| 00:17.26 | *** join/#gllug cupis (~paul@195.137.116.73) |
| 00:22.45 | Clyphox | [yawn] |
| 00:23.31 | highbury | slightly amended gllug pages now up, a few more of the older pages to update, left |
| 00:25.28 | murble | highbury: are we going to keep a page of past events with links to talks etc which i think we might have done in the past. |
| 00:26.02 | murble | and wonders if anyone has played with dovecot, as a courier-imap replacement. |
| 00:26.13 | JD | yes very nice |
| 00:32.39 | highbury | murble, we intend to try and resinstate all the old pages |
| 00:33.04 | murble | JD: what about pop3 and what edo you use for auth? |
| 00:33.13 | murble | does it just do pam/nss? |
| 00:33.15 | highbury | currently there are plans to move to a new content management system too |
| 00:33.29 | highbury | anyway nn folk |
| 00:33.31 | murble | nn |
| 00:33.35 | murble | content manglemnt. |
| 00:33.36 | JD | highbury: away from mambo? |
| 00:33.36 | murble | oh dear. |
| 00:33.51 | murble | atleast i hope we use a good one. |
| 00:33.59 | JD | murble: yes it does pop and atm I'm doing pam, but I may look into ldap in the future |
| 00:34.10 | highbury | mambo is the current direction, but I dislike the fact I can't use konqy |
| 00:34.28 | JD | highbury: awww wait until 3.2 and try again |
| 00:34.50 | highbury | how long jd? |
| 00:35.11 | JD | erm January ish |
| 00:35.36 | murble | JD: how is it better than courier-imap though? it seems to not do very flexiable auth |
| 00:35.52 | JD | murble: it is faster |
| 00:36.04 | JD | it is written by the same guy that wrote irssi |
| 00:36.09 | JD | it is good |
| 00:36.39 | murble | JD: so since i'm using foad tha tis the obvious choice :) |
| 00:36.57 | JD | using what? |
| 00:37.17 | Clyphox | sounds fun |
| 00:38.09 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 00:38.13 | JD | hi Leeds |
| 00:39.59 | murble | JD: the client i use for irc |
| 00:40.50 | JD | oh yes |
| 00:40.53 | JD | of course :) |
| 00:43.30 | murble | JD: what does your course at imperial start? |
| 00:43.40 | JD | AOct 2004 |
| 00:45.13 | murble | you had nice looking dna? |
| 00:45.14 | Leeds | you win... |
| 00:47.17 | Clyphox | JD: a pretty geneticist? |
| 00:47.39 | JD | Clyphox: no I like ugly geneticists |
| 00:48.30 | Clyphox | skinny guys with massive glasses... hmmm |
| 00:49.30 | Marios_ | does anybody kno where can I get documentation on Knoppix' internals? |
| 00:49.54 | murble | internals? |
| 00:50.09 | murble | like the cloop source orthe hardware reconginsion widget? |
| 00:50.26 | Leeds | what sort of internals... it's mainly just Debian, no? |
| 00:51.43 | Marios_ | murble << yes |
| 00:52.26 | Marios_ | in their website I found two books but they are written in German |
| 00:52.37 | murble | if you play with it, it is farily obvious how it works. |
| 00:53.13 | Marios_ | I liked the hardware recognition...it is incredible |
| 00:53.52 | murble | except for tfts which it tends to drive at too high a refresh rate. |
| 00:54.41 | Marios_ | I don't have tft ;) |
| 00:55.19 | Marios_ | so everything went very smooth when I run it in one of my PCs |
| 00:55.39 | Marios_ | later on I will try on the one with ATI 9200 |
| 01:00.59 | Marios_ | Leeds << since you work for a big company...do you know whether companies they look for certifications in IT ? |
| 01:03.13 | Leeds | we don't, AFAIK |
| 01:03.40 | Leeds | but remember - we're not employing IT people |
| 01:04.22 | Marios_ | then what? |
| 01:04.25 | Leeds | we're employing developers, testers, etc. - and the standard certifications don't help much |
| 01:04.49 | Marios_ | I see |
| 01:05.19 | Leeds | my job is very different from, say, a sysadmin... and I am one of the more admin-y people around my office... |
| 01:06.16 | Marios_ | I am just trying to find out what kind of skills companies look for |
| 01:07.54 | Leeds | for my company... it's things like software design, experience - ideally kernel experience - teamwork, focus |
| 01:08.48 | Marios_ | I see |
| 01:09.01 | Marios_ | I guess I waster my time doing MSc |
| 01:09.06 | Marios_ | wasted |
| 01:09.23 | Leeds | C, Makefiles, bit of shell... working in a commercial development environment with things like source code control |
| 01:09.47 | Leeds | what is your MSc? |
| 01:09.51 | Marios_ | Comp Science |
| 01:10.00 | Leeds | covering? |
| 01:10.20 | Marios_ | well here we don't have concetrations like in the UK |
| 01:10.31 | Marios_ | however you can see from the courses a student has taken |
| 01:10.45 | Leeds | you personally must cover certain subject areas though |
| 01:10.46 | murble | what do you mean by concentrations? |
| 01:11.15 | Marios_ | like MSc in Software Engineering or MSc in Comp Graphics or MSc in Comp Networking |
| 01:11.26 | Marios_ | we just have MSc in Comp Science |
| 01:11.30 | murble | Marios_: that is normally just a naming thing at the end. |
| 01:11.39 | Leeds | which is why I asked you what your course covered! |
