| 00:51.58 | *** join/#gpe jg_ (~jg@h005018015b26.ne.client2.attbi.com) |
| 00:58.29 | *** join/#gpe thr33 (olly@oghm2.acad.cai.cam.ac.uk) |
| 01:16.48 | AntiProxy | this is as far as i got with X-Chat today: http://handhelds.org/scap/land.15991.png |
| 01:16.54 | AntiProxy | couldn't make those tabs any smaller yet |
| 01:17.23 | pigeon | AntiProxy: Yo! :) |
| 01:17.41 | AntiProxy | yo yo yo! |
| 01:23.06 | moray | AntiProxy: unfortunately xchat doesn't use proper tabs (but buttons), which may complicate things there |
| 01:26.59 | AntiProxy | proper in what sense? |
| 01:29.27 | moray | it doesn't use a widget that's designed to provide tabs (see e.g. gnome-terminal, or a tabbed GTK web browser); it just sticks lots of buttons in a row |
| 01:30.43 | AntiProxy | ah that |
| 01:31.12 | AntiProxy | i think it needs to do that.. inorder to arrange channels under servers under networks in groups |
| 01:31.19 | AntiProxy | and be able to move them around freely |
| 01:31.55 | AntiProxy | i still think removing the extra blank space on top of the tab (button) label wont be so hard.. if only i knew where exactly it's coming from .) |
| 01:32.18 | moray | AntiProxy: yes |
| 01:32.30 | moray | AntiProxy: although I'd prefer it without the silly server grouping actually... |
| 01:32.53 | moray | AntiProxy: (and improving the tab widget might have been a more useful way forward if they wanted to do that) |
| 01:33.44 | moray | (I wouldn't categorise my channels by server if it didn't make me, but by topic, and order would be quite sufficient to do that.) |
| 01:34.37 | AntiProxy | what makes this hard, is that Peter (zed) seems to be the sole developer on this! |
| 01:55.09 | AntiProxy | umm |
| 01:55.12 | AntiProxy | i just realized something |
| 01:55.51 | AntiProxy | all my buttons in GPE look the same as those in X-Chat ( they have the padding above and under the text ) |
| 01:56.25 | AntiProxy | and since i checked almost all the source of X-Chat for button styling options and found nothing.. i'm guessing it's gtkrc i have to edit |
| 01:59.58 | moray | yeah - part of what I was muttering about with them being buttons is that I'm worried you'll end up changing *all* the buttons, which isn't necessarily what you want |
| 02:01.11 | AntiProxy | isn't there a way of fixing them only without having to adjust the global look of GPE? |
| 02:02.14 | moray | well, I'd hope you can at least override them just in xchat without much trouble, but you might need xchat changes to get only the 'tab' buttons to change without the others also getting squashed |
| 02:02.46 | AntiProxy | all the buttons need to be squashed |
| 02:02.51 | AntiProxy | they all have the same padding issue |
| 02:05.50 | moray | They all have padding; that's not necessarily bad. (Though it's possible a minor reduction would still look reasonable.) |
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| 08:44.05 | florian | morning |
| 08:50.49 | cmarqu_werk | Morning florian |
| 08:55.31 | florian | hi cmarqu_werk |
| 09:02.41 | *** join/#gpe jsmanrique (~jsmanriqu@79.Red-213-98-110.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 09:02.46 | jsmanrique | hi! |
| 09:02.51 | jsmanrique | good morning |
| 09:02.58 | florian | hello jsmanrique |
| 09:04.48 | jsmanrique | now MasterIA link works |
| 09:04.51 | jsmanrique | http://www.masteria.com.tw/ |
| 09:10.36 | jsmanrique | take a look to their PDA and eBook |
| 09:10.46 | florian | hmm.. their pda looks nice... |
| 09:10.50 | jsmanrique | good candidates for GPE comercialization |
| 09:10.57 | jsmanrique | :-D |
| 09:12.05 | jsmanrique | what about contacting MontaVista to add support for GPE2 on their system |
| 09:13.06 | jsmanrique | MasterIA Beagle (pda) using Linux costs $300 more or less |
| 09:13.27 | jsmanrique | someone should contact them |
