irclog2html for gpe on 2002.09.06

07:49:34cosentinohello
07:49:42cosentinois it possible to setup emailsync to check every 5mins if there is a new pop3 mail?
07:49:56cosentinoand where can i find gpe-today?
07:58:03pb_talk to spung about gpe-today
08:03:43pb_morning mallum
08:06:30mallumhey pb
08:07:23modpb_: ?
08:08:26pb_mod: ?
08:08:53mallumpb_, mod: ?
08:09:20pb_mallum: !
08:09:35mallumpb_: ?!£@$%
08:09:42pb_mallum: you win.
09:18:47modwhere can i find gpe-today?
09:19:12modis it possible to setup emailsync to check every 5mins if there is a new pop3 mail?
09:22:24mallummod: gpe-today is a figment of spungs wierd wild world
09:22:47mallummod: I dont think he's had the bottle to release it yet
09:25:31PaxAnimagpe-today is in the unstable feed?
10:25:30pb_There is no gpe-today in unstable as far as I can see.
10:28:44ujsmanriqehello
10:29:22ujsmanriqePaxAnima: sorry, I haven't tested your calculator yet :(
11:13:42mccarthyI wish I could just GIVE UP on the damn alarm!
11:15:30mccarthy:)
11:18:31PaxAnimadoing the calendar?
11:18:40mccarthyalways... ;)
11:19:16PaxAnimanot an easy way of doing it?
11:19:39mccarthylots of ways, but none so easy
11:19:56mccarthyplus nils and pb actually want it to be a *good* way to do it :(
11:20:03mccarthyI just want it to *work*
11:20:06PaxAnimahe
11:20:35PaxAnimawrite a file to the "at" dir?
11:22:04PaxAnimaI'm doing my own PIM thingy, and I think I'll opt for that dirty solution
11:22:44mccarthywhy are  you writing your own thingie?!
11:22:55mccarthydont wanna help the rest of us? ;)
11:22:57PaxAnimato learn GTK
11:23:08PaxAnimaI'm glad to help out, by all means
11:24:37PaxAnimamine is very Palm friendly
11:28:08mallumPaxAnima: have you released the source yet ?
11:28:28PaxAnimamallum: far too ugly at the moment
11:28:37PaxAnimawan't to clean up the code before releasing it
11:29:28mallumbah
11:30:24PaxAnimabut as I said, I'm more than happy to contribute to the GPE PIM stuff, if it's needed
12:05:28pb_PaxAnima: well, you have the source: if you want to contribute, the thing to do is to start writing patches.
12:07:13pb_mccarthy: you should apply pressure to Nils to produce this document he was talking about.
12:12:10PaxAnimapb_: the most interesting part of the code would be the import stuff
12:12:50pb_PaxAnima: the code that already exists for import is in CVS too, albeit under the not-entirely-obvious module name of gpe-beam.
12:13:12pb_PaxAnima: I have been waiting for libmimedir to solidify a bit before pursuing that very aggressively.
12:14:07PaxAnimaI use libversit, and it works, but not very future proof
12:14:19pb_PaxAnima: indeed.
12:15:59pb_well, there are a variety of tasks related to data exchange that need to be done: you could...
12:16:29PaxAnimaapart from libversit code, I have CSV  and AddressDB.pdb import for the address book
12:16:46pb_(a) send patches to Sebastian to improve libmimedir; (b) start designing a sync framework; (c) implement more of the mimedir <-> SQL conversions; (d) start work on obex send/receive
12:17:42pb_or yeah, other format conversions would be useful too.
12:18:38PaxAnimafor (d), looking at irobex_palm3 from the opbenobex-apps package is a good start
12:19:56pb_sure, go for it.
12:20:13PaxAnimaI have
12:21:34pb_ok.
12:24:53mallumpb_: hmm, looks like fontconfig it has an official realease ( see /. )
12:25:22mallumpb_: I guess now jg can build X from 4.2 with the ts patch backported and do fontconfig as a seperate package
12:25:54pb_mallum: ah cool.
12:26:05pb_mallum: I really ought to get my finger out and build those GTK 2.2 packages.
12:26:22PaxAnimagtk2.2?
12:27:15pb_yup.
12:27:15morayoh, I was speaking to Stephen Tweedie at EdLUG yesterday, and he went all silent when I mentioned jg's announcement of possible new font stuff, since apparently sct knows what it's about (but didn't tell me ;)...
12:27:34mallumsct ?
12:27:40morayStephen Tweedie
12:27:46mallumwho's he ?
12:27:49pb_redhat guy
12:27:50morayext3 guy
12:28:00mallumfrom a popular bbc childrens TV program ?
12:28:13moraykernel hacker etc. at Red Hat - but used to be at DEC with jg it turns out
12:28:22mallumah
12:28:40mallummoray: I did mention that I though RH may try and buy some fonts too ....
12:29:15moraymallum: right. though it's of course *possible* that Stephen knows about this because Red Hat are involved somehow anyway
12:32:24mallummoray: RH are hiring new people too, which would suggest they have money too
12:34:52moray(and they of course can't rely on the Microsoft fonts, given their product isn't cost-free)
12:35:32mallummoray: yeah, but I there new beta release is using the luxi stuff
12:35:42mallummoray: but of cours ethey arn't hinited
12:36:21morayyes, sct was pointing that out
12:37:13morayhe was also pointing out that the truetype hinting patents cover the process of hinting, so if they really wanted to they could get round them by supplying fonts including lots of embedded hinted bitmaps
12:37:26mccarthypb_: I am making a gpe version of my old "announce" code
12:37:27moraybut pointed out that was suboptimal due to people wanting anti-aliasing
12:37:42mallummoray: http://www.gnomedesktop.com/article.php?sid=616&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
12:37:47mccarthypb_: I am trying to do the xgettext stuff (stolen straight from gpe-calendar)
12:37:55mallummoray: yeah except xft dont support embedded bitmaps IIRC
12:38:05mccarthypb_: but I am getting an error. can you help or should I cut it for now?
