| 00:00.38 | Wafficus | dang, my notes didn't have that apt install command from earlier |
| 00:00.48 | Wafficus | what was the apt install command to install Emacs from backports? |
| 00:01.01 | Wafficus | sorry to ask, but my weechat buffer quit after I restarted as well :/ |
| 00:01.07 | Wafficus | just wanted to put this in my notes for reference |
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| 00:05.21 | rwp | Wafficus, "apt-get install -t beowulf-backports -s emacs" |
| 00:05.57 | rwp | The -s being the simulate option. Remove that to actually do it. |
| 00:06.39 | Wafficus | thanks |
| 00:07.52 | rwp | Good luck! For me every time I upgrade to a new release of Emacs then I must spend three days fixing the things they have broken on me. :-( |
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| 00:09.36 | Wafficus | thanks rwp |
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| 00:56.31 | Wafficus | I'm trying to swap ctrl key with caps key with an ~/.xmodmap file that works on my Gentoo laptop, but not on my Devuan desktop for some reason: |
| 00:57.00 | Wafficus | https://termbin.com/jp28 |
| 00:57.08 | Wafficus | that is my current ~/.xmodmap |
| 00:57.15 | Wafficus | is this controlled somewhere else on Devuan? |
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| 01:13.51 | rwp | Wafficus, Confirm that you are activating it with "xmodmap ~/.xmodmap" ?? |
| 01:15.31 | rwp | Wafficus, I am doing a similar thing but a little differently. https://termbin.com/q1un |
| 01:16.27 | Wafficus | rwp: I didn't try xmodmap ~/.xmodmap |
| 01:16.30 | Wafficus | I'll try that real quick |
| 01:16.55 | rwp | Sorry, this one is probably the better one: https://termbin.com/r6af |
| 01:17.15 | rwp | That turns Capslock into left Control, and left control into Escape. |
| 01:17.54 | rwp | The first one is from my Thinkpad laptop keyboard and is also turning one of the keys into Super_L aka mod4 for use with i3. |
| 01:18.06 | rwp | The second one is from my desktop with the standard ANSI keyboard. |
| 01:19.12 | rwp | Additionally I actually set up my keyboard using this command set. https://termbin.com/ndxd |
| 01:20.11 | rwp | I start with the "setxkbmap" to set my compose key and also Control-Alt-Backspace enables Zap again. Then adjust with the xmodmap the left Control and Escape. |
| 01:20.54 | rwp | Finishing up by speeding up the autorepeat rate to something I like using better. The default is so slow! After you try the slightly faster autorepeat you won't want the default! :-) |
| 01:21.50 | rwp | Wafficus, Are you using a Desktop Environment? Which one? Or a simpler Window Manager? Which one? |
| 01:22.36 | rwp | I am using a window manager only, i3 for me, and it does not load .xmodmap for me but I must run those commands myself. |
| 01:22.57 | rwp | Probably the best universal location is the ~/.xsessionrc file. Place commands to run there. |
| 01:24.12 | rwp | The ~/.xsessionrc file is sourced by the /etc/X11/Xsession script, which is a #!/bin/sh script, meaning use only portable /bin/sh shell there, no bash-isms! |
| 01:24.23 | Wafficus | rwp: yep that did it |
| 01:24.32 | Wafficus | the single xmodmap ~/.xmodmap command rather |
| 01:24.39 | rwp | Good enough! |
| 01:24.44 | Wafficus | now I probably have to just modify an ~/.xinitrc for now |
| 01:25.08 | rwp | I am also using ~/.xinitrc file but so few people do that I always ask first. :-) |
| 01:25.54 | rwp | So to confirm you are NOT using lightdm or other xdm graphical login manager, but are logging into the text console and then running either "xinit" or "startx"? |
| 01:26.31 | Wafficus | I am using lightdm to login for this particular computer ys |
| 01:26.34 | Wafficus | yes |
| 01:26.38 | Wafficus | (on my gentoo laptop, i use startx) |
| 01:26.51 | Wafficus | this is my Devuan "Just Works" desktop |
| 01:27.07 | rwp | If using startx then it will look for and find ~/.xinirc but if using lightdm then it won't but will look for a ~/.xsessionrc file instead. |
| 01:28.59 | Wafficus | gotcha, I'll have to check with a reboot |
| 01:29.05 | rwp | One of these days I am going to walk through all of the control paths in all of the start scripts and try to document all of the many possible paths through everything. |
| 01:29.44 | rwp | Both /etc/X11/Xsession and /usr/bin/startx are simple scripts and so if you have any questions feel free to browse the scripts to see what they do. |
| 01:31.42 | rwp | And just for more distraction there is also ~/.xsession which must be a shell script but may be a bash script but is always a separate process so cannot set environment variables. |
