irclog2html for #gllug on 20030626

`06:27.22`	`*** join/#gllug new2unix (~new2unix@dsl-217-155-250-141.zen.co.uk)`
`07:12.26`	`*** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@host217-36-6-181.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`07:12.39`	`zachary`	`moin`
`07:18.00`	`murb`	`moin moin`
`07:43.56`	`Axel`	`moin :)`
`07:44.16`	`Axel`	`darn... quarter to nine already :(`
`07:44.20`	`Axel`	`cu l8rs`
`08:26.11`	`*** join/#gllug SPQR (~a4266@194.106.34.53)`
`08:27.40`	`*** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@host217-36-6-181.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`08:31.29`	`SPQR`	`grr morning`
`08:33.20`	`SPQR`	`can anye please tell me what process this is suppost to be? I did ps ax and got a whole lot of them: 5 ? Z 0:00 [sh <defunct>]`
`08:35.08`	`chrisa`	`it's a sh process that exited, but whose parent process hasn't yet noticed it and done anything about it.`
`08:38.13`	`SPQR`	`anyway I can trace the progran and/or stop the processes?`
`08:38.39`	`SPQR`	`killing the indevidual processes didn't help :(`
`08:38.42`	`chrisa`	`no, there's no actual process.`
`08:39.03`	`chrisa`	`it's just a placeholder entry in the process table, so the parent process can get its child's exit status`
`08:39.25`	`SPQR`	`ok, I think I follow`
`08:39.42`	`chrisa`	`the Z is for 'zombie'.`
`08:40.05`	`SPQR`	`does that mean the parent process has dies or isn't workingproperly, hence the zombies?`
`08:40.18`	`chrisa`	`it means the parent process isn't calling wait(2).`
`08:40.44`	`chrisa`	`if the parent goes away, then the child gets reparented to init, which calls wait on any children it gets.`
`08:41.08`	`chrisa`	`what you need to do is find out what process is spawning a shell and not clearing up`
`08:41.20`	`chrisa`	`unfortunately you can't just blow zombies away`
`08:41.27`	`SPQR`	`grrr.`
`08:42.05`	`chrisa`	`it doesn't matter, until you have so many that your process table fills up.`
`08:42.09`	`chrisa`	`but it is untidy...`
`08:42.21`	`SPQR`	`any easy ways to find the process doing it? still doesn't know enough about linux`
`08:42.40`	`SPQR`	`but fun :D`
`08:42.51`	`chrisa`	`see if any of your zombies have a parent process ID listed in ps`
`08:43.45`	`SPQR`	`5135 pts/2 00:00:00 bash`
`08:43.45`	`SPQR`	`<PROTECTED>`
`08:43.52`	`SPQR`	`those are the only 2 running in ps`
`08:44.01`	`chrisa`	`oh sorry, 'ps ax'`
`08:44.45`	`SPQR`	`ok, how do I tell what the parent is?`
`08:45.19`	`chrisa`	`hmm. not enough coffee yet... try 'ps -ef' and look in the PPID column ....`
`08:45.30`	`SPQR`	`oklies`
`08:45.42`	`SPQR`	`I haven't had my morning coffee yet :(`
`08:47.02`	`SPQR`	`its looks like fetchmail is the bad parent here. It has the same PID as the zombies PPID`
`08:47.16`	`chrisa`	`heh. fetchmail...`
`08:47.51`	`murb`	`does anyone?`
`08:48.02`	`chrisa`	`ESR?`
`08:48.52`	`SPQR`	`hehe`
`08:48.52`	`chrisa`	`for maximum effect, just patch some comments or some whitespace`
`08:49.22`	`SPQR`	`ok, next thing. How do I stop fetchmail from spawning more zombies? Just restart it?`
`08:49.30`	`murb`	`chrisa: having my name in the fetchmail changelog would be worse than having an MCSE`
`08:49.36`	`SPQR`	`lol`
`08:49.38`	`murb`	`(employment wise)`
`08:49.44`	`murb`	`you wouldn't be able to go out in public.`
`08:50.07`	`chrisa`	`SPQR: is it running as a daemon?`
`08:50.20`	`SPQR`	`I think the fetchmail changelog is more like a 'Most wanted' list ;) to be shot on sight`
`08:50.35`	`SPQR`	`fetchmail -f /etc/fetchmailrc -L /var/log/fetchmail.log`
`08:50.35`	`murb`	`how ffs, he lists howmany people are on his fiends list in the changelog for each entry`
`08:50.42`	`SPQR`	`thats the command we're using for it`
`08:51.03`	`SPQR`	`0.o`
`08:51.13`	`chrisa`	`i think you can specify daemon-or-not in the conf file too`
`08:51.49`	`SPQR`	`yup, its running as daemon`
`08:52.42`	`chrisa`	`http://www-cdf.fnal.gov/offline/UNIX_Concepts/concepts.zombies.txt # rather better explanation of zombies`
`08:52.55`	`chrisa`	`SPQR: if you can run it out of cron, do so`
`08:53.14`	`chrisa`	`then it won't get chance to hang around, and the system will be able to clear up after it`
`08:53.50`	`SPQR`	`hmm... I think we can do that. What I want to know is why its doing this now? Its been working fine for a while...`
`08:54.12`	`SPQR`	`though my boss was doing kernel recompiles yesterday?`
`08:55.37`	`chrisa`	`it's possible that a kernel change is causing fetchmail to break...`
`08:56.42`	`SPQR`	`if I put it in the cron, Do I have to remove the daemon part from the conf file?`
`08:57.22`	`murb`	`depends if you're running 2.4.21-ac3 or not, certainly it is reported to break postfix.`
