| 00:00.01 | fsmithred | systemdlete, how did you install the ascii? |
| 00:00.11 | systemdlete | hmmm. |
| 00:00.20 | systemdlete | thinking |
| 00:00.43 | fsmithred | look in /var/log |
| 00:01.22 | systemdlete | dpkg.log? |
| 00:01.29 | fsmithred | refractainstaller.log? |
| 00:01.38 | systemdlete | nope |
| 00:01.44 | fsmithred | or maybe just installer if you used d-i |
| 00:01.46 | systemdlete | I think it was a netinstall, though |
| 00:02.07 | systemdlete | I see I have 2 devuan ISOs where I normally keep them |
| 00:02.18 | systemdlete | both are netinstall, one for ascii and one for beowulf |
| 00:03.40 | systemdlete | I found the installer subdir |
| 00:03.58 | fsmithred | yup |
| 00:04.11 | fsmithred | is the VM used for any real work? |
| 00:04.44 | systemdlete | oh yeah. It's my "main" VM, where I do my personal accounting, job searches, church stuff, etc |
| 00:04.51 | fsmithred | oh |
| 00:05.06 | systemdlete | it's not a test VM, but I have tons of those |
| 00:05.09 | *** join/#devuan user1 (~user@85.94.241.159) |
| 00:05.10 | fsmithred | make another one, about 12G and install beowulf to look at it |
| 00:05.12 | fsmithred | ok |
| 00:05.20 | fsmithred | try it, you'll like it |
| 00:05.32 | systemdlete | I have a beowulf vm already! |
| 00:05.59 | systemdlete | I use it for testing, and I have poked around in it a bit |
| 00:07.31 | systemdlete | If/when I run into issues with beowulf, will the solution be to upgrade to Chimaera? :D |
| 00:07.41 | fsmithred | no |
| 00:07.58 | fsmithred | not for another year, at least |
| 00:08.14 | systemdlete | (was j/k there, fsmithred) |
| 00:08.36 | systemdlete | I searched the forum for policykit-1-gnome ascii xfce and got 4 hits |
| 00:08.43 | systemdlete | none look related to my issue |
| 00:09.23 | fsmithred | did gparted work or not? |
| 00:09.35 | systemdlete | no |
| 00:09.51 | fsmithred | did you try starting it from a root terminal? |
| 00:10.14 | systemdlete | it gives me a popup telling me that only root can do this, and then I click a control and it goes away, never to be seen again |
| 00:10.23 | systemdlete | (until I try it again, that is) |
| 00:10.34 | systemdlete | I can make you a movie. |
| 00:11.01 | fsmithred | what command are you using? |
| 00:11.19 | systemdlete | I tried it from the menu; nothing happens, as I said before. |
| 00:11.26 | systemdlete | I tried it from user command line -- |
| 00:11.48 | systemdlete | that's where it gives the popup telling me mere plebes like me are not permitted to run gparted |
| 00:11.57 | fsmithred | gparted-pkexec as user should give you a text dialog that asks for password |
| 00:12.03 | fsmithred | which command? |
| 00:12.09 | systemdlete | (I'd like to remind linux that it is MY computer...) |
| 00:12.20 | fsmithred | su |
| 00:12.21 | systemdlete | I ran gparted |
| 00:12.24 | fsmithred | give root password |
| 00:12.26 | fsmithred | gparted |
| 00:12.30 | fsmithred | it should start |
| 00:12.44 | systemdlete | I can run any of them as root, setting the DISPLAY to :0. yeah, then it works. |
| 00:12.53 | systemdlete | but that's a rather finicky workaround |
| 00:13.11 | fsmithred | in ascii, that should just work |
| 00:13.17 | fsmithred | no display messing |
| 00:13.30 | fsmithred | in beowulf, su is different |
| 00:13.40 | systemdlete | I didn't try it without. I just assumed that root would not have access to the DISPLAY |
| 00:13.42 | systemdlete | oh |
| 00:14.02 | systemdlete | wait, you mean just plain "su" -- I always use "su -" to get a root env |
| 00:14.12 | fsmithred | yes, just 'su' |
| 00:14.19 | fsmithred | and you can use user's X |
| 00:14.23 | systemdlete | sure, if I ran just plain su I wouldn't need the DISPLAY variable set |
| 00:14.30 | systemdlete | but that's minor. |
| 00:14.41 | systemdlete | the point is, I have to su to run a GUI program. |
| 00:14.57 | systemdlete | Sounds like I need to plan a couple of upgrades here... |
| 00:14.59 | fsmithred | either that or make a working pkexec file |
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| 00:15.38 | systemdlete | where are those kept? |
| 00:17.07 | fsmithred | in /usr/share/polkit-1/actions |
| 00:17.37 | fsmithred | good luck |
| 00:18.21 | systemdlete | http://paste.debian.net/1160981/; it's the stock file that came with ascii |
| 00:19.08 | fsmithred | that looks vaguely familiar |
| 00:23.31 | systemdlete | http://paste.debian.net/1160983/ is an excerpt from the auth.log |
| 00:24.00 | systemdlete | I think that's several tries. |
| 00:24.09 | fsmithred | what display manager? |
| 00:26.02 | systemdlete | lightdm |
| 00:26.07 | systemdlete | is that it? |
| 00:26.28 | systemdlete | istr there was a mismatch between dm's and window managers |
| 00:27.34 | fsmithred | I really don't know |
| 00:27.48 | fsmithred | you can try the fix for lightdm that's in the beowulf release notes |
| 00:28.17 | fsmithred | that's specifically for the shutdown buttons on the login screen, but it might help with the session overall |
| 00:28.26 | systemdlete | hmmm. ok |
| 00:28.30 | fsmithred | this is a guess. I don't understand policykit at all. |
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| 00:28.56 | fsmithred | I understand that it's a major pain in the ass for me and a lot of other people. |
| 00:29.22 | systemdlete | Along with SELinux, ACL's, and a zillion other bits of security tossed into the mix |
| 00:30.12 | systemdlete | SELinux doesn't bite as much these days. They seem to have gotten the karma for various files just right. |
| 00:30.27 | systemdlete | But every once in a while, I find that SELinux has to be addressed. |
| 00:31.04 | systemdlete | I'll try the Beowulf release notes |
| 00:31.12 | systemdlete | thanks again for your patience. |
| 00:32.06 | fsmithred | good luck |
| 00:41.42 | systemdlete | console-kit and elogind are both running. If they are mutually exclusive, why doesn't apt handle that? |
| 00:42.10 | systemdlete | the release notes say to run "xprop --root --remove AT_SPI_BUS" but that throws an error. |
| 00:42.22 | systemdlete | of course, I am on ascii, not beowulf. |
| 00:42.33 | systemdlete | I did make the suggested change for the greeter though. |
| 00:47.06 | fsmithred | not that |
| 00:47.19 | fsmithred | in /etc/pam.d/lightdm |
| 00:47.34 | systemdlete | well, the problem is gone, thanks! |
| 00:47.38 | pablocastellanos | Tried for hours without success. It is possible to add nfs shares in /etc/fstab? With debian 6, debian 7, it worked. Tried in beowulf, and strange things happens at boot time. |
| 00:47.54 | systemdlete | I completely obliterated console kit from my system, rebooted, and voila! |
| 00:48.06 | fsmithred | oh |
| 00:48.06 | systemdlete | I can successfully invoke gparted, etc. |
| 00:48.12 | systemdlete | yeah, oh. |
| 00:48.14 | systemdlete | LOL |
| 00:48.24 | fsmithred | yeah, elogind or consolekit, not both |
| 00:48.39 | systemdlete | apt really should enforce that |
| 00:50.50 | systemdlete | I know I am pretty effusive with thanks, but thanks again. These little things pile up and turn into major annoyances. It is good to know I can come here to get some answers. |
| 00:50.59 | systemdlete | I'll still plan on a beowulf upgrade soon. |
| 00:51.33 | pablocastellanos | Looking at /etc/rcS.d/ supposedly mountall must not try to mount network filesystem, only local ones. then only after networking and nfs-common, mountnfs must mount nfs shares, but that's not happening. mountall tries to mount nfs shares, but rpcbind is not running, and errors appears at boot, and nfs shares are never mounted. |
| 00:51.41 | fsmithred | do read the upgrade guide |
| 00:53.30 | pablocastellanos | This is a brand new installation of beowulf, It is possible a bug on initscripts package? |
