| 00:18.23 | *** join/#edev Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-bbc9d75bffc8c2b0) |
| 00:41.02 | *** part/#edev pierrelux (n=pierre-l@144-125.sh.cgocable.ca) |
| 01:14.34 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.150.235) |
| 02:02.39 | *** join/#edev FireEgl (i=FireEgl@Sebastian.FireEgl.Com) |
| 02:28.11 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp182.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
| 04:07.12 | *** join/#edev Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-49ab4db57e7d4580) |
| 04:09.11 | jbevren | jokes aside, I feel for ya |
| 04:22.55 | MonMotha | if your allergies are that bad, you might want to talk to a doctor |
| 04:24.03 | flyback | uhh I am |
| 04:24.07 | flyback | started shots again |
| 04:24.20 | flyback | but going to take probably 6 months months to build back up |
| 04:24.28 | flyback | I can take dangerous levels of anti histomines |
| 04:24.29 | flyback | and nothing |
| 04:24.30 | flyback | :/ |
| 04:24.43 | flyback | about ready to inject myself with aids |
| 04:30.02 | *** join/#edev ccjoe (n=ccjoe@c-67-166-124-229.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 04:39.34 | MonMotha | well, that isn't likely to make things better... |
| 04:43.08 | flyback | I just want to spite my body at this point :P |
| 04:46.11 | MonMotha | "The package type of SiS307CP is 16928-pin BGA." |
| 04:46.17 | MonMotha | Holy crap, I don't think I want to route that... |
| 04:46.43 | flyback | WTF |
| 04:46.49 | flyback | i wouldn't even want to look at that |
| 04:46.54 | flyback | it would overwealm me |
| 04:46.59 | flyback | I might jump off a cliff |
| 04:47.11 | MonMotha | I'm guessing it's a typo... |
| 04:47.12 | flyback | how the hell do they even test or debug those |
| 04:47.20 | flyback | I mean the odds of a pin missing |
| 04:47.20 | flyback | ouch |
| 04:48.01 | MonMotha | that would be a 6.5cm square chip if it were a 0.5mm BGA with no center cutout, which is actaully a fairly dense BGA to route |
| 04:48.19 | flyback | I dunno how they do this shit |
| 04:48.26 | MonMotha | like I said, I'm guessing typo |
| 04:48.32 | flyback | I can't even look at a simple circuit without getting tied up in a mental knot |
| 04:48.37 | flyback | but I am a aspie so .... |
| 04:53.06 | davidc__ | MonMotha: heh, link to the DS? |
| 04:53.17 | MonMotha | davidc__: no datasheet available |
| 04:53.30 | MonMotha | just a flash sales presentation (that I didn't watch since I don't have flash installed and refuse to install it) |
| 04:53.44 | davidc__ | MonMotha: ah, thought thats where you got your 16k pin count from ;) |
| 04:54.12 | MonMotha | anybody know of a PCI/PCIe/AGP graphics card that I can get LVDS out of somehow, or a chipset I can buy in smallish (~1k) quantity that I could drop on a board and do the same? |
| 04:54.26 | MonMotha | davidc__: naw, was on the product brief page on SiS's website |
| 04:54.38 | MonMotha | SiS and Cirrus seem to have both stopped making cheapass VGA cards |
| 04:54.54 | flyback | oh you mean lvds display tech |
| 04:55.08 | flyback | davidc__ probably best bet is to probably get a SBC or mini-itx with it on it |
| 04:55.26 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I didn't know there was an LVDS standard for video transmission |
| 04:55.28 | flyback | MonMotha actually cirrus spun off their video division it because a embedded maker |
| 04:55.32 | flyback | dunno if they still are around |
| 04:55.40 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I just know of the LVDS signalling stanard |
| 04:56.00 | MonMotha | davidc__: it's commonly used in laptops for driving the LCDs |
| 04:56.06 | MonMotha | called PanelLink in some of those applications |
| 04:56.14 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yup -but LVDS is just a voltage spec |
| 04:56.15 | MonMotha | I only need really low res out of it (driving a smallish panel) |
| 04:56.29 | flyback | davidc__ what do you need this for ? |
| 04:56.33 | davidc__ | MonMotha: the protocol of the data on the wire / number of parallel lanes isn't specced by anything |
| 04:56.38 | davidc__ | flyback: I don't need it for anything :P |
| 04:56.39 | flyback | if you get a older tft pre-lvds you can drive it 16 colors |
| 04:56.45 | flyback | using a vga vesa feature connector |
| 04:56.47 | davidc__ | flyback: I was just trying to help MonMOtha |
| 04:56.52 | MonMotha | yes, but when I say I want a video card with LVDS output, I think the application is obvious (i.e. I want video on LVDS lines, and there are plenty of standards for that) |
| 04:56.59 | flyback | 256 max in theory of the spec |
| 04:57.07 | flyback | some guys are working on using cards with the short lived AVFC |
| 04:57.07 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah -I just didn't know if there was a standarcd |
| 04:57.11 | davidc__ | *standard |
| 04:57.12 | flyback | which would do the full 32 bit color |
| 04:57.31 | davidc__ | because the two lvds enabled panels I've seen were completely incompatible with each other |
| 04:57.36 | MonMotha | I have a couple LCDs already in mind (and sadly, they don't take LVDS directly, but I'm not about to pipe LVTTL/LVCMOS around on 1.5ft ribbons in a PC at several MHz and expect it to work right) |
| 04:57.49 | MonMotha | davidc__: usually it's just timing issues |
| 04:58.04 | flyback | MonMotha sounds like it's easier just to get a game console lcd |
| 04:58.05 | davidc__ | MonMotha: eh, it was the way they encoded the frame data that I was looking at IIRC |
| 04:58.07 | MonMotha | I'm ok with just getting LVTTL/LVCMOS digital outputs (BT.656 style or with separate syncs), I can handle making it LVDS |
| 04:58.09 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.150.235) |
| 04:58.14 | flyback | or one of those dvd players portable with video in |
| 04:58.16 | davidc__ | MonMotha: national semi / TI make some serializers / deserializers |
| 04:58.21 | flyback | MonMotha |
| 04:58.22 | MonMotha | flyback: this is for an OEM application |
| 04:58.24 | davidc__ | MonMotha: for running LCD data over LVDS |
| 04:58.25 | flyback | you might want to look at this |
| 04:58.28 | flyback | oh |
| 04:58.29 | flyback | nm |
| 04:58.32 | MonMotha | I'm not cracking apart a bunch of playstation LCDs for this |
| 04:58.39 | MonMotha | this is not a hacking project. I'm doing real work |
| 04:58.57 | flyback | there's a $20 mini dvd player on geeks I been wondering if the lcd could be useful outside of the unit |
| 04:58.59 | MonMotha | davidc__: yes, I've got some from TI picked out, as well as some alternates from national in fac |
| 04:59.00 | MonMotha | t |
| 04:59.07 | flyback | or even hack around the dvd decoder engine |
| 04:59.09 | flyback | to pump in video |
| 04:59.26 | MonMotha | davidc__: I'm half tempted to just chuck an FPGA at it |
| 04:59.36 | flyback | yeah that might be best |
| 04:59.40 | MonMotha | I don't need much, just a simple framebuffer and VGA/480p-ish resolution |
| 04:59.41 | flyback | how fast do you need one to be |