12:41:48pb_mccarthy: what is the error?
12:42:07mccarthymv: cannot stat `po/gpe-announce.pot.new': No such file or directory
12:42:17pb_what's in your po directory?
12:42:21mccarthyI have no idea when/where this file is made
12:42:30mccarthy[mccarthy@ballotini gpe-announce]$ ls po/
12:42:31mccarthyCVS/  de.mo  de.po  gpe-announce.pot  Makefile  pt_PT.mo  pt_PT.po
12:42:45pb_hmm
12:42:55pb_can you show me the output immediately prior to the error?
12:43:21mccarthyxgettext -k_ -o po/gpe-announce.pot.new main.c interface.c callbacks.c
12:43:22mccarthyif cmp -s po/gpe-announce.pot.new gpe-announce.pot; then rm po/gpe-announce.pot.new; else mv po/gpe-announce.pot.new po/gpe-announce.pot; fi
12:44:08pb_bizarre
12:44:14pb_that xgettext call is what creates the file.
12:45:14mccarthypb_: I have no idea what a po file is....nor how they are generated.
12:45:26mccarthypb_: I copied them from gpe-calendar, could that be the problem?
12:45:59mccarthypb_: the files (now that I look at them) have all kinds of calendar-specific stuff in them
12:46:29pb_oh.
12:46:43pb_you shouldn't have copied any of the files in the po/ directory.
12:47:21mccarthypb_: not even the Makefile?
12:47:27pb_no, I don't think so.
12:47:55mccarthypb_: well now *nothing* is there :)
12:48:01mccarthypb_: didnt help
12:48:21mccarthypb_: I will cut it for now. when it gets to CVS you can fix it for me ;)
12:52:06pb_righto.
12:53:16mccarthypb_: thanks.
12:53:33mccarthypb_: I will have a working alarm thingie soon. Not *perfect* but working.
12:53:39mccarthylater, class
14:50:46ReadAnimapb_: what is the correct way of doing an alarm for an calendar?
14:57:15pb_ReadAnima: what do you mean?
14:58:06PaxAnimamccarthy said that you wanted to do the alarm in gpe-calendar in a "good" way
14:58:15PaxAnimawhat is the "good" way?
14:58:26pb_I don't know.
14:58:54gribpb_: it's a very hard problem
14:59:27gribespecially the general "what is cron supposed to do with a machine that's not always on" problem
14:59:38PaxAnimathinking of doing the alarm by just writing a file to /var/spool/at, since the atd daemon takes care of the ipaq beeing in sleep or not
15:00:20pb_PaxAnima: I suggest you write a proposal and send it to the mailing list.
15:01:19PaxAnimahow?
15:01:33pb_PaxAnima: and maybe talk to Max or one of the other opie guys, to see if you can come up with a solution that opie and gpe can share.
15:01:55pb_um, just in an email.
15:04:24PaxAnimapb_: who is Max? What's his nick?
15:05:47pb_Harlekin.
15:05:57PaxAnimaok
15:31:06DragonEagleenjoys the silence
15:36:31pb_mccarthy: looks like paxanima is going to produce some kind of plan for alarms.
15:36:50mccarthypb_: well I am going to test a "working" thing over the weekend
15:37:00pb_ok.
15:37:22mccarthypb:"working" because I still had to hack nils rtcd and I am gonna make no attempt to handle *recurring* alarms yet
15:37:47pb_right.
15:37:48DragonEagleanyone interested in a blackjack game for gpe?
15:37:59pb_sure, more games are always good.
15:38:14DragonEagleI've got a backend coded in python, just need to give it a gui
15:38:24mccarthypb_: I dont know how to checkin a whole directory :(
15:38:44mccarthypb_: well... more to the point checking something that is then recognized as a "module"
15:38:54pb_DragonEagle: ah, gpe is a python-free environment
15:39:05pb_DragonEagle: don't suppose you wanna rewrite it in C?
15:39:17DragonEaglepb_: C==evil, but I'll try
15:39:38pb_mccarthy: just "cvs add" the directory,
15:39:45pb_mccarthy: what module are you trying to create?
15:39:54mccarthypb_: gpe-announce
15:40:38pb_ah right.
15:42:28pb_oh wow, armlinux.org is back.
15:46:27DragonEagle...decision made, no way...too oo based :)
15:47:01DragonEagleit took me 2 days to put it all into classes, declassifying it would be a pita
15:47:08pb_use C++ then.
15:47:35DragonEaglechecks the Cero Coso Course catalog :)
15:49:24DragonEagleI'll have to find another way, mabey c++ later, after I learn it :) but for now, I'll make it available for familiar
15:49:32pb_Okay, cool.
15:50:02DragonEaglebut C cleanup of linked lists is a nightmare
15:52:35moraypb_: ah, and inkvine's (quite possibly temporarily) back, which is useful given that I have some data I needed to get off it...
15:53:13pb_moray: indeed.
15:53:28pb_moray: amusingly, inkvine is reporting an uptime of 130 days, so it was clearly running all this time but unreachable.
15:53:44moraypb_: hm. it's all a bit silly really...
15:53:54pb_moray: inkvine _is_ armlinux.org, to a first approximation anyway :-)
15:56:16pb_right, time to go home.
16:32:53mccarthydoes anyone know how we are supposed to make sounds now that we use the sound-server?
