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| 07:19.42 | *** topic/#gsoc is Google Summer of Code 2010 is On! - Accepted student applications announced on April 26 - File Feature Requests & Bugs at http://bit.ly/a5tD87 - Read the FAQs: http://bit.ly/9q41Ey - Consider Hosting a GSoC Info Session: http://bit.ly/amIwdd - We need flyer and presentations translations, videos too! |
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| 07:22.19 | dholbach | good morning |
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| 07:47.37 | killerchicken_ | !timeline |
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| 07:56.38 | robbyoconnor | killerchicken_: bot is dead |
| 07:56.47 | robbyoconnor | we took it out to pasture |
| 07:56.52 | robbyoconnor | don't worry, it was quick. |
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| 08:06.01 | YuviPanda | sheds a tear for the bot |
| 08:06.04 | YuviPanda | moves on with life |
| 08:06.05 | mlankhorst | g'morning |
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| 08:25.29 | xb95 | !next |
| 08:25.33 | xb95 | !faq |
| 08:25.36 | xb95 | oh, it died. |
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| 08:26.03 | Dark_Shikari | !next |
| 08:26.11 | Dark_Shikari | blegh, dead bot |
| 08:26.18 | Dark_Shikari | so wait, are acceptances due the 21st or 16th? |
| 08:26.20 | Dark_Shikari | er, *26 |
| 08:26.27 | xb95 | from the org? 21st for initial |
| 08:26.29 | Dark_Shikari | i.e. when we have to have all our points laid out |
| 08:26.31 | xb95 | then the dedupe process |
| 08:26.33 | Dark_Shikari | ok |
| 08:26.42 | killerchicken_ | dedup is wednesday |
| 08:26.45 | xb95 | but after the 21st we can't make more changes to points and the like |
| 08:26.52 | xb95 | so make sure you get things set basically today/tomorrow |
| 08:27.08 | xb95 | 1700 UTC on the 21st is the deadline |
| 08:27.51 | robbyoconnor | http://is.gd/bxZkB |
| 08:27.54 | robbyoconnor | ^^ |
| 08:27.57 | robbyoconnor | go nuts :) |
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| 08:43.09 | Nightrose | about Season of KDE: i'm mostly organizing it - if you have people with questions sent them to #kde-soc or me directly please |
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| 08:44.16 | Nightrose | we can't pay the students for SoK but we'll give out tshirts and certificates to successful students and they're invited to join us at akademy and will likely get help with travel costs |
| 08:44.39 | Nightrose | the timeline is more relaxed than GSoC and can be adapted to the students needs |
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| 08:50.56 | adimania | way to go Nightrose! :) |
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| 08:51.55 | mlankhorst | Nightrose: awesome :) |
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| 08:52.12 | ihalip | adimania: you may think this is weird, but i had a dream about you last night |
| 08:52.44 | ihalip | i'm not kidding, i was taking a bus, and then you came and you looked like you know me and said "i'm adimania" |
| 08:52.52 | adimania | Woa!! |
| 08:53.01 | adimania | where are you from? |
| 08:53.05 | ihalip | Romania |
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| 08:53.12 | robbyoconnor | Nightrose: HIIIII |
| 08:53.37 | adimania | No way! I live in India |
| 08:54.14 | ihalip | and in my dream, you were a girl |
| 08:54.26 | ihalip | i'm guessing you're not |
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| 08:54.45 | adimania | nope! I am a guy :D |
| 08:56.56 | mlankhorst | Nightrose: how kliche though, does kde do everythink with a k? |
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| 08:59.56 | ojwb | should be Knightrose... |
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| 09:03.04 | mlankhorst | ojwb: only funy once, sorry |
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| 09:05.53 | mlankhorst | actually, dont thin it was funny the first time either |
| 09:06.01 | ojwb | mlankhorst: I've only said it once |
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| 09:06.58 | Nightrose | adimania: :) |
| 09:07.09 | Nightrose | mlankhorst: hehe - actually we're not |
| 09:07.20 | Nightrose | we're trying to get away from k names |
| 09:07.29 | Nightrose | but Season of KDE is a bit older already |
| 09:07.34 | mlankhorst | ah :) |
| 09:07.45 | Nightrose | see all the new kde 4 technology names for example |
| 09:07.58 | Nightrose | plasma, phonon, solid, ... |
| 09:08.01 | Nightrose | no Ks :D |
| 09:08.10 | mlankhorst | hehe |
| 09:09.19 | kai | so pNightrose, in the spirit of kde4? |
| 09:09.34 | Nightrose | !worksforme |
| 09:09.36 | Nightrose | ;-) |
| 09:09.44 | Nightrose | hugs her nick |
| 09:09.49 | Nightrose | it's perfect the way it is! |
| 09:10.04 | mlankhorst | nightrosé ? |
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| 09:10.30 | adimania | ownCloud is also there, no Ks or Ps |
| 09:10.53 | Ivanovic | misses the lovely Ks |
| 09:11.09 | Nightrose | Ivanovic: there's still plenty left ;-) |
| 09:11.16 | adimania | misses Ks too |
| 09:11.26 | Nightrose | -> shower |
| 09:11.27 | Nightrose | laters |
| 09:11.36 | mlankhorst | okular still has a k in it :) |
| 09:11.48 | Ivanovic | those ks do make some programs so lovely german |
| 09:11.55 | Ivanovic | like for example konversation |
| 09:12.11 | Ivanovic | and yeah, okular is a lovely german word, too |
| 09:12.15 | kai | Ivanovic: knetworkmanager? |
| 09:12.29 | Ivanovic | uhm, no |
| 09:12.56 | kai | adimania: yeah, they should have called it ownKloud |
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| 09:13.15 | adimania | kai: I would love that |
| 09:13.31 | mlankhorst | and they should have called kdetv broadkast :p |
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| 09:14.09 | Ivanovic | ain't kdetv dead by now? |
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| 09:15.24 | mlankhorst | yeah, but there's no kde4 replacement :( |
| 09:15.56 | Dark_Shikari | they could come out with a kde version of kde |
| 09:15.56 | Dark_Shikari | kkde |
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| 09:16.01 | Ivanovic | regarding kde4 replacement: |
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| 09:16.47 | Ivanovic | is there any decent client supporting SIP out there that runs nicely under kde4 (no qt3 anymore!) |
| 09:16.52 | Ivanovic | was using (and loving) twinkle, but there is still no qt4 port of it which is the reason why it is gone from gentoo |
| 09:17.25 | Chainsaw | Ivanovic: Have you spoken to upstream about it? |
| 09:17.32 | Chainsaw | Ivanovic: QT3 removal in other distributions is only a matter of time. |
| 09:18.01 | mlankhorst | not really, as long as it compiles they keep it around |
| 09:18.11 | Ivanovic | looking at the twinkle website it seems like there is no real progress, last release is from febuary 2009 |
| 09:18.13 | Ivanovic | http://www.xs4all.nl/~mfnboer/twinkle/ |
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| 09:18.43 | Chainsaw | mlankhorst: Unlikely, XMMS got removed. It compiled, but was dependent on GTK+ 1. |
| 09:18.54 | Chainsaw | mlankhorst: Depending on a deprecated toolkit means it will disappear. |
| 09:19.12 | mlankhorst | yeah but gtk2 was around for 5 years at that point |
| 09:20.26 | mlankhorst | I still know some people who run kde3 with backports |
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| 09:21.47 | Ivanovic | so back to the initial question: is there some decent "kde4 sip client"? |
| 09:22.07 | Ivanovic | yesterday i experimented a little with some sip clients and honestly speaking, it was a mess |
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| 09:22.26 | robbyoconnor | is skype not an option? |
| 09:22.33 | Chainsaw | robbyoconnor: Skype does not implement SIP. |
| 09:22.37 | Ivanovic | yate was not really configurable like i need it (if the options were there, i have not found them) |
| 09:22.39 | robbyoconnor | heh yeh |
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| 09:22.51 | robbyoconnor | it's decent though for VOIP |
| 09:23.10 | Ivanovic | linphone was somehow not able to auto unmute the mixer chan for my mic |
| 09:23.21 | Chainsaw | Unless you want to call into actual VoIP systems or receive actual VoIP calls, Skype is great. |
| 09:23.30 | robbyoconnor | heh yeh |
| 09:23.32 | Ivanovic | robbyoconnor: the huge difference is that my ISP does offer me some sip accounts with free phone calls into the german telephone net |
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| 09:23.58 | Ivanovic | and with ekiga i was not even able to connect to the number at all |
| 09:24.17 | robbyoconnor | heh cool |
| 09:24.23 | robbyoconnor | ew |
| 09:24.28 | kai | hm, I wonder how much an OEM version of win7 pro costs my store these days |
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| 09:24.44 | Ivanovic | kai: depends on the "flavor" |
| 09:24.53 | kai | brb, food |
| 09:25.09 | Ivanovic | as in: nothing incuded at all edition, bloatware 2.0 edition, full package - double price edition or *whatever* |
| 09:25.10 | Ivanovic | ;) |
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| 09:26.34 | Ivanovic | Chainsaw: regarding tinkle upstream: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/twinklephone/message/3647 |
| 09:26.37 | Ivanovic | sounds dead to me... |
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| 10:12.41 | AshishG | !botabuse |
| 10:12.45 | kai | Ivanovic: hence me saying win7 professional |
| 10:12.59 | Ivanovic | kai: even that is not sufficient |
| 10:13.52 | Ivanovic | kai: win7pro does (as oem) come with possibly different prices depending on 32bit/64bit, normale/E edition, german/english edition, ... |
| 10:14.25 | Ivanovic | plus full version or upgrade |
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| 10:14.55 | bawr | Hm. Is there any reason anyone would want Windows 7, except games? I mean, DX11 lock-in aside, XP just works for the rare occasions I need to use unwineable software. |
| 10:15.02 | kai | ah, I think I'm talking about a 32bit normal german edition |
| 10:15.07 | kai | bawr: and I don't want one |
| 10:15.23 | kai | I just want to know what I can ask for _instead_ of the win7 license |
| 10:15.33 | robbyoconnor | set up FB fanpages for 2009 and 2010 :) |
| 10:15.39 | Chainsaw | bawr: Driver support for new hardware. Vendors will stop releasing WDM XP drivers pretty soon, especially for graphics. |
| 10:15.41 | robbyoconnor | GSoC) |
| 10:15.43 | Ivanovic | kai: uhm, interesting |
| 10:15.47 | bawr | Ah, sounds good, then. I was still wondering, though. |
| 10:15.51 | Ivanovic | kai: that is: what do you consider buying? |
| 10:15.57 | bawr | Chainsaw: So... gaames, basically? :) |
| 10:16.08 | Ivanovic | a preconfigured computer from "huge manufacturer" or something built to your specs? |
| 10:16.22 | Ivanovic | with "built to your specs" you can specify "no windows" and be done |
| 10:16.25 | Ivanovic | ;) |
| 10:16.28 | kai | Ivanovic: laptop |
| 10:16.30 | Dark_Shikari | bawr: the only real reasons I see are backend improvements |
| 10:16.35 | Dark_Shikari | and better support for newer hardware |
| 10:16.41 | Ivanovic | there you have to talk to the company producing it |
| 10:16.47 | kai | Ivanovic: well, no |
| 10:16.56 | Dark_Shikari | they improved memory management, kernel stuff a lot. which is hardly saying much, xp was not very good. |
| 10:16.59 | Ivanovic | kai: not? |
| 10:17.06 | kai | Ivanovic: the thing is I ordered a certain version of the r500 from a store |
