| 00:04.23 | *** join/#elinux ljp (~ljp@206.168.3.155) |
| 00:16.58 | sorphin | ljp: he's here now.. somewhere |
| 00:17.25 | CosmicPenguin | grrr... my ipaq can't detect my vfat CF |
| 00:17.28 | ljp | I know. I emailed him yesterday |
| 00:17.38 | sorphin | so he said |
| 00:31.43 | ljp | hi tim. ahh the ole firewall, eh? |
| 00:32.03 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (~dieu@modemcable120.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 00:32.58 | TimRiker | heh. yep. you know... it takes a while to figure out how to do your job with each new firewall puzzle. |
| 00:34.05 | ljp | so TI is stepping up to the linux ballplate |
| 00:34.23 | kergoth | here's hoping they dont strike out |
| 00:34.51 | ljp | TimRiker: have you seen benmeyers essay? |
| 00:35.01 | chouimat | kergoth: that will depend of the management in the long run |
| 00:35.20 | ljp | oh, I dont have that url |
| 00:35.36 | chouimat | ljp: bad_apple.php? |
| 00:35.39 | ljp | yes |
| 00:35.44 | kergoth | chouimat: yep. we should start a pool on the total IQ of the entire management team |
| 00:35.44 | chouimat | ljp: wait |
| 00:35.57 | chouimat | kergoth: here my bet: 0 |
| 00:36.01 | chouimat | err -234 |
| 00:36.13 | kergoth | hehe |
| 00:36.39 | ljp | naa, they make great calculators |
| 00:36.43 | chouimat | ljp: www.csh.rit.edu/~benjamin/articles/bad_apples.php |
| 00:38.17 | chouimat | calice! |
| 00:40.01 | chouimat | i forgot to backup my xinerama config .... |
| 00:42.07 | *** join/#elinux Russ (~russ@65.39.81.228) |
| 00:45.08 | prpplague | ljp: nice paper |
| 00:45.16 | prpplague | ljp: he's got some valid points |
| 00:48.17 | chouimat | prpplague: yup |
| 00:48.33 | chouimat | hmmmmm beer or cider tonight? |
| 00:48.39 | prpplague | chouimat: beer |
| 00:48.41 | ljp | rum |
| 00:48.51 | prpplague | chouimat: one of the local places has strongbow |
| 00:49.06 | chouimat | prpplague: ok ... enjoying it? |
| 00:50.07 | CosmicPenguin | hmmm.... |
| 00:50.28 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: making jffs2 images works, right? |
| 00:51.30 | prpplague | chouimat: its ok |
| 00:51.35 | prpplague | chouimat: its actually cider |
| 00:51.45 | prpplague | chouimat: mainly just tired |
| 00:52.06 | prpplague | chouimat: i'm hopin i can get out of here by 11 tonight |
| 00:53.13 | chouimat | prpplague: ok ... I'm tired too ... I only got about 2 or 3 hours of sleep last night ... the gays next door were having a little too much fun |
| 00:58.17 | chouimat | later ... good show on tv |
| 00:58.35 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: yep, though you may want to check output/Makefile to confirm the erase block size is correct for IPAQ (assuming thats your target) |
| 00:58.55 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: something's funky - it doesn't like creating the /dev/* entries |
| 00:59.12 | CosmicPenguin | it sez: skipping entry "foo", no parent directory! |
| 01:00.30 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: bk pull; bk -r co -q; make SUBDIRS="packages/oz-base packages/ifupdown" clean; make |
| 01:00.57 | kergoth`tv | CosmicPenguin: s/$/; make image;/ |
| 01:01.02 | CosmicPenguin | sure |
| 01:05.21 | prpplague | lol |
| 01:05.39 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: didda getthat? |
| 01:17.26 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (~dieu@modemcable120.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 01:27.13 | *** part/#elinux bug (rblair@blairrya.user.msu.edu) |
| 02:17.16 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (~dieu@modemcable120.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) |
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| 03:31.17 | *** join/#elinux TheMasterMind1 (foobar@h-68-166-72-177.MCLNVA23.covad.net) |
| 04:02.15 | chouimat | night |
| 06:46.40 | *** join/#elinux fontenot_ (~fontenot@adsl-64-173-10-47.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) |
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| 11:14.53 | *** join/#elinux prpplague (~joe123@24.244.134.25) |
| 11:29.39 | *** join/#elinux ade|lite (~adrian@modem-3788.jaguar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 11:30.38 | ade|lite | morning all |
| 11:42.13 | prpplague | morning |
| 11:42.23 | prpplague | ade|lite: how goes it my fine friend? |
| 11:42.40 | prpplague | ade|lite: btw, i still have your webpal :) |
| 12:19.17 | prpplague | anyone alive this morning? |
| 12:34.53 | ade|lite | lo |
| 12:34.55 | ade|lite | you do know that ade|lite == ade|uni ==ade|indy yes |
| 12:34.57 | ade|lite | prpplague: great news about the webpal ... we'll have to sort out money / posting |
| 12:48.24 | *** join/#elinux ade|lite (~adrian@modem-169.gazelle.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 13:03.25 | *** join/#elinux gatofisch (~trillian@eastquad-170-211.reshall.umich.edu) |
| 14:15.52 | *** join/#elinux sieve (~klu5ter@12.148.134.9) |
| 14:16.30 | sieve | morning |
| 14:17.35 | sorphin | lo |
| 14:19.45 | CosmicPenguin | morning |
| 14:21.43 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: better mood today? |
| 14:22.08 | CosmicPenguin | a little better |
| 14:22.17 | CosmicPenguin | OZ is sort of working |
| 14:24.33 | CosmicPenguin | notice I did say "sort of" |
| 14:25.16 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: well, that's more than a bricked Z does, now isn't it? |
| 14:26.29 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: true that |
| 14:26.41 | CosmicPenguin | grrr... now I have to boot up my laptop.... |
