| 00:43.56 | *** join/#edev prpplague (~prpplague@ppp-70-242-118-38.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
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| 01:32.26 | g1powermac | anyone know of a cheap hackable tablet with some kind of expansion slot so as to allow me to install a xbee module? |
| 01:33.32 | SpeedEvil | Many cheap tablets can so USB host |
| 01:33.35 | SpeedEvil | do |
| 01:33.58 | prpplague | g1powermac: tons of chinesse stuff |
| 01:34.04 | g1powermac | would like to have it inside the tablet though |
| 01:34.13 | prpplague | g1powermac: archos tablet with an omap44xx is a pretty good choice |
| 01:34.18 | prpplague | g1powermac: firmware is open |
| 01:34.31 | prpplague | g1powermac: iirc it is in the $350 range |
| 01:34.35 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 01:34.37 | SpeedEvil | I recently got some birthday goodies. |
| 01:34.42 | g1powermac | was looking at that opensourcemid |
| 01:35.03 | SpeedEvil | DS1820s, hot-tweezers, and an android tablet - the wopad i7. |
| 01:35.10 | SpeedEvil | It's surprisingly usable. |
| 01:35.12 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: nice |
| 01:35.15 | g1powermac | the opensourcemid has a mini pci express slot |
| 01:35.27 | prpplague | g1powermac: the archos tablet is a pretty darn good choice |
| 01:35.32 | g1powermac | was wondering if there is anything cheaper |
| 01:35.50 | SpeedEvil | You need to ideally find something with a large community round it. |
| 01:35.57 | prpplague | g1powermac: as you get cheaper, the hackable portions get a little nasty |
| 01:36.02 | SpeedEvil | And that hopefully won't get cancelled. |
| 01:36.16 | g1powermac | prpplague, ahh |
| 01:36.27 | prpplague | g1powermac: archos tablet is a good trade off |
| 01:36.31 | prpplague | g1powermac: good community |
| 01:36.34 | prpplague | g1powermac: good support |
| 01:36.35 | SpeedEvil | In some cases, not as cheap, but more hackable can be a reasonable trade. |
| 01:36.39 | prpplague | g1powermac: quality product |
| 01:36.47 | SpeedEvil | For example, going to beagle or pandaboard and an external LCD. |
| 01:36.47 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: exactly |
| 01:37.02 | g1powermac | prpplague, what kind of expansion ability does it have? |
| 01:37.08 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: the archos tablet is basically a pandaboard with lcd |
| 01:37.13 | SpeedEvil | Neat. |
| 01:37.32 | prpplague | g1powermac: they dont doc it, but there is a pretty good amount, like i said to SpeedEvil , it is basically a pandaboard |
| 01:37.49 | SpeedEvil | Also - you can cheat. |
| 01:37.56 | SpeedEvil | xbee is serial isn't it? |
| 01:37.59 | prpplague | g1powermac: full source for the archos is available |
| 01:38.05 | SpeedEvil | $10 bluetooth->serial thingy. |
| 01:38.15 | SpeedEvil | And you're there, on any tablet with bluetooth. |
| 01:38.23 | SpeedEvil | Then it's a simple matter of programming. |
| 01:38.40 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, true, but really would like it inside |
| 01:38.51 | SpeedEvil | Inside is a problem. |
| 01:39.03 | SpeedEvil | Simply as for obvious reasons in most tablets, there is almost no volume. |
| 01:39.12 | g1powermac | prpplague, thats cool |
| 01:39.12 | SpeedEvil | Unless you go x86. |
| 01:39.30 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, yea, thats why I was wondering if it had internal expansion ability |
| 01:39.33 | SpeedEvil | And for example take an older thinkpad tablet, swap out the hard drive for a stubby SSD, and do something internal. |
| 01:39.38 | g1powermac | like the opensourcemid |
| 01:41.57 | prpplague | g1powermac: on the other end you can get something like a flytouch3 from china and hack away, but you are going to spend a lot of time tinkering |
| 01:43.09 | prpplague | http://www.merimobiles.com/Flytouch_3_1Ghz_Android_2_2_Built_in_GPS_512MB_4_p/meri0546.htm |
| 01:43.18 | prpplague | you can pick one up for about $89 USD |
