| 00:00.05 | gnarface | systemdlete: in your scenario, it's better to just install what you want after it's booting |
| 00:00.35 | gnarface | that way you can sorta interactively watch it run out of space, and decide what you really need |
| 00:00.39 | systemdlete | sure, but what is the meaning of the selections? (checking both the main and specific desktop entries?) What is that supposed to do? |
| 00:01.02 | gnarface | systemdlete: there's these things called meta-packages, which are just packages that install a bunch of other packages |
| 00:01.15 | gnarface | systemdlete: of those meta-packages, there's a subset all named starting with "task-" |
| 00:01.18 | systemdlete | that isn't my question though. |
| 00:01.38 | gnarface | systemdlete: (hang on, i'm getting to it) all this page does is select one or more of those tasks for you |
| 00:01.42 | systemdlete | My question is: Which wins in that scenario, just install xfce or install every desktop |
| 00:01.58 | gnarface | it will install all of them, |
| 00:02.04 | systemdlete | shouldn't those be exclusive? |
| 00:02.07 | gnarface | and i don't know which one it will leave as default |
| 00:02.10 | gnarface | desktops? |
| 00:02.13 | gnarface | no you can have more than one |
| 00:02.23 | gnarface | the users aren't all forced to use the same one |
| 00:02.29 | gnarface | this isn't windows :-p |
| 00:02.33 | systemdlete | so if I check the main one and then check just one or two of the desktops, the checkbox for the main entry should clear!!! |
| 00:03.02 | systemdlete | I'm simply talking about the installer UI at this step where you choose desktops |
| 00:03.02 | gnarface | heh, maybe. but i think you're expecting it to be smarter than it really is. the installer is a simple creature |
| 00:03.08 | gnarface | a brainless automoton |
| 00:03.15 | gnarface | automaton* |
| 00:05.05 | systemdlete | and this is one of the many reasons that Debian is so beloved by zillions? |
| 00:05.22 | systemdlete | or is it geared to wizards who already know how it all works? |
| 00:06.05 | gnarface | it's because there's flexibility here you're not seeing the value in yet, due to lack of experience. i just recommend you take some deep breaths and let this one slide. for the record, i almost never use that section to install my desktop OR server environment. usually all i check is the standard system packages one, because that's the only one i know for sure contains mostly only packages i would have installed anyway |
| 00:07.05 | gnarface | or, look at it this way: Debian was made for *everyone* and you're now experiencing some growing pains transitioning from a novice user to a power user (one who actually cares how their disk space is used, rather than throwing money at every problem blindly) |
| 00:07.26 | gnarface | i wouldn't advise resisting that transition. i would advise embracing it. |
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| 00:07.59 | systemdlete | I've ALWAYS been that way. I'm trying to "embrace" the transition. It's just that this is a simple UI problem that could be corrected pretty easily |
| 00:08.29 | gnarface | eh, if you think it's that easy i suggest you crack the installer code and do it :) they'll welcome patches that are done well |
| 00:08.49 | gnarface | (you will probably instead quickly figure out that it's not worth it) |
| 00:09.34 | systemdlete | So the installer code is not "easy?" Why not? All it is doing is gathering info from the user and then performing the various steps required to accomplish that. But... |
| 00:09.37 | systemdlete | yeah. OK |
| 00:09.49 | gnarface | it's old |
| 00:10.12 | systemdlete | I know. You said that when I did my first install back in, what, July? |
| 00:10.29 | gnarface | yea it's been old for a long time lol |
| 00:10.34 | systemdlete | anyway, I figured out my install failure. It WAS disk space. Just not what I'd expect |
| 00:11.00 | gnarface | honestly, i think you're doing fine. you're just angry about the wrong things. |
| 00:11.01 | systemdlete | the auto partitioning gave like 4 or 5G to /home and only 2.5 or so to / |
