| 00:01.23 | DocScrutinizer | I guess it tainted the kernel all over plus all middleware, to control everything from execve() to dbus-send |
| 00:02.22 | DocScrutinizer | so it's hardly based on fuse, eh? |
| 00:04.23 | djszapi | M4rtinK: rebuild did not fix it |
| 00:04.36 | djszapi | rzr: it is not |
| 00:04.38 | rzr | someone did say that here but i thought like you first |
| 00:04.45 | djszapi | rzr: aegisfs is built out of fuse |
| 00:05.06 | M4rtinK | djszapi: still RPC timeout ? it might occur multiple times |
| 00:05.21 | M4rtinK | also, the MeeGo API might be down |
| 00:05.22 | rzr | well anyway can harmattan's kernel support fuse ? |
| 00:05.45 | djszapi | rzr: fuse is a user space fs ... |
| 00:06.00 | rzr | i know that |
| 00:06.07 | rzr | but i can not exec fusermount |
| 00:06.15 | rzr | see |
| 00:06.17 | rzr | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:07.12 | djszapi | of course you cannot |
| 00:07.26 | djszapi | I do not even know why you expect that, it could be possible. |
| 00:07.58 | djszapi | M4rtinK: yes, it is properly broken many times :( https://build.pub.meego.com/package/live_build_log?arch=armv7el&package=kdelibs&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan&repository=MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard |
| 00:08.13 | djszapi | M4rtinK: tried, to retrigger it many times. Never really had such an issue recently :( |
| 00:08.19 | djszapi | this scary stuff is coming back :(( |
| 00:10.36 | M4rtinK | are any other packages building ? |
| 00:11.07 | djszapi | M4rtinK: yes, as you saw, soprano did. |
| 00:11.44 | djszapi | the thing is stranger than ever since it now drops this rpc timeout during a proper build |
| 00:11.59 | djszapi | it always appeared previously from the beginning, not in the middle of a proper build. |
| 00:13.07 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: one unrelated comment: you got e pretty terrible serif font there for your code snippets, tiny and with e looking like c |
| 00:13.32 | DocScrutinizer | confused the hell outa me |
| 00:14.07 | DocScrutinizer | I thre times tried to wipe the dust away from my screen, when there wasn't any ;-D |
| 00:14.45 | rzr | buy a vt100 |
| 00:15.29 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: you checked your syslog for aegis nagging there about failed credentials checks etc? |
| 00:15.50 | djszapi | M4rtinK: but it happens with more packages, not just kdelibs. It also happens with kde-runtime |
| 00:17.09 | M4rtinK | The thing's building—it goes on forever—and—oh my God—it's full of No AEGIS_HASH_FDS environment ! |
| 00:18.45 | djszapi | not true |
| 00:19.08 | djszapi | that is just happening until the package starts building (ie: pre-steps, like bootstrap). |
| 00:19.54 | djszapi | and that is harmless message from our pov anyway |
| 00:20.32 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: also watch out not to suffer from |
| 00:20.36 | DocScrutinizer | ~malf |
| 00:20.36 | infobot | somebody said malf was http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg |
| 00:21.13 | DocScrutinizer | iirc this was what javispedro earned when playing with things like RPC, remote file systems etc |
| 00:21.17 | djszapi | it was a system-services bug |
| 00:21.26 | djszapi | nothing to do with aegis. |
| 00:21.36 | djszapi | the system-services maintainers fixed their bug, that is all |
| 00:21.43 | DocScrutinizer | at random moments in time, like 15 min after leaving the house with newly pimped up HARM |
| 00:22.03 | *** join/#harmattan fuz_ (nobody@vau75-10-88-164-23-88.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:22.05 | DocScrutinizer | triggered by a sweet nuttin |
| 00:22.14 | djszapi | since they put the device into malf state for whatever reason they want. They put the device into MALF state for no real reasons. |
| 00:25.01 | DocScrutinizer | I'm actually amazed you still can download HARM firmware without your virus checker identifying some malware in it XP |
| 00:25.19 | javispedro | is reminded to backup weekend photos from the n950 before it decides to malf again |
| 00:25.53 | djszapi | you should actually back up more thing than photos in general on any systems anyway |
| 00:25.59 | djszapi | things* |
| 00:26.42 | DocScrutinizer | writes a mail to kaspersky about that new evil malware with signature aegis-malf |
| 00:27.07 | rzr | 06:05.14SpeedEvilIs 'aegisfs' encrypted? |
| 00:27.09 | rzr | 06:05.23SpeedEvilOr is it just another filesystem |
| 00:27.20 | rzr | 06:05.35djszapiSpeedEvil: it is a userspace filesystem on the top of fuse. |
| 00:27.20 | djszapi | it is an encrypted fs.... |
| 00:27.22 | rzr | 06:06.15SpeedEvilSo it's not doing any encryption. K. |
| 00:27.24 | rzr | 06:06.24djszapiit does. |
| 00:27.26 | rzr | 06:06.32djszapiusing openssl |
| 00:27.27 | djszapi | nor another, based on fusefs .. |
| 00:27.37 | DocScrutinizer | aaaah aegisfs, yeah |
| 00:27.50 | macmaN | is anyone aware of anyone working on a harmattan sftp gui client |
| 00:28.07 | rzr | define gui :) |
| 00:28.24 | macmaN | well gui. as in not terminal. |
| 00:28.24 | *** join/#harmattan ybot (~quassel@61.14.141.36) |
| 00:28.52 | rzr | so forget about mc |
| 00:29.04 | javispedro | fuse is not entirely userspace |
| 00:29.08 | javispedro | so basically, forget about it |
| 00:29.10 | DocScrutinizer | good enough for me though |
| 00:29.19 | javispedro | unless you get CAP::sys_mount |
| 00:29.25 | DocScrutinizer | javispedro: thought as much |
| 00:29.29 | djszapi | http://fuse.sourceforge.net/ |
| 00:29.33 | djszapi | Filesystem in Userspace |
| 00:29.38 | djszapi | the damn first sentence... |
| 00:30.01 | javispedro | _most_ of it is userspace. |
| 00:30.01 | M4rtinK | it has a kernel module, doesn't it ? |
| 00:30.03 | javispedro | but not all of it |
| 00:30.09 | djszapi | Simple installation (no need to patch or recompile the kernel) |
| 00:30.10 | javispedro | is a microkernel fan |
| 00:30.11 | macmaN | rzr: yeah thats too slow to operate i think |
| 00:30.16 | rzr | actually most of the stuff seems working except the final mount |
| 00:30.28 | javispedro | you mean nothing is working then ;P |
| 00:30.42 | DocScrutinizer | aah, just in case you missed it: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/950/aegis/credlist_all_executables |
| 00:30.45 | rzr | javispedro: there is no hope to go further than that : http://www.who.is.free.fr/wiki/doku.php?id=fuse&#harmattan |
| 00:30.55 | javispedro | a true userspace filesystem would be implemented in glibc |
| 00:31.16 | djszapi | meh *shrugs* |
| 00:31.35 | djszapi | I mean I see no point in this mentioning. |
| 00:31.49 | djszapi | sys_mount is of course not availble, end of the story. |
| 00:31.54 | javispedro | the point is that fuse is a nogo either unless you get sys_mount |
| 00:31.57 | javispedro | exactly :( |
| 00:32.26 | djszapi | sorry, but why are you said ? |
| 00:32.42 | djszapi | I am actually happy since if you can just inject things so easily, that would be utterly weird. |
| 00:32.50 | djszapi | sad* |
| 00:33.11 | djszapi | and would probably mean dropping the whole security as is |
| 00:33.20 | vadimq_ | no, it's be like any decent device is supposed to work, like the N900 for instance |
| 00:33.20 | javispedro | walks away from the topic, ask rzr, he seemed to be interested. |
| 00:34.05 | djszapi | vadimq_: do not use it, if you do not like it. You are not enforced ? |
| 00:34.18 | djszapi | also N900 != N9, very important and fundamental understanding. |
| 00:34.24 | rzr | thx for confirming javispedro |
| 00:36.04 | vadimq_ | djszapi: Unfortunately the entire phone market is like that, so "do not use it" isn't a very practical option |
| 00:36.28 | luke-jr | N900 = crap; N9 = worse than crap |
| 00:36.33 | djszapi | vadimq_: yes, I know people like you hating everything |
| 00:36.35 | vadimq_ | so I'll resort to the next best thing: use the closest available option, root it, and complain everywhere that I'm very displeased at this situation |
| 00:36.45 | rzr | javispedro: while you here, there is no other way to extends / using remote fs ? or usb |
| 00:36.53 | Sput | actually loves his N9xx |
| 00:37.02 | vadimq_ | djszapi: I like the n900 |
| 00:37.16 | rzr | likes n810 |
| 00:37.25 | Sput | the n900 was a nice and fun hacking gadget, but the N9 is an actually usable phone |
| 00:37.31 | luke-jr | N810 was ok |
| 00:37.33 | GeneralAntilles | throws popcorns at people. |
| 00:37.42 | vadimq_ | a hacking gadget is exactly what I'm looking for, though |
| 00:37.44 | luke-jr | Sput: if we wanted a phone, we'd use Android |
| 00:37.51 | luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: hey :D |
| 00:37.57 | javispedro | a wedding! |
| 00:37.58 | djszapi | vadimq_: use n900, move to #maemo, thanks. |
| 00:37.58 | GeneralAntilles | Hey-oh, luke-jr. |
| 00:38.16 | luke-jr | vadimq_: are you like me? just want a usable handheld computer? |
| 00:38.20 | vadimq_ | djszapi: already got one. Going to try a N9 too |
| 00:38.31 | Sput | luke-jr: well, there's probably cheaper options for embedded linux devices that are fully open (because they don't need to double for an enduser-ready, FCC-approved phone) |
| 00:38.34 | luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: I got no-reply'd on the N950 :/ |
| 00:38.41 | djszapi | vadimq_: please do not join for ranking, if you could be on #maemo, and love N900 there. |
| 00:38.49 | luke-jr | Sput: no, there are currently no viable options on the market |
| 00:38.59 | vadimq_ | luke-jr: exactly what I was looking for when I bought it |
| 00:39.10 | vadimq_ | djszapi: I already am in #maemo |
| 00:39.17 | luke-jr | vadimq_: Milestone 3 is almost reflash-to-be-a-computer-able I think |
| 00:39.30 | luke-jr | but it's capacitive and crap :| |
| 00:39.33 | djszapi | vadimq_: then be active positively there, if you can at all... |
| 00:39.37 | djszapi | than* |
| 00:39.57 | rzr | btw did u see that google released latest android sources ? |
| 00:40.03 | vadimq_ | djszapi: Here's my idea for a positive contribution: My goal will be to completely root it, and do whatever I want with it |
| 00:40.07 | rzr | but who cares here :) |
| 00:40.11 | vadimq_ | that's what I plan to contribute, if I can |
| 00:40.13 | luke-jr | rzr: no way, they really did the minimum legal compliance? |
| 00:40.27 | rzr | they did not on prev version |
| 00:40.29 | M4rtinK | well, GTA04 from Goldelico seems to slowly become available :) |
| 00:40.33 | luke-jr | vadimq_: possible on N900, but it's obsolete |
| 00:40.35 | djszapi | vadimq_: completely unethical purpose |
| 00:40.43 | djszapi | I am sad to see such people... |
| 00:40.43 | luke-jr | djszapi: wtf are you smoking? |
| 00:40.58 | vadimq_ | djszapi: do not care. Get annoyed all you want |
| 00:41.05 | javispedro | aegis herbal essence ;P |
| 00:41.09 | luke-jr | unethical to CONTROL YOUR OWN PROPERTY? wtf? |
| 00:41.31 | M4rtinK | btw, what's the issue with mount credentials anyway ? |
| 00:41.34 | djszapi | luke-jr: yes, of course unethical to do what the gadget provider does not want |
| 00:41.43 | djszapi | and even in the contract or buying paper. |
| 00:41.46 | luke-jr | djszapi: nobody is providing a gadget. you buy it, it's yours. |
| 00:41.46 | rzr | M4rtinK: i planed to use fuse |
| 00:41.58 | luke-jr | djszapi: there is no contract or buying paper. |
| 00:42.00 | M4rtinK | IMO malvare can just easily send/download data using normal network connectivity |
| 00:42.03 | GeneralAntilles | luke-jr:, Android isn't GPL |
| 00:42.04 | djszapi | luke-jr: let Nokia keep the rights what you can do with *their* product |
| 00:42.09 | luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: the kernel has to be |
| 00:42.20 | luke-jr | djszapi: if you buy it, it's YOUR property. |
| 00:42.22 | djszapi | luke-jr: you are not enforced to buy it in any way |
| 00:42.22 | luke-jr | not Nokia's |
| 00:42.24 | vadimq_ | djszapi: I signed no contract when buying the phone |
| 00:42.34 | GeneralAntilles | ^ |
| 00:42.35 | djszapi | luke-jr: there *is* a contract for N950 for instance |
| 00:42.44 | rzr | M4rtinK: but it we need fuse-utils to be friend along aegis |
| 00:42.45 | javispedro | grabs a leftover popcorn from the floor |
| 00:42.48 | vadimq_ | that's a dev phone |
| 00:42.48 | luke-jr | djszapi: maybe. AIUI, all N950 are owned by Nokia |
| 00:42.49 | djszapi | and ranking about the device and OS via that contract *is* quite illegal |
| 00:42.54 | vadimq_ | not for sale afaik |
| 00:43.06 | luke-jr | brb |
| 00:43.29 | djszapi | look, it is very simple, you look for jailbreak |
| 00:43.42 | djszapi | which will cause damage for all the users if there are anything like that in public |
| 00:43.46 | macmaN | djszapi argument is only valid for n950. there is nothing unethical about breaking store bought n9. |
| 00:43.54 | GeneralAntilles | throws more corn at javispedro. |
| 00:43.57 | luke-jr | djszapi: FUD |
| 00:43.58 | djszapi | to my mother, father, to yours and *everybody* having this phone! |
| 00:44.08 | luke-jr | djszapi: controlling your own property does not hurt ANYONE |
| 00:44.20 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, I think you're confusing legality with breaking contract. |
| 00:44.22 | vadimq_ | djszapi: not my problem. I bought it, I own it, that's the end of it |
| 00:44.26 | luke-jr | also, note that in the US, jailbreaking is a legal right |
| 00:44.36 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, Nokia's NDAs and EULA's aren't the law. |
| 00:44.38 | M4rtinK | btw, a historic note - on the good old Neo FreeRunner, there is ONLY the root user, no others :D |
| 00:44.50 | luke-jr | I think djszapi is confusing "controlling my own property" with "using my property to interfere with others" |
| 00:44.59 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: Breaking the contract is *indeed* illegal |
| 00:45.00 | luke-jr | M4rtinK: bad design :p |
| 00:45.17 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, contract law is a separate thing from clauses of a contract being law themselves. |
| 00:45.19 | luke-jr | djszapi: EULAs aren't valid contracts. |
| 00:45.22 | pabs3 | GeneralAntilles: can I get some? |
| 00:45.31 | M4rtinK | no idea why it's like this - some optimisations maybe |
| 00:45.32 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, if you're going to play this game try to be accurate. |
| 00:45.37 | rzr | M4rtinK: do you still use FR ? |
| 00:45.42 | GeneralAntilles | pabs3, I only have the burnt kernels at the bottom left. |
| 00:45.43 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: not sure what you are talking about. |
| 00:45.46 | luke-jr | 's FR won't turn on ☹ |
| 00:45.48 | M4rtinK | from time to time |
| 00:45.50 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, yes, clearly. |
| 00:45.54 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: if you break the contract, you broke it. That is the point. |
| 00:45.57 | pabs3 | GeneralAntilles: hehe kernels |
| 00:45.57 | luke-jr | brb |
| 00:46.03 | M4rtinK | but I know people who use it as a fulltime phone |
| 00:46.10 | djszapi | and Nokia is entitled to give you a citation via the law system |
| 00:46.14 | rzr | M4rtinK: as a phone ? |
| 00:46.30 | djszapi | Nokia is actually very nice because of most of these ranking trolls could get at least citation. |
| 00:46.37 | djszapi | without any considerations. |
| 00:46.41 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, do you understand the difference between criminal and civil law? |
| 00:46.46 | macmaN | as a side note re phonehax0rs, during the lifespan of the n900, was the single high profile case of something bad happening to an n900 user? |
| 00:46.49 | M4rtinK | rzr: well, not only - navigation, web browsing, Jabber |
| 00:46.56 | javispedro | macmaN: in what sense? |
| 00:47.14 | rzr | M4rtinK: qtmoko? |
| 00:47.26 | macmaN | djszapi has claimed that fremantle was quite insecure compared to harmattan today |
| 00:47.36 | djszapi | still stick by |
| 00:47.40 | javispedro | macmaN: ah. |
| 00:47.45 | rzr | I guess he's right |
| 00:47.57 | macmaN | and this new security effort is to protect the current customers who have a huge powerhouse device in their hands but dont have a clue about what they have |
| 00:48.04 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, Nokia isn't "nice". Nokia's employees are rationally self-interested. |
| 00:48.18 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: yes, I know your ranking and whining. |
| 00:48.25 | GeneralAntilles | ranks up. |
| 00:48.29 | GeneralAntilles | pwns you all. |
| 00:48.31 | djszapi | but seriously, I do not care. You seem to want to know better things than internals. |
| 00:48.32 | macmaN | but during the whole lifespan of several years of n900, i dont recall a single high profile incident of something serious happening to a n900 user |
| 00:48.38 | rzr | security is not always toward users or owners think of that |
| 00:48.40 | M4rtinK | BTW, my FreeRunner recently got upgraded with Navigation board v3, so it has an added 3D accelerometer, 3D gyroscope, 3D magnetometer, pressure (height) and temperature sensors :) |
| 00:48.50 | macmaN | something that would brought some seriously bad rep to a generally open platform |
| 00:49.00 | M4rtinK | rzr: SHR, I think |
| 00:49.00 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, by the way, these conversations right here are why they usually don't let engineers talk to customers. |
| 00:49.03 | macmaN | and the n900 is getting hacked to death even today |
| 00:49.07 | rzr | macmaN: n900 hadnt fancy nfc stuff etc |
| 00:49.15 | vadimq_ | M4rtinK: that's interesting, how's it working? I pondered getting one for a while. Is it usable? |
