| 00:32.18 | *** join/#edev g1powermac_PB (n=g1powerm@unaffiliated/g1powermac) |
| 00:34.06 | Lars_G | I love the new era. I'm watching MIT engineering lectures online |
| 00:36.32 | g1powermac_PB | oh nice |
| 00:42.38 | Mirell | I now have a copy of my check card on blank white cardstock. |
| 00:45.17 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-002Spring-2007/VideoLectures/index.htm |
| 00:45.24 | Lars_G | I'm starting with 6-002 |
| 00:45.46 | g1powermac_PB | kewl |
| 00:46.02 | Lars_G | those are the videos of course, notes and material are available too |
| 00:46.17 | g1powermac_PB | wow, these are nice |
| 00:46.18 | Lars_G | But I like to see humans speaking, and even with his thick accent I like how the guy explains stuff |
| 00:47.38 | ds2 | so it has come down to enrolling is just a prereq to buying your degree? |
| 00:48.03 | Lars_G | ds2: I think this is nice not bad. |
| 00:48.17 | Lars_G | ds2: lots of people around the world get to study stuff they couldn'tve otherwise. |
| 00:48.21 | ds2 | not saying it is bad |
| 00:48.34 | ds2 | more of questioning the idea of degrees |
| 00:48.46 | Lars_G | And the university keeps an income being a "certifier" of sorts... for an employer it's not the same saying "I saw some MIT videos" to saying "I have a degree from MIT" |
| 00:49.12 | ds2 | like what is the difference between a guy who buys a BSEE after sitting down and watching all the videos required for a MIT BSEE |
| 00:49.13 | Lars_G | Well the degree still holds water. you might learn a lot, or very little from these online courseware. you still need a competent body to certify your knowledge |
| 00:49.54 | ds2 | so does that mean I can sell a BSEE for a fraction of the cost of tuition by just having people watch the video and take tests a I administer? |
| 00:50.07 | ds2 | (and have it be equiv.) |
| 00:51.20 | ds2 | UCSD is basically doing that - you attend the "lecture" at a trade show; write it up, pay UCSD and they give you credit for it |
| 00:51.29 | Mirell | Mmm. |
| 00:51.59 | Mirell | From what I've learned, from a bachelor's, just having to suffer through four years of a real school, show up for classes, et cetera, means a lot more than a specialized degree online. |
| 00:52.29 | *** join/#edev roxfan2 (n=dunno@135.48-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 00:52.34 | Mirell | Because I majored in Linguistics, which has jack to do with my first job (which I'm still at), managing servers for electronic payment cards. |
| 00:52.52 | ds2 | the underlying thing I am getting at is all this is really devaluing the idea of a degree |
| 00:53.09 | Mirell | Yah. |
| 00:53.18 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: got into blob, http://www.pastebin.ca/1012232 |
| 00:54.29 | Lars_G | ds2: No it wont be equiv since your institution doesn't has the history and status of MIT |
| 00:55.22 | ds2 | Lars_G: how is that "shown"? the signature of the president/chancellor/etc? |
| 00:55.40 | ds2 | isn't the point of that peice of paper to say the person knows XYZ? |
| 00:55.56 | Lars_G | ds2: Think it this way... if you generate a Certificate Authority root certificate by hand, and then generate certificates with it using the same encription bitsize as Verisign does. do you think you can sell your certificates as being equivalent to Verisign's? |
| 00:56.16 | ds2 | yep. sure can |
| 00:56.21 | Lars_G | ds2: Yes, it is. and the validity of that piece of paper comes from the entity that backs it up. |
| 00:56.50 | ds2 | a CA root cert is nothing more then someone saying I agree with your beliefs. and I certainly don't trust someone who will sign stuff solely on the ability to put up green stuff |
| 00:57.01 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: awesome |
| 00:57.44 | Lars_G | ds2: The piece of paper doesn't just say "This person knows XYZ", the piece of paper says "We X, backed by our history doing Y and Z, certify that this person knows K" |
| 00:58.28 | Lars_G | a Certification of knowing XYZ from a small or online institution doesn't carries the same weight as the same certification from MIT |
| 00:59.10 | ds2 | with MIT that argument might hold water... donno about it if you replace MIT with a state univ |
| 00:59.11 | Lars_G | Because thorough work, and proven standards, MIT has proven their certifications are given to people who know XYZ in a more effective manner. |
| 00:59.22 | g1powermac_PB | agrees with Lars_G on that |
| 00:59.31 | Lars_G | Ah yeah lower the level to smaller univerisites and the thing foggies. |
| 00:59.56 | g1powermac_PB | that analogy still works with the smaller schools |
| 01:00.07 | ds2 | not just smaller; too many shannaigans from the state univ. esp. the ones around here (CA) |
| 01:00.47 | g1powermac_PB | well, shenanigans aside, it should still work |
| 01:01.12 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: The shennanigans undermine the universitie's value as a certifier of knowledge |
| 01:01.24 | ds2 | when UCSD is basically selling credits and accediations |
| 01:01.27 | ds2 | ... |
| 01:01.36 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: of course, but unfortunately it happens |
| 01:03.03 | Lars_G | then the university in question and it's degree become superfluous like ds2 said |
| 01:03.38 | Lars_G | But it'd be superfluous wether you study the course in there, and buy the credits. or study online from the MIT and buy the credits there... |
| 01:03.44 | Lars_G | or don't study at all and buy the fucking credits |
| 01:05.11 | g1powermac_PB | ya |
| 01:05.27 | g1powermac_PB | ok, these videos are just freikin awesome |
| 01:05.40 | MonMotha | this is why there accreditation organizations for schools of higher learning |
| 01:06.04 | g1powermac_PB | MonMotha: that unfortunately doesn't help sometimes |
| 01:06.06 | MonMotha | MIT is one of the few engineering schools in the USA that isn't accredited by ABET, for example |
| 01:06.14 | MonMotha | but they are well enough known that people don't care |
| 01:06.15 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave123_@ppp-70-245-138-220.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) |
| 01:06.18 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 01:06.19 | g1powermac_PB | wb prpplague |
| 01:06.22 | prpplague | thanks |
| 01:06.40 | prpplague | just got back from a musical tribute to mexico, man was it fun |
| 01:06.41 | MonMotha | g1powermac_PB: depends on the organization doing the accrediting. Like schools, some are far more "trusted" than others |
| 01:06.43 | prpplague | NOT |
| 01:06.46 | g1powermac_PB | is watching the MIT open courseware videos |
| 01:07.25 | g1powermac_PB | MonMotha: true, but really it doesn't really help either way unless means something to your future employer who is hiring you |
| 01:07.35 | g1powermac_PB | unless *it |
| 01:07.59 | prpplague | GPSFan you get any more cool info from your uart? |
| 01:08.10 | g1powermac_PB | ya, he gained access to blog |
| 01:08.13 | g1powermac_PB | err, *blob |
| 01:08.23 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB trying to decide what kind of connector to use |
| 01:08.27 | prpplague | yea? |
| 01:08.29 | prpplague | cool |
| 01:08.29 | g1powermac_PB | man, my fingers always, always, type blog instead of blob |
| 01:08.37 | prpplague | yea? |
| 01:08.39 | prpplague | hehe |
| 01:08.48 | g1powermac_PB | http://www.pastebin.ca/1012232 |
| 01:08.48 | prpplague | blob needs to go in favor of apex, hehe |
| 01:08.53 | g1powermac_PB | heh |
| 01:09.12 | prpplague | lovely |
| 01:09.20 | prpplague | looks like a good break thru then |
| 01:09.28 | prpplague | maybe it will spark some more dev |
| 01:09.33 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: really unsure about the connector |
| 01:11.15 | g1powermac_PB | yea, I hope so |
| 01:11.31 | g1powermac_PB | with jtag now we can completely replace the zipit system |
| 01:11.36 | ds2 | prpplague: where does redboot sit in your scheme of things? above uboot? |
| 01:12.04 | g1powermac_PB | we should also be able to 'find' what on the expansion port without doing their restricted wiki |
| 01:12.13 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: At least you don't have a second degree ingversioning like me. |
| 01:12.31 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: how so? |
| 01:12.40 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: part of thinking faster than I can type. I somehow end up switching ng on lot's of words when I'm hyper. |
| 01:12.47 | Lars_G | for example: doign. |
| 01:12.59 | Lars_G | it's a plague of mine. |
| 01:13.06 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: heh, well, I tend to skip entire words |
| 01:13.20 | g1powermac_PB | I'll think of the word and then completely skip writing it |
| 01:13.55 | g1powermac_PB | then I make some utterly weird typos, like i once typed 'awesome' instead of 'assume' |
| 01:15.22 | g1powermac_PB | I think sometimes my fingers have their own mind ;-) |
| 01:18.26 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: I wonder, you think there might be a way to get this update posted at linuxdevices? |
| 01:19.45 | g1powermac_PB | I'd would love to drum up some new devs now that it has been opened |
| 01:20.31 | GPSFan | prpplague: http://www.paonia.com/~kenm/Pix/images/Zipit/Z2/PICT1108.JPG |
| 01:25.46 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: where is that black wire going? |
| 01:25.54 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: ground |
| 01:26.19 | g1powermac_PB | you just scratched some of the soldermask off some of the ground fill? |
| 01:26.25 | GPSFan | prpplague: I tried running the lcd test, got lots of info then it seemed to hang. |
| 01:26.28 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: yep |
| 01:26.32 | g1powermac_PB | k |
| 01:27.24 | g1powermac_PB | man, these videos are good |
| 01:27.30 | g1powermac_PB | watching the one about op amps |
| 01:27.37 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: I'll be interested in the reactions on #zipit when this gets out. |
| 01:27.59 | g1powermac_PB | yea, I'm wondering how i should break the news over there |
| 01:28.45 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: cul, it's been a long stressful day, time for some tv and zzzz's |
| 01:28.59 | g1powermac_PB | I just know I'll be getting something from drmikecrowe about it :-) |
| 01:29.07 | g1powermac_PB | k, cya |
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| 01:48.51 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:49.30 | g1powermac_PB | heya RobotGuy |
| 01:49.49 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Hi |
| 01:52.48 | g1powermac_PB | ponders how he can drum more interest in the zipit now that the jtag port has been found |
| 01:53.47 | RobotGuy | Has it definitely been found? |
| 01:54.17 | g1powermac_PB | about 90% sure, though it hasn't been tested yet |
| 01:54.26 | RobotGuy | I wouldn't want to go through all you've gone through to hack it. |
| 01:54.26 | g1powermac_PB | the serial port has been found and tested though |
| 01:55.13 | g1powermac_PB | heh, well now with this knowledge in hand, its super simple to hack it |
| 01:55.17 | RobotGuy | I'm more interested in something based on the S3C2440A. |
| 01:55.43 | RobotGuy | How fast is that PXA270? |
| 01:55.50 | g1powermac_PB | 312mhz |
| 01:56.17 | RobotGuy | That would probably be at least as good as a 400 MHz 2440A |
| 01:56.26 | g1powermac_PB | prolly |
| 01:56.42 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: Send me a free one. |
| 01:56.42 | RobotGuy | Prpbably better. It has a complete camera interface? |
| 01:56.53 | g1powermac_PB | supposedly |
| 01:56.54 | Lars_G | That'd interest me |
| 01:57.01 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: hehe, I only got one :-) |
| 01:57.06 | Lars_G | :) |
| 01:57.08 | Lars_G | I had to try |
| 01:57.13 | RobotGuy | I need something that has a camera interface. |
| 01:57.27 | Lars_G | with being limited legally to only $400 online this year I need to pilfer my toys somehow else |
| 01:57.34 | RobotGuy | Although it will be quite awhile before I can aquire something. |
| 01:57.52 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: oh? why? |
| 01:58.47 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: impossed measure to avoid resource leakage on my country. |
| 01:59.00 | g1powermac_PB | RobotGuy: I'm hoping usb host is brought out to one of the test points too |
| 01:59.10 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: oh, interesting |
| 01:59.39 | RobotGuy | This is it? http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-Zipit-Wireless-Messenger-2-2ZA-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ180240043198QQihZ008QQcategoryZ44996QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem |
| 02:00.04 | g1powermac_PB | yupper |
| 02:00.20 | g1powermac_PB | its at a great price atm |