| 00:55.09 | systemdlete | I have an ascii install where I have an nfs mount in the /etc/fstab. It works. |
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| 00:57.21 | pablocastellanos | systemdlete: I'll try to configure my nfs mounts in ascii then, upgrade to beowulf to see what happens. |
| 00:58.38 | systemdlete | so you have an nfs entry in /etc/fstab and you have problems with this? |
| 00:58.48 | fsmithred | I use autofs with my nfs |
| 00:58.48 | systemdlete | on beowulf, I mean. |
| 00:58.58 | pablocastellanos | systemdlete: Yes, it never mounts. |
| 00:59.13 | pablocastellanos | systemdlete: A race condition occurs |
| 00:59.32 | systemdlete | I'm not recommending you install ascii then upgrade to solve this. I doubt that would solve the problem. |
| 00:59.49 | fsmithred | pablocastellanos, did you see if there's a bug report either in devuan or debian? |
| 00:59.53 | systemdlete | which init are you using on beowulf? |
| 01:00.42 | pablocastellanos | fsmithred: sysvinit |
| 01:01.05 | pablocastellanos | fsmithred: Tried to install openrc, it happens too |
| 01:01.25 | pablocastellanos | fsmithred: I'll check if there is any bug report |
| 01:01.56 | rrq | pablocastellanos: perhaps adding a "_netdev" option to the nfs entries in fstab make some difference? |
| 01:02.01 | fsmithred | are server and client both beowulf? |
| 01:02.24 | rrq | mountall.sh mounting avoids those |
| 01:03.37 | rrq | (and i'm not sure about the underscore) |
| 01:03.54 | pablocastellanos | rrq: OK, I'll try |
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| 01:05.24 | pablocastellanos | fsmithred: Nope, server is debian jessie, client beowulf, but a manual mount -t nfs -o vers=3 jessie_ip:/path beowulf-path works. It's a problem with the mountall script of initscripts |
| 01:05.51 | fsmithred | ok, you solved the problem I was expecting |
| 01:06.29 | pablocastellanos | fsmithred: Probably fstab syntax changed as rrq suggests |
| 01:06.45 | fsmithred | _netdev is correct |
| 01:06.50 | fsmithred | I'm looking at man mount |
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| 01:08.12 | adhoc | morning folks |
| 01:08.28 | adhoc | can someone point me in the right direction? |
| 01:08.45 | fsmithred | --> |
| 01:08.59 | adhoc | apt-get -yu dist-upgrade is throwing the following; |
| 01:08.59 | adhoc | E: Repository 'http://deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf InRelease' changed its 'Suite' value from 'testing' to 'stable' |
| 01:09.02 | adhoc | N: This must be accepted explicitly before updates for this repository can be applied. See apt-secure(8) manpage for details. |
| 01:09.05 | adhoc | thanks fsmithred |
| 01:09.12 | fsmithred | apt update |
| 01:09.20 | fsmithred | then say 'yes' when it asks |
| 01:09.56 | adhoc | ok, that is new to me |
| 01:09.57 | adhoc | =) |
| 01:10.07 | fsmithred | because it is new |
| 01:10.22 | adhoc | feature || bug |
| 01:10.22 | fsmithred | https://devuan.org/os/install |
| 01:10.25 | pablocastellanos | adhoc: If you prefer apt-get, then apt-get --allow-releaseinfo-change update |
| 01:10.48 | fsmithred | check the upgrade guide for the tricky parts |
| 01:11.23 | adhoc | thanks fsmithred |
| 01:11.43 | adhoc | pablocastellanos: that will save me a whole lot of hassle across my VM build farm ;) |
| 01:12.14 | pablocastellanos | adhoc: :D |
| 01:14.55 | adhoc | had not thought that installing beowulf, and it flipping from testing to stable would be an issue. |
| 01:17.23 | fsmithred | the isos got made right before the repo was switched, so yeah, it's a bug |
| 01:17.34 | adhoc | such is life =) |
| 01:17.40 | adhoc | glad there is a work around |
| 01:17.47 | adhoc | and you folks are helpful |
| 01:17.54 | fsmithred | apt needing you to allow it is the new feature |
| 01:18.03 | fsmithred | we didn't do that part |
| 01:18.21 | adhoc | did that come from upstream? |
| 01:18.26 | fsmithred | yes |
| 01:18.44 | fsmithred | should only run into it if you were running beowulf before it went stable |
| 01:19.34 | adhoc | I had to upgrade to get access to various language libraries |
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| 03:09.17 | golinux | Doesn't anyone read documentation to solve upgrade/ install issues anymore? |
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| 03:33.53 | furrywolf | I think most people are now used to software distributions where, rather than errata, a new build would be released with a workaround already in it. |
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| 04:02.20 | markizano | <golinux> Doesn't anyone read documentation to solve upgrade/ install issues anymore? <- LoL - no... :'( |
| 04:04.45 | golinux | Well . . . newsflash . . . it's annoying to have to answer the same question dozens of times when the answer is available on all devuan channels. |
| 04:17.53 | adhoc | golinux: If you are refering to my question above, I did search for about half an hour last week when I hit this problem last week |
| 04:17.59 | adhoc | I didn't find anything. |
| 04:18.19 | adhoc | I had another search this morning to see if htere wasn an update. |
| 04:18.31 | adhoc | So I asked here, as I assumed I was doing something wrong. |
| 04:21.49 | adhoc | "--allow-releaseinfo-change" is not in the man page either |
| 04:24.22 | adhoc | From the error message, apt-secure talks about insecure repositories but not the mechanism required to move from testing to stable. |
| 04:25.11 | adhoc | golinux: perhaps it is on the channels because it is not sufficiently well described on the web yet. |
| 04:25.42 | adhoc | Hopefully in time this documentation will be created and you will see a drop in folks confused about what happened ... |
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| 04:28.54 | golinux | adhoc: Not referring to anyone in particular. I don't even remember your question. I am old an grumpy . . . |
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| 04:33.53 | adhoc | golinux: so what is IRC for it not asking questions? |
| 04:43.13 | golinux | That is true. But questions that are well documented and discussed else are . . . well. |
| 04:44.18 | golinux | Not saying that was your case btw. |
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| 07:14.40 | systemdlete | whew! That was nasty. Entire ascii host (and VMs) froze up. http://paste.debian.net/1160999/ |
| 07:15.42 | systemdlete | Note that before this part of the log, there were many dozens of those USB errors ("xhci_hcd 0000:02:00.0: WARN Event TRB for slot 2 ep 4 with no TDs queued?") |
| 07:16.26 | systemdlete | I switched my two USB3 devices to USB2 ports to see if this alleviates that problem. They are only warnings apparently, but I'm wondering if they might reflect some kind of instability. |
| 07:16.59 | systemdlete | Several of the VMs do use USB devices, including those 2 USB3 devices. |
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| 07:43.50 | kreyren | when we will get emacs-27 in devuan! |
| 07:44.19 | kreyren | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/ascii/ascii/emacs_46.1.html what |
| 07:45.13 | kreyren | not even ceres has it yet :c |
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| 11:41.09 | Junicchi | sup |
| 11:41.32 | Junicchi | upgraded to devuan bullseye |
| 11:41.42 | Junicchi | pulseaudio doesnt start automatically |
| 11:41.53 | Junicchi | i have to start it manuall using pulseaudio --start |
| 11:42.04 | Junicchi | i can use xinitrc to do it manually but |
| 11:42.16 | Junicchi | anyone has an idea why it broke? |
| 11:45.30 | zatumil | autospawn disabled? https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/beowulf/Release_notes_beowulf_3.0.0.txt |
| 11:48.50 | Junicchi | its enabled |
| 12:00.31 | Junicchi | ok i did that manually, didn't see the one in client.conf.d |
| 12:00.38 | Junicchi | now no prob |
