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| 00:57.35 | Guest9 | has anyone tried devuan/kFreeBSD |
| 00:57.45 | Guest9 | i'm thinking of doing that but i'm not sure if it works |
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| 00:59.31 | gnarface | Guest9: haven't tried it but i'm curious too. lemme know what you find out./ |
| 00:59.56 | rwp | I am also interested to know if that works. |
| 01:00.14 | Guest9 | ah yeah |
| 01:00.33 | Guest9 | so if i migrate from debian buster what exactly changes |
| 01:00.42 | gnarface | what i'm primarily curious about is if it works well enough to use packetfilter in place of of iptables or nftables |
| 01:01.03 | Guest9 | i don't really know any of the technical details of what happens so i'm not sure |
| 01:01.16 | gnarface | a bunch of systemd stuff gets ripped out |
| 01:01.28 | rwp | Guest9, Docs on that: https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/buster-to-beowulf |
| 01:01.36 | Guest9 | thanks |
| 01:03.40 | Guest9 | it seems like it'd be better to change to debian/kFreeBSD first before switching to devuan |
| 01:04.01 | rwp | Hmm... I could make arguments either way. |
| 01:05.26 | gnarface | Guest9: level of difficulty is gonna be related to what you have installed already, typically minimal, headless installs are easiest to upgrade |
| 01:05.50 | gnarface | Guest9: should work in every situation but some people have had to uninstall certain packages first |
| 01:06.16 | rwp | I am NOT using any of GNOME, Network Manager, Pulse Audio, cgroups, or others and so for me it doesn't seem difficult. |
| 01:06.38 | gnarface | Guest9: (in one rare case it was actually the running kernel package that needed to be uninstalled and reinstalled before reboot, which caused a lot of people a lot of undue stress, but i think that one got fixed) |
| 01:06.43 | rwp | And in the past for some Desktop Environments it was a lot easier to purge KDE off for example before the upgrade and then install it again afterward. |
| 01:07.08 | Guest9 | i'm using xfce and i can't really think of anything i'd be missing so |
| 01:07.10 | Guest9 | idk |
| 01:07.44 | rwp | XFCE works fine. But I have only installed it afterward and not migrated through with it previously installed. |
| 01:08.09 | gnarface | stuff like swapping out udev/eudev and systemd-logind/elogind can cause some package dependency loops in some cases that you have to manually massage out, that's all |
| 01:08.19 | rwp | Normally for me I am running i3 as a window manager without a DE (Desktop Environment) installed. |
| 01:08.31 | gnarface | just stay connected here with another machine while you do it and we can help you through it |
| 01:09.03 | rwp | I am a big advocate for using 'etckeeper' package to keep version history of /etc in git. |
| 01:09.26 | gnarface | (if you used backports packages, the version matching can be wrong and they'll look newer when they're not, so you have to remove them manually to upgrade, that type of thing) |
| 01:09.27 | rwp | Then I can purge off packages without any stress at all about losing working configuration. Because it is all in git for later reference. |
| 01:10.01 | rwp | And therefore when I get into problems I simplify by purging off packages aggressively. And then afterward installing them back on. |
| 01:10.04 | gnarface | yea, you don't need to really install etckeeper but you should definitely at least backup /etc/ first |
| 01:10.25 | Guest9 | on a separate partition? |
| 01:10.32 | gnarface | just anywhere it won't get overwritten |
| 01:10.34 | Guest9 | alr |
| 01:10.35 | gnarface | a usb key or whatever is fine |
| 01:10.36 | rwp | A copy of /etc for later reference would definitely be enough to avoid questions later. |
| 01:10.40 | gnarface | it won't take much space |
| 01:11.06 | rwp | Do you have a second system to stay connected on IRC? Then make a copy of it there. |
| 01:11.17 | gnarface | the upgrade process shouldn't (and almost never will) replace config files you've edited, but it's not always easy to know what changes you should keep or not |
| 01:12.44 | Guest9 | alr |
| 01:14.13 | rwp | dpkg puts new files as .dpkg-new or .dpkg-old and so before I upgrade I clean up all of those left over files first: find /etc -name '*.dpkg-*' -ls |
| 01:14.33 | rwp | Then after the upgrade I look at those files again. And merge and cleanup anything that is needed afterward. |