| 09:13.42 | florian | cool idea :-) |
| 09:16.23 | jsmanrique | I have contacted them (masteria) sometime ago, and they looked very interested |
| 09:16.40 | jsmanrique | I have tried FIC and Mtitac too, but with differente success |
| 09:17.08 | jsmanrique | Mitac I mean |
| 09:17.20 | jsmanrique | MasterIA offers Qt |
| 09:18.13 | florian | Hmm... let me look at MontaVista... who this is... |
| 09:18.37 | jsmanrique | http://www.mvista.com |
| 09:18.54 | jsmanrique | MontaVista is one of the biggest linux embedded providers |
| 09:19.15 | jsmanrique | from MasterIA I have this: No minimum order require, 270 USD for each pcs. |
| 09:20.10 | jsmanrique | MasterIA PDA -> 300 USD more or less |
| 09:20.15 | florian | Order where to ship where to? |
| 09:20.21 | jsmanrique | MasterIA SDK -> 200 USD more or less |
| 09:20.45 | jsmanrique | order to MasterIA, Taiwan, ship to Spain |
| 09:21.27 | jsmanrique | my contact ther is Weng@masteria.com.tw |
| 09:23.08 | florian | Hmm.. i've heard of them... but afaik they don't do much business in europe... |
| 09:23.40 | florian | including shipping... eh... and taxes :-/?! |
| 09:24.03 | jsmanrique | not sure now |
| 09:28.51 | florian | especially for taxes you should check before ordering something in aforeign country... especially from germany i know that this may cost a lot... |
| 09:31.41 | jsmanrique | not sure, I have ordered a calc to Singapur, and final cost wasn't much more |
| 09:32.43 | florian | maybe this is different in spain... |
| 09:32.48 | jsmanrique | but, you could try and see |
| 09:35.03 | florian | yep, would be the solution... |
| 09:43.08 | jsmanrique | I asking on Spanish gnome developers forum about someone that could do a note taker program, similar to Microsoft Journal, and someone interested on Evolution-GPE integration |
| 09:43.43 | jsmanrique | a friend of mine told me that he has tried to understant usql format in gpe-calendar, but he gave up |
| 09:44.18 | jsmanrique | a nice add-on for Calendar would be to add categories like gpe-contacts for reminders |
| 09:44.48 | florian | I never looked at calendars sql, but i think that this can't be so hard... |
| 09:45.42 | jsmanrique | another thing I've seen on gpe apps is that just a few have similar gui look |
| 09:46.16 | jsmanrique | isn't there a GPE Interface Guide? (GIG like HIG) |
| 09:46.32 | jsmanrique | I have seen it on the wiki, but not look too much |
| 09:48.38 | florian | yes, but some apps still lack on this... i think there is a link to it at gpe.handhelds.org |
| 09:49.26 | *** join/#gpe mallum (~mallum@82-35-112-58.cable.ubr07.dals.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 09:50.00 | florian | morning mallum |
| 09:50.06 | jsmanrique | it would needed to have a GPE look&felling |
| 09:50.10 | jsmanrique | mallum : hello |
| 09:50.44 | jsmanrique | and for Journal like app, sketch is a good hacking candidate |
| 09:51.11 | jsmanrique | all it needs is a image background, or some lines, similar to a notebook |
| 09:51.34 | jsmanrique | I know it is easier to say that to do |
| 09:52.14 | florian | http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/GpeHIG |
| 09:52.44 | mallum | hello :-) |
| 09:53.01 | mallum | jsmanrique: you mumbling on about tabletGnome again ;-) ? |
| 09:54.04 | jsmanrique | mallum : :-D |
| 09:54.28 | jsmanrique | mallum : XP TabletPC Edition vs XD2 TabletPC Edition :-D |
| 09:54.48 | jsmanrique | but there is no Linux TabletPC :( |
| 09:55.02 | jsmanrique | mallum : ok, you have a Linux TabletPC ;-) |
| 09:55.11 | mallum | jsmanrique: compaq runs Linux just fine |
| 09:55.24 | mallum | jsmanrique: jamey even got the internal wlan working |
| 09:55.47 | jsmanrique | mallum : nice, what distro have you installed on yours? |
| 09:55.52 | mallum | jsmanrique: debian |