| 01:11.54 | murble | I could have had a degree in software engineering or computer networks, but i choose the CS title |
| 01:12.05 | Marios_ | I see |
| 01:12.06 | murble | or intelligent systems i think. |
| 01:12.21 | Leeds | I have comp. sci. - information systems was a very similar course |
| 01:12.26 | murble | to get the softwer eingeering one i'd have had to just say my project counted towards that. |
| 01:12.54 | murble | there was sufficent choice you just had to have studided a minium creteria to get some of the specalist awards. |
| 01:12.59 | Leeds | I think the difference between cs and is for us was that there were different mandatory courses - but you could end up doing effectively the same degree |
| 01:13.08 | Leeds | mine is BSc... |
| 01:13.46 | Leeds | Marios_: so, what does your course cover? |
| 01:13.47 | Marios_ | I took courses likes Networking, GUI design, Operating Systems, Comp Architecture |
| 01:13.49 | murble | half my final year courses though were AIish |
| 01:14.18 | murble | Marios: what do you learn that you didn't in your first degree? |
| 01:14.36 | murble | s/did you/are you/ |
| 01:15.11 | Marios_ | like I didn't take security course before |
| 01:15.28 | Marios_ | or Comp Architecture of distributed systems |
| 01:15.58 | Marios_ | but most important is we are doing a project in JAVA, XML, XSLT for the National Research Foundation |
| 01:16.26 | Marios_ | next year I selected a projected another project for automating web based exams.... |
| 01:16.48 | murble | Marios_: you don't get to choose your own project? |
| 01:17.16 | Marios_ | well depends what the professors have in their ajenta |
| 01:17.30 | Marios_ | like the University now will have automated exams on the web |
| 01:17.56 | murble | Marios_: so you can trivally cheat?! |
| 01:18.02 | murble | and presuabbly they are multiple choice? |
| 01:18.31 | Marios_ | like a question bank for many courses, students will go ahead take the tests and there is gonna be automatic grading and stuff |
| 01:18.46 | Marios_ | but we have to use Java with XML...MySQL...XSLT |
| 01:19.00 | Marios_ | some digital signatures on the XML files |
| 01:19.13 | Leeds | ah, buzzword buzzword buzzword |
| 01:19.18 | murble | Leeds: i was thinking that... |
| 01:19.23 | JD | murble: xmlsec? |
| 01:19.35 | Marios_ | :) |
| 01:19.37 | murble | JD: buzzword buzzword... |
| 01:19.51 | murble | JD: bingo! |
| 01:20.25 | Marios_ | so it is not that a great project |
| 01:20.33 | Marios_ | but quite interesting |
| 01:20.56 | murble | was it an individual project? |
| 01:21.02 | JD | murble: wash your mount out with SOAP and water |
| 01:21.22 | murble | JD: SOAP is actually useful. |
| 01:21.25 | Marios_ | this one it will be individual |
| 01:21.33 | JD | murble: so it xmlsec |
| 01:21.36 | murble | but the last one for money saving reasons wasn't. |
| 01:21.41 | murble | JD: but i've never used it. |
| 01:21.51 | Marios_ | but the last one we made for the National Research Foundation was team project |
| 01:22.02 | murble | Marios_: in your first degree? |
| 01:22.04 | JD | murble: maybe you just PGP sign xml |
| 01:22.22 | Marios_ | first degree it was a project for a company |
| 01:22.30 | murble | JD: sounds worse than nominet :) |
| 01:22.38 | Marios_ | using Microsoft products |
| 01:22.56 | Marios_ | personality test analyzers |
| 01:23.17 | murble | never handed in anything wordproccesed in word ever. |
| 01:23.29 | JD | murble: I would be happy if nominet would accept PGP/MIME |
| 01:23.31 | Leeds | I used exceed on PCs occasionally when I couldn't get a decent Xterminal |
| 01:23.32 | murble | for that i used Lout and \Latex |
| 01:23.48 | murble | JD: so you could write out the form in email thing sign and send? |
| 01:24.06 | murble | JD: the current system is though dead easy to automate. |
| 01:24.09 | Marios_ | another project we did as team was a security audit for a small companu |
| 01:24.11 | Marios_ | company |
| 01:24.19 | Marios_ | that was interesting |
| 01:24.30 | murble | Marios_: it sounds very vocational |
| 01:24.37 | JD | murble: so I wouldn;t need to remember to :set pgp_create_traditional every time I want ot register a domain |
| 01:24.43 | murble | did you do an accademic stuff? |
| 01:24.47 | Leeds | is this a university or a recruitment place? |
| 01:25.13 | axelS-zZz | gn8 all :) |
| 01:25.15 | Leeds | uh, yeah... what murb said |
| 01:25.17 | murble | the only vocational thing on my course was the industrial placement, which i think was the idea.. |
| 01:25.24 | Leeds | night axelS-zZz |
| 01:25.34 | murble | JD: or renew! |
| 01:25.36 | Marios_ | what do you expect ? doing projects for algorithms complexity ?? |
| 01:25.53 | murble | JD: oh i assumed you used kde mua... |
| 01:25.53 | Marios_ | what kind of projects did you guys do? |
| 01:25.54 | murble | sorry |
| 01:26.39 | JD | murble: bah |
| 01:26.47 | murble | JD: blah.gz |