| 12:05.24 | ShorTie | never heard of 'devuan bullseye' .. :/~ |
| 12:18.59 | fsmithred | chimaera=bullseye Junicchi be sure to use codenames in sources.list (chimaera) |
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| 12:29.17 | crashoverride | any standard place to put the env vars to be set at shell invokation time? |
| 12:32.13 | crashoverride | there's /etc/environment, but that seems to be a PAM thing only. |
| 12:32.14 | fsmithred | crashoverride, maybe /etc/environment.d/ |
| 12:32.42 | fsmithred | I have two files ending in .conf |
| 12:32.58 | crashoverride | fsmithred: sure, but I was hoping for a HOME dotfile. |
| 12:33.13 | debdog | usually .bashrc |
| 12:33.19 | crashoverride | terrible idea. |
| 12:33.25 | crashoverride | I was only looking at /etc/environment to see if there was a per-user definition. |
| 12:33.45 | fsmithred | yeah, .bashrc should work |
| 12:33.48 | crashoverride | bashrc would never work. |
| 12:33.48 | debdog | or .bash_profile, depending on the env var |
| 12:33.54 | crashoverride | 1. I do not, ever, use bash |
| 12:33.57 | crashoverride | 2. bash isn't even installed. |
| 12:34.18 | debdog | there must be something similar for your shell, too? |
| 12:34.27 | crashoverride | yeah, but I am trying to clean my .zshrc |
| 12:34.46 | crashoverride | and besides, I don't always use zsh, so I'd like something more portable. |
| 12:34.51 | crashoverride | but no, not .profile |
| 12:35.00 | debdog | you can source any file from withtin .zshrc |
| 12:35.23 | crashoverride | I was searching for a place to specifically, preferrably defined in a standard, declare env vars. |
| 12:35.33 | crashoverride | I know I can source files from my shell RC. |
| 12:35.44 | crashoverride | I'm already doing this for aliases and functions. |
| 12:36.00 | crashoverride | ah well |
| 12:36.02 | debdog | scratches head "not entirey certain I do understand you" |
| 12:36.11 | debdog | *erly |
| 12:37.39 | crashoverride | okay, you see how .profile is defined as a standard file to execute when the shell is starting? |
| 12:37.50 | crashoverride | well, I was hoping there were other places for different things |
| 12:37.56 | crashoverride | but apparently, just profile. |
| 12:39.25 | debdog | AFAIK the root is /etc/profile. everything is getting sourced from there |
| 12:39.48 | debdog | AKA, anything there is 'standard' |
| 12:39.51 | crashoverride | Well, no. |
| 12:40.05 | crashoverride | POSIX clearly defines the existence of a .profile file. |
| 12:40.29 | crashoverride | at least it mentions it, I'm currently searching for the exact specification; but I'm using a terrible search engine so... it will take some time. |
| 12:40.56 | debdog | hehe. if you find something, I'll appreciate a link |
| 12:41.50 | debdog | says: |
| 12:41.53 | debdog | # /etc/profile: system-wide .profile file for the Bourne shell (sh(1)) |
| 12:41.53 | debdog | # and Bourne compatible shells (bash(1), ksh(1), ash(1), ...). |
| 12:42.09 | debdog | I have no clue how zsh handles things. |
| 12:42.49 | crashoverride | Well, for now, I have https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/xrat/V4_xcu_chap02.html in which is said: ENV: [...] The file referred to by ENV differs from $HOME/.profile in that .profile is typically executed at session start-up, whereas the ENV file is executed at the beginning of each shell invocation. |
| 12:43.08 | crashoverride | zsh isn't very different and it also tries to be POSIX |
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| 12:43.30 | crashoverride | but again, I want my setup to work everywhere, not just in zsh |
| 12:43.41 | fsmithred | The /etc/security/pam_env.conf file specifies the environment variables to be set, unset or modified by pam_env(8). When |
| 12:43.41 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:43.45 | crashoverride | I'll try setting ENV to ~/.envvars |
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| 12:44.05 | crashoverride | fsmithred: indeed, but that requires PAM. |
| 12:44.31 | crashoverride | which I try very hard not to use; so end up usually not using. |
| 12:44.41 | debdog | I think I'll try that tonight. waiting for a chance to have a closer look at zsh for some time now. |
| 12:44.52 | crashoverride | zsh is great. |
| 12:45.02 | crashoverride | so many great productivity tweaks |
| 12:45.02 | fsmithred | then maybe use /etc/login.defs |
| 12:45.10 | crashoverride | fsmithred: I'll look at it, thanks. |
| 12:45.12 | debdog | I know. but there is another factor: /me is lazy |
| 12:45.17 | crashoverride | debdog: honestly |
| 12:45.31 | crashoverride | debdog: install zsh, clone oh-my-zsh and install it |
| 12:45.39 | crashoverride | debdog: and use the theme "agnoster" |
| 12:45.44 | crashoverride | start from there. |
| 12:45.58 | crashoverride | you'll see, instantly better. |
| 12:46.56 | debdog | reads up on that on https://ohmyz.sh/ |
| 12:47.22 | ShorTie | 'instantly' ?? |
| 12:47.35 | ShorTie | sounds like alot of work to me |
| 12:52.33 | fsmithred | I use zsh to start a build with live-sdk and I haven't noticed any benefits. |
| 12:52.54 | fsmithred | but I only use a few commands. I know there are some nice features for scripting. |
| 12:58.57 | crashoverride | ShorTie: it's literally "apt get install zsh && git clone https://github.com/ohmyzsh/ohmyzsh ~/.oh-my-zsh && sed 's,export ZSH=.*$,export ZSH='"$HOME"'/.oh-my-zsh,' .oh-my-zsh/templates/zshrc.zsh-template >> .zshrc |
| 12:59.03 | crashoverride | " |
| 12:59.31 | crashoverride | meh, I should have prefixed the two last files with ~/ to make it foolproof |
| 12:59.46 | crashoverride | fsmithred: not for scripting no. |
| 12:59.55 | crashoverride | fsmithred: for scripting I use ash, dash, ksh and such |
| 13:00.07 | crashoverride | fsmithred: the WHOLE benefit of zsh is interactive use. |
| 13:00.12 | crashoverride | executing folders to cd |
| 13:00.17 | crashoverride | advanced globbing |
| 13:00.28 | crashoverride | interactive completion and selection |
| 13:00.37 | crashoverride | filename expansion |
| 13:00.50 | crashoverride | fuzzy matching |
| 13:00.50 | crashoverride | etc |
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| 14:38.45 | suavedandy | Hello, guys. |
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| 14:39.44 | crashoverride | hi |
| 14:40.16 | suavedandy | Does lid switch suspend the system on SysVinit or I have nothing to worry about? |
| 14:40.24 | suavedandy | Coming from Debian. |
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| 14:50.41 | fsmithred | suavedandy, it's not working by default in ascii or beowulf, but it does work in chimaera (current testing suite) |
| 14:51.08 | suavedandy | And that's good for me. |
| 14:51.23 | fsmithred | well, you can set it to suspend or not in the power manager |
| 14:51.45 | fsmithred | but that setting works only in chimaera |
| 14:51.55 | fsmithred | and I'm talking about xfce - I don't know about the other desktops |
| 14:52.03 | suavedandy | I don't have a GUI anyway. |
| 14:52.08 | fsmithred | lol |
| 14:52.22 | crashoverride | POSIX is hella confusing IMO |
| 14:52.24 | fsmithred | I think you're safe |
| 14:53.07 | suavedandy | Does Devuan have a documentation or something? |
| 14:53.23 | fsmithred | yeah some. What do you want to know about? |
| 14:54.00 | crashoverride | how to refine kerosen. |
| 14:54.13 | crashoverride | using only household equipment and items. |
| 14:54.15 | fsmithred | https://files.devuan.org/devuan_beowulf/Release_notes.txt |
| 14:54.24 | suavedandy | Ah, nothing. I forgot that the repos are listed on the site. |
| 14:54.58 | suavedandy | Wanted to find the package repos. |
| 14:55.59 | fsmithred | example lines for sources.list are at devuan.org, if you want to poke around the actual files, they're at pkgmaster.devuan.org (or any package mirror) |
