IRC log for #devuan on 20201029

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08:53.47suavedandyGuys. I understand that I'm a noob but it seems that if I try to install something other than Devuan I get all kinds of problems.
08:54.13suavedandyI kinda can't leave Devuan by this point.
08:56.23suavedandyTried both GeckoLinux and OpenSUSE. GeckoLinux's live ISOs have stuff not working. OpenSUSE's installation ISO doesn't even have its signature matching. Both work slow.
09:02.01danuansuavedandy debian and now devuan are more straight forward i want to say server / admin (bsd-ish of linuxes) centric distributions , majority of todays other distros are for flashy desktop / newest feature driven
09:03.48gnarfacesuavedandy: i know.  and i'm sorry.  i've done my best to fix this problem with people, the world, and society as a whole but i failed.
09:03.51danuanbut it all depends on intricacies you are more confortable in dealing with , as all of them , devuan included have their own querks ,  and depends on hardware also ( some hardware will be hassle free out of the box , some will need tweaking)
09:05.13suavedandyWell, I'm going to install AwesomeWM anyway. Proprietary drivers I don't need, my laptop seems to work with open-source stuff just fine.
09:05.27suavedandyWhich is surprising, to say the least.
09:06.38suavedandyI have an Intel network card so… Yeah, iwlwifi.
09:08.01suavedandyAlthough I do see the message that some proprietary drivers are needed while installing. And they are related to iwlwifi.
09:08.47suavedandyMaybe false alarm but I don't know.
09:09.07danuannonfree from repos will do 80 - 90% of things when free doesnt work or wont work properly , other 20 10 % you will need to just download from manufacturer
09:09.43danuansometimes they work , like say a gigabit network card on an asrock mb  only functions as 100mb on free drivers
09:12.35danuanor nvidia cards , if you want full acceleration in all situations , its nvidia drivers beats free almost always for me , but they are finiky and dont always play nice
09:13.07suavedandyLike a work laptop has a graphics card.
09:14.27suavedandyAlso, regarding Awesome. I also wanted to try InstantWM due to cool anims but it seems that it's only available on InstantWM which is Arch and in beta.
09:16.17suavedandyI mean, I could've installed DWM…
09:16.25suavedandyOr SpectrWM.
09:20.55suavedandyAlso, did the Debian team start making point releases faster? Buster was released quicker. In a year.
09:23.29gnarfacethey've never had incentive before
09:23.30gnarfacenow they do
09:23.32gnarface(us)
09:23.53gnarfacethey know they have the funds to outrun us
09:24.10gnarfacebut it is more work for them too so i'm sure it's a existential crisis for them :-p
09:25.59danuani always liked used cars , you know they are good after someone  broke them in for you , after 100k miles things just run smoother
09:26.01danuan:0
09:37.18suavedandyHas anybody tried Star?
09:37.35suavedandyOne of the Devuan derivatives.
09:41.17suavedandyIt says "Backports enabled by default." Whatever it means.
09:42.15suavedandyI mean, if they're talking about the repo then it's not hard. You open your sources.list and add beowulf-backports.
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15:59.42user____ping fsmithred
15:59.55fsmithred?
16:00.35user____Hi. I had an unscheduled power outage today on beowulf, came back nicely, but the clock is out. One hour back, i.e. un-set the DST switch which occurred a few days ago normally.
16:00.53user____Is this somehow related to my running BIOS clock on localtime? With suitable setting in adjtime ?
16:01.51fsmithredmaybe
16:01.59fsmithredyou're dual-booting windows?
16:02.25user____I am multi booting other things too. Need it on localtime.
16:02.50user____EET should be Eastern European Time UTC+3 but it gives me AM/PM. What the.
16:03.10fsmithredthis is on a desktop clock?
16:04.37user____cli root
16:04.42user____desktop follows that too
16:05.05user____what's the debianism to set the tz again? debconf-something?
