| 05:02.52 | *** join/#elinux TimRiker (~timr@proxyle01.ext.ti.com) |
| 05:02.53 | *** mode/#elinux [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 05:04.35 | andersee | TimRiker: thx for the docs |
| 05:04.52 | andersee | :-) |
| 05:05.22 | TimRiker | ;-) |
| 05:05.56 | TimRiker | I keep using bb systems with the wrong date and forgetting the format. no "man" or (gag) "info" pages... ugh. ;-) |
| 05:06.13 | TimRiker | I figure a few bytes will help ease my pain. |
| 05:06.49 | TimRiker | cleaned up a few trailing spaces too. /me points to his vimrc: |
| 05:07.33 | andersee | TimRiker: /me looks for your vimrc and sees nothing |
| 05:07.37 | TimRiker | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:07.37 | TimRiker | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:08.22 | TimRiker | very useful for maintainance. ;-) |
| 05:10.21 | andersee | TimRiker: nice |
| 05:33.34 | TimRiker | andersee: dns down on ns2 ? (ie nail or winder or whatever?) |
| 05:35.03 | andersee | TimRiker: seems to be working |
| 05:35.07 | andersee | whats the problem? |
| 05:35.49 | TimRiker | some hosts are not resolving cvs.bzflag.org at present. xmission.bzflag.org for example. |
| 05:37.07 | TimRiker | hmm. dyndns.org issue perhaps... |
| 05:39.10 | TimRiker | dig +norecurse cvs.bzflag.org on nail fails for me. |
| 05:40.06 | TimRiker | hmm. changed serial num, hupped my end, axfr happened and we're back. |
| 05:40.43 | TimRiker | wierd |
| 05:45.01 | fontenot | andersee, is the toolchain builder supposed to currently work out of the box with 0.9.24 ? It's not for me. |
| 05:45.38 | andersee | fontenot: which one? |
| 05:46.24 | fontenot | gcc 3.3.1 |
| 05:46.48 | fontenot | (since there isn't a gcc 3.3.2 one yet :-) |
| 05:47.28 | fontenot | it builds with 0.9.21 and changing to 0.9.24 works mostly but fails on the install step |
| 05:47.47 | fontenot | i did this days ago and don't have the error right this second |
| 05:48.25 | fontenot | I think some vars changed in the uclibc config file between those versions as well |
| 05:49.40 | andersee | fontenot: use the gcc 3.3.x one |
| 05:49.51 | fontenot | andersee, OK will do |
| 05:50.00 | andersee | fontenot: toolchain/gcc-3.3.x |
| 05:50.18 | fontenot | yeah I have it, just didnt try it |
| 05:55.15 | fontenot | that one looks much nicer - has a make dir |
| 06:02.50 | andersee | TimRiker: yeah |
| 06:02.57 | andersee | TimRiker: at least things are working now |
| 06:37.36 | *** join/#elinux fishhead (~slasher@c-67-165-89-144.client.comcast.net) |
| 06:40.06 | TimRiker | hmm. busybox telnet localhost www works but busybox telnet localhost 80 does not? |
| 06:40.30 | fishhead | any fag that allows telnet deserves to be hacked |
| 06:40.42 | TimRiker | ~whaleslap fishhead |
| 06:40.44 | | ACTION slaps fishhead upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 06:40.59 | fishhead | ~whaleslap TimRiker |
| 06:41.02 | | ACTION slaps TimRiker upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 06:41.04 | TimRiker | to port 80 as you might notice. |
| 06:41.19 | fishhead | ah |
| 06:41.24 | fishhead | web check heh |
| 06:41.38 | fishhead | I thought you were smarter than that |
| 06:41.43 | fishhead | I was like "WTF?" |
| 06:42.17 | TimRiker | though telnetd is much smaller than *sshd so there is still a need. the TuxScreen offers telnet for example. |
| 06:42.29 | fishhead | I don't care how small it is |
| 06:42.34 | fishhead | a fetus could root it |
| 06:42.47 | TimRiker | when all you have is 4M of flash you'll care. |
| 06:42.57 | fishhead | is there any pda options for x86 yet |
| 06:43.03 | fishhead | pda size tools embedded linux for x86 |
| 06:43.45 | TimRiker | there are some small x86 boxes, yeah. but not cheap, and not popular. |