| 14:31.22 | sieve | sorphin: you're just not having much luck with that z are you? What did you do to it so I don't repeat the same thing. :) |
| 14:36.30 | sorphin | sieve: was writing a userland program to write the flash so i wouldn't need CF to upgrade the thing |
| 14:36.58 | sorphin | sice: strangely enough, apparently you can corrupt the flash by poking data at it w/o the proper flash command (which is weird in itself, that shouldn't happen) |
| 14:39.50 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: heh |
| 14:40.16 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: every time I try to upgrade my ipaq with a CF, it locks hard with a bad interrupt |
| 14:49.07 | *** join/#elinux ade|laptop (~adrian@modem-2289.hyena.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 14:49.14 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: fun |
| 14:50.17 | CosmicPenguin | Yeah, its a good time |
| 14:56.40 | ade|laptop | damn hippy connection |
| 14:57.00 | ade|laptop | lo folks |
| 14:57.27 | sorphin | ade|laptop: lo |
| 14:57.44 | CosmicPenguin | hippy connection? |
| 14:58.10 | CosmicPenguin | ade|laptop: put together with hemp wire and bong resin? |
| 14:58.31 | signal11 | heh |
| 14:58.53 | ade|laptop | nah pure faith |
| 15:00.09 | CosmicPenguin | signal11: that was a little mean on my part, huh? |
| 15:00.15 | CosmicPenguin | signal11: I found that damn cable |
| 15:00.46 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: where was it? :P |
| 15:01.27 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: in the rats nest I call my office |
| 15:01.44 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: ah |
| 15:02.03 | signal11 | CosmicPenguin: not too bad. i heard bong water makes a good room temperature superconductor |
| 15:02.25 | sorphin | signal11: so do diamonds |
| 15:03.09 | CosmicPenguin | signal11: heh... :) |
| 15:08.22 | ade|lite | sorphin: diamonds as superconductors ??? wtf |
| 15:08.45 | sorphin | yeah |
| 15:09.30 | ade|lite | how does that work then ? |
| 15:10.29 | sorphin | ade|lite: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/1957251&mode=flat&tid=126 |
| 15:11.10 | ade|lite | will fire up mozilla in a mo.. |
| 15:11.27 | sorphin | ade|lite: heh, or lynx :P |
| 15:11.36 | sorphin | fontenot: lo jacques |
| 15:14.19 | CosmicPenguin | no init? WTF? |
| 15:16.33 | sorphin | heh |
| 15:17.18 | fontenot | hi sorphin |
| 15:20.45 | sorphin | kergoth: morning |
| 15:22.19 | kergoth | hey dan |
| 15:22.23 | kergoth | how goes |
| 15:22.31 | sorphin | eh |
| 15:22.32 | sorphin | tiredly |
| 15:22.40 | kergoth | same |
| 15:23.08 | sorphin | kergoth: you know how long the Z's warranty is? |
| 15:25.42 | *** join/#elinux vakYpollo (~higopico@151.Red-80-36-135.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 15:26.17 | kergoth | not offhand |
| 15:26.48 | sorphin | kergoth: pondering whether to just take the Z into sharp, not like they could tell/prove i did anything, it's not like i opened it up or anything |
| 15:27.01 | *** join/#elinux sieve (~klu5ter@12.148.134.9) |
| 15:27.02 | *** join/#elinux gatofisch (~trillian@eastquad-170-211.reshall.umich.edu) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:27.02 | *** join/#elinux prpplague (~joe123@24.244.134.25) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 15:28.11 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Whats going on? |
| 15:31.25 | mallum | kergoth: just sent you a changeset |
| 15:38.01 | *** part/#elinux scanline (micah@aden2-42-dhcp.resnet.Colorado.EDU) |
| 15:38.15 | *** join/#elinux scanline (micah@aden2-42-dhcp.resnet.Colorado.EDU) |
| 15:39.39 | mallum | kergoth: *sigh* I've noticed a really odd problem :/ .The makefile needs to copy the dir structure and all the files in skeleton/ over to staging/ but because of the bk permissions it dont seem to be doing that :/ |
| 15:52.47 | CosmicPenguin | grr... automake refuses to recognize autoconf in the staging directory |
| 15:53.17 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: no shock there, when it started trying to make autoconf here for me for OZ it croaked |
| 15:53.32 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: it should be searching the paths right - config.log shows all the right info |
| 15:53.44 | sorphin | heh |
| 15:53.52 | CosmicPenguin | cept - its evaluating the binary autoconf-2.53... I dunno why |
| 15:54.10 | sorphin | dunno |
| 15:54.24 | CosmicPenguin | It built once, though |
| 16:04.26 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: I got past the first error by adding a soft link to autoconf-2.53 in the bin directory |
| 16:04.33 | sorphin | heh |
| 16:04.50 | CosmicPenguin | But it looks like ipkg is blowing out too |
| 16:05.01 | CosmicPenguin | The path must be wrong |
| 16:05.05 | CosmicPenguin | doh |
| 16:05.11 | CosmicPenguin | anyway - I gotta run an error - bbl |
| 16:06.00 | sorphin | s/error/errand/ |
| 16:07.26 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: staging/i386-linux/bin gets implicitly added to the beginning of your PATH.. |
| 16:08.24 | sorphin | kergoth: you see my comment about possibly taking the Z to sharp? |
| 16:08.35 | kergoth | yeah. i doubt they can prove anything |
| 16:08.40 | kergoth | they might _suspect_, but who cares |
| 16:09.07 | sorphin | yeah |
| 16:09.29 | sorphin | now i gotta find wtf to take it |
| 16:11.04 | mallum | kergoth: any idea on my buildroot problem ? |