16:05.28r3bootdpkg-reconfigure tzdata
16:06.58user____was set correctly, and it claims it's 18:06:19 EET which is correct
16:07.04user____But date shows the wrong time
16:07.33user____iow system date and time are okay but date shows something like Thu 29 Oct 2020 06:07:02 PM EET -- should be 24h time no PM
16:07.56koollmanthat's date formatting, not timezone/dst, I think
16:08.08koollmandepends on locale settings
16:08.10user____TZ was unset, setting export TZ=Europe/Bucharest -> same outcome, wrong
16:08.42user____env|grep (LOCALE|LC) -> nil
16:09.00user____In the C locale which should be default, 24hr "military" time should be the default, no?
16:09.39koollmanyou would think so, but no. american defaults :)
16:10.01user____uhh. US military time is 24hrs no AM/PM
16:10.16gnarfacethere is a way to set it to local time
16:10.19koollmanalthough I do wonder what should be default on my system. Maybe C local isn't used ?
16:10.20gnarfacedefault puts the bios in UTC
16:10.31gnarfacethere is also a way to make windows UTC aware
16:10.40gnarfacesome registry edit
16:11.06user____This used to work fine on ascii. I assume someone in USA edited the TZ files and got careless with defaults. I'm probably on Oklahoma "standard" time or something as a result.
16:11.14gnarfacethe "locale" command outputs the locale environment variable settings, env won't list them by default
16:11.37koollmanuser____: LC_ALL=C date
16:12.05user____yep that fixed it koollman, thanks
16:12.09gnarfacethe other possibility is that you lost that data because it was the last thing set before your hard power loss and the disks hadn't synced yet
16:12.13user____LC_ALL was unset as reported by locale
16:12.24user____gnarface: no, it was days ago
16:12.33koollmanuser____: so wrong local set somewhere, and date checks that somewhere if no local env variable set
16:12.38user____It is safe to put LC_ALL in root's .profile ?
16:12.54gnarfaceyou should be able to just run "dpkg-reconfigure locales"
16:12.56koollmanuser____: locale -a, to list known locales, locale, to see currently used one
16:12.57gnarfaceset it to what you want
16:13.09user____No, it's all en_US.UTF-8 but LC_ALL was unset which is likely the root config mistake propagated from upstream
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16:13.29user____My understanding is, LC_ALL should default to C when unset.
16:13.55user____Subtle bit rot propagation there. I can't be sure the ascii LC_ALL was also unset or set to C, since I never looked.
16:13.58koollmanif it is all en_US.UTF-8, then you very likely end up with american-looking time format
16:14.20user____LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8" O.o
16:14.34user____Yeah I need to look into this a bit
16:14.46user____In the 1st place, why would root need any locale other than C?
16:15.37user____Must make for real fun in scripts and such having the "wrong" surprizing locale in a remote connected server in another country because muppets decided to translate all messages and locale defaults to the local patois.
16:15.57user____This is a gnu-ism. Clearly. Almost Poettering class gnu-ism.
16:16.07gnarfacenah even happens in mysql
16:16.15gnarfacewelcome to the post unicode world
16:16.27gnarfaceyou just gotta get your locales right now
16:16.41user____Anyone here on beowulf who can confirm their root account is on en_US.UTF-8 while other accounts are on other locales?
16:16.57user____gnarface: yes, the only locale root needs is C, for sanity's sake.
16:17.17user____emos who need it spoonfed in their own patois do not need a root account.
16:17.36gnarfacei'm not 100% sure your base assumptions are correct
16:17.38koollmanmaybe C.UTF-8 , at least
16:17.48koollmanalso, I cannot reproduce your problem yet
16:17.49user____koollman: valid
16:17.57gnarfacebut i can verify for you that on ascii, beowulf, and ceres, every user gets the locale you set with dpkg-reconfigure
16:18.05MinceRi thought locale support was required by POSIX
16:18.08koollman(but I have too many strange envs, I need a nice clean one :) )
16:18.09user____I did a clan beowulf install so nothing changed.
16:18.15user____*clean
16:18.41gnarfacefirst thing that comes to mind is that it's not a guarantee hardware metadata or filenames are 100% latin1 characters only anymore
16:18.56user____so, is it safe to put LC_ALL=C in root's .profile or not?
