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| 00:42.07 | golinux | mason |
| 00:42.15 | golinux | oops. |
| 01:01.36 | azot | I've heard a sentiment that it is quite hard to modify the growing number of software packages that are becoming more and more systemd specific. |
| 01:01.45 | azot | I wonder, how true has this been in your experience? |
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| 01:48.10 | mason | azot: The only software growing that sort of dependency ends up being stuff I don't run. |
| 01:51.07 | azot | mason, I actually have a whole desktop system (no gnome / kde) built from pkgsrc, without dbus and systemd. |
| 01:51.16 | azot | I wonder, what software *does* require systemd? |
| 01:53.07 | Xenguy | I suppose it's the same packages that Devuan has forked? |
| 01:55.52 | DashiePie | azot: just wait, everything will be hard-dependant... as much as none of us want that |
| 01:56.31 | azot | Xenguy, Ok. Is there a list of those available? |
| 01:56.39 | azot | DashiePie, Hard dependant on what? Systemd? |
| 01:56.58 | DashiePie | yes, but I'll stop now, since my tangent is what offtopic is for |
| 01:57.52 | Xenguy | azot: I think this is the one: http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt |
| 01:58.23 | onefang | That and https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/libsystemd.txt |
| 01:58.52 | azot | DashiePie, Could you please speak in complete sentences. I don't understand what you are attempting to communicate. Also, I do not appreciate your threats; could you please act in a more civil and intelligent manner? |
| 01:59.30 | azot | Xenguy, Thank you. That's what I was looking for. |
| 01:59.42 | azot | onefang, TY |
| 02:00.33 | azot | Weird. Is wayland *really* dependent on systemd? I wanted to give it a try .... |
| 02:00.45 | azot | And *tor*?! |
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| 02:05.16 | DHE | what I never understood is... since bsd is not systemd-capable, doesn't that mean none of these packages would run on bsd? |
| 02:06.23 | Xenguy | systemd dropped POSIX, that is clear |
| 02:06.50 | Xenguy | Maybe systemd doesn't affect that at all? Dunno |
| 02:28.59 | azot | https://github.com/NetBSD/pkgsrc/blob/trunk/net/tor/Makefile |
| 02:29.43 | azot | https://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/current/pkgsrc/net/tor/README.html |
| 02:30.05 | azot | Thus, it is apparent that package could somehow be made to work w/o systemd. |
| 02:30.27 | azot | Yet, Debian does list libsystemd0 as a dependency. |
| 02:33.53 | gnarface | different people doing the work, different people paying for the work |
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| 02:36.23 | sgage | I do believe that a program can be compiled to require systemd or not, |
| 02:36.58 | sgage | and a package can be created that invokes systemd as a dependency, or not. |
| 02:44.57 | sgage | I suppose there are some programs written to require systemd as a hard dependency. |
| 02:45.06 | sgage | Shame on them. |
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| 02:45.29 | onefang | That's what the banned package list is for. |
| 02:45.44 | gnarface | most of those aren't really the problem, the problem is when they're removing stuff that already works because they don't use it |
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| 02:45.58 | sgage | Right, and it keeps changing. |
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| 03:01.52 | Xenguy | Don't break userspace |
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| 03:08.02 | b33fmuff | hi i wanna try out chimaera but i dont see any download links for it on the site, unless im blind and missing something? or is there a special way to get it? |
| 03:09.30 | golinux | b33fmuff: You have to upgrade from beowulf. There are no official isos yet. |
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| 03:09.54 | gnarface | that is usually the same situation in debian, too |
| 03:10.44 | b33fmuff | ok thanks |
| 03:11.24 | b33fmuff | nah i actually just checked before asking because i was curious as well, and debian does have bulleye available as an iso |