`08:57.46`	`chrisa`	`SPQR: i can't really remember very much about fetchmail config i'm afraid.`
`08:58.00`	`chrisa`	`the principle is that you want it to run once and exit though.`
`08:58.03`	`SPQR`	`:(`
`08:58.30`	`SPQR`	`ya, so I can set up 2 cron's 1 to run it, and another to kill it a few min after`
`08:58.36`	`chrisa`	`but yes, removing mentions of 'daemon' from the config sounds right`
`08:58.44`	`chrisa`	`that's not quite what i meant`
`08:58.52`	`SPQR`	`hehe, sorry`
`08:58.55`	`SPQR`	`O don't`
`08:59.04`	`SPQR`	`*I don't know any other ways :)`
`08:59.07`	`chrisa`	`get it to run in 'single shot' mode, then fire it every n minutes from cron`
`08:59.21`	`chrisa`	`instead of it effectively cron-ing itself`
`08:59.25`	`*** join/#gllug cup (~cup@host213-120-148-49.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`08:59.41`	`SPQR`	`how do I do the single shot part?`
`08:59.43`	`murb`	`chrisa: how long will it block for, when it flails does it have a lock file you can check for...`
`08:59.58`	`murb`	`SPQR: just fetchmail poll blah or somthing maybe.`
`09:01.01`	`SPQR`	`oooh k. I'm just looking at the config file and I think just taking out the daemon part should do it...`
`09:02.40`	`SPQR`	`I think fetchmail just died without my help :(`
`09:03.12`	`chrisa`	`i think it has a -v flag so you can see what's going on`
`09:04.07`	`SPQR`	`k`
`09:05.30`	`SPQR`	`ok... I get this error now: SIGPIPE thrown from an MDA or a stream socket error . Could it be a prob on their end?`
`09:05.58`	`chrisa`	`it could be a problem with local delivery`
`09:06.07`	`SPQR`	`that msg comes after it see's there mail and tries to fetch it from the server..`
`09:06.17`	`chrisa`	`(you can of course test a pop server by telnetting to it and speaking pop)`
`09:06.26`	`chrisa`	`so you can check their end.`
`09:09.47`	`SPQR`	`the only pop I know is soda pop :/`
`09:10.13`	`SPQR`	`looks like local delivery is fine. Just sent an internal email, no probs...`
`09:10.50`	`SPQR`	`other of the error msg's is can't raise the listener; falling back to $procmail -d %Tsh: -d: command not found`
`09:11.02`	`SPQR`	`does that help?`
`09:11.55`	`chrisa`	`it looks like your problem is how fetchmail is trying to do local delivery`
`09:12.20`	`chrisa`	`what it normally does is connects to localhost on port 25 and speaks SMTP to your local mailer`
`09:12.29`	`SPQR`	`k`
`09:12.40`	`chrisa`	`but in this case it's getting connection refused (that's the 'can't raise the listener' bit)`
`09:12.48`	`chrisa`	`so is trying procmail (of all things)`
`09:12.54`	`SPQR`	`lol`
`09:13.40`	`SPQR`	`ok, it should be getting connection refused as it can see that there's mail for us, bt its just not picking it up..`
`09:14.04`	`chrisa`	`? what happens if you telnet localhost 25 ?`
`09:14.20`	`SPQR`	`1 sec`
`09:14.32`	`*** join/#gllug SpudULike (~colin@pc-80-193-219-32-ca.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`09:14.45`	`SPQR`	`telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused`
`09:14.53`	`SPQR`	`not working then...`
`09:14.57`	`chrisa`	`right. that's your problem`
`09:15.08`	`chrisa`	`your local SMTP needs to be listening`
`09:15.55`	`chrisa`	`this explains your zombies: fetchmail is realising it can't use SMTP, so is trying procmail (for which it seems to spawn a shell), but it's not doing it properly...`
`09:16.00`	`chrisa`	`bah ESR-code...`
`09:16.02`	`SPQR`	`smtp might not be running`
`09:16.40`	`SPQR`	`it isn't I believe`
`09:17.19`	`murb`	`chrisa: does the ESR-foundation have a coding standard ?`
`09:18.00`	`chrisa`	`'crack'`
`09:21.03`	`SPQR`	`ok, where do I find the smtp daemon or its like :/`
`09:22.48`	`chrisa`	`which one do you run?`
`09:25.00`	`SPQR`	`where do I check :/`
`09:26.12`	`chrisa`	`was this debian?`
`09:26.32`	`SPQR`	`slack 8.`
`09:26.36`	`SPQR`	`*8.0`
`09:27.40`	`chrisa`	`erm. have a look in 'pkgtool' (i think) and see if you have any of exim, sendmail, postfix, qmail, etc.`
`09:28.28`	`SPQR`	`ok`
`09:33.32`	`SPQR`	`ahhh. Sendmail ain't running yet...`
`09:36.11`	`SPQR`	`much better :)`
`09:37.13`	`SPQR`	`ok, 1 of the other side effects of my bosses recompiling is that progs that are suppost to start up when the machine does, don't..`
`09:38.40`	`chrisa`	`ah..`
`09:41.58`	`*** join/#gllug sash (voidzero@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG)`
`10:40.03`	`*** join/#gllug G2_at_work (~ghenry@193.195.148.66)`
`10:48.46`	`SPQR`	`chrisa: I now know what the boss did with the kernel. He's upgraded to 2.4.21. Can ya help me with finding out why it's not starting things up?`