| 09:56.01 | jsmanrique | mallum : I think it is too hacking needed to run Linux on it |
| 09:56.21 | jsmanrique | mallum : do you have a dual OS tablet or just Linux? |
| 09:56.27 | mallum | jsmanrique: dual OS |
| 09:56.41 | mallum | jsmanrique: I havn't tried to boot XP on it lately so I dont know if it still works |
| 09:56.50 | jsmanrique | mallum : :-DDD |
| 10:00.01 | florian | cvs server: [09:59:25] waiting for jamey's lock in /cvs |
| 10:00.10 | jsmanrique | mallum : what is the hardest part to configure on it? |
| 10:00.37 | mallum | jsmanrique: nothing is really that hard |
| 10:00.59 | jsmanrique | mallum : touchscreen? |
| 10:01.17 | mallum | jsmanrique: theres a driver for bigX and tinyx |
| 10:01.40 | mallum | jsmanrique: just drop it in the modules dir and edit XF86 config accordingly |
| 10:02.46 | jsmanrique | mallum : and does it work with the Tablet pen? |
| 10:02.52 | mallum | jsmanrique: yep |
| 10:03.22 | jsmanrique | mallum : sorry, I wanted to say if it works same than XP |
| 10:03.45 | jsmanrique | mallum : it seems that the pen has some features (not just a plastic piece) |
| 10:03.54 | mallum | jsmanrique: the biggest problem I had was the debian installer not loading / setting up the usb keyboard/mouse. but that work fine with mandrake when I tested it |
| 10:04.04 | mallum | jsmanrique: yes same as XP |
| 10:04.41 | jsmanrique | mallum : nice. Have you solved the usb problem? |
| 10:05.56 | mallum | jsmanrique: yes |
| 10:06.15 | mallum | jsmanrique: I forget how I got round it though :/ |
| 10:06.39 | jsmanrique | :-) |
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| 10:07.24 | *** join/#gpe nelson (~nelson@desk.crynwr.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 10:13.17 | jsmanrique | mallum : so mandrake worked on it too |
| 10:13.59 | jsmanrique | mallum : I have the 2 CD from Mandrake 9.1, so maybe I should earn some money to buy a TC1100 :-) |
| 10:27.58 | *** join/#gpe pb_ (~pb@dsl-62-3-66-201.zen.co.uk) |
| 10:28.28 | florian | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:28.31 | pb_ | morning |
| 10:28.59 | jsmanrique | pb_ : hi! good morning |
| 10:29.31 | pb_ | hi florian |
| 10:29.31 | pb_ | hi jsmanrique |
| 10:29.51 | mallum | jsmanrique: there pretty slow though :/ |
| 10:30.47 | jsmanrique | mallum : yes, that's it what I've heard about TC1100 |
| 10:31.06 | jsmanrique | mallum : and it doens't come with Spanish keyboard (even the software keyboard) |
| 10:32.10 | jsmanrique | mallum : but using Linux, I have xkbd and GOK :-) |
| 10:32.36 | jsmanrique | mallum : I should have one before next national Linux congress :-) |
| 10:32.59 | jsmanrique | maybe, I am not sure yet, I would give a talk about GPE, but nto sure yet |
| 10:33.51 | jsmanrique | first I would like to update my ipaq ;-) |
| 10:39.02 | florian | brb |
| 10:41.05 | jsmanrique | see you later |
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| 10:43.44 | *** join/#gpe jsmanrique (~jsmanriqu@79.Red-213-98-110.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 10:43.49 | jsmanrique | back again :-) |
| 10:44.28 | florian | re |
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| 12:05.56 | pigeon | pb_: Hi :) |
| 12:06.56 | pigeon | Something's wrong with this fam0.7/gpe now... trying to boot it with init=/bin/sh, but it just gave me the busybox help at the console and halted. -.- |
| 12:07.31 | pb_ | hi pigeon! |
| 12:07.41 | pb_ | use init=/bin/sh sh |
| 12:07.46 | pb_ | ie one more "sh" on the end. |
| 12:07.57 | pigeon | Hmm. |
| 12:08.21 | pigeon | I got console=ttySA0 after init=/bin/sh too |
| 12:08.32 | pb_ | That's ok. You could move that before init= to be safe. |
| 12:08.39 | pigeon | Ok... |
| 12:08.50 | cmarqu_werk | mallum: gmane.org is that mail2news GW. It's also linked from gpe.hh.org |
| 12:09.02 | cmarqu_werk | Hi guys |