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| 14:57.34 | suavedandy | Eh, I know how to edit my sources file. I have Nano ready. |
| 14:57.55 | suavedandy | Thanks. |
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| 14:59.03 | mason | suavedandy: You can have the lid switch working with a modicum of configuration. |
| 14:59.35 | mason | suavedandy: I don't use it myself, as I like to control sleep state manually, but half a sec and I'll give you the files you want to edit. |
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| 15:00.49 | suavedandy | The problem is that the system might go to sleep when a script is rolling. |
| 15:01.17 | suavedandy | You can imagine what a disaster it would be to stop a script halfway through. |
| 15:01.36 | mason | suavedandy: Oh, do you NOT want it to sleep? |
| 15:01.45 | suavedandy | Of course. |
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| 15:02.12 | suavedandy | No way in my life. I have Windows PTSD from that. |
| 15:02.32 | ShorTie | Thinkz, He wants to give it a No-Doze before shutting the lid |
| 15:02.48 | mason | suavedandy: Generally sleep will not cause problems for scripts, but you can make sure it doesn't happen. The common way to support sleep is the acpi-support package. If you have that installed, look at /etc/default/acpi-support. If you need to edit it, do so and restart acpid. |
| 15:04.02 | suavedandy | Also, I have a habbit of closing the lid to have a coffee break or something while APT's rolling. |
| 15:04.30 | mason | Yeah, you don't want to sleep then. I set up the same way, where lid close is just that, and I have to tell the system to pm-suspend manually. |
| 15:05.01 | mason | suavedandy: If you observe sleep and it's not acpi-support doing it, grep -r acpi will probably turn up what's doing it. |
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| 15:06.03 | mason | fsmithred: ^ in case the discussion is useful. Just re-verified that it works in Beowulf. |
| 15:06.25 | mason | Now I'm turning it off again. |
| 15:06.37 | fsmithred | mason, thanks. I'll re-test. Are you in xfce? |
| 15:06.47 | mason | fsmithred: No, xdm/openbox. |
| 15:06.54 | mason | fsmithred: acpi-support is DE-agnostic |
| 15:07.02 | fsmithred | oh, ok |
| 15:07.28 | fsmithred | I think that works in ascii, too |
| 15:07.29 | mason | Ah, were you talking explicitly about XFCE not doing its thing out of the box? Sorry for the confusion if so. |
| 15:07.38 | fsmithred | yeah, just a gui setting |
| 15:07.43 | mason | Ah, hrm. |
| 15:08.05 | mason | Well. Hm. One of my kids has Beowulf and XFCE, but it's not a laptop. I can maybe test a bit. |
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| 15:08.16 | suavedandy | If sleep doesn't cause issues then I guess it would be nifty in wireless mode. |
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| 15:08.25 | fsmithred | I only have ascii and chimaera on the laptop |
| 15:08.33 | fsmithred | but I can boot a usb and try beowulf |
| 15:08.35 | mason | suavedandy: It doesn't cause issues in that scripts tend to pick up right where they left off. |
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| 15:08.52 | suavedandy | Also, hibernation option would help a ton with power saving. |
| 15:09.47 | suavedandy | The one that uses the hard drive. |
| 15:10.04 | suavedandy | That option I find quite useful. |
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| 15:39.04 | debdog | crashoverride: in case you have not found anything yet: ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/pub/unix/shells/zsh/FAQ section "3.2: In which startup file do I put...?" |
| 15:39.23 | crashoverride | debdog: thanks! |
| 15:41.01 | crashoverride | interesting read. |
| 15:42.32 | debdog | it's an extensive FAQ, have just had a quick glance but some things make me think I am probably not a zsh-guy :/ |
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| 15:44.46 | crashoverride | why? |
| 15:45.20 | suavedandy | I like how the repo for security updates is beowulf-security instead of beowulf/updates. |
| 15:46.22 | debdog | I am not a developer, no clue about C and stuff |
| 15:46.41 | suavedandy | Tho I wonder why the URL addresses before the repos end with "merged." |
| 15:46.53 | fsmithred | because they are merged |
| 15:47.08 | fsmithred | we merge the /devuan packages with those from debian |
| 15:47.12 | suavedandy | confoozed |
| 15:47.19 | suavedandy | Ah. |
| 15:47.20 | fsmithred | we don't keep a full repo |
| 15:47.43 | crashoverride | fool repo* |
| 15:47.51 | crashoverride | as in "confoozed" |
| 15:48.08 | fsmithred | amprolla pulls the un-forked packages from debian, filters out the banned packages and merges those with the forked (devuan) packages |
| 15:49.06 | fsmithred | I didn't say that exactly right, but you probably understand what I mean |
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| 16:29.58 | suavedandy | Banned packages? |
| 16:30.11 | suavedandy | Amprolla? |
| 16:35.23 | golinux | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt |
| 16:36.24 | golinux | https://git.devuan.org/devuan/amprolla3 |
| 16:36.35 | golinux | suavedandy: ^^^ |
| 16:40.36 | nemo | wait. tomcat9 is a banned package?? |
| 16:40.37 | nemo | wth |
| 16:40.45 | nemo | it's just a java based application server! |
| 16:40.50 | nemo | did someone break its init packaging? |
| 16:41.19 | nemo | that's problematic for future of devuan on about 10 machines at work |
| 16:41.36 | golinux | So fork and fix it |
| 16:41.55 | nemo | *sigh* |
| 16:41.59 | golinux | It's been on the list for quite a while |
| 16:42.12 | nemo | that's kinda linux response to everything, and fair, but there's only so many things I can submit code to |
| 16:42.24 | nemo | guess I should look into what the problem is and how hard it is to fix |
| 16:42.29 | golinux | Set your priorities |
| 16:42.32 | nemo | golinux: does devuan have a bug server for this? |
| 16:42.50 | golinux | bugs.devuan.org |
| 16:42.52 | nemo | golinux: yeah. and I'm going to guess priority for this one is pretty low. easier to just give up on devuan. |
| 16:43.01 | nemo | ok. lemme see if there's a discussion of the tomcat thing |
| 16:43.11 | golinux | Everything i life is a choice |
| 16:43.25 | nemo | hm... no tomcat bug |
| 16:44.17 | nemo | hm. no discussion anywhere it seems |
| 16:44.24 | golinux | Search the devuan channels |
| 16:44.46 | golinux | I know it's been discussed. |
| 16:47.31 | nemo | hmmm no systemd dependency in gentoo tomcat9. that's optimistic |
| 16:47.35 | nemo | so it's probably just debian packaging |
| 16:47.37 | fsmithred | what tomcat package is missing? I thought someone was working on tomcat, but I don't see any tomcat with +devuan in the version |
| 16:47.39 | golinux | nemo: Here you go: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20200116.174138.fff7c445.en.html |
| 16:47.59 | nemo | heh. just missing init script. lol |
| 16:48.03 | fsmithred | I suspect there's no systemd dep in the tomcat9 in devuan, either |
| 16:48.13 | nemo | it's even in the package source ð |
| 16:48.27 | nemo | "However, in bullseye, the initscript has been |
| 16:48.28 | nemo | removed from the package source already. " |
| 16:48.29 | nemo | lame |
| 16:48.36 | nemo | I thought debian voted to not do crap like that |
| 16:48.40 | golinux | Bitch to debian |
| 16:48.45 | fsmithred | removed by debian or removed upstream? |
| 16:48.57 | nemo | oh. good point |
| 16:49.05 | nemo | checks website |
| 16:49.20 | fsmithred | and the vote basically says that they can support sysvinit if they want to |
| 16:49.24 | golinux | Anyway not our doing |
| 16:49.50 | fsmithred | and should accept patches when offered |
| 16:49.59 | nemo | fsmithred: hm |
| 16:50.07 | fsmithred | yeah, it's not mandatory |
