| 01:10.46 | *** join/#fredlug jduncan (~jduncan@pool-96-248-11-23.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 02:45.56 | *** join/#fredlug plarsen (~plarsen@redhat/jboss/pdpc.professional.plarsen) |
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| 21:38.51 | jduncan | jsmith: are you around? |
| 21:39.42 | plarsen | jduncan, he's probably flying to somewhere exotic in the line of duty :) |
| 21:41.29 | *** join/#fredlug benji (~benji@c-71-62-106-255.hsd1.va.comcast.net) |
| 21:42.25 | jduncan | plarsen: lol. India or Abu Dhabi or some exotic foreign locale. I had an interesting "how to involve a community in an open source project" scenario. |
| 21:43.33 | plarsen | jduncan, ohh? |
| 21:43.47 | jduncan | anybody interested in chatting about it? |
| 21:45.38 | plarsen | Well, shoot :) We need this channel to get some traffic :) |
| 21:45.55 | plarsen | Or if it's fedora related, we can do it in #fedora-social or #fedora? |
| 21:46.04 | jduncan | no. it's not a fedora project. |
| 21:46.34 | jduncan | there's a gov't funded FOSS project, http://www.connectopensource.org |
| 21:46.51 | jduncan | Right now there's not a solid way for someone to actually CONTRIBUTE CODE |
| 21:47.15 | jduncan | which (among other things) my current company has been asked to fix |
| 21:47.53 | ggd | but for healthcare |
| 21:48.00 | jduncan | yes. |
| 21:48.09 | ggd | not everything ( if that makes sense) |
| 21:48.44 | jduncan | Connect (the app name) is an implementation of the SPEC to be a member on the Nationwide Health Information Network (NHIN). |
| 21:49.27 | jduncan | I don't know why i capitalized SPEC. |
| 21:50.12 | jduncan | So we're discussing the ways to implement code-contribution and try to begin building out a contributor community |
| 21:50.44 | plarsen | Have you looked at forge.mil ? |
| 21:51.19 | ggd | do you use that plarsen ? |
| 21:51.50 | plarsen | Personally no - but others at RH are |
| 21:52.12 | jduncan | this project already has a jira / crucible / wiki implementation a connectopensource.org |
| 21:52.33 | jduncan | and this isn't a DoD effort (although they are NHIN members) |
| 21:52.55 | jduncan | this is the federal government's answer to swapping electronic health records. |
| 21:53.07 | jduncan | so it's got a nice little political poison vibe to it. |
| 21:53.15 | plarsen | Yeah - I know about it jduncan - but not too many details. |
| 21:54.12 | jduncan | I'm just looking for opinions on how best to handle code contributions for what has been up to this point a very closed project. |
| 21:54.36 | jduncan | plarsen - sadly i know too many details about it. |
| 21:55.07 | plarsen | jduncan, are you trying to open source a previously closed source system? |
| 21:55.23 | jduncan | no, it's always been open source. there's just never been a community before. |
| 21:55.39 | jduncan | the previous contract holder never bothered to build up a community, or try to. |
| 21:55.53 | jduncan | it's GPL, but has never been truly "opened" up. |
| 21:56.22 | plarsen | Ahhh - well, building one should start with the basic tools. From there on, it's advertising. Have IRC and forums people can write on. Setup a wiki and add some content, and once your community grows they should be adding to it |
| 21:56.38 | plarsen | jduncan, have you considered github ? |
| 21:56.56 | jduncan | the wiki is there (and has been for ages). |
| 21:57.05 | jduncan | the contract mandates it's own code repo. |
| 21:57.10 | jduncan | if i'm not mistaken. |
| 21:57.13 | jduncan | but will investigate. |
| 21:57.14 | jduncan | to be sure |
| 21:57.39 | jduncan | they've also had a few "code-a-thon"s |
| 21:57.52 | jduncan | i'm thining right now about the actual contribution process. |
| 21:58.34 | jduncan | how to make it lest onerous on the contributor but still make it so that a very "delicate" codebase can't get too far out of whack. |
| 21:58.46 | jduncan | the project DOES have dedicated developers. |
| 22:00.09 | plarsen | That's not the open source way ;) If you want tight control then fully open source may not be the solution. |
