| 04:25:31 | colin_werk | Morning. |
| 07:32:36 | mallum | hey |
| 07:35:52 | colin_werk | Morning |
| 07:40:40 | pb | hey |
| 07:42:03 | colin_werk | pb: Meeting over? |
| 07:42:10 | mallum | pb: do you know if anyone else has tried to build xfree4.2 debs on arm ? I checked on brandens site and there still seems not to be any there ... but all? other arches seem to be covered |
| 07:46:10 | | gadgets are at http://www.the-gadgeteer.com, http://www.pdastreet.com, http://www.pdabuzz.com |
| 07:46:10 | colin_werk | ibot: gadgets? |
| 07:47:14 | mallum | colin_werk: heh |
| 07:47:19 | | mallum: wish i knew |
| 07:47:19 | mallum | ibot: marital aids ? |
| 07:49:40 | pb | colin_werk: Yeah, just finished. |
| 07:49:52 | pb | mallum: not that I know of, you want me to have a go? |
| 07:50:22 | mallum | pb: yeah, if you have the spare cpu to do it |
| 07:50:44 | pb | sure, I can use one of the machines at Carleton |
| 07:51:08 | mallum | pb: I can only compile it when sids not around, cos the drive starts making so much noise |
| 07:51:35 | mallum | pb: which sounds like a very weak excuse |
| 07:53:57 | pb | good grief, sounds like you need a new hard disk. |
| 07:54:12 | mallum | pb: but you havn't heard this drive when X compiles, its like a small motorbike in the room |
| 07:55:01 | pb | wow |
| 07:55:27 | mallum | pb: The drive is approx 3-4 years old ... so I think a replacement is in order |
| 07:55:39 | pb | sounds that way, I think most of the new drives are virtually silent. |
| 07:55:52 | mallum | pb: It never amde much noise before I compiled X though ... |
| 07:56:46 | pb | hmph, all the Carleton machines are unreachable, I'll have to use my CATS instead. |
| 08:02:42 | pb | oh dear, I have a download ETA for xfree86 source of 13 hours! |
| 08:08:27 | mallum | pb: ouch ! |
| 08:10:56 | pb | obviously my connection to klecker is not the best. |
| 08:36:33 | mallum | pb: hmm, I just got a mail from mibus re having a window hint to get rid of the close button |
| 08:36:45 | mallum | pb: for app-mgr |
| 08:37:02 | mallum | pb: I think A better way would be to make gpe-appmgr a desktop window |
| 08:37:37 | mallum | pb: or maybe not show the title at all via the mwm hints I added |
| 08:41:29 | pb | mallum: right, yeah. |
| 08:41:53 | pb | mallum: another compromise I discussed with mibus was to have the close icon send the window to the back of the stack, is there any easy way for an app to do that? |
| 08:42:23 | mallum | pb: the app can catch the close, and just lower itselfs |
| 08:42:33 | mallum | pb: or iconize its self |
| 08:47:00 | pb | mallum: ideally we want to figure out why appmgr takes so darn long to start up and fix it, that way it wouldn't be so important that it never gets quit. |
| 08:47:10 | pb | mallum: okay, what call does it need to make to lower itself? |
| 08:47:14 | pb | mallum: what does matchbox do with iconized windows exactly? |
| 08:47:59 | mallum | pb: should just lower em to the bottom of the stack and raise the one behind |
| 08:48:32 | mallum | pb: ah iconized ... they basically get hidden away until something uniconizes them |
| 08:48:52 | mallum | pb: you should just need to call XLowerWindow - there should be a GDK equiv |
| 08:56:44 | pb | mallum: okay cool |
| 09:08:18 | mallum | pb: please do tell me if it works for you |
| 09:08:32 | mallum | pb: I know it used too, but I havn't tested it in a while |
| 09:17:51 | mallum | hey Leeds |
| 09:18:06 | Leeds | hey mallum |
| 09:18:25 | Leeds | moray persuaded me I should be looking at gpe :-) |
| 09:18:51 | mallum | Leeds: good |
| 09:19:03 | mallum | Leeds: helping out is even better ;) |
| 09:19:17 | Leeds | that's stage two... |
| 09:24:43 | mallum | coolio dudeo |
| 09:25:40 | Leeds | but first! I'm going in the shower... |
| 09:26:26 | mallum | is so glad the shots on matchbox are now not all of the same grey theme :)) |
| 09:27:34 | mallum | shots on scap of matchbix |
| 09:30:37 | colin_werk | mallum: Is the white speaker icon in http://handhelds.org/scap/port.28820.png meant to be like that? I have seen that one time too |
| 09:33:25 | mallum | colin_werk: looks like its missed an expose event |
| 09:33:34 | mallum | colin_werk: is that your shot ? |
| 09:36:00 | colin_werk | mallum: No. I had it with the mouse icon immediately after logging in one tim. Since then, I might have upgraded matchbox. I think I saw it with the earliest 0.3. |
| 09:38:24 | mallum | colin_werk: I have seen it hapopen a few times |
| 09:38:44 | mallum | colin_werk: I think minimizing and showing the dock will bring it back |
| 09:39:15 | mallum | colin_werk: I'll look into why it happens ... If you can figure out a way of reproducing it ( I havn't yet ) it would hopefully be easy to fix |
| 09:39:29 | mallum | colin_werk: but if it turns out to be completely random, could be quite hard |
| 09:47:50 | colin_werk | For me, it fixed itself when I moved the pen over the icon IIRC. Will keep a look at it. |
| 09:52:59 | pb | I think that shot was one from mibus, might be worth asking him if it happens a lot. |
| 09:53:25 | mallum | pb: I think its something to do with the shape extension |
| 09:57:27 | pb | mallum: right, could well be. |
| 09:58:28 | colin_werk | Leeds: maybe you could make your vorbis player a gpe-audio or a plugin for gpe-media? |
| 10:04:36 | Leeds | colin_wek: at the moment, it's pretty much the famplayer backend, with my own interface and playlist handling on top of it... |
| 10:05:01 | pb | aha, sounds rather similar to gpe-media :-} |
| 10:05:10 | Leeds | yeah :-) |
| 10:05:21 | pb | Leeds: what does your interface look like, do you have any screenshots? |
| 10:05:32 | Leeds | hang on... |
| 10:06:46 | Leeds | hmmm.... no xwd... |
| 10:08:12 | Leeds | heh - I can do it on the desktop... hang on |
| 10:10:44 | Leeds | http://handhelds.org/scap/toipaq.cgi?fn=port.18028.png |
| 10:11:35 | Leeds | it looks better on the iPAQ than on the desktop - fonts are smaller and so on |
| 10:12:15 | pb | ah right |
| 10:12:41 | pb | gpe-media's main UI is implemented as a toolbar window, it looks rather like the GNOME 2 cd player. |
| 10:13:01 | pb | I'm not sure what the playlist editor looks like, we would have to find out from DC. |
| 10:13:42 | mallum | pb: does argc strip " for something like echo "hello world" ? |
| 10:13:52 | Leeds | dunno what the gnome 2 CD player looks like... I don't do GNOME... |
| 10:14:34 | pb | mallum: the shell probably does, it will pass "hello world" as a single argv[] entry without the quotes. |
| 10:15:09 | pb | mallum: I _think_ the execs() code I sent you ought to behave the same way, though it may have some lurking bugs still. |
| 10:15:35 | mallum | pb: doh, quotes are getting escaped from the ~/.mbdock |
| 10:16:00 | pb | ah |
| 10:16:28 | mallum | pb: I guess I can check for spaces in a argc entry and add "'s , though I guess theres no way of knowing if single or double were originally used :( |
| 10:17:11 | mallum | pb: its only really monolaunch thats causing the problem ... |
| 10:17:55 | pb | mallum: don't think I really understand the problem, can you expand on it? |
| 10:18:40 | mallum | pb: when tray.c is setting the WM_COMMAND property, its stripping slashes from things like; |
| 10:19:17 | mallum | pb: monolaunch -m whatever.xpm "ps wax | head" |
| 10:19:36 | Leeds | \"ps wax | head\" any good? |
| 10:20:12 | mallum | Leeds: yeah that may work ... need to think |
| 10:20:20 | pb | mallum: stripping quotes, you mean? |
| 10:21:06 | mallum | pb: yeah , it'll end up getting saved as monolaunch -m whatever.xpm ps wax | head in ~/.mbdock |
| 10:21:14 | pb | mallum: hmm, right |
| 10:21:40 | pb | mallum: I think you need to do a bit of processing on argv, basically wrap every item in "" and slash-escape any quotes that are there already. |
| 10:21:56 | pb | mallum: don't know who should be responsible for that though, tray.c or the dock itself. |
| 10:22:13 | mallum | pb: tray.c I guess when it sets the command string |
| 10:23:00 | pb | mallum: yeah, I guess it needs to happen whereever it is that the command is coalesced back from an argv[] vector into a single string. |
| 10:23:23 | mallum | pb: its only really a problem with monlaunch - I guess I can fix that up to set its own WM_COMMAND |
| 10:23:49 | pb | mallum: looks to me like it should be done in client.c::client_get_command_str |
| 10:24:27 | mallum | pb: yeah but it should already have the quotes by the time it gets there |
