irclog2html for #edev on 20070121

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06:47.10MonMothadigital stuff is so much easier to rout
06:47.12MonMothae
06:47.22T0mWyeah
06:47.31MonMothaespecially when you can fudge the pintout of the chips to your pleasing (PLDs, micros to a certain extent)
06:47.50T0mWMonMotha: that is where you really have to pay attention to current loops in the PCB traces!
06:48.13MonMothaoh yeah
06:48.23MonMothaI'm adament that this will not end up being a 4 layer board!
06:48.31MonMothaeven if I have to make it a little bit bigger
06:54.31T0mWnobody does those multilayers cheap. the 2 layer stuff is like a "quikie test" of an idea
06:58.49MonMothawell, since I'm a student, Advanced Circuits gives me 50% off prototype multilayers
06:59.03MonMothabut it's still on the order of $100-150 per board for even small designs
06:59.07MonMothaI've never had one made
06:59.36MonMothaI always have gone back and tried harder and managed to get it down to 2 layers, sometimes at the expense of making the board a bit bigger
07:00.28jbevrena ground layer is nice though
07:01.22MonMothaoh it's nice, but it's also something you have to pay $$$ for if you can't otherwise fit the design onto 1 layer
07:01.31MonMotha2 layer boards are CHEAP
07:01.37jbevrentoo true
07:01.43MonMotha4+ starts getting expensive, especially for prototypes
07:01.52T0mWheh, cheaper to stay "behind the curve"
07:03.29T0mWI was toying with the idea of routing a multilayer FBGA board just to see if I could mount the BGA device myself.  Nothing fancy, just some RAM + JTAG, etc.  BUT!  a four layer board starts out at $1000
07:04.05T0mWthat is with micro-vias, fine traces, etc
07:04.11MonMothaoh yeah
07:04.21MonMothagetting those tiny vias that you need for the FBGAs costs even more money
07:04.44T0mWI'll wait and snag one of the bare FBGA boards from a customer's production run.
07:04.46MonMothaif you don't mind 15mil vias and 6-8 mil trace/space or so, you can get them quite a bit cheaper
07:05.20T0mWok, bootstrap code is built, now to build the loader
07:06.35MonMothaT0mW: I've seen a system that I think may actually work for homebrew BGA mounting
07:06.40MonMothayou have to design the board for it, though
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07:07.24MonMothayou use 2 or 4 metal corner pieces that you hand solder into the board.  You design the board so that they force the placement of the BGA to be correct (since those things are otherwise damn well impossible to hand place).
07:07.29T0mWMonMotha: I've seen systems costing about $5K, the price was about $13K a few years ago.
07:07.30MonMothathat also holds the device down during reflow
07:07.52MonMothathis can be done for a few bucks if you don't mind putting 4 holes in your board that are otherwise unused
07:08.17MonMothanow, you have no method (other than JTAG) to verify that it soldered down fully
07:08.44MonMothabut it's cheap enough to be worth a shot, I guess
07:11.26T0mWMonMotha: unless you have some x-ray equipment lying around...
07:13.05MonMothayeah, I don't
07:13.22T0mWheh, maybe strike a deal with your dentist?
07:13.28MonMothahah
07:45.18T0mWhumph, all that is open around here is Perkins and I don't feel like going there to eat something
07:45.43*** join/#edev DrZimmerman (n=theo@217-162-225-59.dclient.hispeed.ch)
07:48.06MonMothayou know, it's possible to cook food
07:48.18T0mWEIIIIEEAAA!
07:48.20MonMothathat is without having somebody else do it for you
07:48.21T0mWWhat!
07:48.41T0mWMonMotha: it is an excuse to get out of the house
07:49.21T0mWotherwise I would grow into the chair and my fingers would start sticking to the keyboard
07:49.59MonMothayou should get a kneeling chair
07:50.07DrZimmermanlol
07:50.09DrZimmermanmorning all :)
07:50.11MonMothathey're great for avoiding the "growth into chair" syndrome
07:50.46T0mWnaw, I have this nice leather chair I can lean back and fall asleep in...