`10:49.23`	`*** join/#gllug stephen (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`10:49.35`	`SPQR`	`wb stephen`
`10:50.42`	`chrisa`	`SPQR: was anything else changed? do things try to start but fail?`
`10:51.25`	`SPQR`	`so far nothing has failed, only fetchmail, but we know why though :)`
`10:51.45`	`chrisa`	`well - sendmail has too, i guess`
`10:52.04`	`chrisa`	`it's likely that if you fix sendmail that the fetchmail problem will go away`
`10:52.25`	`SPQR`	`othen that the kernel being changed, nothing else has`
`10:52.48`	`SPQR`	`well I've started sendmail and fetchmail is no longer dropping xzombies`
`10:53.37`	`SPQR`	`*zombies`
`10:54.03`	`chrisa`	`can you reboot to see what happens on boot?`
`10:55.39`	`SPQR`	`I can., give a few min and I'll do it :)`
`10:57.24`	`SPQR`	`ok, I gotta log off for a few secs.`
`11:00.45`	`*** join/#gllug SPQR (~a4266@194.106.34.53)`
`11:00.53`	`SPQR`	`back`
`11:01.01`	`SPQR`	`its bad chrisa :(`
`11:01.07`	`chrisa`	`ooh`
`11:01.14`	`SPQR`	`not much seems to have started at all.,,`
`11:01.29`	`SPQR`	`I've just had to manually start sshd on it`
`11:01.50`	`chrisa`	`did it before? i'm struggling to think how a kernel upgrade would cause that`
`11:02.16`	`SPQR`	`well its been doing since the kernel upgarde :/`
`11:02.48`	`SPQR`	`it use to start all the other procees including sshd b4 hand`
`11:03.09`	`SPQR`	`the only things running now are what I've asked it to start.. :(`
`11:03.12`	`chrisa`	`hmm. is it coming up to the usual runlevel?`
`11:03.34`	`chrisa`	`maybe the lilo.conf is specifiying a different runlevel, and that got lost in the upgrade`
`11:03.46`	`SPQR`	`I don't think its getting there... I've checked the inittab and its set for the right run lvl..`
`11:03.58`	`SPQR`	`I'll check it now`
`11:04.01`	`chrisa`	`check lilo.conf. you can override the init runlevel`
`11:04.31`	`SPQR`	`thx`
`11:05.34`	`SPQR`	`ok, not seeing anything with runlevel in lilo.conf...`
`11:05.54`	`SPQR`	`gonna compair it to another..`
`11:10.34`	`SPQR`	`brb`
`11:28.03`	`SPQR`	`back again`
`11:28.30`	`SPQR`	`how can I override the runlevel through lilo?`
`11:29.07`	`chrisa`	`at the lilo boot prompt, type 'linux n'`
`11:29.16`	`chrisa`	`where linux is the name of your kernel`
`11:29.21`	`chrisa`	`and n is the runlevel you want`
`11:30.04`	`SPQR`	`ok, it'll be "2.4.21 3"?`
`11:30.33`	`chrisa`	`sounds reasonable, if it normally says Loading 2.4.21..........`
`11:30.42`	`SPQR`	`ok`
`11:31.07`	`SPQR`	`brb. Gotta restart :)`
`11:31.26`	`*** join/#gllug G2_at_work (~ghenry@193.195.148.66) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`11:31.26`	`*** join/#gllug cup (~cup@host213-120-148-49.in-addr.btopenworld.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`11:31.27`	`*** join/#gllug eye69 (magnus@upcore.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`11:31.27`	`*** join/#gllug inetd-com-br (~inetd@200.162.106.77) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`11:35.27`	`*** join/#gllug SPQR (~a4266@194.106.34.53)`
`11:36.03`	`SPQR`	`chrisa: it liked it as much a pork chop in a synagog...`
`11:38.53`	`SPQR`	`there is only 1 image in lilo for it boot by the looks of it and its: label = Linux2.4.21`
`11:39.02`	`chrisa`	`oh, ok`
`11:39.18`	`chrisa`	`then you'd need to do: LILO boot: Linux2.4.21 3`
`11:39.30`	`chrisa`	`it's the 'name' of the kernel as listed in lilo.conf`
`11:39.36`	`SPQR`	`ahhh`
`11:39.50`	`SPQR`	`but thats the 1 thats loaded by default?`
`11:40.01`	`chrisa`	`well y. but you're overriding the runlevel`
`11:40.10`	`SPQR`	`so it should hopefully work with 3 though..`
`11:40.13`	`chrisa`	`but - i'm not sure if that has much effect on slack`
`11:40.23`	`SPQR`	`hehe. We'll see :)`
`11:40.28`	`SPQR`	`back in a bit`
`11:47.01`	`*** join/#gllug SPQR (~a4266@194.106.34.53)`
`11:47.05`	`SPQR`	`back`
`11:47.23`	`SPQR`	`well we know it doesn't work for slack :(`
`11:49.07`	`chrisa`	`well, something else must have been changed`
`11:50.53`	`SPQR`	`could thet fault be with lilo?`
`11:51.27`	`SPQR`	`*the`
`11:51.51`	`chrisa`	`i don't think so. the runlevel thing was the only kernel related thing i could think of`
`11:53.16`	`SPQR`	`hmmm..`
`11:53.41`	`SPQR`	`anyway I can force it into runlevel 3 without having to reboot?`
`11:53.46`	`chrisa`	`init 3`
`11:55.36`	`SPQR`	`cheers :)`
`11:56.04`	`*** join/#gllug sash (voidzero@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG)`
`12:07.29`	`*** join/#gllug resuDaed (~tom@pc-80-193-238-7-en.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`12:07.43`	`resuDaed`	`can anyone help me with some ssh tunnelling?`