| 01:14.35 | gnarface | i run them through emacs merge :-/ |
| 01:14.43 | rwp | Emacs! FTW! |
| 01:15.09 | gnarface | M-x ediff-merge-buffers |
| 01:15.12 | rwp | Therefore except for something that will break networking for example I tend to always select the new incoming package maintainers conffile version for everything. |
| 01:15.24 | Guest9 | will i still be able to use apt? |
| 01:15.34 | rwp | Because then I look at all of the files afterward with that find command above and then merge and cleanup everything afterward. |
| 01:15.45 | rwp | That way I get the new files in the new form after the upgrade. |
| 01:15.55 | rwp | apt? Yes. |
| 01:15.56 | gnarface | Guest9: yes, they didn't remove anything other than systemd and a few things that they couldn't afford to fork and wouldn't run without it |
| 01:16.10 | Guest9 | oh i was mainly talking about debian/kfreebsd |
| 01:16.15 | rwp | apt calls dpkg under the hood as the engine. That's why I mentioned what dpkg does. But we all use one of the apt command line tools. |
| 01:16.47 | Guest9 | i thought that i'd have to use the ports system |
| 01:16.55 | gnarface | Guest9: oh, from what i've read the debian kfreebsd kernel is supposedly fully compatible with the existing linux userspace environment; that's why they bothered doing this |
| 01:17.01 | Guest9 | ah |
| 01:17.03 | rwp | You could... But first you would need to install FreeBSD! :-) |
| 01:17.10 | gnarface | Guest9: you should be able to use 100% debian userspace as before |
| 01:17.25 | Guest9 | ok good |
| 01:17.31 | gnarface | Guest9: but that's where stuff at the border piques my curiosity - such as packetfilter |
| 01:18.10 | rwp | pf would be a very interesting use case. I like the idea. That might make for a really interestingly excellent firewall router device. |
| 01:18.48 | gnarface | Guest9: (so far my observations of people who understand packetfilter and people willing to use debian other than me results in a venn diagram of two circles that don't overlap) |
| 01:19.26 | rwp | I've not used pf myself either but people who do say really good things about it. |
| 01:19.43 | Guest9 | i'm pretty new to linux myself |
| 01:19.52 | Guest9 | i know a lot of basic commands and i know how to use vi |
| 01:19.53 | Guest9 | so uh |
| 01:19.54 | Guest9 | lol |
| 01:20.04 | gnarface | well good luck to you |
| 01:20.08 | gnarface | dinner time for me |
| 01:20.11 | Guest9 | yeah |
| 01:20.20 | rwp | And on the other hand Linux keeps rolling new version of it's networking. ipadw, ipchains, iptables, nftables, and the changes just keep rolling on... |
| 01:20.35 | Guest9 | i was just curious if anyone had tried devuan/kFreeBSD |
| 01:20.55 | Guest9 | i'll come back when i can do the install |
| 01:21.01 | Guest9 | i'm a bit busy with schoolwork |
| 01:21.04 | rwp | Guest9, Right now you have a sample size of 2. And neither of us have. Out of a user base of many thousands. I am sure others have. |
| 01:21.13 | Guest9 | that's true |
| 01:21.44 | rwp | Basically you were in the coffee shop with the laptop and turned to the other two people sharing the table. And we thought it was an interesting question too. |
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| 01:42.58 | Xenguy | Guest9: If it were me I'd just do a fresh install, but then I tend to be risk-adverse |
| 02:07.29 | Guest9 | i'm not sure if installing debian/kfreebsd is a good idea |
| 02:07.49 | Guest9 | it wasn't even released for debian jessie |
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| 02:18.45 | mason | Guest9: I've mucked with it. Only issue for me was it doesn't support UEFI at present. |
| 02:18.59 | Guest9 | ah that sucks, i use a uefi pc |
| 02:19.08 | mason | Guest9: You'd have to use CSM. |
| 02:20.04 | mason | I can see the appeal of course. If you have questions, join #debian-kbsd on OFTC. They're fairly active. |
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| 02:26.33 | fsmithred | or have another linux installed to manage grub. |
| 03:08.45 | Guest9 | rwp, what do you use instead of pulseaudio? |
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| 03:30.42 | rwp | ALSA has always worked very well for me. Pulse Audio has too often not worked until I uninstalled it. |