| 01:27.06 | Leeds | I did a project which pretty much consisted of playing with a backprop neural net trying various factors in teaching it to recognise faces |
| 01:27.24 | murble | Leeds: sounds fun. |
| 01:27.43 | Marios_ | cool |
| 01:27.44 | Leeds | I managed to teach it to be racist, sexist and to identify me with greater than 80% certainty as being a formula 1 car :-) |
| 01:28.38 | murble | a friend wrote an nice pretty gtk neural net toy program |
| 01:28.53 | Leeds | the racist/sexist thing was simply that I took faces from the comp. sci. student body to teach it... most of whom were white males |
| 01:28.54 | murble | i think it supposed recurrent networks as well as simple MLPs |
| 01:29.10 | Leeds | so I showed it a black face and it said "that's not human" |
| 01:29.26 | murble | Leeds: blame your trading set why don't you? |
| 01:29.31 | murble | s/trading/training/ |
| 01:29.38 | Leeds | I tweaked the set a bit after that :-) |
| 01:29.58 | murble | did you look at the vision work of people like fukushima(sp?) etc? |
| 01:30.20 | Leeds | I used a nn toolkit which had a nice front-end, a C preprocessor to build the network and so on... which had cost thousands of dollars until they GPLed it a few weeks before I started :-) |
| 01:30.24 | murble | or didn't you want to spend years building a very complete network ? |
| 01:30.49 | murble | Leeds: sounds toomuch like cheating to me :) |
| 01:31.09 | Leeds | murble: remember that this was an undergrad project and 6 years ago... and I haven't kept up with stuff... there was one bloke at Imperial whose stuff I looked at - he was into recognising expressions (happy, sad, etc.) |
| 01:31.55 | murble | Leeds: sorry i looked at this 4 years ago so have a clear 2 year lead :) |
| 01:32.13 | Leeds | well, it meant that I could experiment with the network, rather than with coding it all up - higher level 'research' |
| 01:33.08 | Leeds | we didn't do that |
| 01:33.28 | murble | Leeds: we didn't have to, i could have used excel and about 20000 rows... |
| 01:33.39 | Leeds | there is (was?) a quite active biocomputing cross-discipline group at Liverpool, so a lot of the lecturers were quite into Alife and stuff |
| 01:33.40 | murble | ended up using gnuplot for the graphs because i didn't know better. |
| 01:34.15 | Marios_ | what colleges did you guys go? |
| 01:34.31 | Leeds | Marios_: Liverpool Uni |
| 01:34.39 | Marios_ | cool |
| 01:34.44 | Leeds | yes :-) |
| 01:34.47 | murble | hatfield poly, utterly hopeless! |
| 01:34.57 | murble | s/utterly hopeless/university of hertfordshire/ |
| 01:35.00 | Marios_ | they are more research oriented I guess |
| 01:35.18 | murble | Marios_: aren't universties supposed to be research oriented instititutions? |
| 01:35.21 | Leeds | I think some of my collegues went to Hatfield, back when it was one of the first places in the country to actually teach practical computer science |
| 01:36.00 | Marios_ | well here most of the universities do both |
| 01:36.03 | Leeds | as opposed to information science and stuff like that |
| 01:36.44 | Marios_ | we have companies every coming in and give guidelines of what they mostly use |
| 01:36.55 | murble | Marios: ouch! |
| 01:36.56 | Marios_ | every year |
| 01:37.14 | murble | so you didn't get to learn miranda or eiffel or ada? |
| 01:37.22 | Leeds | well... Liverpool is very much in HPs pocket... |
| 01:37.35 | Leeds | Ada was our main teaching language... and we did a little Miranda |
| 01:37.40 | Marios_ | only Lisp |
| 01:37.59 | Marios_ | here we did stuff like C, C++, Java, VB |
| 01:37.59 | murble | Marios: what did you use for formal nots? |
| 01:38.24 | Leeds | learning Ada at Uni led to me being offered a job doing combat aircraft avionics :-) |
| 01:38.29 | murble | I think i did one week of using delph... |
| 01:38.56 | Leeds | ugh... |
| 01:38.59 | murble | sorry 2, and i passed the practicle knowing pascal and searching through menues... |
| 01:39.10 | murble | Leeds: they were teaching the HND students taht. |
| 01:39.16 | murble | so they had the notes spare :) |
| 01:39.17 | Leeds | ah, well... |
| 01:39.57 | Leeds | I picked up a couple of good sets of notes - there was a community-computing thing based at Liverpool called Connect - got a good booklet on HTML (back when HTML was new) and another on Motif |
| 01:39.59 | murble | and they did it in 2 sections one before lunch one after, and those after they gave the same problem... |
| 01:40.41 | murble | the nice thing about university is having lots of spare time to explore whatever you want. |
| 01:40.56 | Leeds | oh sure |
| 01:41.11 | Leeds | my main thing out of it was Linux :-) |
| 01:41.14 | murble | for some people this was what channels they could get on ntl and how much beer they could drink. |
| 01:41.27 | murble | Leeds: oh, i started on linux before uni :) |
| 01:41.28 | Marios_ | hahaahaahha |
| 01:41.37 | Leeds | the course was all on HPUX, and I got a 'shareware' CD with an early Linux system on it - and it seemed like a good idea at the time |
