| 00:00.20 | florian | good night |
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| 07:08.49 | fng_sma | good morning. |
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| 07:12.26 | dmd | does gpe 2.7 (as with oz 3.5.4.1) come with a util for setting up a USB storage partition? |
| 07:12.55 | dmd | that gets mounted when I stick a cable in my Z |
| 07:20.00 | fng_sma | dmd: Sorry I can't help you. |
| 07:20.33 | dmd | fng: Are you not running gpe 2.7? |
| 07:22.05 | fng_sma | dmd: erm... no. I currently only have it on my laptop. |
| 07:22.36 | fng_sma | dmd: And I'll try to implement the things I should have done a long time ago. |
| 07:22.56 | dmd | fng: like? |
| 07:23.09 | fng_sma | dmd: synchronisation of categories. |
| 07:23.36 | fng_sma | dmd: I'm the guy that is to be blamed of everything concerning synchronisation. |
| 07:24.19 | dmd | don't think i'm targetting you then, yet :) |
| 07:24.46 | fng_sma | How long have you been running gpe on your z? (which z, btw?) |
| 07:25.56 | dmd | Looks like I'm just about to install it. I'll be disappointed if I can't get the USB storage link/partition to work though, which is what I'm here asking about. c3000 |
| 07:26.35 | dmd | can i compile apps natively under OZ without messing with bb? |
| 07:26.47 | fng_sma | dmd: I'm pretty sure that it shouldn't be that much of a problem. |
| 07:26.59 | dmd | USB or compilation? |
| 07:27.08 | fng_sma | dmd: USB. |
| 07:27.13 | dmd | good |
| 07:27.34 | dmd | compilation? |
| 07:27.53 | dmd | compiling, i should say |
| 07:28.20 | fng_sma | dmd: I guess you could compile the apps but it'll probably take a long time and bb makes it in the end really a lot easier, even if it takes some time to get it running. |
| 07:29.38 | dmd | I'm on about stuff that isn't already in oe of course. I want to see if I can get zynaddsubfx and audacity running on the z |
| 07:30.27 | dmd | I can't just install the required dev libs on my z, then configure, make, make install can I not? |
| 07:30.59 | fng_sma | Do you have gcc on it and running? |
| 07:31.28 | dmd | i will have. GCC is in the oz repositories surely? |
| 07:32.44 | fng_sma | I don't know. |
| 07:33.42 | fng_sma | Where are you from? |
| 07:34.50 | dmd | lancashire, england |
| 07:35.16 | fng_sma | wow, you're early :-). I'm in Dunedin, Nz. |
| 07:35.43 | dmd | yeah ;) |
| 07:35.58 | fng_sma | hello XorA |
| 07:37.09 | XorA | hey fng_sma |
| 07:37.24 | fng_sma | yeah, I know... it's been a long long time. |
| 07:38.36 | fng_sma | phew! A lot of things have changed as I see. |
| 07:39.37 | XorA | dmd: there should be a working sdk in oz 3.5.4 |
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| 09:08.38 | fng_sma | Time for me to have dinner. |
| 09:08.38 | fng_sma | See you hopefully later. |
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| 09:52.16 | florian_kc | good morning |
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| 10:11.04 | mmp | florian_kc: hello; is it possible to use newer version of bitbake with org.oe.familiar ? |
| 10:11.20 | mmp | (up to now I have used org.oe.dev, with which it worked correctly) |
| 10:11.39 | mmp | but when I tried it here, it produced quite a lot of warnings when creating cache |
| 10:12.01 | mmp | so I now use the shipped version |
| 10:12.47 | florian_kc | mmp: you should use the old thing shipped with familiar |
| 10:13.37 | mmp | That's what I wanted to know; the newer bitbake is just a bit faster:) |
| 10:13.39 | mmp | thanks |
| 10:14.52 | florian_kc | indeed :-) |
| 10:20.31 | mmp | I (a bit lately) realized that with usage of org.oe.dev I'm just getting more problems than neccessary. But a bit late:-( |
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| 10:22.39 | florian_kc | true, |
| 10:23.07 | florian_kc | mmp: worst case i could build an OZ image ;) |
| 10:23.56 | mmp | :) I have already build a familiar one, but I;m a bit afraid that the dependency hell now will move from PDA to my laptop... |
| 10:24.10 | florian_kc | yeah |
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| 11:01.38 | florian_kc | hi pb__ |
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| 11:25.27 | pb__ | hi florian_kc |