| 06:43.52 | fishhead | no I mean just software |
| 06:43.55 | fishhead | like opie |
| 06:44.09 | fishhead | I want to turn a useless 8 meg ram laptop into a usuable box |
| 06:44.18 | TimRiker | opie works great on x86. I run the debian compiled versions myself. |
| 06:44.25 | fishhead | oh ? |
| 06:44.35 | fishhead | framebuffer or svgalib support ? |
| 06:44.41 | fishhead | or does it use microwindows |
| 06:44.46 | TimRiker | op-*-fb in unstable. /dev/fb0 by default. |
| 06:45.02 | fishhead | I will have to build a kernel with FB support for the card |
| 06:45.07 | fishhead | hopefully it will work :/ |
| 06:45.34 | mpirun | anyone doing any robotics? |
| 06:45.38 | TimRiker | I run on VESA 640x480 |
| 06:45.57 | fishhead | vesa ? |
| 06:46.04 | fishhead | vesa framebuffer ? |
| 06:46.06 | TimRiker | mpirun: ask andersee, he'll tell you what he used to do many moons ago. ;-) |
| 06:46.20 | andersee | TimRiker: eh? |
| 06:46.25 | TimRiker | fishhead: yeah. vesafb 640x480x16 |
| 06:46.40 | andersee | mpirun: howdy |
| 06:46.48 | TimRiker | andersee: /me recalls something about multi-axis controllers in andersee's past. |
| 06:46.54 | mpirun | andersee: hi...:) |
| 06:47.05 | andersee | TimRiker: yep |
| 06:47.12 | andersee | mpirun: howdy |
| 06:47.15 | fishhead | time thx |
| 06:47.29 | fishhead | tim can opie use the keyboard and mouse |
| 06:47.37 | TimRiker | fishhead: yes. |
| 06:47.40 | fishhead | cool :) |
| 06:47.46 | mpirun | andersee: if you dont mind some newbie questions: can i use a digial I/O board to directly control some servo's? |
| 06:47.49 | fishhead | I will defintely have to play with that |
| 06:48.32 | andersee | mpirun: if you have a digital amp... |
| 06:48.34 | TimRiker | mpirun: oh, now you want to put some theory into practice? ;-) that's not so easy. ;-) |
| 06:48.34 | mpirun | i want to build a host controlled arm, controlled by a host at all times. |
| 06:49.02 | andersee | mpirun: or if you run your digital i/o board into a dtoa, and run that into an amp |
| 06:49.38 | andersee | it is not especially trivial |
| 06:49.49 | mpirun | dtoa? |
| 06:50.38 | andersee | and you should probably have a solid background in control of analog dynamic systems first, since that is what you are approximating, allowing for sampling issues |
| 06:50.45 | mpirun | last robotics ive done was with a big pneumatic thangy with AB PLC's for control |
| 06:50.46 | andersee | mpirun: digital to analog converter |
| 06:51.06 | mpirun | ok...i should have figgured out 'dtoa"...:) |
| 06:51.08 | andersee | plcs are good -- though programming in ladder logic sortof sucks |
| 06:52.19 | mpirun | should i take the common route of building little microcontrollers to interface each servo/sensor to the host? |
| 06:52.35 | andersee | mpirun: anyway, the simplest setup for servo control required a real time 4x4 matrix multiply to implement a pid control loop |
| 06:52.57 | andersee | mpirun: you have a servo motor with an encoder I presume? |
| 06:53.07 | andersee | mpirun: for reporting position? |
| 06:53.25 | mpirun | i have nothing yet.. i dont know where to start on the electronic side |
| 06:53.56 | andersee | if you don't know where the motor or axis is currently, you can't very will tell it where it is supposed to be. |
| 06:54.44 | andersee | a PID (proportional * integral / derivitive) loop takes the error and feeds it back into the controller |
| 06:54.59 | andersee | all based on the error in the current position |
| 06:55.39 | mpirun | some reason i assumed that was built into the hobby servo's. now that i think about it, i guess nothing i've read supports that assumption |
| 06:55.48 | andersee | determining appropriate pid gains for a system is tricky. Generally done by developing an inertial model of the system to be controlled... |
