |
| 04:41:19 | dneuer | pkomarek: you have a KT133A-based board? |
| 04:41:41 | pkomarek | dneuer: yeah, Microstar MS-6330, aka MSI K7T turbo |
| 04:42:09 | pkomarek | dneuer: er, MSI K7T Turbo Raid, in fact. ;-) Got one of those promise ide raid chips. |
| 04:42:32 | dneuer | I have no PC-133 RAM to salvage |
| 04:43:01 | pkomarek | dneuer: Aha. You might want to consider the ddr boards then, since prices aren't that much different. But then, neither is performance... |
| 04:43:37 | pkomarek | dneuer: One nice thing about the kt133a boards is that you can run 100 or 133 for both cpu and memory -- in all combinations except 133 cpu and 100 memory. |
| 04:43:42 | dneuer | pkomarek: well, if performance & price is roughly equal, and stability is better with the AMD chipset boards, I'll take the latter |
| 04:44:05 | pkomarek | dneuer: I want to make sure you didn't get the kt266 and kt133a mixed up... |
| 04:44:20 | dneuer | pkomarek: tnx |
| 04:44:50 | pkomarek | dneuer: The AMD 760 is DDR, like the KT266. The KT133a is the main show in town for SDR, AFAIK. |
| 04:45:16 | JamieBecker | ok! need help now! ;-) |
| 04:45:22 | pkomarek | dneuer: one thing I like about the MSI boards is that they seem to be really stable. |
| 04:45:26 | pkomarek | What's up? |
| 04:46:02 | JamieBecker | ok, i have errors trying to load the kernel |
| 04:46:08 | JamieBecker | hold on i'll get them |
| 04:46:27 | JamieBecker | ok, on http://familiar.handhelds.org/familiar/releases/latest/install/H3600/install.html |
| 04:46:29 | JamieBecker | it says |
| 04:46:30 | pkomarek | dneuer: sure I can't talk you into an alpha? How about a nice IBM p640? Rackmount with up to 4 IBM POWER 4 (rs-IV, I believe) cpus? up to 16GB? |
| 04:46:44 | JamieBecker | Using your terminal emulator, perform an xmodem upload of "bootldr-0000-2.14.5-bigkernel-mono". |
| 04:47:01 | pkomarek | okay, I'm with you. |
| 04:47:19 | JamieBecker | what is this file? i already installed a bootloader. the link leads to nothing |
| 04:47:30 | pkomarek | dneuer: and with the p-series from IBM, they have IR on the front so you can admin with a handheld. |
| 04:47:37 | JamieBecker | i have on my screen a cute Tux and it says CRL/OHH.. |
| 04:47:46 | JamieBecker | ARM Bootloader |
| 04:47:59 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: what steps have you done so far? |
| 04:48:44 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: and are you installing familiar V0.4, or something else? |
| 04:48:46 | JamieBecker | I installed the bootloader using steps on ftp://ftp.handhelds.org/pub/linux/dists/compaq/ipaq/stable/install.html and using file bootldr-0000-2.14.8 and osloader-1.3.0.exe |
| 04:48:58 | JamieBecker | yes familiar 0.4 if possible. don't have microdrive yet |
| 04:49:01 | JamieBecker | $$ |
| 04:49:03 | JamieBecker | ;-) |
| 04:49:38 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: okay, you want to look at another document for the next steps. wait one... |
| 04:49:48 | JamieBecker | ok i have the next one... |
| 04:49:54 | JamieBecker | http://familiar.handhelds.org/familiar/releases/latest/install/H3600/install.html |
| 04:50:00 | JamieBecker | but that's the problem |
| 04:50:34 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: you say there's a broken link? The one for the kernel or root images? |
| 04:50:46 | JamieBecker | hold |
| 04:51:01 | JamieBecker | yes, the line that says : |
| 04:51:05 | JamieBecker | Using your terminal emulator, perform an xmodem upload of "bootldr-0000-2.14.5-bigkernel-mono". |
| 04:51:17 | JamieBecker | points to top of page, and there's no file called that. |
| 04:52:11 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: that looks old, you want the kernel and root images from the top. |