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| 11:49.45 | florian_kc | pb__: are you on the gnome-embedded mailinglist? |
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| 12:15.44 | pb__ | florian_kc: no |
| 12:17.32 | florian_kc | pb__: iirc it is still not public but if you want i'll ask Jeff to subscribe you... it might be interesting :-) |
| 12:21.59 | pb__ | sure, that might be fun |
| 12:22.17 | florian_kc | pb__: ok, will do |
| 12:24.31 | pb__ | rock |
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| 13:35.55 | Skyhusker | ghi |
| 13:37.10 | florian_kc | hi Skyhusker |
| 13:37.22 | Skyhusker | hey florian_kc |
| 13:37.47 | florian_kc | Skyhusker: I didn't get an answer from france so far... |
| 13:38.10 | Skyhusker | florian_kc: don't worry, i don't need to publish the code until 21th |
| 13:38.29 | Skyhusker | and i always can make a snapshot and put it at hh.org/~skyhusker |
| 13:38.35 | florian_kc | true |
| 13:45.14 | mmp | florian_kc: is there any gconf-dbus bbfile, which will be able to compile with dbus-0.62 ? So far I have found just cvs/svn snapshot ones, which might not be the best idea... . And are from org.oe.dev |
| 13:46.22 | florian_kc | mmp: there is no release of it imho so the svn version is fine. |
| 13:47.01 | mmp | yes, but bitbake shipped with familiar's tree can't parse them... |
| 13:47.49 | mmp | I can try to use the older one... |
| 13:50.32 | florian_kc | mmp: ah right, thats SRCDATE vs. CVSDATE i suppose |
| 13:50.51 | mmp | yes |
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| 13:50.58 | mmp | I just understood how to use it:) |
| 13:51.35 | mmp | I thought that the _cvs and _svn thingies just everytime fetch actual repository contents, but I was too lazy to have a look inside |
| 13:52.08 | florian_kc | hi robtaylor |
| 13:52.36 | robtaylor | florian_kc: hey :) decided i'd been away from gpe for too long ;) |
| 13:53.19 | florian_kc | robtaylor: heh okay :-) |
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| 14:06.32 | Skyhusker | bye florian_kc |
| 14:06.41 | Skyhusker | beach time :) |
| 14:07.22 | florian_kc | *beach* |
| 14:07.33 | robtaylor | florian_kc: talking embedded hal - what do you see as the power management issues there? |
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| 14:09.29 | florian_kc | robtaylor: i'm not that sure what this was about originally but what i can imagine is that it might poll some stuff frequently which would be bad on devices that stay on all the time. |
| 14:12.03 | florian_kc | hello jg |
| 14:12.14 | florian_kc | robtaylor: but that's just a guess... |
| 14:14.26 | jg | hi florian_kc |
| 14:17.01 | robtaylor | jg: hey |
| 14:17.28 | robtaylor | florian_kc: hmm, i should think that'd be fixable though |
| 14:17.48 | jg | hi robtaylor |
| 14:18.54 | robtaylor | florian_kc: hmm, i guess we're just going to have to do some hal investigation ourselves ;) |
| 14:19.16 | florian_kc | robtaylor: yeah... do you think HAL might be able to fulfill the needs for a mobile device? |
| 14:19.53 | robtaylor | florian_kc: adding some stuff to strip out unnecessary buss etc, i think it's plausible |
| 14:20.35 | robtaylor | its certianly intersting from the point of the ability to simply define policy |
| 14:20.49 | florian_kc | robtaylor: the last time did is some time ago i admit... my major problem at this time was that it shipped a pile of stuff which was not necessary and didn't really make things easier. |
| 14:21.14 | robtaylor | (e.g. i just configured this machine to do certain magical things when a certain usb key is inserted ;)) |
| 14:21.54 | robtaylor | florian_kc: yes, you'd need cnfigure time flags adding to strip the extra studd |
| 14:21.58 | robtaylor | stuff |
| 14:22.08 | robtaylor | luckily davidz is a lovely man ;) |
| 14:24.41 | florian_kc | robtaylor: okay... we need to collect all this stuff somewhere |
| 14:25.06 | robtaylor | florian_kc: definitly |
| 14:25.25 | robtaylor | we also need to figure where gpe and gnome-embedded fit together |
| 14:26.17 | jg | robtaylor: we need to have this discussion real soon now with David Zeuthen. |