| 01:41.44 | Leeds | remember that this was 1995, guys :-) |
| 01:42.02 | Marios_ | since when do you have Internet in UK ? |
| 01:42.21 | murble | since all the machiens were diskless 486s with 8mb of ram.. |
| 01:42.24 | Leeds | the theory was that Linux was sort of Unix, so since I needed to use Unix for my course, having Linux on my PC would help |
| 01:42.27 | murble | runing win3.11 |
| 01:42.37 | Leeds | Marios_: some time in the late 1970s I think |
| 01:42.46 | murble | Leeds: I took a machine already running slackware 3 to uni :) |
| 01:42.51 | murble | and i still have it now! |
| 01:42.55 | Marios_ | sweet |
| 01:43.37 | Leeds | I downloaded slackware (3, maybe - 1.2.13 kernel) one floppy at a time onto Uni PCs running a DOS-based system with no local storage - so I was downloading from Sunsite.ic.ac.uk over JANET directly to floppy drives :-) |
| 01:43.48 | Leeds | I had Fidomail first... |
| 01:44.02 | murble | Leeds: oh i abused the demon account i got the company i was doing a summer job at to get to download slackware :) |
| 01:44.31 | Leeds | the first 'internet e-mail' I remember getting was for pre-registering for the BBC Networking Club - their proto-ISP |
| 01:44.34 | murble | i also setup a uucp network which was fun :) |
| 01:44.44 | Leeds | anyway... I need to go bed-way |
| 01:44.45 | murble | oh bbcnc.org! |
| 01:44.53 | Leeds | yup |
| 01:45.01 | murble | that was the bbc main website for ages |
| 01:45.05 | Leeds | I signed up before it opened |
| 01:45.14 | murble | i got a demon account. |
| 01:45.27 | murble | that i've only just closed down. |
| 01:45.38 | Leeds | I got... someone else's... PCUG account |
| 01:45.45 | Leeds | or whatever it was called |
| 01:46.03 | murble | did you ever use the freebie demon thing with PCW? |
| 01:46.15 | murble | think that was about '92 |
| 01:46.21 | murble | or was it later |
| 01:46.21 | *** join/#gllug Leeds_mac (~Leeds_mac@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 01:47.22 | Leeds_mac | nope - I didn't use Demon until a few years ago when I got ISDN from work |
| 01:47.49 | murble | as in sco work? |
| 01:48.03 | Leeds_mac | nope, after that |
| 01:49.13 | Leeds_mac | we actually had an 0800 dial-in to SCO :-) |
| 01:49.14 | murble | I'm still waiting for them to finally wind themselvs up here. |
| 01:49.18 | murble | Leeds: cool :) |
| 01:49.36 | murble | no wonder they lost money! |
| 01:49.42 | murble | :) |
| 01:49.58 | Leeds_mac | well... it was fo work use only, but no-one looked at it that carefully |
| 01:53.53 | Leeds_mac | I was sharing a house with other SCO people and we did have a PC controlling access with locking on the line and all... |
| 01:58.48 | Marios_ | hehehhe |
| 01:58.52 | Marios_ | so what else ? |
| 01:59.00 | Leeds_mac | hmm? |
| 01:59.27 | Marios_ | you prefer your job in Sun or in SCO ? |
| 01:59.32 | Leeds_mac | Sun |
| 01:59.39 | murble | oh yes my todo list, get a job, get money from ex boss |
| 01:59.53 | murble | read library books. |
| 01:59.57 | Marios_ | murble << u don't have a job ? |
| 02:00.15 | murble | Leeds_mac: but only becuase you get discount apple kit :) |
| 02:00.32 | Leeds_mac | that is one of the many reasons, yes :-) |
| 02:03.57 | Leeds_mac | I was talking to my sister the other week, just after she was offered - and took - a temp job for 6 months at LWT... she was really proud that she could now say "yes, I work in the media - I work for a TV company" - because to her, that is pretty much the peak of the industry she wants to work in - she sees it as the start of something... and I'm already there! I'm doing kernel work on Solaris - how cool is that? :-) |
| 02:06.44 | Marios_ | since this is what you like ;) |
| 02:08.19 | Leeds_mac | but I really don't think there are many more prestigous jobs in the commercial programming world |
| 02:08.46 | Marios_ | mayb |
| 02:09.03 | Marios_ | I just need a computer programming job |
| 02:09.14 | murble | Marios_: do you know perl? |
| 02:09.15 | Marios_ | I don't mind ;) |
| 02:09.22 | Marios_ | murble << yeah |
| 02:09.37 | murble | have you done web/perl random dbi stuff? |
| 02:09.47 | Leeds_mac | bah |
| 02:10.09 | murble | Leeds_mac: you can get jobs now doing that, don't dis it too badly, oh solaris kernel enginneer, you! |
| 02:10.23 | murble | Leeds: anyway are you still also working on doing the solaris freeware stuff? |
| 02:10.33 | Leeds_mac | nope |
| 02:10.40 | Marios_ | yeah I used Perl for the web |
| 02:10.46 | Marios_ | but I prefer PHP |
| 02:10.52 | Marios_ | LAMP |
| 02:10.56 | Leeds_mac | moved onto more serious stuff now |
| 02:10.59 | murble | P is for Perl. |
| 02:11.06 | Marios_ | lol |
| 02:11.08 | Leeds_mac | Python! |
| 02:11.09 | Marios_ | nopes |
| 02:11.10 | murble | PHP ~= Perl for Hopeless Programmers |
| 02:11.12 | Marios_ | is for PHP |
| 02:11.21 | Leeds_mac | um... |
| 02:11.33 | murble | Marios_: actually it is for either, but we won't argue! |
| 02:11.43 | Marios_ | well better know all of them...who knows one day |
