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| 00:18.53 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | D1conf: #devuan-conf https://devuan.org/d1conf | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | You may need to auth to NickServ |
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| 03:27.43 | Digit | imagines a gui tool that enables any newbie user to update a package on the server... and wonders why package managers are not already like this. |
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| 03:49.09 | rwp | Digit, Synaptic? |
| 03:49.40 | rwp | However it is rarely just a single package these days. "Dependencies: foo, libfoo" and all of that... |
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| 04:05.11 | Digitteknohippie | rwp: oh, synaptic lets the user update packages on the server!? um... how? |
| 04:06.25 | Digitteknohippie | rummages around the interface and thinks there's been a misunderstanding |
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| 04:18.23 | rwp | It's a graphical GUI tool for running apt like aptitude, apt-get, or apt but uses a graphical interface. |
| 04:18.50 | rwp | I am a terminal type so I don't use it but it is there for people who like to use the mouse to use. |
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| 04:22.46 | Digit | been using debians since mid 00s, thought rwp was saying the user could use synaptic upgrade packages in the database to newer versions so newer versions are available for other users to install through the usual package upgrade methods |
| 04:24.51 | Digit | i'm guessing that's still something behing a commit priveledges wall or something. something more archane than is availed to the little end user. :/ |
| 04:25.25 | Digit | thinks it a philosophical pedagogy design fail common to all(?) distros |
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| 07:12.34 | onefang | thinks Digit doesn't have a clue about the amount of work needed to get some packages to actually work with the rest of the operating system. Maybe if Digit wrote an AI packaging system, we wouldn't need clever volunteers to update our distros for us. |
| 07:18.52 | Digit | some decade when i bring this up, n get that reply again, i'll actually do that. next time, third time lucky. |
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| 08:00.03 | free_speech | why should a program that I develop on a Devuan platform not work with the rest of Devuan? |
| 08:03.18 | onefang | Depends, maybe you developed it on an earlier version of Devuan, but some crucial library you depend on changed in some incompatible way in later versions? And then you have to update your program to work on all versions of this library in all versions of Devuan. This sort of thing happens. |
| 08:05.20 | free_speech | I bet that if I install Debian Etch (I'll mention Debian now because of its longer version history), it'll also work on Debian Buster ... didn't ever try this, but I bet it'll work fine. |
| 08:05.35 | onefang | In my case the mouse options for tmux keep changing between versions, so my big virtual world project that uses tmux for running the server consoles has to pick a particular version of tmux to be compatible with. Usually that's what ever version comes with what ever version of what ever operating system I'm currently using on my own server (Devuan ASCII for now). |
| 08:06.19 | free_speech | My last sentence does not make the intended sense, so I'll correct it ... |
| 08:06.51 | free_speech | I bet that if I install Debian Etch (I'll mention Debian now because of its longer version history) and develop a program on Etch, my program will also work on Buster. |
| 08:06.55 | free_speech | That's what I wanted to say |
| 08:09.10 | onefang | It's entirely possible. But you can't always rely on external projects your program relies on to stay compatible with the way you used it. This is why distros pick particular versions of particular libraries and stick with them for that particular version of the distro. Maybe backports will get a more recent version, if it doesn't break too much other code. |
| 08:10.12 | onefang | Which is why Digits plan to let ordinary users just update packages on the distros servers is bound to just be pure chaos. Things WILL break. |
