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| 07:01.17 | nope | what happened to the wiki page about dht-walnut ?? |
| 07:01.26 | nope | the page has been removed |
| 07:01.45 | nope | http://www.elinux.org/Wiki/DHT-Walnut |
| 07:01.54 | nope | see yourself |
| 07:01.55 | nope | :( |
| 07:05.07 | steliosk | i think the entire wiki has problems |
| 07:05.57 | nope | how to fix ? |
| 07:09.49 | nope | informations lost |
| 07:09.51 | nope | :( |
| 07:21.35 | steliosk | cross fingers maintainer had a back-up |
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| 13:26.44 | wmat | nope: http://elinux.org/DHT-Walnut |
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| 13:30.32 | wmat | steliosk: the wiki isn't broken, but it has been merged with the old CELF public wiki with the result being the new elinux.org |
| 13:30.39 | wmat | which is still a work in progress |
| 13:31.02 | wmat | all of the old elinux.org content is in the Hardware Hacking portion of the enw wiki |
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| 14:46.31 | chouimat | morning |
| 14:53.59 | prpplague | lordy lordy |
| 14:54.10 | prpplague | nearly had a heart attack this morning |
| 14:54.43 | prpplague | boss signed me up for access to a m$ mobile and embedded support site |
| 14:55.15 | prpplague | had to make an immediate request to remove my access |
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| 14:56.51 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: didn't you have to fight to keep AMD from getting you signed up for access to m$ code/support sites? |
| 14:57.31 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 15:01.41 | chouimat | prpplague: ouch |
| 15:03.11 | prpplague | chouimat: fortunately i caught it before the account was activated |
| 15:05.38 | *** join/#edev CosmicPenguin (i=nobody@nat/amd/x-92a32cfdadc1666b) |
| 15:05.39 | *** mode/#edev [+o CosmicPenguin] by ChanServ |
| 15:05.42 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: re |
| 15:06.12 | CosmicPenguin | I swear, I'll replace everythin in this box until I figure out what breaks |
| 15:06.41 | prpplague | hehe |
| 15:06.46 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: didn't you have to fight to keep AMD from getting you signed up for access to m$ code/support sites? |
| 15:06.51 | *** part/#edev LyosNorezel2 (n=lyosnore@unaffiliated/lyosnorezel) |
| 15:13.47 | chouimat | prpplague: must be a bad experience :) |
| 15:15.29 | CosmicPenguin | Not AMD - just a clueless manager |
| 15:15.56 | prpplague | chouimat: yea its my understanding from reading the initial text, that it would limit the amount of open source/GPL work i could do, plus put in jeopardy anything i had worked on |
| 15:16.02 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: ahh |
| 15:16.47 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: similiar reasons i assume, that you didn't need the possibility of conflict |
| 15:16.52 | CosmicPenguin | Access to MSDN is a) not necessary for me, and b) potentially bad |
| 15:18.01 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yea, thats basically the same reasons i gave the boss |
| 15:23.45 | chouimat | prpplague: yesterday I saw one of the guy I worked with at xandros and he looked like he was a few inches of jumping from a cliff ... it seems now that the boss is now so paranoid that last week he made all employee sign new NDA and another one that ban them from doing any opensource/gpl coding at home |
| 15:24.09 | wmat | chouimat: that's grounds to quit |
| 15:24.59 | prpplague | chouimat: SAY WHAT? |
| 15:25.19 | prpplague | chouimat: you have got to be joking |
| 15:25.22 | chouimat | wmat: if you ever worked there you will know that you don't even need that to quit ... look even working for the government is not this hard on your morale :) |
| 15:25.30 | chouimat | prpplague: no ... |
| 15:25.49 | prpplague | jeeze |
| 15:26.36 | chouimat | prpplague: and it's not a problem for the current employees because no one do GPL stuff at home because they a) have no time for it (management sucks) b) they can't even see their home computer without being sick |
| 15:27.02 | CosmicPenguin | yeah - I would walk out on the spot |
| 15:28.18 | chouimat | CosmicPenguin: same here ... but like he told me "I want to quit but I have a wife and 2 kids ..." |