| 06:56.36 | andersee | anyway, all digital controls is graduate level EE and/or ME stuff |
| 06:57.14 | andersee | most hobbiest use stepper motors, and drive them open loop |
| 06:57.27 | andersee | controlling servo motors is non trivial |
| 06:58.06 | andersee | unless you want to pay someone else for their servo motors / controller package |
| 06:58.26 | mpirun | ok...so assuming i want to start trivial, with steppers or relays (for pneumatics even), what is the best interface for something like this to the host? |
| 06:58.29 | andersee | which tend to be a bit pricey for amateur robotics |
| 06:59.04 | andersee | mpirun: I remember way back as an undergrad, I hooked up a bank of 16 steppers up to my PC via the parallel port |
| 06:59.20 | andersee | I posted the code to usenet, way back ~ 1992 or so |
| 06:59.42 | andersee | There are surely much more advanced implementations of the same thing out there now |
| 07:00.07 | mpirun | or even to model with some LEDs and switches, i assumed a digital I/O board would be the simplest way to interface with extrernal controls |
| 07:00.07 | andersee | google for "parallel port" "Linux" and "stepper" and I guarantee you'll find stuff |
| 07:01.22 | andersee | mpirun: as I predicted |
| 07:01.26 | andersee | mpirun: lots of hits |
| 07:01.33 | andersee | http://www.google.com/search?q=%22parallel+port%22+%22Linux%22++%22stepper%22 |
| 07:01.38 | fishhead | yeah |
| 07:01.40 | fishhead | you be shocked |
| 07:01.48 | fishhead | how many steppers and shit you can run off a parallel port |
| 07:02.05 | mpirun | yeah....interesting that can get motors out of floppy drives |
| 07:02.12 | fishhead | x86 isn't always the ideal for embedded, but many times for larger stuff it is |
| 07:02.25 | andersee | I used to go to the local thrift store, find busdted floppy drives and hard drives, buy for mostly nothing, then rip out the steppers |
| 07:02.28 | fishhead | mpi you could get one of those via c3 powered mini-itx for $100 |
| 07:02.41 | fishhead | hard drives have NIB magnets |
| 07:02.44 | fishhead | mmmm |
| 07:02.53 | fishhead | I have like 60 hanging from my ceiling |
| 07:02.54 | mpirun | fishhead: thats the eventual goal, if it goes mobil |
| 07:03.06 | fishhead | c3 isn't a bad cpu for interger stuff |
| 07:03.13 | fishhead | yes it sucks canucks for fpu stuff |
| 07:03.19 | fishhead | but control stuff is 90% interger anyways |
| 07:03.37 | mpirun | goal at this point is an arm on my desk to hand me a cig from a shoot on demand...:) |
| 07:03.46 | fishhead | espically since linux can dance around the cpu design to get the max out of it |
| 07:04.15 | fishhead | mpi 1 suggestion |
| 07:04.21 | fishhead | if you model this with a existing pc |
| 07:04.31 | fishhead | use a older box you don't care about or use a parallel port card |
| 07:04.49 | fishhead | so if you get a feed back and the superIO chip takes it up the butt, you don't kill off your main system |
| 07:04.55 | mpirun | nod |
| 07:05.06 | fishhead | isa parallel port card is like $5 |
| 07:05.21 | fishhead | you might want to run multiple anyways :P |
| 07:05.39 | fishhead | you can also btw use cheap 8 bit microcontrollers to do stepper control serially |
| 07:05.47 | fishhead | so with the 8 data lines you could control 8 steppers |
| 07:05.57 | fishhead | 8 data lines out of the parallel port |
| 07:06.53 | mpirun | i see that is what most people seem to do, with PIC's or such....PIC prgrammers look relatively expensive though. |
| 07:07.08 | andersee | mpirun: You may also want to use opto-isolators |
| 07:07.20 | fishhead | mpi no dude listen |
| 07:07.25 | fishhead | if you get a PIC with ISP flash |
| 07:07.29 | fishhead | it's self programming |