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| 03:48.52 | clort | i see a schism between those who want linux to be their developer 'romper room' and greybeards who want it to be solid |
| 03:51.01 | gnarface | it has always been that way, but keep that part of the discussion in #devuan-offtopic |
| 04:01.38 | furrywolf | the nice thing about linux is it can be both. also, greybeards are often the most adventuresome developers. |
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| 04:22.29 | MinceR | the less nice thing about Linux is that it will be neither, and instead it will be the new windows |
| 04:23.04 | golinux | Oe Winmac |
| 04:23.17 | golinux | Or |
| 04:23.54 | golinux | Should be in offtopic |
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| 05:45.23 | unixbsd | where to find Cups Wrapper on DEVUAN? |
| 05:51.42 | unixbsd | I need /usr lib cups filter lpdwrapper.. programm. |
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| 05:59.57 | rrq | there's cups-bsd for cli printing (lpr) |
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| 06:09.47 | enyc | meows |
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| 10:05.28 | digdug_ | bows |
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| 10:09.11 | clort | hey digdug_ - is there a decent open-source digdug clone |
| 10:23.21 | digdug_ | great question, not that i'm aware of ... |
| 10:23.28 | digdug_ | :) |
| 10:26.54 | digdug_ | i just did a fresh install of devuan into virtualbox (xfce) and when i go to settings > display, the dialog appears for a split-second and then goes away |
| 10:27.31 | digdug_ | other than that, everything is going great, and it's nice to have a distro which is both lightweight and works out of the box for someone who is not a gnu/linux nerd |
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| 11:09.15 | clort | yes |
| 11:09.28 | clort | i don't know about virtualbox (xfce) |
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| 11:45.44 | clort | did apt just get faster handling of database and installes? |
| 11:46.58 | djph | clort: no? |
| 11:49.40 | clort | ok maybe it's kernel 5.10 doing better ext4 now |
| 11:49.55 | clort | cause apt operations just got like 1.5x faster here on phone |
| 11:54.42 | djph | dunno :) |
| 11:59.14 | digdug_ | in devuan xfce, my ide isn't getting ctrl+f7 keypress when i do it |
| 11:59.22 | digdug_ | is something overriding it in default install? |
| 12:07.35 | gnarface | clort: depends on what kernel you switched from, but there was a mmcblk/flash performance issue fixed sometime soon before that |
| 12:08.19 | gnarface | digdug_: dunno about the ctrl+f7 thing, but the thing about missing display settings might either be a virtualbox issue, or just a missing package (that might be the same issue too) |
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| 12:09.14 | gnarface | clort: (i don't think it was specific to any particular filesystem) |
| 12:09.29 | digdug_ | thanks, gnarface, any idea what package it might be or which logfile to look at? |
| 12:10.14 | gnarface | digdug_: package name would probably start with xfce |
| 12:10.58 | gnarface | digdug_: the log you want to look at would be the xorg log, either at ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log or /var/log/Xorg.0.log depending on your configuration |
| 12:11.33 | gnarface | digdug_: apt-cache search [regexp] |
| 12:14.24 | gnarface | digdug_: being virtualbox and to do with display settings though might expose permissions issues |
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| 13:55.20 | digdug_ | gnarface: well, you were right that it has to do with vbox, and the log file is the right one as well |
| 13:55.29 | digdug_ | however, i installed the extensions, and now it is working |
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| 14:01.10 | gnarface | cool |
| 14:02.30 | digdug_ | here is what i found in the log: |
| 14:02.33 | digdug_ | http://qdb.us/txt/90/5b/905bf636f64d59b9c7d5db2a891915ce387c90c5.txt |
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| 14:28.03 | sacioz | ansami |
| 14:29.04 | sacioz | Before it gets too late , to all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year ... |
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| 14:35.37 | n4dir | do check if a laptop can to bluetooth, will i look at lspci? If yes, what am i looking for? |