| 14:26.35 | jg | as he is working on OLPC, he's motivated to have this discussion seriously. |
| 14:26.46 | jg | it is clear there is work that needs to be done in HAL. |
| 14:26.50 | robtaylor | jg: i guessed he'd be interested :) |
| 14:26.59 | jg | yup. |
| 14:27.06 | jg | we've just been too busy to deal with it yet. |
| 14:27.26 | jg | as we support USB, some of what HAL does would be very useful to us, I suspect. |
| 14:27.29 | robtaylor | jg: yep, we (collabora) have some plans for some testing, but no timescale atm. dbus optimisation may come 1st |
| 14:28.27 | robtaylor | jg: almost certainly. i suspected it was pretty low down on your 'needed' list tho? |
| 14:28.35 | jg | robtaylor: yeah, well, we're focussed on completing hardware support and getting the first cut of a distro together. I'll ping David when I see him next that this discussion needs to occur. |
| 14:29.01 | jg | Dave's just redone fedora's initrd to use udev, so that has kept him very busy. |
| 14:29.06 | jg | Very sweet result, though. |
| 14:29.16 | robtaylor | heh, sounds good. |
| 14:29.47 | jg | faster boot, and the boot sequence no longer has to have a sleep to wait for disks to spin up if you are running off of external disk/flash. |
| 14:29.58 | robtaylor | i think Scott James Remnant has been doing similar in ubuntu. they should probably talk |
| 14:30.03 | robtaylor | ;) |
| 14:30.04 | jg | yeah. |
| 14:30.13 | florian_kc | is davidz subscribed to the list? |
| 14:30.14 | jg | I'll try to poke dave. |
| 14:30.34 | jg | Dave has his stuff working as of this week. |
| 14:30.48 | jg | florian_kc: which list? |
| 14:30.57 | jg | it is going into fedora rawhide right now. |
| 14:31.38 | robtaylor | florian_kc: doubt it. i think its only been those in the meeting and 'special' others ;) |
| 14:31.49 | jg | one of the keys to get the OLPC system so that install/boot of conventional distros should just work.... |
| 14:32.13 | florian_kc | robtaylor: about fitting gnome-embedded and gpe together i wouldn't worry that much right now... the backends should be compatible, the uis will be subject of very complicated discussions... |
| 14:32.24 | florian_kc | jg: the gnome-embedded one |
| 14:32.44 | florian_kc | robtaylor: okay, that would be another useful candidate :-) |
| 14:32.49 | jg | florian_kc: I'll try to remember to ask, or drop a note to Dave asking him to partake. |
| 14:34.06 | robtaylor | florian_kc: so you see them as seperate projects? |
| 14:34.26 | florian_kc | hmm... good question |
| 14:34.35 | florian_kc | not necessarily... |
| 14:35.35 | florian_kc | I remember Nils and Jeff were discussing making the 'G' in GPE stand for "Gnome" ;) |
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| 14:36.03 | florian_kc | that might be worth a discussion for the GPE mailinglist. |
| 14:36.07 | robtaylor | of course, we need to have a real GNOME-endorsed gnome-embbeded. so i suspect if one was started, the good components of GPE would then migrate to gnome |
| 14:36.09 | florian_kc | hey Robot101 |
| 14:36.13 | robtaylor | florian_kc: agreed |
| 14:37.18 | florian_kc | that reminds me that i had some ideas about gnome/gpe/mobile/whatever UI compatibility... |
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| 14:38.26 | robtaylor | florian_kc: oh? |
| 14:39.04 | moray | robtaylor: there have been discussions several times over the years about making GPE part of GNOME like that |
| 14:39.06 | moray | robtaylor: I was basically in favour, but I think Nils may have been worried about a loss of control (?), and we never really had enough buy-in from people on the GNOME side anyway |
| 14:39.06 | florian_kc | robtaylor: some kind of... |
| 14:39.48 | florian_kc | moray: i don't think control was the major problem, but the interest was quite low in the past. |
| 14:40.24 | moray | certainly I think the reason nothing ever happened was because we didn't really have people inside GNOME who wanted it to happen with GPE stuff included |
| 14:40.48 | florian_kc | right |
| 14:41.08 | robtaylor | moray: in that case it definitly seems like the right thing to do is to create gnome-embedded then slowly move gpe to there |