| 10:17.13 | Ivanovic | at least that was still the case with good old winxp |
| 10:17.17 | kai | Ivanovic: and it turns out they don't have it anymore |
| 10:17.20 | AshishG | DELL i think will give you linux if you want and acer will give you DOS if you want apparently |
| 10:17.29 | Dark_Shikari | dos! lol |
| 10:17.29 | bawr | Hm. Seeing as I play games with a 5-10 year lag, anyway, I guess I can wait a long time before I'll be forced to use Win7. |
| 10:17.45 | kai | Ivanovic: so they offered me a different piece of hardware, with similar specs |
| 10:17.52 | Dark_Shikari | bawr: I installed it to replace vista (uuugh) on my new laptop. it pretty much works just like xp |
| 10:17.59 | Dark_Shikari | Largely because I turned off everything that wasn't. |
| 10:18.05 | Dark_Shikari | The control panels are retarded though. |
| 10:18.12 | kai | Ivanovic: but instead of win7 that offer comes with freedos |
| 10:18.25 | kai | Ivanovic: add a couple of other differences |
| 10:18.29 | Dark_Shikari | they need to send their UI designers back to school, win7 is a UI disaster, they just sort of threw buttons everywhere. |
| 10:18.33 | bawr | Heh, my laptop came with vista... After two hours, I nuked it from the orbit. :) |
| 10:18.36 | kai | like a smaller disk and less ram than what I asked for |
| 10:18.53 | Dark_Shikari | I installed 7 primarily because I wanted 64-bit |
| 10:18.55 | Dark_Shikari | and xp 64 still sucks |
| 10:19.01 | AshishG | Dark_Shikari: which UI would you say is best today in the market? |
| 10:19.04 | Ivanovic | kai: have you read the windows7 EULA and what it says regarding a refund? |
| 10:19.07 | bawr | Ah, yup. No argument there. |
| 10:19.09 | Dark_Shikari | AshishG: that's way too general a question |
| 10:19.17 | Dark_Shikari | I'm referring to the problem of specific interfaces in 7 being badly designed |
| 10:19.19 | Dark_Shikari | e.g. control panels, etc |
| 10:19.19 | kai | Ivanovic: no, why? I haven't bought a windows |
| 10:19.23 | Dark_Shikari | where they just throw a ton of random shit into a window |
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| 10:19.36 | Ivanovic | kai: you have bought the laptop with windows |
| 10:19.38 | Dark_Shikari | ranging from dumbed-down-for-idiots stuff to highly technical info... all in the same place with no separation |
| 10:19.46 | kai | Ivanovic: nope |
| 10:19.46 | AshishG | Dark_Shikari: oh! that's what you meant. you still have search at the top right ;) |
| 10:19.47 | Ivanovic | and that software can, according to the EULA be returned |
| 10:20.03 | kai | Ivanovic: haven't bought anything yet |
| 10:20.06 | Dark_Shikari | the windows window manager is fine, not great but fine |
| 10:20.07 | Ivanovic | or were they never able to deliver the original hardware? |
| 10:20.16 | Dark_Shikari | the OS interfaces are garbage, worse with every new windows |
| 10:20.22 | Dark_Shikari | largely because they have too options and not enough places to put them |
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| 10:20.25 | Dark_Shikari | "gnome syndrome" |
| 10:20.25 | Ivanovic | Dark_Shikari: the windowmanager sucks, no sticky windows |
| 10:20.38 | AshishG | Dark_Shikari: :D :D |
| 10:20.46 | kai | Ivanovic: they contacted me, making a new offer |
| 10:20.56 | kai | Ivanovic: the store offered me to install a bigger harddrive and give me a win7 license for the same price |
| 10:21.06 | AshishG | Ivanovic: if you really wanted that then nvidia drivers do let you do that i think |
| 10:21.28 | robbyoconnor | okay |
| 10:21.31 | Ivanovic | AshishG: you know, as linux user using kde i don't need to depend on the graphics driver providing this |
| 10:21.38 | robbyoconnor | I did my quota of FB stalking forthe evening :) |
| 10:21.40 | Dark_Shikari | even though I don't use it much, I like ubuntu's default interface a lot. it's a lot less of a mess than 7 |
| 10:21.41 | Ivanovic | AshishG: i expect a modern DE to have this |
| 10:21.56 | bawr | kai: I think the real question is "how much does the store pay for that license", and it's probably not much. |
| 10:22.02 | kai | Ivanovic: and given that an additional 2 GB or ram are priced at about 55 bucks in that store, I wonder if I should ask for more if I tell them to keep their win7 and give me more ram instead |
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| 10:22.05 | Ivanovic | kai: hmm, to be honest: no idea what the shop really has to pay for the license |
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| 10:22.13 | bawr | So you're not likely to get good stuff instead. |
| 10:22.25 | kai | shrugs |
| 10:22.29 | Ivanovic | but considering this list: http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?cat=ossoft&sort=p&bpmax=&asuch=professional&v=e&plz=&dist=&pixonoff=on&filter=+Liste+aktualisieren+&xf=400_Windows+7~402_OEM |
| 10:22.39 | robbyoconnor | kai: i requested to add ya on fb; Nightrose you too |
| 10:22.40 | bawr | But yeah, fight the power. ;) |
| 10:22.44 | robbyoconnor | and i forggot who else lol |
| 10:22.45 | robbyoconnor | :X |
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| 10:22.57 | kai | I don't need a 32bit win7 |
| 10:23.02 | Ivanovic | i'd say: 110⬠- tax - their win |
| 10:23.21 | bawr | Urrgh, facebook. That Southpark episode on facebook pretty much summed up most of my gripes with it. |
| 10:23.21 | kai | that can't deal with the ram I want to install into that box |
| 10:23.22 | Nightrose | robbyoconnor: stalker :D |
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| 10:23.32 | robbyoconnor | yeh |
| 10:23.33 | robbyoconnor | sue me |
| 10:23.37 | robbyoconnor | wait no dont |
| 10:23.41 | Ivanovic | lets say that their win margin is some 10% from some 90⬠the original price is probably close to 80⬠|
| 10:23.42 | Dark_Shikari | the single worst thing about windows 7 is that fork got slower |
| 10:23.44 | Dark_Shikari | like 10 times slower |
| 10:23.53 | bawr | Dark_Shikari: WHAT. |
| 10:23.54 | Nightrose | robbyoconnor: lol |
| 10:24.02 | Ivanovic | since you are comparing to prices with tax included make it 80 * 1.19 |
| 10:24.12 | Dark_Shikari | bawr: yes |
| 10:24.13 | Ivanovic | so slightly less than 100⬠|
| 10:24.17 | Dark_Shikari | configure scripts can take up to 5 minutes to run |
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| 10:24.26 | kai | ok... |
| 10:24.32 | bawr | Like... the hell. I mean, multi-threaded software relying on thousands of forks is a bucket of fail, anyway- |
| 10:24.36 | robbyoconnor | the thing with facebook fanpages: they start to spread like wild fires lol |
| 10:24.37 | robbyoconnor | :) |
| 10:24.40 | Dark_Shikari | bawr: POSIX |
| 10:24.42 | robbyoconnor | :X |
| 10:24.45 | Dark_Shikari | shells -> every operation is a fork |
| 10:24.46 | bawr | Ahh. Configure scripts. Right. |
| 10:25.02 | Dark_Shikari | Make is faster than configure on my windows 7 |
| 10:25.04 | Dark_Shikari | for basically all software |
| 10:25.08 | bawr | Dark_Shikari: Unless it literally takes more than tenth of a second, that's not really a problem. |
| 10:25.14 | Dark_Shikari | bawr: most definitely has to |
| 10:25.15 | bawr | For shells, I mean. |
| 10:25.18 | kai | Dark_Shikari: same on linux for me |
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| 10:25.27 | Dark_Shikari | I would bet at least 0.5 seconds per fork |
| 10:25.33 | kai | Dark_Shikari: I don't think autoconf uses more than one CPU |
| 10:25.35 | Dark_Shikari | so, a configure script that runs 500 checks will take 5 minutes |
| 10:25.47 | kai | I think I'll ask for 2G of ram and a warranty upgrade then :) |
| 10:25.51 | bawr | Dark_Shikari: Wait, seriously? Could you time it? |
| 10:25.58 | Dark_Shikari | bawr: ok, I'll time the ffmpeg configure script |
| 10:26.06 | bawr | I can't believe fork can be *that* expensive on win7. |
| 10:26.33 | Dark_Shikari | nb: cygwin 1.7.whatever |
| 10:26.42 | bawr | Well, I meant something simple, like 100 forks, but hey, ffmpeg configure script wrtks, too. :) |
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| 10:26.56 | Dark_Shikari | ok, I just checked out ffmpeg and ran configure on my linux box |
| 10:26.59 | Dark_Shikari | windows still hasn't even printed anything |
| 10:27.12 | Dark_Shikari | linux: 15.3 seconds real time, 9.9 user, 4.1 sys |
| 10:27.18 | Dark_Shikari | cpu: dual core i7, 1.86ghz |
| 10:27.34 | Dark_Shikari | windows 7: quadcore i7, 1.6ghz (Still running, I'll tell you when it's odne) |
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| 10:28.05 | bawr | Woah. This is some spooky stuff. |
| 10:28.22 | Dark_Shikari | remember windows doesn't have a native fork |
| 10:28.24 | Dark_Shikari | cygwin has to emulate it |
| 10:28.33 | Dark_Shikari | But whatever windows 7 did, it made emulation more costly. |
| 10:28.43 | Dark_Shikari | (no copy-on-write, iirc, is the kicker) |
| 10:29.04 | Dark_Shikari | still running btw ;) |
| 10:29.17 | AshishG | liquidmetal: hi |
| 10:29.18 | bawr | No cop-on-wirte? Oh, shit. |
| 10:29.30 | Dark_Shikari | no windows ever had cow, iirc |
| 10:29.30 | bawr | Yeah, that will be slow. |
| 10:29.39 | Kosma | one thusand forks+waits takes 0.15s on my Linux machine |
| 10:29.47 | Dark_Shikari | done! |
| 10:29.51 | Dark_Shikari | real: 3m54s |
| 10:29.52 | Kosma | could anyone time that under Windows? |
| 10:29.53 | Dark_Shikari | user: 44s |
| 10:29.57 | Dark_Shikari | sys: 40.6s |
| 10:30.03 | Dark_Shikari | 3 minutes 54 seconds vs 15.3 seconds. |
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| 10:30.20 | Dark_Shikari | Now you understand the single thing I hate most about development on windows. |
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| 10:30.39 | Dark_Shikari | Kosma: how'd you test it? |
| 10:30.52 | Kosma | http://kosma.pl/tmp/fork.c |
| 10:30.56 | Ivanovic | windows sucks regarding load on IO |
| 10:31.08 | Ivanovic | that is: i had firefox open some days ago and then installed a game |
| 10:31.14 | Ivanovic | the harddrive used is not too fast |
| 10:31.16 | AshishG | didn't MS hire one of the best ppl? |
| 10:31.39 | Ivanovic | having a quadcode core2 q9300 i'd assume that it should be possible to surf while installing |
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| 10:31.44 | Ivanovic | installing a game that is |
| 10:31.51 | Dark_Shikari | yeah, windows needs ionice |
| 10:31.55 | Ivanovic | decompression does not use more than one core |
| 10:31.56 | Dark_Shikari | though firefox just sucks |
| 10:32.16 | Ivanovic | though surfing was like "2mins loading time for a plain html website without much fancy stuff" |
| 10:32.24 | Ivanovic | things that do work lovely with firefox on linux |
| 10:32.33 | Ivanovic | there you see almost no difference with high io load |
| 10:32.41 | Dark_Shikari | Kosma: 50.6s |
| 10:32.50 | bawr | Dark_Shikari: Oh, the things I learn. Though I guess COW isn't nearly as important for a system without forks. |
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| 10:33.31 | Ivanovic | and yeah, i expect a system to still respond when a program is in memory already even if there is high io load on the ide bus |
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| 10:33.59 | Ivanovic | with 4gb memory you can't tell me that it was already swapping for some surfing just because an installer was running |
| 10:34.03 | Ivanovic | this musn't happen! |
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| 11:22.01 | Waren | Yo |
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| 11:52.58 | sfb | kblin: ping |
| 11:53.02 | sfb | kai: ping |
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| 11:53.33 | adimania | it seems carol is back. |