| 15:28.53 | CosmicPenguin | myu wife would be like - don't sign the friggin fimr |
| 15:28.55 | CosmicPenguin | form even |
| 15:29.41 | prpplague | chouimat: i would have started looking for a new job that happened |
| 15:34.47 | wmat | chouimat: that's too bad, given that it's a Linux co. |
| 15:35.36 | chouimat | wmat: I'm not sure they really believe in it :) |
| 15:37.32 | wmat | to be honest, i'm surprised Xandros still exists |
| 15:38.02 | chouimat | me too |
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| 17:06.56 | *** join/#edev prpplague (n=billybob@mail.americanmicrosystems.com) |
| 17:07.57 | prpplague | ho ho hum |
| 17:08.08 | prpplague | handhelds.org has been going down hill for ages |
| 17:08.15 | prpplague | now they are just getting stupid |
| 17:09.08 | prpplague | http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/05/24/157218 |
| 17:10.56 | prpplague | "The US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) records trademark filings on Opie, GPE, and iPKG, all under the name of Handhelds.org administrator George France," |
| 17:10.57 | CosmicPenguin | MonMotha: you owe freenode an apology |
| 17:11.24 | prpplague | makes me never want to do anything with hh.o |
| 17:11.31 | sunrunner20 | whats iPKG? |
| 17:12.28 | prpplague | http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg |
| 17:12.39 | CosmicPenguin | ipkg is like crack though |
| 17:14.17 | sunrunner20 | 'sfotware patents ftl |
| 17:17.01 | prpplague | i can't believe the attitude and behavior of hh.o |
| 17:17.55 | chouimat | prpplague: i think what is happening with hh.o is way better than general hospital ;) |
| 17:18.09 | prpplague | chouimat: yea, just disappointing |
| 17:19.25 | chouimat | hmmm 13:18 time to go get something to eat |
| 17:19.55 | prpplague | chouimat: i just can't figure out if its just immaturity, egotism, or greed (maybe all three) |
| 17:19.59 | wmat | this is a useful powerconsumption tool: http://www.linuxpowertop.org/ |
| 17:20.09 | wmat | for those interested in that sort of thing ;) |
| 17:20.14 | CosmicPenguin | assuming you have ACPI |
| 17:20.27 | prpplague | thats what i was typing |
| 17:20.37 | wmat | well, useful for laptops anyway |
| 17:21.32 | prpplague | ~seen mallum |
| 17:22.07 | purl | mallum <n=mallum@host81-156-120-160.range81-156.btcentralplus.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 22d 2h 4m 23s ago, saying: 'hey koen'. |
| 17:22.07 | CosmicPenguin | is pb_ still around? I haven't seen him in ages |
| 17:22.07 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: he basically got moved in to a PHB job , iirc |
| 17:22.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: he shows up once in awhile |
| 17:22.31 | chouimat | prpplague: probably pissed off :) |
| 17:22.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i find alot of professionals are moving away from using irc |
| 17:23.04 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: or atleast open irc networks |
| 17:23.07 | CosmicPenguin | RP and mallum lurk in #olpc, but I haven't talked to either of them in while |
| 17:23.10 | CosmicPenguin | thats unfortuante |
| 17:23.40 | CosmicPenguin | That shows a corporate attitude that is not compatible with the community |
| 17:24.19 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: you saying that corporate is not matching the community, or the community not matching the corporate? |
| 17:25.00 | CosmicPenguin | corporate is not matching the community |
| 17:25.33 | prpplague | hmm |
| 17:25.40 | chouimat | CosmicPenguin: some corporation are better than others on this |
| 17:26.07 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i just find that alot of the channels now have a ton of noise these days |
| 17:26.16 | CosmicPenguin | you don't need to interact with the noise |
| 17:27.15 | prpplague | true, but it doesn't seem like that those that could provide interaction are will to participate any longer |
| 17:27.23 | prpplague | because of the noise |
| 17:27.56 | CosmicPenguin | thats a handy excuse |
| 17:28.10 | prpplague | i've not seen rmk or gkh on irc in ages |
| 17:28.23 | CosmicPenguin | Thats different |
| 17:28.28 | prpplague | (not that hey aren't just i've not seen them) |
| 17:28.28 | CosmicPenguin | they irc, but they irc where they won't be bothered |
| 17:28.32 | CosmicPenguin | thats not the same as noise |