07:52.31MonMothaI seriously want to know how the people who route 12 layer boards can handle the information overload that comes from seeing all that stuff at the same time
07:52.39MonMothaI realize you're rarely needing to deal with all 12 layers, but still
07:53.41jbevrencant be too much different from hunting
07:53.45jbevrenall those layers of trees
07:53.50jbevrenand one animal to shoot buried in them
07:54.12jbevrenmy big problem is following parallel lines
07:54.26MonMothabecause those NEVER show up on PCBs, especially digital ones...
07:55.21MonMothaI'm also very glad that I have a 1600x1200 screen to work on for these layouts
07:55.24MonMothayou really need the resolution
07:56.26jbevren<- 4800x1024
07:56.29jbevren:D
07:56.35MonMothamultimonitors don't count
07:56.55MonMothaand 1280x1024 sucks for PCB editing
07:57.00MonMothayou just can't see the detail
07:57.03jbevreneach display is 1600x1024, but its nice to have a fullscreen view window and util panels on the others
07:57.04T0mWjbevren: pr0n comes in super wide now?
07:57.16jbevrenT0mW: No idea.  I do know its hard to find backdrops
07:57.24MonMothaoh, I'm not arguing that having all your other info panels on other screens is handy
07:57.32jbevrenI've resorted to a superlarge nasa pic of saturn's aurora
07:57.40MonMothabut I want the extra 176 pixels vertically
07:57.57MonMothawhen I spec out my desktop for work I may see if I can get them to go for something higher than 1600x1200
07:58.06jbevrenIBM has some display thats so high-res that the DVI dual-channel bandwidth limit limits refresh to 12hz
07:58.07MonMotha2048x1536 would be awesome (or a widescreen equiv)
07:58.17MonMothayeah, they make it for medical imaging
07:58.21jbevrennodnod
07:58.22T0mWheh
07:58.24MonMothathat's a little overkill for this
07:58.34jbevrenMonMotha: HP used to make a nice 24" widescreen crt
07:58.35MonMothathey feed it with 4 dual-channel DVI links
07:58.37jbevrenI nearly got one :)
07:59.03MonMothaI much prefer LCDs for computer usage, especially if I'm staring at precise things
07:59.11MonMothaeven at high refreshes, CRTs start to hurt after a while
07:59.16T0mWhow about VR goggles then you can walk right into the ratsnest
07:59.24jbevrenMonMotha: nod
07:59.26MonMothanow for TV and gaming...CRTs are almost better
07:59.34MonMothabut for doing work, I'll take my LCD
07:59.39jbevrenI have three 1600SW (sgi) displays on this workstation
07:59.43MonMothaT0mW: that would be cool
07:59.48T0mWhe
07:59.48jbevrenthe one in the workship has three sony GDM20E20s
08:00.01jbevrenthat would be cool indeed
08:00.06MonMothaput some gloves on that act as styluses on a digitizing board
08:00.08jbevrenbut most VR goggles are embarrasingly low-res
08:00.22MonMothaeach finger than do something different
08:00.28MonMothaI may have to try that for board routing, actually
08:00.50jbevrenDrZimmerman: you need a SGI IR system
08:01.08MonMothajust tap with index for a vertex, middle tap for a via, thumb/ring to move up/down layers, pinky to finish
08:01.09jbevrenhm
08:01.12jbevrenMonMotha: ^^
08:01.12MonMothaand that's just on your right hand!
08:01.25MonMothaleft hand could have lots of soft menus hotkeyed or similar
08:01.35MonMothaor just use it a keyboard like I do now
08:01.36jbevrenMonMotha: Have you played neverwinter nights?
08:01.39MonMothapreferably programmable
08:01.43MonMothajbevren: no
08:01.48jbevrenit has a neat interface concept.