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| 12:02.42 | kai | sfb: pong |
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| 12:06.34 | sfb | kai: Hi |
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| 12:13.30 | ihalip | !numapps |
| 12:13.34 | ihalip | aw :( |
| 12:17.33 | kai | ihalip: ~5500 students and ~350 mentoring orgs applied for GSoC 2010 |
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| 12:17.41 | ihalip | thanks |
| 12:17.51 | kai | np |
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| 12:18.36 | ojwb | the students figure is proposals rather than people, fwiw |
| 12:19.31 | topfs2 | wonder what the average proposal per student is |
| 12:19.37 | topfs2 | I just did the one atleast |
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| 12:19.49 | kai | right |
| 12:20.07 | ihalip | i have a colleague who said he submitted 9 proposals |
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| 12:21.00 | kai | I sort of doubt spray-n-pray works for anything besides machine guns |
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| 12:22.33 | topfs2 | yeah, that was kindof my thinking aswell. More fun to just find few which you really would love to do |
| 12:22.37 | ojwb | topfs2: IIRC it was about 2 last year |
| 12:22.42 | chethiya | hi |
| 12:22.44 | ojwb | maybe 2-3 |
| 12:22.48 | Upthorn | I've just done one this year |
| 12:22.50 | Upthorn | also last year |
| 12:22.51 | topfs2 | ojwb, ah ok, sounds like a reasonable number |
| 12:23.02 | chethiya | sorry |
| 12:23.19 | Upthorn | I was accepted last year, and the org I applied to this year recently granted me svn commit access |
| 12:23.25 | ojwb | looks to see if he has the number somewhere easy |
| 12:23.36 | Upthorn | so I think 1 is the best number. |
| 12:23.58 | topfs2 | Upthorn, which project? |
| 12:24.17 | ojwb | 5900 proposals from 3500 students for 2009 |
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| 12:24.31 | topfs2 | ojwb, thanx |
| 12:24.33 | ojwb | so less than 2 in fact |
| 12:24.45 | Upthorn | last year was scummvm, where I built an API to allow engine modules to ask the backend modules for higher bitdepths than 256 colors |
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| 12:25.28 | Upthorn | (helpful for later games built off Scumm forks, as well as Myst and Riven and some games on other engines) |
| 12:25.52 | topfs2 | cool! |
| 12:26.22 | topfs2 | love scummwm, given me hours of fun to play the old indianna jones games :) |
| 12:26.25 | Upthorn | this year is battle for wesnoth, where I hope to extend their custom scripting language to allow user content developers to save persistent information which is independent of savegames. |
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| 12:27.12 | Upthorn | so that they can allow for unlockable items on the player's second time through a campaign |
| 12:27.43 | Upthorn | or massively multiplayer metacampaigns where maps remember which side won the last time they were played |
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| 12:48.53 | gvallarelli | Hi Gsoccers! |
| 12:49.04 | ihalip | hey |
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| 13:15.09 | kai | Upthorn: cool stuff :) |
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| 13:44.13 | spsneo | !next |
| 13:44.37 | aghisla | (bot is asleep! ssshhh) |
| 13:45.23 | spsneo | aghisla: :D |
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| 13:46.01 | aghisla | we need it so badly and it SLEEPS |
| 13:47.46 | kai | spsneo: See the timeline at http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline |
| 13:48.01 | kai | I think !next is overrated |
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| 14:00.54 | yonij | hi |
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| 14:01.18 | mayanks43 | !next |
| 14:01.30 | kai | mayanks43: See the timeline at http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline |
| 14:01.55 | adimania | kai is our new bot now! |
| 14:01.59 | adimania | :P |
| 14:01.59 | _Samo | !timeline |
| 14:02.00 | yonij | kai, temporary bot? :) |
| 14:02.01 | aghisla | wow! |
| 14:02.08 | mayanks43 | ya |
| 14:02.30 | mayanks43 | durin better |
| 14:02.37 | aghisla | kaibot, answer only 1 of 10 commands :D |
| 14:02.44 | kai | :p |
| 14:03.08 | kai | other people could do the same, it's a simple alias setting in the irc client |
| 14:03.28 | mayanks43 | wht happened to socinfo |
| 14:03.37 | mayanks43 | still out? |
| 14:03.43 | aghisla | he died in a car crash |
| 14:03.45 | kai | volcanic ash |
| 14:03.51 | mayanks43 | oooo |
| 14:04.21 | aghisla | better: he's blocked in Heathrow |
| 14:04.26 | aghisla | without connection |
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| 14:06.43 | neh | !next |
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| 14:07.23 | aghisla | ok, you woke the bot up http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/funny-pictures-cat-is-awake-and-angry.jpg |
| 14:07.47 | kai | hm, I wonder if I can set up a script that gives a real answer to !next half of the time and kick the person the other half of the time |
| 14:08.16 | mayanks43 | :D |
| 14:08.57 | aghisla | kai: or at random, a botroulette |
| 14:09.13 | kai | well, that 50:50 thing would be random |
| 14:09.25 | neh | @kai :D |
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| 14:10.08 | adimania | I think a more funny way will be : next is you are going to be kicked from this channel. Have fun! |
| 14:10.09 | neh | I wonder if can write a script which joins channel wid a random name and asks !next every time ;) |
| 14:10.19 | x` | kai: that is no way to run a country. |
| 14:11.12 | kai | I'm running a country? |
| 14:11.15 | kai | cool |
| 14:11.33 | x` | how would Metallica's album be named in such an anarchy ... "Justice for a randomly selected half" ? |
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| 14:13.26 | kai | neh: I think it's easy to modify the kick script to do a kickban instead ;) |
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| 14:16.59 | BarryCarlyon | Time for some tea. |
| 14:17.02 | BarryCarlyon | puts the kettle on |
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| 14:27.34 | sandy_s | Hi, Is it necessary that you get review or a comment from your mentors/organization during this scrutiny period? |
| 14:28.03 | smtms | it is not |
| 14:28.11 | smtms | however, better orgs do it |
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| 14:29.48 | sandy_s | smtms: Oh. The application still stands a chance right? |
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| 14:30.02 | smtms | it does |
| 14:30.12 | sandy_s | okay |
| 14:30.58 | sandy_s | slightly assuring.Thanks. |
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| 15:26.28 | thebolt | Afternoon |
| 15:26.38 | kblin | afternoon thebolt |
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| 15:28.33 | thebolt | hm.. need to decide on a company name by end of the day today :P |
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| 15:29.48 | skbohra | deciding name is tricky |
| 15:30.34 | thebolt | well, i basically have two names i am choosing between right now.. and it is never intended to be a "public" company in any way really.. |
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| 15:32.16 | kblin | Svanfeldt Inc. ? |
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| 15:34.01 | thebolt | kblin: nah.. first of all Inc. is american.. in sweden you have to have "AB" or"Aktiebolag" (which means share-issuing company) in the name |
| 15:34.18 | thebolt | second, my last name is pretty uncommon, which means that I probably couldn't get it registered like that |
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| 15:35.21 | thebolt | right now i have "Blue Carrot AB" or "Blind Silicon AB" ;) |
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| 15:40.03 | kblin | Blue Silicon has the advantage of abbrevating to BS, like bullshit ;) |
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| 15:40.29 | thebolt | Blind Silicon as well ;) |
| 15:40.52 | kblin | er, right |
| 15:40.53 | kblin | whatever |
| 15:41.12 | thebolt | (there are "kinds" of silicon wafers called "blue silicon" and "black silicon" so ;) |
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| 15:44.52 | kblin | d'oh, missed carols |
| 15:45.00 | kblin | small time window in any case |
| 15:45.26 | thebolt | very small :P |
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| 15:45.49 | aamir_ | hello |
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| 15:46.48 | kblin | I forgot how much fun horsetrading for slots was |
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| 15:48.16 | thebolt | hehe |
| 15:48.31 | thebolt | i bet :) |
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| 15:54.44 | Chetan | hi, |
| 15:55.12 | Chetan | i have a question abt the dedup process.. |
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| 16:05.29 | kblin | Chetan: don't ask to ask, just ask |
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| 16:06.10 | Chetan | I am curious about how it works.. |
| 16:06.16 | Chetan | if you can give any details.. |
| 16:06.27 | Chetan | what happens before the IRC meeting |
| 16:07.27 | kblin | well, I guess in the next days melange will show which students are "pending acceptance" in multiple orgs |
| 16:08.02 | kblin | then the org administrators of the orgs involved would have a chat about which org the student should go to |
| 16:08.12 | kblin | this might or might not include asking the student |
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| 16:14.00 | yonij | !logs |
| 16:14.15 | yonij | were do we get the logs? |
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| 16:15.27 | cellofellow | hi |
| 16:15.45 | Chetan | kblin: shdn't that be already over, considering we have the irc meeting in two days? |
| 16:17.01 | kblin | Chetan: I don't think collision detection is turned on yet |
| 16:17.35 | skbohra | sounds like some physics experiment :D |
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| 16:17.50 | Chetan | cool... thanks for the info :) |
| 16:18.00 | yonij | kblin , can you give the gsoc logs link |
| 16:18.36 | skbohra | !logs |
| 16:18.40 | skbohra | oops |
| 16:18.52 | yonij | :( |
| 16:19.37 | bawr | skbohra: Or a game engine in early stages of development. :) |
| 16:20.40 | kblin | yonij: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23gsoc/ |
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| 16:20.52 | yonij | kblin, thanx :) |
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| 16:22.09 | kimelto | morning! |
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| 16:24.00 | cellofellow | so, what's going on right now in the GSoC process? Time to submit proposals? |
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| 16:25.21 | adimania | time to submit proposals will start in a few months for GSoC 2011. |
| 16:25.33 | cellofellow | so I missed it? |
| 16:25.53 | cellofellow | student proposals, I mean, not mentor proposals. |
| 16:25.57 | sfb | Yes, you missed it. |
| 16:26.01 | sfb | !timeline |
| 16:26.01 | yonij | ya...rit |
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| 16:26.14 | yonij | http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/timeline |
| 16:26.18 | yonij | :) |
| 16:26.29 | sfb | (= |
| 16:26.39 | cellofellow | ah, darn |
| 16:27.06 | yonij | dont worry man ,next time |
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| 16:27.30 | kblin | and of course you don't need gsoc to get started with open source |