| 04:59.45 | flyback | to drive a lcd |
| 04:59.46 | MonMotha | flyback: yes, but LOTS of development time and risk |
| 04:59.54 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hmm - Analog makes some VGA decoders - might be able to find one that can talk directly to one of the serializers |
| 04:59.55 | flyback | MonMotha well what if you buy a soft core |
| 05:00.02 | davidc__ | and find a panel that can take VGA timings over its paralell bus |
| 05:00.08 | MonMotha | this is a somewhat cost sensitive application |
| 05:00.18 | flyback | well dude guess what you can't have your cacke and eat it too |
| 05:00.26 | flyback | so mabye you need to move to a easier to work with lcd |
| 05:00.46 | flyback | wtf why? |
| 05:01.02 | flyback | fine be that way |
| 05:01.13 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hmm... I know of some controller IC's that could drive an LCD at VGA ish resolution |
| 05:01.17 | MonMotha | davidc__: the issue isn't timings. If there's a driver for X or whatever, I can fudge it into the timings I need as long as the PC end can handle things. The issue is getting the raw parallel data off the chip |
| 05:01.24 | MonMotha | please do tell |
| 05:01.26 | davidc__ | MonMotha: and be strapped to one of the serializers |
| 05:01.30 | davidc__ | but none of them are PCI / etc |
| 05:01.33 | MonMotha | because I simply don't have the contacts on one of this |
| 05:01.36 | davidc__ | so you'd still need a bridge of some sort |
| 05:01.37 | MonMotha | USB would also be acceptable |
| 05:01.50 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:01.53 | MonMotha | what's their interface on the PC side? |
| 05:01.57 | flyback | they do make those usb to vga cards |
| 05:02.08 | flyback | wonder how hard it would be to mod one to be usb to lvds |
| 05:02.09 | MonMotha | one of those stupid old chips like S3 and Cirrus used to make would be perfect. They used external DACs |
| 05:02.16 | flyback | WAIT |
| 05:02.21 | flyback | YOU CAN TAP THE EXTERNAL DAC?!?!?! |
| 05:02.27 | davidc__ | MonMotha: the ones I was thinking of are all from epson - its a paralell-ish bus + could be fuged to ISA maybe |
| 05:02.28 | MonMotha | and must have cost like $10 in quantity, because you could buy the damned cards at retail for like $30 |
| 05:02.44 | MonMotha | ISA is not available, so I'd need a PCI-ISA bridge, and those are getting harder and harder to find for a decent price |
| 05:02.51 | davidc__ | MonMotha: but I dunno of any native PCI ones.. let me poke around |
| 05:02.56 | flyback | davidc__ |
| 05:03.03 | flyback | TELL THAT cock muncher to take me off ignore |
| 05:03.05 | flyback | I have an idea |
| 05:03.21 | MonMotha | basically, what I need is a PCI VGA controller that's designed to drive external DACs. Then instead of driving a DAC, I can just drive a LVDS serializer, run it over to my LCD front panel, deserialize it, and I'm done |
| 05:03.29 | davidc__ | yup, makes sense |
| 05:03.31 | MonMotha | should be doable for within the budget |
| 05:03.39 | MonMotha | I"m just at a loss finding a maker of such cheap VGA crap |
| 05:03.44 | davidc__ | MonMotha: flyback is asking me to play telephone and ask you to take him off ignore |
| 05:03.51 | MonMotha | ok... |
| 05:03.57 | davidc__ | he apparently has an idea |
| 05:04.06 | MonMotha | ok |
| 05:04.15 | s3-968 | s3 968 video cards |
| 05:04.16 | MonMotha | remember, I have to be able to buy this stuff in lowish quantity (couple thousand) |
| 05:04.19 | s3-968 | used a external dac |
| 05:04.25 | s3-968 | they were usually paired with ibm ramdacs |
| 05:04.27 | s3-968 | pci |
| 05:04.31 | MonMotha | yes, I remember them |
| 05:04.34 | MonMotha | they're also long EOL |
| 05:04.36 | s3-968 | in fact it was my first video card I bought |
| 05:04.42 | MonMotha | I have one, in fact |
| 05:04.43 | s3-968 | yes but you were looking at getting isa ones :) |
| 05:04.50 | MonMotha | no, I pretty well shot that idea down |
| 05:04.57 | s3-968 | mabye you can find online a source of many tested chips |
| 05:04.59 | s3-968 | oh :/ |
| 05:05.30 | MonMotha | I need to either be able to buy a card with the LVDS otuput already on it or I need to be able to buy bare chips (at reasonable prices, not the exorbinate tested pull prices) for a custom PCB |
| 05:05.30 | flyback | hmm I wonder if my webpal could drive a lcd |
| 05:05.36 | flyback | if I tear off the dac thing |
| 05:05.44 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:05.49 | MonMotha | IIRC, the DACs for the VGA are internal to the ARM SOC |
| 05:05.51 | flyback | would 968's work |
| 05:05.54 | MonMotha | the TV conversion is all analog |
| 05:06.04 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:06.13 | MonMotha | that said, the PS7500 may have a digital video output option |
| 05:06.15 | flyback | lemme see if c&t is still around |
| 05:06.15 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hmm - have you looked at that open graphics card project? If you do decide to go the full FPGA route, and don't mind releasing the on-card firmware, you might be able to just drop that in |
| 05:06.23 | flyback | MonMotha it does mention this in the manual |
| 05:06.40 | MonMotha | davidc__: I'd like to minimize development risk on this one |
| 05:06.50 | MonMotha | I work for this particular person as a very part time contractor |
| 05:07.01 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yeah, I understand ya - but I figure its easier to drop that in, than write one from scratch ;) |
| 05:07.24 | MonMotha | the two categories I've picked from the triangle are cost and development time/minimization of risk. I don't care about performance :) |
| 05:07.34 | flyback | C&T 69030 |
| 05:07.34 | davidc__ | MonMotha: how bout this: http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/datasheets/SAA7146A_2.pdf |
| 05:07.40 | davidc__ | MonMotha: digikey has it |
| 05:07.47 | davidc__ | MonMotha: took a really really quick look at it |
| 05:07.54 | flyback | MonMotha what about a video video chip thing |
| 05:07.55 | flyback | somehow |
| 05:07.55 | davidc__ | MonMotha: let me look some more and see if its sane at all ;) |
| 05:07.59 | flyback | via video |
| 05:07.59 | flyback | I mean |
| 05:08.06 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:08.13 | MonMotha | davidc__: hum, tha tlooks promising |
| 05:08.19 | MonMotha | I didn't realize that NXP had gotten into that stuff |
| 05:08.24 | flyback | about time :) |
| 05:08.41 | flyback | whoa |
| 05:08.42 | flyback | neat |
| 05:08.46 | MonMotha | I'd also like something that Linux has some form of support for |
| 05:08.49 | davidc__ | MonMotha: not sure if its what you need, but it looks like it has some video output caps |
| 05:08.56 | MonMotha | doesn't need to be accelerated, but I do want to run X on it |
| 05:09.00 | flyback | C&T 69030 |
| 05:09.07 | MonMotha | I can write drivers if I have to, but already supported would be great |
| 05:09.22 | MonMotha | what I'm half tempted to do is see if I can get any of that Intel graphics stuff and just make my own PCI card |