| 00:49.25 | Sput | macmaN: of course, the N900 was neither very popular not really used by "normal" people |
| 00:49.26 | pabs3 | rzr: Trusted Computing is fun isn't it |
| 00:49.31 | djszapi | macmaN: how do you know Fremantle is malware free ? I know you think it is, but how do you *really* know ? |
| 00:49.34 | M4rtinK | but Qt Moko looks very usable, I have once even met the main Qt Moko developer on a conference |
| 00:49.49 | rzr | pabs3: lafkon |
| 00:50.01 | macmaN | Sput: yes, but i highly highly doubt there was a significant % of linux gurus among them like us |
| 00:50.02 | Robot101 | djszapi: if there was any malware that would be *illegal*! nobody would ever do that. |
| 00:50.12 | Robot101 | </troll> |
| 00:50.30 | djszapi | sorry ? you seem to have no idea what happened with the kernel.org |
| 00:50.36 | Sput | macmaN: I don't think the N900 was ever a worthwhile target for your typical evil scriptkiddie |
| 00:50.36 | djszapi | when it was rooted |
| 00:50.41 | macmaN | djszapi: i dont know. it doesnt matter. if something really serious happens its all over the blogs. ive been following this field for years. |
| 00:50.42 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, how do you know Harmattan is malware free? |
| 00:50.47 | djszapi | very good example for linux, thanks very trusted servers |
| 00:50.54 | djszapi | which should even be more secure than a desktop |
| 00:50.54 | rzr | kernel.org was running on n900 lol |
| 00:50.57 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: all the sensors seem to work as expected, but you had to build the drivers yourself, at least a few months ago, might have been integrated already |
| 00:51.13 | djszapi | macmaN: kernel.org was "malware free" for many years |
| 00:51.17 | djszapi | macmaN: one day, it was jailbraked |
| 00:51.19 | djszapi | completely. |
| 00:51.24 | djszapi | they said the same for years |
| 00:51.32 | macmaN | yeah, well kernel.org is a longer lifespan project |
| 00:51.34 | Sput | do they know what happened to kernel.org yet? |
| 00:51.36 | macmaN | compared to any mobile phone |
| 00:51.39 | djszapi | and what if your data on kernel.org is already in the hand of the CIA ? |
| 00:51.40 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: there is also a damon for sending the data over network, wich might be quite handy given the computing power of the Neo |
| 00:51.40 | rzr | letme check if bugzilla.k.o is back |
| 00:51.46 | M4rtinK | *daemon |
| 00:51.49 | macmaN | if your phone survives in the open jungle for 3-4 years you have done your job well |
| 00:51.52 | djszapi | just because you do not *really* guess, it does *not* mean it is not there. |
| 00:52.01 | djszapi | that is the point of the *smart* malwares. |
| 00:52.09 | vadimq_ | M4rtinK: I mean, does it actually work as a phone? Not necessarily 100% or being all polished, but stuff like not crashing randomly, not dropping calls, etc? |
| 00:52.09 | javispedro | fremantle was absolute not malware free, there were all those adware ovi store apps... oops. |
| 00:52.11 | djszapi | you do not know your stuff is completely exploited |
| 00:52.52 | macmaN | yep true. but really, *nobody* hacking these things to death doesnt notice during all this time? i find that to be low probability. |
| 00:53.03 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: I have seen a Friend using it as a phone, multiple times :) |
| 00:53.16 | macmaN | low enough that i think there oughta be a sensible switch to boot aegis-free harmattan if user so wishes |
| 00:53.38 | vadimq_ | djszapi: http://www.carrieriq.com/ -- malware, included with the phone |
| 00:53.47 | djszapi | macmaN: seems you did not understand the reasoning above. You ignore what I wrote. |
| 00:53.55 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: he got stuck outside the house once since he could not ring me to open the door once, though :) |
| 00:53.58 | djszapi | I do not continue my reasoning, if you ignore it. |
| 00:54.18 | macmaN | "smart malware"? |
| 00:54.46 | djszapi | yes, if I steal your data, I will inform you ? Would that be smart ? |
| 00:54.58 | djszapi | or get a key to your door, I would inform you before breaking ? |
| 00:55.23 | djszapi | most of the time not even after entered your room more times. You do not even dream anybody else has a key to your room... |
| 00:55.26 | macmaN | i dont get it. all the aegis people would stay fully protected. |
| 00:55.55 | macmaN | are you saying this malware will suddenly know something critical from the unlocked devices that they would not be able to know now that everything is locked? |
| 00:55.59 | rzr | please can you paste me your n950 lines : |
| 00:56.01 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: If you want more info, you can contact him directly - we have a Jabber MUC or I can give you his JID |
| 00:56.02 | rzr | ls -l /usr/bin/fusermount /sbin/mount.fuse |
| 00:56.06 | djszapi | as I said really gazillion times, I can publish a quite malware app to fremantle ovi |
| 00:56.18 | djszapi | and I can do anything with your device I just want to. |
| 00:56.34 | djszapi | I do not even probably need OVI for that. |
| 00:56.45 | macmaN | that is totally fine with me. i pressed the big "i accept responsibility and forfeit my 600€ cyan baby warranty" |
| 00:56.52 | macmaN | button |
| 00:56.54 | javispedro | rzr: files not there |
| 00:57.02 | rzr | true :) |
| 00:57.09 | rzr | those are mine |
| 00:57.09 | djszapi | macmaN: but you are *not* the only customers |
| 00:57.22 | djszapi | please *try* to understand Nokia does not focus on people like you with N9 |
| 00:57.25 | rzr | this mean I must go to sleep |
| 00:57.29 | djszapi | this is really a fundamental day 0 step |
| 00:57.31 | macmaN | so youre saying that SO many stupid people will open their device up just for fun? |
| 00:57.37 | vadimq_ | M4rtinK: cool, thanks :-) And not right now, I don't think I'll be buying more stuff for some time. You just got me curious because I considered buying one before going for the N900, as back then the freerunner looked very impractical and I needed something that worked |
| 00:57.42 | macmaN | that nokia will collapse under that weight of stupidity? |
| 00:57.56 | javispedro | macmaN: isn't that evident? they went with wp7... |
| 00:57.58 | djszapi | if you do not understand what this device is for, you will just keep whining. |
| 00:58.17 | vadimq_ | djszapi: the device is for whatever I decide it is for, it's that simple |
| 00:58.24 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: well, yeah - the N900 is MUCH more polished, even now |
| 00:58.33 | djszapi | vadimq_: sounds like a troll, really :) |
| 00:58.42 | djszapi | of course you can move only *inside* the frame you got. |
| 00:58.56 | vadimq_ | djszapi: weird reasoning you have |
| 00:58.58 | GeneralAntilles | So, I think we should have a vote. |
| 00:59.10 | javispedro | vote vote vote! |
| 00:59.16 | djszapi | I would never really vote on this troll channel :) |
| 00:59.16 | SpeedEvil | votes for puppies. |
| 00:59.18 | javispedro | occupy talk.maemo.org! |
| 00:59.20 | M4rtinK | vadimq_: though the FreeRunner development still continues, though with quite a slow pace, mostly thanks to all the open drivers |
| 00:59.30 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi seems to trip over the trolling line more often than not |
| 00:59.45 | GeneralAntilles | and the channels descends into useless noisy argument because of it. |
| 00:59.46 | DocScrutinizer | aegis malf is malware |
| 00:59.58 | M4rtinK | there is kernel 2.6.39 and Python 2.7 on SHR by default :) |
| 01:00.08 | macmaN | heh. nokia already put a full blown linux on it. "what this device is for" that is indeed funny. i understand full well that a large majority of nokia customers just dont have a clue about anything and cyan color is the main argument. |
| 01:00.12 | GeneralAntilles | I'm a bit bored of it. |
| 01:00.16 | Robot101 | GeneralAntilles: ++ |
| 01:00.34 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: who does not respect the Harmattan principles and keeps whining like you on a harmattan channel is indeed troll |
| 01:00.39 | GeneralAntilles | So, anybody else think we should make unproductive whining about other people "whining" a kickable offense? |
| 01:00.40 | macmaN | world does not advance by the work of stupid people and thats what disappoints me |
| 01:00.49 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: if it happens once, it is acceptable, but every single day is *not* |
| 01:00.58 | macmaN | the smart people are getting cut off a significant opportunity to innovate further |
| 01:01.01 | *** mode/#harmattan [+o GeneralAntilles] by ChanServ |
| 01:01.02 | djszapi | and that is what has been degrading this channel from the day first |
| 01:01.10 | M4rtinK | I would say that current MALF implementation is a bit extreme, concerning all user data is lost - contacts, photos, everything |
| 01:01.11 | macmaN | for apparently total bum reasoning |
| 01:01.20 | macmaN | i guess thats the kind of stuff that keeps us all from having nice things |
| 01:01.27 | javispedro | decides to go to bed before the fun is spoiled |
| 01:01.39 | GeneralAntilles | javispedro, 'night. |
| 01:01.54 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, you excel at escalating. |
| 01:02.10 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, it's boring and counter-productive. |
| 01:02.13 | DocScrutinizer | gets a coffee and maybe some popcorn, and wonders if his brain will deal with the impact of disabling the ignore list |
| 01:02.17 | javispedro | gnite folks |
| 01:02.20 | GeneralAntilles | Everybody's entitled to express their opinion. |
| 01:02.31 | SpeedEvil | Night javispedro |
| 01:02.32 | DocScrutinizer | cya javispedro |
| 01:02.32 | GeneralAntilles | But we all know your opinion |
| 01:02.40 | GeneralAntilles | and I know I'm tired of hearing about it. |
| 01:02.41 | djszapi | you do not really have any technical good reasonings about these |
| 01:02.44 | rzr | while we trolling |
| 01:02.48 | rzr | i have a question |
| 01:02.58 | GeneralAntilles | My technical reasons are it's getting in the way of productive discussion. |
| 01:02.59 | djszapi | so I am not forced to accept untechnical whinings, sorry |
| 01:03.03 | M4rtinK | djszapi: BTW, that KDElibs build seems to be still building |
| 01:03.07 | vadimq_ | mhm. I made my point and don't think there's not much left to say, so I'll be going to sleep soon too |
| 01:03.08 | djszapi | like "I like breaking the Nokia contract I signed" |
| 01:03.09 | rzr | should we post in talk.maemo or forum.meego ? |
| 01:03.11 | GeneralAntilles | So, djszapi, consider this your first and only warning. |
| 01:03.12 | djszapi | this is not acceptable by me |
| 01:03.24 | DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: djzz is here to learn how we try to fsck his beloved aegis, and we are so mean not to tell him how we do it, anymore |
| 01:03.26 | vadimq_ | djszapi: I signed no contract |
| 01:03.28 | GeneralAntilles | Quit the bitching about people "whining" (i.e., talking about platsec) |
| 01:03.40 | GeneralAntilles | Or you're banned. |
| 01:04.00 | *** join/#harmattan jpwhiting (~jpwhiting@kde/developer/whiting) |
| 01:04.11 | djszapi | there are no bitchings. |
| 01:04.21 | macmaN | im pretty certain this platsec topic needs to be addressed at some different level |
| 01:04.44 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, OK, I'm glad you have an opinion on the subject. |
| 01:04.46 | GeneralAntilles | My warning still stands. |
| 01:05.04 | GeneralAntilles | Now, moving on, rzr has a real question. |
| 01:05.08 | GeneralAntilles | rzr, post what, exactly? |
| 01:05.14 | djszapi | I am not sure what your warning is about actually. |
| 01:05.25 | Robot101 | djszapi: Nokia is perfectly competent to enforce whatever contracts they have over their customers. I imagine they will not do so, or care, for the N9, as it's hard to see what contract is being broken. this channel is for people who *want* to modify, tweak, play and possibly break their device, and are mature enough to actually appreciate that if they break it, they keep both pieces. |
| 01:05.25 | vadimq_ | yes, actually I'm most interested in as much info as possible about it |
| 01:05.55 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, you know exactly what it's about. Quit stirring the channel into a frothy mess everything somebody mentions Aegis. |
| 01:06.00 | Robot101 | djszapi: the question is, why are you actually here trying to stop people doing that? you are not part of Nokia's enforcement of any supposed contract, and nor will you *ever* convince the users of the channel they should not even try. |
| 01:06.19 | djszapi | Robot101: it does not really matter if there are 100 people wanna make a jailbreak, but many times more userbase, who would not like to see those in public |
| 01:06.25 | rzr | GeneralAntilles: posting harmattan specificities like aegis etc |
| 01:06.35 | djszapi | and that is the point! Please do not make my mother's phone more insecure in public than it is ! |
| 01:06.40 | GeneralAntilles | rzr, the more technical crowd is mostly at MeeGo.com |
| 01:06.41 | NIN101 | m( |
| 01:06.46 | vadimq_ | djszapi: you're out of luck then |
| 01:06.47 | pabs3 | djszapi: security by obscurity doesn't help anyone |
| 01:06.59 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, you and I both know it doesn't work like that. |
| 01:07.08 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: please tell these things to people swearing about aegis |
| 01:07.16 | djszapi | every single day without any technical correctness |
| 01:07.19 | djszapi | I am really tired of that |
| 01:07.26 | djszapi | and that is what you should actually do |
| 01:07.32 | Robot101 | djszapi: telling the people on this channel not to break aegis, for the good of your mother, won't stop someone breaking it. if I were you - I'd try and break it myself - and fix it. not just go mental at other people who are also testing the boundaries. |
| 01:07.38 | djszapi | not "using" your operator power to "win" a technical discussion |
| 01:07.43 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, tyranny of some asshole on the internet who has a bunch of other assholes who agree with him. |
| 01:07.44 | M4rtinK | off topic: there is a square in my hometown with a bronze Aegis statue on a tall pedestal :) |
| 01:07.45 | rzr | GeneralAntilles: i was ok to use meego , but i feel this should be in the maemo place ... and let meego for open projects like CE Mer and other rpm derivates |
| 01:07.49 | macmaN | Robot101: ive learned tonight that apparently when one harmattan becomes totally open, malware writers are able to learn to do things that are able to attack everyone. also ive learned that it is *not* possible to make it difficult for the regular "what is this lunix thing?" dumbusers to open their devices, so they will likely do it by accident in masses and nokia will get mad bad press. |
| 01:07.54 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, end result is: I don't want to hear it. |
| 01:08.02 | djszapi | really, if you are not good to get out a technical discussion as "winner" with technical arguments, I am sorry for you |
| 01:08.14 | djszapi | but do not use more than technical arguments in a technical discussion |
| 01:08.19 | djszapi | because it is getting really tiring. |
| 01:08.33 | GeneralAntilles | I'm not trying to win any discussion. |
| 01:08.38 | GeneralAntilles | I'm just tired of you making noise. |
| 01:08.42 | GeneralAntilles | So, end of discussion. |
| 01:08.50 | vadimq_ | djszapi: you're not making a technical discussion. Your mother isn't a technical subject :-P |
| 01:08.52 | GeneralAntilles | Shut it or get the boot. |
| 01:09.03 | M4rtinK | (and there is a bigger statue of a Red Army soldier with a SMG on another square right next to it :D ) |
| 01:09.12 | macmaN | well GeneralAntilles ive gained insight and understanding from djszapi. i definitely would not vote for banning or anything him. |
| 01:09.17 | djszapi | Robot101: breaking is completely fine until you do not publish those breakages. |
| 01:09.29 | rzr | dont ban anyone |
| 01:09.31 | djszapi | Robot101: use *only* your own purpose, or report it for the platform developers to fix it. |
| 01:10.02 | rzr | just relax and let the trollers fall asleep |
| 01:10.03 | djszapi | Robot101: everything is quite unethical |
| 01:10.10 | pabs3 | haha |
| 01:10.12 | vadimq_ | djszapi: disagree. If I do manage to break something, I will publish it |
| 01:10.13 | GeneralAntilles | rzr, this has been ongoing for months. |
| 01:10.28 | GeneralAntilles | rzr, the timeout period has long since expired. |
| 01:10.28 | rzr | most of the time there is no activities here |
| 01:10.44 | rzr | well i am not here 24/7 so i can not say |
| 01:10.46 | GeneralAntilles | and it's not helping that the only activity is djszapi Vs The World |
| 01:10.58 | djszapi | rzr: there are mostly whining people |
| 01:11.00 | djszapi | you can check out the logs |
| 01:11.07 | DocScrutinizer | ~djs |
| 01:11.07 | infobot | djs is probably http://fun.sdinet.de/pics/english/conversation-flowchart.jpg |
| 01:11.07 | djszapi | about aegis without any technical correctness |
| 01:11.11 | rzr | he did bite me once :) but I can handle it |
| 01:11.13 | djszapi | I can grab many situations |
| 01:11.20 | macmaN | vadimq_ djszapi i think it makes no sense to discuss pros and cons of security flaws. there should be plenty of google material on that which let you apply a good decision on any given situation. |