| 00:11.08 | gnarface | we've all been there |
| 00:11.29 | fsmithred | I would not try to install all the desktops with devuan - there may be conflicts with polkit stuff |
| 00:11.41 | systemdlete | so natch, the install fails due to not enough space in / |
| 00:11.49 | fsmithred | auto partition doesn't work right with small disks |
| 00:12.22 | fsmithred | I've only heard that it works right with large disks. Never tried it. |
| 00:12.25 | gnarface | systemdlete: yea so part of this is knowing what you're gonna do with it... and 5GB to home would be more a setup for a media computer where the users are storing all their files locally, or a default Steam install or something like that.. |
| 00:12.27 | systemdlete | So the algorithm is essentially don't be afraid to waste consumer's disk space |
| 00:13.11 | gnarface | i doubt it's even that well thought out. like i said, i presume it's based on rough percentages and maybe some additional logic but nothing complex |
| 00:13.19 | systemdlete | If the consumer is too cheap (like me) to give debian more space then screw THEM, not me, the Holy Installer |
| 00:13.40 | fsmithred | no |
| 00:13.46 | fsmithred | select Manual install |
| 00:13.51 | gnarface | i mean, honestly this is something that could change. automatic partitioning is one of the newer features |
| 00:14.04 | systemdlete | Well, it could actually CALCULATE how much space the user's selections will actually require and then partition per that |
| 00:14.10 | gnarface | but yea, you're better off just doing this manually if you don't like how it does it automatically. |
| 00:14.26 | systemdlete | fsmithred: I am doing expert graphical install |
| 00:14.27 | gnarface | keep in mind it doesn't even know what your selections are yet at this phase |
| 00:14.48 | gnarface | and the sizes on the package headers are ... estimates |
| 00:14.51 | systemdlete | Ah, but it COULD know if it asked you what you want to install BEFORE it partitions the disk(s)... |
| 00:14.54 | fsmithred | expert install still gives you choice of manual or automatic partitioning |
| 00:15.14 | systemdlete | I am doing manual partitioning (THIS time). I got burnt the first round... |
| 00:15.31 | systemdlete | Look: I know this isn't anyone's fault HERE in devuan-land |
| 00:15.35 | gnarface | systemdlete: yea, but now you're not talking about a trivial change to the logic of one installer section anymore. now you're talking about a comprehensive overhaul that would require it having the ability to download and unpack packages just to preview their total install size... |
| 00:15.59 | systemdlete | and who the heck wants to do THAT??? |
| 00:16.07 | systemdlete | (just giving you a hard time) |
| 00:16.48 | systemdlete | it sounds like the choice to go with systemd wasn't the only issue at Debian |
| 00:16.53 | gnarface | systemdlete: it sounds like a few orders of magnitude more work than your initial complaint implied, that's all. while you're arguing in your head about this, don't forget to consider the possibility that there might be a good reason nobody did this yet. |
| 00:17.17 | fsmithred | in this case, old code does not mean code that was written long ago and is still in use, it means code that was started long ago and has more code flung at it by various people over time. |
| 00:17.33 | systemdlete | code creep |
| 00:18.16 | systemdlete | My partitioning, this time, gives / over 7G |
| 00:18.28 | gnarface | that seems rational |
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| 00:19.25 | systemdlete | I gave /home 1G and swap 1G -- /home really doesn't need that much space unless you're a dev or a gamer |
| 00:19.48 | gnarface | my guess is the thing initially just was a straight percentage map and then someone was like "hey my home directory is only 2MB!" so someone made a quick change to put a floor on the /home size, and now here we are |
| 00:19.51 | systemdlete | or someone who will be finding lots of uses to create files in their home dir |
| 00:20.26 | systemdlete | probably. But the problem with THAT thinking is they didn't stop to put a floor on / (or wherever /usr might end up) |