| 17:28.40 | CosmicPenguin | I irc so I can be bothered |
| 17:29.12 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: i guess my wording isn't proper, since that was my point |
| 17:29.34 | CosmicPenguin | If you are popular enough that you'll get bothered all the time - then yeah, I can see you going elsewhere |
| 17:29.43 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: people rmk and gkh are moving to close(secret?) irc servers |
| 17:29.56 | CosmicPenguin | But that doesn't mean that IRCing itself is unprofessional |
| 17:29.59 | CosmicPenguin | or useful |
| 17:30.41 | CosmicPenguin | or that the secret servers are any less noisy - I've been to the kernel server - its not pretty in there... :) |
| 17:30.46 | prpplague | agreed, on both, just saying that the current influx of people onto freenode has increase the pressures of professionals trying to use the channels for project work |
| 17:31.02 | CosmicPenguin | #olpc seems to do okay |
| 17:31.11 | CosmicPenguin | some of the other rooms do suffer #xorg-devel, for example |
| 17:31.18 | prpplague | yea |
| 17:32.14 | wmat | prpplague: wouldn't professionals using IRC for project work probably use private channels |
| 17:33.11 | chouimat | wmat: not sure it will depend on the company internet usage policy :) |
| 17:33.12 | prpplague | wmat: they can and do, however when a project is associated with something like mtd, you really can't just use one channel, you have to be where the "mtd guys" are |
| 17:33.49 | prpplague | i respect dwmw2 for keeping a presence on #mtd |
| 17:34.01 | wmat | yes, true |
| 17:34.02 | prpplague | he might not always be there for a question, but he's there |
| 17:34.16 | CosmicPenguin | heh - are you kidding? |
| 17:34.16 | wmat | i've found there's usually 1 or 2 people in a channel who can keep it civil |
| 17:34.29 | CosmicPenguin | dwmw2 has hit the limit of freenode rooms he can be in |
| 17:34.31 | CosmicPenguin | he's everywhere |
| 17:35.02 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: yes, i know he's in alot of channels, but he does have a "day job" |
| 17:35.10 | chouimat | wmat: true we are all "flyback/fishhead in training" ;) |
| 17:35.20 | prpplague | chouimat: speak for yourself |
| 17:35.28 | chouimat | prpplague: it's a joke :) |
| 17:35.35 | prpplague | chouimat: i know |
| 17:36.06 | prpplague | hehe |
| 17:37.33 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: like mallum and pb, they used to be on everyday now you rarely seem them |
| 17:37.48 | CosmicPenguin | mallum is a very busy php too |
| 17:37.56 | CosmicPenguin | phb even |
| 17:38.20 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: and to be honest, i've half way been expect you to stop showing up |
| 17:38.29 | prpplague | s/expect/expecting |
| 17:38.33 | CosmicPenguin | this is my job |
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| 17:39.59 | wmat | who's mallum and where is he a PHB? |
| 17:40.18 | CosmicPenguin | mallum is the father of matchbox |
| 17:41.03 | CosmicPenguin | he is a PHB at his own company OpenedHand |
| 17:41.20 | CosmicPenguin | They are the guys who did the GUI for the Nokia 770 |
| 17:41.41 | CosmicPenguin | Matthew Allum is his meatspace name - also, RP (RIchard Purdie) works there |
| 17:42.40 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: today was the first time i'd heard from TimRiker in ages |
| 17:42.43 | agaffney | meatspace? I've never heard that before :P |
| 17:43.07 | wmat | i've been in contact with Tim of late |
| 17:43.28 | wmat | regarding the wiki switchover |
| 17:43.43 | CosmicPenguin | mallum, prpplague, kergoth, and I and a few others go way bakc |
| 17:43.48 | CosmicPenguin | to the ipaq / tuxscreen days |
| 17:44.29 | wmat | ah, openedhand hires telecommuters |
| 17:45.15 | wmat | and did he? |
| 17:45.27 | prpplague | wmat: hehe yea, matchbox |
| 17:45.45 | wmat | ah |
| 17:45.48 | CosmicPenguin | I remember the very beginnings of buildroot, when andersee wrote the monolithic makefile for tuxscreen |
| 17:45.56 | CosmicPenguin | that thing was a beast |
| 17:45.56 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: hehe yea |
| 17:45.59 | wmat | well, he may turn up in ubuntu-mobile then |
| 17:46.00 | prpplague | CosmicPenguin: that it was |
| 17:46.12 | wmat | as they're using matchbox, i think |