| 12:09.21 | pb_ | hi cmarqu_werk |
| 12:10.13 | pigeon | I see... |
| 12:10.55 | pb_ | pigeon: it's mostly the kernel's fault, I think. It sets argv[0] to "init", not the name of the program it is invoking. |
| 12:11.39 | pigeon | Ahha |
| 12:11.53 | pigeon | I accidentally found a bug/issue with fam0.7/gpe |
| 12:12.09 | pb_ | Oh yes? |
| 12:12.24 | pigeon | I set the date/time in the gpe setup, I set timezone to that "<advanced>" |
| 12:12.36 | pigeon | And then it writes export TZ=<> in /etc/profile |
| 12:13.03 | pb_ | Ah, that doesn't sound ideal. |
| 12:13.06 | pigeon | Then gpe or gpe-dm not running properly. |
| 12:30.05 | cmarqu_werk | http://handhelds.org/scap/port.3585.png - I think we should make that font scaling value a bit smaller. |
| 12:31.42 | florian | Hm yes, i think this is a good idea... |
| 12:32.00 | pb_ | Yeah, could be. |
| 12:53.32 | mallum | cmarqu_werk: thanks, I found it anyway |
| 12:53.57 | mallum | cmarqu_werk: Im debating on weather to unsubscribe from all my various mailing lists and just use gmame instead |
| 14:05.42 | cmarqu_werk | mallum: Yeah, gmane rules. |
| 15:05.37 | *** part/#gpe mstr (~mstrandm@cs140160.pp.htv.fi) |
| 15:15.50 | AntiProxy | pigeon: the bug goes beyond that with me |
| 15:16.48 | AntiProxy | after changing the timezone setting a couple of times.. some how gpe sets a default timezone automatically, then everytime you change timezones, gpe reverts to the default one after changing the time of course |
| 15:16.53 | moray | cmarqu_werk: possibly smaller default font scaling would be good - but we should also make that (and everything else) work with bigger fonts than the current defaults as well |
| 15:17.13 | moray | cmarqu_werk: not everyone can read tiny fonts unfortunately |
| 15:17.23 | AntiProxy | so i can keep pushing my time setting in the futures by simply switching from GMT to GST a couple of times |
| 15:18.55 | AntiProxy | what puzzies me is the time reported by my coneole too: ' Wed Jun 4 05:17:17 GST 2003 ' ( it's synchronized, and GST should be UTC/GMT+4 thus the time should be 19:17 not 05:17 ) |
| 15:30.07 | *** join/#gpe Nallic (~per@130.225.71.247) |
| 15:36.41 | cmarqu_werk | moray: Yeah, dillo should somehow follow the font spec in gpe-conf. My point was that when a web page doesn't specify an explicit font size (as gpe.hh.org does), dillo should use approximately the same font size that the rest of the desktop uses. |
| 15:39.59 | mallum | florian: doh, looks like we'll need sub menu's for all the setting stuff |
| 15:41.16 | mallum | hmm opie has a dasher app ? |
| 15:42.06 | pb_ | yeah, seems that Matthew Garrett is working on it as we speak. |
| 15:42.07 | moray | mallum: yeah, matthew's working on that one |
| 15:42.18 | PaxAnima | damn, it's hot... |
| 15:42.19 | moray | mallum: while stargirl seems to be slacking on the GPE one... |
| 15:42.35 | pb_ | he seems to be having some problems with it crashing opie and running at glacial speed, though, so there is still time for gpe-dasher to catch up :-) |
| 15:42.47 | mallum | hehe |
| 15:42.55 | cmarqu_werk | Phew :) |
| 15:44.12 | mallum | I've been hacking on this little 'input manager' panel app which 'wraps' xkbd and a heavily hacked xmerlin ( and anything else ) . I hope to release it soonish |
| 15:44.36 | PaxAnima | mallum: how hackis is it? |
| 15:44.48 | mallum | PaxAnima: what xmerlin ? |
| 15:45.19 | PaxAnima | mallum: no, the panel input manager? |
| 15:46.30 | mallum | PaxAnima: oh it works :-) , It currently exists in matchbox source. I have to move it out of there and make it read a config file. Then ipkg it and xmerlin |
| 15:46.49 | PaxAnima | ok |
| 15:48.04 | mallum | PaxAnima: but it needs matbox 0.6 and currently every 2 steps forward I make with it, I seem to take 3 back :/ |
| 15:48.13 | cmarqu_werk | Is xmerlin grid-based like xstroke? |
