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06:47.10 | MonMotha | digital stuff is so much easier to rout |
06:47.12 | MonMotha | e |
06:47.22 | T0mW | yeah |
06:47.31 | MonMotha | especially when you can fudge the pintout of the chips to your pleasing (PLDs, micros to a certain extent) |
06:47.50 | T0mW | MonMotha: that is where you really have to pay attention to current loops in the PCB traces! |
06:48.13 | MonMotha | oh yeah |
06:48.23 | MonMotha | I'm adament that this will not end up being a 4 layer board! |
06:48.31 | MonMotha | even if I have to make it a little bit bigger |
06:54.31 | T0mW | nobody does those multilayers cheap. the 2 layer stuff is like a "quikie test" of an idea |
06:58.49 | MonMotha | well, since I'm a student, Advanced Circuits gives me 50% off prototype multilayers |
06:59.03 | MonMotha | but it's still on the order of $100-150 per board for even small designs |
06:59.07 | MonMotha | I've never had one made |
06:59.36 | MonMotha | I always have gone back and tried harder and managed to get it down to 2 layers, sometimes at the expense of making the board a bit bigger |
07:00.28 | jbevren | a ground layer is nice though |
07:01.22 | MonMotha | oh it's nice, but it's also something you have to pay $$$ for if you can't otherwise fit the design onto 1 layer |
07:01.31 | MonMotha | 2 layer boards are CHEAP |
07:01.37 | jbevren | too true |
07:01.43 | MonMotha | 4+ starts getting expensive, especially for prototypes |
07:01.52 | T0mW | heh, cheaper to stay "behind the curve" |
07:03.29 | T0mW | I was toying with the idea of routing a multilayer FBGA board just to see if I could mount the BGA device myself. Nothing fancy, just some RAM + JTAG, etc. BUT! a four layer board starts out at $1000 |
07:04.05 | T0mW | that is with micro-vias, fine traces, etc |
07:04.11 | MonMotha | oh yeah |
07:04.21 | MonMotha | getting those tiny vias that you need for the FBGAs costs even more money |
07:04.44 | T0mW | I'll wait and snag one of the bare FBGA boards from a customer's production run. |
07:04.46 | MonMotha | if you don't mind 15mil vias and 6-8 mil trace/space or so, you can get them quite a bit cheaper |
07:05.20 | T0mW | ok, bootstrap code is built, now to build the loader |
07:06.35 | MonMotha | T0mW: I've seen a system that I think may actually work for homebrew BGA mounting |
07:06.40 | MonMotha | you have to design the board for it, though |
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07:07.24 | MonMotha | you use 2 or 4 metal corner pieces that you hand solder into the board. You design the board so that they force the placement of the BGA to be correct (since those things are otherwise damn well impossible to hand place). |
07:07.29 | T0mW | MonMotha: I've seen systems costing about $5K, the price was about $13K a few years ago. |
07:07.30 | MonMotha | that also holds the device down during reflow |
07:07.52 | MonMotha | this can be done for a few bucks if you don't mind putting 4 holes in your board that are otherwise unused |
07:08.17 | MonMotha | now, you have no method (other than JTAG) to verify that it soldered down fully |
07:08.44 | MonMotha | but it's cheap enough to be worth a shot, I guess |
07:11.26 | T0mW | MonMotha: unless you have some x-ray equipment lying around... |
07:13.05 | MonMotha | yeah, I don't |
07:13.22 | T0mW | heh, maybe strike a deal with your dentist? |
07:13.28 | MonMotha | hah |
07:45.18 | T0mW | humph, all that is open around here is Perkins and I don't feel like going there to eat something |
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07:48.06 | MonMotha | you know, it's possible to cook food |