| 22:00.59 | plarsen | If people like it, and start building to it, it becomes a joint venture. I'm sure in the beginning you're going to be able to assert what changes/features should be added - but as the community grows, that will no longer be your decission |
| 22:01.52 | plarsen | If you read what other previous inventors of big open source projects have gone through, you'll notice that they were very ambivilent when it came to the point where the project was no longer "theirs" but the community's. |
| 22:02.28 | jduncan | most projects have a patch/bug/feature approval process. |
| 22:02.33 | jduncan | no? |
| 22:07.53 | plarsen | most projects have a "core" which does change over time but the core sets directions yes. However, most popular projects tend to fork at some point too because not everyone agrees on the direction |
| 22:08.59 | jduncan | that would be a good problem to have in this case. :) |
| 22:09.24 | plarsen | jduncan, with fedora there are several groups. For each project there's a "steering group" and an appointed maintainer, and for the whole project there are coordination groups that makes sure the general direction of Fedora is upheld by everyone |
| 22:10.19 | jsmith | jduncan: Sorry, had to run pick up my son |
| 22:10.21 | jsmith | jduncan: What's up? |
| 22:10.55 | plarsen | jsmith, look up and read the thread ;) |
| 22:11.09 | plarsen | Gotta hit the road. I'll join later tonight jduncan if you want to continue |
| 22:12.14 | ggd | hey jsmith |
| 22:12.35 | ggd | but how does forge.mil comply with opensource? |
| 22:12.44 | ggd | thou? |
| 22:12.58 | ggd | if i as an individual can't access it |
| 22:13.36 | jsmith | jduncan: Unfortunately, I know more about Connect than I probably should :-p |
| 22:13.42 | jduncan | hey, jsmith. we were just talking about ways to get the ball rolling with an open source project my current company is working to build the community out on. Your opinion in this field is an interesting one, I'd think. |
| 22:13.52 | jsmith | jduncan: As I got asked to go to Connect-a-thon and speak on open source communities |
| 22:13.58 | jduncan | jsmith: o? who drug you in? |
| 22:14.29 | jsmith | jduncan: One of the Amentra guys who was/is is charge of architecture for the community |
| 22:14.42 | jduncan | ah. yes. just finished talking to him. |
| 22:15.05 | jsmith | jduncan: He had lunch with stickster and I to discuss ideas, and then he and I talked quite a but further about it, and I ended up giving two talks at Connect-a-thon about communities |
| 22:15.21 | jduncan | the project leader for 5AM asked me to take a look at the docs they've been working on. They seem a little .... heavy-handed. |
| 22:15.32 | ggd | jsmith, jduncan isn't the idea of open source is that anyone can contribute to the project thou?? |
| 22:15.43 | jduncan | not technically. |
| 22:15.47 | jduncan | i don't think. |
| 22:15.55 | jduncan | just my humble opinion. |
| 22:15.57 | jsmith | For better or worse, they made the conscious decision to ignore my advice and steer things toward a "We control the core, you can contribute to plug-ins" model |
| 22:16.20 | jsmith | They're open source by the letter of the law, but really aren't quite there by the spirit of the law. |
| 22:16.21 | jduncan | I think it's worse, and am making an 11th hour effort to stop it. |
| 22:16.27 | jsmith | Oh? |
| 22:16.46 | jduncan | worst they can do it say "no" |
| 22:16.54 | jduncan | they can't fire me at this point. ;) |
| 22:16.59 | jsmith | It basically came down to "We don't trust outside contributors, and we don't want to make the effort to provide a mechanism for people to gain our trust" |
| 22:17.20 | jsmith | "We'll let people contribute code, but we won't necessarily take it" |
| 22:17.31 | jduncan | taht's what I'm getting from our director. the mistrust is coming from the gov't. control mechanisms.... |
| 22:17.44 | jsmith | Absolutely |
| 22:18.04 | jduncan | I have a very Yoda-like opinion on that one. Do or do not. there is no try. |
| 22:18.22 | jsmith | The gov't agent is like "We're the only ones who care about this, so why does it matter?" |
| 22:18.41 | jsmith | So, there's my 2 cents on Connect |