| 05:09.27 | MonMotha | but I don't think those are available in small qty |
| 05:09.44 | flyback | how small of a quanity |
| 05:10.03 | davidc__ | MonMotha: looks like there might be some support |
| 05:10.31 | MonMotha | flyback: as I've mentioned several times, a few thousand |
| 05:10.45 | MonMotha | and I need to be able to get samples (either free or paid) for prototyping |
| 05:10.50 | flyback | oo |
| 05:10.57 | flyback | C&T 69030 has 4 meg built in |
| 05:11.05 | flyback | lemme see if I can find small quanities online |
| 05:11.24 | davidc__ | MonMotha: its got support under V4L, as far as I can see |
| 05:11.44 | flyback | damn even the embedded space eol'd that chip |
| 05:11.45 | flyback | :/ |
| 05:11.56 | MonMotha | davidc__: yeah, most of what I'm seeing are supports for grabbing, which looks like the primary function of that chip |
| 05:12.15 | flyback | MonMotha since you are using a pc anyways what's the deal with using a embedded board with lvds |
| 05:13.06 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hrm, well - thats all I can find. Its $24 QTY 1000 @ digikey prices, and I assume you already know how to do better ;) |
| 05:13.07 | MonMotha | flyback: there is a LCD module integrated into the case of this PC. All of the modules which are cheap enough for this application and otherwise suitable accept parallel digital data only |
| 05:13.32 | MonMotha | none of them take analog or DVI directly |
| 05:13.51 | flyback | oh they aren't lvds? |
| 05:13.53 | MonMotha | I have considered using a standard video card and either digitizing output of one or using DVI |
| 05:14.12 | flyback | how many colors do you need then? |
| 05:14.20 | MonMotha | no, they are not LVDS, but I'm not about to chuck LVTTL/LVCMOS around on a 1.5ft ribbon at several MHz in a PC these days |
| 05:14.28 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:14.35 | flyback | uhh |
| 05:14.37 | MonMotha | there is an absolute requirement for TFT. No STN |
| 05:14.42 | flyback | you would have to anyways |
| 05:14.45 | flyback | large cable |
| 05:14.58 | MonMotha | I can put LVDS on the cable and then you dno't have nearly the signal integrity issues |
| 05:15.18 | flyback | what if you did the video card hack + lvds translators on either end |
| 05:15.24 | MonMotha | also means I need a smaller cable, since they clock the 24/32bit bus out onto a much smaller number of LVDS lines |
| 05:15.39 | MonMotha | if I'm doing a video card hack, I'll just move either the DVI or analog RGB around as is |
| 05:15.47 | flyback | assuming you could source a video card for the quanity you need |
| 05:15.51 | MonMotha | DVI is designed for this, and analog RGB is already goingt o have problems |
| 05:15.51 | flyback | ad confirmed to work |
| 05:16.03 | MonMotha | well, at that point I can pretty much use any ol' nvidia/ati card that's cheap |
| 05:16.18 | flyback | I dunno what's best |
| 05:16.20 | MonMotha | heck, find one that has the analog on an internal header and then you don't have any unsightly cables going out the back |
| 05:16.33 | MonMotha | however, all that digitizing/DVI endpoint hardware adds up |
| 05:16.37 | davidc__ | MonMotha: anyhow, I think that chip could be made to work, might need an FPGA framebuffer to handle timing issues, but since the FPGA doesn't need to talk PCI, it could be pretty small |
| 05:16.55 | MonMotha | davidc__: if I'm going to go FPGA, I'm thinking I will probably just go all out |
| 05:17.03 | MonMotha | makes the BOM smaller and the FPGAs are cheap |
| 05:17.06 | flyback | yeah make your own video card etc |
| 05:17.18 | MonMotha | heck, the DRAM for the framebuffer costs almost as much as those small FPGAs (for just a framebuffer, it doesn't take much of an FPGA) |
| 05:17.19 | davidc__ | MonMotha: heh - how big d'you think you'd need to go on the FPGA? |
| 05:17.31 | MonMotha | I've crammed entire CPUs on to the 20k gate ones |
| 05:17.47 | MonMotha | a simple PCI interface and framebuffer shouldn't take up much more |
| 05:17.58 | davidc__ | MonMotha: skip the DRAM - make it bus mastering + give it a block of RAM |
| 05:18.05 | flyback | what about a premade pci fpga card |
| 05:18.06 | MonMotha | that's true, I could do that |
| 05:18.08 | davidc__ | and just have it do requests to fill up internal fifos when needed |
| 05:18.15 | flyback | with lots of breakout pins |
| 05:18.29 | davidc__ | MonMotha: the S3E's these days have gobs of blockram.. easily enough for a few lines |
| 05:18.37 | MonMotha | flyback: once you hit more than about 250 boards, custom boards are no longer overly expensive in terms of the raw PCB |
| 05:18.39 | davidc__ | MonMotha: but you probably already knew that :P |
| 05:18.45 | MonMotha | davidc__: oh, I did :) |
| 05:18.45 | flyback | ah |
| 05:18.56 | MonMotha | davidc__: I can also do LVDS direclty off a S3A, not sure about a S3E |
| 05:19.28 | davidc__ | MonMotha: IIRC the S3E's also support LVDS |
| 05:19.29 | flyback | I wouldn't want to try :) |
| 05:19.29 | MonMotha | awesome |
| 05:19.29 | MonMotha | and they should be fast enough to do the serialization |
| 05:19.29 | flyback | i'll stick to hacking existing parts together |
| 05:19.29 | flyback | :P |
| 05:19.31 | MonMotha | flyback: well, I do this stuff for a living. It's called engineering :) |
| 05:19.36 | flyback | I know that :) |
| 05:19.43 | MonMotha | what you're doing is the realm of the hobbyist |
| 05:19.47 | MonMotha | which I also do, but for fun |
| 05:19.48 | davidc__ | MonMotha: S3E's also are a bit cheaper in my experience, but I've only been getting onsies / twosies - so I'll defer to your experience on the pricing ;) |
| 05:19.49 | MonMotha | not profit :) |
| 05:19.54 | flyback | actually |
| 05:20.04 | flyback | I seen plenty of industral and commercial stuff |
| 05:20.09 | flyback | that was just a hack of off the shefl parts |
| 05:20.12 | MonMotha | davidc__: I think that in this case the S3E would be cheaper to attain the needed IO and density, assuming it does LVDS |
| 05:20.21 | MonMotha | and I agree with your assessment |
| 05:20.27 | flyback | actually |
| 05:20.27 | MonMotha | flyback: COTS systems are also important |
| 05:20.32 | MonMotha | it's just not what I do |
| 05:20.38 | flyback | MonMotha actually give me a few mins |
| 05:20.43 | MonMotha | you notice I am considering a partially COTS system here |
| 05:20.46 | flyback | these guys came up with a vga to lvda card for $100 |
| 05:20.51 | MonMotha | too expensive |
| 05:20.58 | flyback | I know that's not what you need but might be able to give you idea |
| 05:21.00 | flyback | how to make your own |
| 05:21.04 | flyback | I don't think it was commercial |
| 05:21.10 | MonMotha | I've found several of those, but they are all designed for quick one-off type things and are, as such, priced expensive |
| 05:21.18 | davidc__ | MonMotha: btw - have you played with the S3A DSP version ones? |
| 05:21.22 | MonMotha | davidc__: I have not |