| 03:13.59 | golinux | At some point we will have a beta . . . |
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| 03:14.55 | Xenguy | He's gone already, some cheese with that Sir? |
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| 09:23.27 | gnu_srs1 | (10:17:55 PM) srs: mason: fsmithred: svarze is not online any longer: But can you tell hen that we have transitional packages of udev and libudev1 depending on the corresponding eudev versions! |
| 09:24.24 | gnu_srs1 | Or are these transitional packages only available for ascii? |
| 09:24.30 | onefang | svarze still isn't online. |
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| 09:26.58 | onefang | Beowulf at least has libudev1 an a transitional package for libeudev1, and udev -> eudev. |
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| 09:56.00 | moriton | libapt-pkg-perl : Depends: libapt-pkg6.0 (>= 2.1.20) but 2.1.18+devuan1 is to be installed |
| 09:56.03 | moriton | (chimaera) |
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| 10:07.23 | JackFrost | Yeah noticed and asked about that on Saturday or Friday, apt is out of date and hasn't been merged still. |
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| 16:21.55 | Junicchi | my pc completely froozes sometimes, i lived that problem on debian too before switching to devuan |
| 16:22.22 | Junicchi | not sure if it's my hardware but is there any known problem or solution related to this issue? |
| 16:23.00 | tuxd3v | Junicchi, do you use Nvidia hraphics? |
| 16:23.05 | tuxd3v | graphics |
| 16:23.16 | Junicchi | yep |
| 16:23.29 | tuxd3v | welcome to the club |
| 16:23.45 | tuxd3v | you are in i686 or amd64? |
| 16:23.46 | Junicchi | x3 |
| 16:23.49 | Junicchi | amd64 |
| 16:23.58 | Junicchi | ryzen5 + gtx 1050ti |
| 16:24.04 | tuxd3v | it hapens a lot of times? |
| 16:24.12 | Junicchi | yes |
| 16:24.20 | Junicchi | just happens randomly |
| 16:24.38 | tuxd3v | but only when you are on youtube right? |
| 16:24.43 | tuxd3v | ramdomly?? |
| 16:25.32 | Junicchi | i mean sometimes it happens even ram usage is very low and sometimes no problem on high load |
| 16:26.08 | Junicchi | period is sometimes 2 hours sometimes 30 minutes |
| 16:26.10 | tuxd3v | but it hapens when you are using some application, in specific? |
| 16:26.38 | Junicchi | most of the time it's happening while i'm on firefox |
| 16:26.47 | tuxd3v | right |
| 16:26.56 | tuxd3v | I am also on firefox |
| 16:27.26 | tuxd3v | but what triggers for me the problem is the youtube videos |
| 16:27.53 | Junicchi | does it happen right after you visit youtube? |
| 16:28.10 | Junicchi | or takes a while and crashes at random time |
| 16:28.45 | Junicchi | i can't be sure if the problem is firefox because i don't use any other gui software |
| 16:28.51 | Junicchi | everything is cli |
| 16:28.52 | tuxd3v | its ramdom in time, but when you play youtube videos, I need to check if I am doing something serious on other apps, because Iknow the problem could be trigger any time soon |
| 16:29.01 | mason | Junicchi: netconsole could tell you what's happening, maybe. I'm not seeing detailed Debian docs, but: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Netconsole |
| 16:29.23 | Junicchi | thanks mason |
| 16:29.30 | Junicchi | the worst thing is this problem is hard to debug |
| 16:29.35 | mason | Junicchi: https://github.com/FastVPSEestiOu/debian_netconsole seems to still be alive |
| 16:29.43 | mason | Yeah, this'll help debug it. |
| 16:31.12 | tuxd3v | Junicchi, one thing that I noticed is that ising the free software nouveau driver, it hapens alot less, but a lot less, than using the Nvidia driver.. |
| 16:31.23 | tuxd3v | ising -> using |
| 16:32.41 | tuxd3v | but I have dual graphics, one is unused but is present its a intel gma |
| 16:33.17 | tuxd3v | If I take out the Nvidia card, and use only the iGPU graphics card, no problem.. |
| 16:34.14 | tuxd3v | I tried in the biosto disable the intel one, but it has no option to disable :/ |
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| 16:40.13 | Junicchi | 2 months ago i found a forum thread about the same issue |