| 16:17.34 | kergoth | mallum: you need to correct the perms on the files in staging after copying |
| 16:18.07 | kergoth | mallum: otherwise they'll stay read only and cause you problems the second time you do it |
| 16:19.07 | sorphin | heh, sharp's svc center locator is useless |
| 16:19.42 | sorphin | get back: Handhelds |
| 16:19.43 | sorphin | Please call 1 800 BE SHARP for service information. |
| 16:19.46 | kergoth | hah |
| 16:19.56 | sorphin | fscking worthless |
| 16:20.22 | *** join/#elinux chouimat (~dieu@modemcable120.184-130-66.que.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 16:20.25 | mallum | kergoth: yeah the problem is all the files I want to copy are locked by BK, so I cant copy them |
| 16:20.25 | sorphin | hope there's no warranty card i had to send in, cuz i didn't if there was, i dont' remember there being one.. |
| 16:21.11 | chouimat | morning |
| 16:22.01 | kergoth | mallum: huh? |
| 16:22.03 | kergoth | mallum: uh |
| 16:22.13 | kergoth | mallum: bk locks dont prevent reads |
| 16:22.15 | kergoth | mallum: only writes. |
| 16:23.38 | sorphin | 8000000000000 menu options |
| 16:23.42 | chouimat | kergoth: George- is being anyoing in #zaurus |
| 16:23.59 | mallum | kergoth: ah yeah .. hmm I think where I've copied the write locked directorys they wont let anything be copied in :/ |
| 16:24.02 | kergoth | chouimat: george- is always being annoying in #zaurus |
| 16:24.08 | kergoth | mallum: as i said. |
| 16:24.13 | kergoth | mallum: *permissions* |
| 16:24.18 | kergoth | mallum: chmod -R ug=rwX * |
| 16:24.21 | kergoth | mallum: ta da |
| 16:24.22 | kergoth | heh |
| 16:24.24 | mallum | kergoth: ;-) |
| 16:24.33 | mallum | whats chmod do then ? |
| 16:24.37 | mallum | *joke* ;-) |
| 16:24.51 | kergoth | ~fishslap mallum on general principle |
| 16:24.53 | | ACTION slaps mallum on general principle up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 16:24.57 | sorphin | grrrrr |
| 16:25.01 | sorphin | stupid FSCKING SHARP |
| 16:25.02 | mallum | ~lart himself |
| 16:25.08 | kergoth | hmm |
| 16:25.15 | chouimat | mmmmm caffeine |
| 16:25.16 | sorphin | enough bot abuse :P |
| 16:25.27 | mallum | kergoth: is that what you added more or less to the Makefile ? |
| 16:25.54 | kergoth | mallum: more or less. copy, then adjust perms. I'll take care of it, i just pulled in your patch and merged it |
| 16:26.07 | sorphin | kergoth: heh, 2 sharp repair places for pdas.. one in richardson, tx the other wherever 310 areacode is.. |
| 16:26.10 | sorphin | stupid crap |
| 16:26.19 | kergoth | heh |
| 16:26.58 | sorphin | some guy got a hold of Hoshiden corp |
| 16:27.05 | sorphin | htey won't sell or sample the damn connector |
| 16:27.11 | sorphin | either |
| 16:27.24 | sorphin | i shoulda just bought an ipaq :P |
| 16:27.27 | kergoth | arm-linux-ld -r -o sa1100.o generic.o irq.o dma-sa1100.o collie.o m62332.o collie_battery.o collie_led.o collie_apm.o power.o suspend.o |
| 16:27.31 | kergoth | arm-linux-ld: ERROR: suspend.o uses hardware FP, whereas sa1100.o uses software FP |
| 16:27.34 | sorphin | least you can jtag that w/o hoops |
| 16:27.34 | kergoth | goddamnit. |
| 16:27.44 | mallum | kergoth: thanks yous |
| 16:27.59 | kergoth | File format not recognized: failed to merge target specific data of file suspend.o |
| 16:28.02 | kergoth | wtf |
| 16:28.05 | sorphin | hehe |
| 16:28.05 | kergoth | hrm |
| 16:28.12 | kergoth | suspend.S is built with -mno-fpu |
| 16:28.15 | sorphin | kergoth: looks like your fun's beginning |
| 16:28.19 | kergoth | how exactly does that result in a .o with hardware fp? |
| 16:28.21 | kergoth | ?? |
| 16:29.17 | mallum | kergoth: I think me foolishly copying all them SCCS files about have broken summin |
| 16:29.20 | mallum | kergoth: I now get |
| 16:29.23 | mallum | mallum@debian:~/src/OZ/buildroot-oz$ bk pull |
| 16:29.23 | mallum | Entire repository is locked by: |
| 16:29.23 | mallum | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:29.23 | mallum | ERROR-Unable to lock repository for update. |
| 16:29.39 | kergoth | mallum: conflict. |
| 16:29.42 | kergoth | mallum: bk resolve |
| 16:30.00 | kergoth | and find output/staging/arm-linux -name SCCS|xargs rm -rf |
| 16:30.02 | kergoth | or something |
| 16:31.05 | mallum | okey, yeah I think thats confusing things - I basically wanna delete all SCCS files in staging right ? |
| 16:31.14 | kergoth | afaik yes |
| 16:32.09 | mallum | I get lots of; |
| 16:32.12 | mallum | ROOTKEY mallum@debian.(none)|packages/xfree86/skeleton/usr/share/pixmaps/rot.png|20030324183457|22479|f83f1eb9213566f8 |
| 16:32.12 | mallum | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:32.12 | mallum | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:32.17 | mallum | and then finally |
| 16:32.28 | mallum | Not updating idcache due to dups. |
| 16:32.28 | mallum | Check FAILED, contact BitMover. |
| 16:32.28 | mallum | resolve: RESYNC directory left intact. |
| 16:32.29 | kergoth | yes, i got that too |
| 16:32.37 | kergoth | rm -f BitKeeper/RENAMES/SCCS/s.* |
| 16:32.39 | kergoth | bk resolve |
| 16:33.27 | mallum | okey much better, now just |
| 16:33.28 | mallum | Same key dave@lnxbox.(none)|packages/tinyx/Makefile|20021008062220|58906|3305f7a8c787073e used by |
| 16:33.28 | mallum | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:33.28 | mallum | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:33.28 | mallum | Check FAILED, contact BitMover. |
| 16:33.28 | mallum | resolve: RESYNC directory left intact. |
| 16:34.16 | kergoth | why is there a tinyx key in your xfree makefile?? |