| 04:52:40 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: doh, I think actually.... hold on.... |
| 04:52:41 | JamieBecker | ok, i tried the kernel up top a little while ago and got a kernel magic error |
| 04:53:16 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: You've already installed the bootloader, and have a boot prompt across a serial link to the ipaq? |
| 04:53:16 | JamieBecker | so i went back to the bootloader (just in case) and figured i'd ask ;-) |
| 04:53:20 | JamieBecker | yes |
| 04:53:22 | JamieBecker | correct |
| 04:53:53 | JamieBecker | but linux isn't installed -- pressing q key produces no kernel image |
| 04:54:06 | JamieBecker | sorry "Unrecognized kernel image" |
| 04:54:21 | perlan | di you 'load kernel' ? |
| 04:54:28 | JamieBecker | hold on i'll try it |
| 04:54:31 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: I'm sorry, I was leading you astray. You want http://familiar.handhelds.org/familiar/releases/v0.4/install/H3600/bootldr-0000-2.14.5-bigkernel-mono |
| 04:54:46 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: after that comes the kernel and root images. |
| 04:54:47 | JamieBecker | load kernel brings up a list of commands it looks like |
| 04:54:56 | JamieBecker | ok hold on i'll try it thanks!! |
| 04:55:28 | perlan | you need to reset after installing bootldr |
| 04:55:46 | JamieBecker | so its coming up as saving as 2.14.txt (friggin IE), not 2.14.5-bigkernel-mono |
| 04:55:56 | JamieBecker | i had a 2.18 bootloader, is that ok too? |
| 04:56:07 | JamieBecker | yep restarted after installing the bootldr 2.18 |
| 04:56:10 | perlan | check the md5sum after download |
| 04:56:14 | JamieBecker | ok i'll upload the file too |
| 04:56:18 | JamieBecker | can't from windows, eh? |
| 04:56:30 | perlan | there is a windows md5 someplace |
| 04:57:21 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: if you haven't already done the load bootldr stuff, stop for a second |
| 04:57:31 | JamieBecker | i have already |
| 04:57:42 | JamieBecker | i did the load bootldr stuff to get it there... |
| 04:58:02 | JamieBecker | but i haven't done anything since getting the bootloader installed and booted |
| 04:58:13 | JamieBecker | the ipaq has a cool looking ARM Bootldr screen on it now |
| 04:58:43 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: I'm rereading the docs as fast as I can -- it seems that the familiar instructions refer to v.2.14.5, but the bootloader instructions refer to v.2.14.8. If you've got 2.14.8 already isntalled, it doesn't make sense to switch back to 2.14.5 |
| 04:58:48 | perlan | then it's kernel and root time |
| 04:59:16 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: In particular, the line "If you ahve bootldr v2.14.5 or a later version installe,d you can skip this step" |
| 04:59:21 | JamieBecker | ok cool! |
| 04:59:29 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: I'm out for a bit, typing break. |
| 04:59:31 | JamieBecker | oh doh! sorry! |
| 04:59:37 | JamieBecker | ok thanks! |
| 05:05:58 | JamieBecker | hmm |
| 05:09:10 | pkomarek | I'm back |
| 05:14:58 | JamieBecker | dis is sweet |
| 05:15:12 | perlan | notes that it's not working yet |
| 05:15:16 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: You might want this: |
| 05:15:19 | JamieBecker | anybody want to buy an ibm workpad and palm vx ;-) |
| 05:15:23 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/How%20do%20I%20setup%20USB%20networking |
| 05:15:51 | JamieBecker | perfect thanks!!! |
| 05:16:06 | JamieBecker | what's a "supported USB hub in your PC" |
| 05:16:20 | JamieBecker | I assume that's a root hub and that I have that already? |
| 05:16:56 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: I've you can do USB with your PC, then you've got a root hub as part of your usb controller -- this is one of the things I expect is missing on the ipaq, which means it can't be a host. |