| 08:14.26 | onefang | So it's not "a philosophical pedagogy design fail common to all(?) distros" it's just the way the world works. Things change, you want a stable distro, you better hope the distro maintainers put a lot of work getting the particular versions of everything to work together well for that particular version of the distro, and then that they don't change anything in the particular version you installed that br |
| 08:14.27 | onefang | eaks anything that's important to you. |
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| 08:15.58 | onefang | Which is why making a big distro like Devuan is lots of hard work. If you want to update a package, volunteer to help. |
| 08:17.55 | onefang | Letting "any newbie user to update a package on the server" will just result in one giant mess that doesn't work for anyone. Not to mention it'll be a giant security mess as well. |
| 08:19.27 | Digit | still seems like madness to me, to not have tooling to help package updating, upfront, so users get even just the visual cues of what's involved in upgrading packages. just another part of this disconnect i see. |
| 08:20.38 | Digit | like the many eyes making all bugs shallow, many package updaters make all packages up to date... and many a leg up sign post facilitation makes many a more would be packagers more readily become packagers. |
| 08:22.48 | onefang | Feel free to write such tooling. The Devuan maintainers are too busy doing their job to write such "newbie user" friendly tools. We do have such tooling, it's a hard job, it's even harder writing tooling to make something that hard easy for "newbie users". |
| 08:23.44 | Digit | i know it's not as simple as just needs 1 magic button that says "make new package, and make it nice with all other packages", and poof, a number changes somewhere and fairies take care of the rest... but i just think more bridges could be built across the package manager gui between packegers and users, bluring the distinction, encouraging participation and contribution and learning. that kinda thing. |
| 08:24.45 | onefang | Soooo, write those bridges. The fairies are too busy to write it for you. B-) |
| 08:25.01 | Digit | yeah, most places, if they're to cater at all to the newbie, it's in coddling, n not so much aimed to helping them towards intermediacy and excellence. |
| 08:26.05 | Digit | onefang: yeah, i'm on it. .... same as i was on it a decade ago when i last brought it up. n_n ack. ok... maybe i've learned enough that i cou@#~, ack, i've learned nothing. |
| 08:26.36 | onefang | Which is what I'm trying to do in my big virtual world project. Make it easy for newbie users to run their own, to learn how it all works, to write their own stuff to make it work better for them. That's a really big project, a distro is even bigger. |
| 08:27.36 | Digit | accepts a poor workman blames his tools, a poor student blames his sourcecode. |
| 08:29.33 | onefang | "Hey it's easy, just write magic!" says the poor user to the poor overworked developers. |
| 08:29.59 | onefang | wanders off to write todays little bit of magic. |
| 08:30.54 | Digit | yeah, just eeasily write the software that deals with the users who ask for that kind of thing, directing them to the documentation. |
| 08:31.51 | Digit | ah, i think i could do that... i think i even did. ... i wrote an irc bot that answered any question with an rtfg link containing the question. problem solved. ;D |
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| 08:34.17 | free_speech | Back in my personal Windows-using times, I used to waste some of my time using Windows' On-Board - Tool "Paint" ... I personally didn't like the Paint-version shipped with Windows 7 and above, so I upported the Paint of Windows XP up to Windows 7 just by replacing the paint.exe File ... it worked as intended. |
| 08:35.53 | free_speech | I wondered if this worked vice-versa, so I backported Windows 7 Paint to XP the same way - it just worked. |
| 08:38.32 | free_speech | This also worked with all the other tools of the Windows Userland's default |
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| 08:51.26 | free_speech | Digit, are the IRC-bots debhelper and dpkg (used in the Debian Channels) your works? :-) |
| 08:51.49 | Digit | heh, nop. |
| 08:54.41 | free_speech | But quite another question - what would I have to do to chat with whatever device (Raspberry Pi, PC, Laptop, ... whatever) using IRC? |