08:01.58jbevrenyou tap (click) an object, and a circular icon menu pops up
08:02.06T0mWMonMotha: thinking too small, you need tools, like scissors, flametorch, etc. in VR
08:02.06jbevrenso in your case, tap with index finger, then select
08:02.20jbevrentom: make a scissors with your fingers
08:02.26T0mWMonMotha: work like a virtual plumber
08:02.29jbevrenthe UI could recognize that easily
08:02.32jbevrena gun for flametorch
08:02.53MonMothaT0mW: I'm thinking using traditioanl display technologies since VR goggles are really not mature
08:03.01MonMothatouchpanel tech, however, is fairly mature
08:03.10jbevrenMonMotha: you'd -want- 3D though if youre working with a glove
08:03.13T0mWneither is the 3d gloves
08:03.19jbevrenmaybe CRT, high refresh, and shutter lenses
08:03.26jbevrenat 120hz, theyre pretty bearable
08:03.44MonMothanot 3d gloves, but think a glove with basically a separate stylus for each finger like you'd use on a digitizing board
08:03.46jbevrenMy friend got a pair for gaming ages ago, it was damn cool in quake3
08:03.53MonMothaso rather than hold a pen, you just hover/tap
08:03.54jbevrenMonMotha: aha
08:03.58jbevrenlike a multibutton puck?
08:04.03jbevren(but hovered)
08:04.05MonMothaif you want another function, tap a different finger
08:04.12MonMothakinda like you'd use a multibutton puck, yes
08:04.27MonMothaI've been tempted to get out my old SummaSketch and see if I can make it work for OrCAD
08:04.32MonMothashould be doable
08:04.41MonMothaproblem is lack of drivers for Windows past 3.1 :)
08:04.47T0mWwhat was the mike douglas movie? Where they did VR for the database?
08:04.49MonMothathere may be 95 drivers, at least
08:04.59jbevrenMonMotha: yeah, that sucks. :(
08:05.04jbevrenlinux supports em tho!
08:05.11MonMothajbevren: oh yeah, the linux support is great
08:05.11jbevren. o O ( wine? )
08:05.17MonMothaunfortunately, I don't have the linux version of OrCAD
08:05.19jbevrenyeah yeah wine sucks I know :)
08:05.24MonMothaand you're CRAZY if you think you acn WINE that thing
08:05.26MonMothait barely runs on Windows!
08:05.37MonMothathere is a linux version of OrCAD, but it's kinda hack
08:05.41T0mWah, "Disclosure"
08:05.59MonMothait's ported using something like winelib (combined with some native code)
08:06.17MonMothaof course, the windows version was ported in a similar manner from solaris, again using a compatibilty library, then subsequently developed using Win32
08:06.34jbevrenmeh
08:06.44MonMothaso you have old solaris code running in a compatibility library interfacing to Win32 code which is running in Linux using a compatbility library interfacing with native Linux code
08:06.46MonMothanot pretty
08:06.47jbevrenI need an early proteus synth to repair mine :(
08:06.50jbevrencant find em cheap
08:07.00jbevrenMonMotha: concur
08:07.02MonMothaOrCAD has THE BEST layout vs. capture facilities I've found yet, though
08:07.10jbevrenget teh solaris version and use a linux Xserver? :)
08:07.10MonMothathat and I know the interface :)
08:07.15jbevren(or jsut xf86 on solaris)
08:07.23MonMothaI'm not sure they still make the Solaris version
08:07.32MonMothalike I said, they started developing it on Windows natively
08:07.38MonMothathere's just some old legacy code
08:07.52MonMothaI'm not even sure it was ported from Solaris specificaly, just some flavor of UNIX
08:08.50MonMothaactually, I don't see that library hanging around anymore (I upgraded a while back
08:08.53MonMothaperhaps they did away with it
08:09.28MonMothastill a few DOS apps :)
08:09.36MonMothaand you can get it to bring up Win3.1 style file dialogs :)
08:10.04MonMotha[Capture] File -> New Project -> [Location] Browse
08:10.27MonMothait does at least handle spaces in file names, unlike Xilinx ISE :)
08:11.26jbevrenheh
08:11.32jbevrenxilinx ISE is native to linux iirc
08:13.06MonMotha6.1 was definately not (again, windows compatibility library)
08:13.14MonMothaI have not tried a newer version
08:13.34jbevrenI tried 7 on debian
08:13.41jbevrenit wouldnt install (failed while trying to write the cdrom drive)
08:13.45MonMothaI couldn't even get the installer for 6.1i to run.  It was linked against GLIBC 2.0, which I didn't haev laying around
08:14.03MonMothawere you trying to run with CWD = your cd drive?