| 05:21.31 | MonMotha | I'm not much of an FPGA guy really, which is why an FPGA solution carries some risk |
| 05:21.38 | flyback | $72 WOW THEY have come down |
| 05:21.43 | flyback | commercial solution |
| 05:21.45 | MonMotha | I've been meaning to get into it, but haven't had an opportunity |
| 05:21.49 | MonMotha | flyback: still too expensive |
| 05:21.53 | flyback | I know for you |
| 05:21.56 | flyback | I was just saying in general wow |
| 05:21.57 | MonMotha | though is that qty. 1 pricing or 1k? |
| 05:22.03 | flyback | 1 |
| 05:22.07 | flyback | they might be able to go lower |
| 05:22.09 | flyback | hang on |
| 05:22.09 | MonMotha | that should come down some, then |
| 05:22.16 | flyback | http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/review-palace/69938-kontron-lcd-vga-lvds-controller.html |
| 05:22.19 | MonMotha | qty discounts are amazing |
| 05:22.30 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I'm probably going to be getting some to play with for a startup me + a friend are doing |
| 05:22.39 | davidc__ | MonMotha: want me to give you a heads up on performance once I have em? |
| 05:22.48 | MonMotha | flyback: shoot, that just takes VGA in |
| 05:22.55 | flyback | good or bad? |
| 05:22.56 | MonMotha | if I'm doing that, I'll just digitize it at the LCD end directly to LVTTL |
| 05:22.57 | flyback | :P |
| 05:23.06 | flyback | oh yeah true |
| 05:23.10 | MonMotha | davidc__: sure |
| 05:23.20 | MonMotha | most of my FPGA experience has been academic |
| 05:23.31 | MonMotha | I've chucked a CPU on one before, and done some SoC type stuff with a Virtex II Pro |
| 05:23.36 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I've been slowly teaching myself them |
| 05:23.37 | MonMotha | I have a XUPV2P dev board |
| 05:23.48 | MonMotha | and I'm very, very happy that the Webpack ISE now supports to XC2VP30 |
| 05:23.48 | davidc__ | MonMotha: done some LCD frame generation / etc |
| 05:23.57 | MonMotha | yeah, I've also done video generation |
| 05:24.14 | MonMotha | most dev boards have smoe form of video output capabilities, but you provide your own frame generation and such |
| 05:24.21 | flyback | MonMotha so you are saying |
| 05:24.24 | davidc__ | yup. |
| 05:24.26 | flyback | that video cards with seperate dacs |
| 05:24.36 | flyback | you can intercept the data to drive non lvds lcd's |
| 05:24.48 | MonMotha | digitizing the output of a standard VGA card is certainly an option |
| 05:24.54 | MonMotha | a sub-par one in terms of quality, but the price is right |
| 05:25.02 | davidc__ | once you wrap your head around the verilog and find all the weird quirks of the xilinx toolchain, I've found they're a lot easier than I used to think they were |
| 05:25.05 | flyback | you did say you just needed low res :P |
| 05:25.17 | MonMotha | flyback: correct. Most LCDs take their input in the same form that you'd scan into a video DAC |
| 05:25.23 | flyback | wow |
| 05:25.30 | MonMotha | yes, but I idealy want perfect edges on the pixels |
| 05:25.31 | flyback | cause I have a bunch of older cards like that |
| 05:25.41 | flyback | MonMotha mabye you could tweak the sw to compensate |
| 05:25.43 | MonMotha | the PLLs video DACs are good enough that it should work |
| 05:25.51 | MonMotha | it's not a software issue |
| 05:25.58 | flyback | I know it's NOT a software issue |
| 05:26.02 | MonMotha | it's all about timing jitter on both ends and getting the sample instant right |
| 05:26.19 | flyback | I was saying mess with the x timing output mabye to make up for vga -> lvds skew etc |
| 05:28.05 | flyback | I read so many stories over the yrs of problems solved by going at the other end of the problem |
| 05:28.13 | flyback | not saying it would work in this case just tossin gout ideas |
| 05:29.14 | davidc__ | flyback: the jitter is determined by the quality of the components on both ends.. a good clock recovery scheme on the receiving end will help with drift, but if the jitter is big on the sending end, nothing will help |
| 05:29.26 | flyback | ok :) |
| 05:31.13 | MonMotha | davidc__: I do digital comm stuff, too :) |
| 05:31.19 | MonMotha | I'm an amateur radio operator, actually |
| 05:32.01 | davidc__ | MonMotha: cool... now shove the LCD data over radio ;) |
| 05:32.13 | davidc__ | MonMotha: there are some free bands in the 11 / 60ghz range, no? |
| 05:32.42 | MonMotha | there are free bands all over the place |
| 05:32.57 | MonMotha | I actually have a giant poster of the US radio spectrum allocations |
| 05:33.02 | MonMotha | yes, I'm a nerd |
| 05:33.11 | davidc__ | MonMotha: haha, I've seen the exact same poster |
| 05:33.34 | flyback | understand MonMotha I was not telling you to hack shit together for your customer |
| 05:33.44 | flyback | more like look at some of the hacks to see if it inspires a elegant way to do this |
| 05:33.58 | flyback | I work for a computer consulting place that deals with corps |
| 05:34.00 | flyback | I know how it is :/ |
| 05:35.08 | davidc__ | MonMotha: completely random thought that probably won't work, but if you're not stuck with a certain mobo choice, some mini/nano atx/itx mobos have LVDS outputs onboard |
| 05:35.24 | davidc__ | but that probably won't work with your app :) |
| 05:35.29 | flyback | I said that already |
| 05:35.31 | flyback | :P |
| 05:35.44 | flyback | they actually make some now with intel cpu's on them |
| 05:35.45 | flyback | and amd |
| 05:35.51 | MonMotha | davidc__: I'd thought of that, but mobo isn't really something I can pick, and it's guaranteed to be a full PC mobo |
| 05:36.02 | davidc__ | MonMotha: gotcha |
| 05:36.17 | flyback | man I was helping this kid in .ar |
| 05:36.23 | flyback | taught him about embedded boards |
| 05:36.27 | flyback | his lights lit up :) |
| 05:36.30 | flyback | it felt good |
| 05:36.32 | davidc__ | MonMotha: what kind of framerate do you need @ what res? |
| 05:36.51 | flyback | his customer was using a normal pc mb for a small db |
| 05:36.56 | davidc__ | I was just curious if PCI is a must.. because I've heard doing PCI in fpgas can be a bit of a pain, regarding meeting the timing requirements |
| 05:36.58 | flyback | and it was major overkill and a pain in the ass |
| 05:37.08 | flyback | MonMotha |
| 05:37.13 | flyback | what about what I said earlier |
| 05:37.21 | flyback | a usb to vga adaptor and tap the digital out if it has it |
| 05:37.32 | flyback | just get the chip |
| 05:38.42 | flyback | hang on I will look for you |
| 05:38.54 | MonMotha | davidc__: PCI is not a must |
| 05:39.10 | MonMotha | but it's one of the few busses available with sufficient bandwidth to update the LCD in reasonable time. Hi-Speed USB would laso work |
| 05:39.41 | MonMotha | davidc__: and 60Hz and 480p at most, possibly lower res (which presents some problems with getting PC stuff that can go lower) |
| 05:39.52 | flyback | HAHAHAHAHA |
| 05:39.53 | davidc__ | MonMotha: 60hz? you've found panels that go that fast? |
| 05:39.57 | flyback | this one is powered by a 8051 :) |