| 16:27.50 | cellofellow | kblin: yeah, but I don't get paid for it. :P |
| 16:28.13 | adimania | try for Season of KDE or Fedora Summer Coding |
| 16:28.20 | kblin | so? I don't get paid for it either |
| 16:28.37 | anth_x | what is this "paid" you speak of? |
| 16:28.44 | adimania | of course you might not get paid. |
| 16:28.48 | cellofellow | oh, nvm. |
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| 16:29.11 | yonij | Its motivation , not payment that google do i suppose |
| 16:29.11 | downeym | Are any mentors getting a lot of 500 errors when viewing student proposals? |
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| 16:29.32 | anth_x | i can see the list fine, but not any individual ones. |
| 16:29.39 | Ivanovic | downeym: happens every now and then, but really seldom |
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| 16:30.26 | downeym | Since Carol's e-mail earlier, I'm getting them nearly constantly |
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| 16:31.18 | sfb | downeym: Which one? About duplication? |
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| 16:32.15 | downeym | sfb: yeah |
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| 16:39.45 | _Samo | downeym, server error here as well |
| 16:40.02 | borja | here too, plus all the duplicates have disappeared from our list |
| 16:40.12 | Wolf_OSGeo | gack! I get Erro 500 when I try to view a proposal, does it work for other admins/mentors? |
| 16:40.14 | borja | (we had two duplicates) |
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| 16:40.21 | Wolf_OSGeo | ah I see I'm no alone... |
| 16:40.34 | borja | yeah, there's definitely something wrong with Melange right now |
| 16:40.58 | Wolf_OSGeo | it's the dupes script? |
| 16:41.23 | borja | I'm assuming that's what caused it. I was able to see the duplicates for a short while, though |
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| 16:41.38 | borja | but now the duplicates have disappeared and I can't see individual proposals |
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| 16:42.39 | _Samo | GSoC site is updating right now, isn't it? |
| 16:42.48 | adimania | Sorry for interrupting but I think you guys should tell this to guys at #melange too. |
| 16:42.51 | _Samo | *updating status |
| 16:43.12 | Chetan | what makes you say that? |
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| 16:44.04 | Wolf_OSGeo | borja: where did the duplicates show up? is it per application or are they collected somewhere? |
| 16:44.05 | _Samo | yes the first duplication cross cheching has been done |
| 16:44.31 | _Samo | and organisations already have a first result |
| 16:44.40 | borja | Wolf_OSGeo: in the "Status" column |
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| 16:45.00 | Wolf_OSGeo | borja: all right! now I see them too |
| 16:45.01 | borja | Wolf_OSGeo: It showed up as "Duplicate" in bright red and, if I clicked on the proposal, I could see what the duplicate orgs were |
| 16:45.24 | Wolf_OSGeo | ohh.. /me wants! |
| 16:45.26 | borja | oh, seems to be fixed now |
| 16:45.30 | borja | I can see proposals again |
| 16:45.52 | borja | wait, no |
| 16:45.55 | borja | 500 Server Error again |
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| 16:46.25 | Wolf_OSGeo | borja: me too, but at least I no know which proposals have dupes |
| 16:46.44 | borja | Wolf_OSGeo: well, the weird thing is that now it shows more duplicates than after Carol's e-mail |
| 16:47.07 | Wolf_OSGeo | half of our applications have duplicates? |
| 16:47.26 | borja | Wolf_OSGeo: I'm in two orgs, and in one of them all of the proposals showed up as duplicates |
| 16:47.29 | Wolf_OSGeo | that's a record. So far we have had at most 1... |
| 16:47.32 | borja | Wolf_OSGeo: And now only one shows up as a duplicate |
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| 16:47.43 | borja | Wolf_OSGeo: so I wouldn't trust what socghop says right now |
| 16:47.44 | Wolf_OSGeo | borja: sounds funky |
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| 16:47.58 | borja | nods to Wolf_OSGeo |
| 16:48.35 | Wolf_OSGeo | borja: has your slot count changed. Ours has gone up by one, I assume it is since we asked for more slots... |
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| 16:48.58 | borja | Our slot count hasn't changed |
| 16:48.59 | Ivanovic | looks like wesnoth (for the top slots) tends to attract those that are not proposing (or accepted) at other ords |
| 16:49.02 | Ivanovic | s/ords/orgs |
| 16:49.14 | borja | We did request more slots, though, but maybe we just didn't get any ;-) |
| 16:49.15 | Ivanovic | so far we had zweo duplicates |
| 16:49.28 | Ivanovic | (nothing in the last two years and so far no dupe this year) |
| 16:50.27 | smtms | the worst students, that are not accepted at other orgs, are accepted by Wesnoth :-P |
| 16:50.49 | Wolf_OSGeo | odd now my gmail shows 2 new messages for a label, but 3 conversations are highlighted.... |
| 16:50.55 | Ivanovic | or we challange our good students this much that they don't have the time to apply to another org |
| 16:50.57 | Ivanovic | ;) |
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| 16:51.32 | kblin | mlankhorst: poke |
| 16:51.56 | Chetan | is this visible to mentors? |
| 16:51.58 | borja | I'm still getting 500 server error when looking at proposals |
| 16:52.06 | borja | interestingly enough, not if I click on duplicate proposals |
| 16:52.09 | Chetan | the duplicate students? |
| 16:52.15 | *** part/#gsoc Abhilash (~Aswarth@121.242.23.197) |
| 16:52.20 | Chetan | or only to mentors? |
| 16:52.25 | Chetan | *org admins |
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| 16:52.52 | Ivanovic | should be visible to mentors |
| 16:52.53 | Mek | duplicate students is also visible to mentors, but info about other org isn't |
| 16:53.03 | Ivanovic | since mentors probably got the same info shown as admins |
| 16:53.07 | evdk | I just put this bug report online: http://code.google.com/p/soc/issues/detail?id=888 |
| 16:53.21 | evdk | I get 500 server error whenever I open a student proposal |
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| 16:53.31 | evdk | I am mentor and org admin |
| 16:53.41 | borja | evdk: lots of people are experiencing this |
| 16:53.44 | evdk | is it just me or does everyone have this problem |
| 16:53.46 | evdk | ah, ok |
| 16:53.51 | borja | evdk: I've mentioned it on #melange but haven't gotten a reply yet |
| 16:54.00 | evdk | borja: thx |
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| 16:54.06 | evdk | hope it gets fixed soon |
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| 16:56.05 | Wolf_OSGeo | for me it works on *some* dupes, most spinn for a while before returning 500 |
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| 16:57.49 | Wolf_OSGeo | hmh 1/5 links work... |
| 16:58.12 | evdk | I hope there are more bugs in the duplicate script, would be horrible if all those students are indeed suplicate |
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| 16:59.06 | mlankhorst | kblin: pong |
| 16:59.33 | kblin | do the dups work for you and show you the org admin? |
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| 17:06.36 | Nightrose | works here |
| 17:06.42 | Nightrose | kblin: ^ |
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| 17:08.49 | Dark_Shikari | !next |
| 17:08.53 | Dark_Shikari | meh, bot still down. |
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| 17:15.47 | meonkeys | I can't view any proposals... anyone else having problems? |
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| 17:16.24 | MatthewWilkes | meonkeys: Yeah, the melange team know about it and are looking |
| 17:16.33 | meonkeys | cool, thanks. |
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| 17:16.50 | MatthewWilkes | meonkeys: It seems there is a bug in the duplicate detection code AND a suspected outage at google's datastore |
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| 17:17.28 | smtms | will students be affected? |
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| 17:19.07 | MatthewWilkes | Maybe, not sure. It'll be fixed soon though, I'm sure. It needs to be. |
| 17:19.56 | meonkeys | :) |
| 17:20.08 | ajuonline | smtms: pretty sure, no animal or human life will be affected by this outage ;) ( hi! btw ) |
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| 17:30.11 | SRabbelier | meonkeys: fixed now |
| 17:30.25 | meonkeys | wow, thanks! |
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| 17:42.13 | x` | Wolf_OSGeo: ping |
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| 17:44.03 | DraX | so duplicate reconciliation when/how does that happen? |
| 17:44.08 | xb95 | melange tells me none of our students have duplicate accepts. but it tells one of my mentors that ALL of our students are dupes. |
| 17:44.23 | xb95 | anybody else seeing this.. uh.. interesting and quirky behavior? |
| 17:44.24 | DraX | i'm seeing all of our students as duplicates as well |
| 17:44.30 | anth_x | same |
| 17:44.45 | SRabbelier | xb95: as soon as the process finishes running that'll be fixed |
| 17:44.53 | SRabbelier | give it a few more minutes |
| 17:44.56 | xb95 | SRabbelier: ah frabjous day, thanks! |
| 17:45.02 | SRabbelier | :) |
| 17:45.08 | dho_plan9 | Cool |
| 17:45.26 | SRabbelier | (of course it's our fail that it 1. throws away data before finishing calculating the new data 2. show every accepted student as duplicate if it has no data) |
| 17:47.00 | Mek | and 3. that it takes minutes to run a process that is at most quadratic in the number of slots? or is that more an appspot fail |
| 17:47.38 | DraX | ok, they're all pending acceptance now |
| 17:47.41 | DraX | does that mean no dupes? |
| 17:47.50 | xb95 | DraX: mine say all pending, but I know I have two dupes |
| 17:47.55 | xb95 | although I haven't refreshed in 3 minutes |
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| 17:48.00 | xb95 | refresh |
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| 17:48.09 | DraX | i just refreshed now and went from all-dopes to all-pending |
| 17:48.14 | xb95 | oh, mine show two dupes now |
| 17:48.17 | DraX | s/dopes/dupes/ |
| 17:48.21 | xb95 | it looks like it's done -- at least with my org |
| 17:48.22 | dho_plan9 | lol |
| 17:48.33 | xb95 | SO MANY GOOD STUDENTS |
| 17:48.40 | meonkeys | indeed! |
| 17:48.41 | dho_plan9 | "All dopes" is classic. |
| 17:48.49 | dho_plan9 | xb95: Yeah, this year has been great. |
| 17:48.49 | DraX | indeed |
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| 17:49.20 | DraX | oddly we found it a little lower than usual; we only actually wanted the number of students we got slots for |
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| 17:49.42 | xb95 | we got fewer slots than we wanted, so we've been agonizing :) |
| 17:49.48 | YuviPanda | wonders if anyone from GNOME is around |
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| 17:49.51 | SRabbelier | it's done |
| 17:49.52 | dho_plan9 | We got many less applications than last year, but more well-done proposals |
| 17:50.06 | SRabbelier | Mek: we have 5500 proposals, thank you very much |
| 17:50.20 | SRabbelier | Mek: iterating over that many entities in AppEngine is slow |
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| 17:50.30 | Mek | okay, appengine fail then |
| 17:50.37 | SRabbelier | Mek: and that'ss running an O(n) algorithm |