| 01:11.32 | pabs3 | djszapi: full disclosure is much more popular with security researchers, sorry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_disclosure |
| 01:11.42 | djszapi | macmaN: what is your point ? |
| 01:11.56 | macmaN | djszapi: not you so much, more vadimq_ |
| 01:12.05 | djszapi | pabs3: you are *quite* wrong |
| 01:12.06 | M4rtinK | I would say that #harmattan is about the most active channel from the Maemo/MeeGo/Mer sphere |
| 01:12.15 | djszapi | Qt even has its own internal mailing list for security issues |
| 01:12.25 | macmaN | M4rtinK: got any clickable stats? thats interesting |
| 01:13.00 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: well, you know the maemo community well |
| 01:13.06 | djszapi | I would really like to avoid such trollings here. |
| 01:13.13 | djszapi | I do really prefer technical discussions... |
| 01:13.24 | djszapi | and it is said by many people, not just me. |
| 01:13.25 | rzr | btw there was a #DeathToAegis channel once |
| 01:13.38 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: see ? & |
| 01:13.39 | djszapi | ^ |
| 01:13.39 | Robot101 | http://xkcd.com/386/ tbh |
| 01:13.41 | M4rtinK | macmaN: nope - I just autojoin #maemo,#maemo-devel,#maemo-ssu,#pymaemo,#radeon,#meego-arm,#meego,#meego-python,#harmattan,#mer,#nemomobile and checkck whats new from time to time :) |
| 01:13.44 | rzr | or something simillar |
| 01:13.50 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: it's just like 70% of activities here tangent aegis sooner or later, and every time some nototious spy of platsec jumps up and tears down the discussion like right now |
| 01:13.55 | M4rtinK | macmaN: so it might be a bit subjective |
| 01:13.56 | macmaN | M4rtinK: ok i think they are all weblogged too |
| 01:13.58 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: rzr's post is rather trollish for instance, I mean the channel |
| 01:14.05 | djszapi | those people should be warned in the first place. |
| 01:14.08 | vadimq_ | macmaN: I agree, my point is that this is not a technical argument. It's a moral argument: those who feel the user's wishes are more important, vs those who think the manufaturer makes the rules |
| 01:14.22 | djszapi | because things like this does not really make a good atmosphere (apart from among trolls) |
| 01:14.56 | macmaN | vadimq_: well nokia's biggest problem for the last decade has been management. so its no wonder there is just not enough understanding. |
| 01:15.06 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, it's neither productive nor appropriate for you to respond to everyone you disagree with in this channel with a long sermon about Aegis. |
| 01:15.07 | djszapi | vadimq_: it /is/ a technical discussion |
| 01:15.13 | djszapi | you abuse what technically Nokia decided. |
| 01:15.27 | rzr | I respect nokia position and users who complain |
| 01:15.34 | djszapi | and as for N950 users, it is even contracted properly which is a contract break in many cases |
| 01:15.35 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, I think you should probably read DocScrutinizer's link: http://fun.sdinet.de/pics/english/conversation-flowchart.jpg |
| 01:15.37 | rzr | this is a tough world |
| 01:15.48 | GeneralAntilles | and base your decisions about whether you're having a discussion or trolling on it. |
| 01:15.48 | djszapi | vadimq_: I could report many users to nokia actually here. |
| 01:15.50 | djszapi | to get citation |
| 01:16.04 | GeneralAntilles | djszapi, then do so. |
| 01:16.12 | vadimq_ | djszapi: My argument is simple: what Nokia wants is irrelevant, since I own the device. |
| 01:16.14 | GeneralAntilles | Otherwise nobody's impressed by idle threats. |
| 01:16.16 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: I do not care about Doc* |
| 01:16.22 | djszapi | but I think I will just ignore you as well |
| 01:16.26 | djszapi | we do not have much common points. |
| 01:16.31 | djszapi | better for both of us |
| 01:16.37 | vadimq_ | djszapi: feel free to. Like I said, I have not signed any contracts with Nokia. |
| 01:16.45 | GeneralAntilles | Then do so, next time I see you ranting endlessly about the "whining" you're getting the boot, though. |
| 01:16.48 | djszapi | vadimq_: it is not against you |
| 01:16.54 | macmaN | vadimq_: you have n950? |
| 01:16.56 | Robot101 | hahahahaha I'd like to see Nokia lawyers come in and shut down #harmattan |
| 01:17.00 | vadimq_ | macmaN: no |
| 01:17.03 | Robot101 | this would make great press |
| 01:17.05 | rzr | is feeling a bit guilty because no one talked about aegis before I joined with fuse :) |
| 01:17.06 | Robot101 | please, send them |
| 01:17.07 | djszapi | GeneralAntilles: of course I will do, if people whine without any technical correctness |
| 01:17.10 | Robot101 | the EFF would love it |
| 01:17.40 | M4rtinK | I can say I have not clashed witch aegis during my (quite highlevel) development work (yet) - but I'm quite sad about the lost potential features and developer time it seems to be causing |
| 01:18.00 | djszapi | the lost developer time is actually for me in many cases |
| 01:18.05 | djszapi | helping the noobs with aegis ranking |
| 01:18.10 | djszapi | without technical correctness |
| 01:18.23 | djszapi | sometimes I spent hours with them until realizing he was just friggin noob. |
| 01:18.29 | macmaN | is there some aegis introduction document? |
| 01:18.35 | djszapi | of course |
| 01:18.49 | rzr | that one |
| 01:18.52 | rzr | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Developing_for_Harmattan_Harmattan_security_Security_guide_Using_Harmattan_security_features.html |
| 01:18.54 | rzr | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:19.18 | macmaN | so your time is occupied simply because people dont read the couple of webpages? |
| 01:19.21 | macmaN | or what is the issue? |
| 01:19.22 | djszapi | M4rtinK: and quite frankely, I am tired of ranking without technical correctness |
| 01:19.32 | djszapi | M4rtinK: it has been happening here for quite a few months |
| 01:19.54 | djszapi | and 99% they are completely wrong from technical pov. I have the impression they just feed each other with this. |
| 01:20.12 | pabs3 | what is this "ranking"? |
| 01:20.17 | macmaN | pabs3: +1 |
| 01:20.18 | djszapi | macmaN: the problem is the whining. |
| 01:20.26 | DocScrutinizer | ~aegis |
| 01:20.26 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 01:20.36 | M4rtinK | well, from watching the discussion here, on TMO and FMO so far, I would say people have 3 main issues with Aegis |
| 01:21.02 | djszapi | macmaN: the "dear" user wrote a completely broken script which would break on any debian distrbutions, but join the channel for saying "aegis sucks" from the minute ifrst |
| 01:21.06 | djszapi | or fuck aegis(TM) |
| 01:21.16 | djszapi | gazillion examples in the history of this channel like that |
| 01:21.32 | M4rtinK | 1) they are not sure which credentials are needed for what 2) there are some credentials that are just not available 3) weird issues that might be caused by Aegis or not |
| 01:21.33 | *** join/#harmattan buser (~test@c-98c1e455.017-474-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 01:21.39 | macmaN | not sure exactly why not just let him |
| 01:21.47 | rzr | infobot: http://ia600200.us.archive.org/12/items/Trusted-Computing/Trusted-Computing_LAFKON_HIGH.ogv |
| 01:21.54 | macmaN | write the horribly broken script |
| 01:22.10 | djszapi | 1) documented 2) documented 3) mostly because people has been feeding each other with ranking from the minute first |
| 01:22.13 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: ??? |
| 01:22.32 | djszapi | 3) That is why it is like that. If they have not been feeding each other like that from minute first, there is no such a situation |
| 01:22.44 | macmaN | djszapi: define ranking. what does this word mean to you. |
| 01:23.15 | djszapi | macmaN: I have just told you. "Aegis sucks" "fuck aegis(TM)" and things like that after being technically completely incorrect |
| 01:23.24 | macmaN | ranking means positioning things in order |
| 01:23.25 | rzr | infobot: feel free to add that link into your TC refences |
| 01:23.25 | infobot | o/~ I FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL free to add that link into your TC refences |
| 01:23.27 | macmaN | first, second, third |
| 01:23.37 | djszapi | macmaN: this is definitely whining. |
| 01:23.40 | macmaN | are you talking about ranting? |
| 01:23.49 | djszapi | sorry, yes |
| 01:24.11 | macmaN | ok well it took me a while too to come up with a solution to that one |
| 01:24.18 | DocScrutinizer | oh my gosh, she's drunk again ;-P |
| 01:24.24 | DocScrutinizer | ~botsnack |
| 01:24.24 | infobot | DocScrutinizer: thanks |
| 01:25.42 | macmaN | djszapi: so how useful a general linux box would be with the same harmattan aegis put on top of that. how do you estimate the usability and popularity? |
| 01:25.46 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: the factoid already reached max length |
| 01:25.53 | macmaN | i think my computer would become half-useless to me |
| 01:26.05 | djszapi | macmaN: that is what actually and tizen do |
| 01:26.19 | djszapi | upstream aegis implementation usage. |
| 01:26.27 | macmaN | with no off switch? |
| 01:26.32 | djszapi | that is what we did for meego one year ago |
| 01:26.49 | djszapi | macmaN: well, that is not the case if you know the linux kernel and Linus ... |
| 01:27.02 | macmaN | i need to remember to always ask about the off switch. that is the *only* issue here really. |
| 01:27.12 | djszapi | you need to have an option in the linux kernel to be compltely unsecure... |
| 01:27.21 | djszapi | meanwhile that model makes zero sense in business |
| 01:27.32 | djszapi | like maemo, harmattan for obvious reasons. |
| 01:27.46 | macmaN | oh really? so you think development environments should also live under business restrictions? |
| 01:27.48 | djszapi | macmaN: that is an annoying habit actually |
| 01:27.58 | macmaN | im pretty certain we'd be somewhere in the 1500s policies with that right now |
| 01:27.59 | djszapi | asking that for months when *everybody* knows it is not available |
| 01:28.32 | djszapi | sorry, but I do not even understand your lost remark ... |
| 01:28.35 | djszapi | not even a word ... |
| 01:28.48 | macmaN | 03:27 macmaN>oh really? so you think development environments should also live under business restrictions? |
| 01:28.52 | *** join/#harmattan Smtih (~degtep@93.88.184.12) |
| 01:29.00 | macmaN | ignore the mid-age thing for now |
| 01:29.04 | djszapi | what is that supposed to mean ? |
| 01:29.24 | macmaN | it is supposed to mean that what if you wanted to develop something new or better but the security framework is so tight you simply cant do it. |
| 01:29.44 | djszapi | sorry but do not force Nokia to do what you want |
| 01:29.44 | macmaN | so world will just have to do without because its secure that way? |
| 01:29.52 | *** part/#harmattan Robot101 (~robot101@iota.hadesian.co.uk) |
| 01:29.58 | djszapi | get money, have a business, make an architecture and go with your model |
| 01:30.15 | djszapi | we *all* know this is not the case for N9, so ranting about it for months gets really cumbersome |
| 01:30.44 | macmaN | no need to make this about nokia, i havent had a discussion about it yet, trying to learn something here in general first |
| 01:30.51 | djszapi | actually, I need to do other things, so sorry for leaving for good... |
| 01:30.52 | macmaN | it = platsec issues in general |
| 01:31.12 | macmaN | np. ttyl. |
| 01:31.36 | DocScrutinizer | I feel like watching from the distance behind a granny standing at the quay feeding ducks. Seeing some boring occasional movement which doesn't make sense as you can't see the ducks down on the water, they are behind the quay wall. |
| 01:31.49 | macmaN | in essence it boils down to that nokia just dont have the right people anymore, rest of the manufacturers dont have the right people AT ALL |
| 01:32.29 | macmaN | so its basically up to a select group of guys to change this crap for the future with the next device or the one after that |
| 01:32.39 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp) |
| 01:33.11 | macmaN | guys like a bunch of them sitting in this channel |
| 01:33.20 | DocScrutinizer | only that this N9 is the last device with maemo/meego |
| 01:33.51 | macmaN | yeah but its not like linux is dead. its possible to develop a new one. |
| 01:34.01 | M4rtinK | well, that's typical - once you get it about right, why not quit ? :) |
| 01:34.10 | DocScrutinizer | and yes macmaN, *you* are the boring grany, and you're not feeding ducklings but a troll |
| 01:34.25 | M4rtinK | BTW, anyone noticed Harmattan even supports SIM Toolkit ? :) |
| 01:34.55 | macmaN | damn am i. well one things for sure, this type of stuff is sure to give you grey hair :> |
| 01:35.13 | DocScrutinizer | wow, mardy |
| 01:35.20 | DocScrutinizer | M4rtinK: meh |
| 01:35.26 | macmaN | i just have wonder why all the other manufacturers are such a bunch of pussies |
| 01:35.30 | macmaN | have to * |
| 01:36.01 | DocScrutinizer | yeah, really. If they weren't then they'd adopt aegis right away |
| 01:36.09 | DocScrutinizer | ;-P |
| 01:36.29 | *** join/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp) |
| 01:36.58 | djszapi | macmaN: from what I know, qt security people just ban such people like some trolls above: "I will publish any jailbreak" as I find one. |
| 01:37.40 | macmaN | M4rtinK: well you cant blame a champion of going out when on top. actually thats the best way. except nokia is a huge underdog. |
| 01:37.53 | djszapi | qt security people has actually almost the same stance for managing these things as Harmattan sec people. |
| 01:38.10 | djszapi | have* |
| 01:38.30 | djszapi | so yes, sure ... qt people are also bad ... |
| 01:38.33 | djszapi | I know for sure ... |
| 01:39.14 | djszapi | put it mildly, qt sec would not understand GeneralAntilles's "warning" either. |
| 01:39.17 | macmaN | well i have absolutely no side or interest in that particular opinion |
| 01:39.27 | djszapi | moreover from what I see, they sometimes are even more harsh about trolls. |
| 01:39.33 | M4rtinK | didn't they just fix stuff like buffer overruns, remote code execution and similar bugs/issues ? |
| 01:39.39 | DocScrutinizer | just had a funny idea: patch voicetogoog to never really stop recording and just slightly modify the URL to send the .wav to. Wonders if that would get detected by ovi store as malware then - if not then what exactly was it aegis is protecting us from? |
| 01:39.40 | rzr | did read that interesting thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75612 |
| 01:39.50 | djszapi | M4rtinK: not really... |
| 01:39.53 | macmaN | re reporting security vulnerability. imho a mobile phone platsec should simply have an off switch. its not a nuclear reactor safety device. |
| 01:40.01 | nibbler | it'd be a smart choice from nokia's side (imho) if they'd enable people to port meego to their newer devices. i'd love to have the freedom of choice as concerns mobile OSes as i have with desktop computers. it would be the least expensive strategy to keep meego as an option to winmo. (if the community could sustain an effort to get adopt new hardware platforms as they appear) |
| 01:40.36 | djszapi | they /can/ port mer... |
| 01:40.45 | djszapi | there are videos about mer and PA running on N9 ... |
| 01:40.50 | djszapi | so this is again technically incorrect |
| 01:40.55 | macmaN | yep mer is good stuff |
| 01:41.07 | djszapi | macmaN: except that anybody could switch that off |
| 01:41.12 | M4rtinK | the recent videos look pretty cool |
| 01:41.19 | djszapi | so any malwares, and there you go into the valley.... |
| 01:41.52 | macmaN | djszapi: oh you mean its impossible to enforce it to be 150% user choice? that i did not understand from before. |
| 01:41.53 | DocScrutinizer | macmaN: just that the way aegis works you would taint the rootfs almost inevitably which in turn leads to |
| 01:41.56 | DocScrutinizer | ~malf |
| 01:41.56 | infobot | malf is, like, http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg |
| 01:42.01 | djszapi | macmaN: and at any rate, we had proposal *18* months ago |
| 01:42.11 | DocScrutinizer | next time you switch security on again |
| 01:42.24 | djszapi | so you are talking to a person who went through these things 18 months ago |
| 01:42.33 | macmaN | Doc ack |
| 01:42.34 | djszapi | just FYI |
| 01:42.50 | macmaN | djszapi can you give me yes/no to my last q? |
| 01:43.06 | djszapi | I do not really understand your last question... |
| 01:43.31 | macmaN | i thought you said if user can switch it off, then malware can switch it off |
| 01:43.54 | DocScrutinizer | nah |
| 01:43.57 | macmaN | so i ask there is no way to make absolutely sure it is the users concious choice to switch it off? |
| 01:43.58 | djszapi | correct |
| 01:44.06 | djszapi | incorrect |
| 01:44.11 | DocScrutinizer | sure there is |
| 01:44.21 | djszapi | but that way is just impossible |
| 01:44.23 | DocScrutinizer | simple |
| 01:44.29 | DocScrutinizer | ask for a password |
| 01:44.33 | djszapi | in the practice |
| 01:44.43 | M4rtinK | well, won't malware won't get there in the first place while it is ON ? |
| 01:44.44 | djszapi | However, as I said, I went through these things 18 months ago |
| 01:45.02 | macmaN | djszapi and this proposal and discussion is not visible i assume? |
| 01:45.05 | DocScrutinizer | aegis is not protecting the user, it's not even designed to be able to do this |
| 01:45.10 | djszapi | so you are asking the same questions I did one and half a year ago |