| 14:41.57 | moray | robtaylor: ... if there's someone willing to do the work |
| 14:42.21 | robtaylor | there was some pretty terrible code floating around when i was last doing stuff |
| 14:42.31 | moray | robtaylor: well, GPE has a severe lack of developers. although I'm still interested, I haven't had time for work on the code for years, for example |
| 14:42.39 | robtaylor | moray: well, thats another side to the discussion |
| 14:43.13 | florian_kc | robtaylor: that would be the major part of the problem - people need to take a look. gpe contains many ideas and concepts but lacks the power to produce really nice code. |
| 14:43.14 | moray | robtaylor: well, it's relevant to the quality though - some of the code was written by random teenagers, and known bad quality, but no one else had the time to write the things in question / fix the code, so... |
| 14:43.46 | florian_kc | ... and we carry around quite some ancient stuff |
| 14:43.51 | robtaylor | florian_kc, moray: yes :/ |
| 14:44.13 | florian_kc | e.g. in libgpewidget which is solved in gtk now. |
| 14:44.48 | florian_kc | Another probelm ist that it is hard to find out about the status of gpe right now... |
| 14:45.03 | robtaylor | yep, we also need to dissasociate from any particular distro |
| 14:45.05 | florian_kc | the website is more than outdated. familiar is outdated... |
| 14:45.26 | mmp | florian_kc: (sorry for disturbing) right... |
| 14:45.44 | florian_kc | In fact you would need to use OpenZaurus on a device it works on or compile it yourself... |
| 14:45.45 | robtaylor | and there's too much confusion between gpe and familar, oz, oe, etx |
| 14:45.54 | florian_kc | mmp: np :-) |
| 14:46.05 | robtaylor | (esp on the webpages, one quitely sigues into the other as you browse..) |
| 14:46.47 | florian_kc | robtaylor: the worst thing it the fact that gpe shares bugzilla with familiar, but i'm just ging to change this.. |
| 14:47.10 | robtaylor | florian_kc: well, if we create gnome-embbedded, we can just use gnome's bugzilla |
| 14:47.10 | florian_kc | eh going |
| 14:47.21 | florian_kc | robtaylor: true |
| 14:47.23 | robtaylor | which certainly cuts down maintainance |
| 14:47.49 | robtaylor | shareing as much infrastructure with gnome as possible would help cut down gash |
| 14:49.30 | florian_kc | robtaylor: well... but in fact experienced developers are more important than infrastructure right now. |
| 14:50.21 | florian_kc | robtaylor: there are only a few devices that are a useful target, so there are only a few developers all the time. |
| 14:51.52 | robtaylor | yep |
| 14:52.45 | robtaylor | florian_kc: i'm not sure what N's take on it would be, but mybe sardine would be interested |
| 14:52.53 | robtaylor | *interesting, i mean |
| 14:53.21 | robtaylor | we really need some interested manufacturers to come forward :/ |
| 14:53.49 | florian_kc | robtaylor: yes, that would be an interesting thing to try... |
| 14:54.58 | robtaylor | maybe we should ping Lefty |
| 14:55.51 | robtaylor | is this a job for jdub? ;) |
| 14:56.42 | florian_kc | yeah |
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| 17:00.30 | rob_w-cgi | hey koen ,, what was the name of the text browser package we have ?? PLEASE ? |
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| 17:14.37 | tombs | hi all |
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| 17:28.16 | florian_kc | hi tombs |
| 17:28.28 | tombs | hi :) |
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| 17:57.25 | mmp | florian_kc: are gthreads supported in GPE image? |
| 17:57.54 | mmp | the applet behaves a bit weird when compared to what it does on desktop... . |
| 17:59.04 | florian_kc | mmp: sure |
| 17:59.56 | mmp | hmm, on desktop, gpe-nm-applet runs fine; but within GPE it compains that gthreads have not been initalized... . Maybe somehow different semantics of calls? |
| 18:01.04 | robtaylor | hmm, now is NM on an embedded box? |
| 18:01.46 | mmp | robtaylor: not yet, but it tries to be:) |
| 18:02.22 | mmp | actually the daemon is running, with some weird dbus error happening sometimes; I'll debug this after applet will work... |