| 10:25:08 | pb | mallum: no, I don't agree, I think it's reasonable for the individual argv[] members to have unprotected spaces in at that point. |
| 10:25:27 | pb | mallum: it's only when you concatenate them together and use spaces as the delimeter that you have a problem. |
| 10:30:08 | pb | fetching lunch, back in 10 |
| 10:40:36 | mallum | pb_: hey |
| 10:40:42 | pb_ | hey |
| 10:41:01 | Leeds | hmmm... lunch... |
| 10:41:10 | mallum | pb_: I think its fine to expect the client to set its command property to the actually command that started it |
| 10:41:27 | pb_ | mallum: yes, but the command is an argv[] list of strings, not a single string. |
| 10:41:32 | mallum | pb_: I think you misunderstood me |
| 10:41:42 | pb_ | mallum: ah |
| 10:42:01 | pb_ | mallum: care to explain again in small words? :-) |
| 10:42:07 | mallum | pb_: yes but the client is more likely to be able to pass its args back into the actual command string that what the dock is able to |
| 10:43:15 | pb_ | mallum: don't agree. The client knows what the argv[] vector was that it received, and this is what the dock ultimately needs to pass to execve() in orer to restart the application. If the dock wants to represent that internally as a single string, it ought to be responsible for doing any necessary escaping. |
| 10:44:02 | pb_ | mallum: if the clients add "" and escapes, a manager that stores the command in vector form would need to strip all that stuff off again before using it. |
| 10:44:31 | pb_ | mallum: and I tend to think that if the founding fathers had intended clients to do the escaping, they would have made XSetCommand() handle it internally. |
| 10:45:33 | mallum | pb_: yes your right Id assumed WM_COMMAND was a string |
| 10:46:14 | pb_ | mallum: cool |
| 10:47:19 | mallum | pb_: hmm, maybe I just have change the format of ~/.mbdock ( which is gonna happen anyway when you can freely move the dock apps about ) |
| 10:48:03 | mallum | pb_: it will be less human readable, but then it should really be anyway |
| 10:48:14 | mallum | pb_: does that make sense to you ? |
| 10:48:29 | pb_ | mallum: yep, that would work. |
| 10:49:09 | mallum | pb_: of course then your patch would not be needed :( ? |
| 10:49:24 | mallum | pb_: though I could use it in mmenu instead ? |
| 10:50:01 | pb_ | True. Well, I'm not proud, if the patch isn't needed then so be it. ;-) |
| 10:50:27 | pb_ | yeah, mmenu might still need something of the kind. |
| 10:52:42 | mallum | Im just realising I've previously gone the wrong way about things with the ~/.mbdock file makeing it easily editable :( |
| 10:53:40 | pb_ | ibot, message for moray: tasks/gpe checked in now, sorry about that. |
| 10:54:29 | pb_ | mallum: hmm, well, having it easily editable can be a bonus I guess. |
| 10:55:41 | mallum | pb_: yeah, Its not critical ... but I think I may leave a fix of for a little bit till I have to change the .mbdock file format anyway ( to include position infomation ) |
| 10:56:27 | mallum | pb_: If I change it now its just going to confuse people :( and the bug only really effects exotic monolunch scripts |
| 10:57:05 | pb_ | mallum: true |
| 10:57:29 | pb_ | mallum: well, I think that making client_get_command_str do quoting would probably fix the bug without breaking compatibility. |
| 10:59:00 | mallum | pb_: by just checking for spaces ? |
| 10:59:12 | mallum | pb_: and assuming single quotes ? |
| 11:01:16 | pb_ | mallum: lemme write some code to show you what I mean |
| 11:01:29 | mallum | pb_: ok |
| 11:02:20 | pb_ | mallum: like this: |
| 11:02:23 | pb_ | Bool |
| 11:02:23 | pb_ | client_get_command_str(Dock *d, Client *c, char *cmd) |
| 11:02:24 | pb_ | { |
| 11:02:24 | pb_ | int i; |
| 11:02:24 | pb_ | if (!c->argc) return False; |
| 11:02:24 | pb_ | strcat(cmd, c->argv[0]); |
| 11:02:28 | pb_ | for(i=1;i<c->argc;i++) |
| 11:02:30 | pb_ | { |
| 11:02:32 | pb_ | char *p = c->argv[i]; |
| 11:02:34 | pb_ | *cmd++ = '\"'; |
| 11:02:36 | pb_ | while (*p) |
| 11:02:38 | pb_ | { |
| 11:02:41 | pb_ | if (*p == '\"') |
| 11:02:42 | pb_ | *p = '\\'; |
| 11:02:44 | pb_ | *cmd++ = *p++; |
| 11:02:46 | pb_ | } |
| 11:02:48 | pb_ | *cmd++ = '\"'; |
| 11:02:50 | pb_ | } |
| 11:02:52 | pb_ | return True; |
| 11:02:54 | pb_ | } |
| 11:02:58 | pb_ | (apologies for messed up indent in the middle there) |
| 11:03:13 | pb_ | oh, er, it probably needs *cmd++ = ' '; at the top of the loop too. |
| 11:04:49 | mallum | pb_: you are quoteing every param ? |
| 11:04:53 | pb_ | mallum: right |
| 11:05:04 | pb_ | mallum: extra quotes are harmless, the shell will just strip them off again at exec time. |
| 11:05:11 | mallum | pb_: yes sure |
| 11:05:32 | pb_ | mallum: if you wanted to be more sophisticated, you could use strchr() to look for spaces and only quote strings that really needed it. |
| 11:05:42 | mallum | pb_: yep |
| 11:05:57 | mallum | pb_: would we not be safer using single quotes though ? |
| 11:06:10 | pb_ | mallum: don't think it makes any difference. |
| 11:06:17 | mallum | pb_: as we could assume any shell interperlation had taken place |
| 11:06:32 | mallum | pb_: yeah indeed |
| 11:07:00 | pb_ | mallum: yeah true, if you were going to feed the command to a real shell rather than execsp(), probably better to use single quotes in case the command happens to contain dollar signs or something. |
| 11:07:32 | mallum | 1 sec ... brb |
| 11:19:18 | mallum | ok I added that |
| 11:19:48 | mallum | I need to break up dock.c soon, as thats beginning to sprawl |
| 11:23:31 | pb_ | ok, cool. |
| 11:24:03 | pb_ | btw, there was a deliberate bug in the code I posted above, the like that reads *p = '\\'; should be *cmd++ = '\\'; |
| 11:25:02 | mallum | pb_: yeah I got that |
| 11:25:39 | mallum | pb_: though I must admit I did look at it for a second, trying to figure out what it was doing ! |
| 11:26:13 | pb_ | heh |
| 11:26:29 | mallum | pb_: I cant really test stuff here, sort of blows my cover ;) |
| 11:26:43 | pb_ | sniggers |
| 11:26:52 | mallum | pb_: I'll make a commit if you want to try |
| 11:27:16 | pb_ | I'm not really set up to try it either at the moment, may as well leave it for now. |
| 11:27:27 | mallum | pb_: dont worry if you cant though ... I can test when I get in |
| 11:27:37 | pb_ | OK. |
| 11:28:12 | mallum | thank god for workspace switching keyboard shortcuts |
| 11:28:42 | pb_ | ha, using the old "switch to a spreadsheet when the boss walks in" routine? |
| 11:28:57 | pb_ | except presumably in your case, your boss wants to see a browser with loads of p0rn and PHP. |
| 11:29:29 | mallum | heh |
| 11:29:55 | spung | porn? |
| 11:30:03 | spung | mallum: so you're a porn webmaster now? =) |
| 11:30:11 | mallum | oh god .... |
| 11:30:21 | mallum | pb_: look what you've started |
| 11:30:28 | Leeds | my manager has sent me onto IRC to get iPAQ help before... |
| 11:30:33 | spung | mallum: i had a 19 in physics whooo hooo! |
| 11:30:43 | pb_ | mallum: whoops |
| 11:31:14 | spung | pb_: ahh.. don't be so mean! |
| 11:31:27 | mallum | spung: Im just possibily doing some authentication stuff for a client of the co I contracted too, who apparent serves up adult orientated content |
| 11:31:40 | mallum | spung: 19 out of a 100 ? |
| 11:31:51 | mallum | spung: you failed then ? |
| 11:31:52 | spung | mallum: nahh.. out of 20 |
| 11:32:13 | Leeds | spung: so what did you get wrong? |
| 11:33:08 | spung | Leeds: i really don't know how to explain.. i wouldn't know the 'technical' terms in english |
| 11:33:33 | spung | Leeds: but it had something with variance of some set of experimental results... |
| 11:33:41 | spung | Leeds: maths stuff |
| 11:34:05 | mallum | spung: physics is maths |
| 11:34:10 | mallum | spung: just craply applied |
| 11:34:16 | Leeds | ugh. /me stopped studying physics 8 years ago |
| 11:34:20 | spung | mallum: yeah, but this was pure maths |
| 11:35:04 | spung | mallum: i had 16 at maths... |
| 11:35:14 | spung | anyway, gotta go home |
| 11:35:17 | mallum | ok |
| 11:35:20 | mallum | well done btw |
| 11:35:21 | spung | and start coding on gpe-today |
| 11:35:52 | spung | and bug hunting |
| 11:35:59 | spung | found some new bugs, heh |
| 11:36:15 | spung | pb_: the gtk-theme-gpe has some bugs ;) as well as gpe-appmgr |
| 11:36:27 | spung | will report them when I get home |
| 11:36:28 | mallum | spung: dont forget the xkbd documentation ! |
| 11:36:38 | pb_ | spung: I'll make a special place in bugzilla for the theme. |