| 01:45.24 | djszapi | macmaN: internal development is not visible of course |
| 01:45.33 | macmaN | i would definitely not be wasting your night if i could actually read a web page somewhere |
| 01:45.58 | DocScrutinizer | au contraire, aegis is a htreat to users, only thing it protects is the PLATFORM security, for "third party apps that need a secure platform" - secure *from you* |
| 01:46.06 | djszapi | there is nothing for your to read apart from trust me |
| 01:46.10 | djszapi | you* |
| 01:46.35 | djszapi | ranting every single day, every single hour about open mode make people frustrated including me |
| 01:46.49 | djszapi | since it is just so far from reality. |
| 01:47.21 | macmaN | that is a side effect of people being used to different approaches |
| 01:47.26 | DocScrutinizer | it is incredibly easy to write malware that spies on you, without aegis compöaining. And it's even more easy to write malware that exploits aegis to brick your device |
| 01:47.27 | djszapi | and why not spend the time with real reality questions ? |
| 01:47.44 | DocScrutinizer | complaining* |
| 01:47.51 | djszapi | I personally prefer the real problems for solivngs. |
| 01:47.53 | djszapi | solvings* |
| 01:47.55 | macmaN | sure. but the answers are "no cant be done" because platsec forbids it.. |
| 01:47.58 | djszapi | that have solutions. |
| 01:48.20 | djszapi | that is a completely valid answer |
| 01:48.22 | djszapi | move on... |
| 01:48.46 | rzr | djszapi: have u seen that video i've paste upper ? |
| 01:48.57 | rzr | pasted |
| 01:49.15 | djszapi | no sorry, I do not have for watching videos right now |
| 01:49.19 | djszapi | time* |
| 01:49.21 | rzr | that one is short |
| 01:49.24 | rzr | 5min |
| 01:49.27 | rzr | not more |
| 01:49.30 | macmaN | perhaps i will. perhaps i put some effort into finding out more. depends on what i calculate to be potential profitability to me. |
| 01:49.36 | rzr | take it on your irc time :) |
| 01:49.39 | DocScrutinizer | ooh a video... wait, I got one too |
| 01:49.55 | rzr | http://ia600200.us.archive.org/12/items/Trusted-Computing/Trusted-Computing_LAFKON_HIGH.ogv |
| 01:50.10 | DocScrutinizer | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5115609628556940516&q=trusted+computing# |
| 01:50.26 | djszapi | oh yes, I saw that video like 2 years ago |
| 01:50.31 | djszapi | or maybe a bit more |
| 01:50.32 | rzr | docScrutinizeryou freedom hater |
| 01:50.38 | djszapi | quite silly tbh :D |
| 01:50.49 | M4rtinK | google video still works ? |
| 01:51.00 | rzr | not on harmattan :) |
| 01:51.21 | rzr | my link is will show on fennec on harmattan :) |
| 01:51.40 | rzr | -is |
| 01:51.45 | djszapi | so my summar is this before off to my work: Ranting about changing Nokia policies every single hour makes no sense |
| 01:52.00 | djszapi | dealing with problems that can be solved makes completely sense |
| 01:52.06 | djszapi | summary* |
| 01:52.07 | macmaN | djszapi is any of the platsec people blogging? harmattan developer blog was just recently opened. what would it cost one of the guys to educate us with some reasoning about the choice. |
| 01:52.09 | djszapi | good night guys |
| 01:52.20 | M4rtinK | rzr: shame mobile Opera currently does not support HTML5 vide/audio at all |
| 01:52.36 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp) |
| 01:54.39 | macmaN | i should probably ask that directly from the maintainers of the lbog |
| 01:54.40 | macmaN | blog |
| 01:54.58 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: :-D now I got it |
| 01:55.27 | DocScrutinizer | rzr: added your *free* stuff under my former bookmark ;-) |
| 01:56.03 | rzr | I did the french subtitles |
| 01:56.05 | rzr | if it matters |
| 01:56.16 | rzr | I made ... |
| 01:56.20 | rzr | now i must sleep |
| 01:56.33 | rzr | my English need to be reloaded |
| 01:56.39 | M4rtinK | nice video :) |
| 01:56.45 | M4rtinK | quite spot on |
| 01:57.32 | rzr | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:57.34 | rzr | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:59.16 | rzr | bye |
| 01:59.20 | M4rtinK | gn :) |
| 01:59.33 | rZr | gn |
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| 02:12.48 | macmaN | ok put up a request for platform sec article on n9 dev blog http://goo.gl/uKbCE |
| 02:13.04 | macmaN | hopefully lavonious will see the comments on the first article |
| 02:13.23 | SpeedEvil | A hell of a lot of the fundamental problems could have been averted by more docs. |
| 02:14.30 | SpeedEvil | 'these are the things you can't do' This is why. |
| 02:14.55 | SpeedEvil | As otherwise technical questions get mixed with policy questions. |
| 02:15.19 | SpeedEvil | And 'can I x' instead of having a simple yes/no answer goes into an unproductive policy discussion. |
| 02:16.05 | M4rtinK | and maybe use-cases blocked by current platform security configuration ? |
| 02:17.53 | SpeedEvil | Yeah. |
| 02:18.21 | SpeedEvil | And what putting the device in 'open' mode actually means to existing software on the platform. |
| 02:19.04 | M4rtinK | USB Host, pulseudio improvements, FUSE, drivers missing from Kernel, just from top of my head |
| 02:19.05 | djszapi | 04:16 < M4rtinK> and maybe use-cases blocked by current platform security configuration ? -> makes no sense |
| 02:19.15 | djszapi | since you cannot predict all the things. |
| 02:19.23 | M4rtinK | got that mixed |
| 02:19.29 | djszapi | way very bad approach. Imho, it should list what you can do, and that is done! |
| 02:19.46 | M4rtinK | of course you can't list wat your settings block |
| 02:19.50 | M4rtinK | *what |
| 02:19.51 | djszapi | who cares about usb host for instance inside nokia |
| 02:20.03 | djszapi | nobody, so how could we document that, if there is no interest in that ? |
| 02:20.05 | djszapi | it makes no sense |
| 02:20.33 | djszapi | 04:15 < SpeedEvil> And 'can I x' instead of having a simple yes/no answer goes into an unproductive policy discussion. |
| 02:20.40 | djszapi | same answer for this question since it is the same thing |
| 02:20.40 | M4rtinK | I agree its quite a minor usecase |
| 02:20.46 | djszapi | we cannot say y/n for things |
| 02:20.53 | djszapi | we can yes for what works, and that *is* there. |
| 02:21.14 | djszapi | so imho it is perfect. |
| 02:22.02 | M4rtinK | BTW, used usb host on N900 this evening to check out a nearby deadrop on my way home :) |
| 02:22.24 | djszapi | M4rtinK: you need own kernel for that on n900, it is not any different on N9 either ... |
| 02:22.43 | djszapi | also, you can use an avr chip for that anyway |
| 02:22.48 | M4rtinK | I agree that in this phase of the development cycle, I would be pretty wary of breaking something important |
| 02:23.23 | M4rtinK | and some usecases needing the open-mode are also quite minor |
| 02:23.23 | djszapi | M4rtinK: meh, gtk-fremantle build reservers the current workers... |
| 02:23.56 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: It is quite different. On the n900, if you use a different kernel, the rest of the platform continues to work. |
| 02:24.09 | M4rtinK | but on the other hand used by advanced users/developers, that quite literary move the platform forward |
| 02:24.13 | djszapi | same applies on N9. There is *no* difference |
| 02:24.20 | djszapi | also, *dejavu*, I told it many times previously. |
| 02:24.30 | djszapi | tested, worked oob |
| 02:24.55 | djszapi | M4rtinK: please stop repeating it all the way around |
| 02:24.55 | M4rtinK | well, I seem to remeber a thread reporting that it worked quite ok after just recompiling the kernel |
| 02:25.02 | SpeedEvil | djszapi: If you swap the kernel out, then aegis gets upset, and all of the existing account-based stuff goes read-only. |
| 02:25.03 | djszapi | it is not a hacker platform, period |
| 02:25.11 | SpeedEvil | It superficially seems to work, but doesn't. |
| 02:25.24 | SpeedEvil | Incoming messages, for example do not work. |
| 02:25.26 | djszapi | okay, sure you know better than us who tested it |
| 02:25.31 | SpeedEvil | (at least, based on reports) |
| 02:25.44 | SpeedEvil | Ok - if that's supposed to work - great - I've been misinformed. |
| 02:25.54 | djszapi | M4rtinK: this is the case when I give up, see ? Some external wants to know better than the internals who actually tested it out :) |
| 02:26.49 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: as I said, you can even use AVR chip without changing the kernel |
| 02:26.50 | SpeedEvil | And how do we know this? |
| 02:26.52 | djszapi | and that is the way of going |
| 02:27.03 | SpeedEvil | Sure - you know about the internal testing. |
| 02:27.08 | djszapi | SpeedEvil: told you many times really |
| 02:27.49 | SpeedEvil | Sorry for my misunderstanding. |
| 02:27.59 | djszapi | I told it many times on IRC, published on forums and so on. |
| 02:28.03 | djszapi | what else can I do more ? |
| 02:28.05 | M4rtinK | djszapi: weird, I don't remember triggering a rebuild - anyway, all the other builders are idle so it should be OK |
| 02:28.33 | djszapi | M4rtinK: not really, kdelibs would like to run paralel |
| 02:28.37 | djszapi | parallel* |
| 02:28.41 | djszapi | and imho, slower this way :p |
| 02:29.21 | djszapi | and I would say kdelibs should unfortunately build alone since it is a heavy stuff |
| 02:29.25 | M4rtinK | djszapi: I see 34 free slots, that should be enough even for KDE |
| 02:30.08 | djszapi | well, all I see is timeout during the build |
| 02:30.16 | DocScrutinizer | sorry to smash your dreams, but using open mode definitely inevitably will result in a possibly tainted rootfs and consequently: |
| 02:30.18 | DocScrutinizer | ~malf |
| 02:30.19 | infobot | from memory, malf is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg |
| 02:30.45 | DocScrutinizer | on next time you try to use "normal mode" aka secure mode |
| 02:30.48 | M4rtinK | hmm, seems to come from rzr's repo |
| 02:31.41 | djszapi | yes, and I do not see 34 free workers in that repository. |
| 02:31.56 | DocScrutinizer | that's why no aegis-on/off switch ever will appear from Nokia |
| 02:31.57 | M4rtinK | but the source files have not been changed |
| 02:32.25 | M4rtinK | djszapi: https://build.pub.meego.com/monitor ? |
| 02:33.27 | djszapi | that is not 34 ;) |
| 02:33.42 | djszapi | but either way, I do not understand that graph actually, how I need to read that |
| 02:34.01 | DocScrutinizer | that's because aegis has a conceptual failure: it doesn't actively block all possible threats like changing files in /etc, rather it *detects changed* files and goes "NANANA! please reflash, this system is tainted" |
| 02:34.09 | DocScrutinizer | it's too good you could say |
| 02:34.17 | djszapi | as for me it is weird scheduling 15% of the stuff is actually working, and the other 85% is idle. this is not what I would expect |
| 02:34.24 | djszapi | I would not expect idle resources. |
| 02:34.31 | djszapi | at least not in that big amount. |
| 02:35.39 | DocScrutinizer | or it was built with too little self-esteem so doesn'T trust in own capabilities to keep malware from changing things, and so resorts to brushing up the pieces after thing dropped and broke |
| 02:35.55 | M4rtinK | I did see once KDElibs eat all slots, so something seems to be broken now |
| 02:36.46 | DocScrutinizer | but then OTOH, see purpose of aegis: |
| 02:36.48 | DocScrutinizer | ~aegis |
| 02:36.49 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 02:38.15 | DocScrutinizer | for "making sure that the platform meets the requirements" it isn't sufficient to block malware realtime, you also have to check system integrity from a possible open mode yesterday, and that'S what aegis does and what really pisses us all off |
| 02:38.47 | DocScrutinizer | while we yet have to see those third party apps that "require a safe execution environment" |
| 02:39.34 | DocScrutinizer | I mean we not even have flash that might get "recorded" when somebody was able to mess with the video streaming hw and tap it |
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| 02:40.10 | DocScrutinizer | not to mention any DRM content that could playback on device |
| 02:41.04 | djszapi | M4rtinK: just as usual ;-) |
| 02:41.09 | DocScrutinizer | actually Nokia assured several times aegis was NOT about DRM. So wtf *are* those third party apps then, and why the heck would they "need a safe execution environment"? |
| 02:44.26 | M4rtinK | gn :) |
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| 02:47.55 | SpeedEvil | sighs. |
| 02:48.23 | DocScrutinizer | aegis is the solution to a problem that doesn't exist, and thus nobody will miss it if it ever would vanish |
| 02:48.40 | SpeedEvil | meltimi |
| 02:48.43 | SpeedEvil | Or whateve it was. |
| 02:48.51 | DocScrutinizer | melt-me yes |
| 02:50.33 | DocScrutinizer | I guess melt-me will be based on bsd and closed, so they can do whatever they want. If not, then they are outright silly over at Nokia, as there's no use in FOSS and GPLed sw when you then try to lock it down again as much as possible, Better use sth you don't have to disclose first instance |
| 02:52.43 | DocScrutinizer | HARM + aegis is an inherently schizoid concept |
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| 02:53.08 | DocScrutinizer | wb GeneralAntilles |
| 02:53.18 | GeneralAntilles | Hooray for updates. |
| 02:53.26 | DocScrutinizer | o.O |
| 02:54.55 | GeneralAntilles | Damn the reboots, though. |
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| 05:41.21 | djszapi | rZr you completely broke the kdelibs and many other parallel build |
| 05:41.41 | djszapi | could you please wait for fundamental package update henceforth please ? |
| 05:41.53 | djszapi | you updated openssl without waiting for packages to finish the build |
| 05:42.02 | djszapi | and openssl triggers almost everything to rebuild |
| 05:42.07 | djszapi | I am not happy about it |
| 05:42.29 | djszapi | kdelibs was building for many hours, already after 1 day continous try. |
| 05:43.10 | iekku | morning |
| 05:43.17 | djszapi | and the updated openssl is still old as hell |
| 05:43.33 | djszapi | so if you update, you should do it some not many years old version |
| 05:45.28 | djszapi | not sure it was openssl since that building is happening now. It may have been some even more fundamental package. |
| 05:47.05 | djszapi | X-Fade: Is it a known bug only 5% of the workers work ? https://build.pub.meego.com/monitor |
| 05:56.03 | gabriel9 | morning |
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| 08:08.35 | Anssi138 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaOnVago88g |
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| 08:44.27 | Nirkus | Anssi138: so, n9 is the new macintosh? :) |
| 08:49.20 | Anssi138 | Nirkus, i have to agree with that one, it looks lot like that classic mac advert :) |
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| 09:16.44 | Nirkus | :) |
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| 09:18.51 | Nirkus | as we got started on the n9 anyway.. just got one to play around, any pointers on where to find real documentation instead of the how to move your finger on the display ones? for starters, i am trying to find a terminal and ssh app.. |
| 09:19.35 | SpeedEvil | settings -> something, and enable dev-mode |
| 09:19.53 | SpeedEvil | Also all the subsequent apps that appear in that menu once you reboot |
| 09:20.01 | SpeedEvil | And I thoght the shell was there anyway |
| 09:20.02 | SpeedEvil | $ |
| 09:20.30 | Nirkus | ah, ok...found that developer mode switch but no doc on what it actually doees |
| 09:21.27 | SpeedEvil | It enables certain packages, including ssh |
| 09:21.51 | Nirkus | so it does enable the smart in smartphone? :) |
| 09:22.42 | SpeedEvil | It depends. |
| 09:23.02 | SpeedEvil | ~aegis |
| 09:23.02 | infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif |
| 09:23.10 | SpeedEvil | Some of this may be inaccurate. |
| 09:26.05 | petteri | i think eagis is quite neat system |
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| 09:27.15 | SpeedEvil | In concept, yes. |
| 09:27.38 | SpeedEvil | In execution, it misses significant point, as it's not a user-security solution. |
| 09:27.47 | SpeedEvil | It's a platform security. |
| 09:28.01 | petteri | how so? |
| 09:29.08 | Nirkus | SpeedEvil: thanks, will read through that... but my employer may see this as a little OT :D so, later today |
| 09:30.47 | SpeedEvil | I think the concept is an interesting one, and potentially valueable from a user-security, and a community software POV. |
| 09:31.09 | SpeedEvil | But the permissions are not fine-grained enough, and on occasion are ridiculous. |
| 09:32.14 | SpeedEvil | For example, it's possible to flash the camera flash with no credentials, yet it's utterly impossible to ever get the credential to tell the system daemon to flash the notification LED in your own pattern. |
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| 09:33.43 | SpeedEvil | Aegis had a point when it was to be in the next billion nokia smartphones, not so much now. |
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| 09:34.44 | petteri | i haven't run to any problems my self yet. For me the concept seems really nice. It solves the problems that I have encoutered using linux on desktop for years (or tries to solve, as there may be bugs :)) |
| 09:35.03 | petteri | SpeedEvil: you know that is not used for the next billion? |
| 09:35.18 | SpeedEvil | Meltimi you mean? |
| 09:35.31 | petteri | yes |
| 09:35.39 | SpeedEvil | I meant it was designed at a point in time, when it was expected it would take over from symbian. |
| 09:35.52 | SpeedEvil | Not that it would be in meltimi. |
| 09:36.24 | petteri | ok, i had the imporession that melteni is maemo 7 for dummy phones |