08:14.12jbevrenyep
08:14.12MonMothait tries to write to the CWD, IIRC
08:14.21jbevrenwhich is broken behavior :)
08:14.23MonMothaif you run it from somewhere else, it should work
08:14.25jbevrenit should use /tmp or the install path
08:14.34MonMothaagreed, but what do you expect from a several thousand dollar piece of software?
08:14.41jbevrenbasic testing?
08:14.42MonMothathey all seem badly behaved
08:14.53MonMothain fact, many seem to want you to dedicate an entire system to them
08:15.01MonMothaCadence in particular is bad about that
08:18.51jbevrenHm
08:19.00jbevrenive had the recent urge to pull my A/UX system out and toy with it
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08:27.41jbevrenman did that ever silence the channel
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10:01.15T0mWjbevren: you pass something maloderous?
10:06.31jbevrenhehe
10:06.36jbevrenI'm beginning to wonder
10:06.44jbevrenor perhaps old unixen scare people
10:06.48T0mWdo you mind if I some in here?
10:06.58T0mWdo you mind if I smoke in here?
10:07.01jbevrenno go ahead
10:07.05jbevrenmind if I bum one? I'm out
10:07.10T0mWthank you
10:07.14T0mWsorry, pipe
10:08.03T0mWmaybe I will smoke less when I work.  I mostly end up sucking on a dead pipe more than it gets smoked anyway
10:08.46T0mWO
10:09.25T0mWI've two separate elf programs loaded into Flash memory at two different locations.  Any idea how I can debug them?
10:09.35T0mWhmmm
10:10.07T0mWI wonder, the abatron has several tcp ports setup...
11:22.08T0mW<sigh>
11:22.32T0mWit is the stupid little stuff that takes you 4..5 hours to figure out
11:22.41jbevrenhaha
11:22.43jbevrenyou've no idea
11:22.57jbevrenI've been working on cycle counting for some time now
11:23.30jbevrenI need to bitbang manchester encoding with 100us bit times
11:23.30T0mWI finally figured out how to debug two seperate elf images loaded into flash with gdb.  Took me a while
11:23.33jbevrenon a 1mhz cpu
11:23.33jbevrenlol
11:23.43jbevrenso I have 100 cycles to deal with each bit
11:23.53T0mWOH! I haven't messed with manchester RZ stuff in a while!
11:24.12jbevrenI want to speak ADB on my commodore 64
11:24.14jbevrenjust fer fun
11:24.31jbevrensadly, I wont be able to do it with the video chip enabled, since that thing f/cks with timing
11:24.32jbevrenmeh
11:24.45T0mWmy first mass storage device was a canabalized audio tape recorder that I put a manchester RZ interface into!
11:24.45jbevrenhowever, a good proof of concept will go a long way
11:24.53jbevrenNice :)
11:25.00jbevrenmy first was a 1531 datasette
11:25.03T0mWA whopping 900b/s
11:25.16jbevrenoo'er hehe
11:25.23T0mW:)
11:25.25jbevrenI cant remember the commodore firmware's data rate
11:25.39jbevrenthey had teh advantage of hardware timers, so it was higher than apple's software-only solution
11:25.48T0mWOh, I built this system: a Z80 w/4K of DRAM
11:25.55jbevrencool :)
11:26.02jbevrenmy aspirations are slightly higher
11:26.15T0mWI couldn't afford any of the off-the-shelf models
11:26.18jbevrenSMP 65816 cpu (2x) with 16M ram
11:26.25T0mWheh
11:26.37jbevrenthe bus is slow enough that I can do it if I'm careful
11:26.39jbevrenheh
11:26.55jbevrenI want to add a PU to the thing, but I doubt I'll bother
11:27.58T0mWI like the little chips ARM7TDMI, 8051, 80C188, etc.
11:28.14jbevrenshrug
11:28.26T0mWjbevren: a lot more of a PITA, so I won't get too much competition, heh
11:28.56T0mWI got a hearing, must be getting old
11:29.01T0mWI got a hearing aid, must be getting old
11:29.25T0mWI didn't know how deaf I've become until I got that thing.
11:29.26jbevrenor your hearing's going out :)
11:30.01T0mWtoo much rock-n-roll + work around heavy equipment
11:30.53T0mWgdb is REAL fragile running it on a AMD X2 64 box
11:33.09T0mWdrat! I'm out of cashews
11:34.44T0mW12 degrees out there!
