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| 01:01.51 | JohnGetTheCamera | so has anyone had issues compiling ungoogled-chromium |
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| 01:10.39 | gnarface | i haven't tried, but if have maybe i can help you decipher the compilation error |
| 01:10.45 | gnarface | if you have* |
| 01:10.57 | gnarface | don't paste the whole thing here |
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| 01:11.13 | gnarface | use paste.debian.net unless you can pick just one line that's the summary of it |
| 01:12.22 | JohnGetTheCamera | i haven't had issues i was curious |
| 01:12.43 | JohnGetTheCamera | i'm thinking that the debian packages in OBS should be googd |
| 01:12.45 | JohnGetTheCamera | *good |
| 01:16.09 | gnarface | it's easy enough to try, but it might take a long time to find out whether it works or not.... maybe even more than a day, if you have an older computer |
| 01:17.51 | JohnGetTheCamera | ah right |
| 01:22.29 | JohnGetTheCamera | hopefully the browser is the biggest thing i end up having on my computer |
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| 13:49.13 | gour | hello, i'm running debian sid with xfce on my desktop and have no issues with its stability except that i'd prefer that i can do 'apt update' not so often. otoh, i'd like to switch to devuan to get rid of systemd, but wonder if devuan's Ceres is similar to Debian's Side when it comes to stability or you maybe recommend Chimaera (aka testing) for someone wanting less admin overhead and not so ancient pkgs as in 'stable' ? |
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| 13:55.32 | fsmithred | gour, devuan is debian except for a couple hundred packages that we fork to remove systemd deps. |
| 13:55.54 | fsmithred | so the update/upgrade frequency will be the same |
| 13:56.35 | fsmithred | there are people using chimaera and/or ceres and it seems to be in pretty good shape. |
| 13:58.08 | gour | fsmithred: ok, good. i'm in general happy with stability of 'unstable', so does 'testing' offers similar stability along with decent freshness (except during the freeze period)? |
| 13:58.42 | fsmithred | yes. Things move from unstable to tesing after I think it's two weeks |
| 13:59.13 | fsmithred | I like to have testing and then unstable pinned to a lower priority, so if I need to get a fix, I can get it quickly |
| 13:59.38 | fsmithred | That said, I haven't had to pull anything from unstable except to test some package fixes. |
| 13:59.41 | gour | in case of ceres, what would be recommended max. period to do 'apt update' ? |
| 13:59.56 | fsmithred | no clue |
| 14:00.10 | fsmithred | hang on and I'll give you some numbers |
| 14:00.17 | gour | ahh, that's a good tip - use pinning |
| 14:01.10 | fsmithred | ok, I went from Nov 12 until today to upgade a chimaera VM, and the upgrade had more than 700 packages |
| 14:02.30 | gour | thanks...which one is your 'daily driver' ? |
| 14:02.56 | fsmithred | on another box, I went from Jan 2 to Jan 26 and I think it was a little over 300 packages |
| 14:03.01 | fsmithred | beowulf here on the desktop |
| 14:03.50 | gour | any backports? |
| 14:03.50 | fsmithred | chimaera on the laptop that doesn't get used for a lot. video conference, occasional VM boot a live iso |
| 14:04.27 | fsmithred | I don't think I'm using any. Hardware is 9-10 years old, so I'm not in need of new kernel. |
| 14:04.53 | fsmithred | you thinking of a fresh install or migrating your sid to ceres? |
| 14:05.16 | gour | my hw is also old, i7 2.8G, ancient graphic etc. |
| 14:05.17 | fsmithred | and btw, it's safter to use codenames than to use 'testing' or 'unstable' in sources.list |
| 14:05.48 | gour | probably i'd the former, not sure if migration would work |
| 14:05.49 | fsmithred | debian testing will go stable before devuan does |
| 14:05.57 | gour | nods |
| 14:06.07 | fsmithred | migration might work but might give some trouble. |
| 14:06.30 | fsmithred | if you want to try it, I suggest that you do not upgrade for some time before you do the migration. |
| 14:06.47 | fsmithred | sometimes the devuan packages are a little behind the debian packages |
| 14:07.42 | fsmithred | fresh install is less stressful |
| 14:07.47 | gour | i'll try to do fresh install on my spare (netbook) machine first |
| 14:08.16 | fsmithred | we don't have any chimaera isos yet |
| 14:08.34 | fsmithred | do a minimal beowulf install and then upgrade and then add what you want |
| 14:08.54 | gour | ok, i did the same with sid |