07:48.18 | T0mW | EIIIIEEAAA! |
07:48.20 | MonMotha | that is without having somebody else do it for you |
07:48.21 | T0mW | What! |
07:48.41 | T0mW | MonMotha: it is an excuse to get out of the house |
07:49.21 | T0mW | otherwise I would grow into the chair and my fingers would start sticking to the keyboard |
07:49.59 | MonMotha | you should get a kneeling chair |
07:50.07 | DrZimmerman | lol |
07:50.09 | DrZimmerman | morning all :) |
07:50.11 | MonMotha | they're great for avoiding the "growth into chair" syndrome |
07:50.46 | T0mW | naw, I have this nice leather chair I can lean back and fall asleep in... |
07:52.31 | MonMotha | I seriously want to know how the people who route 12 layer boards can handle the information overload that comes from seeing all that stuff at the same time |
07:52.39 | MonMotha | I realize you're rarely needing to deal with all 12 layers, but still |
07:53.41 | jbevren | cant be too much different from hunting |
07:53.45 | jbevren | all those layers of trees |
07:53.50 | jbevren | and one animal to shoot buried in them |
07:54.12 | jbevren | my big problem is following parallel lines |
07:54.26 | MonMotha | because those NEVER show up on PCBs, especially digital ones... |
07:55.21 | MonMotha | I'm also very glad that I have a 1600x1200 screen to work on for these layouts |
07:55.24 | MonMotha | you really need the resolution |
07:56.26 | jbevren | <- 4800x1024 |
07:56.29 | jbevren | :D |
07:56.35 | MonMotha | multimonitors don't count |
07:56.55 | MonMotha | and 1280x1024 sucks for PCB editing |
07:57.00 | MonMotha | you just can't see the detail |
07:57.03 | jbevren | each display is 1600x1024, but its nice to have a fullscreen view window and util panels on the others |
07:57.04 | T0mW | jbevren: pr0n comes in super wide now? |
07:57.16 | jbevren | T0mW: No idea. I do know its hard to find backdrops |
07:57.24 | MonMotha | oh, I'm not arguing that having all your other info panels on other screens is handy |
07:57.32 | jbevren | I've resorted to a superlarge nasa pic of saturn's aurora |
07:57.40 | MonMotha | but I want the extra 176 pixels vertically |
07:57.57 | MonMotha | when I spec out my desktop for work I may see if I can get them to go for something higher than 1600x1200 |
07:58.06 | jbevren | IBM has some display thats so high-res that the DVI dual-channel bandwidth limit limits refresh to 12hz |
07:58.07 | MonMotha | 2048x1536 would be awesome (or a widescreen equiv) |
07:58.17 | MonMotha | yeah, they make it for medical imaging |
07:58.21 | jbevren | nodnod |
07:58.22 | T0mW | heh |
07:58.24 | MonMotha | that's a little overkill for this |
07:58.34 | jbevren | MonMotha: HP used to make a nice 24" widescreen crt |
07:58.35 | MonMotha | they feed it with 4 dual-channel DVI links |
07:58.37 | jbevren | I nearly got one :) |
07:59.03 | MonMotha | I much prefer LCDs for computer usage, especially if I'm staring at precise things |
07:59.11 | MonMotha | even at high refreshes, CRTs start to hurt after a while |
07:59.16 | T0mW | how about VR goggles then you can walk right into the ratsnest |
07:59.24 | jbevren | MonMotha: nod |
07:59.26 | MonMotha | now for TV and gaming...CRTs are almost better |
07:59.34 | MonMotha | but for doing work, I'll take my LCD |
07:59.39 | jbevren | I have three 1600SW (sgi) displays on this workstation |
07:59.43 | MonMotha | T0mW: that would be cool |
07:59.48 | T0mW | he |
07:59.48 | jbevren | the one in the workship has three sony GDM20E20s |
08:00.01 | jbevren | that would be cool indeed |