| 16:50.30 | fsmithred | I think this was one of those times when it was better not to ask |
| 16:50.32 | nemo | fsmithred: *should accept* - so if I passed this dude's build on to upstream debian, that would possibly cause it to be accepted? |
| 16:51.37 | fsmithred | yeah, if you have a fix to make something work with sysvinit, you can submit it and it might get accepted |
| 16:51.58 | nemo | ah. the upstream tomcat binary release for linux doesn't seem to include any init stuff at all. so this must be all debian's doing |
| 16:52.01 | fsmithred | which is a better solution than devuan having to fork another package |
| 16:52.11 | nemo | fsmithred: well, the message golinux linked to indicates someone made a fix already |
| 16:52.25 | nemo | fsmithred: so I could literally just link to theirs (and maybe make a patch file) and ask upstream to accept it |
| 16:52.32 | nemo | maybe just need to plug tab A into slot B |
| 16:52.42 | nemo | bonus indicates people still care |
| 16:54.38 | ShorTie | gonna be virually imposible to get them to include it |
| 16:54.51 | ShorTie | how are they gonna test it ?? |
| 16:56.25 | fsmithred | that thread also says that the devuanized version was moved to beowulf, but I don't see it |
| 16:56.41 | fsmithred | so it must have been updated by debian and not re-devuanized |
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| 16:57.10 | nemo | fsmithred: huh... I thought you guys applied overlay patches to debian stuff. so those patches need bitrot fixes? |
| 16:57.16 | daniel-molina | hello, is it possible to browse the packages with a web browser? |
| 16:57.19 | nemo | fsmithred: you'd think adding init scripts would have low rot |
| 16:57.27 | nemo | just due to no overlap w/ the systemd stuff |
| 16:57.59 | fsmithred | daniel-molina, there's pkginfo.devuan.org to see what packages are available |
| 16:58.18 | suavedandy | golinux: Lol, systemd blocked. (â§â¡â¦) |
| 16:58.18 | fsmithred | and there's git.devuan.org to see the devuan packages we forked from debian |
| 16:58.41 | daniel-molina | thanks fsmithred |
| 16:58.48 | nemo | ShorTie: I would rather hope they wouldn't reject init script patches just due to inability to test in debian - that would make a mockery of that vote |
| 16:59.09 | fsmithred | nemo, any time a new version goes into debian repo, we need to fix that package again |
| 16:59.44 | nemo | fsmithred: that makes sense, I just thought maybe the process was automated - pull debian source package, attempt to apply .diff - if it succeeds with no errors, package and proceed to testing |
| 16:59.50 | fsmithred | I think it was stated that it's up to the patch submitter to make sure it works |
| 16:59.53 | nemo | but I don't know much about it obv |
| 17:01.42 | nemo | fsmithred: ok. but each new upstream version requires a new patch resubmission with devuan? |
| 17:02.31 | daniel-molina | do you know where I can find documentation about writing sysvinit init scripts? |
| 17:02.40 | nemo | anyway. at least it looks like problems w/ tomcat9 re not insurmountable, and we are ok on 8 for short-term. will just tuck this away as a "filing bugs w/ devuan/debian on a quiet day" todo item |
| 17:03.20 | nemo | daniel-molina: https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/ |
| 17:06.28 | daniel-molina | thanks, nemo |
| 17:10.46 | nemo | np |
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| 17:35.53 | openbsdtai123 | do you know maybe if thre is an emulator for "Sega Model 2" arcade? |
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| 18:36.17 | linux_n | Devuan didn't detect my wifi. Is there something that needs to be done for it to detect wifi? |
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| 18:37.42 | suavedandy | BTW, guys. Where's all the audio. Isn't ALSA, like, built into the kernel? |
| 18:38.17 | mason | linux_n: You might need firmware, depending on what wifi it is. |
| 18:38.55 | mason | suavedandy: apt install alsa-utils and use alsamixer to make sure you're not muted |
| 18:39.14 | mason | suavedandy: And yes, ALSA is there out of the box, and Firefox at least will use it. |
| 18:39.23 | suavedandy | Also, where's ACPI config again? |
| 18:40.21 | linux_n | ok thanks |
| 18:41.20 | mason | suavedandy: acpi-support, and the file I mentioned was /etc/default/acpi-support |
| 18:41.35 | suavedandy | Also, why's my encrypted root busy when SysVinit tries to unmount it on shutdown? |
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| 18:42.02 | mason | suavedandy: Ah, that's a bug we haven't fixed. Easily fixed. |
| 18:42.10 | suavedandy | Oof. |
| 18:42.51 | suavedandy | The amount of stuff you did for SysVinit support is staggering regardless. |
| 18:42.52 | mason | suavedandy: https://bpa.st/RUEA |
| 18:42.57 | fsmithred | add beowulf-proposed-updates and install cryptsetup-modified-functions |
| 18:43.09 | suavedandy | That's a very good job. Am impressed. |
| 18:43.09 | fsmithred | suavedandy, ^^^ |
| 18:43.12 | mason | Oh, ignore what I said. fsmithred's answer will be easier. |
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| 18:44.28 | fsmithred | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/c/cryptsetup-modified-functions/ |
| 18:44.36 | fsmithred | or download the .deb and install with dpkg |
| 18:44.46 | fsmithred | it's for beowulf only |
| 18:45.11 | mason | I've got the ASCII version of the patch if anyone needs it. |
| 18:45.27 | fsmithred | oh, good |
| 18:45.42 | mason | The one I posted was Beowulf, though. For completeness. |
| 18:47.09 | suavedandy | And why when I choose "Console productivity" when installing Devuan the installer can't finish installing packages |
| 18:47.45 | fsmithred | alt-f4 to read some messages |
| 18:48.12 | suavedandy | Is it because console productivity tools are not included with the DVD ISO? |
| 18:48.17 | fsmithred | if package installation fails, repeat that step |
| 18:48.18 | fsmithred | oh |
| 18:48.26 | fsmithred | possibly. You didn't select a mirror? |
| 18:48.32 | suavedandy | Nope. |
| 18:49.05 | fsmithred | un-check that one item and add what you can after the initial install |
| 18:49.56 | suavedandy | Linux distros act funny with my Wi-Fi, soft-blocking it so I have to unblock it. That's why I install from the USB directly. |
| 18:49.59 | fsmithred | apt show task-console-productivity (for a list of the deps) |
| 18:50.44 | fsmithred | not deps - Recommends |
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| 19:01.41 | *** join/#devuan \0xc0ffee (~chuck@freebsd/user/-0xc0ffee) |
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| 19:51.10 | *** join/#devuan suavedandy (~androirc@93-81-61-68.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 20:32.36 | suavedandy | Guys. How do I change the hostname? |
| 20:33.34 | user1 | sed -i 's/oldhostname/newhostname/g' /etc/host{s,name} |
| 20:33.50 | user1 | well |
| 20:35.18 | *** join/#devuan suavedandy (~androirc@93-81-61-68.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 20:35.30 | suavedandy | Guys. How do I change the hostname? |
| 20:36.15 | user1 | user1 | sed -i 's/oldhostname/newhostname/g' /etc/host{s,name} |
| 20:37.40 | suavedandy | host(s.name)? |
| 20:37.57 | user1 | {} not () |
| 20:38.13 | suavedandy | host[s,name]? |
| 20:38.21 | suavedandy | {} |
| 20:38.33 | suavedandy | host{s,name} |
| 20:38.37 | suavedandy | There. |
| 20:38.44 | user1 | yes |
| 20:39.35 | suavedandy | I have localhost as my hostname. I did an offline installation so I wasn't prompted for a host name. |
| 20:39.54 | user1 | localhost is a cool hostname |
| 20:41.42 | user1 | you'll probably also need to restart the network |
| 20:42.43 | user1 | or executing /etc/init.d/hostname.sh might be enough |
| 20:42.57 | user1 | i guess that's it. the sed stuff, and hostname.sh |