`12:08.43`	`resuDaed`	`I want to port forward 8080 to 8080 on a machine behind IP masq, and port 8080 on that machine to 80 on a device residing on a network?`
`12:21.11`	`*** join/#gllug sash (voidzero@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG)`
`12:22.49`	`*** join/#gllug sash (voidzero@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG)`
`12:23.30`	`zachary`	`afternoon sash`
`12:24.38`	`sash`	`Hello there. How's your back?`
`12:25.09`	`zachary`	`doing good, much better.`
`12:45.17`	`SPQR`	`ohhh, never knew that megadeath could sound sooo good }->`
`13:24.55`	`*** join/#gllug agk (~agk@tanganyika.uk.sistina.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`13:29.17`	`*** join/#gllug resuDaed_ (~tom@pc-80-193-238-7-en.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`13:32.48`	`SPQR`	`wb resuDaed\|work`
`13:34.20`	`resuDaed\|work`	`ty`
`13:34.59`	`SPQR`	`how's the port forwarding coming along?`
`13:35.05`	`resuDaed\|work`	`getting there`
`13:35.09`	`SPQR`	`:)`
`13:35.20`	`resuDaed\|work`	`reading man pages with 'more' is a pain in the arse`
`13:35.42`	`SPQR`	`reading man pages in normaly a pain in the arse...`
`13:36.17`	`resuDaed\|work`	`they can stillbe useful though - but '--help' is often easier if you half know what you are trying to do`
`13:37.03`	`SPQR`	`yup,I found the same sorta thing :)`
`13:40.35`	`resuDaed\|work`	`basically, the issue is this ...`
`13:41.10`	`resuDaed\|work`	`cam:80 -> 8080:box:8080 -> server:8080`
`13:41.15`	`zachary`	`bbl`
`13:41.44`	`resuDaed\|work`	`but I cannot get box -> server`
`13:44.17`	`chrisa`	`resuDaed\|work: are you doing that by logging into 'box' and doing ssh -L 8080:server:8080, then connecting from 'cam' to box:8080?`
`13:44.48`	`resuDaed\|work`	`no ...`
`13:45.21`	`resuDaed\|work`	`from 'box', -L 8080:cam:80, but it is the box -> server that is stumping me`
`13:45.31`	`resuDaed\|work`	`box is behind IP masq`
`13:45.49`	`chrisa`	`where are cam and server?`
`13:46.14`	`resuDaed\|work`	`cam - box \| server ( - = LAN, \| = IP masq)`
`13:46.46`	`chrisa`	`and you want to connect from cam to server's port 8080?`
`13:47.16`	`resuDaed\|work`	`yeah, ie the server will listen on :8080 and forward to cam (via box)`
`13:47.33`	`chrisa`	`oh, i see, the other way around.`
`13:47.52`	`chrisa`	`your client is on server and the server is on cam?`
`13:48.25`	`resuDaed\|work`	`cam is a very expensive network camera, that needs to be publiclly broadcasted on server:8080`
`13:48.36`	`chrisa`	`aha.`
`13:49.05`	`resuDaed\|work`	`(cam also runs Linux 2.0, but I cannot log into it :-()`
`13:50.18`	`resuDaed\|work`	`from 'box', ssh -NgL 8080:cam:80 localhost ??`
`13:51.08`	`chrisa`	`do something like ssh -L 8080:cam:80 user@box on server`
`13:51.23`	`resuDaed\|work`	`yeah, that is running ok, and works`
`13:51.24`	`chrisa`	`that binds 8080 on server, and forwards it to cam:80 by way of box`
`13:51.36`	`resuDaed\|work`	`oh, sorry, misread`
`13:51.38`	`resuDaed\|work`	`one sec`
`13:52.13`	`resuDaed\|work`	`server cannot connect to box, because of the IP masq`
`13:53.36`	`chrisa`	`oh, ok.`
`13:54.07`	`chrisa`	`in which case, on box: ssh -R 8080:cam:80 user@server`
`13:54.34`	`resuDaed\|work`	`do I need '-g' to make it public?`
`13:55.13`	`chrisa`	`most likely, y.`
`13:58.22`	`resuDaed\|work`	`brb, just testing from another wrkstation`
`14:03.06`	`resuDaed\|work`	`chrisa : it works, but ...`
`14:03.29`	`resuDaed\|work`	`there is a good 15 seconds lag on it`
`14:04.01`	`resuDaed\|work`	`I had to ssh -L 3128:lcaolhost:8080 localhost on teh server to make a port public`
`14:06.38`	`chrisa`	`hmm, not sure why that would be. i guess it does make a new ssh connection for each port forward though`
`14:07.54`	`resuDaed\|work`	`I can walk in, re-focus the camera, walk out, walk about 10 yards to another machine, sit down wait five seconds and watch myself focussing the camera`
`14:08.04`	`chrisa`	`feature!`
`14:08.33`	`resuDaed\|work`	`the problem is that I need to have alive conversation with someone wi=hile demonstarting the camera`
`14:08.52`	`chrisa`	`maybe you could put a portforward on the masq box, and run an http proxy on server?`
`14:08.58`	`chrisa`	`(it is http i s'pose?)`
`14:09.04`	`resuDaed\|work`	`it is`
`14:09.43`	`resuDaed\|work`	`port forward forom where to where?`
`14:10.30`	`resuDaed\|work`	`ahh, I get you, the masq serevr is a Win2k box`
`14:10.37`	`chrisa`	`eek`
`14:10.45`	`resuDaed\|work`	`(not my doing I can assure you`
`14:10.57`	`chrisa`	`i was going to suggest an iptables thing to forward box:8080 -> cam:80`
`14:11.06`	`chrisa`	`then poxy that out to server:8080`
`14:11.16`	`resuDaed\|work`	`what about running a tunnel through putty?`