| 14:09.07 | fsmithred | it's also possible to do a debootstrap install with any of the live isos |
| 14:09.27 | numzob | i did not know that |
| 14:10.24 | fsmithred | :) |
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| 14:46.04 | buZz | lol https://surrounder.nl/systemd_on_devuan.png |
| 14:48.09 | numzob | is still waiting for BSD systemd |
| 14:56.35 | r3boot | there is https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systembsd.git , but that didnt catch on |
| 14:57.12 | numzob | yikes! I was *kidding* |
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| 15:03.55 | daimon | hey all I am doing a system install tomorrow and am interested in a system that uses neither systemd or X11, the system is presently gentoo but I really do not have the time to mess about for that long |
| 15:04.03 | daimon | can I install devuan and force it to never instal-l x11? |
| 15:05.16 | r3boot | install a minimal release and make sure you dont install anything which is dependent on xorg |
| 15:05.20 | daimon | I really only require docker, some ldap things and a few other bits and pieces, but I find with well anything that is not gentoo, they always seem to want to drag in bundles of graphical and x11 libraries despite not being required |
| 15:05.36 | daimon | yes my problem is the packages for most operating systems seem to have built with xorg if they had the option |
| 15:05.56 | r3boot | right, well, the burden of checking them is on you |
| 15:06.02 | daimon | so no oiption? |
| 15:06.14 | daimon | because as I said the default seems to be 'if it supports x11 we will bundle it' |
| 15:06.20 | daimon | is devuan the same in this respect? |
| 15:06.22 | r3boot | only gentoo has use flags, the rest does not |
| 15:06.36 | fsmithred | daimon, it might help to install without Recommends |
| 15:06.47 | fsmithred | that will reduce some cruft |
| 15:07.10 | daimon | I will give it a shot in a vm, I am so hoping I do not have to do a gentoo build in the office tomorrow -_- |
| 15:07.11 | fsmithred | dependencies in devuan are essentially the same as in debian, except for systemd |
| 15:07.20 | fsmithred | ouch |
| 15:07.44 | r3boot | docker and ldap-utils dont depend on xorg iig |
| 15:07.46 | daimon | while talking over the plans for a large development project with a contractor, you know the fun stuff ;) |
| 15:08.02 | daimon | r3boot, my problem I think came mostly from midnight commander, zfs and tmux |
| 15:08.07 | daimon | that all seemed to drag in x11 somehow |
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| 15:08.28 | daimon | at least in ... I think it was mint? its been a couple of years since the default OS was on that system |
| 15:08.42 | fsmithred | apt --no-install-recommends install <package> <package> ... |
| 15:09.17 | daimon | fsmithred, just in hyperv now starting an install! lets see how we go |
| 15:09.36 | fsmithred | in the installer, when you get to the tasksel window that has desktop environments and other stuff listed, un-check most or all of them. |
| 15:09.54 | fsmithred | I like to keep standard system utilities |
| 15:10.04 | fsmithred | things like bzip2, lsof... |
| 15:10.38 | fsmithred | daimon, are you familiar with the debian installer? |
| 15:11.22 | daimon | fsmithred, well I managed to get it to install over rs232 emulation on a freebsd host, so I assume I can work it out :) |
| 15:11.25 | daimon | I am going to pull ftp://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_beowulf/installer-iso/devuan_beowulf_3.0.0_amd64-netinstall.iso |
| 15:12.10 | fsmithred | that'll work |
| 15:12.20 | daimon | oh the only other thing is ZFS |
| 15:12.27 | daimon | any issues I should know about? |
| 15:12.35 | fsmithred | yeah, but I don't know them |
| 15:12.38 | daimon | ;) |
| 15:12.50 | fsmithred | maybe we can catch the attention of mason |
| 15:13.03 | fsmithred | also some discussions on the forum for zfs root |
| 15:13.15 | daimon | ah me and mason know each other from a mutual social room |
| 15:13.20 | daimon | I thought was a pure BSD man |
| 15:13.35 | fsmithred | pretty sure it's not a choice in the installer |
| 15:13.48 | fsmithred | somehow we lured him here |
| 15:13.52 | daimon | I do not mind the root being a standard XFS/ext |
| 15:14.07 | fsmithred | ok, so you can add stuff later |
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| 15:14.37 | daimon | though I must admit on the note of zfs/ext I have never really researched either, I tend to pick XFS for no really valid reason |
| 15:14.46 | daimon | xfs/ext * |