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| 01:39.51 | Wafficus | yeah after restarting it didn't work unfortunately |
| 01:39.56 | Wafficus | so it must be an Xsession idea in that case |
| 01:43.41 | rwp | If you are using lightdm then that is started from Xsession which uses the ~/.xsessionrc file. |
| 01:44.06 | rwp | Testing would not require a reboot but simply logging out of X and the logging back in again. |
| 01:45.26 | Wafficus | gotcha |
| 01:45.49 | Wafficus | will make a ~/.xsessionrc file that literally just has "xmodmap ~/.xmodmap" |
| 01:45.49 | Wafficus | then just log out and see if that does it |
| 01:46.54 | rwp | I am pretty sure that in the different Desktop Environments some automatically detect and load a .xmodmap file and some do not. |
| 01:47.05 | rwp | But it is safe to load it twice if you switch to one that does it automatically. |
| 01:47.20 | Wafficus | gotcha good to know |
| 01:47.24 | Wafficus | will log out and come back one sec |
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| 01:53.31 | Wafficus | yep that worked |
| 01:53.33 | Wafficus | thanks rgh[m] |
| 01:53.35 | Wafficus | rwp: * |
| 01:54.53 | rwp | You are most welcome! :-) |
| 01:56.35 | rwp | Honestly I don't know why the DE authors make doing customizations so difficult. But they do. |
| 01:56.55 | Wafficus | I don't do it too often these days. I was in a big rush to do stuff like that when I was into AwesomeWM |
| 01:57.00 | rwp | Take PATH for example. That ~/.xsessionrc file is also the right place to set a customized PATH if you wish to have $HOME/bin in it for example. |
| 01:57.11 | Wafficus | but ever since shifting to Emacs Window Manager on my Gentoo laptop, I stopped really tweaking stuff and just focusing on the core utils involved |
| 01:57.27 | systemdlete2 | during install, I get: dpkg-divert: warning: diverting file '/sbin/start-stop-daemon' from an Essential package with rename is dangerous, use --no-rename WARNING **: Configuring 'pkgsel' failed with error code 1 |
| 01:57.41 | rwp | I used awesome window manager but I hated it because of the way it did things. I am very much happier with i3 over awesome wm. |
| 01:57.48 | systemdlete2 | (and I don't recall doing anything that would rename something) |
| 01:58.15 | Wafficus | gotcha rwp yeah I stopped using Awesome, since Lua is terrible. Hated that language so much |
| 01:59.04 | rwp | I had other complaints about awesomewm but will ask systemdlete2 if there are any other messages around it that might clue us into the problem? |
| 01:59.05 | Wafficus | Elisp is just so nicer, especially with Emacs to boot. But yeah, the only DE's I've used on this box include Openbox and MATE. MATE is just more so if I want to record audio really quick, and Openbox + Tint2 for general surfing |
| 01:59.39 | Wafficus | systemdlete2: what type of computer are you installing Devuan onto? |
| 01:59.53 | Wafficus | also, what specific ISO did you use to install Devuan as well? |
| 02:00.04 | rwp | Wafficus, Are you using MATE with exwm? Is that what I am understanding? If so then that is probably why you are needing to load the .xmodmap explicitly. |
| 02:00.08 | ErRandir | what does /sbin/start-stop-daemon now point to? |
| 02:00.33 | systemdlete2 | Wafficus: It is a vbox VM. The install image is the 64bit net install |
| 02:00.44 | rwp | Hopefully /sbin/start-stop-daemon is a real executable program and not a symlink. |
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| 02:00.47 | systemdlete2 | I've restarted that step (package selection) |
| 02:00.52 | Wafficus | rwp: I have exwm tied to my config, so technically it does exist within MATE as well, but I'm not really using it for window management. I should actually tweak my config to not even use exwm on computers like this to be honest |
| 02:00.58 | rwp | But dpkg-divert will actually rename things and not symlink them. |
| 02:00.59 | Wafficus | systemdlete2: gotcha |
| 02:01.26 | systemdlete2 | rwp: I did not choose to symlink my bin and sbin directories, if that is related to your comment |
| 02:02.32 | rwp | systemdlete2, It is almost related because I would have asked that question next. :-) |
| 02:03.27 | systemdlete2 | :) |
| 02:03.28 | systemdlete2 | Than |
| 02:03.45 | systemdlete2 | ugh... more btrfs crap going on in my current VM... |
| 02:04.19 | systemdlete2 | The restart of pkgsel seems to be going well this time. Maybe it was a momentary glitch during downloading the packages. |
| 02:04.40 | systemdlete2 | (servers in the middle of updates? idk) |