| 01:43.51 | g1powermac | now thats cheap |
| 01:44.07 | SpeedEvil | How much is your time worth? |
| 01:44.26 | g1powermac | scarily not much more than the xbee plus atmel chip with batteries for the sensor readers |
| 01:44.33 | SpeedEvil | If you're gonna spend a hundred hours hacking it, ... |
| 01:44.43 | g1powermac | SpeedEvil, I agree |
| 01:45.46 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: well you have to weight it against what you want to learn of course |
| 01:46.02 | prpplague | has spent years on some $20USD gadgets |
| 01:46.04 | SpeedEvil | Indeed. |
| 01:46.16 | SpeedEvil | Spending a hundred hours hacking it can be fun. |
| 01:46.35 | SpeedEvil | But if you need to get on with your project, and can't, because you diddn't get it working even after that, ... |
| 01:46.45 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: eggxactly |
| 01:46.48 | g1powermac | that is true |
| 01:46.56 | g1powermac | rather make the hacking easy |
| 01:48.11 | SpeedEvil | Oh for a world where everything had to come with schematics. |
| 01:48.26 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: hehe |
| 01:48.26 | g1powermac | that'd be awesome |
| 01:48.29 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: no fun in that |
| 01:48.33 | g1powermac | that and open firmware |
| 01:48.49 | SpeedEvil | I want to hack everything, and it frustrates me. |
| 01:48.59 | SpeedEvil | My breadmaker, microwave, ... |
| 01:49.04 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:49.47 | prpplague | SpeedEvil: so do i, but i made a promise to myself decades ago not to get side tracked with projects that don't further my career |
| 01:50.16 | g1powermac | hmm, tablet with zigbee installed: http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Sharp-RWT107-and-TazTag-TazTab/ |
| 01:50.52 | SpeedEvil | Then there is the fun question of what APIs does the software expose. |
| 01:51.02 | prpplague | g1powermac: no no no, you want omap4, hehe |
| 01:51.25 | prpplague | g1powermac: if you seriously want to do some hacking, i'll get you a board to start hacking on |
| 01:51.46 | g1powermac | prpplague, you find me some way to get zigbee on one, I'll use one :-) |
| 01:52.13 | prpplague | g1powermac: which zigbee module are you looking at? |
| 01:52.42 | g1powermac | right now the series 1 xbee |
| 01:52.59 | prpplague | looks |
| 01:53.37 | g1powermac | http://www.digi.com/products/wireless-wired-embedded-solutions/zigbee-rf-modules/point-multipoint-rfmodules/xbee-series1-module#overview |
| 01:53.56 | g1powermac | they're not *technically* zigbee |
| 01:54.09 | g1powermac | its a simplified zigbee |
| 01:54.27 | g1powermac | to allow basically wireless serial comm |
| 01:55.14 | prpplague | g1powermac: i'll get you a pandaboard , xbee pro, and some level shifters, but you have to document the ENTIRE process on elinux.org |
| 01:55.36 | g1powermac | woah |
| 01:55.40 | g1powermac | you sure? |
| 01:56.06 | g1powermac | though I'm not using the pro modules |
| 01:56.14 | prpplague | you should ask yourself if you are sure.... |
| 01:56.25 | prpplague | http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8690 |
| 01:57.11 | g1powermac | I'm not using that one, they cost too much per unit |
| 01:57.13 | g1powermac | http://www.sparkfun.com/products/8665 |
| 01:57.20 | g1powermac | and yea, I'd love to document it |
| 01:57.26 | g1powermac | it may take me 6 months though |
| 01:57.36 | g1powermac | but this is the slow season for me |
| 01:57.48 | prpplague | g1powermac: just as long as there are regular updates |
| 01:57.55 | prpplague | g1powermac: you got soldering tools? |
| 01:58.00 | g1powermac | plenty |
| 01:58.09 | g1powermac | packed away, but got lots of goodies |
| 01:58.31 | g1powermac | would you mind if I document the sensor dev part too on the same site? |
| 01:59.28 | prpplague | g1powermac: of course! send me an email to x0132446@ti.com with your complete proposal and i'll make the arragements |
| 01:59.46 | g1powermac | k, I'll write something up in the morning |