| 22:18.42 | ggd | big brother?? |
| 22:18.59 | jduncan | and then they asked us to make it different. except not. |
| 22:19.00 | jsmith | ggd: Naw, it's just about health care record federation |
| 22:19.06 | jsmith | jduncan: Oh? |
| 22:19.34 | jduncan | sure. when the contract was re-awarded. 5AM is handling the initial re-writes / running the project in some parts. |
| 22:21.42 | jsmith | Oh? |
| 22:21.43 | jsmith | Interesting... |
| 22:21.47 | jsmith | disavows any and all knowledge he may have had |
| 22:21.53 | jduncan | LOL |
| 22:22.25 | ggd | LOL jsmith |
| 22:22.27 | jduncan | I think it's interesting that you've already been engaged, and when I saw the docs they generated the first thing I wanted to do with them was to get you to rip them to shreds. |
| 22:22.47 | jsmith | jduncan: Well, to be honest, they sort of pulled a fast one on me |
| 22:22.59 | ggd | question for you both.. |
| 22:23.12 | jsmith | jduncan: They asked me to present, and then half-way through the presentation, that's when they told me about their proposed model, and wanted me to endorse it. |
| 22:23.25 | jsmith | jduncan: And I had to say "Wow... uh... well... it's not how I would do it." |
| 22:23.43 | ggd | isn't open source both the spirit and the letter of the law and any deviation on it isn't... |
| 22:23.46 | jduncan | that sounds a lot like an email exchange I had just a few hours ago |
| 22:24.08 | ggd | so to speak? |
| 22:24.27 | jsmith | ggd: It's definitely not a black/white issue |
| 22:24.29 | jduncan | ggd: I thin of it this way: "If I have the code I can do aynthing i want with it, per the GPL, as long as I give credit". How easy does it ahve to be to get the code? |
| 22:24.54 | jsmith | jduncan: In this case, getting the code is easy... it's being part of a community of contributors that's hard |
| 22:25.00 | jsmith | jduncan: (unless they've changed that too) |
| 22:25.02 | jduncan | exactly. |
| 22:25.03 | jduncan | no. |
| 22:25.14 | jduncan | the contribution process is what I initially balked at. |
| 22:25.15 | ggd | gosh this sounds like a fredlug meeting topic?? |
| 22:25.25 | ggd | or a combo fredlug/ralug.. |
| 22:25.30 | ggd | rvalug rather |
| 22:25.38 | jsmith | We're renaming ourselves to RHLUG |
| 22:25.42 | jsmith | ducks and hides |
| 22:25.51 | jduncan | LOL |
| 22:25.52 | ggd | rhlug?? |
| 22:25.58 | jsmith | I've gotta run for a few minutes -- my son needs a ride to his band concert. |
| 22:26.07 | jduncan | GO BAND! |
| 22:26.09 | jsmith | I'll be back online from the parking lot of the school in a little while... |
| 22:26.10 | jduncan | thanks for the input. |
| 22:26.15 | ggd | what istrament? go badn |
| 22:26.17 | ggd | band |
| 22:26.19 | ggd | crap |
| 22:26.21 | jsmith | jduncan: I'll be around tomorrow if you want more input |
| 22:26.25 | jsmith | ggd: Tenor Sax |
| 22:26.27 | ggd | nice |
| 22:26.32 | jsmith | or, rather, alto sax |
| 22:26.33 | ggd | my dad played that |
| 22:26.37 | jsmith | always gets them confused |
| 22:26.39 | ggd | nice |
| 22:26.43 | ggd | alto is smaller |
| 22:26.46 | ggd | than the tenor |
| 22:26.50 | jsmith | Yeah.. |
| 22:26.54 | jsmith | Anyhoo, have to run. |
| 22:26.57 | jsmith | Catch you later! |
| 22:26.57 | ggd | <- band geek too |
| 22:27.03 | ggd | yea jsmith |
| 22:27.06 | jsmith | <- orchestra geek |
| 22:29.28 | ggd | jduncan, rhlug? |
| 22:32.21 | jduncan | ggd, idk what he meant, edactly. |
| 22:32.30 | ggd | thats why i was asking... |
| 22:32.32 | ggd | :) |
| 22:32.45 | ggd | i thought you knew... |
| 22:33.44 | jduncan | we're certainly not renaming the richmond lug. :) |
| 22:34.12 | ggd | LOL i was thinking that and perhaps stickster_afk wouldn't rename the fredericksburg one either |
| 22:34.39 | ggd | although this topic does warrant more discussion don't you think? |
| 23:01.17 | ggd | rhlug? |
| 23:04.56 | jsmith | ggd: I was only kidding about the rename... it was a joke |
| 23:04.58 | jsmith | ggd: I figured we'd rename it to "Red Hat LUG", because so many of us have been hired by Red Hat |
| 23:05.02 | jsmith | failed at his feeble attempt at humor |