| 02:05.03 | rwp | So... I grep through my system and I don't find any dpkg-divert commands for start-stop daemon: find /var/lib/dpkg/info -name '*.postinst' -exec grep dpkg-divert {} + |
| 02:06.03 | rwp | Therefore I think this is not something being done by a package postinst script. |
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| 02:08.45 | systemdlete2 | It is something being done, by and by, by some step of the install process. |
| 02:09.07 | systemdlete2 | It is good to know it is not a package post install error, though. |
| 02:09.30 | systemdlete2 | if this were a problem with the ISO or some software on the ISO, I think we'd know about it by now... |
| 02:09.40 | systemdlete2 | That is why I suspect it was something external. |
| 02:11.32 | rwp | Are you preseeding install answers externally? |
| 02:12.19 | rwp | I have been doing server installs (without Desktop Environment) and have not had any similar problem. |
| 02:12.33 | rwp | And here in real life I am being called away... |
| 02:19.04 | systemdlete2 | no |
| 02:19.39 | systemdlete2 | I do my installs face-to-face with the installer. |
| 02:19.54 | systemdlete2 | although, I admit, using an answers file makes sense. |
| 02:20.21 | systemdlete2 | that's how alpine and some others do it |
| 02:21.25 | systemdlete2 | interesting... the packages are done and I get that same error message in console 4. But the installer GUI seems to be happy this time. |
| 02:42.59 | rwp | systemdlete2, Which installer image did you use? Please say devuan_beowulf_3.1.1_amd64_netinstall.iso as that is most convenient for me. :-) |
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| 02:57.23 | rwp | systemdlete2, What options did you select at the "Software selection" step? The defaults? |
| 03:04.45 | rwp | systemdlete2, I am doing a test install using that ^^ installer with the default software selections. |
| 03:05.58 | systemdlete2 | yes, that was the iso I use |
| 03:06.28 | systemdlete2 | I disabled ssh and enabled console productivity tools |
| 03:07.14 | systemdlete2 | rwp: You might be wasting your time. I think it was more likely to be a problem with the package servers. It was a temporary glitch; I was able to complete the install after that. |
| 03:08.01 | rwp | I might be wasting machine cycles as the machine is running cranking on it. But there is little for me to do. |
| 03:08.38 | rwp | It's very quick to run through the installer and now it is simply cranking through things itself without any further attention from me. |
| 03:09.19 | systemdlete2 | as you like. Somehow I doubt you will encounter the same conditions I did, if my theory is accurate. |
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| 03:11.30 | systemdlete2 | otoh, maybe something has changed on the servers that could cause the problem. All I know is that, up to now, I have not encountered this problem. |
| 03:12.01 | systemdlete2 | And I've installed numerous systems with the same ISO, on about 3 hardware systems and multiple VMs. |
| 03:12.06 | rwp | It's one of those odd problems that is so specific that it seems impossible for it to be a simple glitch. |
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| 04:13.42 | fluffywolf | should I expect any issues installing devuan on a pentium mmx? a fairly small install with icewm, no major desktop stuff, of course. will firefox even run on a such a cpu these days? browsing might be hard. heh. |
| 04:14.12 | gnarface | i think it should work if you have swap |
| 04:14.45 | gnarface | it won't be very fast but there's things you can do to improve it, like use zram for swap if you have enough ram |
| 04:14.54 | gnarface | how much ram does it have? |
| 04:22.45 | fluffywolf | 160MB |
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| 04:23.03 | fluffywolf | I have a ssd for it, so it'll have fast swap. |
| 04:24.24 | gnarface | hmmm, zram is faster, and swap is hard on ssds, but maybe there is nothing to be done for it with only 160MB of ram |
| 04:24.44 | gnarface | with only 160MB of ram, i don't think "apt-get update" can complete unless you change a config field |
| 04:24.53 | fluffywolf | I just ebayed a replacement for my old mini laptop; been looking for one for a while. it's not very useful as a real machine, but it sure is cute. |
| 04:25.36 | fluffywolf | http://fw.bushytails.net/laptop02.jpg there's my old one. it's the same width as an atx case. |
| 04:25.42 | gnarface | theoretically the kernel i think should boot with anything that is at least pentium1 or later? |