| 09:36.40 | petteri | impression |
| 09:38.53 | SpeedEvil | yes. |
| 09:38.54 | SpeedEvil | Ish |
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| 10:26.30 | ZogG_laptop | =( |
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| 10:53.53 | djszapi | X-Fade: most of them are struggling: https://build.pub.meego.com/project/monitor?arch_armv7el=1&building=1&defaults=0&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan&repo_MeeGo_1_2_Harmattan_Maemo_org_MeeGo_1_2_Harmattan_standard=1 |
| 10:54.24 | djszapi | they are just teh consequence of a blocked rebuild. Some underneath dependency were changed probably. If the worked previously, what can go wrong with them :/ |
| 10:54.35 | djszapi | is the c-obs supposed to handle that many packages simultanuously ? |
| 10:54.59 | X-Fade | djszapi: It will work out eventually. |
| 10:55.15 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: ping, finally |
| 10:55.28 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: ponged you yesterday :) |
| 10:55.57 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: didn't see it thru log or maybe i had terrible timeouts =\ |
| 10:56.55 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: i have tons of questions about apps formeego |
| 10:57.00 | ZogG_laptop | and proposals |
| 10:57.13 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Good, good. |
| 10:57.21 | ZogG_laptop | i wonder if there is place to post it |
| 10:57.38 | ZogG_laptop | and i mean not forum but more kinda bug tracker |
| 10:57.38 | gabriel9 | we could make some place :) |
| 10:58.33 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: btw apps in client =! apps on thru web and as i installed one, no icon is showen, and lunch does nothing =) just tried now |
| 10:58.45 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: For the site, we currently use this ourselves: https://github.com/nemein/com_meego_packages/issues |
| 10:59.07 | ZogG_laptop | i want to post propasal about testing and about deprecation/mainataining |
| 10:59.42 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: im not talking about packages, i'm talking about client and system itself |
| 10:59.43 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Shall I start a thread about Testing on talk? |
| 10:59.47 | djszapi | X-Fade sorry, but what do you mean ? |
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| 11:00.28 | djszapi | from what I can see, most of them are just worker wasters. |
| 11:00.44 | ZogG_laptop | or it is for client =) |
| 11:00.59 | djszapi | or maybe, they do not have free workers ? |
| 11:01.07 | djszapi | but why not logging that properly then instead of a mysterious nothing ? |
| 11:01.41 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Ok, you need to use more words. Go ahead, explain it :) |
| 11:04.48 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: issue i posted or ideas? |
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| 11:05.34 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: first of all i think we do need configuration. |
| 11:05.47 | ZogG_laptop | as we would have it we should add testng mode |
| 11:05.57 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: I really do not know what to make of your issue there :) |
| 11:06.04 | ZogG_laptop | testing mode would show apps for testing or version for testiing |
| 11:06.15 | jabis | rZr: ping |
| 11:06.16 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: It does. |
| 11:06.33 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: But one topic at a time. |
| 11:06.48 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: I can not parse the proposal you typed here: https://github.com/nemein/com_meego_packages/issues/36 |
| 11:07.31 | ZogG_laptop | for example - X-Fade the UI is not desinged sace smart |
| 11:07.56 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: What does that mean? |
| 11:08.03 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: ok , sorry had a call so last sentences is actually makes no sence |
| 11:08.13 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: when i go in to app |
| 11:08.27 | ZogG_laptop | i see the black area with screenshots and icon and name |
| 11:08.38 | ZogG_laptop | and stars as well |
| 11:08.42 | ZogG_laptop | and description under |
| 11:09.08 | ZogG_laptop | so screenshot looks small cause of icon and stars taking space |
| 11:09.22 | ZogG_laptop | i think the screenshot area should be separeted |
| 11:09.52 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You can enlarge the screenshot by clicking on it. (Although we have a bug there) |
| 11:10.20 | djszapi | https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=rzr&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan -> sorry, but what is this ? Can we just remove ? |
| 11:10.24 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: didn't work last time as well why would i want to enlarge it one by one? |
| 11:10.32 | ZogG_laptop | i want to scroll thru them |
| 11:10.52 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: u need to see how it works in installoous/cydia/app store |
| 11:10.59 | ZogG_laptop | for the screenshots |
| 11:11.45 | ZogG_laptop | it's really more nice, the affet of going around with screenshots we have is nice but it's useless then if i need to enlarge one by one |
| 11:12.52 | ZogG_laptop | maybe preview should be small with one two screnshot but screenshots should be full scrensize (i mean my phone from cliennt big) |
| 11:13.14 | X-Fade | We can play with the size a bit, that is no big deal. |
| 11:13.45 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: it would be nicer if i would make kinda mockup as i see it more effective |
| 11:13.59 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: and you would decide if i was wrong or write =) |
| 11:14.12 | ZogG_laptop | as well about testing mode, i have an idea |
| 11:15.08 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: It is qml, the source is out there. You can play with it if you want? |
| 11:15.10 | ZogG_laptop | if you enable testinf mode you can see apps in testing and testing versions (if app doesn have stable as well) |
| 11:15.31 | *** join/#harmattan jluisn (~quassel@187.115.172.24) |
| 11:15.39 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: di'm not a coder =( |
| 11:15.55 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: anyway back to testing |
| 11:16.00 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Well mockups would work too. |
| 11:16.26 | ZogG_laptop | i think client should install only stable apps thru repos |
| 11:16.40 | ZogG_laptop | and tessting apps thru simple download |
| 11:16.52 | ZogG_laptop | i'll explaine myself |
| 11:16.58 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Problem is that you then don't get aegis credentials. |
| 11:17.05 | ZogG_laptop | for example there is foo-bar 1.1 and it's stable |
| 11:17.17 | ZogG_laptop | it shows me 1.1 in client |
| 11:17.41 | ZogG_laptop | if i do enable test mode it adds test version 1.2 e.g. |
| 11:17.54 | ZogG_laptop | but it wouldn't update app |
| 11:18.05 | X-Fade | That is how it works now? |
| 11:18.07 | ZogG_laptop | as repo of testing wouldn't be syncing |
| 11:18.24 | ZogG_laptop | but in client i would be able to install it |
| 11:18.28 | X-Fade | Sure. |
| 11:19.07 | ZogG_laptop | or... i can turn on trust on testing for this app and it would push notifications |
| 11:19.38 | ZogG_laptop | or install it will update |
| 11:19.57 | X-Fade | Install will update it. |
| 11:20.17 | ZogG_laptop | and about deprecated, i bet there would be apps that devs would left it should say that they are deprecated |
| 11:20.29 | X-Fade | The client sees apps in Testing as different apps when in testing mode. |
| 11:20.34 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: that's the problem if it would update |
| 11:21.06 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Why, the user clicked on install? |
| 11:21.33 | ZogG_laptop | for example i want to test only foo-bar but if you say it would update it would udate all apps in stable that have greater version in testing |
| 11:21.50 | X-Fade | It will never automatically update. |
| 11:22.00 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: are you familiar with gentoo and overlays? |
| 11:22.08 | X-Fade | you, will always have to click on something for that one app to update. |
| 11:22.22 | X-Fade | harmattan has no automatic update |
| 11:22.27 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: oh, than it's working as i see it =) |
| 11:22.52 | X-Fade | if you disable testing, the updates will also just go away. |
| 11:23.14 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: so actually client can't make update all? |
| 11:23.23 | ZogG_laptop | i got lost |
| 11:23.23 | X-Fade | It will, when you tell it to. |
| 11:23.33 | X-Fade | But it won't automatically. |
| 11:23.45 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: oh thati understand |
| 11:24.02 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: but if i do udate all it would udate all apps right? |
| 11:24.02 | X-Fade | So you have the power to mess things up yourself :) |
| 11:24.22 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: if you use the package manager and use update all then yes. |
| 11:24.34 | X-Fade | But then you get yourself into that mess. |
| 11:24.44 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: that's what i'm talking about |
| 11:24.50 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: we can prevent it |
| 11:24.56 | X-Fade | No, we can't. |
| 11:25.16 | X-Fade | Single package downloads don't work, because you don't get the right aegis credentials. |
| 11:25.17 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: the update would work only on stable versions |
| 11:26.05 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: ok i'll explaine it to you other way |
| 11:26.09 | X-Fade | Just because you have a gun, it doesn't mean you have to aim it at your foot. |
| 11:26.18 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: are you familiur with gentoo and portage? |
| 11:26.31 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: That does not matter. |
| 11:26.40 | ZogG_laptop | updating app by app is not a solution |
| 11:26.45 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: I know what you are trying to do and I'm telling you aegis. |
| 11:26.51 | X-Fade | notice.. aegis |
| 11:27.14 | ZogG_laptop | i want to test certain apps but if it would mess the whole thing, i wouldn't so who would test if noone wants to mess ? =) |
| 11:27.36 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: i don't understand how aegis would prevent me |
| 11:27.40 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: If you enable testing, use the client to install an app and disable testing, I see no problem. |
| 11:28.01 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: We will have an aegis policy giving the *repo* certain credentials. |
| 11:28.29 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: that's my point, it just no need in turn on/off testing that's it |
| 11:28.44 | X-Fade | So users won't have to allow untrused repos. |
| 11:29.08 | X-Fade | I really don't see the problem. |
| 11:29.10 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: you didn't get me |
| 11:29.35 | ZogG_laptop | app would work with stable versions repo only |
| 11:29.55 | ZogG_laptop | that has all persimission and aegis if you said you can get iit for apps.formeego.org |
| 11:29.58 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: I think what you really want is a switch in the client, which does add and remove the repo. |
| 11:30.16 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: no i don't want that switch |
| 11:30.21 | *** part/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp) |
| 11:30.48 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Ok, so you have an app which uses GRP::video. |
| 11:30.51 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: the stable would have repo right? so even from harmattan app manager i can update |
| 11:31.09 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: This is in stable and gets the credential from there. |
| 11:31.19 | *** join/#harmattan mairas (mairas@nat/nokia/x-misyrxnbecehplfb) |
| 11:31.21 | ZogG_laptop | so basiclly client only adds apps.formeego.org/stable |
| 11:31.27 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: No you want to download a single file for testing. |
| 11:31.33 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Now the app doesn't work. |
| 11:32.04 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: so it's jsut official community repo right and it works like other repos |
| 11:32.20 | ZogG_laptop | but for testing-community we wouldn't use repo at all |
| 11:32.25 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: But we will have more ceredentials. |
| 11:32.45 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Then you need to ask everybody who wants to test to go to developer mode. |
| 11:32.51 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: That is no solution. |
| 11:33.14 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: but how we would test apps than, i don't get it |
| 11:33.31 | ZogG_laptop | i think testers should be people who knows what they do |
| 11:33.46 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Then they should not click on update all. |
| 11:34.05 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Really, you are making it more complicated than needed :) |
| 11:34.16 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: so if i have 200 apps you want me to update one by one? |
| 11:34.29 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You can only test one app at a time, right? |
| 11:34.51 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: And after you have done testing, you just disable testing? |
| 11:35.06 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: maybe we are talking about different testing thing, i'm talking about stable/unstable versions |
| 11:35.32 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: We have this workflow: your home project -> Testing -> Stable |
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| 11:35.37 | ZogG_laptop | and to understand if it's working right and doesn't mess your phone you need ore than just once turn it on |
| 11:35.59 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: So you can play with the app all you want in your home, when you think it is ok, you send it to testing. |
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| 11:36.22 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: exactly, so if i want to test new mega-fart-app to vote for pushing it for stable |
| 11:36.26 | ZogG_laptop | how does it workk? |
| 11:37.00 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You push it to Testing. |
| 11:37.24 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: There people can do: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Apps/Community_QA |
| 11:37.35 | melle | Hi all, does anyone know what the 'swype for fast typiong' functionality is which is supposed to be in PR1.1? Is it related to the android swipe functionality? |
| 11:37.37 | *** join/#harmattan milot (~Milot@46.99.251.4) |
| 11:37.39 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: if you heard the story about bumblee(optmus on linux) deleting /usr/ dir caue of extra space in script you would understand that sometimes author can just miss something and it would mess up |
| 11:38.13 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Sure, but that is the risk you take when you want to test something. |
| 11:38.21 | matrixx | melle: it's Swype, like in: http://www.swype.com/ |
| 11:38.22 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Like the notice says. |
| 11:38.34 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: ok, all i asked is to keep cleint the same and work as community repo with aegis permisions |
| 11:38.43 | matrixx | melle: can be enabled from settings iirc |
| 11:38.44 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: And testing will ensure that end-users won't have that problem. |
| 11:38.47 | melle | matrixx: can't find an option to get it to work |
| 11:39.23 | ZogG_laptop | but all i want is to add to client to check if there is unstable version and just show the link for it, that's all |
| 11:39.23 | melle | nvrmind, got it |
| 11:39.25 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Can't parse that again. Can you explain? |
| 11:39.27 | melle | matrixx: thanks |
| 11:39.29 | matrixx | melle: great := |
| 11:39.31 | matrixx | :) |
| 11:39.47 | melle | for future ref: it's under settings > time and language (obviously :P) |
| 11:40.21 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: stable apps would work like the official harmattan client, same their and here just community repo right? |
| 11:40.41 | *** join/#harmattan mairas (mairas@nat/nokia/x-vtrcelbsjgtwfkui) |
| 11:41.09 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You mean store? |
| 11:41.22 | ZogG_laptop | so if i do global update doesn't matter from where it updates stable things only so no warries and no need for dev mode |
| 11:41.29 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: yes like store |
| 11:41.52 | ZogG_laptop | or pack maanager |
| 11:41.55 | ZogG_laptop | doesn't matter |
| 11:41.58 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Where you need to visit all your 200 apps every time to check if there is an update? |
