IRC log for #gllug on 20090506

02:28.07*** join/#gllug Leeds (n=richardc@static-ip-251-82-134-202.rev.dyxnet.com)
03:18.52*** join/#gllug kinko (n=kinko@null.routed.be)
07:07.32j0nrgood morning
07:32.44LeedsI really am too geeky... "PDP wins Nigerian state election" - what, they couldn't find a VAX to stand?
07:39.06bilarh:D
07:45.36ChoHag"I don't know art but I know what I like. Books."
07:49.39bilarhyou need to work on your spelling :P
08:05.20*** join/#gllug zeroXten (n=zeroXten@80.83.157.42)
08:06.00bilarhhalifax claims house prices fell 1.7% in april... spring bounce :)
08:09.05Leedss/fell/only fell/
08:11.10bilarhexactly, that's the spring bounce green shoots of recovery
08:11.20bilarhafter april it will be back to -2.5% mom :)
08:11.44bilarhnah actually, i think -1.7% is a huge fall... don't think we'll see more numbers that big for a while
08:11.53bilarhfalls, yes, but not -1.7%
08:12.24bilarhthat's ~2720 off an average house of 160k
08:12.38bilarhof course, there is no "average house" as such, but still interesting
08:24.45Mohanmorning
08:25.38MohanCan a normal workstation class asus motherboard can handle 2TB LVM?
08:28.09LeedsI've got a more-than-2TB LVM at home on a bog-standard m/b
08:29.13ChoHagNo. LVM is software.
08:29.14Leedsit's a gigabyte board, I think - but anyway, it's nothing to do with the m/b, really, as long as it's got enough SATA slots
08:29.20ChoHagIt can probably handle the required discs though.
08:29.58ChoHagThough here I have to use an extra controller card to cope with all the discs.
08:29.59ChoHag6 I think.
08:30.34LeedsI think I'm going to be doing some more consolidation soon, since TB drives are so frigging cheap
08:32.02ChoHagTrue. Having a bunch of 250s isn't really worth the electricity these days.
08:33.04Leedsnoise, power, heat, etc.
08:33.49LeedsI also really need to get a quieter PSU for my server... I can barely hear my desktop, when it's on and idle, but I can hear my server from the next room
08:34.15ChoHagI've had good times with a bunch of coolermasters.
08:34.34ChoHagThe only PSU I can here these days is the ony with the broken fan.
08:34.39ChoHaghear
08:35.30LeedsI've got a pretty no-name PSU in the desktop, had to replace it a couple of months ago when the old one blew up... but it is nice and quiet
08:35.47Leedsthe server should probably have a slightly more robust one, since it's running a bunch of hard drives 24/7
08:36.02ChoHagYeah that's why I got these ones.
08:36.10ChoHagI got fed up a long time ago with cheap hardware.
08:37.50LeedsI don't mind cheap hardware, in a cheap'n'cheerful sense
08:38.10ChoHagWell yeah, but cheap hardware that's used more than occasionally is not worth it.
08:38.18ChoHagUsually ends up being more expensive anyway.
08:38.21Leedsbut when the slightly more expensive branded stuff is obviously better (quieter, cooler, better designed, etc.)
08:38.29AndyMillarChoHag: i've got 18TB on a desktop board here
08:38.37AndyMillarand it works :)
08:38.50AndyMillarok, there is a GBP 800 raid card in there though
08:38.51Leedsmy general principle is never to go for the *cheapest*, but one above the cheapest should be okay if it does what you need
08:38.53ChoHagWhat's the porn:data ratio?
08:38.59AndyMillar0:1
08:39.03AndyMillarit's work related :(
08:39.05ChoHagIn 18TB?
08:39.07ChoHagAh.
08:39.12Leedshow fast do your torrents run?
08:39.30AndyMillar250MB/s write, 400MB/s read
08:39.37AndyMillarLACP bonded 6 gige interfaces :p
08:39.43AndyMillarso it's fast :)
08:39.46AndyMillarand cost 4k
08:40.07ChoHagLife would be so much simpler without CVs.