| 15:48.29 | PaxAnima | mallum: :/ |
| 15:49.07 | mallum | cmarqu_werk: no I dont think so |
| 15:49.51 | mallum | cmarqu_werk: it uses some crack fueled crazy stuff I was unable to figure out |
| 15:50.21 | cmarqu_werk | Aha. Gotta read that thesis. |
| 15:50.43 | mallum | yeah, I was too lazy todo so |
| 15:52.10 | mallum | I have to wrip the key sending part out of xkbd, clean it up a bit and make it a lib - xmerlin can then use it too |
| 15:53.03 | cmarqu_werk | Sounds nice. |
| 15:53.18 | mallum | yeah I'll never get round to it of course |
| 15:54.24 | mallum | it would be cool if xstroke existed without a panel app - eg you messaged it in someway to activate it |
| 15:58.56 | cmarqu_werk | Gotta go, bye. |
| 15:59.00 | *** part/#gpe cmarqu_werk (www@vws1.kens.com) |
| 15:59.50 | moray | mallum: yes, I'd like to get GTK sending a signal appropriately so that the input method pops up when you get into a writable icon |
| 15:59.57 | moray | mallum: should we use D-BUS or something for that? |
| 16:00.12 | moray | mallum: or X properties of some sort? |
| 16:00.41 | mallum | moray: I thought about that |
| 16:01.56 | mallum | moray: I guess this inputmgr could grab an X selection, which a gtk app could easily look up and then message it, saying it wants an input mechanism to popup - the inputmgr then pops it up |
| 16:02.41 | mallum | moray: I think x messaging is enough, it'd be a very simple protocol |
| 16:02.44 | florian | mallum: that shouldn't that difficult... but a newer dillo is more important as well. |
| 16:03.03 | moray | mallum: yeah |
| 16:03.14 | moray | mallum: you need to be able to get the current text as well as send it |
| 16:03.28 | florian | mallum: especially one including the ssl patch! |
| 16:03.52 | moray | mallum: for a simple icon you might just say 'send the text', but I'm not sure that's the right answer if you're editing some huge file :/ |
| 16:04.02 | moray | maybe you should always send the whole current 'line' though |
| 16:04.37 | moray | mallum: (since more complex input methods want to know what's going on around them) |
| 16:05.00 | moray | mallum: but possibly just being able to look up e.g. 'what was the previous letter' would be better |
| 16:05.30 | mallum | moray: no it would send any text as such, it would just say 'I want text input launch the selected app that does this' |
| 16:06.24 | mallum | moray: the actual 'emulating' of a keyboard - sending the actual key events, would be done by the launched app itself |
| 16:06.28 | florian | mallum: btw. when do you think you'll be ready to create packages of the new matchbox? |
| 16:07.09 | moray | mallum: for e.g. GTK, however, the current method of 'emulating a keyboard' to send text isn't necessarily ideal |
| 16:07.10 | mallum | florian: I have to fix up some things some handle multiple sublevels |
| 16:07.30 | moray | mallum: for programmes which understand the protocol it would be nice to be able to just send UTF-8 back and forth |
| 16:07.56 | mallum | moray: like X key events ? |
| 16:10.45 | florian | mallum: especially the feature to change the desktop font color would be nice. a black font is a bad idea for most people that want backgrond images... |
| 16:10.48 | mallum | moray: Can you give me an example of when you think sending 'fake' key events is not appropriate |
| 16:11.12 | mallum | florian: yeah, I was thinking about a black font with a white outline - it should always be visible then |
| 16:11.17 | moray | mallum: I was under the impression that you can only send events for which a keyboard mapping is defined? |
| 16:11.43 | mallum | florian: ( though currently you can change the color on the fly ) |
| 16:11.55 | mallum | moray: you just remap the key on the fly - thats what xkbd does |