| 15:15.05 | fsmithred | what you are used to |
| 15:15.25 | fsmithred | for me, linux is pretty easy, windows is hard and confusing |
| 15:15.29 | daimon | well my linux box is gentoo, which is a XFS root and a couple of zpools mounted under /mnt/ |
| 15:15.47 | daimon | but I have no reason for picking XFS and not ext4, I really do not know the difference between the two |
| 15:15.53 | daimon | performance and reliability wise |
| 15:16.44 | daimon | which would you choose? |
| 15:18.18 | fsmithred | I always use ext |
| 15:18.36 | fsmithred | wikipedia says xfs is good for parallel i/o and for large files |
| 15:18.37 | daimon | the last linux I used was ext as well I think extfs2 ... redhat 5 |
| 15:18.46 | fsmithred | lol |
| 15:19.21 | fsmithred | omg, yeah I started with redhat 7, ext2 |
| 15:19.43 | fsmithred | if I used a different filesystem I would have to learn new commands |
| 15:19.48 | daimon | well the system is comprised of 3 magnetic and 1 solid state drive, my way or working was to install a very small install < 20G on the SSD, therefor allowing some space for ZFS cache for a raidz1 of the 3 magnetics |
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| 15:20.02 | daimon | so I suppose in reality it would not matter what the heck the base os was based on, only the zpool's get abuse |
| 15:20.50 | daimon | I keep meaning to get an nvme for the system to make a more effective slog/l2arc |
| 15:21.20 | daimon | I would assume with the long history of linux, that ext is the more ... 'supported' of the base file systems |
| 15:22.08 | n4dir | in other IRC channels i hear a lot about all kind of filesystems for a few weeks now, so there seems to be a hype. I don't listen much, so that is all i can say. |
| 15:22.24 | n4dir | regarding ext being more "supported", i mean |
| 15:22.54 | fsmithred | probably btrfs talk |
| 15:23.00 | daimon | well me and fsmithred was using a derivative of ext while crying trying to deal with redhat and ppp I imagine |
| 15:23.11 | daimon | is btrfs a thing still, I thought they set it on fire and kicked it down the hill |
| 15:23.16 | n4dir | sounds familiar, but i really don't listen, as i don't really care for filesystems. |
| 15:23.38 | fsmithred | no, it's still around and still being developed, I think |
| 15:25.03 | daimon | ok lets give the boot a try |
| 15:25.32 | daimon | what is wrong with a good old 340x480 rs232 comaptible boot screen |
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| 15:29.02 | daimon | interesting never seen that option before |
| 15:29.23 | daimon | https://i.itsosticky.com/5wb3tl.png |
| 15:30.29 | fsmithred | you want yes? |
| 15:30.37 | fsmithred | default is no, which is the old way |
| 15:31.14 | daimon | honestly if I could I would choose to have the base system in /bin,/sbin etc and all things added later in /usr/local/{s}bin |
| 15:31.18 | daimon | shows his freebsd jade |
| 15:31.46 | daimon | but no I was just remarking on never seeing that as an option before (in memory at least) |
| 15:31.55 | n4dir | i don't think linux systems has the clear distinction between base system and third-party as the BSD systems hae |
| 15:31.58 | n4dir | have |
| 15:32.07 | fsmithred | yeah, I'm pretty sure we added that question |
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| 15:32.32 | daimon | they do not, when you tell a linux system to remove evertthingit really does where as a bsd system will just remove the 'non BSD core' :P that was fun to learn all those years ago |
| 15:33.01 | n4dir | yup, like that. There is no way back. |
| 15:33.19 | daimon | oh this is nice did you add this option too https://i.itsosticky.com/poq687.png ? |
| 15:33.35 | n4dir | way back to something one could call "base system" |
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| 15:41.10 | daimon | I like how there is now an option to get automatic updates and it can be narrowed to just security updates |
| 15:42.00 | daimon | what is 'consule productivity' https://i.itsosticky.com/e4uuqf.png I assume this would be tmux, zfs etc? |
| 15:43.19 | daimon | got it: http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2271 ta |
| 15:43.52 | daimon | no nmap or socat? kinda suprising |
| 15:45.38 | n4dir | console productivity seems to be everything and the kitchen sink. Stuff like mc, gpm, links, what not |
| 15:45.43 | n4dir | zsh. |
| 15:45.47 | daimon | I hope its the nox11-mc |
| 15:46.00 | daimon | as it does have a GTK wrapper |
| 15:46.44 | daimon | and I just seen the package for libx11 install .. |