| 02:00.23 | RobotGuy | I thought it was more expensive than that. |
| 02:00.37 | g1powermac_PB | mine cost me $116 which includes the shipping |
| 02:00.41 | RobotGuy | If I had the money I would try and get 2 or 3 of them! |
| 02:01.01 | g1powermac_PB | it depends on how much interest there is when it ends |
| 02:01.23 | RobotGuy | I don't care about that. I want units I can afford to destroy. |
| 02:01.47 | g1powermac_PB | heh |
| 02:02.04 | Lars_G | It wouldn't be so bad if some commerciants werent so f.... gah language I can't use here. |
| 02:02.38 | RobotGuy | There is 3 of them on ebay under $40.00 (not including shipping) now. |
| 02:02.39 | Lars_G | Charging sometimes up to %300 markup over imported goods |
| 02:03.05 | g1powermac_PB | RobotGuy: yea, but I doubt they'll stay that low |
| 02:03.16 | RobotGuy | Probably not. |
| 02:04.49 | Lars_G | Specially not when g1 makes them famous in hacker circles |
| 02:05.01 | g1powermac_PB | hehe |
| 02:05.06 | Lars_G | Once he makes more progress, and it's posted to the make blog, or hackaday, forget about them. |
| 02:05.24 | g1powermac_PB | oh, make blog, forgot about them |
| 02:05.29 | g1powermac_PB | or even hackaday |
| 02:05.38 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: thanks for the ideas :-) |
| 02:06.51 | g1powermac_PB | definitely will submit this to hackaday once the jtag port has been confirmed |
| 02:07.04 | RobotGuy | g1powermac_PB: Is that all legal to do? |
| 02:07.40 | g1powermac_PB | it should be |
| 02:07.52 | RobotGuy | You have to be SURE though. |
| 02:08.15 | g1powermac_PB | its not like I'm posting 'so-called' confidential info found on their restricted part of their wiki |
| 02:08.32 | g1powermac_PB | they never said anything about jtag and serial port on it :-) |
| 02:08.43 | RobotGuy | Couldn't it be seen as reverse engineering? |
| 02:09.14 | g1powermac_PB | technically every hack where you find jtag and serial ports would be considered reverse engineering |
| 02:09.28 | MonMotha | reverse engineering is generally regarded as something that's legit as long as it's not done through the use of protected materials |
| 02:10.15 | Lars_G | afaik reverse engineering in the usa is legal as long as you don't need to break encryption to do it |
| 02:10.17 | g1powermac_PB | yea, thats what makes the restricted wiki info weird |
| 02:10.27 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: meh, yes and no |
| 02:10.31 | Lars_G | the (another word I can't say here) DMCA ruined it for innovation. |
| 02:10.57 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: they can still DMCA you even if you haven't circumvented a protection system |
| 02:11.18 | MonMotha | well, hell, anybody can sue anybody for anything |
| 02:11.23 | g1powermac_PB | whether thats in and of itself is legal or not is another question |
| 02:11.26 | MonMotha | it's a matter of whether or not they have a leg to stand on in court... |
| 02:11.54 | g1powermac_PB | MonMotha: true, but they have that option to push people around without actually even filing a suit |
| 02:12.08 | RobotGuy | Or whether they can beat down the opposition. |
| 02:12.38 | MonMotha | yes, and you have the option to ignore htem |
| 02:12.48 | MonMotha | they can subsequently sue, of course |
| 02:12.53 | MonMotha | but that's no different than otherwise |
| 02:12.53 | g1powermac_PB | maybe |
| 02:12.58 | MonMotha | you can demand that people do anything |
| 02:13.03 | MonMotha | they don't have to do it unless you get an injunciton |
| 02:13.05 | g1powermac_PB | look at what happened with the coreavc thing |
| 02:13.14 | MonMotha | that was a takedown notice |
| 02:13.23 | Lars_G | Ah yes, court bullying, but that has always existed. |
| 02:13.28 | MonMotha | the host complied under the "safe harbor" provisions to keep themselves from being liable |
| 02:13.35 | g1powermac_PB | yea, thats what I'm referring to |
| 02:13.48 | Lars_G | it's the way corporations have always used to profit from stolen stale ideas instead of developing new stuff |
| 02:13.54 | g1powermac_PB | in essence, especially since my zipit site is on sf.net |
| 02:14.00 | Lars_G | they taken down core? |
| 02:14.01 | MonMotha | however, you can always come right back with the standard "I don't believe this is infringement and here's why" notice,and then the host is obligated to put the content back up under those same provisions (or drop you as a customre) |
| 02:14.03 | Lars_G | wtf... when |
| 02:14.12 | MonMotha | the key is to find a host that doesn't suck |
| 02:14.16 | g1powermac_PB | true |
| 02:14.23 | MonMotha | i.e. one that follows the procedures rather than blindly overreacting |
| 02:14.28 | g1powermac_PB | ya |
| 02:14.39 | Madsy | Oh.. the old DMCA discussion again |
| 02:14.52 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: Wanna see what my boss gave me to keep and play with? |
| 02:14.58 | g1powermac_PB | well, if it were to happen to my sf project, I got a host lined up in a small country in eastern europe that is hosting my blog :-) |
| 02:15.09 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: heh, sure |
| 02:15.36 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: Let me blog it from my phone (I love my current phone) |
| 02:15.38 | Madsy | We better hope Obama will get rid of that law ;-) |
| 02:15.41 | Lars_G | Uploading to blog..... |
| 02:16.02 | Lars_G | taps his fingers |
| 02:16.08 | Lars_G | I love my phone, but edge is slow sometimes |
| 02:16.13 | g1powermac_PB | which president signed that stupid bill into law? |
| 02:16.19 | g1powermac_PB | was it clinton or bush? |
| 02:16.28 | g1powermac_PB | doesn't remember |
| 02:16.28 | Madsy | Bush IIRC |
| 02:16.33 | g1powermac_PB | k |
| 02:16.37 | Lars_G | Hmmm Bush afaik |
| 02:16.46 | g1powermac_PB | thought it was, but wasn't sure |
| 02:16.53 | Madsy | Clinton has done some stupid things as well, but not that stupid. |
| 02:16.54 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: http://eternalzoo.blogspot.com/ |
| 02:17.07 | g1powermac_PB | wants gore for president :-) |
| 02:17.19 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: hahahahaah, nice |
| 02:17.54 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: I got a powerbook 520c here, the first laptop with color screen and a trackpad :-) |
| 02:18.21 | MonMotha | I do believe the DMCA was signed into law by Clinton... |
| 02:18.43 | Madsy | Oh. It *was* Clinton :-( |
| 02:18.43 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: when the heck did ya get a blog, btw? :-) |
| 02:18.55 | RobotGuy | That thing needs to be repealed. |
| 02:18.55 | g1powermac_PB | dang |
| 02:18.59 | Madsy | Woah.. this was unexpected. |
| 02:19.34 | RobotGuy | What? |
| 02:19.41 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: aaaages ago. |
| 02:19.45 | g1powermac_PB | hrmm, and I was kinda rooting for hillary for president if I actually had to choose someone on the ballot |
| 02:19.54 | Lars_G | MonMotha: you seem to be right |
| 02:20.02 | Lars_G | Bush's stupidity was the patriot act |
| 02:20.05 | MonMotha | yes |
| 02:20.16 | g1powermac_PB | I knew that one |
| 02:20.22 | g1powermac_PB | ugh, stupid patriot act |
| 02:20.25 | RobotGuy | They should both be repealed |
| 02:21.36 | RobotGuy | Anyway, bye for now - got to go do other stuff. |
| 02:21.36 | g1powermac_PB | cya RobotGuy |
| 02:21.46 | g1powermac_PB | really wants to see an independent run halfway decently one day |
| 02:22.47 | g1powermac_PB | though I wonder if the democrats are going to split this round |
| 02:23.11 | g1powermac_PB | it has happened in the past with two popular candidates of the same party |
| 02:24.00 | g1powermac_PB | which usually means the other party gets in, ugh, don't want to see mccain either |
| 02:27.28 | Lars_G | hmmm |
| 02:27.38 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: I need to find a copy of HyperCard compatible with system 7.1 |
| 02:28.35 | Lars_G | I think I'll put this powerbook to use on my electronics bench |
| 02:30.46 | Lars_G | Meh see you all gotta go home |
| 02:30.56 | Lars_G | Sigh this powerbook is going to be so much fun. |
| 02:39.50 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: I need a hand before I go... are you on your mac? |
| 02:40.12 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: If you have mac tracker there, can you run it quick and tell me the max OS installable for the Powerbook 1800? |
| 02:40.48 | Lars_G | Sigh I had to run. rhanks anyhow |
| 02:45.16 | g1powermac_PB | sorry, was afk |
| 02:45.27 | g1powermac_PB | and I don't have mac tracker on this machine |
| 02:45.36 | g1powermac_PB | time for sleep, gnight all |
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| 02:54.26 | prpplague | grumbles |
| 03:00.13 | sunrunner20 | gruble gruble :) |
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| 11:29.06 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 11:31.03 | g1powermac_PB | sigh: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080508-house-overwhelmingly-passes-controversial-pro-ip-act.html |
| 11:31.49 | g1powermac_PB | morning GPSFan |
| 11:32.08 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: g'day |
| 11:32.19 | GPSFan | yawns |
| 11:34.25 | g1powermac_PB | I'm thinking of posting my zipit site to hackaday once we get confirmation of the jtag port |
| 11:34.48 | g1powermac_PB | should be able to get more interest in the zipit |
| 11:35.59 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: and to the yahoo group, which is where interest in the z1 started. |
| 11:36.12 | g1powermac_PB | oh yea, forgot about the yahoo group |
| 11:37.04 | GPSFan | there hasn't been any activity there in months, chilled by the draconian dev agreement for the z2, no doubt. |
| 11:37.27 | g1powermac_PB | ya |
| 11:38.59 | g1powermac_PB | now with jtag, we don't need their agreement :-) |
| 11:39.31 | GPSFan | 2 important "next steps". 1) gpl version of the wifi driver. 2) replace blob with either a blob re-write, or apex. 3) get a machine ID for the z2 and re-do the kernel patches appropriately. |
| 11:39.55 | g1powermac_PB | yes |
| 11:40.25 | g1powermac_PB | I'll update the todo list about that later today |
| 11:40.27 | GPSFan | with jtag you can fix anything, with bob access, you can do almost as much. |
| 11:40.50 | GPSFan | without the hardware that most folks want to aviod. |
| 11:41.11 | g1powermac_PB | yea |
| 11:41.38 | GPSFan | it's like the old tuxscreen days all over again. |
| 11:41.47 | g1powermac_PB | heheh |
| 11:42.24 | g1powermac_PB | well, with jtag now we can run our own linux system directly and not worry ourselves with changing their system |
| 11:42.42 | g1powermac_PB | again completely removing ourselves from their restricted wiki |
| 11:42.53 | g1powermac_PB | only thing that would be left would be that expansion port pinout |
| 11:43.06 | g1powermac_PB | not sure how exactly to bypass that |
| 11:43.07 | SpeedEvil | Which the xray images should help some with. |
| 11:43.52 | g1powermac_PB | SpeedEvil: well, the issue is whether finding the pinout via other means would still make it legal to post it outside of their wiki |
| 11:44.03 | SpeedEvil | Of course it is. |
| 11:44.09 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: roxfan was supposed to strip the board of parts, that will lead to the pinnout of the rear connector. |
| 11:44.25 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: ahh |
| 11:44.34 | SpeedEvil | If you don't use any details from the wiki. I mean simply generate it from the xray images that prppla got |
| 11:45.29 | GPSFan | it's important that who ever does it has not signed their dev agreement, and does a "cleanroom" method of re-generating it. |
| 11:45.35 | SpeedEvil | yeah |
| 11:45.59 | SpeedEvil | how wide is the connector? |
| 11:46.09 | SpeedEvil | lines |
| 11:46.54 | GPSFan | if roxfan hasn't stripped the parts yet it will be useful to connect up the serial port and see what happend with tomw's kernel flash. and try to re-flash with the original kernel. |
| 11:47.02 | GPSFan | SpeedEvil: 36 |
| 11:47.35 | g1powermac_PB | yea, there are known ports that are brought out to the connector |
| 11:47.47 | g1powermac_PB | that was mentioned outside of the agreement |
| 11:47.56 | GPSFan | we know the signals ( in general terms) Audio, USB client, Camera, grounds. |
| 11:48.08 | SpeedEvil | Some of those are easy |
| 11:48.19 | SpeedEvil | camera must be about 12 pins IIRC |
| 11:48.20 | g1powermac_PB | including i2c, audio, camera, usb client, and a few power lines and such |
| 11:48.27 | GPSFan | more like 20 |
| 11:48.35 | GPSFan | yeah i2c |
| 11:49.04 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: but you need to be careful because you signed the dev agreement. |
| 11:49.10 | g1powermac_PB | I know |
| 11:49.27 | GPSFan | bad geek, no donought. |