| 02:12.12 | murble | Marios_: well i've had to fix things written in PHP, and have not found it very pleasnt. |
| 02:12.17 | murble | especailly the scope thing. |
| 02:12.27 | murble | anyway i should bed. |
| 02:12.45 | Leeds_mac | thing is... I do some Python at work... other people do shell, others do Java... they're considered misc. skills... |
| 02:13.05 | Marios_ | you mean they are not serious skills ? |
| 02:13.13 | Leeds_mac | right |
| 02:13.22 | Leeds_mac | no-one does Perl, strangely :-) |
| 02:13.24 | Marios_ | what are the serious skills then? |
| 02:13.31 | Leeds_mac | in my team... |
| 02:13.46 | murble | i bet is is shouting louder than Leeds :) |
| 02:14.51 | Marios_ | Leeds << !!! |
| 02:15.32 | Leeds_mac | yup... |
| 02:15.56 | Leeds_mac | nah, it's C, make, kernel and build debugging... industry and community knowledge and contacts |
| 02:16.22 | Marios_ | that's it ? |
| 02:16.33 | Leeds_mac | technical skills |
| 02:16.39 | Marios_ | I didn't say this is not serious skill...but there are other as well |
| 02:16.45 | Leeds_mac | like? |
| 02:16.58 | Marios_ | can you say Java is not serious ? |
| 02:17.23 | Leeds_mac | Java is not serious for Solarie engineering |
| 02:17.41 | Leeds_mac | or even Solaris :-) |
| 02:17.47 | Marios_ | of course it is not serious for your current job |
| 02:18.00 | Marios_ | but you can't say is not a serious skill right ? |
| 02:18.03 | Leeds_mac | I am talking about my team, my work |
| 02:18.09 | Marios_ | ohh I see |
| 02:18.15 | Marios_ | I was talking in general |
| 02:18.22 | Leeds_mac | Java is a miscellaneous skill for my work... |
| 02:18.29 | Marios_ | of course |
| 02:18.38 | Leeds_mac | I will actually need some soon... so I'll learn what I need and that will do |
| 02:18.58 | Marios_ | do you suggest any good books for your skills ? I like collecting and reading books |
| 02:19.16 | Marios_ | I would love to hear your suggestions. |
| 02:19.17 | Leeds_mac | nope, not really... a good C book is useful |
| 02:19.29 | Leeds_mac | otherwise, it's really reading man pages, looking at existing code and so on... |
| 02:19.50 | Marios_ | I just purchased the Understand the Linux kernel 2.4 |
| 02:19.55 | Leeds_mac | you know lwn.net and kernel traffic? |
| 02:20.54 | Marios_ | the newsletter ? |
| 02:21.29 | Leeds_mac | yes, two of them |
| 02:21.35 | Marios_ | yeah |
| 02:21.46 | Leeds_mac | do you read any of them? |
| 02:21.54 | Marios_ | some of them |
| 02:21.56 | Marios_ | not all |
| 02:22.24 | Leeds_mac | a huge amount of what I know I simply got by reading lwn for years and kt some of the time |
| 02:23.16 | Leeds_mac | lwn is essential for me to do my job |
| 02:23.44 | Marios_ | is it a good idea for example...just focus in a small area (small in the sense not many jobs) or have a broader number of skills |
| 02:24.52 | Leeds_mac | it depends on what you want, I think |
| 02:25.20 | Marios_ | at this point I just need a job... |
| 02:25.30 | Marios_ | after some time I can just focus in one area |
| 02:25.39 | Marios_ | this is what I believe |
| 02:25.47 | Leeds_mac | good plan :=) |
| 02:26.02 | Leeds_mac | but already you can go for some jobs and not others |
| 02:26.51 | Marios_ | like? |
| 02:26.52 | Leeds_mac | one serious piece of advice - get some 'real-world' work done - be it open source, charity, or whatever |
| 02:27.02 | Leeds_mac | outside of the Uni |
| 02:27.39 | Marios_ | I thought making a project for National Foundation of Research could help a bit |
| 02:27.40 | Leeds_mac | well - if you don't know Unix and C (as a developer of, not on), you couldn't apply for a job in Solaris engineering, for example |
| 02:28.16 | Marios_ | the one you said buzzwords |
| 02:28.18 | Marios_ | ;) |
| 02:28.29 | Leeds_mac | but, if you were doing your course and also doing Linux kernel stuff, then maybe you could apply because you would be seen to have 'kernel experience' |
| 02:29.01 | Leeds_mac | we hired people earlier this year, and we considered that even if a person had no 'commercial' experience, 'non-commercial' was pretty much as good |
| 02:29.30 | Marios_ | of course it is good |
| 02:29.48 | Leeds_mac | I'm still talking about my work... my group... I really don't know what the Java/XML/foo/bar/buzzword world is like |
| 02:29.57 | Marios_ | heheheehe |
| 02:30.39 | Leeds_mac | the point is that if the job spec says 2 year's kernel experience, and you'd just finished uni - if you'd worked on the Linux kernel (or one of the BSDs) for 2 years, that would count - otherwise your CV (resume) would just go straight in the bin |
| 02:31.26 | Marios_ | this applies to your work again |
| 02:31.38 | Marios_ | cause I have like Java experience for two years now |
| 02:31.55 | Marios_ | I guess that could count as non-commercial experience |
| 02:32.08 | Marios_ | even if it was for a company I did it free of charge |
| 02:32.14 | Marios_ | just to gain experience |