| 00:20.34 | gnarface | yes, also as the sole proprietor of the machine, you can always just chown yourself more directory space in /usr/local somewhere |
| 00:20.41 | systemdlete | which is really more important to getting the install to complete successfully |
| 00:20.58 | systemdlete | But, really, all of this is ground you and fsmithred have covered many times I sure... |
| 00:21.09 | gnarface | well, you COULD have done a minimal install and then it would have fit in < 500MB just fyi |
| 00:21.28 | systemdlete | I tried to do a minimal install (xfce only) |
| 00:21.33 | gnarface | yes, been over this hundreds of times |
| 00:21.36 | fsmithred | they make best-guess sane defaults and always leave you a way to modify it. (used to be that way) |
| 00:21.38 | gnarface | and no, that's not what i meant by minimal |
| 00:21.50 | gnarface | what i meant by minimal is literally don't check any boxes on that tasksel page |
| 00:21.57 | systemdlete | Even that shouldn't have exceeded about 4G, which is what most of my other systems can start with |
| 00:22.48 | fsmithred | how big is this disk? |
| 00:22.52 | systemdlete | 10G |
| 00:23.05 | systemdlete | and I'm doing lvm |
| 00:23.28 | fsmithred | and using it for what kind of server? |
| 00:23.29 | systemdlete | which is another way to make it easier for users to configure more space for themselves ("/home") AFTER install... |
| 00:23.44 | systemdlete | it's going to be my backup server (bareos) |
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| 00:24.09 | fsmithred | and you'll have another drive to hold the backups? |
| 00:24.17 | systemdlete | I already have a backup server which has been running fine for years. The only trouble is that it is a very old version of Ubuntu (14.04) |
| 00:24.22 | systemdlete | Omg, yes!!!! |
| 00:24.35 | systemdlete | Like probably around 50-100G eventually |
| 00:24.45 | systemdlete | That's what my original backup machine has now. |
| 00:24.49 | fsmithred | I'd probably just make one partition |
| 00:24.54 | fsmithred | plus swap |
| 00:24.58 | systemdlete | nah. |
| 00:25.19 | gnarface | these days on a disk that small that's what i'd do, too |
| 00:25.25 | systemdlete | I like being able to fully control my disk space. |
| 00:25.27 | gnarface | but that's because i would have bigger disks for other stuff |
| 00:25.39 | systemdlete | y'know.... |
| 00:25.46 | systemdlete | restarts the install |
| 00:26.14 | fsmithred | where you you get 50-100G disks today? |
| 00:26.29 | fsmithred | usb sticks? |
| 00:26.40 | systemdlete | vdi files? |
| 00:26.52 | fsmithred | oh |
| 00:26.57 | systemdlete | the backup tapes are sync'd to the cloud (mega) |
| 00:27.20 | systemdlete | I've been using this scheme for 5 years now. |
| 00:27.46 | systemdlete | I'd have upgraded ubuntu but for the fact that after 14.04, you-know-what started to happen to that distro... |
| 00:28.07 | filipdevuan_ | systemdeamon? |
| 00:28.08 | systemdlete | It was/is working and I wanted to preserve that happy state of affairs. |
| 00:28.21 | systemdlete | filipdevuan: shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! |
| 00:28.27 | filipdevuan_ | oops : |
| 00:28.36 | filipdevuan_ | sorry systemdemon!!!! |
| 00:28.39 | systemdlete | dont' say that around here please! Mind your manners in the devuan channel. |
| 00:28.52 | filipdevuan_ | yeah shouldn't mention demons.... |
| 00:29.04 | systemdlete | not that one, no |
| 00:29.08 | filipdevuan_ | yeah |
| 00:29.17 | filipdevuan_ | i agree, sorry |
| 00:29.24 | fsmithred | systemdlete, did you get to the tasksel screen yet? |
| 00:29.38 | systemdlete | just kidding, filipdevuan. I don't really much care. |
| 00:29.47 | filipdevuan_ | haha :P |
| 00:29.56 | systemdlete | fsmithred: Nope not yet. |
| 00:33.45 | systemdlete | the folks at adelie linux are developing their very own installer (Horizon). I wonder if that could eventualy be ported back here? |
| 00:34.09 | systemdlete | They're building for musl, though. But I'd think anything that works with musl would work elsewhere |
| 00:34.27 | systemdlete | (it's just a thought) |