| 05:40.07 | flyback | 8051 just flat out refuses to die |
| 05:40.09 | flyback | :) |
| 05:40.54 | flyback | http://sewelldirect.com/USB-to-DVI-Adapter.asp |
| 05:41.01 | MonMotha | davidc__: most TFTs do |
| 05:41.03 | flyback | wonder if you can get the chips cheap for something like that |
| 05:41.20 | MonMotha | the STNs do not, certainly |
| 05:41.24 | ohsix | MonMotha: you can get cards with vesa feature headers that you can use to the same end |
| 05:41.31 | flyback | ohsix |
| 05:41.34 | flyback | I already told him |
| 05:41.35 | MonMotha | the VESA feature connector still exists? |
| 05:41.39 | flyback | he doesn't want ttl over a long cable |
| 05:41.41 | MonMotha | I've not seen one of those in AGES |
| 05:41.46 | flyback | up to some current agp ones yes |
| 05:41.52 | flyback | that's what I was telling you about |
| 05:42.07 | flyback | a few rare cards had VAFC |
| 05:42.08 | MonMotha | I need to be able to actually buy the thing, and need to be able to do so for at least a couple years |
| 05:42.09 | flyback | which is 32 bits |
| 05:42.26 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:42.29 | ohsix | you can always get one that still has one + still be cheap about it |
| 05:42.32 | flyback | mabye usb to vga is better than |
| 05:42.45 | jbevren | woah |
| 05:42.47 | flyback | they have a usb to dvi chip |
| 05:42.48 | jbevren | quake3 for irix |
| 05:42.51 | flyback | hahaha |
| 05:42.53 | flyback | PHEAR! |
| 05:42.59 | jbevren | imagine that on an infinitereality system |
| 05:43.03 | flyback | jbevren does that mean when they own you |
| 05:43.03 | ohsix | they sil has a chip thats a usb framebuffer too |
| 05:43.08 | flyback | they own your filesystem and kernel too? |
| 05:43.16 | jbevren | flyback lol |
| 05:43.29 | flyback | I heard many yrs back irix had a lot of holes :P |
| 05:43.29 | jbevren | in spite of being closed-source, irix is quite securable |
| 05:43.49 | flyback | so guys |
| 05:43.50 | jbevren | it has (and does still), but thats normally just stupid stuff like no-password lp user etc |
| 05:43.56 | flyback | I might have found the killer juicebox app |
| 05:44.00 | jbevren | do tell |
| 05:44.13 | flyback | depends on if the lcd is clear and the circuitry can be removed from the back |
| 05:44.17 | flyback | or we can boost the backlight |
| 05:44.24 | flyback | my friend was telling me about this hack he did |
| 05:44.27 | flyback | took a lcd like a laptop |
| 05:44.37 | flyback | stuck it to the bottom of a cheap fiber optic xmas tree |
| 05:44.57 | flyback | and got all kinds of neat effects shooting graphics at it |
| 05:45.03 | MonMotha | ohsix: yeah, but good luck buying a thousand of something from silicon image |
| 05:45.12 | MonMotha | if they even bother to talk to you, they'll just laugh |
| 05:45.22 | flyback | fuck em them |
| 05:45.27 | jbevren | man I need to fix this rom drive's latch |
| 05:45.31 | flyback | I am sure there is a chink knockoff that will do the same |
| 05:45.36 | ohsix | you could always buy widgets with them in them from china |
| 05:45.41 | jbevren | I"m getting tired of pressing eject and then quickly prying at it with a screwdriver :D |
| 05:45.45 | flyback | as long as you test the shit out of it first |
| 05:45.47 | flyback | it should be ok |
| 05:45.52 | MonMotha | ohsix: this needs to be a somewhat "clean" solution |
| 05:46.01 | flyback | oh I do mean legal chips |
| 05:46.12 | flyback | I know how the ip lawyer fags are now |
| 05:46.15 | jbevren | flyback: try a color camcorder viewfinder display ;) |
| 05:46.22 | MonMotha | I mean clean in the sense of not having tons of crap hanging around |
| 05:46.22 | flyback | fucking holding a company hostage of the freaking color of a case |
| 05:46.23 | jbevren | smaller area means more control over the fibres |
| 05:46.23 | flyback | wtf |
| 05:46.30 | MonMotha | minimal cabling, etc |
| 05:46.32 | ohsix | globalsources is pretty respectable ;] |
| 05:46.53 | flyback | I feel like charles heston in planet of the apes II when I see this shit |
| 05:47.00 | flyback | I just want to go "fuck you all" and nuke all sides |
| 05:47.08 | ohsix | if the motherboard has an interanl usb header like most do you could be pretty clean |
| 05:47.12 | flyback | yeah |
| 05:47.24 | flyback | MonMotha they even make a lot of nice industral usb header adaptor things |
| 05:47.36 | MonMotha | yes, but if I'm having to hack the device apart to get at signals, solder on tiny pieces of wire, etc. that's ugly |
| 05:47.38 | MonMotha | I need bare chips |
| 05:47.40 | flyback | so it could be small compact and mabye have extra shielding etc whatever you need |
| 05:47.46 | flyback | that's what I am trying to find you |
| 05:47.50 | MonMotha | and believe me, I know about internal USB headers. We're currently using them |
| 05:48.02 | flyback | I only showed you those products to show you the chips exist |
| 05:48.08 | MonMotha | I know they do |
| 05:48.08 | flyback | now I am working on finding you a source :) |
| 05:48.13 | MonMotha | the issue is buying them in tiny quantity |
| 05:48.21 | MonMotha | reliably |
| 05:48.27 | flyback | VGA2625 |
| 05:48.35 | MonMotha | we already had crap go down on our last design where a chip got EOLed at the last second |
| 05:48.37 | MonMotha | I want to avoid that |
| 05:48.54 | flyback | check this one |
| 05:48.58 | flyback | it just came out this yr |
| 05:49.41 | flyback | you guys would know better where to get quanities you need etc |
| 05:49.46 | flyback | shoot off a search on that chip |
| 05:50.05 | MonMotha | if it's a single ASIC, chances are the DVI transmitter is integrated |
| 05:50.23 | flyback | yeah but weren't you just going to slap a lvds to dvi thing on the end anyways/ |
| 05:50.24 | MonMotha | DVI receivers are kinda pricy compared to LVDS |
| 05:50.29 | MonMotha | I'm not entirely sure why, but they are |
| 05:50.32 | jbevren | so I'm lost, what are you trying to do Mon? |
| 05:50.40 | flyback | MonMotha probably faggywood |
| 05:50.42 | MonMotha | apparently a clusterfuck |
| 05:50.54 | flyback | I am so glad the writers strike is going on |
| 05:50.56 | MonMotha | jbevren: Trying to put a small TFT on the front of a PC |
| 05:51.01 | MonMotha | which is apparently REALLY FUCKING HARD |
| 05:51.11 | MonMotha | you wouldn't think it, but it is |
| 05:51.17 | jbevren | MonMotha: sexy |
| 05:51.21 | flyback | no what is hard is choosing a bad lcd to start with :) |
| 05:51.29 | MonMotha | flyback: there are price concerns |
| 05:51.32 | jbevren | MonMotha: so composite displays arent an option? |
| 05:51.40 | jbevren | i.e. PSOne lcd? |
| 05:51.42 | MonMotha | jbevren: quality isn't good enough, and they're always too fucking expensive |
| 05:51.42 | flyback | MonMotha I understand that very much but |
| 05:51.43 | flyback | hahahaa |
| 05:51.48 | jbevren | MonMotha: hrm |
| 05:51.49 | flyback | jbevren he shot me down on that one too |
| 05:51.54 | flyback | at leasst I know I am sane for once |
| 05:51.55 | MonMotha | and I'm not hacking stuff apart to do this |