| 02:32.38 | Marios_ | so I believe what you say is right and it applies in almost all skills |
| 02:32.50 | Leeds_mac | so something different... over the past couple of years, I've been doing some charity work - working with a couple of my friends on the website and other stuff for the big annual conference, mainly - online booking, PDA support, WAP support (this year) and so on... this year, we're heading for $500,000 or so taken online for the conference... |
| 02:33.22 | Leeds_mac | I would expect that work to count if, in future, I applied for a job doing web stuff... not likely to happen, since I don't really like doing web stuff, but still |
| 02:33.31 | Leeds_mac | ibot change 500000 usd to gbp |
| 02:33.48 | Leeds_mac | yeah, we're nearly there |
| 02:34.26 | Marios_ | great |
| 02:34.39 | Leeds_mac | but then there's completely different stuff... |
| 02:34.46 | Marios_ | I see |
| 02:35.47 | Leeds_mac | for example, I have installed and provided a web calendar and wiki for my team... the wiki is very popular - the calendar less so... that's the sort of thing which makes you stand out, I think... and they're both things I learnt in my spare time for my own use - but they are skills which transfer |
| 02:36.35 | Marios_ | you are absolutely right |
| 02:36.52 | Leeds_mac | anyway... I do need to sleep... work in the morning :-) |
| 02:37.03 | Marios_ | oh God...what time is it there? |
| 02:37.07 | Leeds_mac | 0247 |
| 02:37.12 | Leeds_mac | 0237 |
| 02:37.58 | Leeds_mac | I'll see you around... |
| 02:38.02 | Leeds_mac | g'night :-) |
| 02:38.03 | Marios_ | c ya tomorrow |
| 02:38.07 | Marios_ | sweet dreams |
| 02:38.13 | Leeds_mac | cheers |
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| 08:28.44 | axelS | g'morning |
| 08:28.57 | JD | hi |
| 08:29.14 | JD | 10 |
| 08:29.39 | axelS | JD: ten what? :) |
| 08:29.47 | JD | can't type |
| 08:29.54 | axelS | hehe |
| 08:32.06 | JD | don't drink tea |
| 08:32.10 | JD | but thank you |
| 11:05.36 | *** join/#gllug ar (~ar@bob.nooneishere.co.uk) |
| 11:06.40 | ar | hi |
| 11:33.38 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~rc112576@beryllium.eu.sun.com) |
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| 13:11.12 | Leeds | must... resist... posting "oh, you rebuilt it then" comment on Slashdot |
| 13:11.29 | Leeds | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=86596&cid=7527313 |
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| 13:34.24 | murble | moin |
| 13:34.31 | jason_ukfsn | hey murble |
| 13:40.46 | Xiaoqi | hihi# |
| 13:48.10 | Leeds | bah... just got an e-mail offering me free vodka - and it's real, not spam! |
| 13:48.24 | jason_ukfsn | so what's the catch? |
| 13:48.30 | Leeds | it's in Leeds :-( |
| 13:48.40 | jason_ukfsn | So you've already drunk it? |
| 13:49.05 | jason_ukfsn | it's cruel to taunt us like that! |
| 13:49.06 | Leeds | um, no... Leeds the city |
| 14:05.37 | ar | a few beers do wonders for a cold :) |
| 14:11.18 | jason_ukfsn | ar: I've tried beer with a cold and I just get very ill. Brandy or whiskey in a coffee on the other hand ... |
| 14:11.33 | jason_ukfsn | As it is I'm stuck on lots of lemsip just to be able to breath |
| 14:12.45 | ar | hmm, sounds like you got it bad |
| 14:13.06 | ar | i have to admit a few bitters tended to settle my cold for a time |
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| 15:22.35 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (Ananana@wlib056.wmlib.wmich.edu) |
| 15:27.22 | ar | hi Marios |
| 15:27.30 | Marios_ | hey |
| 15:28.15 | Marios_ | what's up? |
| 15:28.40 | ar | not much - just packing for a weekend away walking in the Yorkshire Dales |
| 15:28.57 | murble | cool |
| 15:29.09 | murble | ar: don't forget lots of waterproof clothing... |
| 15:29.21 | ar | should be nice - i haven't been walking for at least 3 weeks :/ |
| 15:29.28 | ar | don't worry - i'm fully kitted out |
| 15:30.00 | murble | I last went for a decent walk last sunday |
| 15:30.07 | ar | where did you go? |
| 15:31.18 | murble | just arround a village in the chilterns about 2 miles south of stokenchurch |
| 15:31.49 | murble | (http://www.yuri.org.uk/~murble/quartz-copy/18-11-2003/Sunday%20afternoon/ |
| 15:31.51 | murble | ) |
| 15:31.57 | ar | nice |
| 15:32.03 | murble | and totally failed to get a good photo of any red kites |
| 15:32.36 | Marios_ | nice photos |
| 15:33.13 | ar | what webserver is that? |
| 15:36.36 | Marios_ | I like the photos from the install-fest |
| 15:36.45 | Leeds | hey Marios_ |
| 15:37.14 | *** join/#gllug Clyphox (~starkfami@64.246.28.105) |
| 15:38.47 | Marios_ | Hello Leeds |
| 15:38.54 | Marios_ | how is it going? |
| 15:39.00 | Leeds | not too bad... you? |
| 15:39.13 | Marios_ | just work |
| 15:39.51 | Leeds | yeah, that |
| 15:39.52 | Marios_ | weekend is in the corner |
| 15:40.52 | Marios_ | probably I will to Chicago and visit the new Apple store |
| 15:44.13 | Leeds | cool :-) |
| 15:44.30 | Marios_ | are you going anywhere? |
| 15:47.08 | Leeds | not this weekend, no... |