| 11:49.35 | g1powermac_PB | hasn't mentioned any actual pin numberings |
| 11:49.39 | GPSFan | bbl |
| 11:50.14 | g1powermac_PB | now if i get that info from a clean source, should I, or shouldn't I post that to the zipit site? |
| 11:50.45 | g1powermac_PB | ie like someone here who hasn't accepted the agreement finds the pinout |
| 11:53.47 | SpeedEvil | It doesn't matter. |
| 11:54.05 | SpeedEvil | The issue is that you are contaminated by looking at the agreed data. |
| 11:54.13 | g1powermac_PB | hmm |
| 11:54.18 | SpeedEvil | So any data you generate is then poisoned. |
| 11:54.22 | g1powermac_PB | so what exactly should I do? |
| 11:54.29 | SpeedEvil | Or that's the theory at least. |
| 11:57.33 | SpeedEvil | Exactly how it would work in practice, ... |
| 11:57.46 | SpeedEvil | In practice. |
| 11:57.54 | SpeedEvil | Are zipit going to bother suing you? |
| 11:58.13 | SpeedEvil | When you have a credible alternate method through which you could get the data. |
| 11:58.49 | SpeedEvil | For example, board scans from clean boards, with notes on each track and where it goes. |
| 12:00.01 | SpeedEvil | 'pin 20 goes through 4 vias, is connected to the non-ground side of R44, and then to ball J5 of IC4 ball J5 is TXD - see http://' |
| 12:00.18 | g1powermac_PB | hmm |
| 12:00.59 | g1powermac_PB | couldn't it be also documented via jtag? |
| 12:01.04 | SpeedEvil | I.E. more No. |
| 12:01.06 | SpeedEvil | No |
| 12:01.12 | SpeedEvil | JTAG is not magic |
| 12:01.32 | SpeedEvil | it's very handy - but you probably won't be able to generate all signals from JTAG capable pins. |
| 12:01.38 | SpeedEvil | all signals easily. |
| 12:01.52 | g1powermac_PB | hmm |
| 12:21.31 | g1powermac_PB | what if i linked to a site where someone else found the pinout? |
| 12:21.47 | SpeedEvil | Then the information does not come from you. |
| 12:22.17 | SpeedEvil | Does the agreement say: |
| 12:22.17 | g1powermac_PB | ok, then thats an option |
| 12:22.29 | SpeedEvil | 'I agree not to reveal any facts I learn from this wiki' |
| 12:22.47 | SpeedEvil | Or 'I agree not to reveal any facts about the zipit contained in this wiki' |
| 12:22.50 | g1powermac_PB | not exactly, iirc |
| 12:23.09 | g1powermac_PB | its more like: I agree not to post this information elsewhere |
| 12:23.20 | SpeedEvil | The key is did you agree to keep facts secret, even though tehy are available elsewhere. |
| 12:23.41 | g1powermac_PB | the agreement is on their site if you want to go through it |
| 12:24.50 | SpeedEvil | Not really. |
| 12:25.02 | SpeedEvil | I have no zipit, and no cacne for onw. |
| 12:25.28 | g1powermac_PB | this is what it says directly on the wiki in the restricted section: "Permission is granted to use this information for open source projects hosted on this site. This information may not be duplicated or posted on other sites, and may be referenced via links to http://linux.zipitwireless.com." |
| 12:25.59 | g1powermac_PB | obviously how in the world do you allow open source projects yet somehow try to keep this stuff restricted |
| 12:28.11 | SpeedEvil | That's not actually a problem - with appropriate licenses. |
| 12:30.22 | g1powermac_PB | ok, here's the official stuff from the agreement: "b. Confidentiality. Developer agrees that all information disclosed by Zipit through the Developer?s Exchange that relates to Zipit?s products, designs, business plans, business opportunities, finances, research, development, know?how, personnel, or third party confidential information, will be considered and referred to collectively as ?Confidential Infor |
| 12:30.22 | g1powermac_PB | mation.? Confidential Information, however, does not include: (i) information that Zipit makes generally available to the public; (ii) information that Developer can demonstrate to have had rightfully in its possession prior to disclosure to Developer by Zipti; (iii) information that is independently developed by Developer without the use of any Confidential Information; (iv) information that Developer rightf |
| 12:30.23 | g1powermac_PB | ully obtains from a third party who has been given the right to transfer or disclose it by Zipit; or (v) any third party software or documentation provided by Zipit and accompanied by licensing terms that do not impose confidentiality obligation on the use or disclosure of such software and documentation, for example, software governed by the GPL. Developer agrees not to disclose, publish, or disseminate Confidential Information |
| 12:30.28 | g1powermac_PB | to any third party and to take reasonable precautions to prevent any unauthorized use, disclosure, publication or dissemination of Confidential Information. Developer agrees not to use Confidential Information other than as provided in this Agreement." |
| 12:30.32 | g1powermac_PB | oh crap |
| 12:30.34 | g1powermac_PB | should've pastebinned it |
| 12:30.49 | SpeedEvil | The key phrase is right at the start. |
| 12:31.10 | SpeedEvil | 'information discloses by zipit through the developers exchange' |
| 12:31.44 | SpeedEvil | This means that you can distribute information gotten from other sources. |
| 12:31.58 | g1powermac_PB | ok |
| 12:32.15 | g1powermac_PB | yea, it kinda stated that in the enumerated list in that paragraph |
| 12:32.56 | g1powermac_PB | especially (iii) |
| 12:33.11 | g1powermac_PB | and (iv) |
| 12:33.41 | g1powermac_PB | err, not really (iv) |
| 12:33.53 | SpeedEvil | A simple solution would be to ask them. |
| 12:34.08 | SpeedEvil | Is there a forum? |
| 12:34.39 | g1powermac_PB | it requires you to be a member to post a question |
| 12:34.56 | SpeedEvil | I mean - you ask them. |
| 12:35.18 | *** join/#edev TT_Tequila_ (n=guillaum@sub.pkg.fr) |
| 12:35.19 | g1powermac_PB | I think really the spirit of the agreement is to stop people from reselling the zipit with modifications |
| 12:35.35 | SpeedEvil | Well - tough. |
| 12:35.55 | g1powermac_PB | yea, I'm going to prod the main zipit guy here on irc when he comes back online |
| 12:35.55 | SpeedEvil | If the agreement does not in fact implement that. |
| 12:36.09 | g1powermac_PB | oh, its specifically written in the agreement |
| 12:36.16 | g1powermac_PB | they don't want you to resell with mods |
| 12:36.47 | SpeedEvil | I can see why - supporting them would be horrid. |
| 12:36.51 | g1powermac_PB | and alot of it is based around that, like the trademark protection and stuff |
| 12:37.04 | SpeedEvil | you have to protect your trademark. |
| 12:37.09 | SpeedEvil | If you do not, then you lose it. |
| 12:37.18 | g1powermac_PB | ya |
| 12:38.08 | g1powermac_PB | but alot of it is based on modifying and resellling and/or stating your mod is compatible with the zipit, and/or other goodies |
| 12:39.44 | GPSFan | returns |
| 12:40.28 | g1powermac_PB | its a pretty short agreement when you really take a look at it |
| 12:40.30 | SpeedEvil | notes GPSFans stack underflowing. |
| 12:40.36 | g1powermac_PB | its main guts are only 4 pages long |
| 12:40.37 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: there are 2 missing pics on http://zipit2system.sourceforge.net/jtag.html second & third from the top |
| 12:40.58 | GPSFan | pops his stack |
| 12:41.10 | g1powermac_PB | hit refresh, sf tends to do that |
| 12:41.52 | GPSFan | gotcha |
| 12:41.54 | g1powermac_PB | sf is a bit flaky at times |
| 12:42.08 | GPSFan | indeed |
| 12:43.57 | g1powermac_PB | "c. Documentation License. The information provided by Zipit through the Developer?s Exchange is the proprietary material of Zipit (the ?Documentation?) and is protected by copyright. Zipit grants Developer a limited, non?transferable, non?exclusive license to use the Documentation solely for non? commercial, internal purposes." |
| 12:44.03 | g1powermac_PB | that pretty much sums it all up |
| 12:44.22 | g1powermac_PB | they just don't want you to resell or sell your mods to make money |
| 12:45.01 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: but if you don't sign the agreement you are not bound by it. |
| 12:45.25 | GPSFan | as long as you don't violate normal copyright provisions. |
| 12:45.36 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: true, but I already agreed to it |
| 12:45.46 | GPSFan | bad geek, no donought. |
| 12:46.01 | g1powermac_PB | heh |
| 12:46.30 | g1powermac_PB | of course then we got roxfan2 who was able to gain access to the restricted part of the wiki without agreeing to the terms |
| 12:46.49 | g1powermac_PB | whatever that means exactly |
| 12:47.26 | GPSFan | he could be guilty of "hacking" |
| 12:47.56 | GPSFan | or some sort of DMCA violation, good thing he's not in the US |
| 12:48.19 | g1powermac_PB | maybe, but if they didn't write their code right to prevent access to the site without agreeing, then who's to blame. . . |
| 12:48.56 | g1powermac_PB | obviously if you select that you don't agree to the agreement yet after you hit the button it throws you to the restricted part of the site, what does that mean? |
| 12:49.54 | GPSFan | then it becomes an ethical question, if you discover that you are "tresspassing" do you leave, or snoop around? |
| 12:55.15 | g1powermac_PB | hmm |
| 13:06.43 | *** join/#edev chouimat|work (n=dieu@209.217.106.98) |
| 13:07.28 | chouimat|work | morning |
| 13:12.14 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 13:26.21 | *** part/#edev TT_Tequila (n=guillaum@sub.pkg.fr) |
| 13:26.25 | *** join/#edev sunrunner20 (n=jamesdoe@pool-71-164-162-182.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 13:29.05 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=dave@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 13:30.48 | Lars_G | Good day all. |
| 13:31.11 | *** join/#edev LyosNorezel (n=Ralph@unaffiliated/lyosnorezel) |
| 13:31.47 | g1powermac_PB | heya Lars_G and prpplague |
| 13:32.01 | prpplague | greetings |
| 13:33.22 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB: ok, so i wish you'd sent the rest of the zipit so i could mod it for the jtag and uart |
| 13:33.44 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 13:34.03 | g1powermac_PB | heh, its alright, I'll mod it here, just leave some wires on it :-) |
| 13:34.26 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB: yea, i'm probably going to order a couple v2's |
| 13:35.05 | g1powermac_PB | awesome |
| 13:35.28 | prpplague | probably won;t do much with them, but i'd like to see what i can test with it |
| 13:35.54 | GPSFan | prpplague: did you get to test the jtag? |
| 13:36.20 | prpplague | GPSFan: yea, i was able to get a good scan chain response |
| 13:36.26 | prpplague | GPSFan: so it looks to be working |
| 13:36.33 | g1powermac_PB | beautiful |
| 13:36.37 | GPSFan | prpplague: ah, that's great |
| 13:36.57 | chouimat|work | hmmmm 16GB of memory for 688 |
| 13:40.42 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: btw, what serial port settings did you use to talk with blob? |
| 13:44.09 | GPSFan | 115200 N81 no flow |
| 13:44.20 | g1powermac_PB | thanks |
| 13:44.34 | GPSFan | I used the adapter I built for the z1 |
| 13:45.15 | g1powermac_PB | what kind of adapter did you make? |
| 13:45.36 | g1powermac_PB | I need to make one myself that'll work at 3.3v |
| 13:46.45 | GPSFan | you can see it here: http://www.paonia.com/~kenm/Pix/images/Zipit/Lcd/lcd2.jpg it's a maxim MAX233A |
| 13:47.01 | g1powermac_PB | ahh |
| 13:47.45 | GPSFan | powered from 2 AA cells |
| 13:47.52 | prpplague | http://elinux.org/Zipit_Serial_Mod |
| 13:47.56 | g1powermac_PB | heh, was just going to ask that |
| 13:49.16 | g1powermac_PB | very nice |
| 13:51.03 | GPSFan | it actually came from my webpal serial port work. years before the z1 stuff. http://www.paonia.com/~kenm/Pix/images/WebPal/Image03a.jpg |
| 13:51.59 | g1powermac_PB | does the flyswatter have 3.3v serial port on it? |
| 13:52.13 | g1powermac_PB | just wonder if you could use it instead of making a whole knew adapter |
| 13:52.17 | g1powermac_PB | *wondering |
| 13:53.07 | g1powermac_PB | eh, s/knew/new |
| 13:54.42 | prpplague | yea you could bypass the ttl shifter |
| 13:55.14 | Lars_G | Tell me something you lot of madmen |
| 13:55.31 | g1powermac_PB | this should work too: http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2008 |
| 13:55.35 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB: so the zipit folks don't want third party products for the v2? |
| 13:55.36 | Lars_G | Does any of you know how different the charging circuitry for li-ions is from ni-cd? |
| 13:55.47 | g1powermac_PB | for an actual 3.3v level shifter |
| 13:55.57 | Lars_G | you think I could bang a ni-cd charger IC to be able to charge a li-ion healthily? |
| 13:56.02 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: well, they don't want 3rd party products without approval |
| 13:56.07 | GPSFan | prpplague: they don't want 3rd party products that they don't have control of. |
| 13:56.16 | g1powermac_PB | exactly |