| 11:36:57 | mallum | spung: and try and make sure you can reproduce the bugs before you report then |
| 11:37:21 | spung | mallum: yes, i've been thinking about that.. i think i'll just try to create a way (like, ipkgs..) to make xkbd i18n easy |
| 11:37:33 | spung | mallum: yes, these are reproducible |
| 11:37:37 | spung | =) |
| 11:37:48 | mallum | spung: cool |
| 11:38:27 | spung | pb_: just close the appmgr prefs window using the window manager's X, and appmgr will exit too causing the X server to restart |
| 11:39:27 | spung | pb_: also, please make that screen locking optional, and disable it by default!! it's such a pain to type the password everytime you suspend! |
| 11:40:22 | moray | spung: we don't have the configuration program yet ;) |
| 11:41:08 | pb_ | spung: you can disable it by removing a file from Xsession-gpe.d, that's about the best we can do in absence of a setup program. |
| 11:41:43 | pb_ | spung: I have no idea what's going on with appmgr: firstly, that doesn't happen for me, and secondly appmgr quitting should not cause the whole session to go away. |
| 11:42:49 | moray | pb_/mallum: maybe the best thing with gpe-appmgr is to do a patch that puts it to the back on the close button? I don't see what argument at all there could be about that... - then once we've got that we could always change it to *in fact* quit without changing the visible behaviour |
| 11:43:24 | pb_ | moray: indeed, want to have a go at that? |
| 11:44:06 | moray | pb_: well, I don't have time to do so immediately, but I can put in on my list to do next if no one gets to it first... |
| 11:44:19 | spung | pb_: hmm... damn.. well, it happens to me |
| 11:44:47 | pb_ | spung: assuming you are using the default session, the only way to make it exit is to kill matchbox. |
| 11:45:03 | spung | pb_: i'm using gpe-dm |
| 11:45:29 | pb_ | right. |
| 11:45:55 | spung | don't you guys think that gpe-appmgr should be a desktop type app |
| 11:46:02 | spung | and gpe-today embedded into it? |
| 11:47:15 | spung | also, maybe some kind of file browser |
| 11:47:33 | moray | spung: I'm not yet convinced... |
| 11:47:40 | colin_werk | Leeds: do you have an ipkg for your cogg? |
| 11:48:32 | moray | spung: e.g. if it's a desktop type app, then I bring it to the front, what do I do to get back to the other programs? and why should that be different from usual in UI terms? |
| 11:49:17 | spung | moray: well, there's mbcontrol -desktop which would bring other programs to the front |
| 11:50:18 | moray | spung: but surely if it's a desktop app the user can no longer naively press the close button *as usual* to get back to other programs? |
| 11:50:59 | spung | moray: well.. with the gpe-dm session you actually can't close it... really |
| 11:51:30 | pb_ | spung: why not? |
| 11:51:54 | spung | pb_: hmm.. well press the X a lot.. it just won't quit.. |
| 11:52:11 | pb_ | spung: that's not a property of the session, gpe-appmgr itself is ignoring the quit message. |
| 11:52:20 | pb_ | spung: if you install the bootleg appmgr from www.handhelds.org/~pb it will quit. |
| 11:52:48 | spung | pb_: hmmm.. oh ok. it's actually a good think IMO anyway |
| 11:53:48 | moray | spung: assume that you're running keylaunch, and so pressing one button brings appmgr up. why is it a good thing that you can't then get rid of it again simply...? |
| 11:54:07 | spung | moray: yeah, I see.. |
| 11:54:15 | moray | (it's ok if the other program you're running is on another button of course... ;) |
| 11:54:31 | spung | moray: what about gpe-today, how do you think it should behave= |
| 11:55:28 | pb_ | I still quite like the idea of having it swallowed into a gpe-appmgr tab. Did you go off that? |
| 11:56:26 | spung | pb_: yeah, i've been using appmgr and have been imagining (heh) gpe-today swallowed there.. and i like the idea |
| 11:57:08 | spung | although being a desktop app would allow for quite a but of extra space |
| 11:58:09 | pb_ | Only about 16 pixels of vertical space, surely? Not a huge amount. |
| 11:59:14 | spung | pb_: well, plus appmgr's notebook thing |
| 11:59:28 | moray | I can certainly see that it would make sense to have gpe-today as the default program - on a handheld more sense in fact than having gpe-appmgr (?), but I'm worried that putting today and appmgr into tabs together could be counter-intuitive |
| 12:00:05 | pb_ | moray: why do you say that? |
| 12:00:07 | moray | i.e. I don't think someone looking for the today view would look in the program launcher, or that someone looking for the program launching would look in the today view |
| 12:00:37 | pb_ | Mmm, maybe. |
| 12:01:20 | spung | speaking of which, this icon thing is not very intuitive really |
| 12:01:29 | pb_ | "this icon thing"?! |
| 12:01:40 | spung | my father had a hard time figuring out to do stuff like adding a new calendar event |
| 12:01:59 | spung | pb_: the iconbars in programs ;) |
| 12:02:01 | moray | though certainly gpe-today (to suggest another random idea) could have some kind of 'wizard'-type program launcher integrated - so that (a) clicking on appointments listed etc. took you to the right program and (b) there was a list at the bottom of 'New email message' / 'New todo item' etc. ? |
| 12:02:33 | colin_werk | I like gpe-today as a page of gpe-appmgr. This should always be the first of the tabs, and also the one that is shown after a login. |
| 12:02:39 | spung | moray: good idea |
| 12:02:44 | pb_ | moray: yes, that sounds like a good idea; you're effectively making gpe-today a kind of frontend for the whole PIM suite. |
| 12:03:23 | spung | moray: but if gpe-today is the first one to get displayed it won't be so counter-intuitive |
| 12:03:38 | pb_ | colin_werk: yes, that was my original thinking too. I suppose it depends to some extent on whether you think of gpe-appmgr as "just" an application launcher, or whether you view it as being a kind of background program that's always running. |
| 12:04:09 | moray | spung: once someone's gone to another tab I'm not at all sure they'll realise to go back to the 'Today' tab or whatever to get back to that information |
| 12:04:10 | spung | pb_: IMHO, it should not be just a app launcher |
| 12:04:15 | pb_ | colin_werk: if your world-view is that gpe-appmgr is the application launcher, then I can see Moray's point that you wouldn't automatically think to look there to find out your appointments. |
| 12:04:37 | spung | moray: maybe that tab shouldn't have just a icon and always say "Today" ? |
| 12:05:04 | moray | spung: hm, I think the fact you're now saying it should look different shows you're seeing the problem... |
| 12:05:14 | spung | pb_: maybe appmgr's title shoudln't be "Programs" |
| 12:05:27 | spung | moray: yes |
| 12:05:45 | pb_ | spung: take it up with mibus, it would be easy to make it configurable on the command line, via an rc file or with X resources. |
| 12:06:27 | moray | I *would* argue that appmgr should probably include my proposed view of interesting files (i.e. things you've made) |
| 12:07:37 | spung | moray: yes, i agree.. i think it should display the contents of some folder.. maybe $HOME or $HOME/Documents |
| 12:07:56 | spung | moray: and it should have a Favourites tab too |
| 12:08:17 | pb_ | well, it already has the "Recent" thing, that kind of does the job of Favourites. |
| 12:08:23 | moray | I'd also point out that at the moment some GPE programs break a rule they should be following to be allowed in the unstable feed, by disregarding the Familiar menu policy... ;) - if we follow that there will be more tabs than just now |
| 12:08:41 | moray | spung: I think something's wrong if it needs a Favourites, really ;) |
| 12:09:05 | pb_ | didn't even know there _was_ a Familiar menu policy! |
| 12:09:17 | colin_werk | Well, spawning the Today app could mean that gpe-appmgr just switches to its 1st page if running. |
| 12:10:07 | moray | spung: my proposal was that programs could register files you edited; this would then be a quick way of getting at them, rather than having to go through a directory tree |
| 12:10:13 | moray | pb_: http://familiar.handhelds.org/policy/menu.html |
| 12:10:30 | moray | " In order for packages to be accepted into the Familiar feeds and releases, they MUST conform to this menu policy document. If you as a developer have an issue w/ any of the policies presented in this document, your best bet is to notify the familiar@ mailing-list. " ;) |