| 16:13.55 | mallum | moray: or I guess you'd use xkb extension - dunno much about that |
| 16:14.29 | moray | mallum: can a hypothetical xkbd layout include e.g. U+10800 CYPRIOT SYLLABLE A, to pick something arbitrary and obscure? |
| 16:14.47 | moray | (perhaps I need to write down more clearly what I think the requirements are, however) |
| 16:15.13 | florian | mallum: this would be cool - but changing the color would be the first step... i think this is easier to implement, or not? |
| 16:15.40 | mallum | moray: yeah as long as you know the X keysym names for them |
| 16:16.02 | mallum | florian: yeah - Im not sure how you'd outline text with xft |
| 16:16.11 | cworth | mallum: fixing xstroke would be a nice topic for all of us to talk about in Texas. |
| 16:16.15 | moray | mallum: but would there actually be an x keysym name for that? |
| 16:17.01 | mallum | florian: I guess you could shadow text easy enough, but that always looks a little cheesy to me |
| 16:17.27 | mallum | moray: you'd have to look at /usr/include/X11/keysym.h |
| 16:17.48 | moray | mallum: well, it's a letter from a long-dead language, so I doubt it rather |
| 16:19.07 | florian | mallum: hm yes, i think this depends of the background... or not? |
| 16:19.09 | moray | mallum: it doesn't seem right to me to have to define keysyms for every unicode character just so that a special input method can let you select them |
| 16:19.27 | moray | mallum: most of them are never going to be on a physical keyboard |
| 16:19.44 | moray | mallum: and a normal alternative input method for X at the moment would just make you copy and paste such things in |
| 16:20.31 | mallum | moray: hmmm, I think gtk input extension? stuff does that kind of thing |
| 16:20.59 | AntiProxy | http://handhelds.org/scap/port.31778.png |
| 16:21.02 | AntiProxy | .) |
| 16:21.20 | AntiProxy | almost 99% done except for the main setup screen which is being rewritten |
| 16:21.58 | florian | AntiProxy: hey, cool! |
| 16:22.34 | florian | AntiProxy: Looks really usable now :-) |
| 16:22.52 | PaxAnima | AntiProxy: tried using a more space efficient gtkrc? |
| 16:23.31 | AntiProxy | PaxAnima: just a lil change to make those tab buttons thinner |
| 16:23.41 | PaxAnima | ok |
| 16:23.42 | AntiProxy | style "xchat-tab-set" { |
| 16:23.42 | AntiProxy | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:23.42 | AntiProxy | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:23.42 | AntiProxy | } |
| 16:23.55 | AntiProxy | that's all i could figure out on my own.. couldn't find one reference with all the style properties |
| 16:24.09 | PaxAnima | AntiProxy: did you look at the gtkrc I use for psCalc2? |
| 16:24.23 | AntiProxy | PaxAnima: nope .) |
| 16:24.31 | PaxAnima | AntiProxy: well, do it ;) |
| 16:25.08 | AntiProxy | PaxAnima: btw.. here's what it looked like yesterday : http://handhelds.org/scap/port.19778.png |
| 16:25.26 | PaxAnima | AntiProxy: yepp |
| 16:25.51 | PaxAnima | AntiProxy: I could paste in the gtkrc style properties, if you don't want to install the excellent psCalc2 ;) |
| 16:27.41 | AntiProxy | ipkgfind isn't finding the file |
| 16:27.50 | AntiProxy | http://ipkgfind.handhelds.org/details.phtml?package=pscalc2&official=&format= |
| 16:28.00 | AntiProxy | i thought i'd be lazy and download the gtkrc file only .) |
| 16:28.11 | PaxAnima | ;) |
| 16:29.29 | AntiProxy | mmm.. neat |
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| 17:56.17 | *** join/#gpe florian (~fuchs@p50928EF7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:56.21 | florian | re |
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| 18:49.40 | mallum | pb_: have you seen http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~jwillcox/net-wm-migrate.html ? |
| 18:55.20 | mallum | pb_: it seems pretty odd to me :/ |
| 19:13.45 | pb_ | Is that the same thing that he posted to the xdg list? |