| 08:54.52 | free_speech | I think this is Bot-Stuff, isn't it? |
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| 11:38.53 | emdete | hi, i am playing with a raspberry pi zero, i installed devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.xz (which works fine) but wonder if that's the best choice. would a armhf do as well? i am not that deep into the arm archs ;) |
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| 11:46.44 | buZz | emdete: armhf doesnt work on raspi1 or zero |
| 11:46.54 | buZz | armhf is for ARMv7 |
| 11:47.01 | buZz | raspi1 is ARMv5 iirc |
| 11:47.39 | buZz | oh ARMv6 , right |
| 11:49.34 | Wonka | there were special softfloat distros for Pi1, iirc |
| 11:49.58 | emdete | buZz: ok, thank you. i just wondered why rasbian provides hf only but maybe i'm wrong |
| 11:50.24 | buZz | emdete: because raspberry foundation is a bunch of idiots with closed source hardware |
| 11:51.44 | emdete | buZz: what do you suggest ? i jsut need a cheap small thing to do wifi and hdmi... |
| 11:52.04 | buZz | friendly-arm's nanopi line is nice |
| 11:52.17 | buZz | but pizero is cheaper yeah, its subsidized by broadcom |
| 11:52.26 | buZz | (so they can get rid of their old cpus) |
| 11:53.30 | free_speech | what about the other <fruit>Pi's ? There's BananaPi for instance |
| 12:03.10 | emdete | free_speech: banana zero looks nice: double performance, double price, double current ;) |
| 12:07.02 | free_speech | is there a "free and open source" SBC out there? |
| 12:09.25 | free_speech | I don't like this "open source" term ... but when it comes to hardware, the "free" in "free software" is even more problematic than related to software ... so ... |
| 12:10.17 | free_speech | "free hardware" ... I see problems coming around when using this .... |
| 12:11.08 | onefang | https://www.olimex.com/ tries to be open hardware, but I've not checked their stuff for a while. |
| 12:13.43 | free_speech | although I could build "open hardware" using non-open stuff like Raspberry Pi inside ... "you don't like that my <whatever it is> is based on RPi? Just replace the RPi by another SBC" ... I'm attempted to compare this with De{bi,vu}an contrib repos on software ... |
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| 12:20.39 | fsr | test |
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| 15:17.49 | Simeon2 | palemoon wants sqlite 3.29, beowulf has 3.27.2-3 building from 'sid' sqlite3_3.29.0-2.debian.tar.xz etc failing here |
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| 15:59.34 | free_speech | Does sqlite3_3.29.0-2.debian.tar.xz have any build dependencies? |
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| 16:00.09 | free_speech | @ Simeon2 |
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| 16:13.55 | GuilleST | hello! I'm currently using voidlinux but wanted to install devuan on my desktop pc. Is it easy to change the init to runit (so that both my machines behave the same when it comes to services and stuff)? |
| 16:14.36 | GuilleST | I also wanted to know if there are any south america mirrors |
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| 16:16.59 | golinux | GuilleST: openrc is available in the "expert" install option |
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| 16:17.50 | golinux | Here's the mirror list: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt |
| 16:18.55 | golinux | Oops misread. runit is available but not an option in the installer |
| 16:22.31 | fsmithred | I know people have switched to runit. No idea how easy or difficult it is. Search the forum and dng mailing list, and you'll find some discussions about it. |
| 16:23.22 | GuilleST | I will lurk some more to see if I find anything, but I didn't see anything about runit in the documentation. Thanks anyways, I hope it's not too hard |
| 16:23.30 | GuilleST | and thanks for the mirror list :) |
| 16:24.38 | fsmithred | golinux, do you know if there's video footage of the hacking session at the conference where they made their own init scripts? |
| 16:24.48 | fsmithred | I missed that session. |
| 16:28.49 | golinux | I have never heard of it |
| 16:28.51 | jaromil | the second talk by skarnet you mean? |
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| 16:29.17 | jaromil | we have still some footage to be published btw, where the audio is a bit restored |