| 00:35.53 | systemdlete | what is in non-free anyway? Anything I'd need for backups? |
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| 00:40.10 | systemdlete | fsmithred: There now |
| 00:40.36 | systemdlete | It's collecting the info now |
| 00:40.37 | fsmithred | as suggested, uncheck all except Standard system utilities |
| 00:40.45 | systemdlete | right, thank you |
| 00:41.00 | fsmithred | that will give you things like 'less' and bzip2 |
| 00:41.01 | systemdlete | I chose no non-free or contrib. I can add those later |
| 00:41.06 | fsmithred | yup |
| 00:41.23 | systemdlete | well "less" is kind of useful (when I remember to use it not "more") |
| 00:42.10 | systemdlete | bzip might be needed by bareos (bacula, re-incarnated) as well as other compression tools |
| 00:42.34 | systemdlete | ok, so I cleared the checkboxes except for standard utils |
| 00:42.45 | fsmithred | cool. Proceed |
| 00:43.22 | fsmithred | when you reboot, you can install xorg, xfce4 and whatever else you need. |
| 00:43.57 | systemdlete | Is it possible to (easily) boot into a shell rather than be forced to login? |
| 00:44.15 | fsmithred | you mean auto-login to console? |
| 00:44.35 | systemdlete | yeah. Is that just monkeying with /etc/inittab? |
| 00:44.41 | fsmithred | that involves editing |
| 00:44.42 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 00:44.45 | systemdlete | ok |
| 00:45.44 | systemdlete | that way, this sort-of "appliance" box can fire up automatically -- I'm thinking of the megasync tool, but actually, this may not be necessary after all (auto login) because I think I've figured out how to make it start without a desktop running |
| 00:46.15 | gnarface | it would be better if you had it start in the background rather than disabling authentication entirely |
| 00:46.16 | systemdlete | the only problem is that it runs from a regular user, so I might have to script it to sudo to my regular user |
| 00:46.25 | systemdlete | (right, that's what I mean) |
| 00:46.28 | gnarface | you can use sudo or su for that |
| 00:46.31 | gnarface | su might be easier |
| 00:46.45 | systemdlete | sudo seems to work ok |
| 00:46.56 | gnarface | i just mean for scripting |
| 00:47.11 | gnarface | su doesn't require any additional configuration per user to work |
| 00:47.22 | systemdlete | runas? |
| 00:47.31 | gnarface | another good option, though one i've never used |
| 00:47.57 | systemdlete | I tried it, but it did not work for me. Again, could be operator error -- it happens a lot here! |
| 00:48.04 | gnarface | the other important thing about su is that it's always installed. runas and sudo have to be requested |
| 00:48.12 | systemdlete | It finished. |
| 00:48.18 | systemdlete | omg. It actually finished. |
| 00:48.32 | systemdlete | One Big Filesystem. Worked. |
| 00:48.50 | systemdlete | but I did do it as lvm so I can further manipulate the space later on |
| 00:48.59 | gnarface | see, when you realize that you wasted way more effort just soapboxing about it than the workaround really cost you, you eventually just stop getting mad about these trivialities and you move on to grander annoyances |
| 00:49.14 | systemdlete | oh fun |
| 00:50.05 | gnarface | also known as the type of problem that is only a problem the first one or two times, then you just simply grow out of it |
| 00:50.11 | systemdlete | gnarface: Are you an old-time Debian guy, or did you come out of the RH/CentOS tradition like me? |
| 00:50.22 | fsmithred | can you make a cron job so you don't have to mess with it? |
| 00:50.26 | systemdlete | (I have some prejudices) |
| 00:50.28 | gnarface | systemdlete: i did come from RH though the only thing i liked about it was the installer |
| 00:50.45 | systemdlete | you don't like RPM then? |
| 00:50.54 | gnarface | no, deb is superior IMO |
| 00:50.55 | systemdlete | yum (or now dng) |
| 00:51.09 | gnarface | yum didn't exist yet by the time i switched away from RH though |
| 00:51.16 | gnarface | so dependency tracking was manual |
| 00:51.23 | systemdlete | fsmithred: Would it run immediately upon boot? Otherwise, it won't work for me. |
| 00:51.23 | gnarface | that was a big win for Debian |