08:40.11AndyMillaryes
08:40.16ChoHagOr at least without the HR people to filter them.
08:40.31AndyMillar"Hi, i'm awesome, kthxbye!
08:40.47ChoHagTo another engineer, my CV is perfect, but HR people need more blurb.
08:40.55ChoHagAnd I'm awful at blurb.
08:42.16AndyMillar:(
09:06.45wethrinChoHag: Stick some buzzwords in there
09:13.07bilarh"team player"
09:13.09bilarh"good communicator"
09:13.16bilarh"fanny snatcher"
09:13.17bilarhetc
09:15.53AndyMillar"willing to sleep with ugly HR people for this job"
09:17.49ChoHagRight I think I've played with the layout about as long as I'm allowed.
09:19.40Mohansorry i forgot to mention its 4 X 500GB seagate sata disk (2TB LVM) on Asus Board its used as a backup server
09:20.18MohanThe problem is it works fine for few days after a restart and the lvm goes down again
09:20.45Leedsand what do the logs tell you?
09:20.45Mohanthe server is used heavily atleas 50Gb is written to it everyday
09:21.33ChoHagIt must go down for a reason.
09:21.44ChoHagEverybody has a reason for that.
09:21.57ChoHagUh everything...
09:22.04Mohanlooks like kind of some queue overflow or something like that
09:22.19Mohanwhere a restart flushes the queue and it works fine again
09:22.24Leedslooks like some kind of...
09:22.27Leedsgood bug report
09:23.32Mohanthe system has 6 sata disks and every alternate weekend it goes down and its so annoying
09:24.07Leedsand what precisely is in the logs?
09:24.23Leedsevery alternate weekend?  say, when the cleaner is in the office? ;-)
09:30.01ChoHagWhat's code called which is used to do the same thing is the same way in different applications?
09:30.06ChoHagApart from a library.
09:30.37Mohanhttp://pastebin.com/d1382201d
09:30.57ChoHagLike if you were making code leaner, it would be streamlined, if you're making logging (say) homogeneous, you're $Xing.
09:31.13Mohansometimes i dont see anything in the logs, todays there is something interesting.
09:31.15LeedsChoHag: consolidating, standardising, centralising?
09:31.33LeedsreiserFS, really?
09:31.41ChoHagSee now I always worry about using a word like 'consolidate' lest I sound like I wear a tie in lieu of having a brain.
09:31.41Mohanyup
09:32.06Mohanand the restart shows replaying no of transactions from journal
09:32.57*** join/#gllug Provito (n=Provito@77-99-135-84.cable.ubr08.enfi.blueyonder.co.uk)
09:33.11Leedslooks to me like a driver and/or hardware failure
09:35.17Mohanits a fedora core  machine, earlier badblocks showed no of badblocks in sdb and after few weeks it all disappeared
09:40.39Leedsit's possible you're just pushing non-server hardware a bit too hard
09:41.26Leedsit's running an up-to-date kernel, I hope
09:59.30Mohanit is indeed running an update to date kernel. http://www.amazon.co.uk/ASUS-P5B-Deluxe-AiLifestyle-Motherboard/dp/B000I0RLCC
10:01.51Mohanit has an inbuilt raid controller which supports upto raid10, so its indeed a workstation class motherboard.
10:02.45Leedsexcept that the 'inbuilt RAID controller' is probably 90% implemented in the Windows drivers
10:03.07haliyes, it's a gamer motherboard :)
10:03.54haliich8r probably
10:04.22halibetter to do raid in software on that
10:06.42Mohani have just found that out of the 4 disks used for LVM one disk says just WD5000YS RE2 instead of WD5000YS caviar RE2
10:07.03haliprobably due to firmware
10:07.29halibut using bog standard sata drives and a random motherboard in a server is always a risk
10:07.36bilarhwtf bbq
10:07.44bilarhwhy is work so boring?!