| 12:10:36 | Leeds-lunch | colin_werk: no ipkg - I'm not a fan of packaging, so I'm not going to go anywhere near that until it's 'done'... And I only built it last night :-) |
| 12:10:48 | pb_ | moray: do you think that people are likely to have so many files that using a directory browser would be cumbersome? |
| 12:10:59 | colin_werk | Leeds-lunch: okay. |
| 12:11:40 | moray | pb_: in fact I'm worried that using a directory browser at all on a handheld may be cumbersome (though I see the advantages of not altogether hiding the directory tree) |
| 12:11:40 | pb_ | moray: ha, yes, virtually none of the GPE packages conform to that document. |
| 12:12:28 | moray | pb_: although I don't like the term 'PIM' (most people won't know what it means), we probably should follow it (and patch things up in appmgr if we need to) |
| 12:12:42 | spung | moray: no... i think a favourites is good! |
| 12:12:47 | pb_ | moray: well, my concern is that by having apps register their files with appmgr, you will either end up with an unmanageable number of tabs, or appmgr will have to incorporate some kind of hierarchical view to control all the files anyway. |
| 12:13:20 | pb_ | moray: agreed, it would be no big deal for appmgr to remap the section name to something else for display - it needs to be able to do this for i18n purposes anyway. |
| 12:13:40 | moray | pb_: I was only suggesting they go into one tab - if you're worried there will be too many files then maybe it should be a 'Recent files' tab and only show the last N |
| 12:14:13 | pb_ | moray: Yeah, that would probably work. |
| 12:14:29 | moray | pb_: but if I (say) have a text file I'm adding things into it's a lot quicker to get it from the appmgr than to use a directory browser widget |
| 12:15:32 | moray | of course, in normal use most data should go into the database rather than separate files anyway.... |
| 12:15:47 | pb_ | moray: true. |
| 12:16:02 | spung | pb_: how's that database lib going? any news from DaveH? |
| 12:16:41 | pb_ | spung: had a mail from him last night that said his internet connection had been broken for a week or so, but he was still working on the library and "testing elements of it now" |
| 12:17:40 | spung | nice |
| 12:17:48 | spung | well, gotta go.. bbl |
| 12:23:46 | pb_ | mallum: xfree86 download seems to nearly be complete... ! |
| 12:24:20 | mallum | pb_: woohoo ! |
| 12:35:18 | pb_ | argh! |
| 12:35:22 | pb_ | Failed to fetch http://people.debian.org/~branden/sid/source/xfree86_4.2.0.orig.tar.gz MD5Sum mismatch |
| 12:36:11 | pb_ | well, hmm, I set it going again and it's storming along this time (comparitively speaking), 13KB/s. |
| 12:38:18 | pb_ | moray: by the way, the latest session-scripts package makes a directory in /mnt/ramfs/home when you log in and symlinks it into your real $HOME, might be nice for soundbite to start putting voice notes there if it exists. |
| 12:39:19 | moray | ooh ok |
| 12:39:42 | moray | are we planning on encouraging people to use NVRD, or just making sure they never need to reboot? |
| 12:43:34 | pb_ | moray: well, theoretically you should never need to reboot :-) |
| 12:44:00 | pb_ | moray: I haven't looked at NVRD: does it require memory to be set aside for its exclusive use? If so, that might make it impractical. |
| 12:50:40 | mallum | long lunch |
| 12:51:11 | Leeds | yup :-) |
| 12:51:15 | mallum | pb_: I got about 13k/sec tops out of xfree download |
| 12:51:21 | Leeds | I've been back for a bit, but pretending to work... |
| 12:51:38 | mallum | Leeds: do you have anything to do with the sun cobalt raqs ? |
| 12:52:06 | Leeds | mallum: nothing at all, except that I used to rent half of one, and palmos.vmlinuz.org (my Palm software site) still lives on it |
| 12:53:04 | mallum | Leeds: ok |
| 12:53:21 | Leeds | pb_: can't you get it from mirror.ac.uk? |
| 12:54:42 | pb_ | Leeds: possibly, but I'm not sure precisely which upstream xfree86 file I would need. |
| 12:55:25 | y| | is away: i'm away from the computer rightnow... |
| 12:55:56 | Leeds | pb_: ftp://ftp.mirror.ac.uk/sites/ftp.xfree86.org/pub/XFree86/4.2.0/source/X420src-[123].tgz are the three source files... |
| 12:56:28 | pb_ | Leeds: right, but the debian packaging system expects one big xfree86_4.2.0.orig.tar.gz file. |
| 12:57:31 | Leeds | pb_: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't like packaging systems, and I avoid them :-) |
| 12:59:17 | pb_ | :-/ |
| 13:42:38 | mallum | pb_: man assufield need to grow up |
| 13:42:50 | pb_ | mallum: heh |
| 14:21:13 | pb_ | ... 83% ... |
| 14:21:17 | pb_ | is on the edge of his seat |
| 14:26:24 | mallum | pb_: heh |
| 14:26:32 | mallum | pb_: it died for my on about 70% |
| 14:28:18 | moray | pb_: yes, I think NVRD requires you to set aside memory for it (I haven't actually tried it) |
| 14:28:46 | mallum | pb_: at this rate it may be compiled by tommorow morning ! |
| 14:31:04 | pb_ | mallum: yeah, we can hope. |
| 14:31:24 | pb_ | mallum: This time I'm downloading it to my machine here at the office, to avoid the vaguaries of NTL's transparent web proxy. |
| 14:31:32 | pb_ | 91.8% |
| 14:33:33 | pb_ | moray: that's pretty much what I suspected. I think that you will find either that the NVRD is too small to be any real use for data storage, or it's so large that on a 32MB machine you have no RAM left for anything else. At least with the current tmpfs arrangement the "ramdisk" can dynamically resize itself, so you don't have wasted memory tied up in it. |
| 14:34:29 | moray | pb_: yes, I'm just slightly concerned in case we end up with people asking us where all their data's gone ;) |
| 14:34:50 | moray | pb_: however, as long as a manual reset is the only way they'll lose the data it will be fairly obviously their own fault |
| 14:37:04 | pb_ | moray: yes, indeed. On the other hand, most other modern palmtops also store all user data in RAM, so I would hope users are accustomed to this now and back up regularly. There's a bit of a risk associated with the battery running flat, but I hope the new ipaq-sleep will help to avoid that. |
| 14:37:53 | pb_ | I suppose it's a bit difficult to preach convincingly about backing up when we have no working sync solution, but still. |
| 14:38:09 | pb_ | wow, 98.2%, I can hardly bear to watch. |
| 14:38:37 | moray | pb_: but equally it's a bit difficult to back up data when there aren't really any apps to produce it (IYSWIM), so it's not really a problem yet ;) |
| 14:38:51 | pb_ | moray: this is true :-) |
| 14:40:35 | pb_ | mallum: yeee-ha, download is complete! |
| 14:44:48 | mallum | pb_: woohoo |
| 14:44:58 | Nermal | mallum: I'll send that cheque to you tomorrow :) |
| 14:44:58 | mallum | pb_: now that time again to untar it |
| 14:45:09 | mallum | Nermal: cool, no rush |
| 14:45:11 | Nermal | been busy over the weekend |
| 14:46:16 | pb_ | mallum: well, first I have to copy it to my CATS on the other side of town, but that seems to be proceeding without any real trouble. |
| 14:57:16 | mallum | hometime ... |
| 16:04:59 | pb_ | hey |
| 16:05:08 | mallum | pb_: hey |
| 16:05:10 | pb_ | X is building :-) |
| 16:05:17 | mallum | pb_: just upgraded my cable connection to a meg :)) |
| 16:05:25 | pb_ | mallum: wow! |
| 16:05:26 | mallum | pb_: excellent |
| 16:05:54 | cmarqu_ | pb_: BTW, where is that new ipaq-sleep again? |
| 16:06:05 | mallum | pb_: telewest now offer it for an extra tenner a month |
| 16:06:11 | pb_ | cmarqu_: just in CVS at the moment, don't think I packaged it. |
| 16:06:24 | pb_ | mallum: damn, wish NTL did that. |
| 16:06:31 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Ah, okay. |
| 16:06:39 | mallum | pb_: can you not switch to telewest where you are ? |
| 16:07:03 | mallum | pb_: telewest have only just started offering it, so maybe NTL will aswell soon |
| 16:07:42 | cmarqu_ | pb_: In case you package it, can you add a Recommends: for isgui? Even if not supported by ipkg, it raises the chance that people will know about it. |
| 16:16:56 | cmarqu_ | moray: You rule. Thanks for the "max. remaining recording time". |
| 16:18:04 | pb_ | mallum: don't think so, as far as I know NTL is my only option. |
| 16:18:17 | pb_ | cmarqu_: sure, will do. |
| 16:19:42 | cmarqu_ | pb_: I see there is no familiar directory in ipaq-sleep at all. Do you want me to fix that, so that you can go finish gpe-contacts or something like that in the meantime? :) |
| 16:19:55 | pb_ | cmarqu_: please do! :-) |
| 16:20:00 | cmarqu_ | :) |
| 16:27:05 | cmarqu_ | Uh. Would it be Recommends: or Suggests: in Debian? I always mix them up... |