| 01:59.52 | g1powermac | thank you very much |
| 02:00.33 | g1powermac | btw, thats one wild address :-) |
| 02:00.53 | g1powermac | and I guess you now work for TI? |
| 02:01.00 | prpplague | g1powermac: contracting for TI |
| 02:01.05 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 02:01.22 | prpplague | g1powermac: they have some procedure to setup an alias for your email address, but i have never gotten around to doing that |
| 02:01.29 | g1powermac | last time I was around you were still working at that handheld company |
| 02:02.27 | prpplague | g1powermac: yea, they got hit hard by the recession |
| 02:02.50 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 02:04.00 | g1powermac | I'm glad our shoe store has held pretty well during the recession |
| 02:04.43 | g1powermac | though I have to tell you all a warning, expect major price increases on everything in the next 6 months |
| 02:05.05 | g1powermac | our vendors have been increasing prices by wide margins |
| 02:05.16 | g1powermac | for new coming products |
| 02:05.23 | prpplague | g1powermac: yea |
| 02:05.30 | prpplague | g1powermac: thats what i hear all over the place |
| 02:05.41 | g1powermac | its shocking |
| 02:06.10 | prpplague | g1powermac: most of the people who aren't dealing with the business end of things aren't seeing it right now |
| 02:06.29 | g1powermac | yup, it takes about 6 months before it hits the shelves directly |
| 02:08.18 | g1powermac | the hard part for us smaller retailers is that the large ones can hold off increasing retail prices longer than we can |
| 02:14.25 | g1powermac | anyway, I'm off, thank you again prpplague |
| 03:55.05 | Mirell | I need to learn Sanskrit... |
| 03:55.23 | prpplague | Mirell: hehe |
| 03:56.22 | Mirell | I do! |
| 03:56.43 | prpplague | wants to learn hindi |
| 04:31.44 | wmat | mandarin would be more prudent |
| 04:32.09 | prpplague | wmat: hehe |
| 04:32.50 | wmat | prpplague: you dropped out of the MV channel; I was about to mock you ;) |
| 04:33.18 | prpplague | wmat: what? someone mocking me? |
| 04:33.29 | prpplague | wmat: that is just unheard of |
| 04:33.47 | wmat | i usually just mock myself |
| 04:34.10 | prpplague | wmat: hehe |
| 04:34.27 | prpplague | wmat: hehe, you hear what my wife said about my presentation? |
| 04:34.54 | wmat | no, what? |
| 04:35.16 | prpplague | "that guy in the front row was a real jerk, why were you so nice to him?" |
| 04:35.23 | prpplague | hehe it was av500 |
| 04:35.29 | wmat | haha,perfect! |
| 04:35.49 | wmat | av500 is awesome |
| 04:38.10 | wmat | he wasn't that bad was he (/me hasn't watched it yet) |
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| 04:42.21 | prpplague | wmat: watch the last 2 minutes |
| 04:42.52 | wmat | fires up X |
| 04:47.07 | wmat | you owned him |
| 04:47.22 | prpplague | hehe |
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| 12:39.16 | g1powermac | that panda board is something. . .didn't get a chance to look at the specs of it last night |
| 12:42.26 | g1powermac | gonna need some kind of lcd+touchscreen with it though |
| 13:00.53 | g1powermac | prpplague, email sent |
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| 16:07.42 | landley | There are a surprising number of random stabs at BSD licensed busyboxoids. |
| 16:08.18 | landley | I've been pointed at beastiebox.sf.net: 44 commands and 700k. Uh-huh. |
| 16:08.32 | landley | sbase doesn't appear to have a web page. |
| 16:09.09 | landley | crunchgen busyboxifies arbitrary programs via build magic. That's gonna be small and efficient, oh yeah. |
| 16:09.22 | kergoth | interesting, hadn't heard of beastiebox. neat |
| 16:09.37 | landley | kergoth: it gives me another "low hanging fruit" command list. |
| 16:10.01 | kergoth | nods |
| 16:10.46 | landley | But their ps is unlikely to work on linux, they seem to have inclucded vi and tar verbatim, ping requires root access and is thus generally suid and I'd be surprised if they have suid permissions handling infrastructur... |