| 07:07.40 | fishhead | all you need is mabye a serial port cable and a few resisters |
| 07:07.46 | andersee | mpirun: optoisolators are nice to avoid frying your system when you hook up 120V ac accidentally to the wrong wire |
| 07:07.47 | fishhead | or few pieces off a parallel port |
| 07:07.59 | fishhead | you don't need a full programmer with ISP flash |
| 07:08.18 | fishhead | mpi and you are only talking 1-2 dollars more |
| 07:08.19 | fishhead | if that |
| 07:08.55 | mpirun | looks like some PIC's can interface over I2C too |
| 07:09.05 | fishhead | yep |
| 07:09.07 | fishhead | and SPI |
| 07:09.11 | fishhead | and several others |
| 07:09.24 | fishhead | MPI I am still a newbie |
| 07:09.28 | fishhead | but I don 1 yr of reading |
| 07:09.36 | fishhead | its' not the scarey field it used to be |
| 07:09.50 | fishhead | the semi makers really cater more and more to their customers |
| 07:09.57 | fishhead | making these things almost as easy as a pc |
| 07:10.01 | fishhead | pretty scarey :P |
| 07:14.35 | Russ | I2C is free now too |
| 07:15.44 | mpirun | hmm...a USB stepper motor contorller kit |
| 07:20.54 | fishhead | mpi yeah dude they have all kinds of awesome shit and most of it is cheap |
| 07:20.58 | fishhead | and not hard to deal with |
| 07:24.13 | fishhead | btw mpi |
| 07:24.20 | fishhead | many of these semi makers give out freee samples |
| 07:24.41 | fishhead | I think some of them the worse is you pay shipping :) |
| 07:24.51 | fishhead | and then you have a few free fully working samples to compare |
| 07:28.21 | mpirun | i saw the free PIC samples from micropic or whoever...need to find out about the programmers though. |
| 07:28.36 | fishhead | dude |
| 07:28.38 | fishhead | I told you |
| 07:28.44 | fishhead | get PICS with ISP FLASH |
| 07:32.12 | fishhead | mpi look here is a older example |
| 07:32.12 | fishhead | http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/noppp/ |
| 07:35.21 | mpirun | good link..thanks. |
| 07:35.47 | fishhead | http://www.rotgradpsi.de/mc/picprog/picprogispe.html |
| 07:35.49 | fishhead | that one too |
| 07:35.56 | fishhead | not a problem |
| 07:36.08 | fishhead | you can still use a programmer if you want but with isp flash it's not necessary |
| 07:36.20 | fishhead | oh btw |
| 07:36.23 | fishhead | with ISP flash |
| 07:36.27 | fishhead | the mcu can program it also |
| 07:36.53 | fishhead | so you could use part of the flash to store values etc |
| 07:36.53 | mpirun | motor control unit? |
| 07:38.46 | fishhead | you can get pics with motor control components |
| 07:39.03 | fishhead | www.microchip.com |
| 07:39.11 | fishhead | they have a whole CANUCKload of different families |
| 07:39.26 | fishhead | the low pin ones are neat for when you only need a few i/o pins |
| 07:39.30 | fishhead | very small and cheap |
| 07:39.45 | fishhead | they have a 8 pin model with 6 pins being i/o |
| 07:41.06 | mpirun | yeah..see that microchip will give you up to 15 PICs per month for free |
| 07:41.16 | fishhead | nice |
| 07:41.19 | fishhead | I didn't even know that :) |
| 07:41.29 | fishhead | yeah take 5 mins fill out the form |
| 07:41.34 | fishhead | get a few different models to play with |
| 07:46.30 | mpirun | hrm.USB PIC programmer kit for $35 |
| 07:46.40 | mpirun | that does all DIP's |
| 07:47.03 | fishhead | that's not bad at all |
| 07:47.11 | fishhead | even I could afford that |
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| 08:21.45 | [BalancE] | re |
| 08:27.26 | fishhead | goodnight all |
| 08:27.33 | mpirun | night...thanks |
| 08:27.39 | fishhead | yeah np |
| 08:27.47 | fishhead | also try efnet #electronics |
| 08:27.52 | fishhead | lots of pic people |
| 08:28.31 | [BalancE] | I work with ATMEL AVR microcontroller |