| 16:34.16 | CosmicPenguin | ok - errors done |
| 16:34.28 | kergoth | heh |
| 16:34.38 | kergoth | i'd rm -rf packages/tinyx; bk repair; personally |
| 16:34.43 | CosmicPenguin | hmmm.... |
| 16:34.45 | mallum | okey |
| 16:35.12 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: check this out: cd /user/projects/ipaq/buildroot-oz/build/ipkg-x86/C; automake-1.4 -a; |
| 16:35.22 | *** join/#elinux scanline (micah@aden2-42-dhcp.resnet.Colorado.EDU) |
| 16:35.24 | CosmicPenguin | Thing is, its automake-1.7 thats getting built |
| 16:35.32 | mallum | kergoth: pulling a jumbo patch.. |
| 16:35.32 | mallum | Entire repository is locked by: |
| 16:35.32 | mallum | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:35.32 | mallum | ERROR-Unable to lock repository for update. |
| 16:35.45 | CosmicPenguin | So it must be finding my existing automake somehow |
| 16:36.02 | CosmicPenguin | That must be the same problem for the autoconf |
| 16:36.24 | sorphin | mallum: now you know why i call it bitscraper ;p |
| 16:36.51 | mallum | sorphin: :\ |
| 16:37.26 | kergoth | mallum: bk resolve |
| 16:37.36 | *** join/#elinux sieve (~klu5ter@12.148.134.9) |
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| 16:37.36 | *** join/#elinux prpplague (~joe123@24.244.134.25) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 16:37.41 | CosmicPenguin | mallum: but you're exporting autoconf in the Makefile |
| 16:37.44 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: aha, i bet i know the issues. |
| 16:37.49 | CosmicPenguin | damn |
| 16:38.05 | CosmicPenguin | Yep - just found it |
| 16:38.34 | CosmicPenguin | Ok - thats easy to change. You might just want to pull that out completely |
| 16:38.39 | chouimat | kergoth CosmicPenguin sorphin mallum and the rest: hi |
| 16:38.41 | mallum | kergoth: Missing file (chk3) dave@lnxbox.(none)|packages/tinyx/config.in|20021008062213|29609|34106ad1fc861e74 |
| 16:38.41 | mallum | Missing file (chk3) dave@lnxbox.(none)|packages/tinyx/tinyx.tar.gz|20021008062225|00230|3eedbffc8769927b |
| 16:38.41 | mallum | Missing file (chk3) kergoth@hyperion.(none)|packages/tinyx/tinyx.patch|20021024195244|48363|ba686573297393e2 |
| 16:38.41 | mallum | Check FAILED, contact BitMover. |
| 16:38.41 | mallum | resolve: RESYNC directory left intact. |
| 16:38.47 | mallum | chouimat: hey |
| 16:38.57 | sorphin | please announce floods :) |
| 16:39.08 | kergoth | mallum: rm -rf RESYNC; bk repair |
| 16:39.09 | chouimat | sorphin: hi sorphin |
| 16:39.15 | sorphin | chouimat: lo mat |
| 16:39.17 | mallum | sorphin: sorry |
| 16:39.27 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: yep, that was remnants of trying to make builds work before the buildsystem was capable of building auto* itself |
| 16:39.29 | sorphin | mallum: no biggie |
| 16:39.32 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: since most of the tools require that we build libtool, and libtool depends on buliding automake and autoconf, shouldn't we just pull out the redhat-7.3 dependant stuff anyway? |
| 16:39.40 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: yep |
| 16:39.43 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: again, remnants |
| 16:39.49 | sorphin | libtool *shiver* |
| 16:39.50 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: that happens... :) |
| 16:39.54 | kergoth | indeed |
| 16:40.08 | sorphin | s/libtool/libfool/ |
| 16:40.44 | CosmicPenguin | Ok... here's hoping this works |
| 16:41.26 | *** join/#elinux sieve (~klu5ter@12.148.134.9) |
| 16:41.56 | chouimat | any news today? |
| 16:42.35 | sorphin | chouimat: let's see.. sharp sucks ass, oh yeah, sharp also sucks ass, and the company that makes that connector for the bottom of the Z, etc.. won't sell or sample them either |
| 16:42.38 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: the good news is, now that I have Microwindows and Pixil on OZ, it should be simple to stick it on the Z, when you send it tom me... :) |
| 16:42.52 | chouimat | sorphin: fuck |
| 16:43.16 | *** join/#elinux TomW (tom@144seg-pc-1919-4.cmts.sth.ptd.net) |
| 16:43.19 | sorphin | chouimat: there are *2* sharp svc centers for the Z which means i'll have to ship the damn thing off if i wantd to take taht approach |
| 16:43.22 | sorphin | TomW: yo |
| 16:43.26 | TomW | ? |
| 16:43.32 | sorphin | TomW: need your advisement |
| 16:43.41 | sorphin | TomW: looking at scopes |
| 16:43.52 | TomW | k |
| 16:44.07 | sorphin | think a 20mhz is good enough for general use? |
| 16:44.24 | TomW | No, get a 100MHz scope. |
| 16:44.28 | sorphin | heh |
| 16:44.47 | TomW | Better if you get a dual-trace model with a good triggering circuit. |
| 16:45.12 | chouimat | hi TomW |
| 16:45.24 | TomW | Look at getting a used Tektronix scope. They are usually a good buy and are professional grade scopes. |
| 16:45.25 | chouimat | sorphin: or get a sharp serial cable and mod it |
| 16:45.32 | TomW | chouimat: hello |
| 16:45.46 | sorphin | chouimat: they're minimum of $35 |
| 16:46.01 | sorphin | chouimat: plus, i still have the jflash to contend with |
| 16:46.11 | chouimat | sorphin: like the dc-coder cable here are 40$ |
| 16:46.46 | chouimat | wooohoooo the cad is at .687151usd |
| 16:47.12 | TomW | sorphin: there are others that are probably just as good. What you want to do is find a "calibration service" and see what they might have. Most OEM manufacturers are required to have calibrated equipment on hand, these need to be re-calibrated once a year. |