16:18.57koollmangnarface: it never was
16:19.28user____gnarface: UTF8 is a valid upgrade but assuming local patois conventions for numbers and dates is not
16:19.37user____Even if the local patois is American English.
16:19.42koollmanI'm not sure what changes the display, though
16:19.55user____koollman: try LC_ALL= date
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16:20.51gnarfacei wonder if this is just one of those things where you have to change the debconf priority to get it to ask the right questions
16:21.02koollmanuser____: I don't have the problem, but I know my envs aren't clean installs. But, to be sure, in your env this gives two different output : LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 date ; LC_ALL=C date
16:21.51koollmanif so, yeah, I would definitely set C or C.UTF8 as my default system-wide locale
16:24.09user____Right, so LC_ALL is a shortcut to override all the other settings.
16:24.33user____Right, will set it so koollman
16:24.59a1000did anyone had install problems with linux-libc-dev recently ?
16:25.09koollmanuser____: but you do confirm that those two are different on your beowulf install ?
16:26.27user____hm? Yes date output with LC_ALL= defaults to US AM/PM mode; LC_ALL=C.UTF-8 makes it right (24h)
16:27.02user____And yes with LC_ALL=en_US.utf8 is't American and the same as LC_ALL=
16:27.19user____also locale dumps LC_TIME as en_US etc as above, so, not a surprize.
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16:30.40user____Trying to find a reference on default POSIX time, pretty sure it is Zulu 24h format, but can't find it.
16:32.02a1000POSIX time is Epoch with 0=1.1.1970 0:0 UTC
16:32.28user____I've edited /etc/profile + export LC_ALL="C.UTF-8" but for ~/.profile 's I did: export LC_TIME="C.UTF-8"
16:32.48user____This is safer in view of whatever else the user needs (I am the only user on this system for now)
16:33.09user____a1000: how convenient, no mention of AM or PM -- aha! no mention means 24hrs...
16:36.49a1000POSIX simply counts seconds, what you make out of it depends on you, this way you can handle any timezone etc
16:37.06user____It also has a "default" date format which is what I was after.
16:37.11user____"canonical" date?
16:38.06user____https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/date.html this should be as close as it gets imo
16:39.02user____"Otherwise, date shall use the timezone indicated by the TZ environment variable or the system default if that variable is unset or null."
16:39.07user____What IS the system default.
16:39.14user____Should be C imo.
16:41.58user____Pretty terrible standard. Anyway, thanks for the discussion. More items marked for checking on newly set up systems.
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16:42.51a1000system default  here like "implementation dependent",  take a look at ISO 8601
16:44.02user____I tried to introduce ISO8601 time at the company I worked for for 12 years in the 1990s-2000s. The boss chewed me out, he could not get used to it.
16:44.18nemokoollman: hmmm C as a system-wide locale is probably pretty risky nowdays
16:44.19user____It was a small company and I was directly under him...
16:44.27user____nemo: why?
16:44.27nemokoollman: UTF-8 is so wide-spread...
16:44.43nemouser____: C does not support UTF-8 - we discovered this when someone added unicode to our source files
16:44.44user____UTF-8 and C are disjoint in the sense of date formatting
16:44.47nemoand distro compiles failed
16:44.52user____oh
16:44.57nemouser____: I was talking as a system-wide default for LC_ALL
16:44.57user____What systems? gnu?
16:44.59nemowhich is not just date
16:45.18user____Well now C.UTF-8 seems to be supported?
16:45.18nemouser____: major distros, Fedora and Debian, failed to compile our source code because their build servers used a locale of C
16:45.25nemook. that's different
16:45.25user____When?
16:45.29nemouser____: just a few months ago
16:45.34nemohm. last fall maybe actually
16:45.36nemolast release
16:45.40nemohad to do emergency rereleases
16:45.44user____Interesting. Buster/beowulf or before?
16:45.47nemoI'm just saying it's a dangerous default
16:45.56nemouser____: after buster
16:45.56user____nemo: thanks for sharing that
16:46.23nemochanged like... '€' or whatever the person had done, to hex escaping
16:46.25user____will try some umlauts in C.UTF-8 just to see
16:46.27nemoso distro servers could compile
16:46.34nemouser____: depends on the parser ofc
16:46.41nemobut a strict C parser isn't aware of UTF-8 validation
16:46.42user____Was this in source or filenames?