| 15:47.13 | Leeds | next week in Paris though :-) |
| 15:49.45 | Marios_ | oh yeah you told me |
| 15:50.03 | Marios_ | God that ticket I booked leaves from Waterloo 6:26 |
| 15:50.24 | Marios_ | in the morning...I don't know who is gonna wake up that early |
| 15:51.41 | Leeds | oops |
| 15:54.58 | *** join/#gllug Clyphox_ (~clyphox@82-35-127-97.cable.ubr01.enfi.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 16:02.32 | ar | bye all |
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| 17:09.42 | *** join/#gllug pie (~will@linguaphone.plus.com) |
| 18:15.11 | *** join/#gllug entity (~pie@82-68-20-246.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 18:18.59 | entity | ibot leeds? |
| 18:19.01 | | from memory, leeds is a bloke called Richard in the UK or spending too much time playing with expensive electronic toys or a genius or whatever you want him to be, or nekkid, or a place in the norf, or a rubbish footie team |
| 18:19.48 | Leeds | ? |
| 18:46.25 | *** join/#gllug cupis (~paul@195.137.116.73) |
| 18:46.58 | entity | 'lo |
| 19:32.37 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 19:43.21 | *** join/#gllug JonB (~jon@kg194.kollegiegaarden.dk) |
| 19:51.58 | *** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@host-212-158-207-148.bulldogdsl.com) |
| 19:52.49 | JonB | hey leeds |
| 19:53.07 | Leeds | evening |
| 19:53.13 | JD | hi |
| 19:54.10 | Clyphox | Back :-) |
| 20:34.27 | Wethrin | Evening |
| 20:35.16 | JonB | Wethrin: evening |
| 20:36.04 | Wethrin | Hi |
| 20:36.48 | JD | hi Wethrin |
| 20:53.22 | Wethrin | EMORETHAN1000EMAILS |
| 20:53.43 | murble | how? |
| 20:53.54 | JonB | Wethrin: and they are ALL spam mails |
| 20:54.34 | Wethrin | Nope |
| 20:54.44 | Wethrin | murble: Three days of not reading |
| 20:58.26 | JD | Wethrin: well that will teach you |
| 20:59.28 | Wethrin | Teach me what? :) |
| 21:00.00 | Wethrin | Grrr. Question that we have to hand in for our programming coursework will require me to write quite a bit of documentarisation |
| 21:01.42 | JD | Wethrin: not reading emails |
| 21:02.06 | Wethrin | Yes, well... |
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| 21:23.04 | JD | hmmm everyone seems ot be out |
| 21:23.17 | Wethrin | I'm only out of it |
| 21:24.29 | JD | oh |
| 21:26.25 | JonB | JD: it is friday evening |
| 21:26.42 | JD | JonB: thank you |
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| 21:29.05 | Wethrin | I need to configure $newserver |
| 21:29.21 | JD | hmmm |
| 21:30.12 | Wethrin | But I almost can't be bothered to do it |
| 21:30.38 | Wethrin | Stay on IRC, then |
| 21:30.54 | JonB | Wethrin: he cant be bothered to stay either |
| 21:31.25 | JD | JonB: you don't know me do you? |
| 21:32.23 | JonB | JD: no i dont think so, why? |
| 21:32.52 | JD | JonB: then you don't know how much I am on irc |
| 21:34.03 | JonB | JD: no, how much are you on irc ? |
| 21:34.03 | JD | JonB: enough |
| 21:34.16 | Wethrin | Time for some configuratory fun |
| 21:36.00 | *** join/#gllug morsing (~morsing@morsing.plus.com) |
| 21:36.08 | JonB | morsing: there you are :) |
| 21:36.14 | morsing | Yup. |
| 21:36.23 | Wethrin | Hi morsing |
| 21:36.33 | morsing | Hi Dan. What's up? |
| 21:36.48 | Wethrin | Not much. Tired, but need to get some server configuration done |
| 21:36.55 | eye69 | Hiya morsing |
| 21:37.22 | morsing | Magnus :-) Where have you been the last few times? |
| 21:37.39 | eye69 | Like...away.. |
| 21:38.10 | morsing | Wethrin: Me too. Trying to CVSup my BSD server. |
| 21:38.43 | Wethrin | Cool :) |
| 21:39.19 | morsing | Yeah, but make world takes more than three hours. |
| 21:39.31 | eye69 | It looks like I'm moving this weekend, or at least partially |
| 21:40.05 | morsing | Where to? Did you get paid and what about a new job? |
| 21:41.24 | eye69 | Me and a mate from work are getting a flat in Brentwood (much more accessible) |
| 21:42.02 | morsing | And right next to IKEA :-D |
| 21:42.02 | eye69 | Same cost as my current one, and it's a really nice flat, with washer/dryer, dishwasher, fully fitted kitchen... |
| 21:42.21 | Wethrin | nice :) |
| 21:42.24 | eye69 | About 5 minutes walk from Brentwood station |
| 21:43.12 | morsing | Sorry, can I just introduce you to my guest, JonB, who's from the Danish LUG (SSLUG). |
| 21:43.59 | JonB | morsing: i was here yesterday talking to people |
| 21:44.06 | eye69 | Hi JonB |
| 21:44.09 | morsing | Nice :-) |
| 21:44.19 | JonB | hey eye69 |
| 21:44.26 | JonB | morsing: and you seem to like irc |
| 21:44.47 | morsing | Nope |
| 21:45.00 | morsing | Only with people I know anyway :-) |
| 21:49.01 | morsing | Greg, what's the link to the RMS pictures? |
| 21:51.15 | morsing | Jon, what are you up to? Figured out how I cracked your vserver yet :-) |
| 21:51.36 | JonB | morsing: no, i havent even tried |
| 21:51.45 | JonB | morsing: i asked you how you did it |
| 22:04.30 | morsing | eye69, are you still interested in the tape drive? |