16:36:53gribit's more organic now
16:37:10gribmccarthy: instead of playing an mp3, you just hum the song quietly to yourself :)
16:37:43mccarthy:)
16:38:38cmarqumccarthy: There is isoundd out there, but not as an ipk AFAIK
16:38:51cmarqumccarthy: Storm used madplay
16:39:10mccarthypb_: how do I make a sound nowadays?
16:39:40pb_mccarthy: as in play a PCM sample, or synthesize one?
16:39:57mccarthypb_: as in use nils soundgen code?
16:40:05pb_I guess so.
16:40:06mccarthy(damn nils)
16:40:10pb_!
16:40:23pb_It's in libgpe, I think, though that may not be the best place.
16:40:24mccarthypb_: no, I mean, it doesnt work becasue of esd (I think)
16:40:34pb_Oh, I see.
16:41:02pb_Yeah, he tries to open /dev/dsp.  Change that to use esd_play_stream and it should be OK.
16:41:22mccarthypb_: example?
16:41:35pb_gpe-nmf
16:41:50mccarthypb_: which file?
16:41:56pb_audio.c I think.
16:44:34mccarthypb_: wow. this makes no sense to me....
16:44:47mccarthypb_: I think I must soon stop coding this stuff (it is out of my league)
16:45:21pb_mccarthy: esd is fairly straightforward, you just use esd_play_stream{_fallback} to get a fd, and then write to it like you would /dev/dsp.
16:48:47pb_time to go do some violence to a motor vehicle :-/
16:49:17dc_konbanwa
16:49:24cmarquHi dc_
16:49:27dc_bows
16:49:32dc_cmarqu: :)
16:49:38cmarqu:)
16:49:50dc_think I may do some cosmetic treatments to gpe-conf
16:50:16cmarquYeah, it needs some
16:52:41mccarthypb_[ev]: I am going to commit alarm changes to gpe-calendar
16:52:54dc_ooh :)
16:53:19mccarthypb_[ev]: they work with my hacked rtcd and will not hurt anyone who doesnt use it (they simply will not get alarms)
16:53:59mccarthypb_[ev]: so we should *not* release another gpe-calendar until it is all the way fixed and/or we re-hide the alarm notebook page
16:54:29mccarthypb_[ev]: as usual, I will make a testing ipk available (along with a new rtcd and gpe-announce) in my feed
16:54:40mccarthydc_: feel free to teest for me :)
16:55:59dc_:]
16:57:48dc_BBrox: hey
16:57:52BBrox'lo
16:58:08BBroxAnyone going to the iPAQ week-end :-) ?
16:58:15dc_wha?
16:58:18dc_where?
16:58:22cmarquBoston.
16:58:26cmarquA bit far
16:58:32dc_oh heh
16:58:35dc_yeah
16:58:52BBroxWell, I have a working trip in Chicago planned 'soon'... If it falls during this trip, I think I may go :-)
16:59:15mccarthychicago is not close to boston!
16:59:31BBroxI know...
16:59:39BBroxBut Chicago Boston is closer than Toulouse Boston :-)
17:00:00BBrox(Toulouse being in Southern France)
17:00:07dc_hehe
17:00:32mccarthyI would not have gottent he "southern" part, but it sounded far either way :)
17:00:55BBroxAnd it would be nice to revisit Boston (I spent 3 month there 7 years ago)
17:01:39mccarthyI think I am BY FAR the close gpe-er (but I do not think I am going)
17:02:36dc_hey pb_!
17:02:37pb_hmm, that didn't go so well.
17:02:39pb_hey dc_
17:02:42dc_weekend :D
17:02:45dc_pb_: :#
17:02:48dc_pb_: :\
17:02:55pb_dc_: yeah :-)
17:02:55mccarthydc pb ;p
17:03:24pb_mccarthy: ok.
17:03:27dc_hrm, my cvs update is taking months
17:03:28mccarthypb_: scroll up
17:03:35mccarthypb_: ok. it seems you did
17:03:37dc_or maby just ages
17:03:39pb_mccarthy: I don't want to make another gpe-calendar release until the year-view is working properly, anyway.
17:03:54mccarthypb_: good. I would love a nice year view (again :)
17:03:57pb_dc_: ha, obviously people have been busy checking in other stuff.
17:04:08dc_:/
17:04:12dc_hopefully :)
17:04:20pb_mccarthy: I reinstated the old version, but it doesn't look too good at the moment.  Nor does it support popups yet.
17:04:24dc_decides getting a new tree would be quicker
17:04:41mccarthypb_: oh, so my interm ipkg will have the old year-view?
17:04:48pb_mccarthy: yeah.
17:05:07pb_mccarthy: you can get back to the old "new" year view with strategic cvs update commands, if you want.
17:05:21mccarthypb_: nah
17:05:32mccarthypb_: if I turn off esd, will that break madplay again?
17:05:39mccarthy(since madplay now works with esd)
17:05:46pb_mccarthy: dunno, I think it should be ok.
17:06:44mccarthypb_: so in libgpe I would change
17:06:46mccarthydspfd = open("/dev/dsp",O_WRONLY,0)
17:06:48mccarthy??
17:07:17pb_yes.
17:07:22mccarthyto?
17:07:32pb_dspfd = esd_play_stream_fallback (...)
17:08:01mccarthypb_: what is in the ()?
17:08:06mccarthyI am slow :)
17:08:10pb_I think for (...) you want something like (ESD_STEREO | ESD_STREAM | ESD_PLAY, 44100, NULL, NULL)
17:08:32pb_going by the example of gpe-nmf; I don't remember exactly what the two NULLs do.