| 04:25.58 | fluffywolf | https://imgur.com/E4jE5N1 someone else's "look how tiny and cute it is" picture. |
| 04:26.32 | gnarface | trackball, i like it |
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| 04:27.56 | systemdlete2 | rwp: Sorry, I nearly forgot this, but I am using encryption on a portion of the disk image |
| 04:28.27 | rwp | systemdlete2, My test installation finished with no problems of any sort. |
| 04:28.31 | systemdlete2 | and lvm |
| 04:28.55 | fluffywolf | for scale, that's an 8" diagonal LCD. |
| 04:29.04 | systemdlete2 | rwp: did you use encrypted fs at all? |
| 04:29.08 | fluffywolf | it's about 1.5 times the size of a cd jewel case. |
| 04:29.13 | systemdlete2 | rwp: did you use lvm? |
| 04:29.22 | systemdlete2 | those might point to a different result, but idk |
| 04:29.26 | systemdlete2 | I don't see why |
| 04:29.28 | rwp | fluffywolf, I think with only 160MB it will be hard to run any current web browser. X should run though. |
| 04:29.58 | fluffywolf | downside: it's not easy to type on when you have big paws. :) |
| 04:30.57 | rwp | systemdlete2, I did not install LVM on this test image. But if it is encrypted then that would dictate using LVM so only the PV needs to be unlocked. |
| 04:31.00 | fluffywolf | my old one is a p-mmx 133, 80mb max ram. the new one I just got is a p-mmx 266 with 160mb ram. double the specs! |
| 04:31.01 | gnarface | oh... what is the video chip? x will run unless it has one of those cirrus logic video cards |
| 04:31.15 | gnarface | they removed the cirrus logic driver at some point before beowulf |
| 04:31.23 | gnarface | super annoying |
| 04:31.37 | fluffywolf | neomagic. |
| 04:31.51 | rwp | Which Neomagic? One is terrible and the other less terrible. |
| 04:31.52 | gnarface | oh cool, you're probably in luck |
| 04:31.57 | fluffywolf | it's an entirely useless machine, other than the cuteness factor. |
| 04:32.00 | gnarface | at least the neomagic driver is still in the repo |
| 04:32.10 | fluffywolf | nm2160 |
| 04:32.35 | rwp | I guess my old AMD 233MHz machine with the Neomagic driver was before there was a free driver for it. I had endless difficulties about it. |
| 04:33.08 | fluffywolf | it's a machine that never really caught on... it's a full laptop. two pcmcia slots and everything. decent specs for when it was made. but teeny tiny. |
| 04:33.11 | gnarface | i could imagine it's an old enough driver you might run into problems with compositing window managers |
| 04:33.31 | fluffywolf | I use icewm on everything; it has very minimal hardware requirements. |
| 04:34.20 | fluffywolf | if I rebuild the battery pack with modern cells, it'll run for like two days. :) |
| 04:34.47 | fluffywolf | I rebuilt the one for my older model, but I used chinese cells that I had handy, and one shorted after a whole two cycles. china. |
| 04:35.07 | fluffywolf | this one will get genuine panasonic made-in-japan cells. |
| 04:35.22 | iv4nshm4k0v | ? Pentium MMX? Wasn't the support for that dropped sometime around 2015? |
| 04:36.04 | gnarface | i'm kinda jealous. that'll be a neat machine once it is all retrofitted |
| 04:36.15 | gnarface | i thought it was just stuff before the pentium but i could be wrong |
| 04:36.50 | gnarface | if you have to rebuild the kernel that will be annoying |
| 04:38.18 | fluffywolf | I'll have to use another box for the install, as I'm not installing from floppies. :P |
| 04:38.37 | fluffywolf | and from what I've heard, it can't do usb cd-rom usefully. |
| 04:39.07 | gnarface | it has a usb port but won't support iso cdroms through it? |
| 04:39.30 | gnarface | you might be able to still format a USB key as a 100MB ATAPI floppy |
| 04:39.47 | gnarface | actually i think it might support up to 200 or 250MB that way |
| 04:39.49 | fluffywolf | it doesn't have usb boot |
| 04:39.50 | gnarface | in theory anyway |
| 04:39.50 | iv4nshm4k0v | gnarface: Not just the kernel, unfortunately: pretty much everything 'i386' is built with CPU set to i686 in Debian these days. (IIRC, that is.) |
| 04:39.56 | fluffywolf | or usb floppy support for that matter |
| 04:40.28 | gnarface | fluffywolf: sometimes it is non-obvious until you actually put a floppy-formatted usb key in |
| 04:40.41 | fluffywolf | https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch02s01.en.html#idm272 "Debian GNU/Linux buster will not run on 586 (Pentium) or earlier processors. " blah |
| 04:40.50 | gnarface | lame :( |
| 04:41.02 | fluffywolf | usb was a late addition to it, and from what I've heard, the bios pretty much doesn't consider usb to exist - it's just a controller chip the OS can use. |