10:07.53haliis having a few days off work :P
10:07.57bilarh*stab*!!!!11eleven!!!111!
10:08.18bilarhyou jammy leather pouch
10:08.49halii had 45 days holiday left
10:08.53halithey took 10 :(
10:08.56bilarhhehe bloody hell :D
10:09.04haliand i had to take another 10 before end of may
10:09.12Mohan45days holiday per year ?
10:09.22bilarhhow can you have 45 days left, and i have 0? :)
10:09.23halii carried over from a few years back
10:09.45halii think get 28 days a year
10:09.48haliwe get*
10:10.00Mohanwell mine is 20 :(
10:10.15halii've been working 2-3 work day weeks for the last month :P
10:10.26halibeen taking long weekends
10:10.54haliMohan: do you work in the uk?
10:13.09halithe statutory holiday entitlement in the UK is 27 or even 28 days (which may include bank holidays though)
10:13.23Mohanyes
10:13.25halithats the bare minimum they have to give, most companies give more
10:13.42halisend your HR manager this: http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employment/holidays/index.html
10:13.51bilarh20 days is perfectly legal afaik
10:13.53haliif you get 20 days, they are taking the piss
10:13.53Mohanwell my 20 is excluding bankholidays
10:14.11halibilarh: check the link ... 5.6 weeks
10:14.14bilarhhali: what would you care, you don't use yours anyway ;)
10:14.21haliif i understand it correctly :)
10:14.49halihm, ie8 just popped up in my windows update
10:15.53Mohanhas anyone tried windows7 RC yesterday ?
10:18.24bilarhhali: "If you already receive paid time off for bank holidays in addition to your four week holiday entitlement your holiday entitlement has not increased."
10:18.30bilarhso the four week additional is still ok
10:18.33bilarhlegally
10:19.42halido we have 8 bank holidays?
10:19.47haliprobably do with xmas i guess
10:20.03AndyMillarhmm, it looks like my 3ware is showing some rather random poor read performance
10:21.06haliweird, hardly ever seen poor read performance
10:21.22AndyMillaryeah
10:21.25AndyMillar30MB/s read
10:21.29AndyMillar60MB/s write
10:21.38bilarh2 at xmas, 2 at easter, 2 may bank hols, 1 august
10:21.39halithats half what you'd get native on a bog standard sata drive
10:21.40AndyMillarwhich is a lot crapper than I got using dd
10:21.45bilarhwhat's the last one? :S
10:21.59AndyMillarhali: indeed, it's performing worse than a single sata hdd
10:22.07AndyMillarand it's a 16 disk raid6 array
10:22.45hali3ware on that?
10:22.55halii'd use a real card for that many drives
10:23.00AndyMillarlike?
10:23.07halilsi/adaptec
10:23.14halii'd probably buy a branded box though
10:23.18halidell/sun/hp
10:23.22AndyMillari've got a  9650SE
10:23.57halisun j4200 is dirt cheap for stuff like that
10:24.56halior dell md3000 for external raid
10:27.20AndyMillarcost me 4k for 18tb space
10:28.05AndyMillarwhich really is dirt cheap
10:28.10haliand i wouldn't dare use 1.5tb drives in production :)
10:28.21AndyMillarinterestingly, 64k bs appears to be better
10:32.47AndyMillarhali: why not use the 1.5TB disks? :)
10:43.41wethrinhali: Why not? Appropriate RAIDiness to cover for drive failures. And, of course, appropriate backups
10:45.41AndyMillarhmm
10:45.56AndyMillarok, read/write performance with 64k and 265k block sizes is better
10:46.05AndyMillar(600MB/s read, 311MB/s write)
10:49.25MohanAndyMillar: What tool do you use to measure disk read/write speed ?
10:49.57AndyMillarthis is fio
10:53.20Mohanok, thanks.