08:00.06 | MonMotha | put some gloves on that act as styluses on a digitizing board |
08:00.08 | jbevren | but most VR goggles are embarrasingly low-res |
08:00.22 | MonMotha | each finger than do something different |
08:00.28 | MonMotha | I may have to try that for board routing, actually |
08:00.50 | jbevren | DrZimmerman: you need a SGI IR system |
08:01.08 | MonMotha | just tap with index for a vertex, middle tap for a via, thumb/ring to move up/down layers, pinky to finish |
08:01.09 | jbevren | hm |
08:01.12 | jbevren | MonMotha: ^^ |
08:01.12 | MonMotha | and that's just on your right hand! |
08:01.25 | MonMotha | left hand could have lots of soft menus hotkeyed or similar |
08:01.35 | MonMotha | or just use it a keyboard like I do now |
08:01.36 | jbevren | MonMotha: Have you played neverwinter nights? |
08:01.39 | MonMotha | preferably programmable |
08:01.43 | MonMotha | jbevren: no |
08:01.48 | jbevren | it has a neat interface concept. |
08:01.58 | jbevren | you tap (click) an object, and a circular icon menu pops up |
08:02.06 | T0mW | MonMotha: thinking too small, you need tools, like scissors, flametorch, etc. in VR |
08:02.06 | jbevren | so in your case, tap with index finger, then select |
08:02.20 | jbevren | tom: make a scissors with your fingers |
08:02.26 | T0mW | MonMotha: work like a virtual plumber |
08:02.29 | jbevren | the UI could recognize that easily |
08:02.32 | jbevren | a gun for flametorch |
08:02.53 | MonMotha | T0mW: I'm thinking using traditioanl display technologies since VR goggles are really not mature |
08:03.01 | MonMotha | touchpanel tech, however, is fairly mature |
08:03.10 | jbevren | MonMotha: you'd -want- 3D though if youre working with a glove |
08:03.13 | T0mW | neither is the 3d gloves |
08:03.19 | jbevren | maybe CRT, high refresh, and shutter lenses |
08:03.26 | jbevren | at 120hz, theyre pretty bearable |
08:03.44 | MonMotha | not 3d gloves, but think a glove with basically a separate stylus for each finger like you'd use on a digitizing board |
08:03.46 | jbevren | My friend got a pair for gaming ages ago, it was damn cool in quake3 |
08:03.53 | MonMotha | so rather than hold a pen, you just hover/tap |
08:03.54 | jbevren | MonMotha: aha |
08:03.58 | jbevren | like a multibutton puck? |
08:04.03 | jbevren | (but hovered) |
08:04.05 | MonMotha | if you want another function, tap a different finger |
08:04.12 | MonMotha | kinda like you'd use a multibutton puck, yes |
08:04.27 | MonMotha | I've been tempted to get out my old SummaSketch and see if I can make it work for OrCAD |
08:04.32 | MonMotha | should be doable |
08:04.41 | MonMotha | problem is lack of drivers for Windows past 3.1 :) |
08:04.47 | T0mW | what was the mike douglas movie? Where they did VR for the database? |
08:04.49 | MonMotha | there may be 95 drivers, at least |
08:04.59 | jbevren | MonMotha: yeah, that sucks. :( |
08:05.04 | jbevren | linux supports em tho! |
08:05.11 | MonMotha | jbevren: oh yeah, the linux support is great |
08:05.11 | jbevren | . o O ( wine? ) |
08:05.17 | MonMotha | unfortunately, I don't have the linux version of OrCAD |
08:05.19 | jbevren | yeah yeah wine sucks I know :) |
08:05.24 | MonMotha | and you're CRAZY if you think you acn WINE that thing |
08:05.26 | MonMotha | it barely runs on Windows! |
08:05.37 | MonMotha | there is a linux version of OrCAD, but it's kinda hack |
08:05.41 | T0mW | ah, "Disclosure" |
08:05.59 | MonMotha | it's ported using something like winelib (combined with some native code) |
08:06.17 | MonMotha | of course, the windows version was ported in a similar manner from solaris, again using a compatibilty library, then subsequently developed using Win32 |