| 16:11.22 | landley | Interesting, but the question asked on the new toybox list was whether I'd want to copy code from any of them. So far, probably not, but it's worth a closer look... |
| 16:11.35 | kergoth | Heh, I wouldn't be surprised if some people still use tinylogin, just to avoid the suid busybox stuff |
| 16:15.02 | landley | I need to add a "make suidconfig" and "make nosuidconfig" to toybox. |
| 16:15.08 | landley | So you can do them as two separate binaries if you want to. |
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| 16:15.36 | landley | Really the suid dropping logic is if you have commands that require it and commands that shouldn't have it in the same selection set. Not impossible to autodetect... |
| 16:15.42 | landley | Hiya prpplague. I'm ruminating about toybox. |
| 16:15.51 | landley | Did you catch the new mailing list? :) |
| 16:16.20 | prpplague | landley: sorry no, url? |
| 16:16.29 | landley | I haven't updated the news feed on http://landley.net/toybox but the mailing list link on the left is updated. |
| 16:16.34 | landley | As is the license page. :) |
| 16:18.11 | prpplague | looks |
| 16:18.48 | prpplague | landley: dandy |
| 16:18.57 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 16:19.33 | g1powermac | hey prpplague |
| 16:19.44 | prpplague | g1powermac: greetings |
| 16:20.06 | g1powermac | sent the email this morning |
| 16:20.31 | prpplague | g1powermac: yep got it |
| 16:20.42 | g1powermac | cool |
| 16:22.23 | g1powermac | is it enough info? |
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| 16:28.07 | g1powermac | that pandaboard has some amazing specs to it |
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| 17:51.52 | g1powermac | anyone know what it would take to charge a nimh battery with a solar panel? |
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| 18:17.47 | wmat | a sunny day ;) |
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| 21:50.12 | MonMotha | g1powermac: Ni-MH batteries have a somewhat complicated charging cycle. I'd recommend using a pre-made charge controller |
| 21:50.45 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 21:51.01 | g1powermac | MonMotha, I can't find one |
| 21:51.16 | g1powermac | I've been looking around for premade charge controller boards |
| 21:51.30 | MonMotha | I know there are lots of chips floating around that do it |
| 21:51.36 | MonMotha | I'm sure someone sells a pre-made module |
| 21:52.03 | MonMotha | doing it from a solar source in the most efficient manner possible is a little more complicated since you also want to track the MPP of the solar cell |
| 21:52.38 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 21:52.50 | g1powermac | I had found this: http://www.reuk.co.uk/Solar-Battery-Charging.htm |
| 21:52.56 | MonMotha | but you can do it without that |
| 21:53.06 | g1powermac | but now I wonder if they assume a different type of battery |
| 21:53.37 | MonMotha | yech, that's an ugly (and perhaps even dangerous) way to do it |
| 21:53.46 | MonMotha | you'll probably destroy an Ni-MH pretty quickly that way |
| 21:53.56 | g1powermac | uh ha |
| 21:54.23 | g1powermac | ok, so need to find something else then |
| 21:54.51 | g1powermac | do you know of a pdip chip that can do this? |
| 21:55.07 | MonMotha | look through maxim's catalog |
| 21:55.17 | g1powermac | already did |
| 21:55.22 | g1powermac | nothing specific for solar |
| 21:55.36 | MonMotha | they probably won't have anything that specific |
| 21:55.44 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 21:55.51 | MonMotha | but you can do this reasonably if you just have good end-of-charge detection |
| 21:56.00 | MonMotha | Ni-MH are very sensitive to overcharge |
| 21:56.32 | MonMotha | but an ideal solution require several pieces |
| 21:56.51 | MonMotha | you need to know where on the charge curve you're at, so you know how to charge (or stop charging) the battery, and you need to track the MPP on the solar cell |