| 16:29.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi jaromil :-) |
| 16:29.32 | golinux | No. there was a hacking session on Sunday |
| 16:29.47 | jaromil | mmmm if it was streamed then maybe is in the stream |
| 16:29.50 | jaromil | hi DocScrutinizer05 |
| 16:30.12 | golinux | jaromil: They hacked after his Sunday talk. |
| 16:30.57 | golinux | Or at least they intended to. Not sure if it even happened. |
| 16:31.49 | jaromil | ok, yes, there was sitting at the table with skarnet and I recall about s6 the outcome was that it needs a good deal of scripts to be adapted to devuan |
| 16:31.56 | jaromil | i'm not aware of any hacking on other inits |
| 16:32.29 | jaromil | as you probably already know a good deal of those scripts is here https://git.devuan.org/66-devuan/ |
| 16:32.45 | jaromil | but is not in a final form and noone besides danyspin has tested that |
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| 16:33.21 | golinux | Yes, I am aware of that project. Just pointed someone to it yesterday. |
| 16:34.26 | jaromil | for the record, i'm quite happy using supervisord in a number of projects... when headless, lovely to have the web interface |
| 16:34.48 | jaromil | it has improved a lot in beowulf |
| 16:34.56 | jaromil | bbl |
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| 17:16.42 | Simeon2 | can some1 update libsqlite3-0 to 3.29 from 3.28 (in debian sid)? |
| 17:16.52 | Simeon2 | it not building for me |
| 17:17.01 | Simeon2 | (beowulf) |
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| 20:16.51 | eyalroz | I've gotten myself into a little packaging mess... |
| 20:17.25 | eyalroz | with gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad (an ominous name) |
| 20:17.52 | eyalroz | and when I apt --fix-broken install , I get: |
| 20:17.53 | eyalroz | Preparing to unpack .../gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad_1%3a1.14.4-dmo7_amd64.deb ... |
| 20:17.54 | eyalroz | Unpacking gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad:amd64 (1:1.14.4-dmo7) over (1.16.1-1) ... |
| 20:17.54 | eyalroz | dpkg: error processing archive /var/cache/apt/archives/gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad_1%3a1.14.4-dmo7_amd64.deb (--unpack): |
| 20:17.54 | eyalroz | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:19.49 | eyalroz | How can I fix this weird conflict? |
| 20:23.56 | gnarface | eyalroz: looks like you're trying to downgrade - you need to find a newer version of gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad:amd64 |
| 20:32.00 | gnarface | of course, this does leave some open questions like, "how did my system get this way?" |
| 20:32.10 | gnarface | usually this is caused by mixing distros, distro versions, or repos |
| 20:32.27 | gnarface | (backports and deb-multimedia are common culprits) |
| 20:32.49 | gnarface | it might be sufficient to just get all the gstreamer packages from the same place |
| 20:33.06 | gnarface | but from where you're at now, if you decide that's not where you want to get some of them, you will probably have to manually uninstall all of them first |
| 20:33.20 | gnarface | either approach should kill this blockage |
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| 20:45.17 | eyalroz | gnarface: Well, that might not be the reason, but - I added the winehq staging repo for buster, and tried installing some of the packages there, but couldn't because of weird i386 dependencies |
| 20:45.28 | eyalroz | Then I removed that apt source |
| 20:45.34 | eyalroz | maybe that was the cause |
| 20:45.37 | eyalroz | also, |
| 20:45.44 | eyalroz | I apt-get dist-upgrade'd again |
| 20:46.37 | eyalroz | Oh, I think I might have added deb-multimedia |
| 20:46.55 | gnarface | eyalroz: ok i perceive the possibility of multiple mistakes here cascading. first of all, i'm guessing those weird i386 dependency issues were because you forgot to enable multiarch before switching to the winehq repos |
| 20:47.15 | gnarface | secondly, you should not be adding all of these repos at once, if you're gonna mix them, mix them one at a time |
| 20:47.32 | eyalroz | gnarface: I did enabme i386, and had it enabled for a while |
| 20:47.49 | gnarface | (as in, ONLY have the winehq repo enabled while installing/upgrading the winehq staging packages, then comment it out and "apt-get update" again with the other repos uncommented) |