| 04:41.08 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 04:41.33 | fluffywolf | I don't even have the official floppy drive that will work with it, if I wanted to try from floppies. heh. |
| 04:41.41 | systemdlete2 | rwp: let me explain my config. I have a 20gb virtual vbox disk. I 2 large partitions and 1 tiny one, in a gpt scheme. The tiny one is for the uefi bios, and one of the large ones is encrypted, one not. Then, each large partition is a lvm volume. /boot and /usr are unencrypted, everything else encrypted. This is not a call for anyone here to deride my choices; I need this for what I am doing; end. |
| 04:41.45 | fluffywolf | much easier to put the drive in another box with modern usb support. |
| 04:41.58 | gnarface | yea, i guess so probably |
| 04:42.17 | iv4nshm4k0v | seeds NetBSD-9.1-i386.iso via Bittorrent, which is claimed to support i486+ |
| 04:42.57 | systemdlete2 | rwp: Guess what? I'm redoing this exercise, because I had /boot on the encrypted partition the first time. And guess what -- I get the same error as the first time. |
| 04:43.15 | systemdlete2 | (oops, didn't mean to say "guess what" twice!) |
| 04:43.58 | fluffywolf | "Debian GNU/Linux stretch will not run on 586 (Pentium) or earlier processors. " bah. |
| 04:44.35 | gnarface | openbsd? |
| 04:45.11 | fluffywolf | "Debian GNU/Linux jessie will not run on 486 or earlier processors. " "Nearly all x86-based (IA-32) processors still in use in personal computers are supported, including all varieties of Intel's "Pentium" series." |
| 04:45.17 | fluffywolf | looks like it'll have to run jessie. |
| 04:45.19 | iv4nshm4k0v | gnarface: Of BSDs, only NetBSD seem to support devmapper / LVM, which makes the others no-go for me. |
| 04:45.29 | fluffywolf | this is why I asked if there would be issues installing devuan. lol |
| 04:45.57 | iv4nshm4k0v | fluffywolf: Yep, that matches what I remember. Unfortunately, Jessie had the worst Bash issues I ever seen on Debian. |
| 04:45.57 | gnarface | quite disappointing they've thrown out support for pentiums |
| 04:46.02 | systemdlete2 | rwp: And, like the first time I did this, repeating the tasksel part identical to the failed attempt completes the install. |
| 04:46.13 | gnarface | i'm sure you could still get beowulf to run on it, it just means you'd have to rebuild everything |
| 04:46.29 | systemdlete2 | waves at gnarface o/ |
| 04:46.39 | fluffywolf | "just". |
| 04:46.42 | systemdlete2 | (just saying hi) |
| 04:47.17 | iv4nshm4k0v | gnarface: Wouldnât that be a tad Gentoo-like, though? |
| 04:47.33 | fluffywolf | realisticly, with the horsepower it has, or the lack thereof, most latest-and-greatest software won't be usable anyway. |
| 04:48.44 | fluffywolf | oh well, bbl, wolfy bedtime |
| 04:48.56 | gnarface | heh, yea it would definitely be something gentoo makes easier to do |
| 04:50.28 | fluffywolf | https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2016/05/msg00001.html |
| 04:51.48 | fluffywolf | bbl |
| 04:57.06 | iv4nshm4k0v | I myself have several older boxen that Iâd like to put to use. From my limited experience, NetBSD (with pkgsrc) seem like a good enough system for my uses (which is to say, an assortment of network clients and debugging and development tools; SSH, Lynx, Neomutt, tcpdump, GCC for several targets, Perl, Tcl, etc.) |
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| 05:50.28 | rwp | systemdlete2, Yes, having /boot encrypted does make it harder to use. :-) But sounds like you have things figured out now. So all good! :-) |
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| 07:03.21 | systemdlete2 | what does this mean? Could not connect to wicd's D-Bus interface. Check the wicd log for error messages |
| 07:03.34 | systemdlete2 | I don't see anything in the log that stands out for me. |
| 07:04.11 | systemdlete2 | wicd is running... |
| 07:04.32 | systemdlete2 | this is on beowulf with xfce |
| 07:16.06 | lts- | systemdlete2: you should check your dbus as well |
| 07:20.51 | systemdlete2 | dbus is running, but I think I see the problem: The /etc/network/interfaces file has eth0 configured, so it is probably competing with wicd. I have disabled wicd in my session startup since I really don't need it anyway. |
| 07:21.21 | systemdlete2 | That said, it might be a good idea if the user were prompted somehow during install as to which way they want to configure their internet |
| 07:21.28 | systemdlete2 | And THAT said... |
| 07:21.36 | systemdlete2 | It goes back to debian, I know, I know... |