| 20:48.26 | *** part/#devuan user1041 (~user1041@91.149.182.72) |
| 20:59.04 | suavedandy | user1: Does "user1 |" mean anything? |
| 21:01.02 | gnarface | suavedandy: i'm guessing he meant to flag you but flagged himself instead. "user1 |" couldn't be part of the command unless the binary "user1" is on your system in your path somewhere, which it's not unless you put it there yourself |
| 21:01.28 | user1 | no, i copy pasted what i said earlier |
| 21:01.35 | user1 | indeed that's not part of the command |
| 21:02.08 | gnarface | ah, i see. most clients i've seen copy& paste names like this: <user1> |
| 21:03.22 | suavedandy | "ip6-newhostname" |
| 21:04.00 | suavedandy | Are you sure it was a good idea to replace localhost with a new hostname, User1 |
| 21:06.45 | user1 | sorry ? |
| 21:07.23 | user1 | if it didn't work, you'll have to manually edit the /etc/hosts and /etc/hostname files to apply the changes |
| 21:07.35 | *** join/#devuan cd (~cd@unaffiliated/cd) |
| 21:08.31 | suavedandy | Eh, it's okay. I just inversed the hostnames in your command and deleted brackets and ",name" |
| 21:10.26 | suavedandy | That should work, I guess. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration#Local_hostname_resolution |
| 21:14.18 | suavedandy | No. |
| 21:14.25 | suavedandy | It's actually this. https://linuxhandbook.com/debian-change-hostname/ |
| 21:14.31 | suavedandy | There we go. |
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| 21:27.38 | gnarface | suavedandy: you should read the /etc/hosts man page, it's not hard to handle customization. in most cases you want to define a hostname *and* localhost (ideally not pointing to the same address) |
| 21:30.13 | suavedandy | Should have just searched for it before |
| 21:30.49 | gnarface | yes, that's a very effective approach |
| 21:31.39 | gnarface | in most cases where debian has replaced something with systemd, the old wheezy documentation still applies to devuan |
| 21:31.46 | gnarface | just fyi |
| 21:32.18 | *** join/#devuan Wafficus (~Wafficus@75.115.86.20) |
| 21:32.32 | Wafficus | Hi there, how do I change my date timezone on Devuan? |
| 21:32.38 | Wafficus | * from Central to EDT |
| 21:32.49 | Wafficus | i've done this on systemd based distros before, but not on this to be honest |
| 21:33.24 | gnarface | Wafficus: should be the same as debian still, but i guess i don't know for sure: apt-get install tzdata && dpkg-reconfigure tzdata |
| 21:33.34 | Wafficus | ok thanks |
| 21:34.05 | gnarface | if they really replaced that with some systemd-specific garbage, that would be infuriating |
| 21:34.56 | Wafficus | sam@samdevuan ~ $ dpkg-reconfigure tzdata |
| 21:34.58 | Wafficus | -bash: dpkg-reconfigure: command not found |
| 21:35.12 | suavedandy | gnarface: Yeah, the manpage basically stated the same as that Linux Handbook article but also suggested changing one digit in the IP address just like ArchWiki. |
| 21:35.13 | Wafficus | I did make sure I had "tzdata" installed" |
| 21:35.50 | gnarface | Wafficus: WTF did you do!?!?! |
| 21:36.26 | Hurgotron | Wafficus: be root for dpkg-reconfigure |
| 21:36.30 | gnarface | Wafficus: just kidding. still though, that's alarming that you're missing that. could be a bad sign. it's in the debconf package though. try installing that |
| 21:36.47 | gnarface | debconf: /usr/sbin/dpkg-reconfigure |
| 21:37.18 | Hurgotron | gnarface: notice his prompt :) |
| 21:37.34 | Wafficus | debconf is already installed |
| 21:38.00 | Wafficus | yeah now with root I'm getting the ncurses menu for tzdata |
| 21:38.02 | gnarface | oh, right |
| 21:38.04 | Wafficus | will changei t from here |
| 21:38.06 | Wafficus | *it |
| 21:38.08 | Wafficus | thanks for the headsup |
| 21:38.36 | Wafficus | thanks that worked |
| 21:38.40 | Wafficus | thanks a ton gnarface Hurgotron |
| 21:39.00 | gnarface | Wafficus: no problem. you probably should know you can dpkg-reconfigure a lot of packages very helpfully |
| 21:39.38 | gnarface | Wafficus: (notably, if you didn't know about this, you probably should try it on the "exim4-config" and "locales" packges, too) |
| 21:40.10 | suavedandy | How is the console productivity metapackage called again? |
| 21:40.34 | gnarface | suavedandy: not sure but guessing "task-console-productivity" |
| 21:40.41 | Jjp137 | that's correct |
| 21:40.42 | suavedandy | Thanks. |
| 21:41.03 | gnarface | there's a bunch of them called task-* |
| 21:41.11 | gnarface | they will show up in the searches |
| 21:41.23 | gnarface | useful stuff like presets for laptops and such |
| 21:42.14 | suavedandy | fbi package⦠|
| 21:42.19 | suavedandy | Wuh? |
| 21:42.30 | gnarface | hehe |
| 21:42.33 | gnarface | fbi - Linux frame buffer image viewer |
| 21:42.40 | suavedandy | Oh. |
| 21:42.42 | gnarface | Frame Buffer Image |
| 21:42.53 | gnarface | someone thinks they're clever or just wasn't from the US |
| 21:42.55 | gnarface | i don't know |
| 21:43.34 | suavedandy | Man, there's so much bloat in this metapackage. |
| 21:44.10 | gnarface | well, that's kinda what they're for |
| 21:44.27 | user1 | there's the kgb package as well |
| 21:44.30 | gnarface | you could try adding "--no-install-recommends" to the command-line options, might slim it down, might not |
| 21:44.36 | suavedandy | Why use parted instead of⦠I dunno, fdisk? |
| 21:45.00 | gnarface | fdisk has no GPT support |
| 21:45.19 | suavedandy | user1: Heh. |
| 21:45.25 | gnarface | actually i think fdisk only technically partially supports the MSDOS partition table format even, but well enough to make MS operating systems happy with it |
| 21:46.30 | gnarface | there are other partitioning tools that also support GPT but they're even more arcane than parted |
| 21:46.53 | suavedandy | If I'll install parted, can I delete fdisk or some packages and scripts depend on it? |
| 21:47.23 | gnarface | not sure honestly. i would suspect that nothing depends on fdisk but if something does it will sure tell you |
| 21:47.50 | gnarface | what i am sure of is that fdisk takes up almost no space so your time is better spent culling elsewhere (texlive packages installed still? you probably don't need those) |
| 21:48.32 | suavedandy | There's also libfdiskl. |
| 21:49.27 | gnarface | hmmm, a surprising amount of things might actually need it now that i look |
| 21:49.35 | gnarface | try this: apt-cache rdepends fdisk |
| 21:49.38 | \0xc0ffee | There is a build of fdisk that supports GPT, it is at least true on Fedora/CentOS systems, unsure about debian-based though (and that's a whole other point of frustration) |
| 21:50.28 | gnarface | \0xc0ffee: to be honest my information on that could be up to 5 years old (last time i struggled with converting an old GPT drive that had some disturbingly resistant windows7 cruft left over in the boot sectors) |
| 21:50.54 | \0xc0ffee | A small pity the authors of 'parted' never included a means to specify the end of a partition by specifying how large of a partition you want, rather than making you break out the calculator |
| 21:51.22 | gnarface | yea but i don't think sfdisk or cfdisk are any more helpful in that regard, are they? |
| 21:52.05 | \0xc0ffee | fdisk let you specify the end of a partition by specifing a size, e.g. 50GB |
| 21:52.55 | gnarface | well, now it does. within my professional career it could still only do block counts |
| 21:53.08 | gnarface | i still run across versions like that here and there |
| 21:53.48 | \0xc0ffee | parted is one such tool, it's something that frustrates me somewhat, as we could have both |
| 21:54.46 | gnarface | well, you know what they say... if you dislike it enough, then fork it. if it's not upsetting enough to fork then maybe it's not a big deal. |
| 21:55.28 | \0xc0ffee | As for 'disturbingly resistant cruft' - RAID metadata left over on drives salvaved from an old LSI Logic array were a considerable pain for me |