| 16:27:29 | pb_ | No idea, you'd have to check the documentation or ask New-Maintainer Man. |
| 16:27:46 | cmarqu_ | New-Maintainer Man? |
| 16:28:06 | pb_ | mallum! |
| 16:28:32 | mallum | uh? |
| 16:28:47 | cmarqu_ | Well, since they are not supported anyway in ipkg, it doesn't matter. And the difference between the too is probably too subtle for ipkg for a long time anyway. |
| 16:28:52 | cmarqu_ | mallum: ! |
| 16:28:53 | cmarqu_ | :) |
| 16:29:05 | mallum | cmarqu_: I think they are just used by deselect |
| 16:29:22 | Veggen | Does the GPE database-things support several users on the same Ipaq? |
| 16:29:42 | cmarqu_ | mallum: Okay. I just put a Suggests: there then. |
| 16:29:53 | Veggen | (this probably *is* answered in some docs. In that case, just point me in the right direction :) |
| 16:30:26 | pb_ | Veggen: all the databases are stored in $HOME, so yes. |
| 16:30:38 | Veggen | pb: ah, right. |
| 16:30:58 | cmarqu_ | Veggen: http://cvs.handhelds.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/gpe/base/OPDS/docs/ :) |
| 16:31:08 | Veggen | pb: so theoretically, when syncing get implemented, you'll have to configure what user you're going to sync to? Or something? |
| 16:31:17 | pb_ | Veggen: guess so, yes. |
| 16:31:34 | cmarqu_ | SyncML probably has ideas about that too... |
| 16:35:01 | pb_ | Yeah, I expect so. |
| 16:40:00 | spung | pb_: about a gtk-theme-gpe bug: http://handhelds.org/scap/port.11275.png |
| 16:40:32 | spung | pb_: those little grey pixels... stay around the tabs |
| 16:41:04 | pb_ | which pixels? It's not very clear on my screen. |
| 16:41:40 | spung | pb_: bellow the tab icons.. i don't they should be there |
| 16:42:04 | pb_ | right, I see them. |
| 16:42:35 | pb_ | can't think what would cause that, though, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing the theme has much control over. |
| 16:42:41 | pb_ | might be a generic xenophilia bug I suppose. |
| 16:42:57 | spung | pb_: indeed.. there are some things about xenophilia i don't like.. |
| 16:43:16 | pb_ | well, by all means suggest a better engine. |
| 16:43:17 | spung | pb_: like the black square it draws around buttons that have been pressed |
| 16:43:24 | spung | pb_: i hate that :\ |
| 16:46:22 | cmarqu_ | pb_: isgui is a python app. But for completeness' sake, do we want it in GPE CVS? |
| 16:46:41 | pb_ | can't hurt to have it there I guess. |
| 17:04:39 | mallum | pb_: that code earlier doesn't appear to be working |
| 17:04:41 | moray | cmarqu_: maybe you should include a note that this isn't an excuse for people to write new stuff in python ;) |
| 17:04:57 | mallum | pb_: strcat is not advancing the *cmd pointer |
| 17:05:54 | pb_ | mallum: oops, check it in or mail me the fragment and I'll look at it again. |
| 17:06:41 | cmarqu_ | moray: :) But where? touch DONT_WRITE_GPE_APPS_IN_PYTHON ? |
| 17:07:14 | moray | cmarqu_: that sort of thing ;) - I was just anticipating someone trying to argue that we must want python stuff really since it's in there... |
| 17:07:34 | mallum | pb_: its easy to fix, I just wondered if theres a nicer way of doing it; |
| 17:07:40 | cmarqu_ | Yeah. Well, why not a touch... |
| 17:08:08 | mallum | pb_: strcat(cmd, c->argv[0]); is keeping cmd pointing at the beginning of the string, when it needs to point at its end |
| 17:08:52 | mallum | pb_: I can just advance it on with a while(*cmd++ != '\0'); |
| 17:09:06 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Could you check ipaq-sleep's Makefile for "#CM", see if that's okay, and check this in? |
| 17:12:16 | pb_ | mallum: cmd = stpcpy (cmd, c->argv[0])? |
| 17:12:50 | pb_ | cmarqu_: sorry, check what in? |
| 17:13:18 | mallum | pb_: aha, I knew you'd know a more special way ;) |
| 17:13:20 | cmarqu_ | pb_: The Makefile with the lines uncommented if okay. |
| 17:13:56 | pb_ | mallum: yeah, I am Uli Drepper in my spare time. |
| 17:14:10 | pb_ | cmarqu_: okay, will do shortly. Trying to find my lost cheque book at the moment :-/ |
| 17:17:01 | mallum | pb_: Uli Drepper ? |
| 17:19:10 | pb_ | mallum: glibc maintainer and master of obscure string functions. |
| 17:20:32 | pb_ | cmarqu_: looks OK |
| 17:20:46 | mallum | pb_: aha, with a name like let, Id be into obscure string functions too |
| 17:20:49 | cmarqu_ | Ha! I rule! :) |
| 17:20:52 | pb_ | cmarqu_: except: the old ipaq-sleep installed in /etc/X11/Xsession.d I think, this one installs in /etc/X11/Xsession-gpe.d |
| 17:21:07 | cmarqu_ | Oh. I don't rule. |
| 17:21:09 | cmarqu_ | Yeah. |
| 17:21:35 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Yes, it installed in /etc/X11/Xsession.d |
| 17:21:38 | pb_ | cmarqu_: Well, you rule quite a lot. But to rule totally, you have to find a way to unify the two Xsession directories. |
| 17:22:04 | cmarqu_ | pb_: I. Like. Suck. |
| 17:22:50 | cmarqu_ | I guess I'm better in translating some stuff for now, and prepare apps for translation. |
| 17:22:54 | mallum | pb_: client.c:91: warning: implicit declaration of function `stpcpy' ? yet Im includeing string.h ( and it works ) |
| 17:22:58 | pb_ | cmarqu_: As an interim measure, maybe it could install in Xsession.d and have a postinst that makes an extra symlink into Xsession-gpe.d if that exists. |
| 17:23:07 | cmarqu_ | Or make apps use gtkrc's... |
| 17:23:11 | pb_ | mallum: you need to declare yourself to be Drepper too: -D_GNU_SOURCE |
| 17:23:36 | mallum | pb_: ah ok |
| 17:23:37 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Okay. |
| 17:23:46 | mallum | pb_: will that cause problems on BSD though ? |
| 17:23:48 | pb_ | cmarqu_: mccarthy would have a hissy fit if we broke ipaq-sleep for non GPE people. |
| 17:23:59 | pb_ | mallum: ah er, it might do, I dunno. |
| 17:24:14 | pb_ | mallum: I'm not sure how portable stpcpy is, exactly. |
| 17:24:34 | mallum | pb_: bad man, the big bsd bearded geeks will come and beat me |
| 17:24:42 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Well, we will have gotten bug reports and fixed it before he returns anyway :) |
| 17:25:16 | moray | CONFORMING TO |
| 17:25:16 | moray | This function is not part of the ANSI or POSIX standards, |
| 17:25:16 | moray | and is not customary on Unix systems, but is not a GNU |
| 17:25:16 | moray | invention either. Perhaps it comes from MS-DOS. |
| 17:25:17 | moray | ha |
| 17:25:42 | pb_ | cmarqu_: ha. |
| 17:25:56 | pb_ | mallum: ah nasty. |
| 17:28:11 | mallum | pb_: advising me to use msdos code !!! ;) |
| 17:28:41 | pb_ | my secret is out! |
| 17:29:29 | moray | pb_: hm, I have no idea what's causing the problem with keylaunch (some buttons require 2 presses to actually raise windows) - do I get to blame matchbox? ;) |
| 17:29:53 | mallum | moray: when in doubt blame matchbox |
| 17:30:08 | pb_ | moray: only if you can prove it's calling XRaiseWindow, I guess. |
| 17:30:08 | moray | mallum: well exactly ;) |
| 17:30:34 | moray | pb_: I'd be less confused if the appmgr-raising also didn't work properly |
| 17:30:45 | pb_ | me too. |
| 17:31:18 | moray | (I'm running it from a console currently, and it gives identical debugging output AFAICS) |
| 17:32:03 | pb_ | yeah, very weird. |
| 17:32:31 | moray | pb_: hm, the two presses don't need to follow each other immediately (so it probably is an X interaction thing of some sort) |
| 17:32:51 | moray | (as in, you can press a different button between them) |
| 17:32:59 | pb_ | right, could well be. |
| 17:33:19 | pb_ | I don't have a clue what XRaiseWindow actually does under the covers, you would have to find some kind of hard-core xlib h4x0r for that. |
| 17:35:51 | mallum | moray: check that matchbox is actually noticing the raised window has been raised ( check the drop down window list 'looks' right ) |
| 17:39:02 | moray | mallum: I'm going to see if making the code less clever fixes it... |
| 17:41:12 | mallum | moray: you should of course use freedesktop.org NET_WM specs to it nicely ;) |
| 17:41:49 | cmarqu_ | pb_: that ipkg target should really be in a different Makefile. It also needs to copy preinst, postinst and conffiles in addition to control if existing. Easy to forget... |
| 17:41:54 | moray | (the answer was no) |
| 17:42:48 | moray | mallum: oh, I'm still waiting for you to provide the library version that does it all properly :) |
| 17:44:27 | mallum | moray: you've already got it |
| 17:44:40 | mallum | moray: its called xlib ;) |