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| 17:56.20 | AshishG | hey! is anyone here in a position to suggest how likely does google change the prospective slots allotted to an org? |
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| 17:57.25 | SRabbelier | AshishG: sure, not very likely |
| 17:57.38 | SRabbelier | AshishG: unless someone gives up a slot to the pool the allocations stay as they are now |
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| 17:57.59 | AshishG | SRabbelier: oh! thanks a lot. helps :) |
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| 17:58.52 | Nightrose | anyone from sunlight foundation around? |
| 17:59.11 | SRabbelier | !irc |
| 17:59.13 | SRabbelier | hmm |
| 17:59.26 | SRabbelier | the bot is dead again :P |
| 17:59.30 | Nightrose | hehe |
| 17:59.32 | SRabbelier | Nightrose: anyway, try their IRC channel |
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| 17:59.48 | Nightrose | SRabbelier: nah - i'll just email them later about the duplicate |
| 17:59.54 | Nightrose | was just hoping to be lucky |
| 18:00.11 | SRabbelier | Nightrose: ok :) |
| 18:00.12 | Nightrose | has 3 by now... narf |
| 18:00.26 | SRabbelier | Nightrose: ouch! |
| 18:00.40 | Nightrose | yea - big fun especially as we'd rather keep them all :D |
| 18:00.47 | Nightrose | definitely 2 of them |
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| 18:30.15 | Nightrose | SRabbelier: i take it the duplicate note is not realtime? i just got an email from the other org saying they voted up another student instead but it still shows as duplicate here |
| 18:30.26 | Lennie | yeah it is not realtime |
| 18:30.30 | Lennie | because it is very complicated :) |
| 18:30.32 | Nightrose | ok thx |
| 18:30.34 | Nightrose | np |
| 18:30.36 | Nightrose | just making sure |
| 18:30.41 | Lennie | at least on this scale it is |
| 18:30.45 | Nightrose | hehe ok |
| 18:30.49 | Lennie | it is on an hourly update |
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| 18:30.54 | Nightrose | k |
| 18:31.02 | Lennie | at least you can see it this year as org admin D: |
| 18:31.03 | Lennie | :D |
| 18:31.11 | Lennie | instead of having LH to tell you |
| 18:31.13 | Nightrose | hehe |
| 18:31.13 | SRabbelier | at least you can see it in regular updates this year ;) |
| 18:31.17 | Nightrose | yea |
| 18:31.21 | Nightrose | not complaining :) |
| 18:31.28 | Lennie | complaints are welcome |
| 18:31.31 | Lennie | praises as well :D |
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| 18:31.37 | Nightrose | haha |
| 18:31.41 | Nightrose | hands out some cookies |
| 18:31.59 | Lennie | so Carol turned on the duplicates :D? |
| 18:32.16 | Nightrose | yea an hour ago or two |
| 18:32.53 | jones | hello i had submitted some proposals only from few i got comments and updates and from remaining i have got nothing |
| 18:33.04 | Lennie | depends on the org jones |
| 18:33.05 | jones | so what does it mean? |
| 18:33.06 | Ivanovic | and in the "view all student proposals" page a mentor/admin should see those proposals that are a duplicate marked somehow, so it would not be a "Pending acceptance", right? |
| 18:33.17 | Lennie | only admins will see it |
| 18:33.24 | Ivanovic | (just making sure that we really don't have dupes (again)) |
| 18:33.28 | Ivanovic | Lennie: i am admin |
| 18:33.29 | Lennie | it will say Duplicate in bold red in the list |
| 18:33.33 | Lennie | if it is deemed to be one |
| 18:33.45 | Ivanovic | i just got the top X (with mentors assigned) in lovely green |
| 18:33.50 | Lennie | then you are good |
| 18:33.51 | Lennie | for now ;) |
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| 18:34.09 | jones | lennie:means how do iknow about the tsatus of my proposal |
| 18:34.21 | ajuonline | Lennie: all safe and sound? |
| 18:34.47 | SRabbelier | jones: ask your org, duh? |
| 18:34.52 | Ivanovic | jones: as student: you don't unless a mentor/admin talks to you |
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| 18:35.11 | SRabbelier | jones: communication is a very important part of GSoC |
| 18:35.25 | Ivanovic | jones: and don't expect any "yeah, your in" or "yeah, you are not in" unless you are in a duplicate sitution |
| 18:35.26 | jones | so means what shpuld i do now |
| 18:35.32 | jones | *should |
| 18:35.39 | Ivanovic | where the admins *might* ask you which proposal you prefer working on |
| 18:35.52 | Ivanovic | at the moment you should communicate with your possible org |
| 18:36.05 | Ivanovic | show them that you are good and a possible long term contributor |
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| 18:36.11 | Ivanovic | (hint: patches are always welcome!) |
| 18:37.01 | SRabbelier | jones: be patient, hack on Melange, hack on your org's software |
| 18:37.15 | jones | so shall i communicate in their irc |
| 18:37.31 | Ivanovic | whatever the org prefers as communication |
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| 18:37.40 | jones | srabbelier:hack it? |
| 18:37.41 | Ivanovic | for many this is irc, for some it might be a forum or a mailling list |
| 18:37.48 | SRabbelier | jones: write code for it |
| 18:37.50 | smtms | Ivanovic, is there a possibility for a duplicate student to not be accepted in the end? |
| 18:37.52 | Ivanovic | hacking as coding on it and improving things |
| 18:38.05 | jones | means improving my base code |
| 18:38.08 | jones | ri8 |
| 18:38.08 | Ivanovic | smtms: very, very unlikely |
| 18:38.11 | SRabbelier | smtms: sometimes, it has happened before, but that's not intended |
| 18:39.26 | Ivanovic | smtms: in theory you should be "safe in" if you created a duplicate |
| 18:39.27 | smtms | SRabbelier, you mean the mistake where two orgs disown the student? |
| 18:39.38 | Ivanovic | since both do really want you |
| 18:39.58 | Ivanovic | but, due to "whatever" strange things you might of course also end not in |
| 18:40.05 | Ivanovic | chances for this happening are really low though |
| 18:41.59 | SRabbelier | smtms: right, I'm not sure what exactly the order of events was, but it has happened before; everybody tries hard each year to prevent that from happeneing though |
| 18:42.49 | Ivanovic | it probably does require some severe communication problems combined with some bad clicking |
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| 19:09.04 | Lennie | frowns |
| 19:09.10 | Lennie | there are orgs out there with in-org duplicates :P |
| 19:09.21 | Lennie | and there is one student with 4 possible accepted proposals :D |
| 19:09.45 | thebolt | haha |
| 19:09.52 | Nightrose | Oo |
| 19:10.10 | vegard | wow. |
| 19:10.18 | Nightrose | we've had two in-org dups but resolved them a few days ago |
| 19:10.31 | Lennie | yeah |
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| 19:10.34 | Lennie | there are a lot less of them :) |
| 19:10.43 | Lennie | we turned it on a few days ago |
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| 19:10.47 | Lennie | just to see if it would work |
| 19:10.54 | Nightrose | 4 possible accepted proposals is quite something though... |
| 19:11.00 | Nightrose | ah hehe |
| 19:11.04 | Lennie | (which it didn't :P) |
| 19:11.08 | Nightrose | lol |
| 19:11.14 | Lennie | apparently db.delete() only works on 500 entities max |
| 19:11.21 | Lennie | while everything else in appengine is 1000 max :P |
| 19:11.25 | Nightrose | fun |
| 19:11.26 | Lennie | but that was a quick fix |
| 19:11.45 | Lennie | anyway there were a large number of in-org duplicates then |
| 19:11.51 | Lennie | but the list has now grown a lot |
| 19:11.57 | Lennie | with between-org dupes |
| 19:12.06 | Lennie | I daresay it is more then last year |
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| 19:12.20 | Nightrose | i think we didn't have any last year |
| 19:12.21 | Nightrose | and now 3 |
| 19:12.25 | Nightrose | well down to 2 now |
| 19:12.28 | marcheu | hi, will the deduplication meeting happen here? |
| 19:12.34 | Nightrose | marcheu: yes likely |
| 19:12.41 | Lennie | probably another channel marcheu |
| 19:12.47 | Lennie | however you will find the details here :) |
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| 19:13.11 | Nightrose | ah not like previous years? |
| 19:13.14 | umashanthi1 | Lennie: when will that happen? |
| 19:13.20 | Lennie | what happen? |
| 19:13.24 | Lennie | !timeline |
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| 19:13.31 | Lennie | no bot :(? |
| 19:13.47 | umashanthi1 | Lennie: resolving duplicates |
| 19:13.53 | Lennie | it is happening now |
| 19:13.59 | Lennie | since it is visible to org admins |
| 19:14.10 | Lennie | but the real meeting is April 21st |
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| 19:14.22 | Lennie | possible 20.00 UTC (not sure) |
| 19:14.36 | aghisla | no bot Lennie.. he died in a netsplit :,( |
| 19:14.39 | umashanthi1 | Lennie: ok |
| 19:14.40 | Lennie | hmm, 20.00 CET that is sorry |
| 19:14.47 | Lennie | netsplit ftl |
| 19:14.57 | marcheu | okay thanks, I will hang in there then |
| 19:15.20 | Lennie | In the meantime, poke your org admin if you see duplicates in the list :) |
| 19:15.49 | umashanthi1 | Lennie: will the in-org duplicates resolved before that? |
| 19:15.56 | Lennie | well |
| 19:16.03 | Lennie | I hope orgs are smart enough to make that happen |
| 19:16.10 | Lennie | I can't force them to :P |
| 19:16.30 | kblin | hey there |
| 19:16.34 | Lennie | hi kblin |
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| 19:16.57 | kblin | hey Lennie, how's life? |
| 19:17.32 | Lennie | busy |
| 19:17.32 | Lennie | getting a visa for my internship in aussie land |
| 19:17.32 | Lennie | and trying to figure out what to do for my master thesis :P |
| 19:17.37 | Lennie | oh and there is this thing called GSoC |
| 19:17.43 | Lennie | so how are you :D? |
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| 19:25.19 | pygi | Lennie, what's the name of the student with 4 possible accepted proposals? :D |
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| 19:26.18 | josipl | (pygi, we know it's you, no need to pretend :P) |
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| 19:27.22 | pygi | josipl, ha-ha |
| 19:27.23 | pygi | :D |
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| 19:29.30 | YuviPanda | thought pygi was the Python GObject-Introspection bindings :| |
| 19:29.47 | pygi | YuviPanda, GNOME project stole my nick |
| 19:29.49 | pygi | I know :( |
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| 19:32.36 | YuviPanda | pygi: i really thought you were maybe the guy who wrote that |
| 19:32.38 | YuviPanda | is lame |
| 19:33.02 | marcheu | so, I have this student, and I know he's submitted a duplicate proposal. why doesn't he appear as such in the list? is that because he doesn't currently have a slot? |
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| 19:36.42 | pygi | YuviPanda, :D |
| 19:36.52 | micahcowan | marcheu, you mean, not show up at all, or not show up as a dupe? Coz the dupes seem to have suddenly been deactivated again (hopefully just temporary) |
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| 19:37.06 | pygi | ChipX86, poke |
| 19:37.12 | marcheu | micahcowan: doesns't show up as dupe yes |
| 19:37.34 | ChipX86 | pygi: hey |
| 19:37.43 | Lennie | micahcowan: it is updating |
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| 19:37.47 | Lennie | next version will tell you it is doing so :) |
| 19:38.01 | micahcowan | Lennie, that was my guess. Thanks! |
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| 19:38.06 | Lennie | also |
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| 19:38.14 | Lennie | dupes only show up if the proposal is a real duplicate |