| 13:56.17 | prpplague | Lars_G: a li-ion charger ic is cheap, might as well use the right item |
| 13:56.56 | Lars_G | prpplague: Yes but I'm thinking on adapting a Li-Ion to the ni-cd based PowerBook 180 I was given. |
| 13:57.00 | GPSFan | Lars_G: it is very different, but as prpplague said there are cheap liion charger chips/modules available. |
| 13:57.18 | Lars_G | prpplague: I am sure i can make the powerbook run off the slightly lower li-ion voltage... but charging is another thing altogether. |
| 13:57.27 | Lars_G | prpplague: And I don't want to alter the logic board if I don't have to |
| 13:58.05 | g1powermac_PB | goes ahead and samples that chip |
| 13:58.16 | Lars_G | Plus I need to check if the charger IC in the powerbook is self controlled or machine controlled. if it's machine controlled I'd need to find one that is not only form and pinout compatible, but control message compatible too... |
| 13:58.20 | g1powermac_PB | I wonder if I could directly power it off the zipits board |
| 13:58.23 | Lars_G | g1powermac_PB: you've not changed much |
| 13:58.28 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB / GPSFan hmm, well that kind of turns me off on the v2 |
| 13:58.28 | g1powermac_PB | Lars_G: heheh |
| 13:58.43 | GPSFan | Lars_G: here is a similar project. http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~gim/RoombaLi-ion/ |
| 13:58.49 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: the idea is they don't want commercial products without approval |
| 13:58.52 | Lars_G | GPSFan: thanks I'll check it out |
| 13:58.59 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: you can do oss stuff all you want |
| 13:59.24 | GPSFan | prpplague: yeah, well tehy really only have control if you sign the dev agreement. |
| 13:59.42 | g1powermac_PB | and really only have control if you use the info found in the restricted part of the site |
| 14:00.38 | Lars_G | what's the zipit originally bassed on? |
| 14:00.43 | Lars_G | WM? Vx? |
| 14:00.51 | g1powermac_PB | which we're very close to completely bypassing |
| 14:00.54 | GPSFan | z1 was linux |
| 14:01.00 | g1powermac_PB | both are linux |
| 14:01.04 | Lars_G | Ah good. |
| 14:01.14 | g1powermac_PB | z1 is the old version, z2 is the one we're working on now |
| 14:01.20 | Lars_G | that means we should have most of the drivers for the hardware unless they're pulling an nvidia move |
| 14:01.36 | g1powermac_PB | well, yea, there is one driver like that |
| 14:01.41 | prpplague | Lars_G: all but the wifi driver |
| 14:01.45 | Lars_G | If you get qtopia to run on those I'll really think I'll start considering on saving for one. |
| 14:01.45 | GPSFan | marvell wifi driver is an issue |
| 14:01.50 | g1powermac_PB | its the wifi driver, however, consider work is being done on replacing it |
| 14:01.54 | Lars_G | meh marvell |
| 14:02.15 | Lars_G | all wifi vendors are motherfuckers. |
| 14:02.18 | Lars_G | oh gods |
| 14:02.22 | Lars_G | prpplague: sorry sir. i forgot |
| 14:02.28 | Lars_G | I'm too used to saying my mind. |
| 14:02.31 | Lars_G | repents |
| 14:02.38 | chouimat|work | remove the blood from his eyes |
| 14:02.50 | Lars_G | sighs |
| 14:02.54 | GPSFan | marvell probably gave them a "deal" if they used both the pxa270 and 8686 |
| 14:03.02 | Lars_G | Anyhow trying to do like I never said anything wrong... |
| 14:03.17 | g1powermac_PB | prolly |
| 14:03.24 | Lars_G | I wonder how the openmoko guys did/will manage to get a chip they can work with openly for the neo 1973 |
| 14:03.42 | prpplague | GPSFan: they are two seperate divisions, they probably never even knew that two marvell products were being used in the same device |
| 14:03.44 | RobotGuy | Good Morning |
| 14:03.59 | prpplague | Lars_G: iirc they are planning to use an ar6k module |
| 14:04.01 | *** join/#edev slapin_nb (n=slapin@saris-243.ip.PeterStar.net) |
| 14:04.19 | Lars_G | prpplague: Don't know it. I'll research it some more. |
| 14:04.34 | prpplague | Lars_G: hehe yea, i do |
| 14:04.35 | GPSFan | prpplague: really... |
| 14:04.40 | Lars_G | It'd be cool if somebody managed to get a reliable wi-fi working on a fpga and posted it to opencores. |
| 14:04.54 | prpplague | Lars_G: not going to happen in the US |
| 14:04.59 | Lars_G | Though I wonder if any of the fpgas in the market can handle the frequencies needed for the wave synthesis. |
| 14:05.18 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague: I think the big thing with the zipit people is to not use their trademarks and not resell a zipit that's modified |
| 14:05.42 | Lars_G | prpplague: neither from china. that means if it doesn't comes from nokia or similar we're fried |
| 14:05.59 | prpplague | ?? |
| 14:06.18 | prpplague | there is a wide range of wifi modules these days and linux support is moving ahead pretty quick |
| 14:06.35 | Lars_G | Yes but it always ends up being an uphill battle |
| 14:07.29 | prpplague | that is always going to be true |
| 14:08.31 | GPSFan | digs out his old tuxscreen blob docs. |
| 14:09.12 | prpplague | g1powermac_PB / GPSFan my main concern is that zipit guys will use our mods without providing credit |
| 14:09.19 | prpplague | (or compensation) |
| 14:09.35 | g1powermac_PB | realistically they can't without our permission |
| 14:09.49 | g1powermac_PB | that is stipulated in their agreement |
| 14:10.07 | g1powermac_PB | it indemnifies our rights as devs |
| 14:10.35 | prpplague | thats only if you sign their document |
| 14:10.53 | g1powermac_PB | either way, they still can't use our mods without permission |
| 14:11.07 | prpplague | thats not entirely correct |
| 14:11.17 | prpplague | we are posting the information for everyone to see |
| 14:11.22 | g1powermac_PB | they did release all the gpl stuff they used and modified |
| 14:11.31 | GPSFan | they never even acknowledged the existance of the community for the z1 efforts |
| 14:11.40 | prpplague | it can be argued that the information is in the public domain |
| 14:12.04 | g1powermac_PB | hmm, true, we could stipulate it under a license then |
| 14:12.06 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: only after timR sent them a nastygram in the early z1 days. |
| 14:12.27 | Lars_G | prpplague: Not really. under many countrie's laws any kind of published material is automatically copyrighted |
| 14:12.48 | Lars_G | Altough... that applies to the copying of the material. not to the use of the information in it. hmmm |
| 14:12.57 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: hmm |
| 14:14.32 | prpplague | would be nice if someone at zipit would make their position known |
| 14:14.41 | g1powermac_PB | yea |
| 14:15.11 | g1powermac_PB | not sure if we can reliably use their attitude from the z1 days to judge whats going on now |
| 14:15.21 | g1powermac_PB | since its now its own company |
| 14:15.58 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: correct. they hired drmikecrowe expressly for the purpose of interfacing with the wider linux community. |
| 14:16.19 | g1powermac_PB | oh, didn't know that |
| 14:17.10 | GPSFan | g1powermac_PB: you are fairly new to the z2 scene. things have been going on since the z2 was announced. read some of the old yahoo posts. |
| 14:17.33 | g1powermac_PB | yea, will do now that I'm a member of the yahoo group |
| 14:18.35 | g1powermac_PB | ok, got some stuff to do, bbl |
| 14:21.14 | prpplague | i wonder zipit folks spoke to T0mW |
| 14:24.29 | prpplague | is having second thoughts about ordering a z2 |
| 14:24.48 | GPSFan | prpplague: I think so, they expressed an interest in tom's add-in board. they talked to me toovia e-mail. basically wanting comments on the dev agreement. |
| 14:26.16 | prpplague | GPSFan: ahh, surprised would have thought T0mW would have mentioned it to me |
| 14:26.40 | prpplague | GPSFan: i assume you told them the dev agreement was likely to kill any dev |
| 14:26.51 | RobotGuy | listens |
| 14:27.25 | GPSFan | prpplague: I told them that I could not sign it for several reasons, and that I believed no serious developer would either. |
| 14:27.56 | prpplague | GPSFan: did they respond with anything? |
| 14:28.04 | GPSFan | they did make some changes to a few of the paragraphs, but not enough. |
| 14:28.51 | prpplague | hmm |
| 14:28.59 | prpplague | thats interesting |
| 14:29.06 | prpplague | GPSFan: spoken to them since then? |
| 14:29.18 | ce_geek | prpplague: I have decided that the document for TCT and the document for Rick will be quite a bit different. Trying to make one that serves both purposes is not working too well. Focusing on Rick's right now, next week I can focus on the one for TCT. |
| 14:29.18 | GPSFan | I figured the community would speak for itself in its participation. |
| 14:29.30 | RobotGuy | prpplague: If you had to choose, would you choose a Zipit2 or an iPAQ rx3715? |
| 14:29.52 | chouimat|work | RobotGuy: n800 :) |
| 14:29.54 | GPSFan | which has come true, if the traffic on #zipit is any indication. |
| 14:29.55 | chouimat|work | or n810 |
| 14:30.02 | RobotGuy | prpplague: What kind of document is this? |
| 14:30.07 | prpplague | RobotGuy: i'd need more info |
| 14:30.16 | RobotGuy | chouimat|work: There is an n810 now. |
| 14:30.20 | chouimat|work | yup |
| 14:30.24 | chouimat|work | xrx7345.ppd |
| 14:30.25 | prpplague | ce_geek: what kind of differences are you running into? |
| 14:30.26 | chouimat|work | oops |
| 14:30.37 | prpplague | ce_geek: i would have expected it to be in the same direction |
| 14:31.02 | prpplague | ce_geek: well make sure rick is happy first |
| 14:31.22 | prpplague | ce_geek: tct is just a scavenger for info right now, hehe |
| 14:32.00 | ce_geek | prpplague: Mostly just the fluffy stuff I guess. I just think that whatever I give to rick today is not what I'd want to call final for you guys. I'll certainly give it to you, and you can do as you like with it, but I want to spend more time on it next week. |
| 14:33.09 | prpplague | "ahh look there, its the red breasted tct vulcher, primarily feeds off of dead documents and rotting google cache files" |
| 14:33.26 | prpplague | ce_geek: np, we'll take what we can get |
| 14:33.27 | ce_geek | prpplague: This week time got away from me real bad. I sold my vehicle 1.5 hours away from here and bought another in the same area, and I've had to make a round trip down there 3 times this week, with shenannigans in between. It's family-friend stuff, so I was doing lots of favors. Sunk way too much time into that, and now I'm just scrambling to throw something together for Rick. I'll be all set with the class and stuff, just go |
| 14:33.28 | ce_geek | ing to be tight. |
| 14:34.03 | prpplague | ce_geek: np, get what you gotta get done |
| 14:34.10 | prpplague | ce_geek: tct isn't on a schedule |
| 14:34.12 | ce_geek | prpplague: And I can't even drive my new truck until next week because I have to figure out how to register it in NH.... but I don't have an address there yet. That's proving to be a cute trick. |
| 14:34.44 | ce_geek | prpplague: The good news is that there's all sorts of incentive even after Rick's class to keep up with this, that helps both of us I think :) |
| 14:34.57 | *** join/#edev T0mW (n=Tom@24.115.218.135.res-cmts.sth.ptd.net) |
| 14:35.02 | prpplague | ce_geek: tct wants its products to be fun |
| 14:35.05 | prpplague | T0mW: hey bud |
| 14:35.06 | ce_geek | prpplague: Usually once a class stops, so does the interest in the project. Fortunately I have a few weeks of goof-off time here in the lab before I start my job. |
| 14:35.23 | prpplague | ce_geek: ahh cool |
| 14:35.41 | RobotGuy | I always enjoyed quiet time in labs |
| 14:35.46 | prpplague | T0mW: give us the poop on aeronix/zipitwireless contacting you |
| 14:36.00 | prpplague | T0mW: GPSFan said he thought they had contacted you about your mods |
| 14:36.50 | GPSFan | ah, T0mW is her he should bea ble to provide some ground truth. |
| 14:37.14 | prpplague | soon has to go to a meeting |
| 14:37.31 | T0mW | prpplague: bbiab |
| 14:37.31 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Did you get a chance to check with shipping? |
| 14:38.43 | RobotGuy | I seem to have generated quite a bit of interest on the PARTS list. |
| 14:40.22 | ce_geek | prpplague: http://www.yessah.net/repos/hammer_board/hammer_doc.pdf |
| 14:41.49 | ce_geek | prpplague: Just committed the changes I have so far. It's growing. Needs some pictures and such. Finishing up 7.4 (how to add packages and deal with some buildroot stuff) and then need to finish up 7.5 (the 3com USB dongle), then move to the other stuff. Dropbear, boa, and the temperature sensors. I think that's where I'll stop for today. |
| 14:42.17 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: Are you including all the howtos? |
| 14:42.35 | ce_geek | RobotGuy: For many reasons, I often refer to the stuff in the Wiki. |
| 14:43.05 | ce_geek | RobotGuy: The combination of my document and the wiki should be enough for a somewhat green horn to create my temperature web server thing. |