| 19:14.22 | mallum | pb_: yeah |
| 19:14.29 | mallum | pb_: I can never seem to connect to the host, but the guy just mailed me it |
| 19:14.50 | pb_ | I looked at it back when he posted it initially. Don't remember many of the details though. |
| 19:16.29 | mallum | pb_: I dunno why it dont get much feedback on the list |
| 19:17.21 | pb_ | Dunno. I haven't been really been reading the xdg list for the past couple of months. |
| 19:18.07 | pb_ | I looked at that page just now, and his proposal looks fairly reasonable to me. |
| 19:20.03 | mallum | pb_: yeah not sure why the wm has to get involved |
| 19:20.43 | mallum | pb_: and dont like the key=value thing much really - but for it to be nicely extensable I cant think of a better way round it |
| 19:24.13 | AntiProxy | back |
| 19:31.00 | pb_ | well, doesn't look like the application requesting migration actually needs to be the window manager. As far as I can tell, anybody can generate the request. |
| 19:33.27 | mallum | pb_: yes I think its just badly worded - 'Window Managers' |
| 19:36.04 | pb_ | yeah. |
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| 19:37.06 | mallum | maybe he's hacked something into metacity to add an option to window drop down menus, and then its metacity that does the actual migration - thus he's he's thinking about it from a different perspective |
| 19:37.33 | pb_ | could be, yeah. |
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| 20:50.10 | nelson | mallum: is there a window manager that works with gnome that doesn't suck? |
| 20:50.39 | nelson | mallum: (where "sucking" is defined as "makes a 500Mhz pentium run like an 5 Mhz 8088" |
| 20:51.35 | PaxAnima | nelson: that's just gnome... |
| 20:53.48 | nelson | PaxAnima: okay, then how do I fix gnome? Is there an adjustment I can crank which goes from "less stupid to more faster"? |
| 20:54.07 | PaxAnima | nelson: dunno.. don't used gnome... been a while since last time... |
| 20:54.09 | nelson | PaxAnima: or is it just a matter of donating some 200 Mhz machines to various Gnome developers MOTHERS. |
| 20:54.34 | nelson | "Son, why does my computer run so slowly?? Oh? WELL DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT" |
| 20:54.38 | TheMasterMind1 | haha |
| 20:55.02 | nelson | it's pitiful, really. |
| 20:55.43 | nelson | I wrote a program for the 5 Mhz Zenith Z-100 which blows the socks off anything I've seen under Red Hat 8. |
| 20:56.04 | PaxAnima | Zenith Z-100? |
| 20:56.13 | nelson | And I DON'T HAVE A SLOW MACHINE! I mean, it's a 500 Mhz machine. That's not SLOW! |
| 20:56.33 | PaxAnima | nelson: sure it is... mine is 2.26 GHz... ;) |
| 20:56.37 | nelson | PaxAnima: pre-ibm-cloning 8088. graphics and serial ports weren't compatible. |
| 20:57.05 | nelson | PaxAnima: there's no excuse for a window system running as slowly as this one does. NONE. ZERO. ZIPPO. |
| 20:57.15 | PaxAnima | nelson: well, don't run it ;) |
| 20:57.40 | nelson | PaxAnima: that's not the answer I was looking for. ;-( |
| 20:58.14 | nelson | No, seriously, Pax, this is an amazingly sophisticated and beautiful piece of crap. |
| 20:58.31 | nelson | it's ... it's .... it's like somebody installed Windows on my machine, and it's only *emulating* Linux. |
| 20:59.00 | nelson | But oooohhhhhhhh, my windows have shaped resize handles. |
| 20:59.23 | nelson | Takes me ten seconds to switch from one screen to another, but oooohhhhhhh, my windows have shaped resize handles. |
| 20:59.32 | nelson | Now doesn't THAT just float my boat! |
| 20:59.59 | nelson | Five HUNDRED MILLION operations a second. |
| 21:00.18 | nelson | So when my computer takes ten seconds to switch from one screen to another, that's um ..... |