| 17:46.22 | CosmicPenguin | wmat: it better, matchbox is the _only_ embedded window manager worth using |
| 17:46.25 | CosmicPenguin | OLPC uses it |
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| 17:46.53 | wmat | what's Hildon then? |
| 17:47.17 | wmat | is it a desktop on top on matchbox? |
| 17:49.24 | prpplague | not familiar with Hildon myself, iirc its jsut nokia's desktop environment |
| 17:49.33 | wmat | yes, basically |
| 17:49.35 | MonMotha | CosmicPenguin: I owe nobody an apology, simply because I think this network sucks |
| 17:49.54 | CosmicPenguin | MonMotha: but the handhelds name change wasn't freenode's doing - it was handhelds itself |
| 17:50.10 | MonMotha | CosmicPenguin: I see that, though the freenode admin who handled it could have made that much more clear |
| 17:50.20 | MonMotha | it was handled VERY badly, in my opinion |
| 17:50.26 | MonMotha | basically, admin enters, kicks everybody and redirects |
| 17:50.44 | MonMotha | I no long sit in that channel anyway |
| 17:51.21 | wmat | mallum has posted to the ubuntu-mobile mailing list lately as well |
| 17:51.26 | prpplague | MonMotha: yea, i left too |
| 17:51.57 | prpplague | wmat: yea he generally is pretty active on mailing lists, just don't seem him on any of the old irc channels much anymore |
| 17:52.05 | wmat | ah |
| 17:52.37 | MonMotha | also, Matchbox isn't the only WM appropriate for embedded type stuff, but is by far one of the best |
| 17:52.49 | MonMotha | I had an FVWM build that worked fairly well, and wasn't overly large |
| 17:53.09 | MonMotha | one of the nice thigns about FVWM is that you can make it do just about anything. Just gotta keep size under control |
| 17:53.21 | ds2 | why X? |
| 17:53.33 | MonMotha | because X is useful |
| 17:53.55 | ds2 | but on most smaller devices, X makes it very tight |
| 17:54.00 | MonMotha | there's a lot of stuff out there fore it |
| 17:54.01 | MonMotha | for |
| 17:54.11 | MonMotha | the X server itself isn't that bad. The issue is the darned toolkits |
| 17:54.14 | ds2 | the FB stuff seems much more suited size wise |
| 17:54.29 | ds2 | oh yes.... the 2343294823904902384092384903890238 shlibs that needs to be around (thank you redhat, etc.) |
| 17:54.36 | MonMotha | exactly |
| 17:54.48 | prpplague | ds2: if you are doing a single purpose device, designing a fb app is defiently better |
| 17:54.52 | MonMotha | there's a lot of software out there that uses X, but it all wants soooo many libraries |
| 17:55.01 | ds2 | i am trying to take a hard look at the whole DFB scheme |
| 17:55.23 | CosmicPenguin | thats silly - the modular X server is way more useful then the monolithic code ever was |
| 17:55.23 | prpplague | ds2: problem is, lots of time you need to have additional apps that are already available for x |
| 17:55.23 | MonMotha | and yes, I'll agree with prpplague there. If you have a single custom app that runs on the device, running right on the FB is probably better |
| 17:55.23 | MonMotha | QT/E can handle that on its own,too |
| 17:55.23 | ds2 | prpplague: there is always VNC tunneling in from the outside |
| 17:55.33 | ds2 | QT has IP issues, AFAIK |
| 17:55.44 | MonMotha | CosmicPenguin: I'm not referring to the libraries that come with the X server, but rather all the other libraries that lots of X apps assume you have/want |
| 17:55.47 | prpplague | ds2: not practical in most situations |
| 17:55.54 | CosmicPenguin | Thats not X's fault |
| 17:56.15 | MonMotha | no it isn't, but given that one of the big reasons to adopt X on an embedded device is reuse of existing stuff, it's still an issue |
| 17:56.28 | MonMotha | you can usually control it at least |
| 17:56.35 | MonMotha | many apps let you build them without support for much of that stuff |
| 17:56.36 | ds2 | prpplague: I hope to put that to a test as I am putting together a mini arm box for use as a daily laptop replacement |
| 17:57.01 | prpplague | ds2: i'm sure it will "work" fine, but its just not practical to sell |
| 17:57.33 | ds2 | prpplague: other then a PDA, how often do you need to make a device that runs a general set of apps? |
| 17:58.13 | prpplague | ds2: _every day_ |
| 17:58.26 | ds2 | prpplague: what kind of device? |
| 17:58.49 | prpplague | industrial handhelds, stationary terminals, forklift terminals |
| 17:58.57 | MonMotha | ds2: there are lots of companies that sell hardware with a base system to others who then put their own software on it |