| 16:40.30 | Junicchi | the solution they suggested was changing some parameters from grub |
| 16:40.42 | Junicchi | couldn't find the post again |
| 16:41.20 | tuxd3v | that would be very helpfull indeed, as I also face same problem |
| 16:41.23 | tuxd3v | :) |
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| 16:51.17 | Junicchi | tuxd3v: are there any performance differences with nvidia's own drivers and nouveau? |
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| 16:54.03 | tuxd3v | Junicchi, in games for sure it will be, also nouveau doesn't have 3d acceleration I believe, is done on cpu, but it works nicely. |
| 16:54.48 | tuxd3v | One test that you can make is exactly that, try out nouveau, and use firefox and videos, to try to trigger the issue, and compare.. |
| 16:55.36 | tuxd3v | or if you don't want to mess with your own setup, create a small partition aside from that and use only nouveau, and compare.. |
| 16:55.40 | tuxd3v | :) |
| 16:55.49 | tuxd3v | its what I have done :) |
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| 17:00.33 | Junicchi | i see |
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| 17:12.39 | jackman | i'd like to know about the implications of installing something like official docker in devuan. the problem that i've encountered in the past is that other debian packages (mongodb, docker, etc.) expect systemd to be installed, and therefore don't start up on boot properly. is there a workaround to use "native" systemd scripts with sysvinit? |
| 17:13.46 | jackman | https://docs.docker.com/engine/install/debian/ |
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| 17:14.45 | jackman | i've heard of a number of places with large deployments with devuan. because this is such prominant issue, i am hoping there is an easy way around it. |
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| 17:21.36 | jackman | well, just installed docker with the official repos |
| 17:21.39 | jackman | seems to be working |
| 17:21.46 | jackman | moot point there, i guess |
| 17:22.03 | jackman | mongodb didn't work that well the last time i tried |
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| 17:54.09 | sunshavi | TRS-80: are You going to put armbian on PP? |
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| 18:21.13 | jackman | FYI, docker swarm running just fine on Devuan Beowulf. |
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| 18:40.07 | CrystalMath | hi all, i have a question about the xserver-xorg package |
| 18:40.28 | CrystalMath | debian's default one is compiled --with-systemd-logind and depends on libsystemd0 |
| 18:40.35 | CrystalMath | is devuan replacing it with a version that doesn't? |
| 18:41.15 | golinux | Doesn't elogind solve that? |
| 18:41.39 | CrystalMath | i have libelogind0 |
| 18:41.46 | CrystalMath | so that satisfies the dependency? |
| 18:41.52 | golinux | Don't have the exact package names in memory |
| 18:42.29 | CrystalMath | that means i'll still have to use my altered package, because i run my system without dbus, and that causes xorg to constantly log errors |
| 18:42.37 | golinux | Maybe search on the forum or this list. |
| 18:42.48 | CrystalMath | oh well, thanks for answering my question anyway |
| 18:43.12 | golinux | Things have been a bit slow lately . . . |
| 18:49.48 | fsmithred | I run xorg without dbus |
| 18:50.20 | CrystalMath | fsmithred: is it logging errors every 10 seconds? check Xorg.0.log |
| 18:50.25 | fsmithred | I don't know if elogind is installed in that system. It's just a live-cd |
| 18:50.33 | fsmithred | I'll fire it up and look |
| 18:50.50 | CrystalMath | also make sure dbus is not running |
| 18:51.05 | fsmithred | dbus is not installed |
| 18:51.16 | fsmithred | and is pinned to -1 |
| 18:52.22 | fsmithred | CrystalMath, what errors are you getting? |
| 18:52.44 | CrystalMath | let me check the old logs, if they're still there |
| 18:52.52 | fsmithred | failed to connect to socket |
| 18:53.24 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:53.26 | CrystalMath | yeah |
| 18:53.30 | CrystalMath | constantly over and over |