| 11:42.24 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: no updates pushed thru notifications? |
| 11:42.32 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Not in store. |
| 11:42.39 | ZogG_laptop | idiotic |
| 11:42.58 | ZogG_laptop | who made this one store =))) |
| 11:43.04 | ZogG_laptop | epic fail =) |
| 11:43.07 | ZogG_laptop | anyway |
| 11:43.19 | X-Fade | But we will have updates as we are a proper repo. |
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| 11:43.53 | ZogG_laptop | EXACTLY |
| 11:44.01 | ZogG_laptop | that's what i don't want to change |
| 11:45.01 | ZogG_laptop | all i want to add to client the option for client to check not thru repo but client itself if there is test version of certain package |
| 11:45.13 | ZogG_laptop | and proovide download thru web link |
| 11:45.16 | ZogG_laptop | that's it |
| 11:46.08 | ZogG_laptop | it will show like - you have 1.1 \n latest - 1.2 - update n\ testing - 1.3 - test it \n\ |
| 11:46.38 | ZogG_laptop | so the testing version would be made not with repo |
| 11:46.48 | ZogG_laptop | but client of server |
| 11:46.53 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: But then the app won't run and you can't update it. |
| 11:47.02 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: As it comes from a different package domain. |
| 11:47.48 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: u don't get me at all man |
| 11:47.55 | ZogG_laptop | =) |
| 11:48.03 | ZogG_laptop | why it would b different domain? |
| 11:48.06 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You can't install apps that come from a different package domain. |
| 11:48.28 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: domain in these terms is repo signed by a certain key. |
| 11:48.48 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: As soon as you download a deb directly from the web it is _unsigned_ |
| 11:49.06 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: And thus is not given the credentials. |
| 11:49.18 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: you saying to keep only stable in repo, that means to make push for stable really hard |
| 11:49.26 | ZogG_laptop | i mean to have 2 repos stale and unstable |
| 11:49.32 | ZogG_laptop | that client woould use only stable |
| 11:50.02 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You want 2 repos, but the client not be able to switch? |
| 11:50.06 | ZogG_laptop | and server would notify client if there is greater version in unstable and show me just a link of it and ask if i really want to installl it? |
| 11:50.24 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: And how would you install the app then? |
| 11:50.26 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: i want 2 repos but client using only stable |
| 11:51.02 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: in developer mode as i want to be tester |
| 11:51.26 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: That is unacceptable and far worse than enabling the testing repo. |
| 11:51.42 | ZogG_laptop | i just don't want to test appp t google for project home nd search for deb and dependisies |
| 11:51.50 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Also, you won't be notified about a stable update after that. |
| 11:52.38 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: gentoo's portage is much better than any binary packages i can see it now clearly =) |
| 11:53.18 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Work with what you have, don't waste time on telling other things are better. As you can't change it anyway :) |
| 11:54.42 | ZogG_laptop | didn't know it was impossible |
| 11:54.47 | ZogG_laptop | what can i do? |
| 11:55.25 | X-Fade | Think about ways to make the good things outweigh the bad things? |
| 11:56.41 | ZogG_laptop | that's was my purpose |
| 11:57.32 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: ok and if we add -testing to all testing apps? so it would be installed as separete app? |
| 11:58.04 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You have to understand that the app itself doesn't install packages. |
| 11:58.07 | ZogG_laptop | so it would keep stable unchaged? |
| 11:58.09 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: That is packagemanager. |
| 11:59.21 | ZogG_laptop | clien is kinda packmanager =) |
| 11:59.28 | X-Fade | The client only lists data and then tells the package manager service to install it. |
| 12:00.04 | ZogG_laptop | but OBS is for building packages, can't we add test flag that would change the package to testing-package? |
| 12:00.20 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Why would you need to do that? |
| 12:00.34 | ZogG_laptop | ok i'm developer |
| 12:00.42 | ZogG_laptop | i made un update fr my up |
| 12:01.00 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: You want to have the stable app and an experimental app installed side-by-side? |
| 12:01.07 | ZogG_laptop | but i want it to be tested before it's proven to be stable |
| 12:01.10 | ZogG_laptop | how do ii do that? |
| 12:01.30 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Tested by whom? |
| 12:01.31 | ZogG_laptop | i want people to test it |
| 12:01.48 | ZogG_laptop | by users who want to help me to push it to stable |
| 12:02.02 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Then just push you app to Testing? |
| 12:02.05 | ZogG_laptop | like in maemo we had no eagis so we had test repo |
| 12:02.14 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: We have it now too? |
| 12:02.14 | ZogG_laptop | X-Fade: and who test and how? |
| 12:02.22 | X-Fade | It is the same as extras-testing? |
| 12:02.39 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Check that link I pasted? |
| 12:06.17 | ZogG_laptop | hmm i have it enalebd =) |
| 12:10.08 | ZogG_laptop | but still i think it's too complicated |
| 12:10.23 | ZogG_laptop | to enable testing =\ |
| 12:10.58 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Yes, that is why I said we needed a switch inside the app. |
| 12:11.00 | ZogG_laptop | it's pitty deb repos don't have mask flags |
| 12:11.09 | ZogG_laptop | to mark it stable unstable |
| 12:11.42 | ZogG_laptop | per app or globaly |
| 12:12.21 | ZogG_laptop | btw i can't see that 4 apps in client |
| 12:12.25 | ZogG_laptop | only unstable apps |
| 12:12.51 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: Uninstall testing enabler. |
| 12:13.24 | ZogG_laptop | i can see both now right? |
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| 12:19.01 | ZogG_laptop | i can't* |
| 12:19.18 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: No, one or the other. |
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| 12:24.10 | ZogG_laptop | =( |
| 12:30.28 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: At least that makes it more clear that you are in testing. |
| 12:30.43 | X-Fade | ZogG_laptop: But as said, we need a switch. And time. |
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| 12:43.11 | Stecchino | anyone know where I can find a complete doc for tracker ontologies? http://developer.gnome.org/ontology/unstable/ has broken <img> entries to critical stuff |
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| 13:04.54 | corecode | hi |
| 13:06.11 | dm8tbr | corecode: works for me just fine. next! |
| 13:06.28 | corecode | does it? |
| 13:06.34 | corecode | :) |
| 13:06.42 | dm8tbr | corecode: search the channel logs for mc-tool |
| 13:08.25 | corecode | muchas gracias |
| 13:08.48 | corecode | gabble also works then for voice? |
| 13:08.58 | dm8tbr | haven't tried |
| 13:09.12 | corecode | ok |
| 13:09.30 | corecode | what telepathy-gabble version is included? |
| 13:09.50 | dm8tbr | dpkg -l? |
| 13:10.00 | corecode | i don't have the handset yet |
| 13:10.06 | corecode | but yes, that would have been my try |
| 13:10.15 | corecode | because fremantle has an old version that doesn't work with current google talk anymore |
| 13:11.55 | dm8tbr | 0.12.6+blablabla |
| 13:12.30 | corecode | thanks |
| 13:12.33 | corecode | that's good |
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| 13:42.24 | melle | Hi guys, question about swype again... I have enabled it (time and languages > enable swype), but i can't seem to use it when composing messages... Did anyone figure out how to get this to work? |
| 13:43.30 | mgedmin | swipe horizontally across the keyboards to select between swype and "normal" input methods |
| 13:43.39 | mgedmin | or use the same control panel to make swype default |
| 13:44.09 | melle | mgedmin: got it! thx! |
| 13:44.10 | dm8tbr | swiping the keyboard 'layouts' is tricky in my experience |
| 13:44.30 | melle | dm8tbr: yeah, it seems it worked better before the update... |
| 13:44.59 | SpeedEvil | is quite unsure of the benefits of skype over more hardware buttons. |
| 13:45.03 | mgedmin | swiping is tricky |
| 13:45.05 | SpeedEvil | swype |
| 13:45.14 | SpeedEvil | swipe |
| 13:45.16 | SpeedEvil | err |
| 13:45.27 | SpeedEvil | is terminally confused, and has no clue anymore. |
| 13:45.32 | melle | xD |
| 13:45.46 | melle | I'm going to give it a try for a week |
| 13:45.48 | SpeedEvil | just woke up. |
| 13:45.52 | SpeedEvil | Oooh. |
| 13:46.02 | SpeedEvil | wonders if his other platform does swype |
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| 13:47.39 | mgedmin | have you tried swiping while reading in bed? with the device at various random orientations? with the vkb open? |
| 13:47.43 | mgedmin | it's insane |
| 13:47.50 | mgedmin | I never know which direction will close my app |
| 13:47.55 | SpeedEvil | mgedmin: yes. |
| 13:48.07 | SpeedEvil | mgedmin: For added fun - portrait or landscape only apps. |
| 13:48.07 | mgedmin | (apparently it's the direction where the accelerometer points down) |
| 13:48.18 | merlin1991 | yep |
| 13:48.27 | merlin1991 | one reason why I disabled that swipe down to close thingy |
| 13:48.28 | melle | i think that's pretty clear actually... |
| 13:48.36 | mgedmin | merlin1991, can't do that in PR1.1 |
| 13:48.41 | mgedmin | well, unless you install extra software |
| 13:48.43 | merlin1991 | I kept closing apps swiping from the visual side |
| 13:48.44 | w00t | you can, install swipemanager |
| 13:48.45 | mgedmin | which I should maybe do |
| 13:48.59 | mgedmin | thank you for reminding me about the name of that extra software :) |
| 13:49.05 | melle | swipemanager is nice, but only for sliding left and right... |
| 13:49.13 | merlin1991 | isn't it in some config file wich one can edit? |
| 13:49.29 | melle | merlin1991: you can install swipemanager, run it once and uninstall it |
| 13:49.52 | merlin1991 | I can also ssh in vi the config file and be happy ;) |
| 13:51.46 | melle | merlin1991: if you have some extra time, and you're confident enough to keep the config file intact... ;) |
| 13:54.08 | merlin1991 | hm mcompsitor.conf does not look like the one mentioned in the old posts about swipe down |
| 13:54.18 | merlin1991 | melle: do you have it disabled? |
| 13:55.01 | melle | I have swipe-down enabled, swipe-left shows the menu, swipe-right shows the open tasks |
| 13:55.32 | DocScrutinizer | get true find |
| 13:55.41 | DocScrutinizer | change a setting |
| 13:55.48 | merlin1991 | could you pastebin your ~/.config/mcompositor/mcompsitor.conf ? |
| 13:55.54 | DocScrutinizer | find / -mtime -1 |
| 13:55.55 | melle | I think these settings reflect my mental model more... :) |
| 13:56.13 | melle | merlin1991: gimme a min |
| 13:56.39 | SpeedEvil | After playing with swipe for a few days, I think I preferred the n900, with the camera-button shortcut to the switcher |
| 13:57.12 | SpeedEvil | Maybe a hardware issue, but several times, it's killed stuff on false-swipes. |
| 13:57.12 | DocScrutinizer | definitely, SpeedEvil |
| 13:57.36 | melle | SpeedEvil: Yep, but what i miss most is the keyboard... |
| 13:57.41 | SpeedEvil | That too. |
| 13:57.51 | melle | Can't get used to texting on a display... |
| 13:58.08 | SpeedEvil | I recently somewhat defected, and have an android tablet - a cheap one as a gift. |
| 13:58.09 | melle | (That's why I'm trying Swype now...) |
| 13:58.19 | SpeedEvil | The voice input is surprisingly usable for some stuff. |
| 13:58.26 | DocScrutinizer | portrait vkbd is basically useless, by physical laws and screen real estate |
| 13:58.57 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: not with hands my size |
| 13:59.13 | merlin1991 | i can write on it quite fast |
| 13:59.35 | DocScrutinizer | I need like 3 min to enter wlan password |
| 13:59.55 | SpeedEvil | Mixed case is a problem |
| 14:01.38 | DocScrutinizer | honestly I'd prefer the usual 12key phone kbd with ABC on 2, DEF on 3 etc, over this portrait thing with its tiny buttons |
| 14:02.42 | DocScrutinizer | OTOH shell is worthless in landsacape mode as e.g with less you just see 2 (wrapped, so 4) lines of syslog at a time, rest of screen eaten by kbd |
| 14:04.22 | DocScrutinizer | even worse: I guess less will still think it has to scroll a "whole screen" worth of lines on hitting space, incl the invisible lines under kbd |
| 14:04.34 | *** join/#harmattan djszapi (~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp) |
| 14:04.52 | djszapi | X-Fade: how can it be 250 blocked packages again ? https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan |
| 14:04.52 | DocScrutinizer | I'm not sure about that, CBA to check |
| 14:04.53 | djszapi | someone is spamming our community repository or c-obs bug ? |
| 14:05.22 | djszapi | 1) someone is pushing core packages without any approvals from others 2) There is some bug in c-obs. |
| 14:06.08 | X-Fade | djszapi: libxml2? |
| 14:06.48 | djszapi | X-Fade right now that, but I think that was not the root cause. |
| 14:07.26 | djszapi | X-Fade: this has been happening for half a day, and I do not understand why everything gets rebuilt. I am not putting clearly in the community repository description, please do not push core packages without approvals. |
| 14:08.48 | Stskeeps | check osc jobhistory |
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| 14:09.25 | djszapi | okay. Edited the description: modulo approval of the others is a must have for pushing core packages in the future. |
| 14:09.38 | X-Fade | djszapi: It only triggers rebuilds like that when something really important changed. |
| 14:09.46 | djszapi | yep |
| 14:10.26 | X-Fade | So probably something libxml2 depends on. |
| 14:10.37 | djszapi | X-Fade: I think it even changed under libxml2 |
| 14:10.46 | djszapi | but yeah, that is the minimum layer of the change. |
| 14:11.13 | djszapi | X-Fade: can it not be a cross-worked "deadlock" ? |
| 14:11.17 | djszapi | worker* |
| 14:11.39 | *** join/#harmattan trx (~ns-team@93.87.57.41) |
| 14:11.48 | djszapi | Say, there were 38 jobs in parallel and some fundamental package of those got a worker for working really late.. so everything is starting again. |
| 14:12.27 | djszapi | does obs have this layer analyzes and prioritization according to that analyzes ? |
| 14:12.43 | djszapi | when a pending package gets a worker for building. |
| 14:12.44 | X-Fade | No, it doesn't start a build when a dependency isn't ready. |
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| 14:13.01 | X-Fade | You can see that with the blocked packages. |
| 14:13.06 | djszapi | so if a dependency is in the waiting queue, it realizes that ? |
| 14:13.07 | X-Fade | They wait on xml2. |
| 14:13.18 | djszapi | yes, but there are not full waiting queue |
| 14:13.25 | djszapi | I would like to make sure it is not a waiting queue issue |
| 14:14.03 | X-Fade | Nah, this is what OBS is good at. Look at human error first. |
| 14:14.12 | djszapi | http://paste.kde.org/147200/ -> this is the jobhistory, btw |
| 14:14.31 | djszapi | it happened this morning. |
| 14:14.37 | djszapi | and then almost everything got rebuilt, and again this |
| 14:15.15 | djszapi | meaning that my kdelibs was shut down after 4-5 hours build, and could not really get the chance to build again |
| 14:17.07 | X-Fade | It builds a tree of dependencies each time a build succeeds. |
| 14:18.08 | djszapi | is there an option for the c-obs to "lock" pushing for anybody ? |
| 14:18.24 | X-Fade | djszapi: Sure, remove them as maintainer? |
| 14:18.29 | djszapi | it would even be more ideal if it could be tied to a certain package build readyness |
| 14:18.32 | *** join/#harmattan hardaker (~hardaker@mail.hardakers.net) |
| 14:19.00 | djszapi | since interrupting kdelibs by 80% (4-5 hours build) is ... well :) |
| 14:19.33 | djszapi | X-Fade: I need to add them manually again |
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| 14:19.47 | djszapi | for every single such a situation. |
| 14:20.15 | X-Fade | djszapi: crashing or killed worker should not matter, it automatically gets rescheduled then? |
| 14:20.50 | djszapi | X-Fade yeah, if everything rebuilds, and then kdelibs can start it all over from the beginning again. |
| 14:21.14 | X-Fade | no |
| 14:21.31 | X-Fade | If a build gets interrupted, it just gets rescheduled. |
| 14:21.44 | X-Fade | it just moves to another worker. |
| 14:22.00 | djszapi | well, kdelibs did not build |
| 14:22.14 | djszapi | also, it would make sense to start it from the beginning if the dependency underneath changed. |
| 14:22.25 | X-Fade | It does that. |
| 14:22.48 | djszapi | yes, that is why this interruption needs to be prevented. |
| 14:22.49 | X-Fade | It looks at the complete dependency tree and determines which packages can be built in parallel. |
| 14:22.59 | djszapi | or there might be just some bug for the kdelibs case, why it did not build after all |