| 14:36.25 | koollman | most likely to be listed in lsusb |
| 14:36.47 | koollman | dmesg | grep -i blue, if you are lucky ;) |
| 14:41.25 | n4dir | wondering why lsusb ... |
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| 14:57.16 | koollman | n4dir: because many bt adapters are usb device even when internal |
| 15:00.10 | n4dir | hmm. Perhaps this laptop has no bluetooth |
| 15:01.08 | n4dir | blueman says something like no adapters found |
| 15:01.30 | n4dir | but shouldn't it already complain when turning bluetooth on? |
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| 15:18.19 | clort | you'd think so yes |
| 15:19.17 | clort | i found a nice c++ and allegro digdug clone digdug_ |
| 15:20.38 | clort | it's not a bad effort, some badness in the screen setup, and a couple of poorly implemented gameplay issues |
| 15:21.11 | clort | also it amuse me when a game originally 64kB takes multimegabytes now |
| 15:21.49 | nemo | clort: heh. I imagine there's a digdug for some of those "virtual" computers out there that still takes a few kilobytes |
| 15:22.15 | clort | there's one for the pico8 but i don't have that emu running |
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| 15:22.43 | clort | right now allegro borks on the droid4, works fine on jetson nano though |
| 15:22.51 | clort | in case anyone wants to fix that |
| 15:24.20 | nemo | clort: https://tic80.com/play |
| 15:32.11 | clort | that side doesn't render in dillo :/ |
| 15:33.51 | nemo | odd. it renders in firefox with noscript and umatrix blocking |
| 15:33.59 | nemo | let's see how it renders in something even more minimalistic |
| 15:34.12 | nemo | hm... isn't too bad in w3m either |
| 15:35.21 | clort | dillo needs some work on float css tags |
| 15:35.45 | nemo | ah |
| 15:36.20 | nemo | been over a decade since I've used dillo |
| 15:36.52 | n4dir | do it as long it is still there ! |
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| 15:49.22 | nemo | n4dir: heh. just haven't had any enormous need for it |
| 15:49.33 | nemo | n4dir: my old laptop had 96MiB of RAM and I used it more then |
| 15:50.06 | nemo | I do appreciate the benefit of multiple reference implementations of web standards. not sure if dillo is getting the love it needs for me to trust it though |
| 15:50.16 | nemo | actually even on that old laptop, Seamonkey was pretty usable |
| 15:51.23 | n4dir | i am not sure dillo still gets mainained |
| 15:52.04 | nemo | so that boils down to "I'm safe online 'cause no one would be bothered to design or deploy exploits for it" |
| 15:52.24 | nemo | which I guess is possible, although if any were created, checking for them and invoking them would be pretty much zero cost. |
| 15:52.25 | phogg | n4dir: netsurf is a sufficiently light alternative |
| 15:52.48 | n4dir | it is. bit not in the repos anymore |
| 15:53.48 | n4dir | i use falkon. not really light |
| 15:53.53 | phogg | ah, hadn't noticed. I've been building it from source for a while. |
| 15:54.07 | n4dir | i failed :-) |
| 15:56.20 | nemo | $ eix -c www-client/* > temp.txt |
| 15:56.30 | nemo | https://m8y.org/tmp/temp.txt |
| 15:58.02 | clort | i'm finding that the people who make sites needing heavy browsers are less and less people i want to be reading |
| 15:58.34 | nemo | clort: yeah... I rarely whitelist sites in noscript, and I do a surprising amount of browsing in w3m |
| 15:59.13 | nemo | clort: twitter decided to kill off their HTML only website, and I was like... welp. that's probably good for me anyway. there's always nitter or spoofing google bot UA\ |
| 15:59.20 | nemo | (although they serve a ton of junk to google) |
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| 19:46.26 | clort | sends christmas greetings from the space alien temple |
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| 21:20.36 | mason | #devuan-offtopic welcomes you |
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| 22:54.49 | JackFrost | plasma41: 1. Add a drop-in config file in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ that sets GTK_CSD=1. 2. Set /Gtk/DialogsUseHeader to '0'. 3. Use https://github.com/Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd (packaged in https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental) |
| 22:56.16 | plasma41 | JackFrost: thanks |
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