| 18:54.25 | fsmithred | yeah, I'm tailing it |
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| 18:56.03 | fsmithred | I don't know a fix for that. |
| 18:56.12 | CrystalMath | i do |
| 18:56.28 | fsmithred | make the package not use dbus? |
| 18:56.43 | CrystalMath | you need to configure with --disable-systemd-logind --without-systemd-daemon |
| 18:56.59 | fsmithred | will that break stuff? |
| 18:57.15 | fsmithred | like shutdown/reboot from desktop? |
| 18:57.23 | CrystalMath | hmm.... maybe it breaks running X.org as non-root |
| 18:57.39 | fsmithred | also, how does removing systemd remove dbus? |
| 18:57.47 | CrystalMath | because X.org only uses dbus for logind |
| 18:57.57 | fsmithred | oh, that makes sense |
| 18:58.26 | fsmithred | is there an option to not use it? |
| 18:58.37 | CrystalMath | i found the offending code and it's related to the stuff about running X as non-root |
| 18:58.46 | CrystalMath | i found no runtime way in the code to avoid it, unfortunately |
| 18:59.06 | iv4nshm4k0v | FWIW, I wrote a simplistic Dbus "stub" server that listens to a socket and pretty much does nothing to satisfy X.org X server. |
| 18:59.13 | CrystalMath | but the code can be modified |
| 18:59.41 | CrystalMath | like maybe there could be a server option Option DBus False |
| 18:59.47 | CrystalMath | in /etc/X11/xorg.conf |
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| 19:00.01 | CrystalMath | i would have to file a bug report against X.org and provide that patch to them |
| 19:00.21 | CrystalMath | but really, simply packaging without logind support does the job, and i hate logind anyway |
| 19:00.28 | CrystalMath | i hate elogind too |
| 19:00.31 | CrystalMath | can't stand the sight of it |
| 19:00.41 | CrystalMath | but maybe i stand it a little better than libsystemd0 |
| 19:00.52 | iv4nshm4k0v | (Eli the Bearded has a copy of it in his Git repos.) |
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| 19:46.02 | fsmithred | iv4nshm4k0v, if you're up for packaging and maintaining it, we might be able to get it into the repo. |
| 19:54.51 | CrystalMath | fsmithred: perhaps devuan could make xserver-xorg-legacy a completely different xorg package, which is incompatible with xserver-xorg-core, and provides a setuid xorg server with no logind support |
| 19:55.11 | CrystalMath | basically, the old Xorg, in a package :) |
| 19:55.15 | fsmithred | that might work |
| 19:55.26 | fsmithred | but someone will have to step up to maintain it |
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| 20:06.32 | systemdlete | It seems that gnome-terminal needs to be a dependency of cinnamon. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/59867/i-cant-open-the-terminal-in-cinnamon |
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| 20:11.07 | mozhaaak | Hey, I'm trying to install old loki game on my amd64 beowulf system. How can I get libsdl1.2 i386 on there, I added "[arch=amd64,i386]" to apt/sources.list mirror line |
| 20:20.58 | iv4nshm4k0v | fsmithred: I'm afraid I haven't even managed to write any documentation for it in the few years since its first (and so far only) release. I'm going to guess that CrystalMath's patch will be done first. |
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| 20:23.22 | CrystalMath | iv4nshm4k0v: my patch kills non-legacy xorg, so i doubt it |
| 20:23.42 | CrystalMath | if applied, xorg will no longer run unless it's setuid root |
| 20:30.31 | fsmithred | as long as it's a choice for installing that, it should work. Only a few people will be using it. |
| 20:33.14 | iv4nshm4k0v | CrystalMath: I'm not sure I understand. First of all, there's a setuid root Xorg wrapper since forever, so the X server binary /itself/ doesn't have to be setuid root. Second, it's possible to run X server from a DM, such as Xdm, where DM presumably would hand all the necessary permissions. |
| 20:33.51 | CrystalMath | iv4nshm4k0v: my patch disables logind support in X.org, so it will *NOT* be able to run without the wrapper |