| 16:47.14 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: cool |
| 16:47.33 | mallum | kergoth: okey all seems ok now :-) |
| 16:47.34 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: any idea when pixil will be up to greg's bloat standard? |
| 16:47.44 | TomW | sorphin: Most times, these calibration shops will also sell new equipment and take the old as trade-in. |
| 16:47.56 | sorphin | TomW: 100mhz ones aren't very cheap :( tho this one is a lil |
| 16:48.05 | sorphin | TomW: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2522247408&category=4677 |
| 16:48.08 | TomW | sorphin: you want to "see" the scope, the most expensive part on the scope is the crt! |
| 16:48.43 | TomW | sorphin: you want to see how bright the trace is on the CRT, buying a scope blind is a good way to waste money. |
| 16:49.09 | sorphin | TomW: look at the likn above |
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| 16:50.06 | mallum | kergoth: still have problem skeleton be copied no writw though - can you think of a safe way to chmod only the copyied files ? |
| 16:50.13 | TomW | sorphin: I learned the hard way: I purchased a used tektronix scope one time and didn't see it fired up. When I took it home, I saw how bad the CRT was. When I checked to see how muach a new CRT would cost, it was far more than I (double) the cost that I paid for the scope! |
| 16:50.18 | kergoth | mallum: yes, i'll take care of it |
| 16:50.33 | sorphin | TomW: look at the link :P |
| 16:50.49 | mallum | kergoth: cool, sorry if I've been a bk pain ( again ) :{ |
| 16:51.02 | TomW | sorphin: that is what I have, a 465. |
| 16:51.28 | sorphin | TomW: that one look ok to you ? (that auction) |
| 16:51.34 | kergoth | mallum: np |
| 16:51.37 | sorphin | mallum: blame bk |
| 16:51.45 | kergoth | heh |
| 16:51.56 | kergoth | it takes a while to learn the intricacies of a source control system |
| 16:51.59 | kergoth | cvs is no exception |
| 16:52.47 | mallum | yeah Im pretty good with CVS, bk seems alot more complex but more powerful / cleverer |
| 16:53.56 | TomW | sorphin: pig in a poke, if you can get it for < $150, it might be a good deal. You won't know until you get it and find out that the high frequency sweep amplifier has a problem, or the Normal Trigger mode doesn't work... |
| 16:54.14 | sorphin | heh |
| 16:54.24 | sorphin | TomW: the rest are all $300+ |
| 16:54.29 | TomW | sorphin: be prepared to waste your money. |
| 16:54.36 | sorphin | heh |
| 16:54.38 | TomW | sorphin: yeah, well, doesn't that tell you something? |
| 16:54.52 | sorphin | TomW: yeah, that i won't be getting one of those :P |
| 16:55.26 | TomW | sorphin: I paid $500 for mine about two years ago and purchased it from a calibration shop. I went there and tried it out, they demo'ed it before I bought it. |
| 16:55.46 | TomW | sorphin: plus they gave me a year warranty on it. |
| 16:56.12 | sorphin | i suppose i could see what gateway electronics has around atm |
| 16:56.25 | sorphin | local place,/old ham place |
| 16:56.47 | TomW | IMO, ebay is the perfect place for crooks, liars, and thieves to rip people off. Let the buyer beware... |
| 16:57.12 | sorphin | heh |
| 16:57.30 | sorphin | TomW: 99% of the time, i've had -0- probs |
| 16:57.53 | sorphin | the 1% is that so called serious seller (more like serious loser) |
| 16:58.16 | mallum | kergoth: ahh, nice new menu compiler options :-) |
| 16:58.40 | TomW | sorphin: like the guy who sold me my Yeasu VX-5 HT, he said it was like new, never used. Yeah, right. When I got it it had repeaters already programmed into it and the Lithium battery was shot. |
| 16:59.35 | CosmicPenguin | I don't understand why Greg doesn't trust me |
| 16:59.54 | sorphin | TomW: never had that prob |
| 17:00.09 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: three words |
| 17:00.13 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: he's a loser :P |
| 17:00.20 | TomW | When I purchase on ebay, I expect to get ripped off in some way. Like the guy that sold me a Netgear FA411 PCMCIA card for $9, then charged me $12 in shipping. |
| 17:00.39 | sorphin | TomW: only gotten raped on shipping once |
| 17:01.18 | TomW | THAT was my fault, I should have expected something like that when he didn't list the shipping & handling charges. |
| 17:01.19 | sorphin | TomW: i've gotten things from ebay that it'd be hard for me to locate here or otherwise |
| 17:01.38 | kergoth | mallum: :) makes it easier to build the kernel stuffs with gcc2 and the rest with gcc3 now |
| 17:01.43 | kergoth | mallum: i'm lazy, what can i say |
| 17:01.44 | sorphin | TomW: i bought my Z off ebay, brand new, sealed, etc.. just as it said it was |
| 17:01.51 | sorphin | paid $175 months ago |
| 17:02.12 | sorphin | maybe a bit less |
| 17:02.22 | sorphin | so sometimes there's good deals/people |
| 17:02.28 | TomW | sorphin: my advice is that if you want something to hack around with, buy it on ebay and hope for the best. If you need equipment to do work with, spend the extra money and purchase from a reputable shop. |
| 17:03.26 | sorphin | TomW: so why 100mhz? the ones at school i think were 20's and were fine |
| 17:03.46 | TomW | I need a new scope though, the 465 is now tired. When I sweep at 20ns/div the trace is hard to see. |
| 17:06.02 | TomW | sorphin: you see that Tektronix 2465 scope for $45, that is a digital storage scope. |
| 17:06.16 | sorphin | ok? |
| 17:06.37 | TomW | sorphin: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2521418943&category=4677 |