| 07:22.05 | systemdlete2 | (along with 10,000 other things that need attention, regardless of whether we are talking about debian or devuan) |
| 07:22.14 | lts- | AFAIK wicd is a python2 package anyway, so building on it may not last long |
| 07:22.24 | systemdlete2 | "building on it?" |
| 07:22.33 | systemdlete2 | I didn't build anything. |
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| 07:22.42 | lts- | Meaning, "building a system relying on wicd" |
| 07:23.17 | systemdlete2 | lts-: Everything I installed is stock, straight out of repos. I have not done much in the way of real customization other than configuring the desktop and adding/removing some software |
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| 08:37.10 | deva | Is there an (semi)automated way of upgrading from jessie to beowulf? |
| 08:37.48 | ShorTie | i'd do a new install personaly |
| 08:38.01 | deva | This is exactly what I would like to avoid ;) |
| 08:38.55 | ShorTie | i understand, but that is best imho |
| 08:39.51 | gnu_srs1 | deva: I don't think upgrading would be troublsome? apt-get update;apt-get upgrade;apt-get dist-upgrade |
| 08:40.26 | ShorTie | make a backup 1st |
| 08:40.44 | gnu_srs1 | Sorry, you have to do jessie->ascii->beowulf for best upgrade. |
| 08:40.53 | deva | gnu_srs1, Assuming that I alter the sources.list to point to beowulf first? |
| 08:41.37 | gnu_srs1 | yes after changing to and upgrading to ascii first. |
| 08:42.04 | deva | ok, thanks. I'll give it a try :-) |
| 08:42.20 | deva | ShorTie, And you are of course absolutely right that a backup first is crucial |
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| 10:25.31 | Walex | Linus Torvalds wrote that real men don't do backups: they uploads their projects to the web and the rest of the world makes copies for them :-) |
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| 11:27.50 | deva | ShorTie, gnu_srs1, The upgrade went smoothly. Thank you for your help :-) |
| 11:28.05 | ShorTie | Cool |
| 11:28.14 | gnu_srs1 | :) |
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| 16:05.58 | Xenguy | re: connman: IIUC, connman detected 2 nameserver settings from my router. I was able to manually override this, and set it back to 127.0.0.1 |
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| 16:18.19 | liberage | hey everyone, i recently started to have this strange fascination with the world of debian. But i'm not a huge fan of sysd either |
| 16:18.47 | liberage | is there a way i could migrate from archlinux to devuan without too much of a hassle (i already split my /home to a partition) |
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| 16:21.34 | lts- | Personally I consider full wipe and new install to be the least hassle. Take full backups first, restore your home and relevant /etc configs, then restore if anything else needs to be restored |
| 16:21.38 | lts- | YMMV |
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| 16:22.33 | Night_H4nter | @liberage Don't do that. |
| 16:22.47 | liberage | *visible confusion* |
| 16:22.48 | Night_H4nter | It's a major pain in the ass. |
| 16:23.45 | Night_H4nter | Just make the backups for everything you care about, and perform a "clean" (if one can say this about debian-like installation) install. |
| 16:24.52 | liberage | Well... i really care about my application's configs because i don't wanna spend reconfiguring everything from the ground up |
| 16:25.16 | lts- | This sounds like you don't have backups :-) |
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| 16:25.35 | liberage | For the backups; don't worry i learned the hard way. My main drive wiped itself clean a few weeks ago |
| 16:25.56 | liberage | i procrastinated re-setting up auto-backups until... well... you can imagine. |
| 16:26.12 | liberage | Thankfully syncthing and nextcloud were really helpful |
| 16:26.46 | liberage | Now i run vorta and deja-dup. I also run a full disk image every now and then. |
| 16:27.12 | onefang | Sounds like you have done the first and second steps - make backups, restore from them to check they work. |
| 16:27.18 | Night_H4nter | Keep in mind half of your configs might break upon migradtion. |
| 16:27.59 | Night_H4nter | Especially KDE stuff. |
| 16:28.07 | Night_H4nter | Not sure about others though. |
| 16:28.10 | liberage | Well that sucks. Guess i'll stay on the arch boat until SHTF or i get tired of it. |
| 16:28.13 | liberage | i'm on xfce |
| 16:28.40 | liberage | though i use arc-gtk-theme, steam, fish, etc.. |
| 16:28.55 | onefang | That's mostly a case of "different versions of software change the way their configs work sometimes". |