| 19:38.23 | Lennie | in other words if two (or more) orgs would accept it |
| 19:38.28 | Lennie | not just because he send in two or more proposals |
| 19:38.36 | danderson | sorry about the re-outage of socinfo. I thought I'd set it to autostart on reboot, and rebooted to get a kernel upgrade. Won't happen again. |
| 19:38.41 | marcheu | ah ok thanks |
| 19:38.42 | kblin | gives socinfo a cookie |
| 19:39.00 | kblin | danderson: no worries, my aliases were still set up :) |
| 19:39.55 | kblin | danderson: though I was admittedly considering writing an irssi script that told people about !next 50% of the time and kicked them from the channel the other 50% |
| 19:40.16 | Lennie | I still like the issue in our tracker last year |
| 19:40.16 | Lennie | f |
| 19:40.21 | Lennie | or every !next we up the deadline with one minute |
| 19:40.27 | Lennie | on the announcement |
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| 19:41.55 | kblin | somebody marked that as won't fix |
| 19:42.01 | kblin | I'm still deeply hurt |
| 19:42.47 | aghisla | oh socinfo is back from his second death |
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| 19:43.30 | umashanthi1 | Any Apache Software Foundation admins here? |
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| 19:44.26 | Lennie | I'm off |
| 19:44.26 | Lennie | ttyl |
| 19:44.30 | danderson | !anyone |
| 19:44.31 | socinfo | "anyone" is Instead of looking for mentors from specific projects here, you will likely get much better results by speaking to that mentoring organization themselves. You can find the org's contact info by clicking on their name in the list at: http://socghop.appspot.com/gsoc/program/accepted_orgs/google/gsoc2010 |
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| 19:54.17 | emmanuelp | !timeline |
| 19:54.17 | socinfo | "timeline" is (#1) http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline, or (#2) for the visually oriented: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mRuBILD0TjI/S6tGHR4mM3I/AAAAAAAACbw/tftJozZHs-0/s1600/gsoc10timeline.JPG |
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| 20:09.08 | SRabbelier | danderson: ah, that's the one :P |
| 20:09.12 | SRabbelier | danderson: I thought itw as !irc or something |
| 20:09.18 | SRabbelier | danderson: (and socinfo was dead too when I tried) |
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| 20:12.33 | aghisla | be careful with socinfo, he's still very weak |
| 20:12.56 | Ophiuchi | chicken soup for the bot's soul? |
| 20:13.07 | SRabbelier | Ophiuchi: and chocolate |
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| 20:15.16 | akashv | !next |
| 20:15.16 | socinfo | "next" is Student applications are closed. Be ready to respond to comments on and about your proposal. Accepted student proposals will be announced at http://socghop.appspot.com on April 26: 19:00 UTC. |
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| 20:21.25 | xb95 | I'm so confused, I thought the 'rank' thing would let us rank the students manually. |
| 20:21.35 | SRabbelier | xb95: it does! |
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| 20:21.48 | xb95 | I entered 7 on someone (rank them #7) but it instead gave the person 1 point and they're now in 3rd place or something. |
| 20:21.49 | SRabbelier | xb95: just realise that it can change the score of only one proposal at a time |
| 20:22.01 | SRabbelier | xb95: are they tied with others that have the same amount of points? |
| 20:22.17 | xb95 | Yeah, there's a lot of ties at the top. |
| 20:22.22 | SRabbelier | xb95: well there you go ;) |
| 20:22.32 | xb95 | ...this is counter-intuitive. |
| 20:22.37 | SRabbelier | xb95: no really, it's not :P |
| 20:22.40 | xb95 | If I say #7 I expect the Rank column on the left to say #7. |
| 20:22.42 | SRabbelier | xb95: it just changes the score of the proposal |
| 20:22.46 | xb95 | And the student to be in 7th position. |
| 20:22.49 | SRabbelier | xb95: it doesn't override everything |
| 20:22.58 | xb95 | That's what I expected to happen. :-) |
| 20:23.17 | SRabbelier | xb95: but doesn't it make sense now that you know how it works? :) |
| 20:23.36 | xb95 | I have to say.. not really. Because if I say 'rank this person #2', it is going to bump them up to tie with 1st... |
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| 20:26.50 | SRabbelier | xb95: well, if you have any idea on how to make it work better, please let us know! |
| 20:26.52 | kblin | hm |
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| 20:27.16 | kblin | SRabbelier: can you point lennie at http://www.freeclipartnow.com/signs-symbols/stars/smooth-star.jpg.html ? ;) |
| 20:27.17 | SRabbelier | xb95: keep in mind the restriction that you can only change one score at a time |
| 20:27.27 | xb95 | SRabbelier: besides a hard-coded override? 'if admin says rank 7th, then this proposal is in 7th, irrespective of the rest'? |
| 20:27.30 | SRabbelier | kblin: heheh, what for? |
| 20:27.41 | SRabbelier | xb95: what if they say that for two proposals? |
| 20:27.56 | xb95 | then it says 'error, you already said 7th for Student Foo' |
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| 20:28.11 | xb95 | unique key on admin-specified rank |
| 20:28.13 | SRabbelier | xb95: how would you easily add someone to the top? |
| 20:28.29 | SRabbelier | xb95: say you decide you need to add someone into your top-n proposals |
| 20:28.45 | SRabbelier | xb95: you can't just say "make them #n", since those have already been assigned |
| 20:29.04 | kblin | SRabbelier: I didn't get around to draw one myself so far |
| 20:29.18 | xb95 | 'error, someone is already in 7th position. would you like to insert Student Foo above or below Student Bar?' |
| 20:29.26 | xb95 | [Insert Above] [Insert Below]/ |
| 20:29.28 | xb95 | [Cancel] |
| 20:29.34 | xb95 | then it just adjusts the rankings |
| 20:29.49 | kblin | SRabbelier: it's so we can star proposals from the table, instead of clicking our way into the list to click "subscribe" |
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| 20:30.50 | SRabbelier | kblin: oh, hehe, I think we can use the Google star, or did Lennie say wae can't? |
| 20:31.06 | SRabbelier | xb95: it can't, you can change only one at a time |
| 20:31.18 | xb95 | SRabbelier: truth be told, I'd change the process of finalization rather significantly. the ranking is great for figuring out what your mentors think are good proposals (and actually I have some feedback on where the existing ranking/points fails for our use case)... but after that, whoever is doing the acceptances (org admin) should have the ability to say 'put this in our accept list' and then reorder that |
| 20:31.30 | xb95 | SRabbelier: that's a code constraint that could be fixed, I'm certain? |
| 20:31.49 | SRabbelier | xb95: no, consider the casee of gnome |
| 20:31.53 | SRabbelier | xb95: that has 100 proposals |
| 20:31.57 | SRabbelier | you can't just edit 100 poroposals in one go |
| 20:31.59 | xb95 | my org has 68 proposals. |
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| 20:32.09 | xb95 | it's been rough. |
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| 20:32.47 | xb95 | SRabbelier: and it's easy to code around anyway. internally, have the rankings be non-integer. so when they say '7' and it's a dupe, you ask 'above or below', and then you put the internal ranking as 6.9 or 7.1. display can be done fairly easily from that, sort on the Rank, and then just print the integer values. |
| 20:32.53 | xb95 | programmatically, these are easily solvable problems. |
| 20:33.21 | kblin | xb95: actually this came up last year, and at the mentor summit |
| 20:33.38 | xb95 | yeah? |
| 20:33.43 | SRabbelier | xb95: no one solution fits every org |
| 20:33.43 | kblin | and we agreed to disagree and left things pretty much the same as they were |
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| 20:34.39 | kblin | hm, how do I update mercurial to the current head of the repository? |
| 20:34.44 | xb95 | I'm hard pressed to imagine that the current solution fits any org with more than a dozen proposals. are there people who actually think the existing system works perfectly for their needs? |
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| 20:35.23 | kblin | given that most orgs probably have way less than 12 slots... ;) |
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| 20:35.29 | xb95 | well we only have 6 slots |
| 20:35.38 | Catfish_Man | kblin: hg pull -u? |
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| 20:36.21 | kblin | Catfish_Man: perfec, thanks |
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| 20:37.33 | xb95 | SRabbelier: also, curiousity compels me to ask, why is it difficult for the system to set points on 100 proposals in one go anyway? |
| 20:38.14 | SRabbelier | xb95: it's too slow |
| 20:38.26 | SRabbelier | xb95: AppEngine isn't designed for what we're abusing it for |
| 20:38.47 | SRabbelier | (we'll send a mail to the list sometime soon explaining it's limitations, how we're working around those, to give a better picture of why things are the way they are) |
| 20:38.57 | xb95 | I worked at Google, I know the underlying architecture (BigTable et al). It shouldn't be a problem. That's unfortunate. :| |
| 20:40.12 | SRabbelier | xb95: 100 entities is getting to be a problem |
| 20:40.49 | SRabbelier | xb95: we could probably get away with something around 20 or 30; anyway, we don't do any batch puts, anywhere, unless it's in a Task that knows to reschedule itself when the deadline is reached |
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| 20:41.58 | xb95 | well, you have the data and I'm just conjecturing. thanks for taking the time to talk. I'll watch for that mail and will jump on it and see if we can't improve this for next year. :) |
| 20:42.12 | Mek | so is switching to a different/better storage layer too much work, or just not an option? |
| 20:42.45 | xb95 | appengine doesn't really give you options there |
| 20:43.02 | SRabbelier | Mek: what xb95 said, there's no options with AppEngine |
| 20:43.06 | SRabbelier | and we must run on AppEngine :) |
| 20:43.24 | Mek | you're an opensource project, if you decide to switch away from appengine, it's not your problem :P |
| 20:43.30 | SRabbelier | Mek: yes, yes it would be |
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| 20:43.50 | SRabbelier | Mek: GOSPO is our 'employer' whichever way you look at it, and GSoC/GHOP are our projects |
| 20:44.04 | SRabbelier | Mek: it doesn't make sense to change Melange where they can't use it anymoer :P |
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| 20:46.16 | Jiminy_Cricket | when solving duplications I hope orgs can not alternatively opt for students that have been already selected |
| 20:46.38 | Jiminy_Cricket | if not, this is the never ending story |
| 20:46.47 | kblin | sure they can, would be less fun otherwise |
| 20:47.22 | kblin | Jiminy_Cricket: the average student submitted less than two proposals |
| 20:47.37 | kblin | so the system will converge to a stable state |
| 20:48.21 | Jiminy_Cricket | does less than two proposals equals to 1? |
| 20:48.29 | SRabbelier | Jiminy_Cricket: or 0 ;) |
| 20:49.06 | smtms | kblin, even if all students submitted 20 proposals, the system will sooner or later converge |
| 20:49.26 | kblin | Jiminy_Cricket: well, last year ~3500 students submitted ~5900 proposals |
| 20:49.45 | Jiminy_Cricket | ok I see what you mean |
| 20:50.04 | Jiminy_Cricket | that's less than 2 proposals |