| 21:57.15 | MonMotha | which may require a converter of some sort |
| 21:57.16 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 21:57.23 | MonMotha | but you can integrate that with the charger |
| 21:58.11 | g1powermac | hmm, no pdip stuff from maxim for nimh batteries |
| 21:58.35 | MonMotha | DIP packaging is getting much less common |
| 21:58.46 | g1powermac | ya |
| 21:58.58 | MonMotha | circuits are more complicated, the parasitics on those packages preclude high speed, and cheap 2-layer prototype PCBs can be had for lik e$50 |
| 21:59.31 | MonMotha | and nobody's using them in production, anymore |
| 22:00.33 | MonMotha | I think they're mostly still made to help people prototype things, and due to the cheap PCBs, that's getting less of an issue |
| 22:07.24 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 22:07.39 | MonMotha | fwiw, you can do this with a microcontroller and a few passives |
| 22:07.54 | MonMotha | but the firmware is complicated as it's a very real-time thing |
| 22:08.34 | MonMotha | the MPP tracking isn't required, but you won't get the highest possible efficiency during fast charge without it |
| 22:09.02 | g1powermac | hmm, I have no need for fast charging |
| 22:09.23 | MonMotha | well, "fast charge" is relative |
| 22:09.29 | g1powermac | I just want it to trickle charge via solar panel |
| 22:09.45 | MonMotha | well, in that case, you just need reasonable end-of-charge indication |
| 22:09.55 | MonMotha | then cut off the solar power |
| 22:10.05 | MonMotha | i.e. with a FET |
| 22:10.16 | MonMotha | you can probably use an off-the-shelf controller for that pretty easily |
| 22:11.10 | g1powermac | these controllers are fairly complicated, at least the ones from maxim |
| 22:11.18 | g1powermac | with temperature sensors and crap |
| 22:11.50 | MonMotha | charging Ni-MH is complicated :) |
| 22:11.58 | MonMotha | but if you just want to trickle, you probably don't need temp sensing |
| 22:11.59 | g1powermac | what about ni-cd? |
| 22:12.14 | MonMotha | Ni-Cd is somewhat simpler, but just a sucky chemistry to begin with |
| 22:12.29 | MonMotha | oddly, Li-Ion is one of the simplest to charge, but it's also the most dangerous if you over charge it |
| 22:12.40 | MonMotha | and good old Lead Acid is just plain forgiving |
| 22:12.57 | g1powermac | do they even make lead acid in AA format? |
| 22:13.10 | MonMotha | I don't think so |
| 22:13.17 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 22:13.18 | MonMotha | it's not very amenable to small formfactors |
| 22:13.22 | g1powermac | yea |
| 22:13.23 | MonMotha | you can get pretty small gel cells, thoug |
| 22:13.24 | MonMotha | h |
| 22:14.47 | MonMotha | the problem with Ni-MH is that it's hard to tell when it's done charging, and overcharging it is really bad |
| 22:15.40 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 22:16.18 | MonMotha | dT/dt is one of the easiest ways to tell when it's done, but that does require temperature sensing, and it really only works well with "fast" charging |
| 22:16.38 | g1powermac | so how do you trickle charge these things? |
| 22:17.27 | g1powermac | and realistically, how much of a percent of the total mA capacity constitutes a trickle charge? |
| 22:18.16 | MonMotha | that's getting a bit outside my domain |
| 22:18.33 | MonMotha | there are other charge termination detection methods that would work better with dT/dt |
| 22:18.41 | MonMotha | you planning to put this inside or outside? |
| 22:18.58 | MonMotha | since using it outdoors can also mess with dT/dt |
| 22:19.22 | g1powermac | outside |
| 22:19.50 | MonMotha | yeah, that may also cause problems |
| 22:21.41 | MonMotha | I think you can use -deltaV termination on Ni-MH |
| 22:21.59 | MonMotha | basically, you watch the battery voltage and when it actually starts to decrease despite continued charging attempts, you know you're done |
| 22:22.29 | MonMotha | all this said, if you know your discharge rate, you can just set your charge rate to basically match it |