| 14:24.31 | djszapi | X-Fade: anyway, do you see anything from the history which caused the whole rebuild session for almost everything ? |
| 14:26.03 | X-Fade | djszapi: Did you change the project conf perhaps? |
| 14:26.34 | djszapi | nope |
| 14:26.43 | djszapi | I got soprano work last night |
| 14:26.59 | djszapi | and it built, kdelibs started to rebuild automatically since that depends on soprano |
| 14:27.09 | djszapi | and I just waited. Nothing on my side since last night (soprano push) |
| 14:27.25 | djszapi | we have the KDE Harmattan sprint tomorrow, but no built kdelibs yet :p |
| 14:27.42 | djszapi | before falling asleep, kdelibs wa saround 85% |
| 14:27.55 | djszapi | when I woke up, this whole blocking stage was happening, without proper kdelibs build. |
| 14:31.51 | djszapi | X-Fade: do the various projects share the same amount of workers, or does every single project have a dedicated number of workers ? |
| 14:32.17 | djszapi | am just wondering whether or not it would be better to push the kdelibs dependency hierarchy into my smaller personal project to get it built earlier. |
| 14:32.36 | X-Fade | djszapi: They all share the worker pool. |
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| 14:33.35 | djszapi | X-Fade: so the worked you get for your project is not guaranteed so it can happen I have just really few workers in my personal project, if other projects build heavily ? |
| 14:33.42 | djszapi | workers* |
| 14:34.41 | X-Fade | djszapi: everyone will get some work done when that happens. |
| 14:34.52 | *** join/#harmattan Natunen (nalle@213-186-240-19.bb.dnainternet.fi) |
| 14:35.12 | X-Fade | djszapi: For instance when you have 250 package building and I submit 1, then I will get my package built when one of the 250 has finished. |
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| 14:37.11 | djszapi | that sounds reasonable. |
| 14:37.27 | X-Fade | It tries to be fair. |
| 14:37.53 | X-Fade | But sometimes people can block it ofcourse. If you are building 60x kdelibs, then I have to wait a while. |
| 14:37.59 | djszapi | are there tricks to speed up the builds ? |
| 14:38.16 | djszapi | yeah, well what can I do ? :) |
| 14:38.36 | djszapi | kde frameworks will be modularized. |
| 14:38.40 | djszapi | but that is for future reference. |
| 14:39.14 | X-Fade | There isn't much you can do with large packages like that. We're experimenting with massively parallel builds on worker04. |
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| 14:39.19 | djszapi | anyway, I will become a monster if someone is pushing anything core. |
| 14:39.25 | X-Fade | Especially for Qt, webkit etc. |
| 14:39.59 | X-Fade | But that is still an experiment. |
| 14:40.49 | *** join/#harmattan razvanpetru (~razvan@188.26.180.191) |
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| 14:41.38 | djszapi | the problem will that, many packages are already building in parallel on their owns. |
| 14:41.41 | djszapi | be* |
| 14:42.54 | *** part/#harmattan razvanpetru (~razvan@188.26.180.191) |
| 14:51.27 | *** join/#harmattan Jaffa (~andrew@Maemo/community/contributor/Jaffa) |
| 14:56.06 | *** join/#harmattan razvanpetru (~razvan@188.26.180.191) |
| 14:56.18 | razvanpetru | did anyone else find that textarea is completely broken? |
| 14:56.45 | razvanpetru | if you enter lots of \n, it either hides the text, or overflows... |
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| 15:00.02 | hiemanshu | razvanpetru: in 1.1? yes |
| 15:00.16 | razvanpetru | 1.0 also :-/ |
| 15:00.29 | razvanpetru | how disappointing |
| 15:00.36 | hiemanshu | its worse in 1.1 |
| 15:01.01 | razvanpetru | any workarounds? |
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| 15:24.45 | faenil | good afternoon people |
| 15:24.53 | *** join/#harmattan M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 15:26.45 | djszapi | M4rtinK: could you please not push gtk-fremantle for a while ? |
| 15:26.59 | djszapi | M4rtinK: seems everything is getting rebuilt and I would like to avoid any pushings in the next one day |
| 15:32.30 | M4rtinK | djszapi: I'm not doing anything with it currently |
| 15:33.13 | M4rtinK | you are doing a complete rebuild of rzrs repo ? |
| 15:33.43 | djszapi | M4rtinK: I'd rather not, but something triggered that |
| 15:33.58 | M4rtinK | might be X-Fade upgrading OBS |
| 15:34.29 | M4rtinK | changings some of the internal stuff triggers complete rebuild of all repositories |
| 15:34.32 | X-Fade | Hey, don't blame me :) |
| 15:34.46 | X-Fade | I was asleep :) |
| 15:34.46 | djszapi | let us blame X-Fade :P :P |
| 15:34.46 | M4rtinK | so maybe rzr himself ? :) |
| 15:35.53 | M4rtinK | the ways of the OBS sheduler are undecipherable... :) |
| 15:39.38 | trx | X-Fade may i PM you? |
| 15:40.21 | X-Fade | trx: If it is so secret that it can't be said on this channel :) |
| 15:40.29 | trx | its not |
| 15:40.40 | trx | its about OBS account |
| 15:41.01 | X-Fade | trx: What is your meego.com username? |
| 15:41.07 | trx | trx |
| 15:41.13 | X-Fade | figures :) |
| 15:41.13 | trx | :) |
| 15:41.38 | X-Fade | trx: Should work now. |
| 15:41.50 | trx | X-Fade thanks |
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| 16:45.41 | KaIRC | loves having this shiny new N9 now - and waits for the MeeGo update to complete... will need to find out how to get all his data from fremantle to harmattan, then |
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| 16:51.52 | DocScrutinizer51 | suggets mass storage mode for general media and stuff, plus import/sync (after backup on source!) for contacts. For calendar I guess you're on your own |
| 16:52.00 | djszapi | M4rtinK: I am sorry, but I disable your gtk-fremantle for now |
| 16:52.07 | djszapi | I will enable it again when kdelibs is done |
| 16:52.14 | djszapi | we need kdelibs done by tomorrow |
| 16:52.52 | djszapi | also, why gtk2, and not gtk3 and vala ? |
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| 16:53.06 | M4rtinK | dependencies, dependencies, dependencies :D |
| 16:53.33 | M4rtinK | check out all the disabled packages in home:MartinK:harmattan |
| 16:53.56 | M4rtinK | I have first tried to build a more recent GTK2 version |
| 16:54.45 | djszapi | can you just eliminate the opt deps for now ? |
| 16:54.51 | M4rtinK | which unfortunately want thinks like more recent Cairo, Pango, Pixbuff, build tools, Gobject Introspection |
| 16:54.59 | djszapi | and escalate those later when a base is working ? |
| 16:55.04 | Stskeeps | welcome to distribution hell |
| 16:55.11 | M4rtinK | they are not optional unfortunately |
| 16:55.45 | M4rtinK | it also means editing a huge number of packages to downgrade build tools dependency numbers |
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| 16:56.27 | djszapi | M4rtinK: that is bad if gtk2 -> gtk3 introduced many new dependencies |
| 16:56.34 | M4rtinK | also, the GI stuff is needed for the Python bindings to work |
| 16:56.46 | M4rtinK | and it FRAGILE :D |
| 16:56.54 | M4rtinK | *its |
| 16:57.02 | djszapi | fragile in what sense ? |
| 16:57.35 | M4rtinK | the main GI package won't even compile |
| 16:57.48 | djszapi | sounds stable :) |
| 16:58.00 | M4rtinK | well, I might had it compile once, probably breaking it in the process |
| 16:58.35 | M4rtinK | because building the GI enabled versions of other packages would not work |
| 16:59.07 | djszapi | M4rtinK: is gtk3 ABI compatible to gtk2 ? |
| 16:59.10 | M4rtinK | btw, its using Python during the build process :) |
| 16:59.13 | M4rtinK | no idea |
| 16:59.50 | M4rtinK | ma navigation App uses a very limited subset of GTK |
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| 17:00.15 | M4rtinK | basically just Cairo for drawing the GUI, idle loop and text input |
| 17:00.49 | M4rtinK | so even an ancient GTK version is enough |
| 17:03.01 | djszapi | you will have a sort of hard time to publish your gtk app to ovi |
| 17:03.38 | M4rtinK | well, apps.formeego.com should be enough for the time being :) |
| 17:03.59 | djszapi | unknown origin... |
| 17:04.44 | M4rtinK | a proper QML+QtGraphicsView/QtOpenGL/Clutter is needed anyway |
| 17:04.52 | M4rtinK | *GUI |
| 17:05.09 | djszapi | you will lose all the posix capabilities, some tracker tokens, sso, root uid/gid/grp and so on |
| 17:05.28 | djszapi | I would not use QtOpenGL ... |
| 17:05.35 | djszapi | QtOpenGL is gone in Qt5... |
| 17:05.39 | M4rtinK | for kinetic scrolling, transitions, fluent map zooming, rotation, fake 3D, eye candy, etc. |
| 17:06.00 | M4rtinK | so what would you use ? |
| 17:06.37 | M4rtinK | I basically need more highlevel equivalent to SDL with Python bindings :) |
| 17:06.59 | djszapi | SDL bloeee :) |
| 17:07.37 | djszapi | M4rtinK: at any rate, I will enable gtk-fremantle when the kde stuff are done for the sprint, if you do not mind. |
| 17:08.10 | M4rtinK | well, this is what dwaradzyn does with it on N950: http://vimeo.com/32046349 |
| 17:08.34 | sivang | nre all |
| 17:08.53 | M4rtinK | djszapi: no problem - won't have time to work on it in the meantime anyway |
| 17:09.03 | djszapi | sivang o/ |
| 17:09.25 | sivang | hey djszapi :) |
| 17:09.27 | Sput | well well. time to prepare my trip to berlin |
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| 17:09.37 | Sput | hey sivang, djszapi, rest |
| 17:09.41 | djszapi | Sput: have a pleasant journey :) |
| 17:09.47 | sivang | oh people, you are so lucky to go to that sprint! |
| 17:09.50 | Sput | djszapi: I will, I hope :) |
| 17:09.52 | sivang | hey Sput |
| 17:09.56 | KaIRC | DocScrutinizer: I care mostly about contacts, ideally sms messages or such - general data is no problem in mass storage mode, of course |
| 17:10.19 | Sput | sivang: you're the same sivan I've hat lunch with at DS, right? |
| 17:10.23 | Sput | *had |
| 17:10.35 | djszapi | I will take 2 N9 and one N950 with me if anybody needs one :) |
| 17:10.54 | sivang | Sput: yes :) there is only one around KDE/Harmattan/Qt communities :) |
| 17:10.59 | Sput | thought so |
| 17:11.05 | Sput | so how's your Qt going? |
| 17:11.09 | sivang | djszapi: I want an N9 :-p |
| 17:11.43 | djszapi | sivang: desktop is dead, remember ? ;) |
| 17:11.48 | sivang | Sput: very good actually, I managed to make the googlemaps exampe to use proper GPS to pin point location. There is no buildable location based example currently available in Nokia QT sdk |
| 17:11.58 | Sput | sivang: in C++? |
| 17:12.04 | sivang | Sput: no, pure QML |
| 17:12.08 | Sput | kk |
| 17:12.12 | sivang | Sput: C++ locaiton stuff does not build or work |
| 17:12.15 | Sput | there's a googlemaps app for Harmattan? |
| 17:12.20 | sivang | Sput: example |
| 17:12.28 | Sput | well, mostly I want a Google Latitude updater that works |
| 17:12.37 | sivang | Sput: it works nice, I will fix it and polish and send a Gerrit patch to Qt Project.org |
| 17:12.44 | sivang | Sput: hopefully it'll get merged |
| 17:12.48 | Sput | cool |
| 17:12.52 | sivang | Sput: we could make one now |
| 17:12.59 | Sput | yes please, I'd test it :) |
| 17:13.00 | sivang | Sput: location stuff is amazingly easy from QML |
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| 17:13.21 | sivang | Sput: I'll try to update the example and see if I can come up with one, could be good for resume as well |
| 17:13.32 | sivang | Sput: with a google latitude client, that is |
| 17:13.33 | Sput | there's one updater somewhere on the net, but that doesn't seem to do anything |
| 17:13.49 | sivang | Sput: my code is very primary I'd need a week more to fix it. |
| 17:13.57 | Sput | hehe, no hurries |
| 17:14.05 | Sput | but please keep me in the loop once you happen to have something testable |
| 17:15.09 | sivang | Sput: will do, could you please remind me again in a week through email? |
| 17:15.23 | Sput | if you remind me |
| 17:15.28 | Sput | :) |
| 17:15.33 | sivang | Sput: okay, I will, I'll tell djszapi to remind me as well :)\ |
| 17:15.42 | sivang | I love seeing him in good mood when planning sprints :-p |
| 17:15.46 | sivang | djszapi: ^ |
| 17:16.12 | sivang | Sput: if you know how to work out location is c++ I'd be glad to know |
| 17:16.24 | sivang | Sput: none of the web published examples work for me |
| 17:16.30 | sivang | *in |
| 17:16.56 | sivang | Sput: btw, have you joined the Ulm people eventually? |
| 17:16.59 | djszapi | hopes to not oversleep again even near a minutely ringing kalarm :) |
| 17:17.10 | sivang | djszapi: YOu better not! |
| 17:17.11 | sivang | :) |
| 17:17.16 | Sput | sivang: yep, started in Ulm in September |
| 17:17.25 | sivang | Sput: ah nice, working on? |
| 17:17.30 | Sput | nothing I could talk about. |
| 17:17.37 | sivang | Sput: lol, working with Mark ? |
| 17:17.42 | Sput | sometimes |
| 17:17.54 | sivang | Sput: send him by big regards and I hope he feels better |
| 17:18.07 | sivang | anyway, I should go back to my work. |
| 17:18.17 | sivang | Sput: stay in touch! |
| 17:18.18 | Sput | yeah. I need to catch a train in 20 mins |
| 17:18.25 | Sput | well, I'm around IRC places |
| 17:18.31 | sivang | Sput: I'll spot you and ping you |
| 17:18.38 | Sput | kthx |
| 17:20.12 | Sput | is going to try to beat his MouseArea handling into submission on the train |
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| 18:02.17 | rZr | did the trolls starve to death ? |
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| 18:21.49 | djszapi | X-Fade: seriously...249 blocked package again, and starting from the beginning... |
| 18:21.55 | djszapi | https://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan |
| 18:22.17 | djszapi | could you please take a look at this ... ? Someone is really spamming the community repository or the c-obs is broken. |
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| 18:31.59 | Sput | aaah the joys of OBS |
| 18:33.30 | djszapi | well, it is a dirty joke ;-) |
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| 18:50.29 | M4rtinK | djszapi: is the file build progressing or is it stuck ? |
| 18:51.17 | djszapi | M4rtinK: sorry ? |
| 18:51.28 | M4rtinK | still, what is causing the complete repo rebuild ? |
| 18:51.40 | M4rtinK | well, seems like the packages wait for fil to compile |
| 18:51.42 | M4rtinK | *file |
| 18:51.59 | djszapi | it is not about file |
| 18:52.01 | M4rtinK | as nothing else is building at the moment |
| 18:52.13 | djszapi | it even happened prior to file |
| 18:52.37 | djszapi | would really like to know what the heck triggers the whole community repository rebuild, or at least the vast majority |
| 18:53.02 | Stskeeps | djszapi: osc -A https://api.pub.meego.com jobhistory home:rzr:harmattan MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard armv7el |
| 18:53.49 | M4rtinK | djszapi: it is about file - a few core packages want libmagic1, which I would guess is provided by the file package |
| 18:54.14 | djszapi | Stskeeps: tried this afternoon, but I could not figure out what has been causing it |
| 18:54.28 | djszapi | M4rtinK: not really. |
| 18:54.47 | Stskeeps | djszapi: osc -A https://api.pub.meego.com triggerreason home:rzr:harmattan smplayer MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_Maemo.org_MeeGo_1.2_Harmattan_standard armv7el |
| 18:54.54 | Stskeeps | that helps to diagnose it |
| 18:54.59 | djszapi | you did not take a look at the repo few minutes ago, but it was even building a prior layer to file |
| 18:55.12 | Stskeeps | meta change |
| 18:55.13 | Stskeeps | changed keys: added libmagic1/libxml2/libncurses5-dev md5sum libxml2/libncurses5-dev |
| 18:55.19 | Stskeeps | gives a hint on what was modded |
| 18:55.30 | M4rtinK | Stskeeps: nice ! |
| 18:56.03 | djszapi | meh, and now 23 blocked packages |
| 18:56.08 | djszapi | few minute ago 250... |
| 18:56.12 | djszapi | who understands it ... |
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| 18:56.55 | djszapi | libxml2 was changed 2 months ago |
| 18:57.18 | M4rtinK | hmm, looks like file build failed so other packages don't want it any more :) |
| 18:57.45 | djszapi | file was changed (libmagic1) 3 months ago |
| 18:58.36 | djszapi | ncurses was changed (libncurses5-dev) 3 months ago |
| 18:59.04 | djszapi | https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=ncurses&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan -> actually I do not understand these aggregate packages |
| 18:59.14 | djszapi | this is the habit of rzr and I do think we should get rid of those |
| 18:59.18 | djszapi | this is not a good practice |
| 18:59.36 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/n/ncurses/ |
| 18:59.45 | djszapi | ncurses is available, so I am now deleting it from the comm repo |
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| 19:00.24 | djszapi | okay, ncurses is a history |
| 19:00.36 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/f/file/ ... |
| 19:01.13 | djszapi | file is also a history |
| 19:01.35 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/libx/libxml2/ ... |
| 19:02.22 | djszapi | libxml2 is also a history |
| 19:02.31 | djszapi | I hope these duplication removals solve something |
| 19:02.52 | djszapi | we would need a smart script to detect the duplicated packages easily .. |
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| 19:05.10 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/l/lsb/ -> same with lsb .. |
| 19:05.45 | djszapi | goodbye lsb, too :) |
| 19:06.11 | faenil | lo people |
| 19:07.46 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/x/xz-utils/ .. |
| 19:07.53 | djszapi | M4rtinK: could you please help me with this cleanup ? |
| 19:08.40 | faenil | djszapi, what do you mean by goodbye? |
| 19:09.03 | djszapi | history |