08:06.34 | jbevren | meh |
08:06.44 | MonMotha | so you have old solaris code running in a compatibility library interfacing to Win32 code which is running in Linux using a compatbility library interfacing with native Linux code |
08:06.46 | MonMotha | not pretty |
08:06.47 | jbevren | I need an early proteus synth to repair mine :( |
08:06.50 | jbevren | cant find em cheap |
08:07.00 | jbevren | MonMotha: concur |
08:07.02 | MonMotha | OrCAD has THE BEST layout vs. capture facilities I've found yet, though |
08:07.10 | jbevren | get teh solaris version and use a linux Xserver? :) |
08:07.10 | MonMotha | that and I know the interface :) |
08:07.15 | jbevren | (or jsut xf86 on solaris) |
08:07.23 | MonMotha | I'm not sure they still make the Solaris version |
08:07.32 | MonMotha | like I said, they started developing it on Windows natively |
08:07.38 | MonMotha | there's just some old legacy code |
08:07.52 | MonMotha | I'm not even sure it was ported from Solaris specificaly, just some flavor of UNIX |
08:08.50 | MonMotha | actually, I don't see that library hanging around anymore (I upgraded a while back |
08:08.53 | MonMotha | perhaps they did away with it |
08:09.28 | MonMotha | still a few DOS apps :) |
08:09.36 | MonMotha | and you can get it to bring up Win3.1 style file dialogs :) |
08:10.04 | MonMotha | [Capture] File -> New Project -> [Location] Browse |
08:10.27 | MonMotha | it does at least handle spaces in file names, unlike Xilinx ISE :) |
08:11.26 | jbevren | heh |
08:11.32 | jbevren | xilinx ISE is native to linux iirc |
08:13.06 | MonMotha | 6.1 was definately not (again, windows compatibility library) |
08:13.14 | MonMotha | I have not tried a newer version |
08:13.34 | jbevren | I tried 7 on debian |
08:13.41 | jbevren | it wouldnt install (failed while trying to write the cdrom drive) |
08:13.45 | MonMotha | I couldn't even get the installer for 6.1i to run. It was linked against GLIBC 2.0, which I didn't haev laying around |
08:14.03 | MonMotha | were you trying to run with CWD = your cd drive? |
08:14.12 | jbevren | yep |
08:14.12 | MonMotha | it tries to write to the CWD, IIRC |
08:14.21 | jbevren | which is broken behavior :) |
08:14.23 | MonMotha | if you run it from somewhere else, it should work |
08:14.25 | jbevren | it should use /tmp or the install path |
08:14.34 | MonMotha | agreed, but what do you expect from a several thousand dollar piece of software? |
08:14.41 | jbevren | basic testing? |
08:14.42 | MonMotha | they all seem badly behaved |
08:14.53 | MonMotha | in fact, many seem to want you to dedicate an entire system to them |
08:15.01 | MonMotha | Cadence in particular is bad about that |
08:18.51 | jbevren | Hm |
08:19.00 | jbevren | ive had the recent urge to pull my A/UX system out and toy with it |
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08:27.41 | jbevren | man did that ever silence the channel |
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10:01.15 | T0mW | jbevren: you pass something maloderous? |
10:06.31 | jbevren | hehe |
10:06.36 | jbevren | I'm beginning to wonder |
10:06.44 | jbevren | or perhaps old unixen scare people |
10:06.48 | T0mW | do you mind if I some in here? |
10:06.58 | T0mW | do you mind if I smoke in here? |
10:07.01 | jbevren | no go ahead |
10:07.05 | jbevren | mind if I bum one? I'm out |
10:07.10 | T0mW | thank you |
10:07.14 | T0mW | sorry, pipe |
10:08.03 | T0mW | maybe I will smoke less when I work. I mostly end up sucking on a dead pipe more than it gets smoked anyway |
10:08.46 | T0mW | O |