| 16:29.32 | onefang | I'm particularly annoyed at tmux doing that. There is always some config option that changed enough for it to throw errors after an upgrade. |
| 16:30.11 | liberage | i also wanted to ask; sometimes when i try to get a package on debian/devuan, the package name is different when compared to i.e. archlinux. While i understand that this is totally normal, how do i find said package? |
| 16:30.32 | liberage | other than apt search, of course. |
| 16:32.04 | Night_H4nter | Ig you just search. Debian (and, consequently, Devuan) has some stuff, which I can't recall the name of, that is doing some substitution, but I don't think it's that helpful. |
| 16:32.46 | onefang | We have a web page for searching packages. I can't recall it off the top of my head. |
| 16:32.50 | liberage | Aptitude? |
| 16:33.15 | gnarface | you can do regexp searches |
| 16:33.24 | Night_H4nter | Build systems tend to do similar stuff, but not the package managers. |
| 16:33.41 | Night_H4nter | So you should mostly rely on regex search. |
| 16:33.54 | liberage | moreover on packages; if when i'm unfortunate enough that a package isn't in the repos, am i forced to compile it from source? if so how do i avoid resolving the deps myself? |
| 16:34.21 | gnarface | any good source will already have a ./debian/ directory |
| 16:34.22 | onefang | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html |
| 16:34.26 | gnarface | otherwise you're gonna have to learn how to add it |
| 16:35.10 | Night_H4nter | Btw, while I'm here and the chat is alive (maybe even some ov devs are here?), what do you guys think about doing s6/s6-rc init? |
| 16:35.18 | Night_H4nter | Is there any chance it will be supported? |
| 16:35.52 | onefang | I think it is already. |
| 16:35.55 | gnarface | it's already supported |
| 16:35.58 | Night_H4nter | It's not even in repos. |
| 16:36.03 | Night_H4nter | s6 is. |
| 16:36.08 | Night_H4nter | No other tools. |
| 16:36.17 | gnarface | hmmm |
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| 16:36.24 | Night_H4nter | No s6-rc, no linux/portable utils, no init. |
| 16:36.46 | gnarface | chances of them appearing in devuan if they get accepted by debian are close to 100% |
| 16:36.54 | Night_H4nter | Oh... |
| 16:36.54 | liberage | Is backports on devuan testing a sensible thing? |
| 16:36.57 | Night_H4nter | Debian. |
| 16:37.08 | Night_H4nter | ... |
| 16:37.14 | gnarface | liberage: no, nonsensical |
| 16:37.21 | Night_H4nter | Then ig it never happens. |
| 16:37.25 | liberage | Same for debian i imagine. |
| 16:37.34 | liberage | gnarface, |
| 16:37.41 | Night_H4nter | Not in the foreseeble future, at least. |
| 16:37.48 | gnarface | liberage: yes, there's only backports for stable |
| 16:38.00 | liberage | Got it, thanks. |
| 16:38.06 | Night_H4nter | Like I really, really don't wanna use artix just because it has the init I like. Hell. |
| 16:38.29 | Night_H4nter | If things keep going this way, I'll end up on nixos/guixsd. |
| 16:38.35 | gnarface | Night_H4nter: i'm sure you could build it yourself. why isn't debian accepting it? it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me unless they replaced it with something else |
| 16:39.22 | gnarface | Night_H4nter: for that matter, are you sure it's not just all in the same package? |
| 16:40.10 | Night_H4nter | w8 |
| 16:40.13 | Night_H4nter | I hope it's not. |
| 16:40.24 | buZz | isnt artix a distro |
| 16:40.41 | buZz | oh, nevermind |
| 16:41.16 | Night_H4nter | ? |
| 16:42.12 | gnarface | there was other people using s6 here, maybe someone has the missing packages |
| 16:42.28 | gnarface | maybe it's like debian's openrc build that relies on sysvinit for startup and shutdown |
| 16:42.41 | gnarface | maybe it's as easy to replace with whatever you're used to |
| 16:43.04 | Night_H4nter | Debian used to have a file list on the package page. |
| 16:43.20 | Night_H4nter | Can't find it now. |
| 16:43.26 | onefang | That search page I posted, shows the file list. |
| 16:43.36 | onefang | Try it. |
| 16:44.09 | buZz | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/package-query.html?c=package&q=s6=2.7.2.2-3 |
| 16:44.11 | buZz | quite some files |
| 16:44.32 | Night_H4nter | Oh, thanks. |
| 16:45.20 | Night_H4nter | As I said, this is just s6 alone. |
| 16:45.24 | Night_H4nter | Nothing else. |
| 16:45.36 | buZz | what else is there? |
| 16:46.00 | gnarface | probably a replacement for sysv-rc? |
| 16:46.07 | gnarface | like the gentoo build of openrc has |