17:08:48pb_oh, and ESD_BITS16 as well.
17:09:00pb_so the whole line would be:
17:09:19mccarthypb_: headerfiles and libs?
17:09:22pb_dspfd = esd_play_stream_fallback (ESD_BITS16 | ESD_STEREO | ESD_STREAM | ESD_PLAY, 44100, NULL, NULL);
17:09:25pb_<esd.h>, libesd.
17:11:00mccarthySNDCTL_DSP_SPEED: Invalid argument
17:11:28pb_Take those ioctls out, they're not required.
17:11:33cmarquthinks gpe-kbd-setup.menu should go away, and let gpe-conf handle it.
17:11:56pb_cmarqu: indeed.
17:12:06pb_cmarqu: maybe appmgr setup too, or has that already been assimilated?
17:12:15mccarthypb_: yippe!
17:12:59cmarqupb_: Seems it has been, yeah.
17:13:05dc_argf
17:13:16dc_I'm on damn 1p per min untill tuesday
17:13:50dc_now I really have to try and find a job :/
17:13:53mccarthypb_: no esd available on europa?
17:13:54cmarqupb_: Want me to fix gpe-kbd-setup in CVS?
17:14:14dc_cmarqu: gui?
17:14:22dc_cmarqu: or is it broken.
17:14:39cmarqumccarthy: in bugzilla you mean? Use gpe-soundserver maybe
17:14:50cmarqudc_: We don't need the meun item anymore, since we have gpe-conf
17:14:54mccarthyno on pbs machine
17:15:02cmarquAh.
17:15:07dc_cmarqu: ah sure
17:15:10dc_bbl
17:15:10dc_food
17:15:52mccarthypb_: wanna install esd-devel on europa for me
17:15:55pb_mccarthy: sure.
17:16:31mallumhey dc
17:16:38pb_mallum: too late!
17:16:57mallumoopps
17:17:19pb_mccarthy: done.
17:17:33mccarthypb_: thanks
17:17:34pb_ha, looks like one of my neighbours is learning to drive :-)
17:17:53pb_he seems to be cruising round his garden, albeit somewhat erratically, in an old Honda.
17:18:06cmarqu:)
17:18:15mallumpb_: call the police
17:18:41cmarquSoon he will be in pb's garden, by accident.
17:18:42gribautomobile user interfaces are so interesting -- basically nothing is labeled in most cars, at least not labeled verbosely, and no one ever reads the documentation
17:19:00pb_cmarqu: that idea had crossed my mind too :-/
17:19:03gribyou are just expected to try the likely knobs until the lights come on
17:19:22gribwe should do program user interfaces like that :)
17:19:22mccarthypb_: libgpewidget 22 is broken
17:19:24PaxAnimausing a car isn't science
17:19:27pb_mccarthy: can you be more verbose?
17:20:37mccarthypb_: no... maybe it isnt
17:20:47pb_ah.
17:20:51mccarthypb_: *something* is broken, but maybe it is gpe-icons
17:21:00pb_mccarthy: what is the problem you are seeing?
17:21:04mccarthypb_: there is a conflict between gpe-icons and ownerinfo
17:21:25pb_blame cmarqu, that has to be his fault.
17:21:34cmarquEeek?
17:21:51mccarthypb_: damn. I need to remeber to put a file into icons....
17:21:52mccarthyone sec
17:22:00cmarqumccarthy: Did you update the packages from unstable sinece yesterday? It should be okay now.
17:22:30cmarquPackage: gpe-ownerinfo
17:22:30cmarquVersion: 0.04-2
17:22:32PaxAnimapb_: regarding alarms: opie-alarm uses atd, so I guess that's the way to go
17:23:02pb_PaxAnima: ok.  I don't know much about atd, is there any documentation on it?
17:23:34cmarquIt's nelson's atd, and that is a bit different from the old atd AFAIK
17:23:47cmarquThat is. he extended it
17:24:05pb_PaxAnima: what happens if you have both Opie and GPE installed on one machine, with alarms set in both environments, and an Opie alarm goes off while you are running X (or vice versa)?
17:24:12mccarthypb cmarqu PaxAnima: rtcd is *already* better than atd and it barely works!!
17:24:35pb_mccarthy: what is better about it?
17:24:59PaxAnimawhy need 2 daemons for the the same thing?
17:25:09cmarquwonders why ipkg status gpe-kbd gives all that info,  and ipkg status gpe-ownerinfo just a bit of it (like, no Description:)
17:25:27mccarthypb_: atd never worked for me when I tried it (nelson *agreed* on the bugs I identified -- dont recall them), but it needs the wake up at midnight thingie too AFAIK
17:25:53PaxAnimawake up at midnight?
17:25:56pb_ooh crumbs
17:26:05pb_the guy in the Honda just locked up all four wheels.
17:26:14PaxAnimahe
17:26:22pb_fortunately he was heading towards his own house at the time.
17:26:41PaxAnimawho is driving the car? a 2 year old?
17:26:41mccarthygotta go
17:26:51mccarthywatching my old school (Notre Dame) play football!!!!
17:26:55mccarthyyay for me!
17:26:55PaxAnimaany doc on rtcd?
17:26:57pb_PaxAnima: no, I think he's about 16.
17:27:00pb_mccarthy: enjoy!
17:27:09mccarthylater all
17:27:15PaxAnimabye
17:27:25mccarthycheck my feed for (buggy) gpe-calendar with alarms :)
17:28:24pb_ha, cool.
17:28:30PaxAnimaurl?
17:28:43see mccarthy at http://www.engrng.pitt.edu/chemical/people/faculty/mccarthy_joseph.html
17:28:43cmarquibot: mccarthy?