| 22:04.53 | eye69 | morsing: Maybe, I'll have to talk to my boss |
| 22:05.18 | morsing | Ok, my colleague is a bit slow and he insist on testing in first. |
| 22:06.49 | JonB | morsing: what was it you did to the vserver? |
| 22:06.57 | eye69 | He's had quite some time to do that, hasn't he? :) |
| 22:07.00 | morsing | Sorry Jon, I don't know how you do that. (Read your mail) |
| 22:07.47 | morsing | Well, Jon tried to convince me it wasn't a security problem that vserver used the same |
| 22:07.54 | morsing | ip address on all servers. |
| 22:08.47 | JonB | morsing: yes? and i'd like to know what the problem is |
| 22:09.20 | JonB | morsing: i havent gotten any explination in email |
| 22:09.34 | morsing | No, you got a question |
| 22:09.53 | JonB | morsing: can you focus on me for a while ? |
| 22:25.33 | *** part/#gllug morsing (~morsing@morsing.plus.com) |
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| 22:45.37 | Wethrin | Hi steve |
| 22:45.49 | highbury | hi Dan |
| 22:49.48 | Wethrin | Hm. |
| 22:50.26 | Wethrin | I'm trying to get something so that when a user logs in, the system will automatically chroot him to his home directory, and run sash |
| 23:01.17 | *** join/#gllug Marios_ (~mkoumide@24.231.225.197) |
| 23:06.00 | Wethrin | Can anyone recommend a (resonable) statically-linked text editor? |
| 23:07.32 | Marios_ | why do you need a statically linked one? |
| 23:07.49 | Wethrin | Because I'm only providing a statically linked shell (sash) for users |
| 23:08.11 | Marios_ | ohhh |
| 23:29.35 | *** join/#gllug simon7809 (~simon@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 23:34.46 | JD | Wethrin: can you not statically link nano/nvi/ae/emacs |
| 23:37.44 | simon7809 | Hi everyone.... I have a problem :-( |
| 23:38.07 | Marios_ | Hello Simon |
| 23:38.21 | simon7809 | I'm trying to get vsftpd to authenticate users against pam-ldap. Hi Marios |
| 23:38.22 | JD | simon7809: omst of us have a problem |
| 23:38.34 | JD | we are here for a start |
| 23:38.36 | simon7809 | Don't worry it isn't a deep personal problem |
| 23:39.16 | simon7809 | I've got half an eye on the Debian chat area as well |
| 23:39.29 | simon7809 | apparently debian.org was defaced today :-( |
| 23:39.47 | Wethrin | JD: Probably if I hacked around the Makefiles enough |
| 23:39.59 | Wethrin | I'll just copy the necessary libraries across |
| 23:40.07 | JD | Wethrin: not much is needed |
| 23:40.12 | agk | has anyone said what the cause of the debian problem was? |
| 23:40.28 | JD | and presumably ./configure --enable-static --disable-shared is what you are after |
| 23:40.28 | murble | you know the rumour? |
| 23:40.30 | simon7809 | Compromised server resulting in the WWW page being defaced |
| 23:40.37 | JD | agk: what problem? |
| 23:40.42 | JD | oh |
| 23:40.43 | Wethrin | JD: I know |
| 23:40.47 | agk | ie why was it compromised? |
| 23:40.58 | simon7809 | i was trying to apt against security.debian.org and it was unavailable |
| 23:41.17 | agk | running unpatched software or an exploit that we don't have a patch for yet? |
| 23:41.20 | murble | simon7809: don't do that, it offered to upgrade some stuff for me this morning, i declined. |
| 23:41.43 | murble | agk: chiark was also compromised. |
| 23:42.00 | murble | JD: or debian-announce.. |
| 23:42.01 | JD | agk: it is possible that one of the servers was not up to date |
| 23:42.06 | JD | murble: oh |
| 23:42.25 | agk | what was wrong on chiark? |
| 23:42.49 | JD | murble: I never got anything to debian-announce |
| 23:43.22 | murble | agk: it had exactly the same oops as master.debian.org yesterday |
| 23:43.26 | murble | in sys_execve |
| 23:43.54 | JD | when was this? |
| 23:44.08 | murble | yesterday |
| 23:45.32 | agk | from what process? |
| 23:46.01 | murble | I don't know. |
| 23:46.25 | agk | so an oops that people aren't saying which process caused it? |
| 23:46.28 | JD | debian-announce email went out at 11:46 today |
| 23:46.59 | agk | ie an unpatched bug |
| 23:47.15 | JD | agk: all the debian servers share a passwd db |
| 23:47.37 | JD | so if one gets hacked then they are al vunerable aiui |
| 23:48.00 | agk | but that doesn't include chiark surely? |
| 23:48.01 | JD | but it may not be |
| 23:48.09 | JD | no chiark would be different |
| 23:48.16 | agk | and is the bkbits/cvs thing related? |
| 23:48.37 | JD | but it is possible that some people share users/passwd between debian and chiark accounts |
| 23:48.44 | JD | I dobt it |
| 23:49.01 | JD | the kernel backdoor was different aiui |
| 23:50.30 | murble | JD: have you seen anything to debian-devel since 17:00 today? |
| 23:50.35 | JD | murble: no |
| 23:50.50 | JD | lists.d.o is presumably down |
| 23:53.43 | agk | "all 4 boxes were running recent kernels with all known (Debian) security patches applied :(" |
| 23:54.58 | *** join/#gllug sm (~simon@host81-130-55-97.in-addr.btopenworld.com) |
| 23:56.36 | sm | . |
| 23:57.53 | agk | so fsf.org bkbits & now debian hacked and ppl don't know how |