| 20:47.58 | eyalroz | but - let's start with: How can I remove all gstreamer packages? (If that makes sense at all and won't bring the house crumbling down) |
| 20:48.37 | gnarface | well you can try to just "apt-get --purge remove [package 1] [package 2] ... [package N]" |
| 20:48.50 | gnarface | just put all the gstreamer packages on the same line like that |
| 20:49.00 | gnarface | but make sure to carefully read the WILL BE REMOVED section |
| 20:49.11 | gnarface | if anything else you need will be removed, don't do it. |
| 20:49.31 | eyalroz | gnarface: "all the gstreamer" - get those from a dpkg query? |
| 20:49.40 | gnarface | yea: dpkg -l |grep gstreamer |
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| 20:50.22 | eyalroz | gnarface: I think I'll take another approach. Will first remove the deb-multimedia and see what that does. |
| 20:50.38 | gnarface | well you might have to remove all the packages from there |
| 20:50.50 | eyalroz | gnarface: I can live with that. |
| 20:50.50 | gnarface | because they're probably all new enough to be in direct conflict with stock devuan parts |
| 20:51.12 | gnarface | alternately you could try to just get ALL the gstreamer packages from deb-multimedia at once, that might fix this too |
| 20:51.18 | eyalroz | gnarface: Ok, that did the trick. |
| 20:51.19 | gnarface | but you'll still be in the same confused mess if you forget again later |
| 20:51.37 | eyalroz | gnarface: confused mess is my natural state :-P |
| 20:51.43 | gnarface | heh |
| 20:52.07 | eyalroz | Anyway, now my agdu works fine (apt-get dist-upgrade ; I have an alias for it) |
| 20:53.16 | eyalroz | I was going to try using winehq repos, to try and get Starcraft 2 to play, |
| 20:53.16 | eyalroz | following the instructions here: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/a/356390/50983 |
| 20:53.42 | gnarface | hmm, i should test that... it was just working a couple days ago, but i followed my own instructions... |
| 20:53.57 | gnarface | oh you have amdgpu? my setup might only be relevant to nvidia |
| 20:54.14 | eyalroz | no, I don't |
| 20:54.27 | gnarface | agdu wasn't a typo of amdgpu? |
| 20:54.31 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 20:55.15 | eyalroz | alias agu='apt-get update; apt-get -o Acquire::Check-Valid-Until=false -y upgrade' |
| 20:55.16 | eyalroz | alias agdu='apt-get update; apt-get -o Acquire::Check-Valid-Until=false dist-upgrade' |
| 20:55.45 | gnarface | ah i see |
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| 22:43.10 | gnarface | eyalroz: yea starcraft2 still works for me in winehq-staging. performance is garbage without d9vk though (and a couple other associated winetricks to make it work) |
| 22:43.29 | gnarface | ymmv (i'm using nvidia) |
| 22:49.37 | eyalroz | gnarface: Which card are you using? |
| 22:50.10 | eyalroz | also - have you tried it with a virtual machine instead? |
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| 22:58.15 | gnarface | eyalroz: i have not, and the card is sufficiently ancient that i'm impressed with vulkan->d3d translation tech |
| 22:58.50 | gnarface | (GeForce GTX 650 Ti Boost) |
| 22:58.56 | eyalroz | Ah. I have a recent GTX 1050 Ti, so maybe it'll work better for me. But... I was disheartened by the i386 dependency troubles. |
| 22:58.56 | gnarface | a 2GB card |
| 22:59.24 | gnarface | if you had multi-arch enabled right, then it must be some distro/repo mixing version conflicts, that's all i can suspect |
| 22:59.52 | gnarface | well |
| 23:00.20 | eyalroz | I'd probably better not waste time playing it right now anyway, so maybe it's for the best... |
| 23:00.36 | gnarface | or the one other thing is you just don't have any of the dependencies already installed, and they're not in the winehq repo to get. in that case, what worked for me is to install the wine-development package from the devuan repos then REMOVE it but leave all it's dependencies (they're mostly the same as for winehq-staging) |
| 23:00.44 | eyalroz | btw - do you know when is the beowulf release due? |
| 23:00.55 | gnarface | i do not. i don't think there's any official due date yet |
| 23:01.58 | eyalroz | Isn't that strange, considering Buster has been out for 2 months already? |