17:28:49cmarqu:)
17:29:06no idea, pb_
17:29:06pb_ibot, mccarthy feed?
17:29:10pb_oh well.
17:29:17pb_: pas de quoi
17:29:17pb_ibot: thanks anyway
17:29:25mccarthydammit ibot
17:29:34mccarthyI gotta go you dumb yit
17:29:51OK, mccarthy.
17:29:51mccarthyibot mccarthy feed is http://granular.che.pitt.edu/~mccarthy/feed
17:30:00it has been said that mccarthy feed is http://granular.che.pitt.edu/~mccarthy/feed
17:30:00mccarthyibot: mccarthy feed?
17:30:58mccarthyoh...
17:31:09mccarthyin order for this stuff to work you need two other things
17:31:34mccarthyyou need bell.png (I will put it in the feed and it will be in the *next* gpe-icons)
17:31:46mccarthyand we need to change permissions on the /dev/rtc
17:31:56mccarthypb_: does this go in startup-scripts?
17:32:09mccarthyI think thats all (and it seems to work ok)
17:32:20mccarthyDO NOT EXPECT RECURRING ALARMS!! (not yet)
17:32:20cmarqugpe-session-scripts I think
17:32:25mccarthyonly single occurence alarms
17:32:37mccarthyNOW I am leaving
17:32:47cmarqumccarthy: Bye
17:33:00mccarthybye bye ... Cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame, wake up the echos....
17:33:25PaxAnimawonder if ibot have any info on me (it shouldn't)
17:33:28paxanima: bugger all, i dunno
17:33:28PaxAnimaibot: paxanima?
17:35:06cmarquBTW, do people think the grey right-aligned labels in http://handhelds.org/scap/port.9247.png look nice?
17:35:52cmarquI wonder if I should make gpe-conf look like that, in cplaces
17:36:12OK, PaxAnima.
17:36:12PaxAnimaibot: PaxAnima is coding weird stuff (http://www.handhelds.org/~paxanima) and also can be used as santa replacement (http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~petterk/nisse/kort.png)
17:36:17PaxAnima: no worries
17:36:17PaxAnimaibot: thanks
17:36:57cmarquLOLs at santa
17:38:15cmarquwonders what the "Colin" link is
17:38:29cmarquAh. The droid
17:38:37PaxAnimayup
17:39:49cmarquEeek: http://www.idi.ntnu.no/~petterk/kamera/meg.jpg
17:39:53cmarqu:)
17:40:04PaxAnimascared? ;)
17:40:10cmarquYou bet
17:41:20paxanima: bugger all, i dunno
17:41:20PaxAnimaibot: rtcd?
17:41:51cmarqudc_: Hey, wake up!
17:42:55dc_hu??
17:43:26cmarqudc_: 20:41 < cmarqu> BTW, do people think the grey right-aligned labels in http://handhelds.org/scap/port.9247.png look nice?
17:47:15pb_cmarqu: yeah, I like them.
17:48:03cmarquGood. I think I might change some other places to look like that too.
17:48:10pb_Cool.
17:48:22cmarquThey are like in MacOS X in some places.
17:48:46pb_Mmm, right.  I've never really used OS X.
17:49:07cmarquI just saw some screenshots of Jaguar the other day, and I liked that idea.
17:49:46cmarquI also never really used a Mac.
17:50:03dc_cmarqu: what are the labels like?
17:50:15dc_shaded?
17:50:34cmarqudc_: No. Just right-aligned and grey
17:50:53cmarquSo two columns have a common middle line
17:50:59cmarqu    foo bar
17:51:06cmarqu    bar baz
17:51:12cmarqu   quux quuux
17:51:16cmarquLike that.
17:51:23dc_oh yeah
17:51:25dc_defently!
17:51:52pb_PaxAnima: what is your theory for dealing with alarms that go off when you are not logged in?
17:54:13PaxAnimahmm...
17:55:01PaxAnimawhat happens when you launch an X app and noone is logged on?
17:56:42pb_PaxAnima: it will pop up on the login screen.
17:56:56pb_PaxAnima: but you may not be able to launch it at all unless you have the right auth cookie.
17:58:12PaxAnimahmm...
17:58:42dc_DragonEagle: !!!
17:58:51DragonEagleany complaints if I reimplement the appmgr in python
17:58:52DragonEaglehey dc
17:58:55PaxAnimapb_: xhost +localhost?
17:58:59DragonEagledodged the impending bullets
17:59:13dc_fires some more
17:59:13pb_PaxAnima: yeah, maybe, but I'd rather not.
17:59:19dc_DragonEagle: why?
17:59:25DragonEaglespace,space, space
17:59:32dc_bahhh!
17:59:43DragonEaglea script will always compress smaller than a binary
17:59:52pb_DragonEagle: but python is the greatest waste of space since... I dunno, some large waste of space.
18:00:09DragonEagleI must have some form of a workable scripting language
18:01:25DragonEaglepb_: and that's just not true, ever look at java :)
18:02:14pb_Ah yes, java would have been the "large waste of space" I was thinking of.
18:02:59dc_hehe
18:03:17morayDragonEagle: with python the individual programs may be smaller, but only because the actual code for every possible program is contained in python/the libraries
18:03:19BBroxthinks all GPE should be implemented in Forth
18:03:59DragonEaglethe point is I need some form of oo scripting language with gui capabilities
18:04:01morayBBrox: surely GPE for lisp?
18:04:09pb_moray: lisp is so passe.
18:04:21morayDragonEagle: you might need to specify your requirements more? why do you need this?