| 21:56.17 | \0xc0ffee | gnarface: Unfortunately, forking it to fix it requires knowledge of programming; to assume that Linux users are fluent in C is perhaps unfair |
| 21:56.42 | *** join/#devuan rafalcpp (~racalcppp@ip-178-214.ists.pl) |
| 21:56.51 | gnarface | \0xc0ffee: well, it might be considered unfair but it might also be considered tough love |
| 21:56.58 | suavedandy | Do I put kernel module blacklists to /etc/modprobe.d/ as usual? The Almighty Beep has returned. And my parents are, like, sleeping⦠Jesus. |
| 21:57.33 | \0xc0ffee | gnarface: So the question then becomes: Do you want Linux to be adopted and used by ordinary (non programmer) users, or do you feel it should be the exclusive domain of developers? |
| 21:57.46 | suavedandy | That damn beep. I'll get a heart attack from it faster then I become a senior. |
| 21:57.55 | \0xc0ffee | The latter is the path adopted wholesale by OpenBSD which makes no bones about that point and explicitly states that fact |
| 21:57.59 | gnarface | \0xc0ffee: (a means by which to encourage more people to familiarize themselves with C... mind you i'm not putting any effort into adding GPT support to fdisk either, so i'm just as guilty of apathy and laziness here) |
| 21:58.25 | gnarface | suavedandy: yes, /etc/modprobe.d/ ... the file just has to end with .conf |
| 21:58.28 | \0xc0ffee | Well, on that note, I do have my copy of K&R I should dust off and get back to reading |
| 21:59.37 | suavedandy | It's not the first time I ripped the beep of a kernel. I always create nobeep.conf for every system. |
| 22:02.23 | suavedandy | It's a bit annoying that the > operator does not work on system files if you're not root. |
| 22:02.33 | suavedandy | It's such a nifty operator. |
| 22:02.41 | gnarface | hmm. i think that is probably for security |
| 22:02.59 | gnarface | you can chain commands with su though |
| 22:03.06 | gnarface | or sudo |
| 22:03.26 | gnarface | (i try to use su first and avoid sudo if possible) |
| 22:03.56 | suavedandy | Avoid sudo? |
| 22:04.42 | gnarface | yea, for a machine that only you access, sudo is entirely functionally redundant to su, and therefore a unnecessary security risk |
| 22:04.53 | suavedandy | BTW, guys. Have you thought about adding doas? |
| 22:05.27 | gnarface | everything in devuan is there because debian put it there |
| 22:05.41 | gnarface | devuan does not add to debian, only removes |
| 22:05.49 | gnarface | that defines devuan |
| 22:05.55 | mason | or swaps |
| 22:06.09 | gnarface | well, yes my statement is a vast oversimplification |
| 22:06.43 | suavedandy | Also. How do you shutdown without a password without sudo? I mean, on systemd systems you could systemctl poweroff with polkit but⦠|
| 22:06.47 | gnarface | in practice, most the packages are identical to debian, a few are patched, and a few others are removed |
| 22:07.16 | mason | suavedandy: Don't shut down without a password! |
| 22:07.43 | suavedandy | But I want to shutdown without a password. |
| 22:08.02 | gnarface | suavedandy: (see here for removed packages: http://deb.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt) |
| 22:08.14 | suavedandy | Also, if sudo is redundant, can you, like, delete it? |
| 22:08.50 | gnarface | suavedandy: well, yes but uninstall it, don't just delete the files, that leaves makes a mess |
| 22:09.04 | gnarface | suavedandy: apt-get --purge remove sudo |
| 22:09.15 | mason | suavedandy: sudo has a purpose even on single-user systems - it'll give you a time buffer where you can do things as root without having to type your password more than once |
| 22:09.16 | gnarface | suavedandy: or apt-get purge sudo (newer syntax) |
| 22:09.28 | suavedandy | Will aptitude purge -y sudo also work? |
| 22:09.43 | mason | shorter still, sudo apt purge sudo |
| 22:10.01 | gnarface | suavedandy: i'm not as familiar with aptitude, but use whatever you're comfortable with. if you purge, it's supposed to also remove config files. if you just remove, it would leave them behind. |
| 22:10.42 | suavedandy | Also, I don't have a seperate root account. |
| 22:11.25 | suavedandy | Should I also create a root password and delete myself from sudoers? |
| 22:12.19 | suavedandy | Or does the %sudo group disappear after purging? |
| 22:13.57 | gnarface | well |
| 22:14.02 | gnarface | sudo isn't AS dangerous if you configure it right |
| 22:14.33 | gnarface | it's much worse if you use NOPASSWD |
| 22:15.11 | suavedandy | So. I just purge sudo, reboot and that's it? |
| 22:15.20 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 22:15.39 | gnarface | as your regular user, type this first: su - |
| 22:15.42 | gnarface | what does it give you? |
| 22:15.55 | gnarface | a password prompt, right? |
| 22:15.57 | gnarface | or an error? |
| 22:16.20 | gnarface | i don't want to actually cripple your system and i've literally never put myself in the position you're in |
| 22:16.29 | suavedandy | A password promt. |
| 22:16.33 | gnarface | it honestly might be better for now for you to just keep sudo and read the sudoers manpage |
| 22:16.35 | suavedandy | Then an error. |
| 22:16.55 | gnarface | a password declined error, because you entered your user's password? |
| 22:16.59 | gnarface | or some other error? |
| 22:17.42 | gnarface | i don't remember the error, i need you to tell me what it says |
| 22:18.00 | gnarface | if it's just a password declined error, run this first: sudo passwd |
| 22:18.27 | suavedandy | Identity check error. |
| 22:18.31 | gnarface | hmm |
| 22:18.42 | suavedandy | I don't have a root password. |
| 22:19.13 | gnarface | if you run "sudo passwd" does it ask you for the root password to set a root password, or does it just ask you what you want to set the root password to? |
| 22:19.50 | suavedandy | It asks me for my password. |
| 22:20.05 | gnarface | sorry, i mean after that |
| 22:20.18 | gnarface | after sudo asks you for your password, what does passwd ask you for? |
| 22:20.38 | suavedandy | A new password. |
| 22:20.38 | gnarface | a new root password, right? |
| 22:21.15 | gnarface | ideally it should be something different from the user's password, but doing so would make it no less secure than what you have now |
| 22:21.20 | suavedandy | It just says "New password:" |
| 22:21.25 | gnarface | yea |
| 22:21.31 | suavedandy | I have a localization so I dunno. |
| 22:22.02 | gnarface | alright, if you want to be sure, ctrl+c that out, and instead start over as your user with this command: sudo su - |
| 22:22.11 | gnarface | then, at the prompt that comes up just run "passwd" |
| 22:22.48 | suavedandy | Is - necessary? |
| 22:22.50 | gnarface | i mean, i'm assuming that prompt will obviously be a root prompt |
| 22:22.56 | gnarface | yes, the "-" was there intentionally |
| 22:23.31 | gnarface | ("-" in this context tells it to inherit root's environment too) |
| 22:23.33 | suavedandy | Should the password be something different? |
| 22:24.14 | gnarface | yes, like i said, the root password should be something different for security, but if you make it the same as your regular user it would be no less secure than the way you had it |
| 22:24.49 | gnarface | and if multiple people use this machine, telling everyone both passwords also makes it no more secure |
| 22:25.09 | suavedandy | I also have an encryption key. |
| 22:25.36 | gnarface | having a separate root password is only useful for security of a shared machine if the root password is a secret |
| 22:25.51 | gnarface | otherwise you might as well just use sudo |
| 22:26.00 | suavedandy | That's a personal computer, obv. |
| 22:26.25 | gnarface | i'm assuming the encryption key is only relevant to network connections, be aware that physical access is much less well defended |