| 17:58.57 | prpplague | kiosks, price checkers |
| 17:59.05 | ds2 | but that is not general set of apps, it is a close set of apps |
| 17:59.12 | ds2 | still, that is a confined set of apps |
| 17:59.30 | prpplague | ds2: how do you figure its confined? |
| 17:59.31 | MonMotha | yes, but many companies don't want to take the time to develop a completely custom FB app whent hey can just cobble together a bunch of X apps |
| 17:59.37 | MonMotha | time to market is a BIG deal |
| 17:59.44 | MonMotha | like it or not... |
| 18:00.33 | ds2 | prplague: I don't expect the buyers to say... want to run Xpilot on itone day and and open office another and gimp another for example... the app is probaly not going to change often during the life of it |
| 18:00.59 | ds2 | but there are libraries (or so they claim) that will let you mostly compile an X app for FB |
| 18:01.09 | MonMotha | *SOME* X apps |
| 18:01.21 | MonMotha | and they then own the display - no window managing |
| 18:01.25 | CosmicPenguin | having been part of one such effort - they suck |
| 18:01.48 | MonMotha | which means you have to come up with your own method of switching between apps (from a display point of view) |
| 18:02.18 | ds2 | that's raw FB |
| 18:02.22 | prpplague | ds2: problem is we have no clue which app they might want to run, one person might want to have a TN5270, another might have a vt100, another might want to have a time tracker application |
| 18:02.29 | ds2 | there is a window manager with the DFB libraries |
| 18:02.43 | prpplague | ds2: we simply don't have resources to write all those apps, instead we just use existing x apps |
| 18:02.55 | ds2 | prplague: gotcha. I was under the impression that they order it w/the app and you just install it prior to shipping |
| 18:03.45 | prpplague | ds2: no, we have no clue what they use it for |
| 18:04.24 | ds2 | so in some sense, that is really a ruggedize PDA |
| 18:04.39 | prpplague | ds2: in many ways, yes |
| 18:05.31 | ds2 | prpplague, so that would fall into the PDA exception... but then my comments come from working mostly w/appliance type setups |
| 18:05.53 | MonMotha | so the conclusion would then be that there are a large number of devices which fall into the PDA exception? |
| 18:06.15 | ds2 | from what I see, no |
| 18:06.49 | ds2 | I am thinking of the closed (deeply embedded linux) phones, etc. |
| 18:07.24 | MonMotha | actually, given what people do with their phones tehse days, I'm surprised they aren't looking into X more |
| 18:08.17 | ds2 | with the released phones, has anyone offered X on a phone? |
| 18:08.30 | chouimat | wince :) |
| 18:08.36 | ds2 | (that should prevent anyone from breaking an NDA by answering) |
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| 20:50.23 | prpplague | bad storm moving through |
| 20:50.26 | *** mode/#edev [+o prpplague] by ChanServ |
| 20:51.04 | Crofton | any word on the visa? |
| 20:55.34 | prpplague | Crofton: everything is complete, just waiting for the paperwork to arrive in barbados |
| 20:55.39 | chouimat|away | bbl pub time |
| 20:55.46 | Crofton | l8r |
| 20:55.55 | Crofton | keep your finder crossed .... |
| 20:56.06 | prpplague | Crofton: yea |
| 20:56.21 | prpplague | Crofton: her medical expires at the end of june, so we gotta get it done before then |
| 20:56.25 | chouimat|away | prpplague: hope not postal services employees strike ;) |
| 20:56.32 | prpplague | chouimat|away: worse |
| 20:56.40 | prpplague | chouimat|away: it was sent via diplomatic pouch |
| 20:56.54 | prpplague | chouimat|away: its already been 3 weeks since then sent it |
| 20:57.03 | chouimat|away | ouch |
| 21:15.24 | prpplague | cbrake: you get my /msg ? |
| 21:15.56 | cbrake | prpplague: no, I did not -- hmm, wonder if it went to another window ... |
| 21:16.28 | cbrake | prpplague: can you resend? |
| 21:17.09 | prpplague | cbrake: hehe yea, np, i have a meeting between 9 and 10 am tomorrow, after that i'm available |
| 21:17.53 | cbrake | prpplague: what Tzone you in? |
| 21:18.09 | prpplague | cbrake: central |
| 21:18.42 | prpplague | cbrake: or more accurately, Texas Zone |
| 21:18.46 | cbrake | prpplague: heh |
| 21:19.14 | cbrake | prpplague: OK, I'll call at 11:00 central time. Can you send my your phone #? |
| 21:19.18 | cbrake | *me |
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