10:56.05AndyMillari can send you a sample config if you like :-p
10:56.50AndyMillar(incidentally, to give hali some credit... one of the disks in this box has *just* died)
10:58.33antiphaseParity RAID fail
10:59.17AndyMillarraid6 with hot spare ftw
10:59.24antiphaseRumour has it that a certain online book retailer tends to use plain striped RAID with manual redundancy, because the rebuild performance of parity RAID when using large sdisks is abysmal
10:59.41antiphaseBoth the degraded write perf, and the fact that a failure is a crisis
11:00.40antiphaseIt takes hours to reconstruct a TB disk when it's out of use, and a single bit error can throw it
11:01.03antiphaseLook at the BER of modern disks, and it's high, but not high enough when you look at the number of bits involved
11:01.59z00daxthings get even more interesting when another disk fails during the rebuild
11:03.05AndyMillarheh
11:03.05z00daxI've seen plenty of people with rows of hdd's, with them running in serial-number order :)
11:03.14antiphaseD'oh
11:03.21AndyMillarz00dax: i've not quite got them in order /o\
11:04.45z00daxmostly vendors think you are being difficult when you say 'can I have those 8 hdd's with different batch numbers please'
11:05.12AndyMillarheh
11:05.23AndyMillari think i've got them from 2 separate batches
11:06.16AndyMillarwonders how long the rebuild is going to take :p
11:07.05AndyMillarprobably a few hours
11:07.07AndyMillar:(
11:08.45MohanAndyMillar: if you can please do so, i will have a look at it.
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11:26.24z00daxI think every project / app site should have a place where users can contribute their config files
11:34.40AndyMillarMohan: http://paste.hashphp.com/p/m386f7af5
11:37.08MohanAndyMillar: Thanks.
11:39.03AndyMillarnp
11:41.06ChoHagz00dax: Either that or actual documentation.
11:44.15z00daxChoHag: expecting docs that reflect reality is asking for way more than is reasonable.
11:44.22z00daxisnt that why god made source code ?
11:45.24AndyMillarz00dax: sadly god did not make infinite time though
11:45.36z00daxbad god
11:46.04AndyMillarindeed
11:50.17AndyMillarRAID is one of these awesome things that no-one bothers with till they get burned :D
11:53.22ChoHagI don't remember the last time I set up a machine without it.
11:53.45ChoHagExcept GamerOS but that doesn't count.
11:54.17z00daxwhats GamerOS ?
11:54.22ChoHagIncidentally, I reinstalled windows yesterday and it decided that my USB card reader thingy should be C and the hard drive should be H.
11:54.40ChoHagI can't wait to find out the interesting ways that breaks things in.
11:54.52ChoHagWindows.
11:55.02ChoHagI don't believe it has any other practical purpose.
12:00.13AndyMillarit doesn't
12:00.53MohanChoHag: you can reassign the drive names
12:01.03ChoHagNot the system drive.
12:07.21Mohantrue, it looks like you cant change the system drive.
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12:17.14Leedshas a Wii Fit
12:19.51ChoHagIs that a bit like a tantrum but more grown up?
12:22.35haliwethrin: considering the fail rate reported on 1.5tb drives i wouldn't touch them yet, but i don't even use "normal" sata 1tb drives either... only the nearline storage models
12:23.01haliand full restore of an array that size would be fairly expensive
12:24.08haliand i don't think anyone is selling 1.5tb drives yet
12:24.32halias in selling with 'certified for a large array' label
12:29.27AndyMillarno, they're not
12:29.37AndyMillarthe rebuild takes a few hours
12:45.03ChoHagHmm looks like tha banks are all re-hiring their geeks.
12:48.45ChoHagAnyone who wanted to know if I was lying about my old job, apply for it: http://www.jobserve.com/WF674DFB85B105334.jsjob
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13:03.30AndyMillargiven what you've said about it, I wouldn't work there for any less than twice that :p
13:04.12ChoHagBut the job would still only be worth half.
13:07.38AndyMillar;p
13:07.51AndyMillarthe job description doesn't look too bad ;p
13:08.33AndyMillarhmm
13:08.34ChoHagYeah that's why I applied last year.