| 22:22.38 | MonMotha | then you don't need control |
| 22:22.45 | MonMotha | not the nicest thing ever, but it'll work |
| 22:23.12 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 22:23.43 | MonMotha | and you can watch the voltage at charge initiation; if it's unusually low, you can up the charge rate a little for that cycle |
| 22:23.57 | MonMotha | that works as long as your discharge rate is relatively constant, and you're looking at long term operation |
| 22:24.16 | g1powermac | thats alot of logic right there |
| 22:24.37 | MonMotha | eh, not too bad |
| 22:24.38 | g1powermac | I'm shocked really that sparkfun doesn't have anything for this |
| 22:25.25 | MonMotha | well, how much is it worth to you? :) |
| 22:27.01 | g1powermac | wait a sec, I found something: http://www.futurlec.com/Maxim/MAX713CPEpr.shtml |
| 22:27.46 | g1powermac | not sure why that didn't pop up on the maxim site |
| 22:28.32 | MonMotha | it's obsolete |
| 22:28.50 | MonMotha | well, NRND at least |
| 22:31.47 | *** join/#edev Nu^253r (~LessIsMor@unaffiliated/nu253r/x-0655220) |
| 22:34.58 | g1powermac | MonMotha, I wonder how those little led outdoor solar lights charge their batteries |
| 22:35.30 | MonMotha | g1powermac: my guess would be just a fixed rate at ~1/2 the drawdown rate |
| 22:35.39 | MonMotha | they have some pretty lax requirements |
| 22:35.50 | MonMotha | they know the draw, and it's OK if the battery runs out before the night is over |
| 22:35.59 | MonMotha | so they can err on the side of undercharging the battery |
| 22:38.27 | g1powermac | I wonder how they charge sub 32F |
| 22:38.54 | MonMotha | Ni-MH can be charged below freezing, IIRC |
| 22:38.58 | MonMotha | that's a Li-Ion problem |
| 22:39.03 | g1powermac | according to this one datasheet, the controller shuts off at 32f |
| 22:39.49 | MonMotha | well, they probably also use Ni-Cd (it's cheap) |
| 22:39.58 | MonMotha | and I'm pretty sure you can charge Ni-Cd below freezing |
| 22:40.36 | MonMotha | I know charging Li-Ion below freezing is a major no-no, but I didn't think it was a problem on Nickel chemistries |
| 22:45.29 | *** join/#edev SterNiX (~LessIsMor@unaffiliated/nu253r/x-0655220) |
| 23:07.04 | Mirell | You blew something up? |
| 23:07.06 | Mirell | Way to dgo! |
| 23:07.09 | Mirell | go! |
| 23:10.14 | g1powermac | Mirell, not yet, but may shortly ;-) |
| 23:11.14 | Mirell | Aww |
| 23:11.18 | Mirell | Go Boom Go |
| 23:11.38 | g1powermac | lets hook some nimh cells to 120v AC woo! |
| 23:13.55 | landley | MonMotha/g1powermac: there's a great video on how lithium ion batteries and supercapacitors work, by the way: http://t.co/lGp5hjPF |
| 23:18.15 | g1powermac | woo, the guys at #sparkfun have been helpful |
| 23:18.16 | g1powermac | http://www.ti.com/product/bq2000 |
| 23:28.56 | g1powermac | well, this is a change of events |
| 23:29.05 | g1powermac | I have been told to buy a smart phone |
| 23:29.15 | g1powermac | any suggestions on the best hackable one? |
| 23:43.03 | SpeedEvil | I want to say the nokia n9. |
| 23:43.05 | SpeedEvil | But I can't/. |
| 23:43.11 | SpeedEvil | hugs his n900. |
| 23:44.04 | g1powermac | wonders if prpplague were here he'd suggest the pandaboard with a gsm module attached ;-) |
| 23:46.58 | landley | I was pretty happy with the Nexus One Google sold directly (although I got mine as a giveaway), but it was discontinued. :P |
| 23:47.27 | landley | I do note that Hexagon support just went into the 3.1 kernel, so anything based on Qualcomm's snapdragon SOC has _two_ processors you can run Linux on now. :) |
| 23:51.13 | *** join/#edev GPSFan (~kenm@64.92.145.112) |
| 23:51.13 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 23:52.40 | *** join/#edev avinashhm (~avinash-h@192.94.92.14) |
| 23:54.41 | calculus | g1powermac: I think the openmoko guys are trying that with omap4/pandaboard |
| 23:55.14 | g1powermac | calculus, why doesn't that surprise me? :-) |
| 23:55.35 | g1powermac | though if they pull it off, it will be pretty cool |