18:04:36BBroxmoray: Forth with in-line ASM rules :-)
18:04:38DragonEaglemoray: because I use my ipaq for remote development
18:04:39moraypb_: surely it's gone far enough for a resurgence now? ;)
18:05:33morayDragonEagle: that sounds like a request for a development environment on the ipaq, which doesn't affect what GPE's written in, surely?
18:05:45pb_DragonEagle: well, nothing stops you installing python on your own machine.
18:06:21DragonEaglepb_: size, I just wanted to make sure that if I did that reimplementation, I wouldn't be stepping on any toes
18:06:46morayDragonEagle: I'm still not quite sure what you're trying to gain?
18:06:47pb_DragonEagle: no, this is free software, you can reimplement whatever you like.
18:07:35morayDragonEagle: if you have enough space you can install as many development tools as you want; if you have space for Glade, Python, etc., I don't see how you won't have enough space for the C gpe-appmgr?
18:07:53mallumdc_: hey
18:08:03dc_mallum: :)
18:08:06dc_mallum: hey!
18:08:10DragonEaglemoray: to explain, write a simple hello_world prog in c, strip it and gzip it, then do the same thing with a bash script and compare sizes
18:08:43BBroxDragonEagle: how many hello_world do you need to get to the size of bash ?
18:09:00mallumDragonEagle: and compare startup times, mem usages etc
18:09:01dc_heh
18:09:12DragonEagleBBrox: my point is that a script file will compress much smaller than a binary file
18:09:23dc_DragonEagle: on the iPAQ, python is really to slow....
18:09:28dc_in my opinion
18:09:35BBroxDragonEagle: yeah, but a script files are dependenceis that are a lot bigger than a binary file
18:09:37dc_after all that work on storm
18:09:44DragonEagleconceeds
18:09:46mallumDragonEagle: python is not a language at all built for speed
18:09:51DragonEaglekisses reptile byebye
18:09:52BBroxDragonEagle: so I agree that your approach works... With a LOT of applications
18:10:12mallumDragonEagle: it has been reported to be _thousands_ of times slower than C in some circumstances
18:14:19DragonEagleso if I want a gui scripting language, I would be better off using say tk :)
18:15:02cmarquHow about scripted C?
18:15:10cmarquOkay, it's not OO...
18:15:24DragonEagle C Styled Script?
18:15:25cmarquAnd I don't know if you can build GUIs
18:16:03cmarquWell, raster wanted to use a scripted C as a language for E
18:16:12cmarquat one point at least
18:16:18DragonEagleI'm taking a look at elastiC
18:17:04mallumused to have a c interpreter for his ST cos he couldn't afford a compiler ...
18:17:21pb_ha.
18:17:35cmarqu21:23 < NonToxic> Mmm.
18:17:35cmarqu21:23 < NonToxic> I'm starting to like GPE more now.
18:17:36cmarqu21:23 < NonToxic> I just loaded real fonts on it
18:17:36cmarqu21:23 < NonToxic> and NMF
18:17:36cmarqu21:23 < NonToxic> and I love how you can collapse NMF
18:17:39cmarquWhee!
18:18:02BBroxNMF ?
18:18:10cmarquAudio player
18:18:49cmarquThis collapsing thing is a matchbox thing though, with the right theme
18:21:17gribDragonEagle: I use guile and guile-gtk on the ipaq
18:21:26gribit's a nice interpreted language.
18:23:21pb_mallum_movie: what ya watching?
18:25:35DragonEaglegrib: is there a url for guile?
18:26:25gribhttp://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
18:26:41DragonEaglesmacks himself
18:26:44DragonEagleshould've known :)
18:26:45grib:0
18:27:19DragonEaglegrib: is there an ipkg or do I need to build it?
18:27:35gribyou can install the debian-arm package, that's what I did
18:27:42DragonEagleah, thx
18:43:52NonToxicis away: bb tomorrow
18:59:49DragonEagleok, gpe is installed, now just can't access my micordrive :)
19:02:00DragonEaglestrike that :)
19:02:22mutexheh
19:04:19cmarquPaxAnima: Are you there?
19:06:14DragonEagleodd
19:06:21DragonEaglemount: Mounting /dev/hda1 on /mnt/hda failed: Invalid argument
19:06:52DragonEagleI can mkfs.ext2, but I can't mount it
19:07:40cmarquAnd you did mkfs on /dev/hda1, not /dev/hda?
19:07:57DragonEaglecmarqu: ofcourse. /dev/hda2 is a swap part
19:08:04DragonEaglewhich btw works
19:08:22cmarquHmm.
19:08:41pb_you do have the ext2 modules loaded, right?
19:08:47DragonEagleI'm gonna reboot my ipaq and try to repart it
19:08:59DragonEaglepb_: yep
19:11:04PaxAnimacmarqu: yes
19:11:38cmarquPaxAnima: A GTK question...
19:12:20PaxAnimaI'm really not a GTK expert, but I can pretend to be one
19:12:28cmarquI have a table with 2 columns.  The left column has GtkLabels. Somehow, gtk_label_set_justify on those labels doesn't seem to have an effect
19:13:00PaxAnimagtk_misc_set_aligment()
19:13:20PaxAnimaHave a nice day!
19:13:23cmarquYeah, but why?
19:13:24PaxAnimahmm.. wrong paste
19:13:30PaxAnimagtk_misc_set_alignment( GTK_MISC( people_label ), 1.0f, 0.0f);
19:13:46PaxAnimaset alignment is for a multiline label
19:13:58cmarquAaaaah.
19:14:18PaxAnimayou need both, if the label might span several lines
19:14:22cmarquhttp://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/gtk/gtklabel.html#GTK-LABEL-SET-JUSTIFY doesn't talk about this.