| 17:45:09 | moray | mallum: I mean the 'show the appropriate window if it exists' library |
| 17:47:22 | mallum | moray: a list of active windows and there stacking order is kept on the root window togeather with the current active window id |
| 17:48:00 | mallum | moray: I can know something up for you if you want |
| 17:48:15 | mallum | moray: but play with that raisewindow a little more cos it *should* work |
| 17:51:36 | moray | mallum: erm, with the current (intentionally broken) iteration, on the presses which previously weren't having any effect it now raises a small cream window at the top-left... |
| 17:52:18 | pb_ | cmarqu_: yeah, wanna try to make a common makefile fragment that does that, and arrange to include it? |
| 17:53:08 | mallum | pb_, moray: is that gpe-help ? |
| 17:53:11 | cmarqu_ | should watch his mouth next time... :) |
| 17:53:57 | moray | doesn't know if it's gpe-help, though he wouldn't be surprised |
| 17:56:33 | pb_ | mallum: might be, or the mystery session leader window we found yesterday. |
| 17:57:34 | cmarqu_ | pb_: It might be that ipaq-sleep is correct now. isgui is in CVS too. |
| 17:57:59 | moray | http://handhelds.org/scap/port.7862.png |
| 17:58:35 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Where would I put that Makefile fragment? A "build" or "Misc" directory in CVS? |
| 17:58:54 | pb_ | moray: looks like gpe-help indeed. |
| 17:59:04 | pb_ | cmarqu_: yup, sounds good. |
| 17:59:23 | cmarqu_ | pb_: build then. |
| 17:59:45 | moray | pb_: what's its window title? (I'm trying to work out why it would confuse things) |
| 18:01:30 | pb_ | moray: I don't think it sets one. See libgpewidget/what.c. |
| 18:07:55 | pb_ | cmarqu_: ipaq-sleep looks great. You were right, you _do_ rule! |
| 18:08:40 | cmarqu_ | blushes |
| 18:08:50 | pb_ | Oh, but, wait |
| 18:09:10 | pb_ | I think it's a bit over-enthusiastic to install it in /etc/init.d _and_ in Xsession. |
| 18:09:27 | pb_ | That way people will end up with two copies running, which will presumably lead to all kind of hilarious results. |
| 18:09:34 | cmarqu_ | Argh. |
| 18:09:36 | cmarqu_ | blushes |
| 18:10:08 | cmarqu_ | So... mv it around? |
| 18:10:45 | pb_ | I'd just drop the init.d/rc2.d stuff altogether. |
| 18:11:49 | cmarqu_ | Ah. Let me see if that's not how mccarthy had it though... |
| 18:11:50 | pb_ | We can put something in the session scripts to make sure that some kind of ipaq-sleep is running while the machine is sitting at the login prompt - you probably want a more aggressive configuration there anyway. |
| 18:13:18 | cmarqu_ | pb_: I see. I mixed what you had in the Makefile with what mccarthy had in the ipk |
| 18:13:44 | cmarqu_ | pb_: To be honest, I feel uneasy to tweak that area more. |
| 18:16:41 | pb_ | cmarqu_: okay, can you summarise what mccarthy had in the old ipk? |
| 18:17:55 | cmarqu_ | morphin:~/ipaq/ipaq-sleep_0.7-2$ cat etc/X11/Xsession.d/69ipaq-sleep |
| 18:17:55 | cmarqu_ | /etc/init.d/ipaq-sleep start |
| 18:18:11 | cmarqu_ | Then the stuff in the preinst. |
| 18:18:34 | cmarqu_ | The postinst is mine. |
| 18:18:55 | pb_ | okay |
| 18:19:05 | pb_ | so he didn't have anything in /etc/rc2.d? |
| 18:19:12 | cmarqu_ | pb_: No. |
| 18:19:40 | pb_ | Righto. Well, just remove the line that makes that symlink from your makefile and we should be good to go. |
| 18:19:51 | cmarqu_ | Okay. |
| 18:20:07 | pb_ | I don't really understand what's going on with the preinst, looks like some kind of backwards compatibility magic. |
| 18:22:00 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Committed. |
| 18:24:35 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Would just "include"ing the Makefile snippet be good enough, or did you have some other magick in mind? |
| 18:24:42 | pb_ | cmarqu_: just include is fine. |
| 18:24:49 | cmarqu_ | Good. |
| 18:25:15 | pb_ | Okay, the makefile looks flawless now :-) |
| 18:25:29 | cmarqu_ | At last. *sigh* |
| 18:25:34 | pb_ | heh |
| 18:25:42 | cmarqu_ | Till the first bug report. |
| 18:26:33 | pb_ | Well, yeah, bug reports are pretty much an occupational hazard. But hey, complaining about bugs seems to keep the Portugese kids off the streets. |
| 18:26:49 | cmarqu_ | LOL |
| 18:27:28 | cmarqu_ | I guess getting no feedback at all is worse for a developers morale than getting lots of bug reports. |
| 18:27:55 | pb_ | Yah, indeed. |
| 18:28:26 | cmarqu_ | "We scare because we care." |
| 18:28:49 | Veggen | cmarqu: guess so. Hey, I've written some small software tools, which I thought noone used (they weren't exactly marketed, but they were stuffed in a public ftp). It did wonders to my self-esteem to get feature requests from a user in Italy, once :) |
| 18:28:58 | pb_ | :-) |
| 18:29:45 | cmarqu_ | Indeed. I have some elisp code out there, but only like 5 people seem to use it. |
| 18:31:11 | moray | anyway, I'm sure the bug reports will become much more irritating when GPE starts being actually used by people... |
| 18:31:30 | moray | "hey, I downloaded your software and now I've lost all my contact info! you suck!" |
| 18:32:14 | cmarqu_ | Right :/ |
| 18:32:33 | pb_ | Yeah, we can look forward to top quality bug reports like we get for the boot-floppies: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2002/debian-boot-200207/msg00350.html |
| 18:33:15 | cmarqu_ | $ cat /home/colin/.signature.funny9 |
| 18:33:15 | cmarqu_ | It's inevitable. The un-mentioned task of any open-source author is, |
| 18:33:15 | cmarqu_ | whether we like it or not, the hand-holding of afore-mentioned user. |
| 18:33:15 | cmarqu_ | [...] |
| 18:33:16 | cmarqu_ | Our pillows are for screaming into. [D J Hawkey Jr] |
| 18:33:25 | pb_ | ha! |
| 18:37:45 | pb_ | uh, anybody feel like fixing the ipaq-sleep control file to distinguish between short and long description? |
| 18:38:44 | pb_ | I know that, like, 95% of the other packages in Familiar get that wrong too, but now that ipaq-sleep is a GPE package we ought to hold it to higher standards. :-) |
| 18:40:58 | moray | pb_: erm, do any GPE packages actually do long descriptions right just now...? ;) |
| 18:42:16 | pb_ | moray: no, but at least their short descriptions are self-contained, rather than just launching into the long one, cf: |
| 18:42:20 | pb_ | xmessage - Puts its command-line argument up on the screen in a |
| 18:42:25 | pb_ | xrmouse - GTK+ based mouse button rotating application what help you |
| 18:42:28 | moray | yes |
| 18:43:40 | pb_ | moray: I only discovered the "ipkg info" command a few days ago, before that the long descriptions didn't seem very useful. |
| 18:53:51 | mallum | hmm, it appears ipkg doesn't support versioned conflicts |
| 18:55:43 | mallum | sh-2.03# ipkg install matchbox_0.3.2_arm.ipk |
| 18:55:43 | mallum | ERROR: The following packages conflict with matchbox: |
| 18:55:43 | mallum | xmonobut mmenu xstroke |
| 18:56:08 | mallum | and my conflicts looks like this; |
| 18:56:11 | mallum | Conflicts: xmonobut < 0.4pre1, mmenu < 0.7pre1, xstroke < xstroke-ma5_0.5.2 |
| 18:56:38 | cmarqu_ | pb_: I'll handle the ipaq-sleep control file, and isgui too. |
| 18:57:16 | pb_ | cool. |
| 18:57:25 | pb_ | mallum: :-( |
| 18:57:53 | pb_ | mallum: that's not quite the right format for conflicts: it's usually xmonobuf (<< 0.4pre1), mmenu (<< 0.7pre1) etc |
| 18:57:58 | pb_ | I thin |
| 18:57:59 | pb_ | k |
| 18:58:04 | mallum | pb_: yeah that what I thought too |
| 18:58:11 | mallum | pb_: I'll try that |
| 18:58:29 | cmarqu_ | pb_: Oh. You did already. So isgui it is for me even though not a GPE app. |
| 18:59:07 | pb_ | cmarqu_: No, moray did. |
| 18:59:23 | pb_ | cmarqu_: is isgui.py actually in CVS? |
| 18:59:24 | cmarqu_ | Ah. |
| 19:01:01 | cmarqu_ | Uh. It is now. |
| 19:01:10 | pb__ | Excellent. |
| 19:02:54 | cmarqu_ | We should also take care to alwasy write "iPAQ", not Ipaq. Let me fix ipaq-sleep's control file in that regard. :) |
| 19:04:14 | mallum | pb_: sigh it dont work like that either :( |
| 19:04:58 | cmarqu_ | I also added that ipaq-sleep looks at battery status to control. |
| 19:16:57 | mallum | pb_: matchbox 0.3.2 just uploaded into unstable |
| 19:18:56 | mallum | pb_: it has the calculator fix - see scap |
| 19:20:54 | cmarqu_ | mallum: BTW, why does the akwa theme only have "inactive" windows? That blueish color is for inactive windows anyway |
| 19:21:11 | mallum | cmarqu_: ? |
| 19:21:20 | moray | cmarqu_/mallum: yes, that stopped me using it ;) |
| 19:21:23 | pb_ | mallum: cool |