10:09.25 | T0mW | I've two separate elf programs loaded into Flash memory at two different locations. Any idea how I can debug them? |
10:09.35 | T0mW | hmmm |
10:10.07 | T0mW | I wonder, the abatron has several tcp ports setup... |
11:22.08 | T0mW | <sigh> |
11:22.32 | T0mW | it is the stupid little stuff that takes you 4..5 hours to figure out |
11:22.41 | jbevren | haha |
11:22.43 | jbevren | you've no idea |
11:22.57 | jbevren | I've been working on cycle counting for some time now |
11:23.30 | jbevren | I need to bitbang manchester encoding with 100us bit times |
11:23.30 | T0mW | I finally figured out how to debug two seperate elf images loaded into flash with gdb. Took me a while |
11:23.33 | jbevren | on a 1mhz cpu |
11:23.33 | jbevren | lol |
11:23.43 | jbevren | so I have 100 cycles to deal with each bit |
11:23.53 | T0mW | OH! I haven't messed with manchester RZ stuff in a while! |
11:24.12 | jbevren | I want to speak ADB on my commodore 64 |
11:24.14 | jbevren | just fer fun |
11:24.31 | jbevren | sadly, I wont be able to do it with the video chip enabled, since that thing f/cks with timing |
11:24.32 | jbevren | meh |
11:24.45 | T0mW | my first mass storage device was a canabalized audio tape recorder that I put a manchester RZ interface into! |
11:24.45 | jbevren | however, a good proof of concept will go a long way |
11:24.53 | jbevren | Nice :) |
11:25.00 | jbevren | my first was a 1531 datasette |
11:25.03 | T0mW | A whopping 900b/s |
11:25.16 | jbevren | oo'er hehe |
11:25.23 | T0mW | :) |
11:25.25 | jbevren | I cant remember the commodore firmware's data rate |
11:25.39 | jbevren | they had teh advantage of hardware timers, so it was higher than apple's software-only solution |
11:25.48 | T0mW | Oh, I built this system: a Z80 w/4K of DRAM |
11:25.55 | jbevren | cool :) |
11:26.02 | jbevren | my aspirations are slightly higher |
11:26.15 | T0mW | I couldn't afford any of the off-the-shelf models |
11:26.18 | jbevren | SMP 65816 cpu (2x) with 16M ram |
11:26.25 | T0mW | heh |
11:26.37 | jbevren | the bus is slow enough that I can do it if I'm careful |
11:26.39 | jbevren | heh |
11:26.55 | jbevren | I want to add a PU to the thing, but I doubt I'll bother |
11:27.58 | T0mW | I like the little chips ARM7TDMI, 8051, 80C188, etc. |
11:28.14 | jbevren | shrug |
11:28.26 | T0mW | jbevren: a lot more of a PITA, so I won't get too much competition, heh |
11:28.56 | T0mW | I got a hearing, must be getting old |
11:29.01 | T0mW | I got a hearing aid, must be getting old |
11:29.25 | T0mW | I didn't know how deaf I've become until I got that thing. |
11:29.26 | jbevren | or your hearing's going out :) |
11:30.01 | T0mW | too much rock-n-roll + work around heavy equipment |
11:30.53 | T0mW | gdb is REAL fragile running it on a AMD X2 64 box |
11:33.09 | T0mW | drat! I'm out of cashews |
11:34.44 | T0mW | 12 degrees out there! |
11:35.03 | jbevren | wimp |
11:35.04 | jbevren | -5 here |
11:35.11 | jbevren | oh |
11:35.13 | jbevren | thats celcisu |
11:35.15 | jbevren | 23 :) |
11:35.27 | T0mW | lol |
11:35.42 | T0mW | ~weather kabe |
11:35.56 | jbevren | ~weather kmsp |
11:35.58 | jbevren | I think that's mine |
11:36.00 | jbevren | or not |
11:36.02 | T0mW | warmer in the valley |
11:36.03 | jbevren | hrm |
11:36.27 | jbevren | ~weather mcw |
11:36.34 | T0mW | heh |
11:36.35 | jbevren | bah :P |
11:36.44 | T0mW | ~lart ~weather |
11:36.59 | T0mW | ~botsnak |
11:37.40 | T0mW | well, I am just going to have to go get another can of cashews. I cannot end my day without them. |
11:37.48 | jbevren | heh |
11:37.52 | jbevren | I need to get back to daylight time |