| 17:06.44 | TomW | but, it is broken. |
| 17:07.15 | sorphin | more like $113 |
| 17:07.44 | sorphin | and he's selling it as a parts only unit |
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| 17:08.02 | TomW | heh |
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| 17:08.20 | TomW | I like the one that says "bad power supply" |
| 17:08.45 | sorphin | TomW: gonna answer my Q? :P |
| 17:08.45 | TomW | prolly the supply went and wiped out a few boards inside the scope. |
| 17:08.57 | TomW | what questionis that? |
| 17:09.13 | sorphin | TomW: <sorphin> TomW: so why 100mhz? the ones at school i think were 20's and were |
| 17:09.13 | sorphin | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:12.10 | TomW | Because if you are going to use it view 20 MHz signals, you are fine, that equates to a 100ns/div resolution. If you just want to see if a signal is wiggling, it is good. But, if you want to make some measurements as to the length of a RAS pulse on a RAM, or to measure the pulse width on a chip select, it is useless. At 100MHz you can get down to 20ns/div of resolution and can "see" down to about 5ns with some confidence. |
| 17:12.21 | chouimat | where did I put that spec sheet |
| 17:12.28 | sorphin | chouimat: which ? |
| 17:12.48 | chouimat | sorphin: my monitor |
| 17:12.52 | sorphin | chouimat: ah |
| 17:12.55 | sorphin | TomW: heh |
| 17:13.07 | chouimat | sorphin: TTX 8997 |
| 17:13.16 | TomW | IMO, you wouldn't be happy with a 20MHz scope, a logic probe is more useful. |
| 17:13.18 | sorphin | TomW: i dunno if i'll be diving into doing that any time soon, since i haven' touched a scope since college ;) |
| 17:13.28 | sorphin | already got one of those ;) |
| 17:13.32 | TomW | k |
| 17:13.43 | sorphin | logic probe that is |
| 17:13.44 | TomW | so what do you need a scope for? |
| 17:13.57 | sorphin | heh |
| 17:14.00 | TomW | I'm being faceatious here... |
| 17:14.55 | TomW | 100MHz would be the minimum scope. That way, you can also see most HF, VHF rf signals too. |
| 17:15.04 | sorphin | nod |
| 17:15.19 | sorphin | wish they'd make them not so damn expensive |
| 17:15.31 | sorphin | i hate having to spend $400+ for something all the time :P |
| 17:15.35 | TomW | I know that you are going to purchase the 20MHz model, I can feel it. :) |
| 17:15.52 | sorphin | no |
| 17:16.14 | TomW | sorphin: it is an investment for me, a scope I only use a few times a year (maybe 10..15), but when I need it, I need it. |
| 17:16.45 | sorphin | nod |
| 17:16.56 | sorphin | well, i'll see what gateway has tomorrow |
| 17:17.12 | sorphin | school had a thing for BK precision |
| 17:17.55 | TomW | Half the time I need to make measurements. Like on the TuxScreen IDE, I didn't understand the SA1100 data sheet as to chip select programming and I needed to measure the pulse width of the chip select to make sure it was > 250ns. |
| 17:18.11 | sorphin | nod |
| 17:18.11 | TomW | BK == cheap |
| 17:18.19 | sorphin | heh |
| 17:18.32 | TomW | BK == Heathkit == cheap == fragile. |
| 17:19.06 | sorphin | nod |
| 17:19.37 | TomW | I need a decent soldering iron, this radio shack shit sux. |
| 17:19.54 | sorphin | heh |
| 17:20.13 | sorphin | err.. dual wattage |
| 17:20.16 | TomW | the weller TC201 died and I had to grab one of those. I have to keep replacing the tips every week or so. |
| 17:20.37 | TomW | The weller, I had used the same tip for 5 years. |
| 17:20.39 | sorphin | i only have to replace the tips when i'm rough w/ em |
| 17:20.42 | sorphin | umm |
| 17:20.48 | sorphin | i wouldn't :P |
| 17:20.57 | sorphin | i had a weller |
| 17:21.02 | sorphin | biggest POS i'd ever used |
| 17:21.42 | TomW | I used the 30watt weller to do touchups on SMD (fine pitch) stuff. I works for me. |
| 17:21.52 | TomW | s/I works/it works/ |
| 17:21.57 | sorphin | i used to always use a 30watt |
| 17:22.05 | sorphin | now i rarely do |
| 17:22.19 | sorphin | unless i find the 15w isn't 'strong' enough |
| 17:22.25 | TomW | I have a teeny-tiny little 10 watt pencil that I bought, that thing sux. |
| 17:22.41 | sorphin | my 15w setting is usually enough |
| 17:22.43 | TomW | lousy for doing smd work. |
| 17:22.48 | sorphin | TomW: it's so funny |
| 17:22.52 | TomW | .. my tiny iron. |
| 17:22.56 | sorphin | the RS guy when i bought the tip |
| 17:23.11 | sorphin | he was trying to tell me the iron was gonna burn it up |
| 17:23.20 | sorphin | cuz i wanted to make sure it would physically fit |
| 17:23.22 | sorphin | heh |
| 17:23.29 | sorphin | duh, the iron is 15W too |
| 17:23.30 | sorphin | moron |
| 17:23.37 | sorphin | finally i got him to shut the fsck up |
| 17:23.46 | TomW | Well, the tips on my rs iron keep rounding off. |
| 17:24.04 | sorphin | mine too, but only cuz i try and sharpen them more :P |
| 17:24.08 | TomW | If I was going to just solder wire with it, it would be okay. |
| 17:24.53 | sorphin | TomW: was looking at microscopes a few weeks ago |
| 17:25.05 | sorphin | why can't it be simple to choose things? :P |
| 17:25.42 | TomW | with the 30 watt weller, I had taken one of the tips and filed it slightly so I could wet it with a pocket of solder, then I could get under the microscope and resolder the SMD leads. |
| 17:25.55 | sorphin | nod |
| 17:26.12 | TomW | yeah, those microscopes are not cheap! |
| 17:26.28 | sorphin | TomW: i doubt i'm doing anything near as advanced as you're doing ;p |
| 17:26.44 | sorphin | TomW: actaually it wasn't a cheap issue |
| 17:26.50 | sorphin | TomW: it was a wtf one do i want issue |