| 08:29.21 | fishhead | nice :) |
| 08:30.00 | fishhead | AVR's are cool |
| 08:30.05 | fishhead | from my reading about them |
| 08:30.29 | [BalancE] | I try to write a webserver in assembly on ATmega128 |
| 08:30.33 | fishhead | hehehe |
| 08:30.35 | fishhead | neat |
| 08:34.19 | fishhead | goodnight :) |
| 08:34.27 | fishhead | see you another time |
| 08:34.33 | [BalancE] | bye |
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| 08:56.55 | [BalancE] | what is the best embedded linux for 8 bit microcontrollers? |
| 08:58.16 | fishhead | hshahaah none |
| 08:58.28 | fishhead | and I doubt linux will be ported to 8 bit |
| 08:58.46 | fishhead | okay I am going back to sleep now ;) |
| 08:59.03 | [BalancE] | ok :) |
| 08:59.41 | fishhead | but there are small unix like os's for microcontrollers |
| 08:59.52 | fishhead | try google searching mabye next time I see you I will find you some urls |
| 08:59.54 | fishhead | goodnight |
| 09:01.46 | [BalancE] | bye |
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| 11:35.58 | mpirun | [BalancE]: are the AVR's pretty cheap? |
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| 11:50.49 | [BalancE] | mpirun: are you here? |
| 11:51.33 | mpirun | sorry, hi. i do not yet work with PIC's, i think i am about to start though. |
| 11:58.14 | [BalancE] | mpirun: I started the work with AVR in 2001 |
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| 12:00.28 | mpirun | linux tools to work with them? |
| 12:02.30 | [BalancE] | I use PonyProg for programming AVR's flash memory |
| 12:02.40 | [BalancE] | and AVRA assembler |
| 12:03.04 | [BalancE] | I don't use the AVR-GCC |
| 12:03.39 | mpirun | im very newbie on the electronics side, wanting to build a robotic arm |
| 12:04.53 | [BalancE] | not to easy.. :) |
| 12:05.10 | [BalancE] | with stepper or servo motors? |
| 12:05.34 | mpirun | dont know yet |
| 12:05.55 | mpirun | i'm still unsure why everything couldnt be driven by an DI/O board |
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| 12:18.00 | mpirun | something like http://www.qkits.com/serv/qkits/velleman/pages/K8055.asp |
| 12:19.25 | [BalancE] | it's too expensive |
| 12:22.40 | mpirun | aside from price, whats wrong with it?..:) |
| 12:23.43 | [BalancE] | ATmega128 have: |
| 12:23.48 | [BalancE] | 53 I/O |
| 12:23.59 | [BalancE] | 6 1-16 PWM out |
| 12:24.05 | [BalancE] | 8 10 bit AD |
| 12:24.10 | [BalancE] | 2 UART |
| 12:24.14 | [BalancE] | 1 SPI |
| 12:24.22 | [BalancE] | 2 16 bit timer |
| 12:24.25 | mpirun | could a generic digial I/O board not be programmed to drive steppers or servos? |
| 12:24.26 | [BalancE] | 2 8 bit timer |
| 12:26.34 | [BalancE] | generic output (PWM) -> amplifier -> DC servo motor |
| 12:27.35 | mpirun | the amp will still be needed with the ATmega, right? |
| 12:28.07 | [BalancE] | of corse |
| 12:30.20 | mpirun | i never plan for this to run away from a controlling host PC, so do i need the added logic/complexity of the microcontroller? |
| 12:34.02 | [BalancE] | the communication isn't complex |
| 12:34.02 | [BalancE] | usually I use the LPT port |
| 12:34.36 | [BalancE] | and in the future I want to use ethernet |
| 12:36.38 | mpirun | what is your project? what are you controlling? |
| 12:37.29 | [BalancE] | industrial automation... (www.pknc.com) |
| 12:39.10 | mpirun | heh.. Telemechanique is still around?..:) |
| 12:39.40 | mpirun | never hear of them in the US anymore. |
| 12:40.07 | [BalancE] | no.. the Schneider Group was buy the Telemechanique |
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| 15:09.57 | chouimat | morning |
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| 19:28.33 | [BalancE] | byez |
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