| 15:48.09 | daimon | https://i.itsosticky.com/2oyvq7.png |
| 15:48.11 | daimon | of course it bloody did |
| 15:48.51 | daimon | is there a way I can blacklist a package from ever being installed under any circumstance |
| 15:51.36 | daimon | I did not set passwords yet root/nopass is not working as the login? |
| 15:51.54 | r3boot | daimon: google apt + hold |
| 15:52.14 | r3boot | that'll give you instructions on how to configure it. |
| 15:52.29 | daimon | sweet and the fact I set no passwords during the install yet root / nopassword is denied? |
| 15:52.43 | daimon | on the local terminal not via ssh |
| 15:52.45 | n4dir | no root password probably means sudo gets configured |
| 15:52.51 | daimon | no users configured either |
| 15:53.01 | n4dir | well. |
| 15:53.23 | daimon | at least it booted which was the main point, but that is pretty crappy and not how pam should work by default |
| 15:54.50 | daimon | ill throw it through the install later and do the absolute minimum install and see if I can hold libx11 and use, 15:08, <fsmithred> apt --no-install-recommends install <package> <package> ... |
| 15:54.57 | daimon | to get everything installed |
| 15:55.08 | daimon | should be dine I imagine |
| 15:55.12 | daimon | fine* even |
| 16:02.26 | xinomilo | # apt install unattended-upgrades && dpkg-reconfigure -plow unattended-upgrades |
| 16:03.32 | daimon | what does that do |
| 16:04.05 | daimon | I assume that is the mechanism for the automatic security upgrades (without doing it via the install) |
| 16:09.20 | fsmithred | if you're on chimaera or ceres you probably want to review upgrades before letting them run. |
| 16:13.39 | daimon | ah I see |
| 16:13.57 | daimon | this is not so bad, one final question ... if I was to boot this on a system with no graphics card what so ever |
| 16:14.10 | daimon | would it automatically start a console on rs232 port 1 |
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| 16:21.12 | daimon | and in https://i.itsosticky.com/1sworxr.png |
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| 16:25.07 | daimon | as an aside even the minimal install still shoves libx11 in https://i.itsosticky.com/up181h.png |
| 16:25.28 | n4dir | aptitude why libx11 |
| 16:25.53 | daimon | l;et me install aptitude first ;p one mo |
| 16:27.06 | daimon | https://i.itsosticky.com/wd76e1.png |
| 16:27.09 | daimon | I did not install ssh-server ... |
| 16:29.16 | daimon | ok now I am confused |
| 16:30.02 | daimon | https://i.itsosticky.com/1byvc53.png |
| 16:30.12 | daimon | I marked libx11-6 as held |
| 16:30.14 | daimon | yet it ignored it? |
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| 16:44.37 | daimon | fsmithred, https://i.itsosticky.com/1xwxlr1.png with no install-recommends? what is going on here |
| 16:46.22 | fsmithred | you missed a word |
| 16:46.33 | fsmithred | apt --no-install-recommends install docker |
| 16:46.43 | fsmithred | or 'install whatever' |
| 16:47.14 | daimon | makes sense https://i.itsosticky.com/1qi6gr6.png though still does not apparently work |
| 16:47.21 | daimon | unless I am being excessively dim |
| 16:47.24 | daimon | (likely) |
| 16:47.25 | fsmithred | what are you trying to install? What is docker? |
| 16:47.32 | daimon | docker is a containerization system |
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| 16:47.35 | fsmithred | that's not the container software |
| 16:47.39 | fsmithred | nope |
| 16:47.47 | fsmithred | apt-cache search docker |
| 16:47.51 | fsmithred | to get the right name |
| 16:48.31 | fsmithred | docker.io |
| 16:49.04 | daimon | what the heck was I trying to install |
| 16:49.15 | daimon | I could understand dockerd but docker.io? |
| 16:50.15 | daimon | well that one is making the notepad :) thank you fsmithred |
| 16:50.59 | daimon | interesting it raised a warning on install that the user 'kvm' is unknown, perhaps that is for if you want to run a native windows docker |
| 16:51.07 | fsmithred | ignore that |
| 16:51.43 | daimon | https://i.itsosticky.com/1mxdfxo.png perfect |
| 16:52.59 | daimon | this should work perfectly as long as zfs does, ill whinge at mason when I spot him to validate it hopefully before tomorrow :) |
| 16:53.14 | daimon | thank you for all the help fsmithred n4dir and r3boot |
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| 16:55.13 | n4dir | it bugged me, so i did a minimal installation with standar-task chosen only. Yes, the libx11-libs are there, due to open-ssh-client and xauth and such |
| 16:55.14 | fsmithred | yw |