11:35.03jbevrenwimp
11:35.04jbevren-5 here
11:35.11jbevrenoh
11:35.13jbevrenthats celcisu
11:35.15jbevren23 :)
11:35.27T0mWlol
11:35.42T0mW~weather kabe
11:35.56jbevren~weather kmsp
11:35.58jbevrenI think that's mine
11:36.00jbevrenor not
11:36.02T0mWwarmer in the valley
11:36.03jbevrenhrm
11:36.27jbevren~weather mcw
11:36.34T0mWheh
11:36.35jbevrenbah :P
11:36.44T0mW~lart ~weather
11:36.59T0mW~botsnak
11:37.40T0mWwell, I am just going to have to go get another can of cashews.  I cannot end my day without them.
11:37.48jbevrenheh
11:37.52jbevrenI need to get back to daylight time
11:37.58jbevrenI couldnt sleep the other night and now I'm stuck
11:38.06jbevrenstupid 24-hour days
11:38.25T0mWme too, I have an 8AM appointment on Monday
11:38.37jbevrenyou dont seem to run a 24h day tho
11:39.05T0mWI don't know what my hours are anymore, they just "happen"
11:39.08jbevrenheh
11:39.13jbevrenah, the life of a contractor
11:39.38T0mWall work and no puss^H^H^H^H fun
11:43.05jbevrenheh
11:43.08jbevrenwell
11:43.13jbevrenI'm off to (attempt to) sleep
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21:28.25Croftonany of you guys good at interpretting pmap output?
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22:31.24T0mWGPSFan: I ran up OE the other day, installed a fresh software load and then attempted to build the Zipit stuff I have.  It failed, they changed things.  :(
22:32.20Croftonhow did it fail?
22:32.22T0mWGPSFan: you want to have a go at it?  I have a shell script that will load the OE stuff + my Zipit files from webspace.
22:32.27T0mWtasks
22:32.30Croftonah
22:32.34Croftontask-base?
22:32.41Croftonversus task-boostrap?
22:32.51T0mWthey re-arranged the conf/machine conf/distro and task images
22:32.56Croftonyeah
22:33.03Croftonthere has been some work in that ara
22:33.14GPSFanT0mW: hey, I'don't have the time atm to mess with OE. how much space does it take and how long to build?
22:33.36T0mWI have a zipit-image.bb + bootstrap-zipit.bb
22:34.01T0mWGPSFan: about an hour on a 3300 machine w/ 1Gig RAM
22:34.13Croftonincluding tool chain?
22:34.17Croftonnice machine :)
22:34.19T0mWyeah
22:34.31GPSFanok, so it might take 2 hours on my P4 2.8GHz 1G box..
22:34.53T0mWnyuk, nyuk, nyuk
22:35.43T0mWCrofton: takes forever on the AMD64 X2 4800 box as it seems that there are now some native issues with 64bit
22:35.58T0mWCrofton: these appear to have crept in recently
22:36.43Croftoninteresting
22:37.05T0mWIn any event, I've a bunch of the 5wire + SD boards out there in other peoples hands now, with more coming.  So..  I figure that the OE stuff would be welcomed.
22:37.10CroftonI do builds on an amd64 box, but I usully do teh rebuilds when I am not in a hury
22:37.36T0mWCrofton: my last nosedive was with db3-native
22:38.00T0mWCrofton: it bitched that strip couldn't identify the elf file format
22:38.16Croftonheh
22:38.32T0mWCrofton: what are you using on the AMD64? Debian?
22:39.06T0mWI'm using Mandriva right now, but looking for something more stable on 64bit
22:39.15CroftonFC4 I think
22:39.23Croftonsome Fedora
22:40.04T0mWapps randomly will crash and blow themselves off the desktop.  it has gotten a whole lot less frequent with recent updates tot he system, but I still have to be careful when using gdb + insight
22:40.54T0mWCrofton: pretty inconvient when you are tracing through some embedded code and have the debugger suddenly disappear!
22:40.59T0mWheh
22:41.16T0mWas in "boom! ... wtf?"
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22:42.03T0mWgot to remember that when tracing the SWI instruction to do that in Mixed instead of Source display
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