| 18:02.41 | mmp | but in Xnest GPE, it ran |
| 18:02.43 | mmp | :) |
| 18:03.33 | robtaylor | mmp: i've not really looked, how is it for memory usage? |
| 18:03.51 | florian_kc | mmp: not really, which piece complains about gthreads? |
| 18:04.30 | mmp | robtaylor: i: one NM process seemed to occupy ~2MB RAM |
| 18:04.54 | robtaylor | mmp: that's committed pages? |
| 18:05.10 | mmp | florian_kc: it was in fact function from dbus, complaining that it needs initialized gthreads before calling it |
| 18:05.51 | mmp | robtaylor: 'ps' says vmstat, so probably whole virtual mem... |
| 18:06.21 | robtaylor | mm, nice |
| 18:07.17 | mmp | I'm a bit worrying about the applet; some people complained about NM dialogs not fitting onto 1024x768 screen:) |
| 18:07.23 | florian_kc | mmp: maybe a different version of dbus... maybe just do this initialisation. |
| 18:07.38 | robtaylor | florian_kc: can you remember what that util is that parses smaps? |
| 18:07.43 | mmp | yes, or some library doing its initialisation otherwise... |
| 18:08.13 | florian_kc | mmp: sounds like you have some work to do... |
| 18:08.22 | florian_kc | robtaylor: hmm no |
| 18:12.23 | mmp | florian_kc: yes, both gthreads and dialogs:) |
| 18:14.05 | robtaylor | /usr/sbin/NetworkManager: 4 KB |
| 18:14.20 | robtaylor | ( http://primates.ximian.com/~federico/misc/memstats.py ) |
| 18:14.27 | robtaylor | woot |
| 18:17.17 | florian_kc | cool |
| 18:17.23 | mmp | robtaylor: uhh, that's a bit... small... |
| 18:17.49 | robtaylor | mmp: yeah, thats wrong |
| 18:17.57 | robtaylor | heap is 380KB |
| 18:18.11 | robtaylor | sorry 200, i mean |
| 18:18.29 | robtaylor | private dirty total 380, on my intel system |
| 18:18.36 | robtaylor | so, not awful at all |
| 18:21.40 | mmp | hmm, ok, applet runs on PDA; now just to find out why it does not show anything... |
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| 18:29.52 | mmp | hmm, I think it will be fun to debug this: NetworkManager: <WARNING> get_scan_results (): card took too much time scanning. Get a better one. |
| 18:30.15 | florian_kc | heh |
| 18:31.11 | ||cw | it says get a bigger one? |
| 18:31.17 | ||cw | better* |
| 18:31.52 | ||cw | what kind of card is this? |
| 18:35.08 | mmp | ||cw: at76c503 one.. |
| 18:35.39 | florian_kc | bbl |
| 18:35.40 | mmp | the driver is really weird |
| 18:35.44 | mmp | florian_kc: bye |
| 18:36.01 | ||cw | that's an understatement :D |
| 18:36.03 | mmp | ||cw: it refuses to do any scanning when it is not associated. Or at least I don't know the trick |
| 18:36.09 | robtaylor | Process 4219 (/usr/sbin/hald) heap: 2652 |
| 18:36.12 | robtaylor | mm |
| 18:36.29 | mmp | maybe fw upgrade... |
| 18:40.56 | robtaylor | http://projects.collabora.co.uk/~robtaylor/memstats.py <- updated script, shows heap and stack for each process :) |
| 18:42.34 | mmp | :) |
| 18:43.01 | mmp | well, but my stats will probably be a bit biased:) sizeof(void*) == 8... |
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| 18:45.49 | mimecar | evening |
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| 18:52.39 | mimecar | hi zap |
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| 19:11.29 | mimecar | hi florian |
| 19:11.37 | florian | re |
| 19:13.39 | robtaylor | florian: you missed it before, but something you might find useful: http://projects.collabora.co.uk/~robtaylor/memstats.py |
| 19:14.34 | mimecar | a python script ? |
| 19:14.35 | mmp | florian: any clue why would something freeze in pthread_create? |
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| 19:15.04 | florian | robtaylor: indeed |
| 19:15.38 | florian | mmp: uh, that sounds nasty |
| 19:15.45 | robtaylor | mimecar: prints private dirty page usage, and heap and stack usage per process |
| 19:15.51 | mmp | florian: I was afraid of that answer:-( |
| 19:16.01 | mimecar | ok |
| 19:16.17 | mimecar | my knowledge of python is in a lower level.. |
| 19:16.44 | florian | mmp: i remeber something like this... maybe Ole ran into something like this |
| 19:17.37 | mmp | maybe it is somehow connected with why dbus complains about not initialized threads. |