`14:11.56`	`chrisa`	`same what you were doing before... an iptables portforward would be better 'cos you don't have the whole connection start / encryption overhead, but. ...`
`14:12.43`	`chrisa`	`oh - is the win2k box behind another box that actually does the masq?`
`14:13.58`	`resuDaed\|work`	`nope, 'bag bad world' -> 'Win2k' -> local network`
`14:14.24`	`chrisa`	`so how come server can't connect to box?`
`14:14.39`	`resuDaed\|work`	`because the LAN is on private IPs`
`14:14.44`	`resuDaed\|work`	`192.168.0.0/24`
`14:15.18`	`chrisa`	`but if it's doing masq, it must have a real ip as well`
`14:15.29`	`resuDaed\|work`	`the 2k box has a real IP yes`
`14:16.11`	`resuDaed\|work`	`but 2k cannot port forward can it?`
`14:16.23`	`resuDaed\|work`	`(that would make my life too easy)`
`14:17.29`	`chrisa`	`there may be random shareware foo that does portforwarding...`
`14:18.54`	`*** join/#gllug sash (voidzero@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG)`
`14:19.06`	`resuDaed\|work`	`if I ran putty on 2k, forwarded cam:80 to 2k:80, and then set server:8080 to redirect to 2k:80`
`14:19.21`	`resuDaed\|work`	`a 300 or 301 or whatever through http`
`14:21.20`	`*** join/#gllug Jenson\|A1ay (~jenson@pc-80-193-238-178-en.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`14:21.34`	`chrisa`	`i think if i needed this for more than a trivial amount of time, i'd be thinking about having a unix box on the local lan, and having it connect out to your server with openvpn or something, then setting routes and iptables forwarding so that server:8080 ended up pointing at the cam`
`14:22.24`	`*** join/#gllug SPQR (~a4266@194.106.34.53) [NETSPLIT VICTIM]`
`14:22.33`	`resuDaed\|work`	`there are a few unix boxes on the lan`
`14:23.08`	`resuDaed\|work`	`the only reason the main server(s) run 2k is that there are not unix guys here all the time (I am a sub-contractor)`
`14:23.57`	`resuDaed\|work`	`3 of those unix boxes make up my workstaion, my lappy and the box I am working on now`
`14:24.34`	`resuDaed\|work`	`also dhcp, email and file services are on unix`
`14:36.18`	`*** join/#gllug nasrat (~paul@62.190.209.125)`
`14:47.45`	`stephen`	`instead of leaving all channe;s`
`14:47.52`	`stephen`	`dammit`
`14:47.56`	`*** part/#gllug stephen (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`14:58.01`	`*** join/#gllug stephen (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`15:11.05`	`*** join/#gllug DHHLZWYf (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`15:11.27`	`*** join/#gllug stephen (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`15:17.10`	`sash`	`Bye`
`15:33.32`	`SPQR`	`exit`
`15:42.00`	`chrisa`	`when is the next one?`
`15:42.18`	`Jenson`	`dunno yet`
`15:42.33`	`Jenson`	`would have been at the last one, but Nik was too tired to go, so we didnt`
`16:20.04`	`SpudULike`	`12th July is the next one.`
`16:21.57`	`*** mode/#gllug [+o SpudULike] by ChanServ`
`16:22.18`	`*** topic/#gllug by SpudULike -> GLLUG - Greater London Linux User Group, http://gllug.org.uk [Next Meeting: 12th July], Check out IRC FAQ at http://www.gllug.org.uk/irc.html`
`16:23.24`	`nasrat`	`SpudULike: got speakers sorted?`
`16:24.07`	`SpudULike`	`I don't think any speakers have been sorted yet, you'ld need to confirm with Zach.`
`16:24.19`	`SpudULike`	`Unless that was an offer????? ;-)`
`16:25.44`	`nasrat`	`possibly - happy to talk :)`
`16:26.28`	`*** join/#gllug zachary (~zachary@host217-36-20-235.in-addr.btopenworld.com)`
`16:27.11`	`zachary`	`SpudULike: Hunting wabbits?`
`16:28.00`	`SpudULike`	`More like hares, but then that's me and the Hoover.`
`16:28.33`	`murb`	`wanting habbits.`
`16:31.06`	`nasrat`	`murb: become a monk`
`16:31.26`	`murb`	`is that legal?`
`16:32.07`	`nasrat`	`murb: lots of them in .it`
`16:35.54`	`nasrat`	`pub calls.`
`16:47.42`	`SpudULike`	`Is it true that Powergen have started up in Italy??? Is it really true that their website is www.powergenitalia.com`
`16:50.01`	`JD`	`SpudULike: of course`
`16:50.14`	`JD`	`SpudULike: they are all too stupid to notice a small thing like that`
`16:50.41`	`SpudULike`	`Aww, don't do that JD!`
`16:51.02`	`JD`	`SpudULike: well don't be stupid then`
`16:51.20`	`JD`	`:)`
`16:52.01`	`JD`	`stupid gits`
`16:52.13`	`JD`	`doesn;t anyone stop and think these days?`
`16:55.14`	`*** join/#gllug NHx (~nick@213.152.57.82)`
`16:56.15`	`NHx`	`It appears the vote for the vote on the dreaded softwarepatent issue has been re-scheduled for the beginning of September. This gives us more time to act.`
`16:56.54`	`NHx`	`s/vote for the vote/the vote/`
`16:57.10`	`NHx`	`Darn indirection! :-)`