16:46.46nemouser____: source code
16:46.57nemofailed on unicode both in comments and in code
16:47.00user____A strict C parser should not do anything at all with non 7 bit ascii
16:47.08user____Now failing in comments is bad.
16:47.09nemouser____: this was a haskell tokeniser doing string validation
16:47.18nemouser____: I'm saying you can get unexpected results is all
16:47.26nemoI'm not saying it was C the language in particular
16:47.31nemojust that as a default weird things might happen
16:47.32user____Yes, I can see how that works. Thanks for sharing.
16:47.57nemonp. and yeah, I think it's just 'cause UTF-8 is becoming so widespread
16:48.05nemopeople just assume it'll be supported. often isn't even defined
16:48.37user____It's because emos expect 50 year old langugages to accommodate their all inclusive use of Inuit curses as identifiers.
16:48.40user____brb
16:48.42nemohehe
16:48.50nemouser____: well this was in char string 😉
16:58.31user____ᑐᐱᓚᒃ
16:58.48user____that's an Inuit curse for you.
17:00.02user____LC_ALL=C echo "ᑐᐱᓚᒃ" -> renders correctly on beowulf xfce4-terminal with defaults as installed. I guess we are good.
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17:12.04a1000has still a problem installing linux-libc-dev on beowulf
17:15.46user____I just tested beowulf's gcc can handle Inuit curses in strings just fine with LC_ALL=C (no specific UTF-8 selected).
17:15.54user____You can also try it out yourself:
17:16.08user____82.76.46.34:8080/lc_all-c-utf8-test/
17:16.52user____err there may be a "few" firewalls in between.
17:19.29user____ok should work now
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17:20.26user____I'll termbin it just because the server is not always up / temporary
17:21.08AlexLikeRockwhat its  the best downloader for firefox (add-ons ) ?
17:22.34user____<PROTECTED>
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17:54.54xrogaanIs the individual sending on the ML from @d404.nl here?
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20:40.03*** topic/#devuan is Welcome to Devuan! https://devuan.org | Releases: https://files.devuan.org (Beowulf 3.0 stable, ASCII 2.1 old-stable) | Forum https://dev1galaxy.org | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | take offtopic chat to #devuan-offtopic
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20:46.33user_____re: discussion earlyer: Inuit curses and other UTF-8 in C source: I uploaded the test I made and ran on Beowulf, am curious if there's someone whose system fails this test? https://termbin.com/17f8
20:48.08user_____<aside>I love the glyphs the Innu language(s) use(s), they are absolutely great looking.
20:48.57nemouser_____: I wouldn't expect that to fail personally
20:49.05nemouser_____: our problem was, as noted, with haskell
20:49.14nemowhen LC_ALL=C the string tokeniser did 7 bit validation
20:49.37user_____Well you were the one who said it fails sometimes (potentially). I have no way to know what Haskell does with UTF-8, but I am surprized C handles the gibberish so well.
20:49.41nemoas opposed to LC_ALL=en_CA.UTF-8 or whatever *.UTF-8 that all the devs had been testing with before we threw it over the wall to the distros
20:49.48nemouser_____: yeah. C is blind to it
20:49.53user_____I had half expected a warning about non ascii or binary data in a literal string.
20:50.01nemouser_____: what I had been saying was that if you set your system *default* to LC_ALL=C used by ALL apps
20:50.07nemoyou might get surprising behaviour these days
20:50.19nemouser_____: just because UTF-8 support is becoming increasingly assumed
20:50.28user_____If you look at my upload you'll see it builds with LC_ALL=C forced upon the compiler
20:50.33nemoif you set en_US.UTF-8 and someone else wrote fr_FR.UTF-8 content, it'll still work
20:50.37nemouser_____: I saw that. that was not my point at all
20:50.46nemomy point was SOME things might break
20:50.50nemogcc not breaking is not surprising to me
20:50.50user_____Well it is mine since I did not set C.UTF-8 just C
20:50.55nemoI know
20:50.56nemoto repeat
20:51.01user_____Okay, I get your point.