| 19:21:45 | cmarqu_ | mallum: a real Aqua has these colored buttons |
| 19:21:52 | moray | mallum: when a window is active the buttons/titlebar should be 'lit up' in brighter colours |
| 19:22:37 | cmarqu_ | Who put up http://handhelds.org/scap/port.11275.png ? I want these app too! They look so nice in gpe-appmgr :) |
| 19:23:12 | moray | (though they'd look nicer with a newer appmgr) |
| 19:23:13 | pb_ | That was spung. |
| 19:23:27 | pb_ | Which of those apps don't you have? |
| 19:23:29 | mallum | cmarqu_, moray: you are free to make themes that you like |
| 19:23:40 | moray | mallum: indeed, that's why I didn't complain before :) |
| 19:24:13 | mallum | only take a copy of the gimp and a text editor ;) |
| 19:24:17 | cmarqu_ | tetris, Root Shell, the two kbd apps |
| 19:24:56 | pb_ | cmarqu_: ipkg install gpe-tetris gpe-su gpe-kbd |
| 19:25:01 | cmarqu_ | Ah. The new ipkg has the debuggin info again. |
| 19:25:08 | moray | pb_: (hey, you just beat me to that) |
| 19:25:30 | cmarqu_ | pb_, moray: Thanks :) |
| 19:26:07 | moray | btw, is it a bug in gpe-soundbite's menu file that means only one item of two appears, or an appmgr bug that means it only looks for one item? |
| 19:26:30 | pb_ | I'd kind of suspect the latter, does mmenu show both? |
| 19:27:06 | Veggen | cmarqu: is that why the ipkg upgrade suddenly ate 300k more memory? ;) |
| 19:27:22 | cmarqu_ | Veggen: could well be.. |
| 19:27:59 | moray | pb_: apparently it does, yes |
| 19:28:07 | cmarqu_ | Can I make gpe-appmgr read the menu files again? From the GUI? |
| 19:28:33 | pb_ | cmarqu_: you can send it SIGHUP; its menu-methods should do this automatically (but see bug #39) |
| 19:28:46 | cmarqu_ | Ah, bug. |
| 19:28:53 | moray | cmarqu_: a workaround is to enter and exit the appmgr configuration thing |
| 19:29:39 | cmarqu_ | Ah. |
| 19:33:17 | spung | hmm... |
| 19:33:25 | spung | scummvm |
| 19:33:32 | spung | makes gpe-appmgr crasah |
| 19:33:35 | spung | crash |
| 19:33:46 | cmarqu_ | Okay. /gpe/base/build/Makefile.dpkg_ipkg exists. Feel free to use it before I get around fixing things up (and break everything while doing that). |
| 19:34:03 | moray | spung: its menu entry crashes appmgr, or running scummvm crashes appmgr? |
| 19:34:12 | spung | moray: running scummvm |
| 19:34:23 | moray | spung: I'd probably blame scummvm then...... |
| 19:34:26 | pb_ | wow |
| 19:34:34 | pb_ | spung: is it running out of memory? |
| 19:34:46 | spung | Gtk-WARNING **: invalid unclassed pointer in cast to `GtkObject' |
| 19:34:46 | spung | Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkobject.c: line 1070 (gtk_object_get_data_by_id): assertion `GTK_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed. |
| 19:34:49 | spung | Gtk-WARNING **: invalid unclassed pointer in cast to `GtkObject' |
| 19:34:52 | spung | Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkobject.c: line 1023 (gtk_object_set_data_by_id): assertion `GTK_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed. |
| 19:34:55 | spung | Gtk-WARNING **: invalid unclassed pointer in cast to `GtkObject' |
| 19:34:57 | pb_ | crumbs |
| 19:34:57 | spung | Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkobject.c: line 1070 (gtk_object_get_data_by_id): assertion `GTK_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed. |
| 19:35:00 | spung | Gtk-WARNING **: invalid unclassed pointer in cast to `GtkObject' |
| 19:35:03 | spung | Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkobject.c: line 1023 (gtk_object_set_data_by_id): assertion `GTK_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed. |
| 19:35:06 | spung | Gtk-WARNING **: invalid cast from `(unknown)' to `GtkObject' |
| 19:35:08 | spung | Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkobject.c: line 1070 (gtk_object_get_data_by_id): assertion `GTK_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed. |
| 19:35:11 | spung | Gtk-WARNING **: invalid cast from `(unknown)' to `GtkObject' |
| 19:35:14 | spung | Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkobject.c: line 1023 (gtk_object_set_data_by_id): assertion `GTK_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed. |
| 19:35:58 | spung | and segfault |
| 19:38:54 | moray | hm, still trying to track down the keylaunch problem - what's confusing me now is that it doesn't get things wrong when the program it's looking for isn't running |
| 19:39:21 | pb_ | hmm |
| 19:39:49 | pb_ | moray: d'ya think it's related to the fact that gpe-appmgr uses a non default window name, and nothing else does? |
| 19:40:24 | moray | pb_: that could be why appmgr isn't having the same problem I suppose |
| 19:40:31 | spung | anyway, why does minitime show a different time than 'date' ?? |
| 19:40:40 | mallum | pb_: I just uplaoded some new hopefully ok debs of 0.3.2 to hh.org/~mallum/downloadables/debian/ |
| 19:40:42 | spung | daylight saving stuff again? |
| 19:40:42 | pb_ | moray: sounds like it may be latching on to one or more of these phantom windows that GPE apps create. |
| 19:40:51 | mallum | pb_: can you sponsor it into unstable ? |
| 19:40:57 | pb_ | mallum: sure thing |
| 19:41:15 | spung | mallum: ohh here you are.. why does minitime show a different time than 'date' ?? |
| 19:41:47 | moray | pb_: indeed. maybe I should see if changing window names makes that work (of course this is only another pointer to the fact that looking for window names is the wrong thing to do, really) |
| 19:42:30 | pb_ | mallum: hmm, you've built it as a native package, but with a non-native version number: the debian policy police will probably string me up by god knows what if I upload that. |
| 19:43:01 | cmarqu_ | moray: gpe-soudbite's title should prbably be "Record *M*emo" to be consisten with the rest of the app.</nitpick> |
| 19:44:18 | mallum | pb_: hmm, how have I managed to do that ? |
| 19:44:30 | pb_ | dunno, did you intend it to be native? |
| 19:44:35 | mallum | pb_: no |
| 19:44:44 | pb_ | maybe you forgot to create the .orig.tar.gz |
| 19:44:50 | cmarqu_ | Hm, the joypad mapping to gpe-appmgr is a bit strange... |
| 19:44:57 | mallum | pb_: I did put it in the source directory ...? |
| 19:45:03 | mallum | pb_: maybe I missnamed it |
| 19:45:25 | pb_ | mallum: it needs to go in the parent directory to where you're building. |
| 19:45:35 | mallum | pb_: aha |
| 19:45:42 | mallum | pb_: its named matchbox_0.3.2.orig.tar.gz |
| 19:45:49 | mallum | pb_: that right eh ? |
| 19:45:51 | pb_ | I think that's right |
| 19:46:04 | spung | mallum: :( |
| 19:46:08 | mallum | -'s goto _'s right |
| 19:46:13 | pb_ | yeah |
| 19:46:23 | moray | cmarqu_: hm, that's me not liking unnecessary capitalisation; 'Record Memo' reads to me as if 'Memo' must be some special named thing - in fact, this is an American / British titling difference (in the US its the done style to capitalise most words in headings, but it's not in Britain) |
| 19:46:30 | spung | cmarqu_: aren't you the scummvm maintainer? =) |
| 19:46:46 | cmarqu_ | spung: Nooooo! Just the packager. Ask Bbrox |
| 19:47:02 | spung | cmarqu_: it doesn't work with ESD does it? |
| 19:47:19 | moray | cmarqu_: however, given that we want to fit in with GNOME etc. I guess we can have extraneous capital letters... |
| 19:47:23 | cmarqu_ | moray: Ah. I wouldn't know about these subtle differences... |
| 19:47:48 | spung | mallum: iuuuu uuuu.. any idea minitime prints different time from date ? |
| 19:47:55 | cmarqu_ | We need a Config Option/Config option for that :) |
| 19:48:01 | Veggen | duh. |
| 19:48:06 | Veggen | shutdown -r now in the wrong window. |
| 19:48:06 | cmarqu_ | spung: No idea, sorry. |
| 19:48:26 | pb_ | cmarqu_: we should create a special en_US translation with Lots Of Capitals. |
| 19:49:30 | cmarqu_ | Ah yeah. And I want German the way they wrote it in the 1600's. |
| 19:49:49 | cmarqu_ | BBIAB, food. |
| 19:49:59 | spung | pb_: any easy way to make normal apps work with esd? :\ |
| 19:50:05 | moray | anyway, I suppose the labels should really be something like 'Memo Recorder' and 'Memo Player' to fit in, but those sound awful... hm. |
| 19:50:24 | pb_ | moray: yep, looking for window names definitely doesn't seem right, but we don't seem to have much of an alternative at the moment. |
| 19:50:27 | spung | see.. this is why i think sound daemons are evil!! |
| 19:51:01 | pb_ | spung: "normal" as in completely ESD unaware? Not without recompiling. |
| 19:51:31 | spung | pb_: scummvm :P |