| 20:50.29 | kblin | smtms: that's assuming students are picked along an equal distribution |
| 20:50.38 | Jiminy_Cricket | although I wish the syste could converge by itself |
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| 20:50.53 | smtms | kblin, what worst case do you have in mind? |
| 20:50.54 | Jiminy_Cricket | now it is manual converging |
| 20:51.39 | SRabbelier | Jiminy_Cricket: which is good, we dont want a random selection of the students ;) |
| 20:51.45 | kblin | smtms: there's 500 good students for 1000 slots |
| 20:51.49 | Jiminy_Cricket | hum... |
| 20:52.01 | kblin | smtms: that'd be my worst case ;) |
| 20:52.13 | Jiminy_Cricket | well I can already image a system that automatically converge |
| 20:52.18 | Jiminy_Cricket | *imagine |
| 20:52.19 | smtms | kblin, this is handled by reducing the number of stipdends :-) |
| 20:52.24 | Jiminy_Cricket | +s |
| 20:52.59 | kblin | SRabbelier: btw, I hope you're not paying too much attention to the jerks on the mailing list |
| 20:53.00 | Jiminy_Cricket | for instance with a standart consistent scoring across all organisations |
| 20:53.20 | SRabbelier | kblin: I'm about to the point of unsubscribing from the mentors list, yes |
| 20:53.42 | kblin | it's amazing how many open source people don't get how open source works |
| 20:53.52 | SRabbelier | kblin: the unthankfullness is just so, so... gah |
| 20:54.01 | SRabbelier | kblin: I can't grok it, not even almost |
| 20:54.47 | Jiminy_Cricket | the org scoring higher would get the student |
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| 20:54.50 | kblin | haha |
| 20:54.57 | kblin | I like tom's comment though |
| 20:55.15 | SRabbelier | kblin: yes, those make me stay :) |
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| 20:55.40 | SRabbelier | kblin: and the knowledge that there are good people on there that need help, with just a few jerks ruining it for everyone |
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| 20:56.06 | Nightrose | hugs SRabbelier for good meassure |
| 20:56.20 | SRabbelier | Nightrose: awr, thanks ^^ |
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| 21:04.13 | kblin | SRabbelier: there, some cover fire. I even resisted the urge to say "try not to hit the door on the way out" |
| 21:05.25 | kblin | SRabbelier: but I guess developing software for a horde of software developers is like being sysop at an it company |
| 21:05.27 | SRabbelier | kblin: how very diplomatic of you :), and most appreciated, I appreciate it (although the mail hasn't come through yet) |
| 21:05.37 | SRabbelier | kblin: yeah, quite possibly |
| 21:05.41 | SRabbelier | kblin: although the shirt is not as cool |
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| 21:05.44 | kblin | everybidy thinks he could do a better job than you, but nobody bothers to do it |
| 21:05.48 | SRabbelier | kblin: ("I have root @ Google", I mean, how cool is that) |
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| 21:06.13 | SRabbelier | kblin: (otoh, the person who designed that shirt, our very own Carol Smith!, is now on the team, so who knows :D) |
| 21:06.16 | Ophiuchi | kblin: is that supposed to be a problem? :) |
| 21:06.34 | kblin | SRabbelier: oh? |
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| 21:06.41 | Ophiuchi | (the "sysadmin at an IT company" thing) |
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| 21:06.55 | kblin | SRabbelier: my favourite google shirt is the aussie office shirt, though |
| 21:07.08 | SRabbelier | kblin: hahha, yes, that one is awesome for it's simplicity |
| 21:07.46 | kblin | and if you tell them it's upside down they look down at their chest and say "no, looks all right for me, mate" |
| 21:07.49 | kblin | all of them |
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| 21:07.58 | BarryCarlyon | explodes |
| 21:08.04 | SRabbelier | kblin: oh your reply is just golden, thanks so much |
| 21:08.07 | SRabbelier | kblin: awesome! :D |
| 21:08.27 | SRabbelier | kblin: @tshirt: haha, I think that's an instructional notice you get with the shirt prhaps |
| 21:08.54 | kblin | SRabbelier: no, I think it's part of the interview |
| 21:09.46 | SRabbelier | laughs |
| 21:13.42 | bawr | So, I can well imagine how it looks, but what's written on it exactly? Just Google upside-down? ") |
| 21:13.58 | kblin | bawr: yeah |
| 21:14.02 | SRabbelier | bawr: as if flipped along the x-axis |
| 21:14.07 | Ophiuchi | I think part of the problem here is that some people are very slow in understanding that Melange is a volunteer project and not a professional software by Google. |
| 21:14.17 | SRabbelier | bawr: so that, as kblin says, it looks correct when you look down on it |
| 21:14.25 | SRabbelier | bawr: similar to the kxcd regexp cheat-shirt |
| 21:14.40 | SRabbelier | Ophiuchi: maybe we just need a huge notice in <marquee> tags :P |
| 21:14.47 | SRabbelier | Ophiuchi: that bounces around the screen constantly |
| 21:15.03 | SRabbelier | "Don't like this banner? We'll flag your account to not show it after you contribute a patch to Melange!" |
| 21:15.08 | SRabbelier | that would actually be pretty awesome |
| 21:15.18 | Catfish_Man | Ophiuchi: I'm not convinced that matters that much. Volunteer software beats professional software in quality all the time |
| 21:15.29 | araujo | cannot understand how some people still participating in the GSoC dare to talk so bad about Google .... |
| 21:15.30 | Ophiuchi | SRabbelier: my experience with 'test environment' running around on the screen is that that won't help in all cases either :) |
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| 21:15.44 | SRabbelier | Catfish_Man: I think he's referring to the fact that they shouldn't be demanding support the way they are |
| 21:15.48 | Catfish_Man | ah, yes |
| 21:15.51 | Catfish_Man | that makes sense then :) |
| 21:15.56 | kblin | SRabbelier: you need to add a "beta" tag ;) |
| 21:16.46 | krkhan | is the last modified date supposed to change after a student comments on his proposal? |
| 21:16.50 | bawr | Catfish_Man: Well... I don't wish to troll, but I've heard sound arguments that VS2010 is top-notch... because Windows programmers can't work without all that auto-completing, pointy-clicky goodness - in effect forcing MS to do it well. ;) |
| 21:16.51 | kblin | SRabbelier: btw, I usually tell the people whining about wine on IRC that they can have their license fee refunded if they don't like the support |
| 21:16.51 | SRabbelier | kblin: rofl, yeah, anyone who submits a new logo (with Beta tag) gets swag, plus a large amount of Dutch food of their choosing :P |
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| 21:16.57 | Ophiuchi | Catfish_Man: you expect "being ready for a given date" and "having undergone sufficient testing" for professional soft, because its makers do get the necessary time to achieve that. |
| 21:17.19 | SRabbelier | bawr: hehe, lol |
| 21:17.19 | jkwood | I've noticed an alarming trend about this whole thing, in that so many people don't understand the importance of using the correct official channels of comunicating in Open-Source projects. |
| 21:17.26 | SRabbelier | kblin: +1 |
| 21:17.27 | Ophiuchi | Catfish_Man: ie less the code quality and more project management features |
| 21:17.33 | MatthewWilkes | evenin' all |
| 21:17.38 | jkwood | Ophiuchi: Tell that to the company that rushed out KOTOR II. |
| 21:17.45 | bawr | That said, my experience with free/open/whatever software so far has been outstanding, save for some of the religion wars. |
| 21:17.47 | Catfish_Man | Ophiuchi: I'm specifically thinking about all the years I spent competing with Apple's iChat |
| 21:17.52 | Catfish_Man | (and, imo, winning hands down) |
| 21:17.55 | SRabbelier | MatthewWilkes: indeed |
| 21:18.19 | SRabbelier | Catfish_Man: who does the "I" refer to in that sentence? :P |
| 21:18.20 | kblin | Catfish_Man: that's a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, though |
| 21:18.34 | jkwood | Anyway, I understand it some in the students, but in mentors it's disturbing. |
| 21:18.41 | Catfish_Man | SRabbelier: me, along with the rest of the adium team |
| 21:18.53 | SRabbelier | Catfish_Man: better :P |
| 21:19.04 | bwinton | Mmm, Adium. |
| 21:19.11 | Catfish_Man | kblin: eh, iChat has gotten better. It's not bad, it's just not fantastic |
| 21:19.15 | SRabbelier | jkwood: I think orgs are not careful enough in selecting their mentors is the problem |
| 21:19.20 | Catfish_Man | (and it should be) |
| 21:19.29 | kblin | Catfish_Man: ok, it's been ages since I last checked |
| 21:19.48 | SRabbelier | jkwood: someone being a mentor should not just be about knowing the code base, I don't think everybody realises that |
| 21:20.02 | bawr | Catfish_Man: Well, there's a lot of "not bad" software out there. Unless you're used to it, there really isn't a reason to keep using "not bad" software. |
| 21:20.08 | kblin | Catfish_Man: for the last two years, my mac mini has been used as media player |
| 21:20.18 | kblin | and some video cutting |
| 21:20.19 | jkwood | I agree. I freely admit I don't know our codebase very well, but I know how to project works and that's what's important. |
| 21:20.20 | Ophiuchi | SRabbelier: some get chosen for technical skill, not diplomatic/social one :) |
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| 21:20.29 | SRabbelier | Ophiuchi: and it's painfully obvious |
| 21:20.41 | jkwood | s/to/the/ |
| 21:20.53 | bawr | Well, I like the world where not everyone's a diplomat. |
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| 21:21.16 | jkwood | Not everyone has to be. It helps at times, though. |
| 21:21.23 | SRabbelier | bawr: you don't have to be a diplomat, but not being a jerk is kind of expected |
| 21:21.32 | MatthewWilkes | A mentor who can get a student into the community is much better than a codegod |
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| 21:21.42 | jkwood | We've got a number of different personalities on our team - they're complementary. |
| 21:21.45 | kblin | bawr: not diplomatic as in devil's dictionary "someone who lies for his country" |
| 21:22.17 | SRabbelier | ok, so, he apologised, but... still, it's not really an apology, no? |
| 21:22.30 | kblin | bawr: but diplomatic as in not saying "you guys are a bunch of idiots because you don't do stuff the way I think you should do" |
| 21:22.47 | schumaml | diplomacy is the art of deniable insults |
| 21:23.08 | bawr | kblin: Well, as a student, I have to say I wouldn't have a problem with a jerk who's (mostly) right for a mentor, and that mentality seems to be common. Then again, there's even more jerks who are only right half of the time or less. |
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| 21:24.05 | mlankhorst | kblin: or torvalds definition of idiot ;) |
| 21:24.29 | kblin | mlankhorst: hm, wait, isn't that "anybody who's not me?" |
| 21:24.43 | mlankhorst | kblin: no, anybody and me ;) |
| 21:24.47 | kblin | SRabbelier: maybe we can get carols to open a gsoc-mentors-flamewar list |
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| 21:25.06 | mlankhorst | but yeah the complaining on gsoc-mentors is getting annoying |
| 21:25.11 | jkwood | kblin++ |
| 21:25.21 | kblin | bawr: ok, so here's my take on this.. |
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| 21:25.33 | kblin | bawr: I think there's arrogant assholes everywhere |
| 21:25.48 | kblin | bawr: in most environments they get ignored like they should be |