19:14:31PaxAnimaI know.. but the GTK FAQ does..
19:14:50cmarquhides
19:15:48PaxAnimapasting from the FAQ would be evil? ;)
19:16:19cmarquNo no :)
19:17:18cmarquOkay, now... I set the table attach option to GTK_SHRINK, and suddenly neither justify nor alignment make a difference, the labe is centered
19:17:28PaxAnimayou need fill
19:17:29PaxAnimaGTK_FILL
19:18:08cmarquOh. SHRINK and FILL together work... yay.
19:18:14cmarquThanks very much.
19:18:18PaxAnimano problem
19:18:25cmarquKinda awkward combination :)
19:19:57PaxAnimasounds like a contradiction
19:20:47cmarquYet it works. Cool.
19:21:56PaxAnimaGTK_FILL makes the widget use the allocated space and GTK_SHRINK will make the widget shrink when needed (or something like that)
19:22:46cmarquIt's a science on its own :)
19:23:32cmarqunow goes on to explore padding and row/col spacing et al.
19:23:43PaxAnimayes... didn't quite figure out the fill/expand/shrink thing at first (all tough I have GTK+ book in my bookshelf)
19:24:10cmarquhas the Harlow book
19:24:34PaxAnimatoo
19:24:34cmarquWhere is it actually...
19:43:51cmarquPaxAnima: One more: my scrolledwindow needs to get some padding... do I need to wrap it in an alignment or something?
19:46:47BBroxPaxAnima: padding where ?
19:47:11cmarquBBrox: around the scrolledwindow
19:47:15cmarquNot inside
19:47:37BBroxcmarqu: which widget is embedding your scrolledwindow ?
19:48:20gribcmarqu: you almost never need to use alignments
19:48:27cmarquBBrox: A table
19:48:40BBroxcmarqu: errrrm.. Why do you use tables :-) ?
19:48:41cmarqugrib: I guess it's just clever casting then?
19:48:55cmarquBBrox: aren't they nice?
19:49:23BBroxcmarqu: well, I almost never use them :-)
19:49:37gribcmarqu: tables are too fancy for their own good... most gtk people use hboxes and vboxes.  you can get the same  table effect but with better control.
19:49:38cmarquAh, I see that gtk_table_attach  has padding options
19:49:56BBroxcmarqu: I was about to tell you that :-)
19:50:10cmarquI had soem problems with boxes initially, so I switched to a table
19:50:11BBrox(was looking at the GTK API reference guide to check if my memory was right :-) )
19:50:49gribcmarqu: even if you aren't using glade for your app, you might try drawing the box structure out with it to test how the various padding and filling options work in practice
19:51:26gribesp on the ipaq it's important for apps not to choke when their size gets forced by the wm :)
19:51:34cmarquHmm. padding values are integers... too bad when I want to have 5 pixels spacing everywhere
19:52:18cmarqugrib: I somehow couldn't make the boxes do one thing... I guess I just didn't know how.
19:52:30BBroxcmarqu: so what has integers to do with that ?
19:53:27cmarquBBrox: well, if GTK was really clever, I could say that I want 2.5 pixels around each widget, and it would know that these add up to 5 pixesl when they are next to each other
19:54:11BBroxcmarqu: why not do 3 and 2 then :-)
19:54:33BBrox3 on 'odd' columns and 2 on 'even' columns ?
19:54:46cmarquI guess I really want row spacing, whihc exists for tables.
19:55:40cmarquActually, I want vector based windowing systems, not pixel based :)
19:55:56cmarqulooks around to see if jg is listening
19:56:17gribcmarqu: there's also a spacing param for h/vboxes
19:56:28gribin addition to the padding you can put around an item
19:56:31gribor the whole box
19:56:38cmarquGood.
19:57:17DragonEaglewhoohoo microdrive is working and and it's eating intimate :)
19:57:50cmarquI now struggle with the fact that the 5 pixels padding are 5 pixels when not expanded/filled. The padding paramter in the table does not grow as the label padding does... :/
20:00:07gribah, rubber space.  have fun :)  the only thing you can't do, and don't try if you want to stay sane, is control how rubber space is allocated between multiple things in a pack that are all expand/fill.  in general, you will be happiest if you have exactly 1 thing expand/fill in a pack.
20:01:00cmarqugrib: Oh. Good to know. Is that any different in GTK2?
20:04:50gribdunno, haven't done any gtk2
20:15:00pb_I don't think gtk2 changes that area of things.
20:15:56gribpb_: it would be hard to imagine how it would :)  you would be getting into some very nasty things like "space-grabbiness" numbers etc. :)
20:16:12pb_yeah, quite.
20:16:20cmarquWell, at least I figured out a nice way for my app
20:16:57cmarquWell, Fresco needs to do this I guess
20:17:05cmarquthe space-grabbiness thing
20:22:46mutexa semi-gpe question... i'm build a cross compiler using the script, and it says i need linuxthreads, do the linuxthreads source go in the glibc sources directory ?
20:22:56mutex*the script provided on handhelds.org
20:24:46mutexlets just try it and see what happens
20:58:38mallum_moviegrib: hi, these probelms with xkbd - you running NMF or gpe-cacl ?
21:01:03gribmallum_movie: what are those?  
21:01:25mallum_moviegrib: apps that live in the toolbat, like xkbd
21:01:36mallum_movietoolbar
21:02:31gribhm, don't think so... what's NMF?  the only things in my toolbar are xstroke, xkbd, the volume control, cpu meter.
21:02:39griband the menu
21:04:07mallum_moviehmm, what toolkit your app use ?
21:04:27gribgtk
21:04:33mallum_movie1.2?