| 05:51.58 | jbevren | what resolution are you after? |
| 05:52.00 | MonMotha | if I wanted one, yeah, I'd do that |
| 05:52.02 | flyback | MonMotha actually |
| 05:52.11 | MonMotha | jbevren: not critical. Enough to draw some buttons for a user to touch |
| 05:52.17 | flyback | mabye you can find a source of the lcd used in most of those game console lcd's |
| 05:52.28 | jbevren | MonMotha: QVGA? |
| 05:52.31 | jbevren | fullvga? |
| 05:52.38 | flyback | jbevren I like your thinking |
| 05:52.47 | MonMotha | flyback: which generally take parallel digital data, just like the ones I'm looking at |
| 05:52.50 | jbevren | lotsa cheap(isH) qvga's around |
| 05:52.51 | MonMotha | jbevren: either is fine |
| 05:53.05 | MonMotha | the pricing on the LCD isn't the problem when they only accept parallel digital data |
| 05:53.10 | flyback | MonMotha no they can take vga analog data |
| 05:53.11 | MonMotha | the issue is the glue |
| 05:53.14 | jbevren | yeah |
| 05:53.18 | MonMotha | flyback: show me one in my price range |
| 05:53.21 | jbevren | lvds is easiest to catch |
| 05:53.21 | MonMotha | <$100 |
| 05:53.25 | flyback | so you could use a shielded cable |
| 05:53.25 | jbevren | look for a cirrus logic card |
| 05:53.28 | flyback | uhh |
| 05:53.34 | flyback | the game console lcd's themselves are like $50 |
| 05:53.41 | flyback | I mean the whole product |
| 05:53.42 | MonMotha | flyback: yes, and then you need a shit ton of glue |
| 05:53.46 | jbevren | most of my cirrus logic-equipped sbc's have lvds output |
| 05:53.53 | flyback | lemme check |
| 05:53.58 | MonMotha | jbevren: cirrus apparently no longer makes those type of devices |
| 05:54.05 | MonMotha | though supposedly they spun it off, I'm not sure to whom |
| 05:54.08 | jbevren | yeah, you'll have to go second-hand |
| 05:54.12 | MonMotha | can't do that |
| 05:54.12 | flyback | MonMotha these would take just vga input |
| 05:54.19 | flyback | so you could run a cable from a pc video card right to it |
| 05:54.25 | MonMotha | flyback: product link and I'll shut the fuck up for you |
| 05:54.25 | jbevren | meh |
| 05:54.26 | jbevren | hrm |
| 05:54.35 | MonMotha | stop speculating and give me a god damned link |
| 05:54.36 | flyback | I ain't looking to be right here |
| 05:54.38 | flyback | I am trying to help |
| 05:54.39 | flyback | and I am |
| 05:54.42 | flyback | hold horses |
| 05:55.00 | jbevren | it uses a CL vga card, plus has (what was) an uber 3D engine stamped on the backside of it |
| 05:55.00 | MonMotha | until you show me something that I can buy reliably, in the necessary quantity, and in my pricerange, you're just speculating |
| 05:55.05 | flyback | hmm |
| 05:55.07 | flyback | http://www.bit-tech.net/modding/2004/07/07/psone_lcd/2 |
| 05:55.11 | flyback | I guess that does have a lot of glue |
| 05:55.21 | flyback | actually you just gave me an idea |
| 05:55.25 | flyback | give me a few mins |
| 05:55.31 | MonMotha | and not in a form that I have to hack up a bunch of plastic from a consumer product to get at |
| 05:55.40 | flyback | uh I knew that |
| 05:55.43 | MonMotha | I realize that you're used to doing hobbyist hacking, but that is NOT what I'm doing here |
| 05:55.51 | flyback | I referenced the console ONLY AS A SOURCE OF THE MODULE LCD THEY USED |
| 05:56.07 | jbevren | MonMotha: ah |
| 05:56.16 | jbevren | youre not in my arena then ;) |
| 05:56.22 | jbevren | looking for something to market? |
| 05:56.26 | MonMotha | I don't want composite |
| 05:56.34 | MonMotha | then I need a video card with TV out, and it inevitibly looks like shit |
| 05:56.41 | flyback | http://store.earthlcd.com/SK-3022-SK3022?sc=7&category=16 |
| 05:56.43 | jbevren | yeah |
| 05:56.43 | flyback | oh |
| 05:56.54 | jbevren | unless you go with a matrox, which arent much use otherwise ;) |
| 05:57.08 | MonMotha | well, I'm not trying to blow people's minds with 3d graphics here |
| 05:57.15 | MonMotha | hell, an unaccelerated framebuffer would be sufficient |
| 05:57.31 | flyback | yeah I was surprised how well my palm does |
| 05:57.32 | flyback | considering |
| 05:57.53 | MonMotha | I'm looking for something in the 4-6" range, QVGA to VGA |
| 05:58.14 | MonMotha | entire thing including LCD, any glue to put video on it, touchscreen, and a USB touchscreen interface has to come in under $100 |
| 05:58.22 | MonMotha | and I need to be able to reliably buy them |
| 05:58.49 | flyback | FOUND IT |
| 05:58.50 | flyback | http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/03/using_a_laptop_lcd_with_a_vga.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890 |
| 05:58.52 | flyback | MonMotha |
| 05:59.00 | flyback | see if you could shrink this down to what you want |
| 05:59.29 | MonMotha | yeah, that tells me NOTHING about HOW they did it |
| 05:59.38 | MonMotha | I"m guessing they're digitizing the analog video |
| 05:59.45 | MonMotha | which is the solution I came up with about 15 minutes ago |
| 05:59.46 | flyback | I am looking for the link how they did it |
| 05:59.47 | flyback | hang on :) |
| 06:00.03 | MonMotha | given that I see analog devices on a chip, that's almost assuredly what they're doing |
| 06:00.10 | davidc__ | yup, I see an AD logo on there |
| 06:00.11 | jbevren | MonMotha: caught your notes about dvi. meh |
| 06:00.13 | MonMotha | possibly with a micro or something to manage poweron sequence |
| 06:00.33 | MonMotha | jbevren: I'm not too concerned with digitizing the VGA. DVI would be nicer just to keep the whole path digital |
| 06:00.41 | flyback | can you read french |
| 06:00.41 | flyback | http://forum.macbidouille.com/index.php?showtopic=102465&hl=interface |
| 06:00.46 | MonMotha | but DVI receives can get a little expensive and inevitibly are under NDA |
| 06:00.50 | MonMotha | flyback: in a word, no |
| 06:01.03 | MonMotha | LVDS receivers are CHEAP |
| 06:01.06 | flyback | well at leasy mabye you can read the parts list |
| 06:01.07 | flyback | :P |
| 06:01.45 | MonMotha | flyback: I have parts picked out already to do a "digitize the analog RGB output" option |
| 06:01.45 | flyback | would a lvds receiver let me take the raw signal from a gpu into a ramdac and drive a laptop lvds monitor? |
| 06:01.58 | MonMotha | no, for that you'd want a LVDS transmitter |
| 06:01.58 | davidc__ | MonMotha: the 3a's will talk TMDS IIRC |
| 06:02.08 | flyback | MonMotha are those expensive ? |
| 06:02.20 | MonMotha | davidc__: hum, but at that point I no longer need any actual FPGA functionality, just need to get it back to parallel LVTTL |
| 06:02.28 | MonMotha | flyback: if you call $5 expensive, then yes |
| 06:02.32 | flyback | oh hell no :) |
| 06:02.42 | flyback | wonder how hard they are to work with |
| 06:02.42 | MonMotha | mind you, that just takes care of the electrical side |
| 06:02.47 | flyback | do you have to code anything etc? |
| 06:03.00 | MonMotha | well, you'll have to get the card to output video with the EXACT timings your LCD wants |
| 06:03.12 | MonMotha | but otherwise the challenge is mostly hardware |