| 21:26.09 | SRabbelier | kblin: lol, yes, I think that would mean move all messages that are not from google to that list though :P |
| 21:26.09 | mlankhorst | but since there are so many people on gsoc-mentors at least someone replies :( |
| 21:26.13 | SRabbelier | s/google/Googlers/ |
| 21:26.43 | kblin | bawr: and because in open source, people take pride in only looking at the code people produce, if you're a brilliant arrogant asshole, you're usually tolerated |
| 21:27.02 | danderson | please, folks, there is a simple solution |
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| 21:27.15 | SRabbelier | danderson: the Google deathray? |
| 21:27.17 | danderson | flip the bozo bit. Stop feeding the energy beast. Stop, breathe, and walk away. |
| 21:27.29 | bawr | Well, I just don't really mind assholes who are right. This is just a personal preference, though. I'm not maintaining that it passes Kant's categorical imperative or whatever. |
| 21:27.44 | kblin | however, I know a bunch of really brilliant open source developers who _aren't_ arrogant assholes, so it's not that genious == arrogant asshole |
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| 21:27.52 | danderson | no "just one more reply", no justifications, no communication. If you are wasting your calm and focus on communication, that is the definition of an energy sink |
| 21:28.08 | danderson | as an open source developer, your most precious resource is your focus. |
| 21:28.22 | SRabbelier | danderson: are you channeling Fitz? :P |
| 21:28.48 | danderson | only because he happens to be right |
| 21:29.01 | danderson | life is too short to waste it on mailing list replying to assclowns |
| 21:29.07 | jkwood | I thought my most precious resource was my rapier wit. |
| 21:29.35 | kblin | jkwood: you're good, but you're no musketeer yet d'artagnan |
| 21:29.39 | bawr | So to be clear - in my world, you get a lot of asshole points for being right. Hell, you even get some asshole points right when I meet you. But when you spend them, well, the counter overflows through the bozo bit. :) |
| 21:29.41 | SRabbelier | danderson: agreed |
| 21:29.42 | mlankhorst | danderson: true, but you always have to say at least once fuck off :) |
| 21:31.02 | kblin | bawr: that's one way to put it, I guess |
| 21:31.03 | jkwood | I make it my personal mission to ensure that they never try anything like that again. I call it the reverse-troll. It's sort of like a barrel roll, but with infinitely more nonsense. |
| 21:31.17 | kblin | hehe |
| 21:31.40 | kblin | jkwood: you're a first time org, right? |
| 21:31.40 | bawr | jkwood: Do you have a dojo where you pass along this technique? :) |
| 21:31.59 | jkwood | Yep. Hopefully not one-time. |
| 21:32.29 | jkwood | bawr: This force must only be used for good. You have to learn when it happens, or not at all. |
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| 21:32.40 | kblin | jkwood: you'd have loved the "advanced trolling" session on last year's mentor summit |
| 21:32.51 | mlankhorst | oo, did that one make it to lwn? |
| 21:32.58 | micahcowan | That was truly great. I'm kinda hoping there'll be a sequel. |
| 21:33.18 | kblin | yeah, especially given how much the last one sucked |
| 21:33.33 | micahcowan | Heh, nice try. :) |
| 21:33.38 | SRabbelier | kblin: lol, weak troll :P |
| 21:33.45 | kblin | yeah, I know, long day |
| 21:33.56 | SRabbelier | kblin: chuckle-worthy nonetheless |
| 21:34.05 | micahcowan | <-- still smiling |
| 21:34.08 | jkwood | Having grown up on internet communities and bad puns, I could easily teach a college course on how to detect and defuse trolls. |
| 21:34.12 | kblin | it was a cheap shot, but someone _had_ to take it |
| 21:34.21 | bawr | jkwood: Is this like being a paladin? Does one lose the reverse-trolling powers of doom when one uses them for evil? |
| 21:34.23 | micahcowan | jkwood, this was more along the lines of instigating them. |
| 21:34.53 | kblin | jkwood: yeah, it really was a guide on how to be are really good troll |
| 21:35.08 | jkwood | bawr: Yes, but you can be a paladin and reverse troll. We encourage it, actually. |
| 21:35.25 | bawr | micahcowan: I don't think you've seen the master troll technicians who set up two trolls against each other. |
| 21:35.31 | bawr | It's quite a sight. |
| 21:35.45 | mlankhorst | kblin: also funny is http://lwn.net/Articles/370157/ |
| 21:35.55 | micahcowan | bawr, not sure I have. Or at least, I didn't know that it was, if I did. But it was covered in Advanced Trolling. |
| 21:36.30 | bawr | micahcowan: You know, I'm really glad that talks wasn't made public now. ;) |
| 21:37.04 | jkwood | mlankhorst: Heh, gonna have to remember that one. |
| 21:37.26 | SRabbelier | mlankhorst: hahah, awesome! |
| 21:37.36 | mlankhorst | the sugarcrm post is also awesome ;) |
| 21:38.03 | mlankhorst | s/post/comment/ |
| 21:39.49 | bawr | mlankhorst: Form breaking for a few months. Wow. Just... wow. |
| 21:39.51 | SRabbelier | mlankhorst: addy? |
| 21:40.32 | mlankhorst | bawr: :) |
| 21:41.22 | mlankhorst | SRabbelier: http://www.sugarforge.org/content/community/participate/contribute.php |
| 21:41.54 | mlankhorst | I wonder if *anyone* submitted through it :x |
| 21:42.55 | SRabbelier | mlankhorst: awesome, just awesome :D |
| 21:42.58 | bawr | ...damn you. Damn you, mlankhorst, now I'll be reading through LWN's quotes of the week and the relevant threads for the next hour or so. |
| 21:43.04 | kblin | "An experience with a project of mine sums it up a bit differently: while 0.1% of the community is trying to improve things a bit indeed, 99.9% of them just whine actively and state that someone else should" |
| 21:43.17 | kblin | so true |
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| 21:44.30 | Ophiuchi | kblin: that's only true for the popular orgs. For mine, if people even know it exists they are likely capable to fix bugs if they can be bothered |
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| 21:45.44 | bawr | Ophiuchi: What's the org, then? I assume it fixes one bad itch. |
| 21:46.00 | Ophiuchi | bawr: NetBSD |
| 21:46.10 | mlankhorst | bawr: You can.. just close it ;) |
| 21:46.28 | kblin | Ophiuchi: the numbers probably work out if you count users |
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| 21:46.50 | mlankhorst | back to shooting monsters, spent 12 hours past few days on just 6 lines.. |
| 21:47.05 | kblin | anyway, SIGGF see you tomorrow |
| 21:47.27 | bawr | mlankhorst: I wish it worked that way. Unfortunately, I'm operating on a stack, and a POP takes anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours. |
| 21:47.29 | bawr | Ah, well. |
| 21:47.33 | bawr | Bye, kblin. |
| 21:48.09 | Ophiuchi | good point, it's getting late here. Have fun. |
| 21:48.46 | SRabbelier | goes off to bed too |
| 21:48.50 | SRabbelier | cheers :D |
| 21:49.05 | mlankhorst | must kill monsters first |
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| 21:49.26 | nooga | !timeline |
| 21:49.27 | socinfo | "timeline" is (#1) http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline, or (#2) for the visually oriented: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mRuBILD0TjI/S6tGHR4mM3I/AAAAAAAACbw/tftJozZHs-0/s1600/gsoc10timeline.JPG |
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| 21:57.44 | bawr | Gah, still one more week before the results are up. :/ |
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| 22:02.12 | smtms | !timeline is http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/timeline |
| 22:02.13 | socinfo | Error: "timeline" is not a valid command. |
| 22:05.40 | bawr | socinfo: Why remove the image? |
| 22:05.41 | socinfo | Error: "Why" is not a valid command. |
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| 22:06.33 | AshishG | !google |
| 22:06.33 | socinfo | "google" is not the cosmic cash machine people think it is. |
| 22:06.39 | AshishG | !botabuse |
| 22:06.40 | socinfo | "botabuse" is (#1) Leave me alone! (also, you can play with me as much as you like in a private /query so as not to spam the channel), or (#2) When in a query with me, use whatis #gsoc <factoid> to get the best use., or (#3) You can also get a list of factoids with 'factoids search #gsoc *' and 'more' |
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| 22:19.18 | pauloricardomg | should I be able to edit my proposal right now? |
| 22:19.39 | BarryCarlyon | I vote no. |
| 22:19.39 | micahcowan | pauloricardomg, nope. Post public comments with edits, instead. |
| 22:20.38 | pauloricardomg | any admin? |
| 22:20.45 | smtms | pauloricardomg, what kind of admin? |
| 22:21.07 | pauloricardomg | any program admin |
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| 22:22.24 | Ivanovic | pauloricardomg: the proposals themselves are frozen for a reason! |
| 22:22.35 | Ivanovic | pauloricardomg: this way you do see the "changes" since they are done as comments |
| 22:22.56 | Ivanovic | in case you are accepted you got a chance to update (some) things |
| 22:23.02 | Ivanovic | (like the short summary and the likes) |
| 22:23.13 | Ivanovic | but until this is the case: changes/updates only via comments! |
| 22:24.00 | borja | The user guide says that students "can edit the Abstract portion of your application at any time". Is this actually so? I have a student who says he can't do it |
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| 22:24.21 | Ivanovic | borja: to be honest: no idea |
| 22:24.28 | borja | But, not having access to the student interface, I don't know if this option is available or if the student simply can't find it |
| 22:24.45 | Ivanovic | borja: but from previous years i think i remember that at least after announcing who was accepted the abstract part was editable |
| 22:25.20 | borja | Ivanovic: ah, ok. I seem to remember that from last years too, but didn't remember if it was editable "at all times" as the user guide claims, or only post-acceptance |
| 22:26.00 | Ivanovic | i don't think that it was editable all time |
| 22:26.23 | Ivanovic | so maybe a "bug report" is in place that docs and "real world" do differ |
| 22:26.26 | Ivanovic | ;) |
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| 22:26.48 | borja | nods |
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| 22:27.48 | Ivanovic | anyway, time for me to head off to bed and try to find some sleep |
| 22:27.49 | Ivanovic | n8 |
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| 22:44.02 | mkarnicki | !timeline |
| 22:44.02 | socinfo | "timeline" is (#1) http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline, or (#2) for the visually oriented: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mRuBILD0TjI/S6tGHR4mM3I/AAAAAAAACbw/tftJozZHs-0/s1600/gsoc10timeline.JPG |
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| 23:06.57 | ojwb | is left unclear from the mentors list thread - can all mentors see duplicates or only admins? |
| 23:08.48 | jkwood | ojwb: Only admins can see who the duplicate is with, all mentors can see that there is a duplicate. |
| 23:09.23 | ojwb | jkwood: thanks, that's what I thought, but several replies seemed to be suggesting only admins can |
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| 23:59.01 | *** join/#gsoc RT|Chatzilla (~rt@reactos/tester/RT) |
| 23:59.58 | dennda | !timeline |
| 23:59.59 | socinfo | "timeline" is (#1) http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/gsoc_program/google/gsoc2010/faqs#timeline, or (#2) for the visually oriented: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mRuBILD0TjI/S6tGHR4mM3I/AAAAAAAACbw/tftJozZHs-0/s1600/gsoc10timeline.JPG |