| 16:55.36 | n4dir | i would not have expected that. (else there was no need to check it myself). You learn a new thing every day |
| 17:01.05 | fsmithred | xauth is a Recommends of openssh-client, and xauth recommends libx11 |
| 17:01.25 | daimon | oh the last question I never did see an answer too, if you boot the installer on a system with no video card (or one that does) will an installation terminal open on tty0? |
| 17:01.35 | daimon | or com port1 |
| 17:01.44 | fsmithred | sorry, I've never done serial port |
| 17:01.51 | fsmithred | there is a way to do it |
| 17:02.00 | fsmithred | see debian documentation on that |
| 17:02.07 | daimon | yeah it seems one of those things that is default or you have to edit the boot loader |
| 17:02.23 | daimon | its a curiosity just wondering, the system this is heading to does have onboard video so no real concern |
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| 18:20.57 | hagbard_ | Has anyone here ever tried to recompile the glibc? These are the test failures I get: https://paste.debian.net/1184752/ |
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| 18:54.58 | gnarface | hagbard_: haven't tried it recently, error doesn't look familiar. double-check all your dependency versions maybe...? if you haven't run "apt-get build-dep [package]" try it first, and if you have, look for stuff it might have missed |
| 18:55.41 | gnarface | (bison, yacc, meson are historically common culprits for me) |
| 18:56.10 | hagbard_ | I've had installed the build-deps. |
| 19:19.40 | gnarface | hagbard_: and you also have build-essential? try installing bison, yacc, and meson too, just in case. all you have to lose is the time and the disk space. |
| 19:19.55 | hagbard_ | yes, i have all those |
| 19:20.47 | hagbard_ | compile seems to complete, but then the tests fail. |
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| 19:22.19 | hagbard_ | But no surprise, glibc has always been the most finicky thing of all to build. |
| 19:23.06 | daimon | hagbard_, I find http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/chapter05/glibc.html |
| 19:23.12 | daimon | quite good reading for building baseline libraries |
| 19:24.07 | daimon | http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/index.html for the main index |
| 19:28.19 | gnarface | hagbard_: oh, i thought the build was actually failing. i'm not sure those test are even expected to all succeed, regardless of what their output actually says. is this the chimera or ceres package you're trying to build, or upstream sources, or what? |
| 19:28.51 | hagbard_ | devuan testing |
| 19:28.53 | gnarface | hagbard_: are you trying to build a beowoulf src package on beowulf? you might want to try a later release version in a chroot as a comparison |
| 19:29.23 | gnarface | hagbard_: so, to be clear, you're trying to build the chimera source package in a beowulf install with no backports, right? |
| 19:33.54 | hagbard_ | I'm not familiar with the version names. Got the source of glibc-2.31 with apt-get source, and then I tried it build it in testing. |
| 19:35.02 | hagbard_ | I have just 'testing' and 'unstable' and such in my repositories, so I don't keep track of the version names. |
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| 19:40.39 | fsmithred | hagbard_, after jessie, we started with A and go in alphabetical order |
| 19:41.04 | fsmithred | and ceres=sid = always the same |
| 19:44.58 | gnarface | hagbard_: i386 or amd64? |
| 19:48.20 | gnarface | hagbard_: i'm trying to figure out what variables we could change and still get the build you want, but i'd be at the point of trying builds i can't use (like on ceres) just as a comparison |
| 19:48.45 | gnarface | or try a different gcc version even |
| 19:48.56 | gnarface | or maybe check into backporting some dependencies first |
| 19:52.52 | hagbard_ | I think I'll try it again in a fresh clean vm instead of on my daily driver laptop. |
| 19:52.57 | hagbard_ | amd64 |
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| 20:00.18 | gnarface | hagbard_: a debootstrapped chroot would probably be fine |
| 20:00.28 | gnarface | hagbard_: do you have multi-arch enabled? |
| 20:00.58 | gnarface | hagbard_: is it possible maybe it's trying to build both amd64 and i386 stuff and you only have the amd64 dependencies? |
| 20:01.32 | gnarface | hagbard_: lemme know if anything changes in the clean install |
| 20:01.43 | gnarface | hagbard_: and maybe we can get detailed messages from those test failures? |
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