| 06:03.19 | flyback | yeah but that's probably doable in X or framebuffer |
| 06:03.22 | MonMotha | oh, and getting documentation |
| 06:03.50 | flyback | wonder if this would work for the straight out digital RGB hack |
| 06:03.55 | flyback | go right off the pins to the ramdac |
| 06:04.02 | flyback | instead of vesa feature |
| 06:04.27 | flyback | for pre lvds tft lcd's |
| 06:04.35 | flyback | hmm |
| 06:05.26 | MonMotha | that would be fine, and it's exactly what I want for this appliaction except that I can't buy chips like that anymore |
| 06:05.34 | MonMotha | the "good" stuff got so cheap that nobody bothers with things like that |
| 06:05.38 | davidc__ | MonMotha: you know.. using a little 3A, you could avoid the need to have the exact right timing.. as long as its close + have a few line ram buffer |
| 06:05.45 | davidc__ | and the internal brams might be enough |
| 06:05.47 | MonMotha | davidc__: that is true |
| 06:05.53 | davidc__ | that way, it'll talk to any bog-standard DVI |
| 06:06.07 | flyback | MonMotha |
| 06:06.11 | flyback | do they have to be new? |
| 06:06.29 | MonMotha | flyback: they have to be able to be purchased from reputable distributions in my required quantity and into the foreseeable future |
| 06:06.31 | davidc__ | flyback: you cant make 1000 units using pulls |
| 06:06.41 | davidc__ | flyback: not to mention that you have to be able to source more ;) |
| 06:06.41 | flyback | not pulled from cards |
| 06:06.44 | MonMotha | *distributors |
| 06:06.45 | flyback | those companies online |
| 06:06.48 | flyback | that do the chip salvaging |
| 06:06.49 | MonMotha | those are pulls |
| 06:06.50 | flyback | and sell chips |
| 06:06.55 | flyback | for projects |
| 06:06.56 | MonMotha | and they're usually freaking expensive and of unknown quality |
| 06:06.58 | flyback | or needed |
| 06:07.00 | flyback | oh ok |
| 06:07.03 | flyback | nm then |
| 06:07.13 | MonMotha | believe me, we had to do that for a chip that got EOL'd at the last second on another project |
| 06:07.20 | MonMotha | tripled the cost of the chip compared to digi-key! |
| 06:07.23 | flyback | ouch |
| 06:07.32 | flyback | but thx for the info |
| 06:07.40 | flyback | I will take advantahe of this at home :) |
| 06:07.52 | flyback | jbevren |
| 06:08.02 | flyback | what did you think about the xmas fiber tree hack? |
| 06:08.11 | flyback | the juicebox display would be good if we can project thru it |
| 06:08.17 | flyback | not much bigger than the fiber base |
| 06:08.21 | flyback | and the program would be simple |
| 06:09.04 | davidc__ | MonMotha: heh.. now that I've been thinking about this for an hour, I have the urge to build a DVI - > LVDS LCD adapter board :P |
| 06:09.40 | flyback | davidc__ I think there was an issue with that too |
| 06:09.43 | flyback | he said earlier |
| 06:10.26 | MonMotha | davidc__: it's not that hard, actually |
| 06:10.32 | MonMotha | just breaks our budget |
| 06:10.53 | MonMotha | ADI has some nice DVI/HDMI receivers, and TI and National have good LVDS Serializers |
| 06:11.04 | MonMotha | you probably wouldn't even need any glue between them |
| 06:11.08 | MonMotha | just a small micro to control them |
| 06:11.23 | flyback | what about a pld for that |
| 06:11.27 | flyback | or too hard to do yourself |
| 06:11.28 | MonMotha | a PLD would be too small |
| 06:11.34 | flyback | ok the next step up |
| 06:11.37 | flyback | without being a full fpga |
| 06:11.42 | davidc__ | MonMotha: eh - I was just thinking the smallest 3A sitting right at the LCD |
| 06:11.45 | MonMotha | those chips usually have several dozens of registers that need to be initialized over I2C |
| 06:11.51 | davidc__ | MonMotha: no need for any LVDS / receivers / etc |
| 06:11.53 | flyback | unless they have small fpga's now cheap |
| 06:11.54 | MonMotha | flyback: suitable micros are so cheap that there's no reason to use anything else |
| 06:11.58 | flyback | oh true |
| 06:12.02 | davidc__ | MonMotha: the 3A could talk directly to the DVI + the LCD |
| 06:12.06 | MonMotha | davidc__: yeah, that is an option |
| 06:12.08 | flyback | could a mcu keep up with a lcd though? |
| 06:12.13 | flyback | isn't it a lot of fast switching around |
| 06:12.14 | MonMotha | use it as a fancy DVI receiver |
| 06:12.28 | MonMotha | flyback: the micro is only used to set up the other stuff |
| 06:12.33 | MonMotha | it plays no part in actually moving data around |
| 06:12.37 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yup - and maybe a few line elastic buffer so the timing doesn't need to be spot on |
| 06:12.40 | davidc__ | just average out right |
| 06:12.41 | MonMotha | most of those chips use I2C and such |
| 06:12.42 | flyback | here we go again |
| 06:12.49 | MonMotha | davidc__: perhaps |
| 06:12.49 | flyback | these waves of confusion "what was I saying" shit |
| 06:12.56 | flyback | I swear I have a brain tumor |
| 06:12.56 | flyback | :/ |
| 06:13.10 | davidc__ | MonMotha: heh... maybe I'll code one up, see if its possible in the smallest 3A ;) |
| 06:13.10 | MonMotha | davidc__: basically just have to get the veritcal res and timing right, which is a lot easier |
| 06:13.18 | MonMotha | you'd probably have more luck than I |
| 06:13.26 | flyback | MonMotha if I stumble over any time |
| 06:13.29 | flyback | I will be sure to pass it along |
| 06:13.33 | davidc__ | well, I'll let you know how it goes if I get around to it ;) |
| 06:13.58 | MonMotha | yeah, I'm sure your "todo" list is as long as mine |
| 06:14.06 | MonMotha | that is to say extremely and always growing :) |
| 06:14.09 | davidc__ | MonMotha: haha, yeah :P |
| 06:14.30 | MonMotha | flyback: ok, seriously....TMI |
| 06:14.37 | flyback | sorry just thinking outloud |
| 06:14.44 | MonMotha | davidc__: I need to code up a working USB stack for Atmel's AT90USB |
| 06:14.51 | davidc__ | MonMotha: hah, that'll be fun |
| 06:14.52 | MonMotha | the one Atmel provides has some...issues |
| 06:15.02 | davidc__ | MonMotha: I've written a USB stack before.. its such a delightful standard |
| 06:15.06 | MonMotha | oh yes |
| 06:15.13 | MonMotha | software designed by Intel and hardware designed by Microsoft :) |
| 06:15.19 | flyback | hahaha |
| 06:15.20 | davidc__ | hahaha |
| 06:15.23 | MonMotha | IEEE1394 got it right |
| 06:15.32 | flyback | yeah but thx to appHOLE |
| 06:15.33 | davidc__ | MonMotha: [mine was master side, I assume you're doing slave?] |
| 06:15.36 | MonMotha | a pity it didn't catch on fast enough and we have this abomination known as USB2.0 |
| 06:15.36 | flyback | getting too gready |
| 06:15.39 | flyback | they killed the market |
| 06:15.43 | MonMotha | davidc__: yeah, I'm doing device only |
| 06:15.50 | MonMotha | the chips do support OTG, but I'm not utilizing that functionality |
| 06:16.03 | MonMotha | flyback: Apple helped more than anything |
| 06:16.04 | flyback | usb 3.0 sounds insteresting |
| 06:16.11 | flyback | no dude they wanted $1 per port |
| 06:16.13 | flyback | they killed it |
| 06:16.18 | MonMotha | only if you wanted to call it "Firewire" |