| 17:26.55 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: you out of town? |
| 17:27.03 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: umm |
| 17:27.07 | sorphin | he's still in nassau |
| 17:27.15 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: when did that happen |
| 17:27.15 | TomW | I have a 10x / 20x binocular unit that a friend loaned to me 'as long as you need it'. i.e. "it is not yours, I don't need it, but you use it" |
| 17:27.22 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: uh.. monday? |
| 17:28.16 | CosmicPenguin | ok |
| 17:28.52 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ya nassau |
| 17:29.01 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: got scott on the phone |
| 17:29.08 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ohh? |
| 17:29.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: whats he want now? |
| 17:29.28 | TomW | sorphin: you could probably get away with a child's toy 10x mono microscope. |
| 17:29.45 | sorphin | TomW: nod |
| 17:31.03 | TomW | uhhh, what am I going to do today? I got the quad uart samples from Phillips, I should see about the EP7312 samples. |
| 17:32.16 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: the moon and the stars |
| 17:32.24 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: actually, he wants to let me borrow a Z |
| 17:32.51 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: "please borrow my Z" :P |
| 17:38.49 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: here they come - more features |
| 17:39.12 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: plug your ears and just keep saying lalalalalal i can't hear you alalalalalala |
| 17:42.55 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: borrow a z? |
| 17:43.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: why i told him i was gonna send this one when i get back |
| 17:50.21 | sorphin | ppr: when's that anyways? |
| 17:50.49 | sorphin | prpplague: when's that anyways? |
| 17:56.59 | prpplague | sorphin: tuesday |
| 17:57.04 | sorphin | ah |
| 18:03.47 | chouimat | hey prpplague |
| 18:04.25 | prpplague | chouimat: hey |
| 18:04.46 | chouimat | prpplague: still in nassau? |
| 18:05.07 | prpplague | chouimat: yep |
| 18:05.13 | prpplague | chouimat: pretty much done |
| 18:05.22 | prpplague | chouimat: don't leave till monday |
| 18:05.31 | prpplague | chouimat: hopefully get a little time off |
| 18:06.01 | chouimat | prpplague: ok I'm fixing a little xinerama problem here and some advance networking stuff |
| 18:06.09 | kergoth | argh |
| 18:06.28 | chouimat | kergoth: got an order for 30 firewall/combo ... |
| 18:11.45 | chouimat | arrrgggggl gentoo didn't compile qt with xinerama support |
| 18:12.18 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: grrr... If I wasn't so damn moral, I would drop scott on his ass |
| 18:17.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: lol, hmm , like i did |
| 18:19.59 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: sigh |
| 18:20.14 | CosmicPenguin | prpplague: Maybe I'm not cut out for this consulting stuff - being a whore isn't as much fun as it sounds |
| 18:20.42 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: you're naive if you ever thought it would be ;) |
| 18:35.06 | CosmicPenguin | me naive? Never! |
| 18:36.01 | signal11 | CosmicPenguin: what is a "z |
| 18:36.03 | signal11 | " |
| 18:36.10 | sorphin | signal11: Zaurus |
| 18:36.14 | signal11 | ah cool |
| 18:36.31 | sorphin | signal11: one of those htings that i bricked ;p |
| 18:36.47 | signal11 | heh i hate it when that happens |
| 18:42.11 | chouimat | hmmmm is it me or today is boring like hell |
| 18:43.00 | sorphin | chouimat: it's not you, it IS boring like hell :P |
| 18:44.39 | chouimat | ok |
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| 19:21.53 | file | chouimat: boo |
| 19:24.08 | chouimat | later |
| 19:24.12 | chouimat | file: ? |
| 20:17.40 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: any reason why you aren't using rz and sz? |
| 20:18.51 | kergoth | ? |
| 20:18.55 | kergoth | lrzsz is in the system |
| 20:18.59 | kergoth | you mean the reason why the files are misnamed? |
| 20:19.04 | kergoth | not sure, i dont maintain that package |
| 20:19.06 | kergoth | it needs fixing though |
| 20:19.19 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: no, only lrb actually gets put on the device |
| 20:19.29 | kergoth | hmm |
| 20:19.33 | kergoth | ah |
| 20:19.35 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: which is wierd, since all the binaries seem tobe in the package |
| 20:19.40 | kergoth | hmm |
| 20:19.42 | CosmicPenguin | but I'm an ipkg newbie, so what the hell do I know? |
| 20:19.53 | kergoth | ipkg is just an ar archive with a data.tar.gz that contains the files |
| 20:19.59 | kergoth | not sure whats up, i'll check |
| 20:20.07 | CosmicPenguin | The binaries are in build/ipkgtmp/lrzsz-<version>/ |
| 20:20.13 | CosmicPenguin | so I assume thats the dealio |
| 20:20.17 | kergoth | so its something in the ipk creation |
| 20:28.48 | CosmicPenguin | I guess |
| 20:28.58 | CosmicPenguin | Anyway, as long as something is up there, I can use it |
| 20:29.07 | CosmicPenguin | I don't want to reflash over and over again just to get pixil working |
| 20:29.33 | kergoth | yeah, understandable |
| 20:29.53 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: aww.. why not? ;) |
| 20:32.22 | CosmicPenguin | I wish the CF would work - I assume its because I used Linux to make the dos disk |