| 14:43.40 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: The Wiki can change easily though. |
| 14:44.05 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: Hopefully to be improved with each change. |
| 14:44.46 | ce_geek | RobotGuy: I agree. The wiki is a good place for stuff. I'm just doing things this way right now because of my writing style and the way I like to reference things, and because I'm familiar with the typesetting environment. When I'm a little less stressed out about grades and school (after today) I'll be more likely to try wiki stuff. |
| 14:45.22 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: Ah, OK. Keep your stress level down or you could end up having what I have to deal with. |
| 14:47.46 | ce_geek | Oh snap I forgot about devmem stuff. *adds it to the do-now list* |
| 14:48.45 | Lars_G | Stress will kill you |
| 14:51.37 | T0mW | prpplague: ok, I am back. Slight "emergency" from a friend regarding sending email. |
| 14:51.39 | T0mW | heh |
| 14:51.57 | T0mW | prpplague: What was that about aeronix? |
| 14:52.02 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: I am getting http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/1385 |
| 14:52.31 | ce_geek | RobotGuy: Whazzit? (Sorry.... don't have time to dig) |
| 14:53.06 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: 8-Digit, Triplexed LCD Decoder Driver |
| 14:54.00 | ce_geek | RobotGuy: Cool. |
| 14:57.02 | *** join/#edev bbradley (n=bbradley@92-235-133-146.cable.ubr17.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 15:05.16 | RobotGuy | Durn, I can't change my e-mail address for Maxim. |
| 15:05.20 | g1powermac_PB | T0mW: btw, jtag and the serial port has been found on the zipit |
| 15:05.28 | g1powermac_PB | courtesy of prpplague |
| 15:05.50 | g1powermac_PB | http://zipit2system.sourceforge.net/jtag.html |
| 15:07.16 | g1powermac_PB | T0mW: we're all concerned about their agreement on their wiki |
| 15:07.48 | g1powermac_PB | and whether it means anything if you don't agree to it, especially in concern to making expansion boards and mods |
| 15:07.49 | GPSFan | T0mW: I had thought that zipit had contacted you about you add-in board. |
| 15:08.55 | g1powermac_PB | imho, I think if you find all the info outside of the agreement and if you don't use their trademarks in regards to your mod, I don't think they can do anything |
| 15:10.05 | g1powermac_PB | really, the only thing that is still in their agreement that is of any worth is the pinout of the expansion port |
| 15:11.09 | g1powermac_PB | now with jtag, the software part that was under the restricted part is now not needed |
| 15:11.39 | T0mW | GPSFan: no. What they did was that Mike contacted me and wanted to make sure that I got onboard for the Z2 linux stuff. |
| 15:11.50 | T0mW | g1powermac_PB: great! |
| 15:12.01 | T0mW | g1powermac_PB: have you actually used the jtag? |
| 15:12.11 | g1powermac_PB | prpplague has |
| 15:12.19 | T0mW | heh |
| 15:12.22 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan has tested the serial port |
| 15:12.42 | T0mW | that is cool |
| 15:13.12 | T0mW | that would make the boot faster as you can bypass the current "backflip" process |
| 15:13.14 | GPSFan | T0mW: ah I thought it was about your mod board. |
| 15:13.27 | g1powermac_PB | yupper |
| 15:13.28 | T0mW | GPSFan: no, not a peep out of them about that |
| 15:13.51 | T0mW | I'm just starting work on the HammerLCD today. |
| 15:14.22 | GPSFan | I have serial access to blob, I've been trying to reblob, and so far have not got anything to happen. I can download code with xdownload. |
| 15:14.37 | T0mW | GPSFan: a rainy spring day in Pennsylvania. Everything outside has this pale green cast to it. |
| 15:14.41 | g1powermac_PB | T0mW: btw, the zipit don't know about the jtag/serial port yet :-) |
| 15:14.47 | T0mW | heh |
| 15:14.49 | g1powermac_PB | zipit *people |
| 15:15.08 | T0mW | g1powermac_PB: I figured that it had to be there, I just couln |
| 15:15.30 | T0mW | n't see them shipping the unit without someway to avoid a brick situation. |
| 15:15.44 | GPSFan | T0mW: we had a late spring storm yesterday. >.5" rain & hail... lost 30-60% buds on the orchard. ;>( |
| 15:15.51 | T0mW | bad software, failure to write the flash, etc. |
| 15:16.06 | T0mW | GPSFan: ooo, not good |
| 15:16.55 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@163.181.251.103) |
| 15:16.55 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 15:17.29 | *** join/#edev sjhill (n=sjhill@real.realitydiluted.com) |
| 15:17.29 | *** mode/#edev [+o sjhill] by ChanServ |
| 15:22.12 | RobotGuy | Oh my, check this out: http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/215348-215348-64929-314903-3329748-3544502.html |
| 15:22.28 | g1powermac_PB | GPSFan: ouch |
| 15:22.33 | g1powermac_PB | T0mW: yea |
| 15:28.57 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-783.cheetah.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 15:34.28 | RobotGuy | This is sooooo cool: http://www.sirf.com/products/multifunction.html |
| 15:38.16 | SpeedEvil | Is there actual datasheets? |
| 15:38.20 | SpeedEvil | Or just wibble. |
| 15:40.48 | SpeedEvil | I mean - are tehre datasheets that you can actually use to code for the device. |
| 15:41.02 | prpplague | returns from meeting |
| 15:41.42 | prpplague | T0mW: http://www.elinux.org/ZipItV2_UART http://www.elinux.org/ZipItV2_JTAG |
| 15:44.08 | prpplague | T0mW: so the zipit people wanted you onboard for the z2, so did you make your concerns about dev agreement known to them? |
| 15:44.23 | prpplague | ce_geek: grabing a copy of the doc now |
| 15:46.16 | g1powermac_PB | bbiab, heading to work |
| 15:47.05 | prpplague | ce_geek: hmm, seems to be down |
| 15:47.11 | ce_geek | :( |
| 15:47.38 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: It's working for me |
| 15:49.12 | ce_geek | me2 :-/ |
| 15:52.32 | ce_geek | prpplague, RobotGuy: It is hung up right now actually |
| 15:52.36 | ce_geek | Dreamhost is not awesome. |
| 15:52.50 | prpplague | hehe |
| 15:52.58 | RobotGuy | ce_geek: ?? |
| 15:53.05 | T0mW | prpplague: I never agreed to it, I sent them (Mike) an email outlining my objections to the agreement terms. I felt that they were to restrictive, that they wanted me to agree that if they didn't like what I was doing that they could quash the work and have me desist. |
| 15:53.35 | prpplague | T0mW: did they respond back? |
| 15:55.09 | T0mW | prpplague: they (he) said that they would work up another version of that agreement in which they would address some of those concerns, however, they have yet to do it. |
| 15:56.17 | prpplague | have any of you heard the zipit people comment on their sales? i.e. slow/fast ? |
| 15:56.26 | *** join/#edev g1powermac (n=g1powerm@unaffiliated/g1powermac) |
| 15:58.43 | T0mW | dratted buildroot is not relocatable. Once you build in one subdir, then rename or move that dir, it still thinks it is at the old location. |
| 16:00.10 | T0mW | ok, 'make distclean' does not enter the package/config subdir during the 'distclean' process |
| 16:00.20 | GPSFan | prpplague: well blob peek & poke commands work to memory, and xdownload correctly downloads code to ram. Haven't been able to get anything to run yet, like download a new kernel or reblob. |
| 16:00.24 | prpplague | T0mW: all of the toolchain builds up until recently are that way |
| 16:00.40 | prpplague | GPSFan: ahh |
| 16:00.44 | prpplague | GPSFan: interesting |
| 16:07.13 | GPSFan | prpplague: and I can restart blob by "go 0xa0300400" which is where (in ram) the second stage blob (blob-rest) is loaded. |
| 16:07.35 | prpplague | lovely |
| 16:08.24 | GPSFan | so excuting stuff from the blob command line works and downloading works. |
| 16:11.18 | prpplague | good deal |
| 16:11.53 | prpplague | i think i've changed my mind about getting a z2 |
| 16:12.05 | prpplague | i've got other project i need to work on |
| 16:12.14 | g1powermac | aww |
| 16:12.20 | prpplague | heads to lunch |
| 16:12.23 | prpplague | bbiab |
| 16:12.50 | g1powermac | returns from eating lunch |
| 16:13.15 | g1powermac | GPSFan, so no custom kernel yet? |
| 16:13.37 | GPSFan | g1powermac: not yet |
| 16:13.47 | *** join/#edev flavioribeiro (n=flavio@189.43.63.147) |
| 16:14.05 | Lars_G | omg that craiglist posting made me cry with laughter |
| 16:14.13 | SpeedEvil | ? |
| 16:14.21 | g1powermac | GPSFan, k |
| 16:14.31 | g1powermac | nibbles on some yellow watermelon. . . |
| 16:15.12 | GPSFan | I've tried downloading the mtd1 image as the kernel and "boot" hangs. |
| 16:15.49 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 16:16.08 | g1powermac | I wonder if something is tied between blob and the current kernel |
| 16:17.51 | T0mW | prpplague: just started working with 2.6.26-rc1 |
| 16:19.33 | T0mW | g1powermac: I think that the kernel in the Zipit2 is stored as an uncompressed image. |
| 16:22.01 | GPSFan | T0mW: correct |
| 16:22.33 | T0mW | GPSFan: that is how I bricked the other unit, I used the MTD stuff to store a compressed zImage |
| 16:22.45 | GPSFan | what is the kernel start address offset into the image? |
| 16:23.38 | T0mW | unknown. I think that I will have to crack this one I have apart, attach the bdi2000 to the jtag and suck the Flash out. |
| 16:24.14 | GPSFan | you don't need tehbdi to do that, just boot up from sd and dump the mtd partitions. |
| 16:24.24 | T0mW | ah, right |
| 16:24.36 | T0mW | working with the hammer right now |
| 16:25.30 | GPSFan | I've compared a blob I compiled to the mtd0 and it matches almost exactly. what's different is after the code segment, not really sure why yet. |
| 16:25.30 | g1powermac | interesting |
| 16:58.27 | sunrunner20 | T0mW: doesn't it have a JTAG port? |
| 16:58.37 | T0mW | sunrunner20: what? |
| 16:58.50 | sunrunner20 | [11:22:34] <T0mW> GPSFan: that is how I bricked the other unit, I used the MTD stuff to store a compressed zImage |
| 16:59.47 | T0mW | sunrunner20: there is no "marked" jtag port, just appears that the signals are there for a factory bed of nails to hit some pads and jtag it from there. but no header |
| 17:00.00 | sunrunner20 | make one :) |
| 17:00.07 | T0mW | yeah |
| 17:00.19 | T0mW | just need to get the microscope out |
| 17:00.23 | sunrunner20 | jtag is just .1" centers |
| 17:00.30 | sunrunner20 | well |
| 17:00.38 | sunrunner20 | the normal connectors are |
| 17:00.53 | sunrunner20 | iirc |
| 17:01.17 | T0mW | sunrunner20: yes, but, there is no place on the PCB for a header, per se. You have to create your own 30ga jumpers to a dangling header |
| 17:01.37 | sunrunner20 | i would hot glue it near the origional |
| 17:02.14 | sunrunner20 | solder to a right angle peice of .1" centers |
| 17:02.28 | sunrunner20 | you know what I'm talking about when I say .1" centers right? |
| 17:02.31 | T0mW | sunrunner20: in the scheme of things, it is not important. We have it booting our own filesystem now, just that some people want to go deeper and have the ability to replace the resident kernel (I don't care at this point). |
| 17:03.18 | sunrunner20 | continues on his resume |
| 17:03.27 | T0mW | sunrunner20: give this a quick look, http://www.elinux.org/upload/1/1c/Zipit-jtag.jpg |
| 17:03.36 | T0mW | sunrunner20: you'll see what we mean |
| 17:04.20 | sunrunner20 | yea |
| 17:04.26 | sunrunner20 | still |
| 17:04.31 | sunrunner20 | pluty of space for a header :) |
| 17:04.45 | sunrunner20 | do i see wifi? |
| 17:04.52 | sunrunner20 | or is it BT |
| 17:04.54 | T0mW | it is a handheld device without much room inside the case, clearance is very tight |
| 17:05.18 | T0mW | you could dangle the wires out the back |
| 17:05.39 | g1powermac | sunrunner20, yes, it has wifi |
| 17:05.50 | g1powermac | sunrunner20, http://zipit2system.sourceforge.net/jtag.html |
| 17:06.05 | g1powermac | http://zipit2system.sourceforge.net/index.html |
| 17:06.58 | sunrunner20 | god |
| 17:07.04 | sunrunner20 | that this has more RAM than my nintendo DS |
| 17:07.07 | sunrunner20 | its kinda pathetic |
| 17:07.24 | T0mW | g1powermac: I suspect that you may find some masked pads on the bottom of the PCB, under the keyboard membrane, that would expose those jtag pads? |
| 17:07.47 | g1powermac | T0mW, hmm, good question |
| 17:08.14 | sunrunner20 | hmmm |
| 17:08.17 | g1powermac | I did take a shot of the bottom of the board before shipping it out to prpplague http://zipit2system.sourceforge.net/images/zipitback.jpg |
| 17:08.24 | sunrunner20 | some of those voltages i would be weary to touch |
| 17:08.31 | T0mW | g1powermac: I think that it would be a bed-of-nails that they use in production testing / initial programming. |
| 17:08.58 | T0mW | g1powermac: you know what a bed-of-nails fixture is, right? |
| 17:09.17 | sunrunner20 | looks like some of them could be voltage deviders |