| 19:09.13 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/s/sharutils/ -> same .. |
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| 19:09.26 | faenil | history? |
| 19:09.40 | djszapi | game over |
| 19:09.53 | faenil | yeahI mean why? I see packages there |
| 19:09.59 | ajalkane | /quit |
| 19:10.16 | djszapi | we duplicate pkg-config too: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/p/pkg-config/ |
| 19:11.28 | djszapi | M4rtinK: btw, vala: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/v/vala/ :) |
| 19:12.06 | djszapi | meh, what is this ? https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=harmattan-repository&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan |
| 19:12.07 | faenil | can anyone please tell me what's wrong with the packages in there? :) |
| 19:12.52 | trx | they are duplicates as i understood |
| 19:13.29 | djszapi | meh, cpio too: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/c/cpio/ |
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| 19:14.02 | M4rtinK | djszapi: I know Vala - its used a lot by the SHR people, together with EFL |
| 19:14.15 | djszapi | vala is a cool thingie |
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| 19:14.28 | faenil | trk: oh duplicates... |
| 19:14.39 | M4rtinK | but I like to use a language that doesn't need to be compiled :) |
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| 19:15.59 | djszapi | M4rtinK: please do feel free to nuke the packages like that from the community repository |
| 19:16.13 | djszapi | which are already provided by N. |
| 19:16.27 | M4rtinK | whats that package anyway ? :) |
| 19:16.48 | djszapi | sorry ? |
| 19:17.21 | M4rtinK | sometimes it feels like rzr is just using some sort of a new-COBS-packages RSS to automatically populate the repository :) |
| 19:17.50 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/n/nano/ -> ok, so nano is also history ... |
| 19:17.52 | M4rtinK | djszapi: I mean I have no idea what the package called harmattan-repository does |
| 19:18.04 | djszapi | there is even an "rzr" package. |
| 19:18.09 | djszapi | wth |
| 19:18.20 | M4rtinK | its "his" repo :) |
| 19:18.48 | djszapi | no |
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| 19:19.00 | djszapi | it is a community repository. I proposed to be at his place. |
| 19:19.10 | djszapi | since we did not get a dedicated account for this |
| 19:19.17 | djszapi | and I did not want it at my place. |
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| 19:20.36 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/b/bc/ and https://build.pub.meego.com/package/files?package=bc&project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan |
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| 19:21.34 | M4rtinK | btw, what's beta3 ? |
| 19:21.44 | djszapi | repository. |
| 19:22.00 | M4rtinK | its the current repo for the N950 ? |
| 19:22.31 | M4rtinK | hmm, seems like it as it has nano :) |
| 19:22.32 | djszapi | well, you can add any repository which is available to your sources.list |
| 19:22.56 | M4rtinK | I mean the default repository |
| 19:23.19 | djszapi | try to read your default sources.list I guess |
| 19:23.27 | djszapi | I do not know this bit by heart |
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| 19:24.14 | djszapi | but this cleanup so far eliminated 100 blocked packages from that stage. |
| 19:25.36 | M4rtinK | I have found just an URL with a funny hash @ downloads.maemo.com |
| 19:26.07 | M4rtinK | so I'd guess that hashed path is just redirected to beta3,beta4,beta5, etc. as needed |
| 19:26.18 | djszapi | no real clue, sorry |
| 19:27.18 | M4rtinK | well, it's not important |
| 19:27.22 | M4rtinK | btw: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/s/sudo/ |
| 19:27.33 | M4rtinK | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/s/swi-prolog/ ?? :D |
| 19:27.38 | djszapi | M4rtinK: we need to clean up all the core packages |
| 19:27.43 | djszapi | which are duplicated |
| 19:28.01 | djszapi | because everything will be blocked since it tries to rebuild core packages even if they are available by default in binary format ... |
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| 19:28.22 | djszapi | sorry, but what is "??" ? |
| 19:28.40 | M4rtinK | just stronger ? |
| 19:28.59 | djszapi | sorry ? |
| 19:29.08 | gabriel9 | i think there must be 1h of sleaping on the job |
| 19:29.25 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/o/openssl/ -> meh, openssl |
| 19:29.26 | gabriel9 | for coders |
| 19:29.37 | djszapi | that is extremely huge duplication because it build for one hour or so |
| 19:30.14 | djszapi | builds* |
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| 19:31.44 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/c/cairo/ -> cairo is also duplicated ... |
| 19:32.35 | djszapi | meh, even strace :D |
| 19:33.27 | djszapi | actually, many of these are not just duplicated, but rather outdated to the Nokia shipped ones. |
| 19:34.07 | djszapi | libexif too... |
| 19:34.11 | M4rtinK | djszapi: might fix those GTK issues in the end :) |
| 19:34.32 | djszapi | I think rZr was drunk while importing the Nokia repository :) |
| 19:35.03 | djszapi | M4rtinK: hope so |
| 19:35.21 | djszapi | M4rtinK: the cleanup caused -150 blocked heretofore |
| 19:35.31 | djszapi | meh, alsa lib ! |
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| 19:37.13 | djszapi | M4rtinK: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/h/harmattan-repository/ this seems to be a real package :) Do not ask me what it provides :p |
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| 19:37.50 | djszapi | libselinux in the commrepo :D Tryings for putting selinux instead of aegis ? :D |
| 19:39.57 | M4rtinK | djszapi: Aegis is not enough, we need more ! apparmor is next ! :D |
| 19:40.16 | djszapi | M4rtinK: have you ever experienced rpc timeout while it was building fine locally by using "osc build" ? I have many situations like that for now |
| 19:40.23 | djszapi | heh :) |
| 19:40.44 | M4rtinK | well, I think you can't get RPC timeout with local build |
| 19:40.58 | M4rtinK | at least once it has downloaded everything |
| 19:41.01 | djszapi | yes, but how am I supposed to debug that then ? |
| 19:41.54 | M4rtinK | IMHO RPC - Remote Procedure Call, so it means a part of the remote infrastructure did not answer a request in time |
| 19:42.14 | M4rtinK | trigger rebuild until it works |
| 19:42.20 | M4rtinK | or bug X-Fade :) |
| 19:43.14 | nix-cyrus | what kind of rpc? |
| 19:43.16 | M4rtinK | frequent RPC timeouts might be a sign of infrastructure failure/overload |
| 19:43.43 | djszapi | nix-cyrus: we do not know |
| 19:44.04 | djszapi | M4rtinK: -200 blocked :) |
| 19:44.47 | M4rtinK | BTW: https://api.opensuse.org/apidocs/ |
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| 19:45.25 | Stskeeps | s/MeeGo/Nemo/ |
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| 19:48.02 | djszapi | M4rtinK: ctrl+f: rpc gives zero result in that apidocs |
| 19:48.11 | M4rtinK | OBS uses standard http calls like GET, PUT, POST |
| 19:49.16 | M4rtinK | that was just an answer to what kind of RPC it uses |
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| 20:06.05 | nix-cyrus | get and put not rpc I think |
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| 20:26.46 | DocScrutinizer | btw I can't no longer host the daily mirror of http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool , it's getting too large |
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| 20:56.34 | trx | what's with the OBS? i get "rpc timeout", what does that mean? |
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| 21:27.54 | henkie | Hi, are there any good example applications for N9/N950 written with QML ? |
| 21:31.21 | dm8tbr | should be plenty |
| 21:31.52 | dm8tbr | e.g. on build.pub.meego.com apps that are built for harmattan |
| 21:32.45 | henkie | tnx, I'll take a look |
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| 21:36.52 | dm8tbr | the docs should also tell you well enough how to get up and running |
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| 22:55.59 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/libm/libmeegotouch/ -> meh this is also duplicated... |
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| 22:57.13 | djszapi | same with boost ... |
| 22:57.14 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/b/boost1.42/ |
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| 22:58.39 | lardman|home | hmm, why is it that calling QCamera stop() doesn't seem to completely stop the camera? |
| 22:58.53 | djszapi | same with libxslt ...http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/libx/libxslt/ |
| 22:58.55 | lardman|home | It still clicks when my app is closed, which makes me think something is still running there |
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| 23:00.19 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/m/meegotouch-qt-style/ -> duplicated, too |
| 23:00.46 | lardman|home | hmm, is there a new sw release? |
| 23:01.22 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/d/devscripts/ -> this is also duplicated ... |
| 23:01.41 | lardman|home | what are you doing djszapi ? |
| 23:02.44 | djszapi | meh even the meego-terminal ...http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/m/meego-terminal/ |
| 23:02.48 | djszapi | lardman|home: backlog |
| 23:03.49 | lardman|home | looks for logs |
| 23:04.05 | SpeedEvil | He's complaining about OBS being screwed up with duplicated packages. |
| 23:04.31 | SpeedEvil | For reasons I don't understand (the cause of the duplicates) |
| 23:05.10 | lardman|home | ah ok, thanks SpeedEvil |
| 23:05.17 | lardman|home | the logs weren't very conclusive |
| 23:05.46 | djszapi | lardman|home: the community repository is hilariously broken |
| 23:06.20 | djszapi | I took a look ... rzr pushed at least 20-30 very fundamental packages from the Nokia repository into our commrepo which well ... made huge obstacles for us |
| 23:07.15 | lardman|home | I thought there was a blacklist of packages that couldn't be pushed into the "Extras" equiv? |
| 23:07.27 | lardman|home | i.e. anything in the actual image |
| 23:07.38 | djszapi | Sadly, there is no suck a hook |
| 23:08.05 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/c/cdbs/ -> this is also duplicated .. |
| 23:09.03 | djszapi | meh even bzip2 -> http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/b/bzip2/ |
| 23:10.09 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/a/automoc/ -> duplicate, too |
| 23:11.03 | lardman|home | curses converting UYVY into Y |
| 23:11.40 | djszapi | automoc too :D |
| 23:12.28 | lardman|home | hmm, probably too late in the evening for this |
| 23:13.13 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/d/diffstat/ -> duplicated, meh I do not understand how these many could happen |
| 23:13.20 | djszapi | lardman|home: where do you live ? |
| 23:13.30 | lardman|home | UK, near Bath |
| 23:13.59 | lardman|home | I have an 11 week old daughter though, so not much sleep |
| 23:14.17 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/d/dosfstools/ -> duplicated |
| 23:14.25 | djszapi | lardman|home: ahh I see. |
| 23:15.51 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/f/fakeroot/ -> duplicated |
| 23:16.32 | lardman|home | sees the school-boy error, missed off a pair of ++s |
| 23:17.21 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/i/i2c-tools/ this one, too |
| 23:18.52 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/s/sudo/ -> sudo, too |
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| 23:19.02 | djszapi | well, the commrepo is getting much cleaner :) |
| 23:19.14 | lardman|home | hmm, interesting, using a QDataStream on an existing file doesn't change the modification date.... |
| 23:19.49 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/t/tcl8.5/ -> tcl, too |
| 23:21.27 | djszapi | http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta3/free/f/fuse/ -> fuse, too |
| 23:21.44 | lardman|home | thanks God for Octave to make debugging image format conversion easier |
| 23:21.53 | lardman|home | s/to make/for making |
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| 23:24.52 | djszapi | why not koctave ? :p |
| 23:36.30 | M4rtinK | djszapi: fuse in the official repo ? |
| 23:37.13 | M4rtinK | anyway, looks like rzr might have just added packages that wee not available in earlier betas |
| 23:37.16 | djszapi | yes, of course |
| 23:37.18 | M4rtinK | *were |
| 23:37.20 | djszapi | no |
| 23:37.29 | djszapi | many of those were already available in day first |
| 23:37.47 | lardman|home | bed time, night all |
| 23:37.50 | djszapi | fusefs is of course there since the platform is heavily based on that anyway |
| 23:37.58 | djszapi | sleep well |
| 23:38.24 | M4rtinK | djszapi: oh, interesting |
| 23:42.17 | gabriel9 | night |
| 23:42.23 | M4rtinK | djszapi: are you done with the cleanup or should I also take a look ? |
| 23:43.28 | djszapi | you should take a look whenever you have time. I am also a human making mistakes. |
| 23:43.43 | djszapi | may have overlooked something during the review |
| 23:44.11 | rZr | djszapi: let me disable those one |
| 23:44.26 | rZr | there are imported from the debian folders |
| 23:45.37 | djszapi | I deleted all |
| 23:45.42 | djszapi | there is nothing to disable |
| 23:45.53 | djszapi | please read the commrepo description next time |
| 23:46.32 | rZr | djszapi: i dint not import nokia repo |
| 23:46.48 | rZr | those are coming from debian |
| 23:46.51 | djszapi | rZr: there were at least 20-30 packages duplicated with your name as committer. |
| 23:47.11 | djszapi | as the description writes, please do /not/ submit duplicates in the future. |
| 23:47.35 | djszapi | it causes very big troubles. Always check whether or not a package is available in the "official" repositories first. |
| 23:48.13 | rZr | djszapi: then delete them also in debian project |
| 23:48.25 | rZr | well i can understand the issue |
| 23:48.48 | rZr | i think my helper scripts are not suitable anymore |
| 23:49.13 | rZr | then the job must be done with a real human brain |
| 23:49.23 | rZr | i cant do that alone |
| 23:49.53 | rZr | djszapi: do u deleted them all that are in b3 repo ? |
| 23:49.54 | djszapi | well there are two options |
| 23:50.05 | djszapi | 1) Make things cool 2) Do nothing. |
| 23:50.20 | rZr | i think i'll pick the 2d option in the near future |
| 23:50.35 | djszapi | I personally do not force you to hurry with pushing, if you cannot do that alone |
| 23:50.39 | rZr | i used to write import on build scripts |
| 23:50.48 | rZr | but this not possible anymore |
| 23:51.10 | rZr | anyway thanks for pointing this out |
| 23:51.13 | djszapi | it is possible if there is a hook checking against the "official" repositories. |
| 23:51.43 | rZr | yes I'll have to add that to reuse them again |
| 23:52.01 | rZr | djszapi: is it clean now ? |
| 23:52.25 | djszapi | I do not know, but cleaner the least ;-) |
| 23:52.36 | rZr | ok thank you |
| 23:53.15 | rZr | let s play w/ fuse again :-) |
| 23:53.47 | djszapi | rZr: also I will review the maintainers, and probably drop the people not maintaining anything |
| 23:54.35 | M4rtinK | djszapi: looks like the b3 repos are not set as default yet |
| 23:54.40 | M4rtinK | at least on my N950 |
| 23:54.54 | M4rtinK | I have tried by doing "apt-cache search vala" |
| 23:54.55 | rZr | one thing to do is to push reliable packages to apps4m repo |
| 23:54.59 | djszapi | M4rtinK: never was default |
| 23:55.14 | djszapi | rZr: I do not see the point of apps4m |
| 23:55.38 | djszapi | it is not available for an average user.. They only know OVI ... |
| 23:55.41 | rZr | this is the official shared repo isnt it ? |
| 23:55.46 | djszapi | nope |
| 23:55.51 | M4rtinK | djszapi: so what's the purpose of the b3 repo then ? |
| 23:55.53 | djszapi | as its name says, it is only for apps |
| 23:56.02 | djszapi | libraries are no-go |
| 23:56.08 | djszapi | and apps should go into OVI |
| 23:56.19 | djszapi | to get the proper credentials for their operations, and available for average users |
| 23:56.19 | rZr | what about opensources apps ? |
| 23:56.31 | djszapi | opensource apps /can/ go to OVI |
| 23:56.32 | rZr | severals channels ? |
| 23:56.48 | rZr | does ovi provide deb-src ? |
| 23:56.49 | djszapi | I personally see no point in apps4m in case Harmattan |
| 23:56.55 | djszapi | I do not really understand why it exists |
| 23:57.06 | rZr | this makes a major reason to dont use ovi for opensources appps |
| 23:57.26 | rZr | a4m is a apt souce isnt it ? |
| 23:57.28 | djszapi | rZr: yes of course, they allow you to put the src there. |
| 23:57.40 | djszapi | and that is what people do, one click and get the tree. |
| 23:57.59 | djszapi | a4m does not have business use case imho for Harmattan |
| 23:58.01 | djszapi | I do not accept its existence |
| 23:58.07 | rZr | anyway a apt repo is good along ovi |
| 23:58.18 | djszapi | because Harmattan works according to OVI and unknown credentials |
| 23:58.43 | djszapi | so many apps will not even work in apps4m |
| 23:58.51 | djszapi | and ofc not available for average N9 users |
| 23:58.55 | rZr | or in other words is apt obsolete ? |
| 23:59.05 | djszapi | what do you mean ? |
| 23:59.17 | M4rtinK | I have added a question to the apps4m thread about libraries and utilities (libGTK, EFL, espeak, etc.) :) |
| 23:59.19 | rZr | ovi is not apt based right ? |
| 23:59.30 | djszapi | M4rtinK: that is the Nokia repository |
| 23:59.45 | djszapi | rZr: not sure I am getting your question |
| 23:59.56 | rZr | i can see the benefit for endusers to use a fancy store like ovi |