| 20:32.40 | sorphin | heh |
| 20:33.06 | sorphin | why wouldn't CF work? |
| 20:34.05 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: it keeps crashing |
| 20:34.21 | CosmicPenguin | nah - its the bootloader |
| 20:34.36 | sorphin | heh |
| 20:34.50 | sorphin | Publication# |
| 20:34.50 | sorphin | 23711 |
| 20:34.50 | sorphin | Rev: |
| 20:34.50 | sorphin | A |
| 20:34.50 | sorphin | Amendment/ |
| 20:34.52 | sorphin | 0 |
| 20:34.54 | sorphin | Issue Date: |
| 20:34.56 | sorphin | May 25, 2000 |
| 20:34.58 | sorphin | Understanding Page Mode Flash Memory |
| 20:35.00 | sorphin | Devices |
| 20:35.02 | sorphin | grr |
| 20:35.06 | sorphin | well, those last 2 lines cover it |
| 20:35.13 | sorphin | "understanding page mode flash devices" |
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| 21:13.41 | CosmicPenguin | de code it ez mocking me |
| 21:13.55 | sorphin | huh? |
| 21:14.43 | sorphin | de code isn't mocking you |
| 21:14.55 | sorphin | greg is :P |
| 21:16.19 | CosmicPenguin | de screen is also not rotated |
| 21:30.04 | MonMotha | http://www.ee.fit.edu/courses/ece1552/ATutor.htm |
| 21:30.10 | MonMotha | can someone go there and tell me what they get? |
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| 21:49.31 | CosmicPenguin | mmmm.... loony toons |
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| 22:18.13 | *** join/#elinux TheMasterMind1 (foobar@h-68-166-75-7.MCLNVA23.covad.net) |
| 22:23.00 | *** join/#elinux GPSFan (~kenm@65.114.238.130) |
| 22:23.12 | sorphin | GPSFan: allo ken |
| 22:23.30 | GPSFan | sorphin: hi dan |
| 22:23.36 | sorphin | GPSFan: what's up? |
| 22:24.08 | GPSFan | sorphin: not much, trip to the "big city today", just got back.. |
| 22:24.28 | sorphin | nod |
| 22:24.54 | Morn | hi folks |
| 22:25.18 | sorphin | Morn: allo julie |
| 22:25.27 | sorphin | Morn: tried dvdshrink last night (1.03) |
| 22:25.35 | Morn | and? |
| 22:25.42 | sorphin | only got into 5 mins of my movie last night to check how it looked, but it looked good |
| 22:25.51 | Morn | cool |
| 22:29.21 | Morn | my doctor just ordered another Region 2 DVD for me to convert for him |
| 22:29.55 | kergoth | bkeg' |
| 22:30.03 | kergoth | ibot: thursday |
| 22:30.05 | | Thursday sucks, because it isnt friday (See friday). |
| 22:31.07 | sorphin | Morn: well, this is ntsc, but region 2 |
| 22:31.11 | sorphin | from hong kong |
| 22:31.24 | sorphin | kergoth: read your /m :P |
| 22:31.34 | kergoth | bleh, accidentally closed the window |
| 22:31.45 | Morn | ah, his were pal |
| 22:38.26 | *** join/#elinux ade|desk (~adrian@modem-3045.hyena.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 22:39.31 | sorphin | ade|desk: re |
| 22:39.57 | ade|desk | lo |
| 22:40.28 | ade|desk | was fed up with small laptop keyb .. so i setup my main box again |
| 22:41.02 | sorphin | nod |
| 22:41.05 | ade|desk | takes a while to un Uni a machines settings. |
| 22:41.29 | sorphin | nod |
| 22:42.17 | ade|desk | pesky proxies |
| 22:43.38 | ade|desk | grr |
| 22:44.21 | ade|desk | sorphin: so what have you been up to today ? |
| 22:44.54 | sorphin | ade|desk: pretending to work, read about how paged flash works, stuff like that |
| 22:45.24 | ade|desk | sorphin:sounds like a fun day |
| 22:45.48 | sorphin | nah, tomorrow's the fun.. i'm taking off ;) |
| 22:46.15 | ade|desk | now thats the way :) |
| 22:46.29 | *** join/#elinux Morn (~julie@h00045a64626e.ne.client2.attbi.com) |
| 22:46.56 | sorphin | Morn: re |
| 22:47.04 | Morn | re's |
| 22:48.57 | ade|desk | lo |
| 23:13.38 | CosmicPenguin | Wow - dvdview sucks! |
| 23:14.16 | ade|desk | ? |
| 23:14.22 | sorphin | ? |
| 23:15.34 | CosmicPenguin | dvdview: http://rachmaninoff.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/dvdview/ |
| 23:18.03 | sorphin | heh |
| 23:18.13 | sorphin | things |
| 23:18.31 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: this is for microwindows (of course) |
| 23:19.19 | sorphin | nod |
| 23:19.23 | sorphin | well, vlc is light weight |
| 23:20.21 | ade|desk | ish |
| 23:21.08 | CosmicPenguin | nothing like a C based video player running on a strongarm to remind you how badly you suck |
| 23:25.05 | sorphin | hehe |
| 23:39.22 | CosmicPenguin | kergoth: any idea how to handle this: /user/projects/ipaq/buildroot-oz/output/staging/include/bits/in.h:69: ANSI C++ forbids data member `ip_opts' with same name as enclosing class |
| 23:39.43 | kergoth | CosmicPenguin: CXXFLAGS+=-fpermissive |
| 23:40.13 | CosmicPenguin | Thats right |
| 23:40.15 | CosmicPenguin | Damn greg |
| 23:40.54 | sorphin | kergoth: guess that's a no and no |
| 23:41.21 | kergoth | err |
| 23:41.22 | kergoth | sorphin: yes, and no |
| 23:41.47 | CosmicPenguin | sorphin: Greg's complier is version 2.1.XX - it doesn't understand -fpermissive |
| 23:41.51 | CosmicPenguin | So I had to take it out |
| 23:41.58 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: nod |
| 23:42.12 | sorphin | CosmicPenguin: my no and no had to do w/ the /m i had sent to kergoth earlier |
| 23:42.15 | file[argh] | Greetings fellow human beans. |
| 23:47.51 | *** part/#elinux r2d2 (~r2d2@HSE-MTL-ppp75390.qc.sympatico.ca) |
| 23:55.29 | CosmicPenguin | 131071.5 kbps |
| 23:55.39 | CosmicPenguin | And Greg thought that would run on a Ipaq? |
| 23:56.08 | kergoth | 2.1.xx? jeeze. stick to erikm's 2.95 toolchain :) |
| 23:56.46 | kergoth | woo, buildroot can build gcc 2.95.4 toolchains properly now. finally. Now to get uclibc building and working properly.. hmm |