| 17:09.34 | g1powermac | T0mW, what I wonder is, what are those unpopulated things at the top of the underside of the board |
| 17:09.39 | g1powermac | T0mW, kind of |
| 17:09.49 | sunrunner20 | T0mW: you said you have a briked zipit? |
| 17:12.15 | T0mW | g1powermac: two approaches are common: a clamshell style and a rubber membrane style. In both cases, alignment pins are present in the fixture so that the board can be precisely placed into it. Then a series of spring loaded "nails" are mounted in the fixture such that when it is either closed (clamshell) or a vacuum applied under the membrane the board is brought into contact with the nails. The nails hit pads / traces on the PCB. |
| 17:12.28 | T0mW | g1powermac: the nails are wired to a connector on the fixture. |
| 17:12.51 | sunrunner20 | g1powermac: link |
| 17:13.15 | sunrunner20 | oh |
| 17:13.19 | T0mW | g1powermac: this way, you can power up the board and seize control of the circuity / or / run the board and look at signals on it. |
| 17:13.21 | sunrunner20 | the 8 pin pads? |
| 17:13.44 | T0mW | did a few year of ATE (AutoTest Engineering) |
| 17:14.03 | RobotGuy | is away: Off to the store |
| 17:15.00 | g1powermac | T0mW, interesting |
| 17:16.42 | g1powermac | was with a sales rep there for a bit |
| 17:17.12 | g1powermac | sunrunner20, yes |
| 17:17.12 | T0mW | g1powermac: this is a lousy picture of a bed-of-nails fixture, but you get the idea,http://www.testcrafters.com/htm/Genrad_IsoVac.gif |
| 17:17.26 | g1powermac | sunrunner20, the top of the board has two of them as well |
| 17:17.31 | T0mW | that is a vacuum head |
| 17:17.46 | g1powermac | very interesting |
| 17:18.22 | T0mW | suckers cost a lot to have them built |
| 17:18.41 | T0mW | usually around $10K..$20K |
| 17:18.46 | g1powermac | ouch |
| 17:19.16 | g1powermac | guess you need it when making large batches of boards |
| 17:19.17 | T0mW | but, when you do volume, it is cheaper than having to pay an electronics tech to test boards |
| 17:19.54 | T0mW | when you get into hundreds of boards per month, it is cost effective |
| 17:20.12 | sunrunner20 | or thousands |
| 17:20.51 | g1powermac | well, I hope prpplague still gets a zipit or two, would love to see what he finds when depopulating a board |
| 17:21.13 | T0mW | something different happens when you go into thousands, you stop testing each board at that point and use an AQL method (Acceptable Quality Level). Meaning, your customers find the bad ones.... |
| 17:22.12 | T0mW | if you keep your AQL reject rate under a certain level, nobody gives a damn, except the poor customer that gets a bad one. |
| 17:22.18 | T0mW | :P |
| 17:22.48 | g1powermac | heh |
| 17:23.19 | T0mW | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+aql&btnG=Google+Search |
| 17:33.35 | g1powermac | wishes he had his zipit. . . |
| 17:33.52 | g1powermac | I'm dying to play with it |
| 17:35.28 | GPSFan | g1powermac: by hand editing the original blob binary to remove the first stage bootloader, I can download it to the z2 and "reblob" and it starts up, sends out several messages and then hangs. So that implies that the reblob code is functional but the blob I compiled from their source doesn't work. |
| 17:35.54 | g1powermac | interesting |
| 17:36.09 | g1powermac | so they haven't released everything they should have. . . |
| 17:36.45 | T0mW | GPSFan: are you surprised by this? |
| 17:36.51 | T0mW | heh |
| 17:36.59 | GPSFan | not at all. |
| 17:37.06 | T0mW | lol |
| 17:37.38 | GPSFan | I'm just trying to figure out which of the blob commands are actually functional. |
| 17:37.38 | chouimat|work | returns from lunch |
| 17:41.36 | GPSFan | g1powermac: I don't really know. their first set of patches wouldn't apply properly, their second set was somewhat better. Compiling it found a bund of other stuff, now it's testing time. I'll probably have to turn on some debugging inside blob. it's probably a simple fix. |
| 17:41.54 | g1powermac | interesting |
| 17:43.11 | GPSFan | the supposed advantage of blob is that you can test a new blob/kernel/rootfs before reflashing it. |
| 17:43.27 | g1powermac | hmm, that is interesting |
| 17:43.38 | Lars_G | dances for he has an usb hub |
| 17:43.57 | g1powermac | heh |
| 17:44.03 | g1powermac | has a few floating around :-) |
| 17:44.35 | Lars_G | me too but i wanted work to provide this one |
| 17:44.47 | g1powermac | T0mW, you think maybe usb host might be brought out to one of the test pads? |
| 17:45.24 | T0mW | probably not, isn't that on that 36 pin connector of the rear panel? |
| 17:45.30 | Lars_G | Maybe the blobs are signed.... |
| 17:45.32 | g1powermac | no, only usb device |
| 17:45.36 | Lars_G | common practice... |
| 17:46.10 | GPSFan | Lars_G: binary blob's yes, but not blob the bootloader |
| 17:46.32 | Lars_G | nod ok |
| 17:47.33 | GPSFan | most blob development stopped in 2002 |
| 17:47.44 | g1powermac | wonder why |
| 17:48.20 | GPSFan | new "full featured" bloatloaders appeared |
| 17:49.11 | *** join/#edev flavioribeiro (n=flavio@189.43.63.147) |
| 17:51.35 | Lars_G | http://dot.kde.org/1210288097/ |
| 17:53.42 | g1powermac | woot, analog samples came in today |
| 17:53.54 | g1powermac | plus a couple of books I ordered |
| 17:54.45 | Lars_G | g1powermac: you should be called sampleman |
| 17:54.47 | Lars_G | :P lol |
| 17:54.53 | g1powermac | hehe |
| 17:55.06 | Lars_G | g1powermac: btw whathever came of your fpga based LAs? sold all of those? got them to work? |
| 17:55.35 | g1powermac | yup, and yup |
| 17:55.47 | g1powermac | I do have one left, but not sure yet what to do with it |
| 17:55.47 | chouimat|work | cool 16GB fro 700$ ... /me orders |
| 17:56.32 | g1powermac | mmm, nice book |
| 17:56.38 | Lars_G | g1powermac: use it? :P |
| 17:56.54 | Lars_G | g1powermac: if I had dollars I'd offer something for it. |
| 17:58.08 | g1powermac | I've used it once, but then i stopped my electronics stuff |
| 18:01.42 | g1powermac | hopefully will get to use it now |
| 18:14.22 | prpplague | returns |
| 18:15.09 | RobotGuy-Out | returns. |
| 18:15.42 | GPSFan | prpplague: http://www.pastebin.ca/1012946 |
| 18:15.44 | chouimat|work | hides the dead bodies under the rug |
| 18:17.59 | prpplague | looks |
| 18:18.21 | RobotGuy | hides under a rug |
| 18:18.24 | prpplague | lovely |
| 18:18.39 | prpplague | GPSFan: you registered a machine id for th z2 yet? |
| 18:18.41 | GPSFan | prpplague: yeah a bit of progress ;>) |
| 18:18.50 | GPSFan | no. |
| 18:20.11 | prpplague | g1powermac: blob dev really stopped mainly because blob was design around working primarily with strongarm devices |
| 18:20.34 | prpplague | g1powermac: althought it can be modified to work with other arm arch's, the amount of work was significant |
| 18:20.47 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 18:21.12 | prpplague | g1powermac: most people started either doing one of two things |
| 18:21.14 | roxfan2 | kindle is using u-boot, it's also a pxa270 |
| 18:21.16 | RobotGuy | still has no TCT package. :( |
| 18:21.18 | GPSFan | g1powermac: that pastebin is my kernel booting. |
| 18:21.30 | g1powermac | GPSFan, nice |
| 18:21.34 | prpplague | g1powermac: custom bootloader that was very small and very hardcoded for the specific platform |
| 18:21.51 | prpplague | g1powermac: or they would use something like u-boot which was very generic and had lots of features |
| 18:22.01 | prpplague | g1powermac: there wasn't much middle ground |
| 18:22.11 | prpplague | g1powermac: hence the appearance of apex |
| 18:22.12 | g1powermac | interesting |
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| 18:22.35 | prpplague | g1powermac: apex has alot of the smallness of blob, but with the organization of uboot |
| 18:23.15 | prpplague | g1powermac: average build of apex is just 16k |
| 18:23.15 | prpplague | g1powermac: where as an average build of uboot will usually be about 120k |
| 18:23.15 | RobotGuy | Can APEX boot a regular Linux type system, like from a thumb drive? |
| 18:23.17 | GPSFan | prpplague: would really be nice to have apex on the z2 |
| 18:23.32 | prpplague | RobotGuy: not sure i understand your question |
| 18:23.36 | prpplague | GPSFan: indeed |
| 18:23.42 | GPSFan | and boot from mmc or flash |
| 18:23.49 | g1powermac | reads about apex now |
| 18:24.02 | GPSFan | goes in search of lunch |
| 18:24.08 | RobotGuy | I give up. Can't communicate. :( |
| 18:24.23 | prpplague | g1powermac: oh, and to answer your question about the unpopulated pads, those are for resistor packs |
| 18:24.30 | prpplague | g1powermac: probably to control ringing |
| 18:24.54 | prpplague | RobotGuy: try again, just provide more details |
| 18:25.13 | g1powermac | prpplague, interesting |
| 18:28.35 | g1powermac | yea, apex is quite nice now that I have read its page over |
| 18:30.01 | g1powermac | personally, I'd like to build an entire system that is completely separate from the zipit stuff |
| 18:30.17 | g1powermac | now that we have jtag and the serial port |
| 18:31.37 | prpplague | apex doesn't have full support for pxa27x right now, but it does have the ixp support which is very similiar |
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| 18:33.12 | g1powermac | yea |
| 18:33.55 | like2wise_ | u-boot does too |
| 18:35.13 | prpplague | like2wise_: ?? does too what? |
| 18:35.42 | like2wise_ | prpplague: u-boot does have the ixp4xx support |
| 18:36.06 | prpplague | like2wise_: ok, but does it have pxa27xx support? |
| 18:36.43 | like2wise_ | prpplague: probably not, haven't checked if that is upstream or in the works |
| 18:37.56 | prpplague | i suspect there has to be pxa27x support for uboot somewhere |
| 18:40.56 | roxfan2 | <roxfan2> kindle is using u-boot, it's also a pxa270 |
| 18:41.06 | roxfan2 | (amazon kindle, that is) |
| 18:41.48 | roxfan2 | sources are available from amazon |
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| 18:45.12 | prpplague | roxfan2: AHH |
| 18:45.37 | prpplague | roxfan2: you could grab most of the u-boot pxa27x support and add it into apex fairly easy |
| 18:48.57 | Lars_G | prpplague: tell me something, what is the hammer's bootloadder based on? |
| 18:49.05 | Crofton | apex |
| 18:49.23 | prpplague | Lars_G: apex |
| 18:49.45 | prpplague | i ported apex to the s3c24xx myself |
| 18:51.39 | Lars_G | Why apex over others? |
| 18:52.34 | Lars_G | I'm just curious |
| 18:52.36 | prpplague | <prpplague> g1powermac: apex has alot of the smallness of blob, but with the organization of uboot |
| 18:52.37 | prpplague | <prpplague> g1powermac: average build of apex is just 16k |
| 18:52.37 | prpplague | <prpplague> g1powermac: where as an average build of uboot will usually be about 120k |
| 18:52.55 | Lars_G | Ah good reason |
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| 19:09.33 | *** join/#edev magnetron (n=magnetro@unaffiliated/magnetron) |
| 19:09.36 | *** join/#edev RobotGuy (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 19:13.18 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, SpeedEvil, prpplague: interesting article on clustering/distributed/parallel computing using embedded devices: http://www.itnews.com.au/Feature/4482,researcher-discusses-ipod-supercomputer.aspx |
| 19:13.36 | prpplague | looks |
| 19:13.37 | Lars_G | g1powermac: btw the AVC misshap you mentioned has been "mended" |
| 19:13.46 | g1powermac | figures its from the guys at UC Berkeley |
| 19:13.52 | g1powermac | Lars_G, I know |
| 19:14.15 | Lars_G | I didn't take it too well when i read it since I'm a dissatisfied coreplayer client |
| 19:14.28 | g1powermac | the Berkeley guys made an awesome board called the RAMP, which was an array of fpga to test different parallel systems |
| 19:16.09 | g1powermac | heres some more stuff: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/75477,us-boffins-design-ipod-supercomputer.aspx |
| 19:17.27 | prpplague | ce_geek: hows your doc going? |
| 19:19.01 | g1powermac | here's the RAMP stuff, its pretty impressive: http://ramp.eecs.berkeley.edu/ |
| 19:20.15 | g1powermac | I read about that stuff back when I did alot of that stuff |
| 19:21.51 | RobotGuy | I wonder how many S3C2440A or similar processors it would take to equal the fastest AMD or Intel Pentium chips. |
| 19:22.08 | like2wise_ | g1powermac, Lars_G: could you expand on the "AVC misshap"? Something related to corecodec's avc en/decoder? |
| 19:22.13 | RobotGuy | Or how many Hammers it would take. |
| 19:22.42 | Lars_G | like2wise_: Yep. there's a gpl wrapper to be able to use corecodec's avc decoder windows version with ffmpeg in linux. |
| 19:22.53 | Lars_G | like2wise_: corecodec legal sent them a takedown under the dmca |
| 19:23.13 | like2wise_ | Lars_G: ah. |
| 19:23.15 | Lars_G | like2wise_: latter betaboy from corecoded reviewed the thing, and retracted the takedown saying "sorry sorry sorry sorry" |
| 19:23.15 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, idk, really, it would be pretty hard to quantify it |