| 05:17:17 | JamieBecker | ahh, makes perfect sense |
| 05:17:55 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: 'course, I don't really know what a root hub is or does electrically...I didn't get to read much of the USB spec |
| 05:18:15 | JamieBecker | 90% done ;-) |
| 05:21:00 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: which root image are you using, the 'complete' one or the basic one? |
| 05:21:15 | JamieBecker | the basic one |
| 05:21:29 | JamieBecker | done |
| 05:21:49 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: that's what I did first. The next time I did the complete one. Overall, I think I'd suggest the complete one for convenience. |
| 05:22:09 | JamieBecker | oh maybe i should redo it? |
| 05:22:34 | perlan | first see that it works |
| 05:22:47 | JamieBecker | it's up ;-) running ipkg now |
| 05:23:03 | JamieBecker | sweet!! |
| 05:23:25 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: no, don't bother. It's part of the fun! |
| 05:23:49 | JamieBecker | can't get to familiar.handhelds.org :-( |
| 05:24:04 | JamieBecker | all part of the fun ;-) eh |
| 05:24:15 | JamieBecker | i work for compaq in the professional services division |
| 05:24:21 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: You've got networking up? |
| 05:24:25 | JamieBecker | no |
| 05:24:31 | JamieBecker | how do i...? |
| 05:25:06 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: first, did you get the usb stuff working? |
| 05:25:20 | JamieBecker | no, haven't touched any of that yet. i'm not that quick! ;-) |
| 05:25:41 | JamieBecker | is any of that set up already in the complete root kit? |
| 05:26:54 | pkomarek | JamieBecker: nope. Both of them require some modification on your pc (neither requires a reboot). Take a look at the usb link -- after that, ipkg will be able to reach the net (though, as the familiar instructions suggest, run ntpdate first to avoid clock-skew warnings) |
| 05:27:05 | pkomarek | Okay, another typing break is demanded by xwrits... |
| 05:27:17 | perlan | boggles |
| 05:27:30 | JamieBecker | ok ;-) cool! thanks! i'm goin gto pack it in for the night! thanks a lot!!!!! |
| 05:32:04 | pkomarek | 'night everyone. |
| 09:57:12 | tarball | I have "killed" my /etc/pcmcia/ide.opts file. I'm using a cf-jacket with a 64 MB Card. Could someone send me his file or give me some instructions? Thanks... |
| 10:06:40 | Kero | `ipkg install pcmcia-cs` will reinstall the package, iirc |
| 10:09:01 | tarball | The problem is, I have to add the SerialNo of the drive somewhere, I have no Idea where to put it in. The instructions in the file itself aren't that clear... |
| 10:22:25 | Kero | Can't help you with that, sorry. |
| 10:23:56 | tarball | Is there somewhere a channel with a little more traffic? *g* |
| 10:30:22 | tarball | nice day, i'll look further... |
| 12:49:36 | pisymbol | Tangent: you up? |
| 12:57:50 | Tangent | pisymbol : Yep |
| 12:58:07 | pisymbol | Tangent: Couple of intimate issues |
| 12:58:17 | pisymbol | One: why isn't sound a default module? |
| 12:58:23 | Tangent | pisymbol : Sure... wanna talk on #intimate |
| 12:58:29 | Tangent | pisymbol : It is |
| 12:58:35 | pisymbol | hold crap |
| 13:02:52 | slowcoder | Tangent: You lived in CA, right ? |
| 13:06:31 | RoMo | hi |
| 13:47:33 | slideep | is idle (auto away after 20 minutes) [sarnus (l/on p/on)] |
| 15:49:15 | Tangent | slowcoder : No.. I live in London |
| 15:49:37 | Tangent | slowcoder : You're probably thinking of Jacques, who I believe is in CA |
| 20:49:09 | cmarqu[XXX1302] | hi all |
| 22:52:22 | pkomarek | Anyone with a dual pcmcia sleeve know how thick the sleeve with the iPAQ is? don't care what units. |