`16:59.54`	`*** join/#gllug stephen (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`17:11.59`	`*** join/#gllug stephen_ (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`17:24.39`	`A4266`	`yello`
`17:58.00`	`*** join/#gllug cupis (~paul@195.137.116.73)`
`18:12.21`	`*** join/#gllug stephen (stephen@slacker.infinity-e.co.uk)`
`18:31.09`	`Jenson`	`Any students or graduates, I jusr found this comnpetition on the Barclays site http://www.win3k.co.uk/overdraft.html`
`18:46.39`	`*** join/#gllug Leeds (~richardc@user-2280.tcl9.dsl.pol.co.uk)`
`19:43.28`	`*** join/#gllug stephanb (~frog@80.46.222.72)`
`19:43.43`	`stephanb`	`hello everybody !`
`19:48.36`	`Jenson`	`hey`
`19:49.20`	`stephanb`	`hey ! wassup ?`
`19:49.51`	`Jenson`	`nothing much, about to watch Bad Girls....`
`19:49.54`	`Jenson`	`you new here?`
`19:50.49`	`stephanb`	`yes i've only been here a couple of days ago, had a chat with Xiaoqi`
`19:51.00`	`Jenson`	`oh i like her`
`19:51.23`	`Jenson`	`she'll be online later i expect, i think she's moving computers about at the moment`
`19:51.41`	`stephanb`	`isn't she gone to scotland to visit her bf ?`
`19:51.48`	`Jenson`	`she lives there`
`19:51.50`	`Jenson`	`with him`
`19:51.52`	`Jenson`	`her fiance`
`19:52.01`	`Jenson`	`she came down here to visit us lot :)`
`19:52.16`	`stephanb`	`"down" here ?`
`19:52.23`	`Jenson`	`welll london`
`19:52.31`	`Jenson`	`except london isnt where im at right now`
`19:53.51`	`stephanb`	`oic`
`19:53.52`	`Jenson`	`#where you from?`
`19:54.22`	`stephanb`	`france, moved to london 6yrs ago. i used to hang on a canadian chan to talk linux`
`19:55.30`	`Jenson`	`cool, you shgould come to gllug and meet us all`
`19:56.43`	`stephanb`	`i know, I've met the dudes from blag = brixton linux user group`
`19:57.23`	`Jenson`	`Well, should come to ours, we have girls too`
`19:58.48`	`stephanb`	`well yeah I'm amazed`
`19:59.12`	`stephanb`	`I always imagined LUGs as a bunch of post-pubescent anoraks getting together to drink beers`
`19:59.20`	`Jenson`	`they are lol`
`19:59.33`	`stephanb`	`i don't drink much, I'm the martial-arts health-freak type`
`19:59.38`	`Jenson`	`except for about 3 of us girls`
`20:00.03`	`Jenson`	`Anyway, I'm off for now`
`20:00.04`	`Jenson`	`Seeya`
`20:00.17`	`stephanb`	`okidoki`
`20:02.36`	`Leeds`	`not many girls...`
`20:06.01`	`stephanb`	`sorry, shall we try a short prayer ?`
`20:19.21`	`stephanb`	`Awakened One please help use reduce sexism in computing`
`20:20.52`	`stephanb`	`The kernel is gracious and compassionate`
`20:22.01`	`stephanb`	`and our symbol is a cute little animal that helps us connect with our feminine side`
`20:22.40`	`stephanb`	`Penguin Oh Lord, let us see the Light`
`20:23.14`	`stephanb`	`help us hear the words of Eric S. Raymond our Prophet`
`20:26.09`	`stephanb`	`hmm...`
`20:26.22`	`stephanb`	`not very good...`
`20:26.39`	`stephanb`	`anybody with a C of E education around here ?`
`20:27.32`	`Leeds`	`C of E? heh`
`20:29.14`	`stephanb`	`me neither`
`20:29.49`	`stephanb`	`although I did the alpha course ! :-O`
`20:30.05`	`Leeds`	`I play for the other side (one of them)`
`20:30.28`	`stephanb`	`aaah, which other side ?`
`20:30.38`	`Leeds`	`Jewish`
`20:30.50`	`stephanb`	`oh that's not really the other side`
`20:30.59`	`Leeds`	`'tis to me :-)`
`20:31.13`	`Leeds`	`what do you understand by the other side?`
`20:31.59`	`stephanb`	`consumer society, hedonism, greed, belief in an individual self as the most important thing`
`20:32.04`	`Leeds`	`hmm... my machine at work is dead`
`20:32.25`	`stephanb`	`or another possible "other side" could be islam fundamentalism`
`20:32.44`	`Leeds`	`nothing particularly special about islamic fundamentalism`
`20:32.56`	`*** join/#gllug gregj (~gj@80.253.107.41)`
`20:33.07`	`stephanb`	`hmm very interesting`
`20:33.26`	`Leeds`	`whoa... we got brownouts at work`
`20:33.52`	`stephanb`	`can you develop the judaism side, I'm born jew but not educated in judaism`
`20:34.05`	`stephanb`	`why thunderstorms in leeds ?`
`20:34.08`	`Leeds`	`hmm...`
`20:34.18`	`Leeds`	`work is in Watford`
`20:34.32`	`Leeds`	`what do you mean by develop?`
`20:34.41`	`Leeds`	`give me more specific questions :-)`
`20:34.45`	`gregj`	`re`
`20:34.53`	`Leeds`	`hey gregj`
`20:35.05`	`stephanb`	`how do you see Judaism as being on the "other side" or "opposite" to say christianity`
`20:35.33`	`Leeds`	`more the other way around...`
`20:35.46`	`stephanb`	`pse explain..`
`20:35.49`	`Leeds`	`Christianity is the other side to Judaism - Judaism was around first :-)`
`20:36.10`	`stephanb`	`oh yes, in other terms, Jesus is a jewish dissident, I know that`
`20:36.24`	`Leeds`	`Christianity was originally a fork of Judaism... one of very very many - just the most sucessful`