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| 19:23.36 | like2wise_ | Lars_G: LOL |
| 19:23.48 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, its like comparing ppc chips to x86, and variants of each arch within them |
| 19:24.06 | Lars_G | Which is amazing. Since corecodec people never paid any attention to me on forums or IRC... they only paid attention from time to time to delete the posts from clients angry at them constantly missing their release deadlines |
| 19:24.22 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I'm just thinking in terms of raw processing power. |
| 19:24.38 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, well, thats the thing, its really hard to compare |
| 19:24.43 | like2wise_ | Lars_G: they still not supporting Linux properly, even commercially? |
| 19:24.47 | Lars_G | I wonder... how many bogomips does the hammer clock at? |
| 19:25.11 | g1powermac | it depends not only on actual clock speed, but also in terms of their ISAs, their pipeline structure, what you're computing, and so on |
| 19:25.12 | Lars_G | like2wise_: afaik not yet but I've not checked. the player was comming soon but they don't know how to comercialize the avc library.. |
| 19:25.25 | ali_as | Not sure thats a great measure, I think it said 100 bogomips. |
| 19:25.34 | ali_as | But something is broken there. |
| 19:25.40 | Lars_G | like2wise_: I was going to recommend them to copy fluendo's schema. but I forgot my forum login and I dont want to look after it. |
| 19:25.45 | g1powermac | heh, bogomips |
| 19:26.01 | prpplague | Lars_G: the hammer is 100 bogomips, but as the name implies "bogus", it is not a vey good measure of computing power |
| 19:26.41 | ali_as | 1 clock on an ARM can do up to the equivalent of 1 to 3 x86 instructions typically. |
| 19:26.52 | RobotGuy | I get my TCT package on May 15th. :( |
| 19:27.03 | prpplague | ali_as: that is not entirely accurate |
| 19:27.03 | Lars_G | prpplague: Well IS there any reliable, really representative meassure of computing power out there? |
| 19:27.23 | Lars_G | all the pc-magazine era benchmarks where comparative and not too representative. |
| 19:27.24 | prpplague | Lars_G: not that i am aware of |
| 19:27.26 | ali_as | Integer instructions, and ignoring a bunch of rarer highly CISC stuff. |
| 19:27.26 | Lars_G | bogomips either. |
| 19:27.27 | RobotGuy | It was apparently just shipped today. |
| 19:27.35 | Lars_G | intel-pushed MHZ numbers ain't either. |
| 19:27.49 | prpplague | ali_as: different arm cores have different pipe sizes |
| 19:27.52 | Lars_G | prpplague: What i wonder is, don't the hard realtime guys NEED this? |
| 19:28.28 | g1powermac | ali_as, that might work for general stuff |
| 19:28.37 | prpplague | RobotGuy: uh are you sure? |
| 19:28.42 | prpplague | RobotGuy: who said so? |
| 19:28.50 | RobotGuy | That's what the e-mail I just got from UPS says. |
| 19:28.52 | ali_as | Pipe length mainly determines latency, not throughput though? |
| 19:29.13 | prpplague | RobotGuy: from tct? |
| 19:29.43 | prpplague | RobotGuy: because it should have showed from AML |
| 19:30.29 | g1powermac | that table on wikipedia showing bogomips is quite interesting |
| 19:30.35 | prpplague | goes to meeting |
| 19:30.42 | g1powermac | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BogoMips |
| 19:31.08 | g1powermac | especially showing the 68060 being more 'powerful' than the current c2ds |
| 19:31.46 | RobotGuy | prpplague: See PM |
| 19:32.09 | Lars_G | I was going to make a joke about prpplague and his meetings but I have one in a few |
| 19:32.38 | RobotGuy | Oh wait, diffrerent package |
| 19:35.14 | ali_as | I was under the impression bogomips was just a nop loop. |
| 19:35.26 | g1powermac | ali_as, pretty much |
| 19:35.28 | ali_as | That table is nuts though. |
| 19:36.46 | ali_as | Athlon running at half the bogomips per clock of a Pentium MMX where the former is 3 way superscaler and the latter 2. |
| 19:44.21 | Lars_G | Tell me something, isn't arm the best thing to happen to embedded in a while? |
| 19:44.39 | Lars_G | the arm core is sure 21'th centurie's 8051 |
| 19:45.01 | ali_as | ARM has been happening to embedded for a good 10 years at least. |
| 19:45.04 | chouimat|work | more like the 6502 :) |
| 19:45.54 | g1powermac | mmm, 8051 |
| 19:46.21 | Lars_G | ali_as: yes but the explosion is more recent |
| 19:46.36 | Lars_G | ali_as: it started a little before Intel aquired it from dec |
| 19:46.56 | Lars_G | Anyhow I admire the acorn guys just for introducing arm |
| 19:47.07 | g1powermac | what? no comment from Lars_G? ;-) |
| 19:47.14 | Lars_G | sigh I mentioned 8051 in front of g1powermac.... |
| 19:47.22 | Lars_G | I forgot the fetichist was here |
| 19:47.23 | prpplague | RobotGuy: oh, i wish i'd know rusty was shipping you some stuff i'd have just included the hammer replacement with that |
| 19:47.30 | g1powermac | hehehe |
| 19:47.36 | prpplague | Lars_G: friday is usually the only meeting day |
| 19:47.55 | Lars_G | prpplague: Lucky you, being CIO at work #1 the whole week is meeting day |
| 19:48.00 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Sorry. I didn't know you didn't know. |
| 19:48.29 | ali_as | WHen you think the original ARM was only designed about 10 years after the 4004.... |
| 19:48.41 | Lars_G | ali_as: And how nicely it has scaled |
| 19:48.43 | g1powermac | Lars_G, sigh, try being the only guy who knows anything about technology for your whole company |
| 19:48.54 | prpplague | ali_as: correct pipe length does affect latency but depending on how it is tested it also has a major effect on overall performance |
| 19:48.55 | chouimat|work | RobotGuy: and me I didn't know that you didn't know that he didn't know :) |
| 19:49.01 | RobotGuy | prpplague: I'm really confused now. |
| 19:49.04 | Lars_G | ali_as: again it has the same power as the 8051 but in a 32bit world. a stable core with enough options in chips and peripherals to fill any niche |
| 19:49.31 | Lars_G | I don't know what you guys didn't know about. |
| 19:49.32 | prpplague | ali_as: a good example is that a ARM9 such as the s3c2410 running at 200mhz can perform as well as a xscale at 400mhz |
| 19:49.33 | g1powermac | Lars_G, and just about as open as the 8051, with lots of different companies making different arms |
| 19:49.55 | Lars_G | g1powermac: exactly |
| 19:50.19 | ali_as | prpplague, under what circumstances, tight loops? Or just with both chips unpowered...... |
| 19:50.25 | Lars_G | Still clear me up something, the intellectual property of the arm's arch is Intel's now... or did they get only one implementation more with dec? |
| 19:50.46 | g1powermac | is it still owned by intel? |
| 19:50.53 | g1powermac | I know intel sold off the xscale stuff |
| 19:50.55 | ali_as | Well, they sold that to Marvell. |
| 19:50.58 | g1powermac | to marvell |
| 19:50.59 | prpplague | ali_as: mostly with non-optomized coding |
| 19:51.04 | Lars_G | oh my .... |
| 19:51.17 | Lars_G | I hope they don't drop the ball |
| 19:51.28 | prpplague | ali_as: if you take off the shelf software such as a stock windows ce build |
| 19:51.30 | g1powermac | well, its a marvell xscale in the zipit. . . |
| 19:51.43 | prpplague | ali_as: load it up on a s3c2410 and also on a pxa25x |
| 19:51.49 | ali_as | prpplague, not a fan of unoptimised code as a concept or an answer, do you have some specific examples? |
| 19:52.15 | prpplague | ali_as: nothing that you can replicate or use |
| 19:52.23 | prpplague | ali_as: only our in house testing can i quote |
| 19:52.42 | prpplague | ali_as: iirc there were some reviews of some of the ipaq's |
| 19:52.48 | prpplague | ali_as: with performance comparisons |
| 19:52.50 | ali_as | And you didn't profile the code to find out why? |
| 19:53.33 | prpplague | ali_as: no, it wasn't a high priority item |
| 19:54.10 | ali_as | An ARM getting half the performance it the sort of thing that would make me rip everything to bits to find out why. |
| 19:54.40 | prpplague | ali_as: sorry i don't see it as getting half |
| 19:55.47 | prpplague | ali_as: http://www.mobiletechreview.com/ipaq_1940.htm |
| 19:55.58 | ali_as | I see a field of two hundred million tiny coffins, one for each clock cycle that died in vain.... |
| 19:56.01 | prpplague | ali_as: there are some comparison someone ran on the s3c2410 based item |
| 19:56.16 | RobotGuy | I was looking at the iPAQ 310 and RX5900 today. I like that 310! |
| 19:56.52 | g1powermac | ali_as, haha, thats great |
| 19:57.53 | prpplague | ali_as: for me higher clock cycles just means more power usage |
| 19:58.10 | prpplague | ali_as: so if i can get reasonable performance at lower clock cycles, i'm happy |
| 19:58.16 | RobotGuy | It would be easy to fit several Hammers on a single board. |
| 19:59.33 | prpplague | RobotGuy: hehe, you have a total fetish for hooking multiple hammer boards! |
| 19:59.45 | prpplague | goes to get kids |
| 19:59.55 | g1powermac | not as bad as my fetish for 8051s ;-) |
| 20:00.07 | g1powermac | Lars_G can attest for that ;-) |
| 20:00.18 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: TMI |
| 20:00.24 | RobotGuy | prpplague: Not at all. I just want something I can tinker with distributed computing on, like beowulf clusters, etc. I want to learn about that. |
| 20:00.30 | g1powermac | hahahaha |
| 20:01.24 | RobotGuy | sighs |
| 20:01.46 | ali_as | tries to imagine what the children would be like if one of the IC pins went through the condom. |
| 20:01.57 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, I still think using the hammers for that kind of thing to be really interesting |
| 20:02.24 | g1powermac | falls off his chair laughing |
| 20:02.36 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I do too! I wish I could do it but I can't afford as many Hammers as I would want (at least 4). |
| 20:03.12 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, ya, wish I had that idea back when prpplague was giving away free hammers to do cool stuff with |
| 20:03.48 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I would love to see something like a distributed computing board with up to 8 Hammers. |
| 20:04.01 | g1powermac | instead I recommended giving my sample off to someone else as I had no time to do anything with it at that time |
| 20:04.11 | g1powermac | and sadly that person took the hammer and did nothing with it |
| 20:04.23 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I was fortunate to get a free hammer kit. :D |
| 20:04.40 | g1powermac | and then fell off irc |
| 20:04.59 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: That is so sad! A Hammer going unused? |
| 20:05.05 | g1powermac | yup |
| 20:05.22 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: That's awful. |
| 20:05.33 | g1powermac | unfortunately that guy wasn't the only one either |
| 20:06.14 | RobotGuy | Hammers would be an idea low cost (relatively) way to experiment with clustering, distributed computing, etc. |
| 20:06.45 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, you know, you could stick the hammer on a so-dimm like board, I think. . . |
| 20:07.05 | g1powermac | or another type thing |
| 20:07.17 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: It would be too high to stack boards close enough to make a nice short stack. It has that JTAG connector on it. |
| 20:07.25 | g1powermac | to make a low footprint on the main pcb |
| 20:07.39 | g1powermac | hmm |
| 20:07.56 | g1powermac | can't you link all the jtag ports together? |
| 20:08.12 | g1powermac | and have it all come off one connector? |
| 20:08.24 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: It might be possible to put two hammers on a single SODIMM form factor board. Maybe even 3 or 4. I don't know the SODIMM dimensions. There is an SODIMM 200 and an SODIMM 525 configuration. |
| 20:09.18 | g1powermac | yea |
| 20:09.48 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I'm not sure linking JTAG would be good and/or workable. The same exact software config would have to be on each hammer. It might limit configuring hammers for different setups. |
| 20:10.29 | g1powermac | maybe, I'd have to research it some more |
| 20:11.04 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: I'd want the flexibility to assign different hammers to different tasks, or group hammers in various ways. |
| 20:12.06 | g1powermac | yea |
| 20:12.45 | g1powermac | what about this. . .having one large fpga combine all the hammers together and optimize on the fly how they're all configured to do certain tasks on a need basis |
| 20:13.09 | g1powermac | had ideas like this right before he stopped his electronics stuff |
| 20:13.29 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: Now THAT would be *very* interesting.. |
| 20:14.02 | g1powermac | was going to do something like this with m68k procs I have |