| 19:17.58 | mmp | actually, the call stack is dbus_set_error, and from that, pthread_create |
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| 19:26.28 | cinix | I'm trying to add a new category to matchbox that has more then one match=. I've tried every combination of seperators I can think of, I'm going for something like Match=Internet;Networking but it only ever works if I limit it to one. Is it supposed to be possible to do more then one? |
| 19:26.52 | mimecar | you can create more folders |
| 19:27.08 | mimecar | but only one name |
| 19:28.33 | cinix | thanks |
| 19:29.55 | robtaylor | mmp: ahh, yeah, could be |
| 19:30.48 | robtaylor | mmp: try adding dbus_threads_init at the top of main |
| 19:31.13 | mmp | hmm, are you thinking about some race conditions? |
| 19:31.48 | mmp | robtaylor: ^ |
| 19:32.52 | robtaylor | mmp: yep, if you dont call that and dbus is accessed from multiple threads, badness ensues |
| 19:33.44 | mmp | hmm, dbus_g_thread_init isn't calling it? |
| 19:33.56 | mmp | it is... |
| 19:33.58 | mmp | :-( |
| 19:34.10 | mmp | so it is called as a part of initialization... |
| 19:34.11 | florian | cinix: that means a new vfolder file |
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| 19:36.53 | mmp | it freezes just after calling first dbus function after threads init - dbus_bus_get |
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| 21:16.07 | mimecar | hi / re florian |
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| 21:58.08 | florian | france: what's up with h7 again? |
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| 22:01.36 | florian | france: cvs update: failed to create lock directory for `/cvs/gpe/base/gpe-dotnet/gpe-dotnet20/pnet/cscc/java' (/var/lock/cvs/gpe/base/gpe-dotnet/gpe-dotnet20/pnet/cscc/java/#cvs.lock): No space left on device |
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| 22:35.53 | florian | hi zecke |
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| 23:35.57 | france | florian: hi |
| 23:36.13 | france | florian: I just check, there is space available on the hd. are you still seeing the issue? |
| 23:36.19 | florian | hi france |
| 23:36.29 | france | s/check/checked/ |
| 23:36.32 | france | florian: hi |
| 23:36.35 | florian | france: nope, it was gone when i retried some minutes later. |
| 23:37.04 | france | florian: something must of used up all the HD. I hope to have time this weekend to move e-mail and bugzilla. It should free up a ton of space. |
| 23:37.17 | florian | france: but the load on that machine was > 25 at the same time too. iirc you were interested to know when this happens. |
| 23:37.26 | france | florian: I am... |
| 23:37.45 | france | florian: lots of things to fix...:-( |
| 23:38.03 | france | florian: I am heading out the door for dinner, will you be on later? |
| 23:38.33 | florian | france: not that much, its early in the morning here :-} |
| 23:38.39 | france | :-D |
| 23:38.41 | france | thought so! |
| 23:38.48 | france | I will be on all weekend... |
| 23:38.51 | florian | s/that much/much lonmger |
| 23:38.57 | france | thanks again for the heads up... |
| 23:39.04 | florian | france: yw |
| 23:39.04 | france | have a good nite. |
| 23:39.30 | florian | france: thanks |
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| 23:52.29 | cinix | Can anyone tell me why sometimes application icons appear in one folder when looking at the desktop, but another folder when looking at the app launcher? |
| 23:53.41 | florian | cinix: you mean gpe-applauncer vs. matchbox-desktop? |
| 23:54.49 | cinix | florian: I don't know. It would make sense if that's how it usually is. I run matchbox + gpe |
| 23:55.17 | cinix | Makes more sense they might behave differently now that you've made it clear they are two seperate pieces of software |
| 23:55.42 | cinix | The app launcher shows the same categories I make in /usr/share/matchbox |
| 23:56.00 | cinix | and some applications do stay where they are meant to be. |
| 23:56.15 | cinix | categories = vfolder |
| 23:56.53 | florian | cinix: that's strange indeed... imho they should behave the same |
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