| 00:51.25 | fsmithred | rpm-hell |
| 00:51.38 | fsmithred | cron jobs run when you schedule them to run |
| 00:51.50 | systemdlete | so that won't work |
| 00:52.00 | gnarface | and i failed to successfully make it through the debian installer for a whole release or two before finally getting the hang of it |
| 00:52.02 | systemdlete | I might start the appliance (VM) at any time |
| 00:52.08 | fsmithred | when do you need it to run? |
| 00:52.17 | systemdlete | whenever the system boots |
| 00:52.27 | gnarface | systemdlete: anything you put into /etc/rc.local run at boot up time, with or without a desktop environment |
| 00:52.31 | fsmithred | could put it... |
| 00:52.32 | fsmithred | yup |
| 00:53.03 | systemdlete | gnarface, fsmithred: That's what I was figuring also -- rc.local |
| 00:53.21 | systemdlete | that's what it's for on most systems, for local customizations like this |
| 00:53.26 | fsmithred | you don't need to log in for that to work |
| 00:53.34 | systemdlete | ^ |
| 00:53.37 | systemdlete | exactly |
| 00:53.54 | systemdlete | well, it appears I have my work cut out |
| 00:54.19 | systemdlete | I can port the work I did previously and hopefully it will just work |
| 00:55.55 | systemdlete | actually, rpm has always had dependency checking. |
| 00:56.07 | systemdlete | maybe the first few releases back in the 90s didn't. |
| 00:56.26 | gnarface | yea, i'm really that old |
| 00:56.37 | systemdlete | But by the time I was reading the RH RPM book in the mid-90s it was there |
| 00:56.56 | systemdlete | So you must have a lot of rings in your treetrunk |
| 00:57.09 | systemdlete | (like me) |
| 00:57.19 | gnarface | hmm |
| 00:57.31 | gnarface | well first of all, yum wasn't made until 1999 at earliest, just fyi |
| 00:57.51 | systemdlete | no way |
| 00:58.11 | gnarface | yea, and wikipedia says it was made in python, which i'm surprised to find out even existed that long ago |
| 00:58.12 | systemdlete | Istr reading that book in Seattle. I lived there in the 90's |
| 00:58.21 | systemdlete | python? |
| 00:58.35 | systemdlete | oh |
| 00:58.38 | systemdlete | yum, yes. |
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| 00:58.46 | systemdlete | yum may not have come along until 1999 |
| 00:58.52 | systemdlete | but rpm had been around for years |
| 00:59.02 | systemdlete | I was only talking about rpm. sorry |
| 00:59.18 | gnarface | i'm aware that RPMs could handle dependency awareness, what i meant was that without yum, there was no real useful leverage of that information aside from your own manual intervention |
| 00:59.40 | gnarface | whereas debian already had apt by then |
| 00:59.50 | gnarface | it was entirely designed to be networked from the ground up |
| 00:59.55 | systemdlete | yum did make it much easier |
| 01:00.52 | gnarface | many of the things i like best about RH were straight up stolen from Debian, if only in concept, but by then i'd already learned my way through the Debian installer so there was no looking back |
| 01:00.58 | systemdlete | actually, I really like apk which adelie and alpine are using |
| 01:01.21 | systemdlete | apk does do dep checking |
| 01:01.35 | systemdlete | but it doesn't do yum/apt type front end stuff |
| 01:01.50 | systemdlete | there's a bit of manual intervention. |
| 01:02.09 | systemdlete | the other system I like is arch's pacman, but that's really the only thing I like about arch. |
| 01:03.10 | gnarface | well before things like arch and gentoo came along, Debian was definitely considered the "deep end" |
| 01:03.29 | gnarface | but you'll come to terms with a greater truth while working with it |
| 01:03.44 | systemdlete | I tried gentoo once. |
| 01:04.22 | systemdlete | I remember starting the build process when I was a teenager and it finished just as I started getting social security. |
| 01:05.32 | systemdlete | (all those questions!) |
| 01:05.35 | gnarface | yes, that's why i came back to Debian from Gentoo, too. eventually you need to get work done and you can't wait for all that rebuilding. though this is also another problem that the speed of modern hardware obviates |