| 19:51:34 | pb_ | spung: If you were really desperate you could rig something with LD_PRELOAD, but that seems like strictly a last resort. |
| 19:51:41 | Veggen | spung: wasn't there an esddsp, once? |
| 19:52:05 | spung | Veggen: dunno |
| 19:52:27 | spung | pb_: i guess i'l just kill esd ... |
| 19:52:29 | pb_ | Veggen: that's what I was thinking of with LD_PRELOAD :-| |
| 19:52:35 | mallum | pb_: ok re-uploaded hopefully fixed packages |
| 19:52:53 | pb_ | Veggen: it still exists, but isn't packaged for Familiar at present. |
| 19:54:15 | pb_ | mallum: the .orig.tar.gz isn't in the download dir |
| 19:54:32 | Veggen | pb: shouldn't be too hard to package it? |
| 19:54:50 | Veggen | actually, the x86 library needed is only 7.3k large. |
| 19:55:03 | Veggen | ..which should be even smaller in arm, normally? |
| 19:55:05 | spung | cmarqu_: remember to make scummvm disable the keys daemon... pressing record to get the menu and gpe-soundbite getting started is not good.... |
| 19:55:05 | mallum | pb_: tis now |
| 19:55:06 | pb_ | Veggen: not at all, I just wasn't expecting anybody to want it. |
| 19:55:11 | spung | mallum: :\ |
| 19:55:17 | mallum | spung: what ? |
| 19:55:38 | spung | mallum: why does minitime show a different time than 'date' |
| 19:55:44 | Veggen | pb: but I think perhaps it should be a separate package? separate is good in Ipaq, right? |
| 19:55:45 | Veggen | :) |
| 19:55:46 | mallum | spung: it doesn't for me |
| 19:55:47 | spung | mallum: one hour earlier to be precise |
| 19:55:59 | cmarqu_ | spung: Can you file it in hh's bugzilla? I'm too tired today and might forget tomorrow. |
| 19:56:07 | pb_ | mallum: FWIW, if you write "Closes: #153085" in your changelog, the BTS will spot that and automatically close the bug for you. |
| 19:56:08 | spung | mallum: i copied my desktop's /etc/localtime |
| 19:57:01 | mallum | pb_: ah I new something like that |
| 19:57:17 | mallum | pb_: just on a line by itself ? |
| 19:57:56 | pb_ | mallum: doesn't matter, it can go anywhere on the line. |
| 19:58:03 | mallum | spung: ok feel free to grab the source and fix |
| 19:58:30 | pb_ | mallum: usual idiom is to write something like " * Removed rm -rf / from postinst (Closes: #123456)" |
| 19:58:44 | spung | pb_: could you tell mallum that there is a problem with minitime?) |
| 19:58:50 | pb_ | spung: I think he knows. |
| 19:59:12 | pb_ | spung mallum: could be related to calling localtime() on a value that came from gettimeofday, I think you might wind up doing the timezone offset twice. |
| 19:59:46 | spung | pb_: no, he has this script that adds "can I grab the source and fix that?" to everything i say |
| 20:00:07 | pb_ | spung: it's built in to the IRC server these days |
| 20:00:23 | spung | pb_: hah, just for me right? |
| 20:00:27 | pb_ | right. |
| 20:00:46 | spung | pb_: and DaveH |
| 20:02:50 | mallum | pb_: Im sure it pretty easy to fix - thats why I think its a good task for spung :) |
| 20:02:57 | pb_ | mallum: it's uploaded |
| 20:03:02 | pb_ | mallum: indeed. |
| 20:03:41 | spung | pb_: oh well, yet another not reproducible bug... now that i killed esd and scummvm runs properly gpe-appmgr doesn't crash |
| 20:04:20 | spung | well, I gotta go |
| 20:04:20 | mallum | pb_: ah just uploaded one with a fixed changelog |
| 20:04:24 | spung | cya |
| 20:04:26 | mallum | bye |
| 20:04:32 | pb_ | mallum: ah, sorry |
| 20:04:41 | pb_ | mallum: you'll have to close that bug by hand. :-/ |
| 20:04:55 | mallum | pb_: ok |
| 20:05:00 | mallum | pb_: how do I do that ? |
| 20:05:14 | pb_ | mallum: write to 123456-done@bugs.debian.org and say that you fixed it. |
| 20:05:26 | mallum | pb_: okie |
| 20:07:02 | pb_ | Veggen: -rwxr-xr-x 1 pb pb 8352 Jul 22 22:12 libesddsp.so.0.2.28 |
| 20:07:11 | mallum | takin a break ... |
| 20:07:12 | pb_ | Veggen: I'll make an esddsp package |
| 20:08:34 | Veggen | pb: wasn't actually me that requested it :) |
| 20:08:46 | Veggen | on a side-note, how do I, in GPE, PLAY the recordings? ;) |
| 20:32:39 | moray | Veggen: there's a gpe-appmgr bug which means the item isn't appearing |
| 20:33:07 | moray | Veggen: so 'gpe-soundbite play' for now... |
| 20:33:44 | spung | Veggen: there is menu entry tho.. |
| 20:34:16 | Veggen | spung/moray: won't interact with my esd. |
| 20:34:44 | spung | Veggen: hmm.. try upgrading to the latest version |
| 20:35:10 | Veggen | it's upgraded. |
| 20:35:21 | moray | Veggen: I don't think it was interacting with mine either the last time I tried - that would be a gpe-soundbite bug |
| 20:36:20 | Veggen | urk. "Multiple providers" etc... |
| 20:36:24 | Veggen | is that an ipkg bug? |
| 20:38:26 | spung | Veggen: well... welcome to familiar unstable.. ahrg |
| 20:38:28 | spung | =) |
| 20:38:37 | Veggen | I know, I know :) |
| 20:39:05 | spung | Veggen: ipkg is acting pretty weird lately |
| 20:39:11 | Veggen | yah. |
| 20:46:48 | spung | What do you guys recommend for developing on a console |
| 20:47:04 | cmarqu_ | emacs |
| 20:47:12 | spung | i'm trying to do some coding on gpe-today thru PuTTY and VNC |
| 20:47:43 | spung | cmarqu_: is there some way to make tabs work on emacs? and K&R mode? =) |
| 20:48:03 | Veggen | spung: matter of preference, I'm a hardcore vi(m) user. |
| 20:48:09 | spung | cmarqu_: i'll search for a tutorial |
| 20:48:23 | Veggen | spung: but that's a discussion best left alone, which editor is best :) |
| 20:48:48 | spung | Veggen: yeah, i'll probably use vi.. i'm used to it.. i keep pressing i and ESC on other editors |
| 20:49:04 | cmarqu_ | spung: emacswiki.org is the mother of all emacs starting points |
| 20:49:08 | spung | Veggen: what's the best way to have several files open at the same time |
| 20:49:11 | spung | cmarqu_: thanks |
| 20:49:45 | Veggen | spung: vi has multiple-windows-mode, but I tend to prefer just having several vim's running in different windows. |
| 20:50:12 | spung | cmarqu_: can you give me a better solution and convert me to emacs? =) |
| 20:51:03 | cmarqu_ | spung: No, you'll find there on your own eventually :) |
| 20:51:18 | spung | cmarqu_: heheh |
| 20:51:31 | spung | cmarqu_: not a emacs fanatic i see =) |
| 20:51:53 | cmarqu_ | :) |
| 20:52:17 | cmarqu_ | I read mail/news with emacs, so... |
| 20:52:34 | Veggen | ...while I prefer mutt and slrn :) |
| 20:52:45 | spung | Veggen: i prefer tin |
| 20:53:04 | Veggen | I used tin before. |
| 20:53:30 | spung | Veggen: btw, do you know of some way for mutt and evolution to share folders? that'd be nice! |
| 20:53:47 | cmarqu_ | IMAP :) |
| 20:53:51 | moray | indeed |
| 20:53:55 | moray | that's what I have |
| 20:54:05 | moray | (evolution setup to do everything via IMAP) |
| 20:54:12 | spung | cmarqu_: local imap? |
| 20:54:19 | Veggen | spung: yah, I can read mail on the server with mutt and access same folders via IMAP... |
| 20:54:29 | cmarqu_ | spung: Dunno, just crossed my mind |
| 20:54:34 | spung | oh ok |
| 20:54:48 | Veggen | spung: but can't evolution just use local mail-folders? |
| 20:54:56 | spung | Veggen: yeah.. |
| 20:55:02 | moray | spung: I at first had it doing it locally, but now I have a separate server box so it goes a few feet... |
| 20:55:04 | Veggen | it can do that too, right? then they would xshare? |
| 20:55:14 | moray | Veggen: I think so, but I don't trust it ;) |
| 20:55:20 | cmarqu_ | maildir is probably the safest locally |
| 20:55:41 | Veggen | cmarqu: I |
| 20:55:56 | Veggen | I'm actually using MH, though I've thought about perhaps switching to maildir.... |
| 20:56:05 | Veggen | is there any advantages with running maildir, really? ;) |
| 20:56:24 | spung | oh.. brb |
| 20:56:28 | cmarqu_ | fast and safe. But I didn't convert yet either |
| 20:56:49 | cmarqu_ | mbox still :/ |
| 20:57:30 | Veggen | cmarqu: I use MH. Been using that since mid-90's or so. |
| 20:58:09 | Veggen | has some of the same advantages (1 file per mail) |
| 21:06:15 | ciaolinux | how to find a pilot.rom |
| 21:09:32 | Veggen | ciaolinux: the idea is to take the one from your palm. |
| 21:09:49 | ciaolinux | Veggen: the problem is that i do not have a palm here |
| 21:10:06 | ciaolinux | but i need a rom image... |
| 21:10:22 | Veggen | I think there was a demo-rom somewhere along where you found the pilot-emulator. |
| 21:12:04 | ciaolinux | i didn't find any |
| 21:12:13 | Veggen | actually, I can't really remember. |
| 21:12:28 | ciaolinux | do you have 1? |
| 21:12:37 | Veggen | rom-file? not right now. |
| 21:24:46 | mallum | spung: m-x c-set-style |
| 21:56:29 | cmarqu_ | Night all. |