21:04:35gribyup
21:04:59mallum_moviewierd, you have xtroke 'activated'?
21:05:30gribi've tried both .. it's only a "sometimes" thing either way
21:05:54gribi.e. sometimes xkbd works fine, sometimes it don't.  even within the same invocation of the app.
21:09:29mallum_moviegrib: your not calling any funky focus stuff in your app ?
21:09:51mallum_moviegrib: xkbd just sends event to the current window that has keyboard focus
21:14:12gribmallum_movie: nope, not doing anything fancy.  
21:16:02mallum_moviegrib: ewe ... is your app in unstable or anything ?
21:19:17gribno, its for a client.
21:20:33mallum_moviegrib: hmm, I've never heard of that problem before
21:20:42mallum_moviegrib: your running matchbox right ?
21:20:51gribright, matchbox
21:21:27gribo well, thanks for spending a few cycles on it :)
21:22:21mallum_moviegrib: if you can replicate it in a simple app, and get that too me I would probably be able to figure it out
22:13:54cmarqumallum: Don't you just *feel* the urge to write a better jabber client than the OPIE guys?
22:14:43mallumcmarqu: nope
22:14:49cmarquHell!
22:14:56cmarquHe doesn't.
22:15:26mallumI wrote a python one once
22:15:33cmarquI know.
22:15:53mallumAFAIK there are no c libs for the protocol, so its a lot of numbing work ( for me )
22:16:58cmarquUh, relly, no C lib? Hmm.
22:17:18mallumwell expat and the server code
22:17:27mallummost clients are C++
22:17:41cmarquYeah...
22:18:03cmarquI just discovered gabber is written with Glade
22:21:53cmarquOh. The OPIE guys have strange, but useful scrollbars. The have one arrow twice, on either side of the scrollbar: http://handhelds.org/scap/port.7531.png
22:21:54mallumyeah but its all C++ too
22:22:02cmarquYup.
22:23:29cmarquArgh. gpe-conf's makefile is very very strange.
22:26:27mutexisn't libgpe* C only ?
22:26:50cmarquIt is.
22:27:08cmarquAll of GPE even.
22:27:13mutexthat's what i thought
22:27:27mutexgtk -> C so i infer gpe -> C
22:27:29mutex;-)
22:27:47mutexi wish this cross compiler wasn't being so silly
22:28:26cmarqugazer has some fresh crosscompiler setup I think, from the dragonfeed IITD
22:28:29cmarquIIRC
22:29:20mutexyou mean pre-compiled
22:29:21mutex?
22:29:51cmarquSome crosscompiler environment, but I don't know any details
22:29:59gazer was last seen on #gpe 2 days, 2 hours, 11 minutes and 30 seconds ago, saying: grr, my devel machine just croaked. [Wed Sep  4 21:18:29 2002]
22:29:59cmarquibot: seen gazer?
22:30:16mutexhmm well i have a non-typical setup.. so i think i'll just have to deal ;-)
22:30:21mutexcross-compile ppc/arm
22:30:32cmarquAh.
23:11:29seth_looks in.
23:11:48gazerhmm, wonder why my nick was changed.
23:12:22gazerwhoever was asking, I had a happy cross compilation setup, and then my devel box croaked.
23:12:49gazerI have a new devel box up now, and should have a new cross compilation setup going soon.
23:12:57gazerand I'll even document it this time.
23:12:58gazer:)
23:14:01mutexheh
23:14:03mutexthat was me
23:14:28mutexmine works... ok until it tries to build linuxthreads, then it complains about asm includes... i haven't looked at it in detail yet
23:16:02cmarqugazer: Cool. How much work would it be to make a single app use it?
23:16:06gazerI was actually using a precompiled one instead of building from scratch.
23:16:09cmarquhas never done any crosscompiling...
23:16:37mutexi figured i'd build from scratch... for giggles
23:16:49gazerI couldn't get gcc to build on my laptop (tibook running OSX.2), so I'm doing devel on my linux desktop.
23:17:43gazerooh.  the developers weekend looks cool.
23:17:57mutexwhich ?
23:18:12cmarqumutex: http://handhelds.org/z/wiki/CRLDevelopersWeekend
23:18:34gazermoved back to MA just in time. :)
23:19:19mutexhrm
23:20:01gazercmarqu: I think, for now, I'm going to write a Makefile preprocessor to hand back a Makefile that will cross compile in your setup.
23:20:19gazerthis would avoid auto* hell, which is a requirement for me. :)
23:20:20cmarquNice.
23:20:47cmarquUnfortunately, we have many different Makefile "strategies"
23:21:02gazeryeah, I saw a few.
23:21:43gazerthe ones I've looked at have enough similarities to make this doable, I think.
23:21:47cmarquOn and off, I consider dropping autotools in gpe-ownerinfo. I'm just to lazy to read up on it.
23:22:14gazeryeah, autotools are powerful, but overkill.  swatting a fly with a sledgehammer and all that.
23:23:12mutexhmm anybody got some links on auto* i need to read up...
23:23:23gazeroff of gnu.org someplace.
23:23:25mutexaside from the gnu manuals i mean
23:23:28mutexright right
23:23:39gazerthere is a GPLd book out there that is decent.
23:25:02mutexhmmm they have redone the website
23:25:05mutexlooks nice
23:25:22gazerfunny how automake's motto is "Avoid Makefile hell"
23:25:24gazer:)
23:25:50mutexi gotta setup some cross compiling/auto stuff for work... so i figure playing with it this weekend will help..
23:25:59mutexplus i want to play with gpe... two birds.. one stone, yeah
23:26:06gazercool.
23:28:20cmarquapt-get install autobook
23:31:24mutexneato

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