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| 16:47.41 | gnarface | Night_H4nter: to be clear, it probably works anyway. you know that right? it's fine if this is a matter of personal choice. |
| 16:47.59 | gnarface | it's just more work for you. |
| 16:48.13 | Night_H4nter | @gnarface What are you talking about? |
| 16:48.25 | gnarface | the s6 package in the repo, it probably still works |
| 16:48.35 | Night_H4nter | I never said it doesn't. |
| 16:48.59 | gnarface | just making sure. i can understand you not wanting to use it if it relies on sysv parts. i just didn't want you to think it's just gutted |
| 16:49.32 | Night_H4nter | I said it's not enough to build a proper system on it. |
| 16:49.52 | gnarface | is it really that hard to compile the missing part? |
| 16:49.57 | Night_H4nter | Like good luck compiling all other tools, then writinig your own scripts for everything, etc. |
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| 16:53.28 | liberage | it's really a shame that Nix doesn't let you choose your preferred init, given that it's considered to be a "1337 h4x0r" distro (not newbie friendly) |
| 16:53.58 | liberage | i don't hate systemd but i also think that something like OpenRC could replace it any day. |
| 16:55.52 | Night_H4nter | @liberage OpenRC? Doubt it. But the problem is that nobody wants to do anything for it, as it seems, most of nix users don't particularly care about what's going on under the hood. |
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| 16:56.14 | Night_H4nter | Just edit the system config file, rebuild reboot. |
| 16:58.04 | liberage | idk, i really found openrc comfortable and intuitive. |
| 16:59.13 | Night_H4nter | IIRC OpenRC will need a dozen other packages to, at least, match s6 suite functionality. |
| 17:00.28 | Night_H4nter | And several tens of packages to match that of systemd. |
| 17:01.46 | tuxd3v | systemd is a monter is size... it is not a init system only.. |
| 17:02.31 | tuxd3v | for the Images I saw till now, systemd uses a lot more ram than what people think.. |
| 17:03.42 | fsmithred | last I heard about s6, development was slow. We plan to support it when it's ready. |
| 17:04.09 | fsmithred | liberage, devuan installer does give you a choice of init systems. sysv, openrc or runit |
| 17:04.22 | gnarface | oh it's got runit now? |
| 17:04.24 | gnarface | cool |
| 17:04.26 | Xenguy | Meanwhile I've been under a rock, and just now reading about this /usr merge stuff... |
| 17:04.33 | Xenguy | e.g. https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ |
| 17:04.37 | Night_H4nter | Idk what you mean by "ready", but it's now perfectly usable. |
| 17:04.56 | Xenguy | Not sure what to think, some kind of corporate-think here, or ...? |
| 17:05.46 | liberage | fsmithred, i know, i was talking about NixOS |
| 17:06.02 | Night_H4nter | @tuxd3v It uses more memory, though, not enough to become a concern anywhere except embedded/iot applications... |
| 17:06.06 | Night_H4nter | Oh, wait... |
| 17:06.08 | Night_H4nter | kek |
| 17:06.42 | Night_H4nter | But jokes aside, the concern on dekstop/server is not the ram consumption, but the actual code quality. |
| 17:07.49 | Night_H4nter | Also don't forget systemd isn't just an init. |
| 17:08.45 | tuxd3v | Night_H4nter, you right it isn't just a init, but a hog monster.. |
| 17:09.34 | Night_H4nter | It's a "system layer". Basically an API. |
| 17:09.46 | Night_H4nter | **Bad** API. |
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| 17:11.41 | liberage | Night_H4nter, yeah why the hell does sysd have to be a login manager, boot loader, and whatever else? |
| 17:11.54 | liberage | PID 1 should be PID 1. full stop. |
| 17:13.51 | tuxd3v | Xenguy, yeah there are a initiative to merge, Essential Binaries + System Binaries in /usr.. |
| 17:16.21 | Xenguy | tuxd3v, I can't tell whether that's a bad idea or not, hrm |
| 17:21.13 | tuxd3v | Xenguy, the issue for me , is that they will mix binaries of all species together..but I don't know if it will have further aproval by other distributions.. |
| 17:21.42 | Xenguy | Fedora started this apparently |
| 17:56.36 | Night_H4nter | @liberage It's not only a pid1. |
| 17:56.43 | Night_H4nter | It's a huge suite of applications. |
| 17:56.50 | Night_H4nter | Don't call systemd an init system. |
| 17:57.33 | onefang | Personally I call systemd "something to be discussed in #devuan-offtopic, not here". B-) |
| 18:03.01 | MinceR | hopefully you don't refer to it that way in #devuan-offtopic :> |
| 18:13.46 | Night_H4nter | kek |
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