13:08.43AndyMillarwhat value of Raw_Read_Error_Rate should you expect from SMART?
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13:11.05kraptvNugglets are for thuglets!
13:42.27wethrinhali: I've just ordered 6 1TB drives. So I hope they'll work :)
13:42.43kraptvwhat brand?
13:43.28dick_turpinwethrin: Wanna hear today's classic fault call?
13:45.29wethrinYes!
13:45.33wethrinkraptv: Deathstar
13:45.49wethrinhopes only one drive will fail at a time
13:45.56antiphaseThey're not bad these days
13:46.15kraptvwethrin: shitty.
13:46.21dick_turpinwethrin: I cant get any email through my wifi
13:46.23kraptvwe had problems with 1TB deathstars.
13:46.23antiphaseI've been using loads of Sun-branded ones and the failure rate is very low on the 500GB models
13:46.40kraptvit may have been our reseller selling us shit.
13:46.45Nafallo☠ DEATHSTAR ☠
13:46.59wethrin$friend is using them in maths.ox.ac.uk, and doesn't have a problem with them
13:48.26dick_turpinwethrin: Are you connected? "Yes2 Can you get on the Internet? "No" Have a look at the icon by the clock "It has a red cross" You're not f'ecking connected then are you you stupid cow" (Only joking I didn't really say that)
13:48.47wethrinAhh, user support.
13:48.48wethrinJust Don't.
13:57.40ChoHagTwo recruiters called within half an hour about the same rackspace job.
13:58.20wethrinWhich one offered you more money?
13:58.28ChoHagThey both offered crap money.
13:58.50wethrinWhat, you mean they didn't offer you the Gllug minimum of THREE HUNDRED MILLION A MONTH?
13:59.13ChoHagCan't even smell it on a good day.
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13:59.42antiphaseI wouldn't go outside Zone 1 for 300Mpcm
14:00.13bilarhdepends on if the job came with complimentary young virgins as well, not sure otherwise
14:00.24bilarhblind ones, of course
14:00.27bilarh(goes without sayign)
14:00.57dick_turpinthrows bilarh a blind old hag
14:00.58AndyMillarwethrin: that would make an interesting statistic... i wonder what the average gllug salary is
14:01.32dick_turpin£32.50, a month!
14:01.35kraptvChoHag: is this at the Uxbridge/Stockley Park rackspace location?
14:01.44wethrinThe ones who complained about all job adverts being too low salary never mentioned what their salary was...
14:01.50bilarhandymillar: 48.50 a week  ;)
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14:01.57AndyMillarbilarh: no, that's just morsing
14:02.05bilarhandymillar: maybe :)
14:02.11ChoHagYes.
14:02.19bilarhi unsubscribed months ago, too much rubbish posted there
14:02.27bilarhnot like here in #gllug where we only have sensible discussions :)
14:02.45dick_turpinpoints and laughs at bilarh
14:02.50AndyMillarwethrin: I seem to only remember complaining about the salary when there wasn't a salary posted (or in the one case of a decent job but the salary was less than an average graduate one)
14:03.02AndyMillarbut I'm tainted by working in finance :(
14:03.47wethrinEww, finance
14:04.02AndyMillarwhat's wrong with finance?
14:04.30wethrinIt sounds dull
14:04.39AndyMillars/finance/financial gambling/
14:04.49wethrinWhere to start? :)
14:05.00AndyMillar:-p
14:05.07AndyMillarpah! morals!
14:11.35kraptvChoHag: my office is in Stockley Park. I would have lunch with you at least once.
14:11.45kraptvat the famous SUBWAY OF STOCKLEY PARK
14:12.01ChoHagYou work for rackspace?
14:16.14kraptvNo way.
14:16.31kraptvbut I work say a good 500 metres awaty.
14:16.34kraptvaway.
14:16.43ChoHagOh. heh.
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15:07.31DiscordianUKgood day
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16:21.36Mohangood evening
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