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| 23:05.03 | eyalroz | Oh, it looks like DebConf20 is supposed to be held in my hometown. |
| 23:05.05 | eyalroz | This is bad. |
| 23:05.23 | fsmithred | jessie was two years late |
| 23:05.30 | fsmithred | ascii was a year late |
| 23:05.50 | fsmithred | beowulf is likely to be about six months late (maybe by end of year) |
| 23:06.05 | fsmithred | unofficial projections ^^^ |
| 23:06.23 | Simeon2 | why is that bad eyalroz |
| 23:06.37 | Simeon2 | beowulf 'release' is kind of symbolic, isn't it (it just works here) |
| 23:07.06 | eyalroz | Simeon2: Because it violates the Palestinian academic and cultural boycott of Israeli institutions, and now, |
| 23:07.44 | eyalroz | I have to try and protest, and get the Debian bodies to change venue, while undermining some people whom I know and am on somewhat friendly terms with. |
| 23:08.28 | fsmithred | yuk |
| 23:08.32 | eyalroz | Simeon2: About the beowulf release - peopel who try Devuan will look at the release version. If it's based on Debian 9, then it's ancient package versions. Debian 10 - tolerably old... |
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| 23:08.38 | fsmithred | good luck |
| 23:08.45 | Simeon2 | that's a fair point eyalroz re releases |
| 23:09.24 | Simeon2 | and of course it's anyone's right to boycott whatever they want |
| 23:09.50 | Simeon2 | but the politics behind such boycotts is solidly offtopic |
| 23:11.14 | eyalroz | Simeon2: You mean, for this channel? Ok, sure, I won't open up that discussion here. If anyone wants to say something about it please message me personally. |
| 23:24.40 | golinux | Or post on #debianfork |
| 23:24.46 | Simeon2 | eyalroz: i grabbed a package from debian sid that i need for browser update, which isn't yet in beowulf |
| 23:25.01 | golinux | eyalroz: ^^^ |
| 23:25.19 | golinux | Look in ceres - sid |
| 23:25.23 | Simeon2 | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:25.55 | Simeon2 | i grabbed the source packages but dpkg-buidpackage fails for me (have done build-dep) |
| 23:26.12 | golinux | Simeon2: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=libsqlite3-0&release=any |
| 23:26.35 | golinux | Available via Devuan repos. |
| 23:26.40 | Simeon2 | oh ceres eh ty |
| 23:26.56 | Simeon2 | goes to show how little i know about devuan |
| 23:27.29 | golinux | https://devuan.org/os/releases |
| 23:27.32 | specing | Can anyone explain why useradd makes mode 755 home directories? |
| 23:27.51 | golinux | Noy I |
| 23:27.56 | golinux | Not I |
| 23:31.04 | Simeon2 | should i add experimental to sources.list? or sed -e 's/beowulf/ceres/g' it? |
| 23:31.41 | Simeon2 | i usually ran with 'sid' |
| 23:36.15 | golinux | Only if you want to test new Devuan packages. I have used it once or twice |
| 23:36.46 | g4570n | Simeon2: add ceres repos togheter with ASCII o Beowulf, and then: apt update && apt install libsqlite3-0 -t ceres |
| 23:37.14 | Simeon2 | oh i didn't know -t thanks |
| 23:37.17 | golinux | I recommend to NOT mix releases |
| 23:38.01 | golinux | But then I'm still running jessie |
| 23:38.02 | g4570n | Simeon2: it's will be an FranksDevuan ð |
| 23:38.02 | gnarface | specing: ancient linux default. something about inter-user communication stuff (.plan files and such i think) i change them all to 0700 myself too |
| 23:38.11 | gnarface | specing: sorry, actually ancient *unix* default |
| 23:38.39 | gnarface | specing: this software was originally designed for scientific collaboration on shared mainframes, remember |
| 23:38.40 | golinux | gnarface to the rescue |
| 23:38.42 | Simeon2 | i switched an nvidia jetson from ubuntu to devuan without rebooting :) fun stuf |
| 23:39.02 | Simeon2 | well in the end i did reboot but it werked! |
| 23:42.33 | gnarface | specing: note that "useradd" is part of the generic user/group manipulation set. i think it's only there for legacy reasons (posix compatibility?) use "adduser" instead. it's "debianized" and should have some config somewhere that you can change defaults with |
| 23:42.55 | gnarface | (that's the old "debianized" from before that was a bad thing) |
| 23:43.26 | gnarface | yea, /etc/adduser.conf |
| 23:43.45 | gnarface | everything is in there, including default permissions |
| 23:43.59 | gnarface | actual base files in /etc/skel/ |
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