`20:36.48`	`Leeds`	`picked up a huge amount of pagan (originally Greek/Roman) stuff on the way too`
`20:36.53`	`gregj`	`Leeds: czesc`
`20:37.05`	`stephanb`	`well it got rid of a lot of rules and, as i understood it, reduced the power of the priests`
`20:37.19`	`Leeds`	`Islam and Judaism are a lot closer to each other than than to Christianity, as I see it`
`20:37.42`	`stephanb`	`hmm probably indeed`
`20:38.23`	`Leeds`	`depending on exact belief, I think Christianity comes close to polytheism at times - trinity, Virgin, stuff like that`
`20:38.47`	`Leeds`	`and yes, I know... there's no such thing as a single Christianity`
`20:40.21`	`stephanb`	`well the polytheistic theme is the main thing protestants argue against RCs`
`20:40.55`	`Leeds`	`all the same from where I'm sitting... Christians worship a dead man - doesn't sound very monotheist to me`
`20:41.23`	`stephanb`	`no that's not the whole picture, they worship an avatar`
`20:41.41`	`stephen`	`Leeds: I disagree, if you take away all the frankly useless crap which Christians love to argue over, then all denominations of christianity should be, at the core, the exact same`
`20:41.50`	`Leeds`	`was Jesus a man? did he die? is he worshipped?`
`20:42.04`	`stephen`	`yes`
`20:42.28`	`Leeds`	`then... Christians worship a dead man...`
`20:42.32`	`Leeds`	`hang on`
`20:42.33`	`stephanb`	`basically for most Xtian denominations, Jesus is an avatar, and he is worshipped as such`
`20:42.45`	`Leeds`	`one of you will have to change your name... this is confusing :-)`
`20:43.10`	`Leeds`	`thank you...`
`20:43.27`	`foobared`	`no, not in the slighest, christians believe that that Jesus returned to life and therefore is still alive today`
`20:43.33`	`foobared`	`and you're welcome btw :-)`
`20:43.38`	`Leeds`	`stephanb: define/explain avatar?`
`20:43.42`	`Leeds`	`foobared: you a Christian?`
`20:43.56`	`foobared`	`yes, a bad one, but still a christian`
`20:44.07`	`stephanb`	`avater = human incarnation of god, example Krishna in the Baghavad Gita`
`20:44.56`	`stephanb`	`but unitarians, don't believe in that, they view Jesus as a prophet, like muhammet or the historical buddha`
`20:45.26`	`stephanb`	`therefore maintream Xtians consider the Unitarians as "non christian"`
`20:45.49`	`Leeds`	`stephanb: I'd agree with them on that`
`20:46.32`	`Leeds`	`isn't the theory "Jesus was the son of god... came to Earth, died, taking sins of Christians with him, returned to establish/prove divinity"?`
`20:47.08`	`stephanb`	`i don't know, to me this sort of theological discussion is not very important`
`20:47.38`	`foobared`	`erm, the 'theory' is that Jesus was raised back to life, walked this earth, and then returned to heaven and still lives on`
`20:47.48`	`stephanb`	`it's a distraction from more important issues of understanding the dilemna of one's existence in the here and now`
`20:47.58`	`foobared`	`but yes, he died taking the sins of mankind with him`
`20:48.11`	`Leeds`	`I have no dilemma of existence...`
`20:48.16`	`Leeds`	`please explain the phrase`
`20:48.48`	`stephanb`	`you mean explain dilemna of existence ?`
`20:48.58`	`Leeds`	`yes`
`20:50.12`	`stephanb`	`if we are going to die, what are we supposed to do in our life ?`
`20:50.35`	`Leeds`	`there's no if about dying :-)`
`20:50.49`	`stephanb`	`and`
`20:51.03`	`stephanb`	`why is there suffering / anguish.`
`20:51.04`	`Leeds`	`we're supposed to enjoy life, enjoy the world, help others`
`20:51.22`	`stephanb`	`but sometimes life is not enjoyable`
`20:51.27`	`Leeds`	`suffering is mainly due to two things - human nature and economics`
`20:51.32`	`stephanb`	`or rather it doesn't appear to be.`
`20:51.58`	`Leeds`	`it's not meant to be enjoyable all the time...`
`20:52.19`	`stephanb`	`then how do we get about to learn / understand human nature`
`20:52.42`	`Leeds`	`by interacting with people... by reading (or other artistic stuff)`
`20:52.51`	`stephanb`	`where do you get the idea that you are here to help others (apart from Torah) ?`
`20:53.13`	`Leeds`	`well, a lot of it is from there...`
`20:53.33`	`Leeds`	`some is from a slight rememnent of my socialist experiences when I was younger`
`20:54.15`	`Leeds`	`some is simply instinct... I feel an urge to help... I feel good when I help`
`20:54.37`	`stephanb`	`you are a spiritual man Leeds`
`20:54.47`	`Leeds`	`sometimes...`
`20:54.54`	`stephanb`	`i believe we all have that instinct`
`20:55.07`	`stephanb`	`but some of us live in denial about it`
`20:55.19`	`Leeds`	`I'm quite into community stuff... more into that than into ritualistic religion`