| 06:16.23 | flyback | hmm |
| 06:16.24 | MonMotha | it was a trademark licensing issue |
| 06:16.32 | MonMotha | hence why Sony calls it "i.Link" |
| 06:16.49 | MonMotha | IIRC, IEEE1394 is usable without royalty |
| 06:16.50 | flyback | oh I thought it was just sony being sony |
| 06:16.51 | flyback | :) |
| 06:16.55 | MonMotha | you just can't call it "Firewire" |
| 06:17.11 | flyback | God those people suck |
| 06:17.14 | flyback | I have a shortwave radio |
| 06:17.21 | flyback | the +6 in is negative center |
| 06:17.31 | flyback | you know they did that just to fuck peoplee who won't buy the sony branded adaptor |
| 06:17.47 | MonMotha | most universal adapters have configurable tip polarity... |
| 06:17.57 | flyback | yeah that's true |
| 06:18.01 | flyback | I used to burn those up as a kid |
| 06:18.03 | flyback | every week |
| 06:18.11 | MonMotha | it's entirely possible they did it because the guy designing it goofed and got it backwards, but didn't notice until they had commited to volume production |
| 06:18.23 | MonMotha | so they just ordered TIP- wall warts |
| 06:19.09 | MonMotha | or perhaps it just made the layout nicer |
| 06:19.19 | MonMotha | and in volume, tip negative wall warts don't cost any more than positive |
| 06:19.25 | flyback | knowing sony I am not sure |
| 06:19.25 | MonMotha | especially if you're ordering them custom anyway |
| 06:19.26 | flyback | :P |
| 06:20.59 | flyback | I could have washed a board with all that alcohol |
| 06:20.59 | flyback | :/ |
| 06:22.54 | flyback | uwb video chips |
| 06:22.57 | flyback | wow |
| 06:24.29 | MonMotha | it's a decent application of UWB, at least |
| 06:25.24 | flyback | so did you lookup that chip I mentioned |
| 06:25.35 | flyback | see if you could get it the quanity level you need |
| 06:25.45 | flyback | VGA2625 |
| 06:26.32 | MonMotha | that's not a chip |
| 06:26.34 | MonMotha | that's a full device |
| 06:26.41 | flyback | uh I think that's the chip name |
| 06:26.55 | MonMotha | every link I had came back as a full device |
| 06:27.05 | flyback | dammit |
| 06:27.54 | flyback | displaylink dl-120 |
| 06:28.47 | flyback | http://www.displaylink.com/products/boards.htm |
| 06:28.57 | flyback | doubtful you can get what you want cost wise though :/ |
| 06:29.30 | MonMotha | and the fact that they don't publish datasheets is also troubling |
| 06:29.33 | MonMotha | I'm guessing they want high volume only |
| 06:29.44 | flyback | actually I found it |
| 06:29.56 | flyback | oh wait nm it's a brochure |
| 06:30.25 | MonMotha | they have them that output LVTTL and LVDS |
| 06:30.34 | MonMotha | assuming it can handle low resolutions, they'd be good |
| 06:30.40 | MonMotha | though they do need DDR DRAM |
| 06:31.14 | flyback | you might not need much though for low res |
| 06:31.37 | MonMotha | there's a lower limit on density of such devices |
| 06:31.40 | MonMotha | they're also a layout pain |
| 06:32.06 | flyback | 16 bit ddr |
| 06:32.56 | MonMotha | bus width is not what makes layout for them complicated |
| 06:33.01 | flyback | oh |
| 06:33.02 | MonMotha | timing and termination are |
| 06:33.49 | flyback | I wish I could help more |
| 06:35.01 | davidc__ | MonMotha: heh, matching trace lengths of diff pairs by hand is so much fun isn't it? |
| 06:35.03 | davidc__ | :P |
| 06:36.49 | MonMotha | davidc__: yes |
| 06:36.59 | MonMotha | at my full time job I have a program that does it for me |
| 06:37.03 | MonMotha | well, at least it does it interactively |
| 06:37.32 | MonMotha | even still, finding room on the board to do it while still maintaining impedance requirements and not causing EMC issues is tough |
| 06:38.08 | davidc__ | MonMotha: yup yup.. I was doing GIGE pair matching by hand [in eagle nonetheless], so I know some of the pain ;) |
| 06:38.19 | MonMotha | ouch |
| 06:38.40 | MonMotha | I use Altium Designer (a descendant of Protel) at work |
| 06:39.06 | MonMotha | they just put out an update that improves trace length matching to handle diff pairs way better |
| 06:39.15 | MonMotha | amongst other things |
| 06:40.13 | MonMotha | I'm still hoping they manage to get it multithreaded here soo |
| 06:40.13 | MonMotha | n |
| 06:40.17 | MonMotha | especially the DRC |
| 06:40.32 | MonMotha | pegs my machine at 50% (one core) for upwards of a couple minutes to run the full DRC on some of my designs |
| 06:40.47 | MonMotha | it's a pretty good DRC, at least |
| 06:44.34 | *** join/#edev steliosk (n=Stelios@ipa226.211.tellas.gr) |
| 06:47.14 | flyback | well mon I hope I gave you ideas more than wasted your time |
| 06:47.17 | flyback | good luck |
| 07:00.02 | MonMotha | holy wtf |
| 07:00.06 | MonMotha | xpdf just totally borked thinsg |
| 07:07.29 | *** join/#edev DrZimmerman (n=theo@2001:5c0:8fff:fffe:0:0:0:6af1) |
| 09:11.53 | *** join/#edev lyakh (n=lyakh@dynamic-unidsl-85-197-26-24.westend.de) |
| 10:12.00 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp027.108-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
| 11:41.18 | *** join/#edev linac (n=lin@121.41.73.38) |
| 12:53.09 | *** join/#edev FireEgl (n=FireEgl@adsl-147-91-14.bhm.bellsouth.net) |
| 13:17.27 | *** join/#edev Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-bca0859331895252) |
| 13:37.32 | *** join/#edev lyakh (n=lyakh@dynamic-unidsl-85-197-26-24.westend.de) |
| 14:14.46 | *** join/#edev GPSFan (n=kenm@12.10.255.246) |
| 14:14.46 | *** mode/#edev [+o GPSFan] by ChanServ |
| 14:16.50 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.150.235) |
| 14:27.48 | *** join/#edev lyakh (n=lyakh@dynamic-unidsl-85-197-26-24.westend.de) |
| 14:50.54 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-531.chameleon.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 15:43.31 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-587.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 15:53.52 | *** join/#edev chouimat|Zzzz (n=dieu@kde/developer/chouinard) |
| 16:21.09 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-587.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 16:25.07 | *** join/#edev linac (n=lin@121.41.64.39) |
| 16:50.20 | *** join/#edev Crofton (n=balister@66.207.66.26) |
| 17:28.18 | *** join/#edev dijenerate (n=dijenera@72.22.150.235) |
| 17:50.29 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-587.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 19:36.54 | *** join/#edev likewise (n=leon@82-171-189-134.dsl.ip.tiscali.nl) |
| 19:45.29 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp024.109-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
| 19:54.00 | *** join/#edev Off_Namuh (i=GPS@gateway/tor/x-bb5e4a520480d6fc) |
| 20:09.49 | *** join/#edev ico2 (n=ico2@modem-587.cougar.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 21:45.42 | *** join/#edev ico2_ (n=ico2@modem-78.cheetah.dialup.pol.co.uk) |
| 22:41.53 | *** join/#edev joe_bleau (n=joe_blea@adsl-65-67-67-84.dsl.fyvlar.swbell.net) |
| 23:46.08 | *** join/#edev ico2__ (n=ico2@modem-2503.chimpanzee.dialup.pol.co.uk) |