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| 01:06.48 | systemdlete | but the speed of modern hardware also obviates the need to find clever ways to speed up boot time. |
| 01:07.02 | systemdlete | The memo just didn't get to everyone. |
| 01:07.21 | gnarface | ok, now we're getting clearly into #debianfork territory |
| 01:07.29 | systemdlete | lol |
| 01:07.37 | gnarface | you're not wrong, it's just not support related anymore. you know what you're doing. |
| 01:07.46 | systemdlete | yeah. |
| 01:07.48 | gnarface | you know how to make it work now that is the important part. |
| 01:08.58 | systemdlete | thanks for your help and tolerating my intolerance |
| 01:09.09 | gnarface | you're welcome |
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| 08:53.51 | systemdlete | fsmithred: Your cron idea gave me an idea -- rather than starting the mega-sync once, I could have cron run mega-sync every minute. There is no harm in running it; if the server is already running, it just quietly returns. But if it somehow stopped running, it will restart it. mega-sync is not the actual sync itself, just a messenger requesting the server to run and that's all it does. |
| 08:54.34 | systemdlete | So rather than a one-off, I can do this once a minute or so. And then I can avoid using rc.local at all (though I could still do that also). |
| 08:54.59 | systemdlete | So... thanks again for the suggestion. I just wasn't thinking of the solution multi-dimensionally. (You probably were.) |
| 08:56.27 | Erhu | I am not in the sudoers file, this incident will be reported. How can I install Geany that with $ sudo make install ? |
| 08:57.43 | Erhu | if I use su - then it installs as user is root, if I try sudo <command> it is disabled. |
| 08:58.20 | Erhu | when I try su - then make install, then I can not use geany unless I am root. |
| 09:02.43 | debdog | Erhu: is thera a document you're following? just to see what's happening. |
| 09:02.51 | debdog | and, what is the prefix? |
| 09:03.17 | debdog | or at least a link to that geany thingy |
| 09:03.26 | Erhu | https://pastebin.com/P1ft3cQT |
| 09:03.52 | Erhu | Ever doc that I have seen has used sudo <command> |
| 09:04.10 | Erhu | it yet it has been disabled. |
| 09:04.39 | debdog | the prefix is /usr/local. which means if you add your user to the group staff you'll have write access there |
| 09:06.57 | Erhu | that is not where I am building,,, I am building in /home/<>/build |
| 09:07.16 | Erhu | I need sudo in my build directory |
| 09:07.53 | Erhu | I am lost; and not even able to hear what your saying, because this is so frustrating. |
| 09:08.05 | Erhu | take care |
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| 09:08.42 | debdog | sy |
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| 10:23.42 | topro | hi there, does devuan policykit-1 support JavaScript .rules files? I.e. was that backported as upstream policykit only supports that feature starting with 0.106 :/ I'd desperately need that feature for more fine-grained user permissions |
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| 18:02.18 | systemdlete | join #mega |
| 18:02.22 | systemdlete | sorry |
| 18:02.24 | systemdlete | misfire |
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| 19:26.31 | unixman | Having problems getting the repo mirrored from files.devuan.org the last couple of days: https://paste.lucko.me/raw/W0wfQ9h8Yz |
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| 21:27.45 | unixman | rsync: failed to connect to files.devuan.org (5.135.82.177): Operation timed out (60) rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(127) [Receiver=3.1.3] |
| 21:27.51 | unixman | :( |
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| 22:32.14 | tuxd3v | unixman: can you increase the timeout time? |
| 22:32.54 | unixman | tuxd3v, maybe. I'll have to look at that next week. Getting ready to leave work in a few minutes. |
| 22:34.38 | tuxd3v | unixman: good weekend! :) |
| 22:34.56 | unixman | Thank you. Same to you. :) |
| 22:36.11 | tuxd3v | thanks :) |
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