| 20:35.37 | iv4nshm4k0v | Third, when KMS is used, no 'root' is necessary in the first place: just permission to access files like /dev/fb0, /dev/drm/ and /dev/input/. Granted, the ACLs for these files can be amended with a Dbus-enabled server on request from the X server, but they can be amended /without/ just as well. |
| 20:35.51 | iv4nshm4k0v | CrystalMath: Finally, haven't you proposed a runtime option in the first place? |
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| 20:47.50 | iv4nshm4k0v | If anything, I never ran logind of any kind, and don't anticipate that changing anytime soon, so I'd hardly be affected by the change. My /dev/fb0 has group:xserver:rw- in its ACL, however, so setgid that would be sufficient. |
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| 21:57.18 | JTechno | hello folks |
| 21:57.51 | JTechno | I have this problem when running a program: "error while loading shared libraries: libpng12.so.0", I've installed libpng12 but the problem persists |
| 21:57.56 | JTechno | any idea? |
| 21:58.35 | fsmithred | that's old |
| 21:58.44 | gnarface | missing symlink? |
| 21:58.47 | fsmithred | replace with libpng16something |
| 21:59.05 | gnarface | ah, libpng16-16 |
| 21:59.10 | gnarface | probably |
| 21:59.20 | fsmithred | yeah, I think 12 is from jessie |
| 21:59.54 | gnarface | oh i remember that now |
| 22:00.03 | gnarface | JTechno: cruft, uninstall |
| 22:00.41 | gnarface | it appears to be libpng16-16 now |
| 22:00.53 | gnarface | for some reason there wasn't a clean upgrade |
| 22:01.23 | fsmithred | yeah, it also caused problems building slim |
| 22:01.48 | JTechno | I don't understand you |
| 22:01.54 | fsmithred | JTechno, which devuan are you running? |
| 22:02.07 | JTechno | beowulf |
| 22:02.18 | fsmithred | you should be using libpng16-16 |
| 22:02.30 | gnarface | JTechno: "apt-get update && apt-get install libpng16-16 && apt-get --purge remove libpng12-0" |
| 22:02.53 | JTechno | but I do need libpng12 |
| 22:02.59 | gnarface | actually the removing of libpng12 might not even be necessary, i still have it laying around here in some places |
| 22:02.59 | JTechno | it's for an old application |
| 22:03.16 | gnarface | see if they'll install concurrently for you, too |
| 22:03.27 | gnarface | i'm on ceres at the moment so i'm not sure you'll see the same thing |
| 22:03.40 | JTechno | I currently have both installed |
| 22:03.47 | gnarface | oh, hmmm |
| 22:03.53 | JTechno | libpng12 from jessie and 16 from beowulf |
| 22:04.05 | gnarface | try removing libpng12 temporarily anyway |
| 22:04.09 | JTechno | the problem is that the program still doesn't find it |
| 22:04.29 | fsmithred | program from outside the repo? |
| 22:04.30 | gnarface | did you try forcing it with LD_PRELOAD to see if it even can use it? |
| 22:04.41 | JTechno | yes, quartus II |
| 22:04.54 | JTechno | gnarface: how? |
| 22:05.00 | JTechno | can you please tell me |
| 22:05.40 | gnarface | JTechno: yes: LD_PRELOAD="/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libSDL2.0-2.0-whatever" emacs & |
| 22:05.58 | gnarface | that's just an example |
| 22:06.08 | gnarface | try to substitute your actual library path and program |
| 22:06.08 | JTechno | thank you I'm going to try |
| 22:06.30 | gnarface | sometimes it works on broken Steam games |
| 22:06.54 | gnarface | the stuff you get through the devuan repos should all work without this though, and if it doesn't you need to report it |
| 22:07.09 | gnarface | if it's something from outside the repo though you're on your own |
| 22:08.18 | JTechno | now I see the problem, it is expecting a 32 bit lib |
| 22:08.23 | gnarface | oh |
| 22:08.28 | JTechno | sorry to bother and thank you |
| 22:08.33 | gnarface | well that's easy to fix too |
| 22:08.36 | gnarface | just enable multi-arch |
| 22:08.50 | gnarface | then install the 32-bit version in parallel |
| 22:09.06 | JTechno | I'm going to try that |
| 22:09.07 | gnarface | should work fine, and you might not even need libpng12 after all |
| 22:10.08 | gnarface | (this is a problem that also frequently plagues Steam) |
| 22:10.47 | JTechno | now it works, thank you very much |
| 22:11.03 | gnarface | no problem |