20:51.02nemoif you set it SYSTEM wide
20:51.05nemosoem things. not gcc. might break
20:51.15nemohad no other purpose in warning than that, based on our experience
20:51.35nemoand it used to be fine. this is just a confluence of recent events I think
20:51.36user_____And thanks for sharing it. I had to try it out of course. Am interested if there is anyone whose system does NOT compile & render that right. Devuan any version, but also others.
20:52.02nemouser_____: here. let me give you the precise details 😃  I'll dig up the commits and bug report
20:52.41nemohttps://issues.hedgewars.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725
20:52.47nemothis issue seems to summarise nicely
20:52.54user_____reading, thanks.
20:52.57nemoI was definitely surprised by it when it happened as you can see
20:53.10nemoI mean it was absolutely our fault..
20:53.10user_____Sure. Also good you talked about it.
20:54.36user_____AHA, FreeBSD. There is the error :)
20:54.41nemoheh
20:54.47nemowe had same issue on Debian too
20:54.48nemolater
20:54.54user_____Sure, kidding.
20:56.46user_____tbh, I wrote some little grammars for flex+bison and modified other people's and I'd very much (VERY MUCH) not accept arbitrary bytes as valid input anywhere, not even in comments probably, certainly not in strings.
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20:57.34user_____My work/hobby targets embedded mcu's and there is no room for such things in there. Every byte value has special meanings and non ascii characters certainly have such more often than not.
20:57.58user_____So I'm surprized gcc liked my Innuit destroying monster. And sort of ate it :)
20:59.05user_____hedgewars is a game written in Pascal I gather?
20:59.10user_____Or is that Haskell
20:59.54Wonkapascal.
21:00.19user_____tbh I found plenty of non ascii comments in C code over the years and there was never a problem. Router firmware is full of it, Russian, Asian, you name it.
21:01.41user_____the glyphs I referred to above, a lot of them are here https://omniglot.com/writing/ucas.htm
21:02.17user_____nemo: but nobody was daring enough to use Hangul variable names or the like (Hangul = South Korea)
21:02.42user_____I know for a fact that won't work in any decent parser in use now.
21:04.23Wonkahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuktitut_syllabics
21:06.31Wonkahttps://docs.python.org/3/reference/lexical_analysis.html#identifiers says Python 3 allows quite a lot more than ascii for identifiers
21:07.24nemoWonka: most interpreted languages do
21:07.33nemoWonka: rakudo goes to extremes
21:07.47nemohttps://docs.raku.org/language/unicode_entry
21:07.51nemojavascript allows it too
21:08.20nemohttps://m8y.org/tmp/sdk.html a test I did long long ago
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21:28.11user_____ouch.
21:28.53user_____well I know for a fact it won't work in any decent parser for C or similar languages (C dialects etc). re: above statement.
21:29.23user_____Anyway, keep it on topic. Any specific languages in use on devuan installs which require special care with UTF-8 enabled to work well?
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21:40.34nemouser_____: I suspect rather the opposite these days
21:40.53nemoapps failing in C mode is more common
21:41.14user_____Well I have the grammars in view, flex+bison source. I assure you the identifiers and function names WILL be ascii only, 7 bit
21:42.18nemouser_____: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=874160  the discussion in this bug might point to potential problems?
21:42.29nemouser_____: seems to have been a patch to make "C"="C.UTF-8"
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21:43.07nemopeople bringing up positives and negatives of such a default
21:43.26nemonegatives seem mostly about assumptions of C
21:43.32user_____is scared by the number of things and code(s) which fail reporting success lately
21:46.10user_____Well once wchar_t is a thing, ascii is no longer a thing. I mean Asian non-UTF encodings probably.
21:47.04user_____UTF does try to solve a lot of problems and it works nicely but things like lexicographic sequences, collation, and string length assumptions based on glyph count are all off the scale.
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21:55.43clortutf8 you mean
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21:59.22user_____yes
21:59.57user_____utf16 is I think wchar_t territory, never used it.
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22:43.02clortwindows world
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