11:37.58 | jbevren | I couldnt sleep the other night and now I'm stuck |
11:38.06 | jbevren | stupid 24-hour days |
11:38.25 | T0mW | me too, I have an 8AM appointment on Monday |
11:38.37 | jbevren | you dont seem to run a 24h day tho |
11:39.05 | T0mW | I don't know what my hours are anymore, they just "happen" |
11:39.08 | jbevren | heh |
11:39.13 | jbevren | ah, the life of a contractor |
11:39.38 | T0mW | all work and no puss^H^H^H^H fun |
11:43.05 | jbevren | heh |
11:43.08 | jbevren | well |
11:43.13 | jbevren | I'm off to (attempt to) sleep |
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21:28.25 | Crofton | any of you guys good at interpretting pmap output? |
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22:31.24 | T0mW | GPSFan: I ran up OE the other day, installed a fresh software load and then attempted to build the Zipit stuff I have. It failed, they changed things. :( |
22:32.20 | Crofton | how did it fail? |
22:32.22 | T0mW | GPSFan: you want to have a go at it? I have a shell script that will load the OE stuff + my Zipit files from webspace. |
22:32.27 | T0mW | tasks |
22:32.30 | Crofton | ah |
22:32.34 | Crofton | task-base? |
22:32.41 | Crofton | versus task-boostrap? |
22:32.51 | T0mW | they re-arranged the conf/machine conf/distro and task images |
22:32.56 | Crofton | yeah |
22:33.03 | Crofton | there has been some work in that ara |
22:33.14 | GPSFan | T0mW: hey, I'don't have the time atm to mess with OE. how much space does it take and how long to build? |
22:33.36 | T0mW | I have a zipit-image.bb + bootstrap-zipit.bb |
22:34.01 | T0mW | GPSFan: about an hour on a 3300 machine w/ 1Gig RAM |
22:34.13 | Crofton | including tool chain? |
22:34.17 | Crofton | nice machine :) |
22:34.19 | T0mW | yeah |
22:34.31 | GPSFan | ok, so it might take 2 hours on my P4 2.8GHz 1G box.. |
22:34.53 | T0mW | nyuk, nyuk, nyuk |
22:35.43 | T0mW | Crofton: takes forever on the AMD64 X2 4800 box as it seems that there are now some native issues with 64bit |
22:35.58 | T0mW | Crofton: these appear to have crept in recently |
22:36.43 | Crofton | interesting |
22:37.05 | T0mW | In any event, I've a bunch of the 5wire + SD boards out there in other peoples hands now, with more coming. So.. I figure that the OE stuff would be welcomed. |
22:37.10 | Crofton | I do builds on an amd64 box, but I usully do teh rebuilds when I am not in a hury |
22:37.36 | T0mW | Crofton: my last nosedive was with db3-native |
22:38.00 | T0mW | Crofton: it bitched that strip couldn't identify the elf file format |
22:38.16 | Crofton | heh |
22:38.32 | T0mW | Crofton: what are you using on the AMD64? Debian? |
22:39.06 | T0mW | I'm using Mandriva right now, but looking for something more stable on 64bit |
22:39.15 | Crofton | FC4 I think |
22:39.23 | Crofton | some Fedora |
22:40.04 | T0mW | apps randomly will crash and blow themselves off the desktop. it has gotten a whole lot less frequent with recent updates tot he system, but I still have to be careful when using gdb + insight |
22:40.54 | T0mW | Crofton: pretty inconvient when you are tracing through some embedded code and have the debugger suddenly disappear! |
22:40.59 | T0mW | heh |
22:41.16 | T0mW | as in "boom! ... wtf?" |
22:41.40 | *** join/#edev redblue (i=star@ppp115.109-253-207.mtl.mt.videotron.ca) |
22:42.03 | T0mW | got to remember that when tracing the SWI instruction to do that in Mixed instead of Source display |
23:09.35 | *** join/#edev davidc___ (n=davidc@71.237.88.8) |
23:26.02 | *** join/#edev Crofton (n=balister@c-24-127-37-248.hsd1.va.comcast.net) |