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| 22:32.34 | mozhaaak | gnarface: Can you please tell me how do I enable multiarch? I have enabled i386 in dpkg and added [arch=amd64,i386] to repo line sources. I did an apt-get update, and I still don't have it |
| 22:33.26 | gnarface | mozhaaak: you shouldn't have had to change anything in your sources... though you would have had to apt-get update... |
| 22:34.16 | gnarface | mozhaaak: what does this tell you? dpkg --print-architecture && dpkg --print-foreign-architectures |
| 22:34.30 | mozhaaak | i386 |
| 22:34.49 | gnarface | mozhaaak: i386 only? |
| 22:34.56 | mozhaaak | 2nd one |
| 22:35.05 | gnarface | so it says: |
| 22:35.06 | gnarface | amd64 |
| 22:35.09 | gnarface | i386 |
| 22:35.12 | gnarface | like that? |
| 22:35.17 | gnarface | or only: |
| 22:35.19 | gnarface | i386 |
| 22:35.21 | gnarface | ??? |
| 22:35.28 | mozhaaak | yes amd64 then i386 |
| 22:35.33 | gnarface | ok |
| 22:35.36 | gnarface | paste.debian.net |
| 22:35.42 | gnarface | put your /etc/apt/sources.list here |
| 22:35.46 | gnarface | i will sanity check it fo ryou |
| 22:35.47 | gnarface | for you |
| 22:36.00 | gnarface | it's the only other place the problem can be |
| 22:36.09 | gnarface | well there or /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* |
| 22:40.13 | mozhaaak | gnarface: Here it is https://clbin.com/nEKBn |
| 22:40.20 | gnarface | mozhaaak: paste.debian.net, please |
| 22:44.49 | mozhaaak | gnarface: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1187925 |
| 22:45.56 | mozhaaak | gnarface: I was originaly using it with a usb stick iso |
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| 22:52.58 | mozhaaak | gnarface: what I tried is apt-get install libsdl1.2debian:i386, that's the package I need |
| 22:53.57 | daingun | Hi, after latest grub update, every boot leaves me in grub command line, the problem is described in the forum https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=4171 |
| 22:54.41 | daingun | Unfortunately even if downgrading grub packages every boot I see grub command line |
| 22:55.56 | daingun | What I found out is that the variable "prefix" on my grub installation is set to "prefix=(hd0,gpt1)/EFI/debian" |
| 22:56.28 | daingun | I need to set is manually every boot to "(hd0,gpt1)/efi/devuan" |
| 23:09.02 | gnarface | mozhaaak: yea, this is missing all kinds of stuff, stand by |
| 23:10.18 | gnarface | mozhaaak: use this instead https://paste.debian.net/1187928/ |
| 23:11.01 | gnarface | mozhaaak: dunnno about that [arch=amd64,i386] syntax... never seen that, not sure it's even valid, but you can't run with only the security patches, that's not a whole system |
| 23:11.24 | mozhaaak | gnarface: Thank you =) |
| 23:13.35 | gnarface | daingun: symlink or hardlink might work |
| 23:13.40 | gnarface | daingun: just guessing |
| 23:14.10 | gnarface | dunno why this would actually be like that, looks like a mistake or sabotage |
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| 23:15.21 | fsmithred | daingun, at grub command line: echo $prefix |
| 23:15.37 | fsmithred | it's probably looking for grub.cfg in EFI/debian |
| 23:16.26 | daingun | fsmithred: yes as I written the variable is EFI/debian |
| 23:16.49 | fsmithred | oh, sorry, I didn't scroll up enough |
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| 23:18.38 | fsmithred | I think you can get rid of grub-efi signed package if you don't need secure boot |
| 23:18.45 | fsmithred | and that alone might fix it. |
| 23:19.04 | daingun | I also tried to purge grub package and install the previous version, but the problem is still there and I lost devuan theme |
| 23:19.04 | fsmithred | if not, grub-install --bootloader-id=debian |
| 23:19.52 | fsmithred | the theme is set in /etc/default/grub |
| 23:21.13 | fsmithred | GRUB_THEME=/usr/share/desktop-base/grub-themes/desktop-grub-theme/theme.txt |
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| 23:30.49 | daingun | fsmithred: thank you for the support, I will try your suggestions tomorrow. |
| 23:33.12 | fsmithred | yw, good luck. |
| 23:33.19 | fsmithred | let me know what happens |
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