| 20:14.25 | g1powermac | got a batch of old 64 pin DIP m68ks sitting around doing nothing |
| 20:14.51 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: Is there a part link I can look at? |
| 20:15.06 | g1powermac | part link? |
| 20:15.23 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: part number. specs |
| 20:15.43 | g1powermac | motorola 68000 procs are completely outdated and not made anymore, especially in 64 pin DIPs |
| 20:15.49 | ali_as | INMOS had a decent idea, each transputer cpu has 4 OSLinks and can boot from them. |
| 20:16.06 | ali_as | So CPUs boot, and then boot the chips next to them. |
| 20:16.08 | g1powermac | the current m68k stuff on the market now are the coldfire cpus from freescale |
| 20:16.16 | *** join/#edev pawonfire (n=chatzill@208.132.246.102) |
| 20:16.18 | g1powermac | ali_as, yea, I love the transputer :-) |
| 20:16.27 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: Outdated is better than nothing. I know there must be C toolchains for them. |
| 20:16.41 | ali_as | Transputer is now the core of most set top boxes in Europe. |
| 20:16.43 | RobotGuy | Yeah, I have looked at the Coldfire stuff. |
| 20:16.46 | g1powermac | somewhat, you won't get standard linux on a 6800 |
| 20:16.49 | RobotGuy | It |
| 20:16.56 | g1powermac | err, 68000 |
| 20:16.57 | RobotGuy | It's all BGA. :( ;( |
| 20:17.06 | g1powermac | 6800 is a different chip altogether :-) |
| 20:17.19 | RobotGuy | Oh, I thought you were talkng about 68K |
| 20:17.35 | g1powermac | I am |
| 20:17.43 | g1powermac | I just missed a 0 :-) |
| 20:17.49 | RobotGuy | Oh. :P |
| 20:17.50 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: I have a working 68B09E based computer at home :) |
| 20:18.01 | g1powermac | chouimat|work, kewl |
| 20:18.11 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: Color Computer 3 |
| 20:18.24 | g1powermac | RobotGuy, not everything is bga |
| 20:18.42 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: In Coldfire? |
| 20:18.42 | g1powermac | hold on, lemme find some stuff. . . |
| 20:19.10 | RobotGuy | It has to be able to run Linux, but I bet they won't be sampling it. |
| 20:19.26 | g1powermac | wow, freescale still makes pure 68000s: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MC68000&webpageId=M934310184622&nodeId=0162468rH3YTLC61654622&fromPage=tax |
| 20:19.29 | g1powermac | I'm surprised |
| 20:19.35 | chouimat|work | g1powermac: btw running qemuarm on a mac pro enable you to natively compile stuff for arm :) |
| 20:20.32 | g1powermac | here's some of the new 68k variants but not coldfire: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=0162468rH3YTLC61650795 |
| 20:20.35 | g1powermac | all qfps |
| 20:21.15 | g1powermac | whether they'll run full linux, I'm not sure |
| 20:21.25 | g1powermac | you'd have to check to see if they have mmus in them |
| 20:21.48 | g1powermac | you can run uclinux on them though |
| 20:22.24 | *** join/#edev roxfan2 (n=dunno@135.48-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be) |
| 20:23.29 | g1powermac | even some of the really new coldfires have qfp packages |
| 20:23.35 | g1powermac | http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCF540X&nodeId=0162468rH3YTLC00M93426 |
| 20:24.59 | g1powermac | no clue about linux support though |
| 20:25.15 | g1powermac | back when I was researching this stuff I wasn't interested in getting linux to run on them |
| 20:25.26 | g1powermac | I was planning on running my custom code directly on the chips |
| 20:29.18 | like2wise_ | g1powermac: coldfire has uclinux and full linux support. The toolchain took ages to get upstream though... |
| 20:29.25 | prpplague | returns |
| 20:29.35 | prpplague | child processes successfully retrieved |
| 20:29.50 | g1powermac | like2wise_, ahh, k |
| 20:30.02 | g1powermac | like2wise_, I knew about uclinux, especially for the old 68000 |
| 20:30.23 | like2wise_ | worked with the 5349, then 5474, then dropped high-end Coldfire for a low-end PowerPC 8313 |
| 20:30.38 | g1powermac | ppc is cool |
| 20:30.54 | g1powermac | what are these M-CORE chips from freescale though. . . |
| 20:30.59 | like2wise_ | Especially the P.A. Semi runs cool :-) |
| 20:31.04 | like2wise_ | M-Core = ARM AFAIK |
| 20:31.12 | g1powermac | is it? |
| 20:31.24 | like2wise_ | imx21, imx27 and imx31 are ARM, yes |
| 20:31.41 | like2wise_ | for sure. I suppose that's called the m-core range |
| 20:31.55 | g1powermac | hmm, interesting, wonder why they didn't put them in the arm section |
| 20:32.04 | like2wise_ | dropped imx27 and went for the Atmel AVR32 :-) |
| 20:32.13 | g1powermac | http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MMC2001&nodeId=0162468rH3b8yr |
| 20:32.16 | g1powermac | nice looking chip |
| 20:32.43 | roxfan2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freescale_products lists mcore separately |
| 20:32.49 | like2wise_ | g1powermac: I'm NOT sure if m-core = imx21, looks like not. |
| 20:32.55 | g1powermac | ahh |
| 20:33.05 | prpplague | ce_geek: i can't figure out why your pdf is sooooo big |
| 20:33.28 | roxfan2 | looks like some proprietary architecture |
| 20:34.01 | roxfan2 | maybe you confused it with Cortex-M3 which is armv7 |
| 20:34.02 | g1powermac | seems that way |
| 20:35.36 | g1powermac | http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MMC2114&webpageId=M0ylsb8yr&nodeId=0162468rH3b8yr&fromPage=tax |
| 20:35.47 | RobotGuy | like2wise_: I've been looking at the AVR32 chips, like the AP7001. |
| 20:35.58 | g1powermac | they're pretty nice in terms of that data bus for only a 144 pin package |
| 20:37.13 | RobotGuy | g1powermac: Wow. A 208 QFP in Coldfire. |
| 20:37.19 | g1powermac | yupper |
| 20:37.27 | g1powermac | I told you I have some :-) |
| 20:40.50 | g1powermac | ooo, freescale makes some pretty nice DSPs too |
| 20:43.03 | prpplague | ce_geek: not sure what you are doing to generate your pdf file, but it's like 10x the size it should be |
| 20:44.01 | roxfan2 | prerendered text? o.o |
| 20:44.24 | prpplague | ahh probably |
| 20:48.50 | RobotGuy | Freescale is messed up = their password reset does not work. :( |
| 20:49.17 | prpplague | lovely - pdf2ps - ps2pdf12 |
| 20:49.33 | prpplague | -rw-rw-r-- 1 dave dave 1384935 2008-05-09 15:48 hammer_doc2.pdf |
| 20:49.33 | prpplague | -rw-rw-r-- 1 dave dave 18427301 2008-05-09 14:18 hammer_doc.pdf |
| 20:49.33 | prpplague | -rw-rw-r-- 1 dave dave 33061622 2008-05-09 15:47 hammer_doc.ps |
| 20:53.29 | like2wise_ | RobotGuy: that password reset stuff has indeed bothered me half a year ago already |
| 20:53.45 | g1powermac | I think I had trouble with it in the past as well |
| 20:56.19 | RobotGuy | I had to create a new account. |
| 20:57.48 | RobotGuy | Freescale is not making any sense to me. |
| 21:10.47 | *** part/#edev LyosNorezel (n=Ralph@unaffiliated/lyosnorezel) |
| 21:12.40 | g1powermac | mmm, this analog circuit design book is pretty good |
| 21:17.59 | ds2 | does it ship with a quart of chicken blood =) |
| 21:30.44 | RobotGuy | I can't find out if this Freescale MCF5407UM can run Linux or not. |
| 21:32.09 | roxfan | well there is a linux for coldfire afaik |
| 21:32.42 | roxfan | http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=0127260061033202A9 |
| 21:33.34 | like2wise_ | RobotGuy: uclinux |
| 21:33.58 | RobotGuy | I want full Linux. |
| 21:34.19 | SpeedEvil | Does it have an MMU |
| 21:34.27 | SpeedEvil | does it have 32 bit addressing. |
| 21:34.32 | like2wise_ | no, yes |
| 21:34.49 | like2wise_ | RobotGuy: go for the 5474 or ..75 part |
| 21:34.53 | like2wise_ | they are yes, yes |
| 21:35.02 | roxfan | no mmu = uclinux only, pretty much |
| 21:35.06 | SpeedEvil | Can it run several meg of RAM, nd have some access to mass storage |
| 21:35.16 | like2wise_ | es |
| 21:35.17 | like2wise_ | yes |
| 21:35.24 | Lars_G | g1powermac: Are you in your mac? |
| 21:35.28 | SpeedEvil | You could I suppose run qemu to emulte a MMU. |
| 21:35.34 | SpeedEvil | (though that would be silly) |
| 21:35.37 | RobotGuy | Those are BGA |
| 21:36.01 | g1powermac | Lars_G, yupper |
| 21:38.31 | Lars_G | g1powermac: can I msg you? the favor I wanna ask is OT |
| 21:39.04 | g1powermac | go for it, or, as always, ##microcontrollers is never OT :-) |
| 21:47.11 | RobotGuy | sighs |
| 21:48.57 | RobotGuy | I think I will convert my PC to Gentoo tomorrow. |
| 22:03.17 | prpplague | heads home |
| 22:04.27 | Lars_G | RobotGuy: carefull. |
| 22:04.40 | RobotGuy | Huh? |
| 22:04.56 | Lars_G | second. phone... |
| 22:05.24 | Lars_G | gentoo nice, but you have update often. else updates pile up quick, take long time |
| 22:07.55 | RobotGuy | I've run Gentoo before. :) |
| 22:12.43 | g1powermac | downloads an entire MIT open course. . . |
| 22:14.50 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (n=nobody@163.181.251.103) |
| 22:14.50 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 22:15.30 | Lars_G | g1powermac: don't they rock? |
| 22:16.01 | g1powermac | heck yea |
| 22:16.07 | g1powermac | downloading it directly from itunes |
| 22:37.21 | g1powermac | sigh, stupid data entry stuff. . . |
| 22:37.46 | g1powermac | thank goodness I'm going back to college in the fall |
| 22:46.24 | *** join/#edev RobotGUI (n=robotguy@dsl093-038-072.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 23:10.47 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-2400.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 23:28.54 | Mirell | Huh. I never knew of the immutable bit in Linux. |
| 23:30.54 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-2400.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 23:37.37 | Lars_G | immutable bit? |
| 23:38.49 | ds2 | Hmmm what is the smallest practical voltage for a Vref input? |
| 23:39.22 | ds2 | or asking in another way, if I want to look at 0.00V - 0.100V signals, can I give a ADC a 0.100V Vref and expect it to work? |
| 23:40.04 | roxfan | probably |
| 23:40.28 | ds2 | Hmmmm |
| 23:40.58 | SpeedEvil | maybe |
| 23:41.03 | SpeedEvil | what tends to happen. |
| 23:41.18 | SpeedEvil | Is that as you decrease the reference voltage below the normal range, noise rises. |
| 23:41.28 | SpeedEvil | Assuming it doesn't do anuything wierd. |
| 23:41.36 | ds2 | I see. how does one find the "normal range"? |
| 23:41.44 | SpeedEvil | Read the datasheet. |
| 23:41.55 | ds2 | trying to |
| 23:42.24 | SpeedEvil | If the noise at 0-5V input range is 0.2 bits, then it might be 20 bits at 0-0.05 |
| 23:42.26 | ds2 | I just see specs for input and those are relative to Vref |
| 23:42.36 | SpeedEvil | look at noise specs |
| 23:42.45 | SpeedEvil | not all will be relative to vref |
| 23:43.40 | ds2 | the only noise specs I see are in dBs relative to full scale |
| 23:44.33 | SpeedEvil | There will be two noise figures. |
| 23:44.42 | SpeedEvil | First you have the ideal noise - this is quantisation noise. |
| 23:44.50 | SpeedEvil | Then there is noise in excess of this. |
| 23:45.07 | SpeedEvil | in some datasheets they may be presented as one. |
| 23:45.20 | ds2 | this is for an onboard ADC :/ |
| 23:46.57 | ds2 | is this the same as taking the full scale error in # of LSBs and multiplying it by the Vref it is specified at and dividing it out by 2^#ofBits? |
| 23:47.14 | SpeedEvil | yes - I think so. |
| 23:48.04 | ds2 | okay, that gives me a ball park figure to work from |
| 23:48.19 | ds2 | trying to measure a small signal w/o a analog gain block |
| 23:48.21 | SpeedEvil | As a simply bypass to stop thinking too hard - add an opamp to buffer the input voltage. |
| 23:48.32 | *** join/#edev cajaka (n=none@cpe-74-67-237-9.twcny.res.rr.com) |
| 23:48.34 | ds2 | I know about that...trying to avoid that |
| 23:48.47 | SpeedEvil | Do you need the full number of bits? |
| 23:48.53 | ds2 | nope |
| 23:49.04 | SpeedEvil | How many do you need, and what's the ADC rated at? |
| 23:49.10 | SpeedEvil | bits. |
| 23:49.16 | ds2 | a quick estime shows I get about 7 usable bits (11mV noise); this is a 10bit ADC |
| 23:49.23 | ds2 | estimate |
| 23:49.41 | ds2 | I could tolerate it I suppose |
| 23:50.16 | SpeedEvil | As an absolute hard worst case, you can simply assume that teh noise remains at one bit equivalent of the ADC at its normal reference voltage. |
| 23:50.45 | SpeedEvil | What's the ADC? |
| 23:51.02 | SpeedEvil | or rather - link to datasheet if you'bve got it, and what page? |
| 23:51.10 | ds2 | it is the on board one on a C8051F368... one sec for the link |
| 23:51.19 | ds2 | http://www.silabs.com/public/documents/tpub_doc/dsheet/Microcontrollers/Small_Form_Factor/en/C8051F36x.pdf |
| 23:55.14 | SpeedEvil | Ok - page 62 looks interesting. |
| 23:55.38 | ds2 | yes, that's what I was pouring over |
| 23:55.50 | *** join/#edev Crofton (n=balister@12.185.225.21) |
| 23:57.42 | ds2 | I suppose it is easy enough to just try it |
| 23:59.00 | SpeedEvil | that specifies a tthe top vref=2.4v |