| 22:27.58 | suavedandy | And you said that sudo is redundant for a single-user PC. |
| 22:28.22 | gnarface | yea, because it's primarily for not having to remember two passwords |
| 22:28.38 | gnarface | but you could just set both passwords to the same thing and you still don't have to remember two passwords |
| 22:28.44 | gnarface | so it's stupid |
| 22:28.51 | suavedandy | Heheh. |
| 22:28.57 | suavedandy | You're right. |
| 22:29.33 | \0xc0ffee | gnarface: NOPASSWD is useful in a small number of cases where it behaves approximately analogous to Windows UAC, that is, 'sudo su - ' drops you to a root shell without having to enter a password, let alone reusing the same password as your non-root account. |
| 22:30.23 | suavedandy | Okay, "su -" works now. |
| 22:30.25 | \0xc0ffee | But I only use that configuration on VMs I spin up for testing this or that, and they're not on the internet |
| 22:30.44 | gnarface | suavedandy: should be safe to purge sudo then now |
| 22:31.54 | gnarface | \0xc0ffee: to be fair, you're right; what i'm glossing over is my own personal policy of considering that a banned configuration |
| 22:31.56 | suavedandy | How do I use commands with root privs now? |
| 22:31.58 | \0xc0ffee | Apropos to the folks behind Devuan, making it possible and useable - a hefty thank you, because I do use it and it neatly lets me avoid touching CentOS |
| 22:32.48 | suavedandy | Is it like "su command?" |
| 22:32.48 | gnarface | suavedandy: if you just use "su -" you get a root prompt |
| 22:33.00 | gnarface | suavedandy: su -c '[command]' |
| 22:33.02 | \0xc0ffee | gnarface: And you wouldn't be alone in that position, it's a sane position to take |
| 22:33.03 | gnarface | suavedandy: i think |
| 22:33.29 | gnarface | suavedandy: also you can pick users other than root if you know their passwords, i think it's: su -u [user] or su -l [user] something like that. check the man page |
| 22:34.09 | fsmithred | even su user works |
| 22:34.11 | gnarface | suavedandy: it can be used to run commands one at a time like sudo, but the default action is to just give you the root prompt |
| 22:35.14 | suavedandy | Alright. |
| 22:35.47 | suavedandy | sudo group still exists. And I'm still in %sudo. sudo is purged. |
| 22:35.59 | gnarface | heh |
| 22:37.06 | gnarface | harmless, but you can remove it manually from /etc/group if you like |
| 22:37.48 | suavedandy | Will it remove that group from every user as well? |
| 22:37.49 | gnarface | or check the deluser man page for syntax on how to use tools for it |
| 22:38.03 | gnarface | if you look at the /etc/group file you'll see it has a very obvious plain syntax |
| 22:38.27 | gnarface | it's frankly easier to edit by hand than it is to learn to use the tools but maybe read it and the deluser man page both first before you decide |
| 22:38.40 | gnarface | if you make a mistake you can mess up the system obviously |
| 22:40.01 | suavedandy | So. I just delete the line starting with "sudo?" |
| 22:40.18 | suavedandy | Chill, mate. I survived editing fstab. |
| 22:40.37 | gnarface | yes, and delete the "sudo" from the line that starts with your own user name |
| 22:40.43 | gnarface | and any other lines actually |
| 22:40.50 | gnarface | but i'm assuming that's the only two it appears on |
| 22:40.53 | \0xc0ffee | Editing fstab without killing your system - rite of passage |
| 22:41.03 | suavedandy | Heheh. |
| 22:41.47 | gnarface | and obviously any redundant or trailing commas in there, delete them too |
| 22:42.02 | gnarface | there's a man page for that file as well |
| 22:42.31 | gnarface | not a long read |
| 22:43.41 | gnarface | log out for changes to take effect |
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| 22:45.42 | suavedandy | Actually, there's only one line with sudo as the keyword search says. |
| 22:47.34 | suavedandy | Are you referring to the commas which end every line that doesn't end with my username? |
| 22:47.49 | *** join/#devuan yanmaani (~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani) |
| 22:47.52 | suavedandy | Oh, wait, those are semicolons. |
| 22:47.56 | suavedandy | Silly me. |
| 22:48.04 | suavedandy | I need some sleep. |
| 22:49.14 | suavedandy | Lovely. The sudo group gone. |
| 22:55.26 | suavedandy | Can you write "aptitude install -y -R" like "aptitude install -yR?" |
| 22:55.48 | suavedandy | I know it's not pacman but I thought⦠|
| 22:56.22 | gnarface | i dunno, check the man page for that type of thing |
| 22:56.27 | gnarface | it varies from program to program |
| 22:56.50 | gnarface | some of them use a common library for command-line parsing and some of them roll their own |
| 22:58.48 | Wafficus | 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config' seems cool. Is this used to setup email from the looks of it right? Like to retrieve IMAP based mail locally? |
| 23:00.27 | gnarface | Wafficus: it's for setting up the main mail daemon for most typical configurations |
| 23:00.46 | Wafficus | I had the same thing happen earlier with the "Beep" noise for my comp |
| 23:00.54 | Wafficus | I didn't enable it in the alsamixer |
| 23:01.01 | Wafficus | would this be because of a recent Devuan update |
| 23:01.03 | Wafficus | ? |
| 23:01.05 | Wafficus | just checking |
| 23:01.07 | Wafficus | if not, no worries |
| 23:01.18 | gnarface | could be, usually a kernel update i think |
| 23:01.38 | Wafficus | I ask because I did "sudo rmmod pcspkr" which removed it thankfully |
| 23:01.40 | gnarface | the beep might or might not be coming from the default alsa device, it varies for different hardware |
| 23:02.00 | gnarface | usually not actually except for laptops i think |
| 23:04.55 | Wafficus | i'm on a laptop, might be why |
| 23:05.48 | *** part/#devuan Wafficus (~Wafficus@75.115.86.20) |
| 23:13.12 | suavedandy | So I've tested "sudo -c [command]" |
| 23:13.42 | suavedandy | It works only with a hyphem at the end. Don't know why. |
| 23:14.21 | suavedandy | Like this: "su -c [command] -" |
| 23:18.07 | gnarface | i'm guessing whatever command you're running requires not just root permission, but also some part of the root environment, which the "-" is a shorthand version of the syntax for inheriting |
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| 23:18.51 | gnarface | maybe it's just the path though, which could be embedded into [command] instead |
| 23:19.08 | gnarface | depends on what you run |
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| 23:23.05 | suavedandy | So adding a hyphem is the safest option? |
| 23:23.57 | gnarface | yes |
| 23:24.17 | gnarface | it can be before the "-c" can't it? |
| 23:24.38 | gnarface | otherwise you might want to make sure to put [command] within delimiters like ' or something |
| 23:25.23 | suavedandy | You don't have to put your command in delimiters? |
| 23:26.32 | gnarface | not strictly speaking, no, but it is a good idea |
| 23:26.34 | suavedandy | I thought you have to put them in delimiters anyway. Unless it's a one-word command. |
| 23:26.53 | gnarface | well if you put the "-" before the "-c" then maybe you don't at all |
| 23:27.03 | gnarface | like this: su - -c passwd |
| 23:27.27 | suavedandy | That's a lot of hyphems. |
| 23:27.31 | gnarface | not sure, honestly, i forget what happened last time i was messing with it too, but that's the type of thing where it has enough ambiguity that behavior could change from place to place too |
| 23:28.21 | gnarface | ah, yea "-" is the short version of "--login" |
| 23:28.34 | gnarface | you should really read that man page |
| 23:35.42 | suavedandy | I did. Not much info. |
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| 23:43.45 | gnarface | well there's not much to know |
| 23:44.20 | gnarface | but maybe some of it lacks the context you need |
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