| 21:00.22 | moray | nelson: how much RAM do you have? while I'm not arguing that it *should* be slow, I'm intrigued that it is being so slow for you compared to my better (but still pretty cheap) machine |
| 21:00.38 | moray | (and I don't think GNOME 2 is that bad on my (old) 450 MHz machine I have at my brother's) |
| 21:00.44 | nelson | Five billion cycles. |
| 21:01.08 | nelson | 384 million bytes. Million. That's more than a quarter of a gigabyte. |
| 21:01.59 | moray | yeah; my new (a year old) machine has a gigabyte |
| 21:02.19 | nelson | Sorry, more than a third of a gigabyte. |
| 21:02.37 | nelson | The problem, very simply, is that gnome developers aren't using the machines they're developing for. |
| 21:02.45 | mallum | nelson: I run metacity on a 550mhz powerpc |
| 21:03.16 | mallum | nelson: and then I run a few mbdocks for thinks like clock battery stats etc |
| 21:03.18 | nelson | And that's a problem. You always need more resources to do development, but I feel like I'm practically *forced* to upgrade by this LOUSY software. |
| 21:03.23 | mallum | nelson: I dont bother we a desktop |
| 21:03.25 | moray | I'm certainly amazed at how much RAM some stuff manages to take up, but, as I said, my 450 MHz machine doesn't seem to have the same problems you're describing (with 256 MB RAM) |
| 21:04.05 | nelson | moray: I didn't have these problems before switching to gtk2. |
| 21:04.14 | nelson | (and Red Hat 8 at the same time) |
| 21:04.20 | mallum | nelson: what video card you have in it ? |
| 21:04.45 | nelson | mallum: Ati 64MB Radeon 7000 |
| 21:04.55 | mallum | nelson: hmm, with ati drivers ? |
| 21:05.24 | mallum | nelson: the xfree ones ( not binary only ), your not using vesa or fbdev or summin |
| 21:06.34 | nelson | mallum: the xfree86 ones. |
| 21:06.44 | mallum | nelson: and the gnome terminal always seems slow as a dog to me on anything |
| 21:06.50 | mallum | nelson: I just stick with rxvt |
| 21:07.36 | nelson | mallum: I'm running xterm. I suppose rxvt would be faster. |
| 21:07.57 | nelson | mallum: I've had gnome terminal crash on me. When it does, it takes out ALL YOUR SESSIONS. Somebody botched THAT program. |
| 21:08.24 | nelson | I typically have 16 xterms open at the same time. |
| 21:08.50 | mallum | nelson: yeah me too |
| 21:08.57 | nelson | supposedly the ATI Radeon 7000 has good 2D performance. |
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| 21:09.32 | mallum | nelson: rxvts, galeon and xchat |
| 21:09.32 | mallum | nelson: change the metcity theme to a lighter one ( with solid color and no shaped windows ) |
| 21:09.35 | mallum | nelson: that should speed things up a little |
| 21:09.35 | nelson | Sorry to rant at everybody, but I just don't understand where all my cycles are going. I mean, five hundred million cycles, every second, and the vast majority of them seem wasted. |
| 21:09.53 | nelson | mallum: that's a good suggestion. |
| 21:09.57 | mallum | nelson: yeah the ati's are nice cards |
| 21:10.06 | mallum | nelson: check the Xserver is niced up to -10 as well |
| 21:11.12 | nelson | it is. |
| 21:11.43 | nelson | It takes the Red Hat menu four seconds to render. |
| 21:12.11 | moray | nelson: hm, that's quite impressive |
| 21:12.37 | mallum | nelson: yeah gnome menu always seemed slow to me |
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| 21:44.07 | florian | night all |
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| 23:46.28 | AntiProxy | http://www.antiproxy.com:35000/HandHeld/Software/X-Chat/ |
| 23:52.50 | TheMasterMind1 | AntiProxy: great job with that, looks awesome |
| 23:53.48 | AntiProxy | TheMasterMind1: thanks.. i still have a long way to go .) |
| 23:54.52 | AntiProxy | have to rewrite the Serverlist and the Preferences.. |
| 23:55.15 | AntiProxy | not that i really need to use them after the initial setup, but i'm sure if this goes into the feeds everyone would complain .) |