`20:55.48`	`Leeds`	`stephanb: have a look at http://www.limmud.org.uk - I'm an active volunteer for that organisation`
`20:55.56`	`gregj`	`Leeds: can you set status - "playing" - while you are on jabber and plaing some games please ?`
`20:56.13`	`gregj`	`Leeds: i don't know if i should risk and start to send you any messages :]`
`20:56.18`	`*** part/#gllug new2unix (~new2unix@dsl-217-155-250-141.zen.co.uk)`
`20:56.22`	`Leeds`	`gregj: if I'm here, I'm available`
`20:56.43`	`Leeds`	`the problem is that I don't trust gaim... so I tend to just close gaim down`
`20:56.53`	`gregj`	`gaim sux`
`20:56.54`	`gregj`	`use psi`
`20:56.55`	`gregj`	`:]`
`20:56.56`	`Leeds`	`that is... if I'm chatting here...`
`21:05.20`	`*** join/#gllug resubitch (~beth@pc-80-193-238-7-en.blueyonder.co.uk)`
`21:05.56`	`Jenson`	`hey hey Beth`
`21:06.07`	`resubitch`	`hiya`
`21:25.45`	`gregj`	`75 % of my apache log files are - 404`
`21:26.33`	`Leeds`	`303`
`21:27.54`	`gregj`	`\|default.ida?XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u9090%u8190%u00c3%u0003%u8b00%u531b%u53ff%u0078%u0000%u00=a`
`21:27.59`	`gregj`	`\|182`
`21:28.02`	`gregj`	`\|`
`21:28.04`	`gregj`	`\|/images/nessus.txt`
`21:28.07`	`gregj`	`\|9`
`21:28.09`	`gregj`	`\|`
`21:28.12`	`gregj`	`\|/c/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir`
`21:28.14`	`gregj`	`\|7`
`21:28.17`	`gregj`	`\|`
`21:28.19`	`gregj`	`top 3 positions`
`21:28.30`	`gregj`	`i am going to add filtering in iptables for default.ida and port 80 i guess`
`21:28.31`	`gregj`	`:]`
`21:38.24`	`gregj`	`it is time to play on Xbox`
`21:38.25`	`gregj`	`:]`
`21:38.32`	`Leeds`	`you have Xbox?`
`21:39.28`	`gregj`	`one of people i am living with`
`21:39.32`	`Leeds`	`ah`
`21:39.34`	`gregj`	`it is pretty nice thing`
`21:39.43`	`gregj`	`i am never going to install linux on it`
`21:39.51`	`gregj`	`becouse there is no 3d support for linux`
`21:40.00`	`gregj`	`it got only 64MB of ram`
`21:40.02`	`Leeds`	`depends on what you want it for`
`21:40.03`	`gregj`	`and slow processor`
`21:40.09`	`gregj`	`but, games are very nice`
`21:40.10`	`Jenson`	`http://www.mostannoyingwebpage.com/v1/index2.html`
`21:43.29`	`Jenson`	`oh well sleep time`
`21:43.32`	`Jenson`	`night guys`
`21:45.59`	`gregj`	`Leeds: well, i read on net about people trying to make some clusters on it`
`21:46.06`	`gregj`	`Leeds: but performance is poor`
`21:47.50`	`Leeds`	`hmm... not been paid yet`
`22:15.26`	`Leeds`	`ah-ha - I guess it goes through at 11pm :-)`
`22:19.50`	`stephanb`	`okay guys time to brush my teeth...`
`22:19.59`	`stephanb`	`see you later`
`22:21.47`	`*** part/#gllug stephanb (~frog@80.46.222.72)`
`22:25.00`	`*** join/#gllug armijn (~armijn@losser.labs.cs.uu.nl)`
`22:25.01`	`armijn`	`re`
`22:30.54`	`*** join/#gllug skugg (~stig@braut.plus.com)`
`22:34.45`	`armijn`	`hi skugg`
`22:35.30`	`skugg`	`hi armijn`
`22:36.05`	`foobared`	`hehe nn skugg`
`22:39.11`	`armijn`	`hhe, I just came from the pub`
`22:39.17`	`armijn`	`they had german wheatbeer from tap`
`22:39.28`	`armijn`	`and now I feel kind of fuzzy...`
`22:40.04`	`stephen`	`:)`
`22:40.36`	`armijn`	`problem with the german wheatbeer, it's kinda cloudy, which means there's still quite a bit of yeast in there...`
`22:44.43`	`armijn`	`stella.`
`22:44.46`	`armijn`	`oh gawd`
`22:45.04`	`armijn`	`lots of yeast makes you fart`
`22:45.04`	`Leeds`	`bloody snooty Dutch`
`22:45.11`	`armijn`	`leeds: stella is belgian, so...`
`22:45.13`	`Leeds`	`could have been Bud!`
`22:45.28`	`Leeds`	`but then it wouldn't have been beer...`
`22:47.13`	`skugg`	`Leeds, given the two, i'd actually have chosen bud.`
`22:47.17`	`skugg`	`stella is foul.`
`22:47.26`	`skugg`	`you're better off with water.`
`22:48.33`	`armijn`	`am going to old-fart-festival tomorrow`
`22:48.36`	`stephen`	`Worthingtons all the way ...`
`22:49.11`	`armijn`	`like, lots of bands with guys who could be my father playing and stuff`
`22:51.02`	`armijn`	`Status Quo, Uriah Heep, Thin Lizzy and Deep Purple on one day...`
`22:51.32`	`armijn`	`in an area with lots and lots of farmers...`
`22:51.52`	`armijn`	`should be fun :)`
`22:53.15`	`armijn`	`all I need to do tomorrow morning is send my paper to agk and UKUUG office (yes! it's finished!)`
`23:00.01`	`armijn`	`ah well`
`23:00.05`	`armijn`	`bedtime`
`23:00.15`	`*** part/#gllug armijn (~armijn@losser.labs.cs.uu.nl)`
`23:01.39`	`Axel`	`re`
`23:05.22`	`Leeds`	`moerning Axel`
`23:05.42`	`Axel`	`morning Leeds :)`
`23:07.54`	`Leeds`	`TDL?`
`23:07.59`	`Leeds`	`http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3024046.stm`

Generated by irclog2html.pl by Jeff Waugh - find it at freshmeat.net! Modified by Tim Riker to work with blootbot logs, split per channel, etc.