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| 00:16.04 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | D1conf: #devuan-conf https://devuan.org/d1conf | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | You may need to auth to NickServ |
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| 03:04.47 | systemdlete | any way to mount hfsplus partition r/w from Devuan? I've installed hfsplus, hfsutils, and hfsprogs, but still won't mount writable. |
| 03:40.13 | gnarface | systemdlete: make sure the right module loaded, there's like two major eons of "hfs" and i think there are separate tools for each, and separate modules, and the modules may conflict... |
| 03:40.34 | gnarface | systemdlete: either that or maybe you have to pass a flag to the module to disable safety mode or something |
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| 05:05.23 | systemdlete | gnarface: I am trying to install ascii onto a new laptop (ASUS T101H). The install hangs when it gets to detecting CD-ROM (probably because there is none?). I think I've encountered this before, but I forget the magic. |
| 05:06.10 | systemdlete | It is a 2-in-1 with a eMMC disk |
| 05:06.59 | golinux_ | Don't you have to comment that out in sources.list? |
| 05:07.14 | systemdlete | comment out... ? |
| 05:07.34 | golinux_ | CD-ROM |
| 05:07.45 | systemdlete | how do I do that? |
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| 05:08.09 | systemdlete | (I think you are right, now that I recall...) |
| 05:08.18 | systemdlete | (but forgot how to...) |
| 05:09.04 | golinux_ | with nano but I have no idea how to access it. |
| 05:09.34 | systemdlete | you mean, in the live booted image on the laptop? Like, from a console? |
| 05:09.39 | golinux_ | I don't install very often and have that device in my tower. |
| 05:09.47 | systemdlete | or do you mean in the ISO image somehow? |
| 05:10.31 | golinux_ | I not one who can answer your question unfortunately. |
| 05:11.45 | systemdlete | ok, thanks. |
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| 05:45.15 | agris | I just read this |
| 05:45.16 | agris | https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/11/msg00570.html |
| 05:45.42 | agris | Is devuan planning on adding gtk2 libraries to the project as well? |
| 05:45.58 | agris | if the debian-gnome team successfully purges gtk2 from debian |
| 05:58.22 | agris | what does this mean for Devuan? |
| 06:10.09 | gnarface | systemdlete: try it in expert mode? i dunno when it says detecting CDROM i thought it meant detecting the image, which if you're booting from USB or something is just an integrity check |
| 06:10.56 | gnarface | also it could just be really slow |
| 06:11.00 | systemdlete | tried it in several modes already. Tried to find the repo file (but it's not there) |
| 06:11.09 | systemdlete | true: slow |
| 06:11.22 | gnarface | which install image are you using? |
| 06:11.45 | systemdlete | 64bit network install |
| 06:14.23 | systemdlete | I'll try again later. |
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| 08:25.49 | agris | I am going to fork pygtk |
| 08:26.02 | agris | after I fix omemo |
| 08:26.27 | agris | and fork port gajim 0.16.9 to python3 |
| 08:27.42 | agris | nevermind the previous message about the debian mailing list msg00750 |
| 08:27.51 | r3boot | why not just upgrade to 1.1.3?? |
| 08:28.02 | r3boot | gajim is already python3 |
| 08:28.27 | agris | r3boot, because 1.x is gtk3 only, and full of more bugs |
| 08:28.52 | agris | I have no intention whatsoever to use gtk3 and have already backported programs I need back to gtk2 |
| 08:28.53 | r3boot | Right, and you submitted bugreports for that and those got unaswered / marked as wont-fix? |
| 08:29.04 | r3boot | ah, okay, well, gl then :) |
| 08:29.13 | agris | yes |
| 08:29.54 | agris | r3boot, Gajim 0.16.9 does (almost) everything I need it to and the few bugs it does have are known and the solution clear |
| 08:30.19 | agris | so I've been working fixing those few bugs |
| 08:32.23 | agris | I'd rather fix what I already have and know it's strongpoints + weaknesses than attempt to make gajim 1.x fit my needs and deal with the hundreds of bugs that major gtk change brought upon to the project with it |
| 08:33.36 | Centurion_Dan | agris: I think along with doing that you'll need to fork gtk2 to maintain it sometime soon... If it's maintained as a fork then Debian is less likely to kick it, although there appears a clear intention to do so regardless. |
| 08:36.42 | Centurion_Dan | AIUI gtk3 is a mess and each point release breaks API and ABI compatibility with previous releases in some way meaning that some packages need to be patched and upgraded in order to continue to work reliably. That seems a rather insane approach... |
| 08:36.50 | agris | Centurion_Dan, as far as I am aware there is no better option. gtk2 is probably the smallest toolkit while still retaining all the features I need and the only other realistic option is to use Motif |
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| 08:37.27 | agris | I figure maintaining gtk2 may be easier than dealing with gtk3 |
| 08:37.42 | agris | because it's already had a decade's worth of bugfixes |
| 08:37.50 | agris | and no new features |
| 08:37.51 | r3boot | Can i checkout your codebase somewhere? I'd love to test |
| 08:38.24 | Centurion_Dan | call it 4kdgtk |
| 08:38.46 | onefang | lol |
| 08:39.37 | agris | why not keep it called gtk2. It's not Mozilla licensed or anything |
| 08:40.33 | r3boot | because that'll run into naming conflicts with gtk2, likely |
| 08:40.59 | agris | well I won't need to do this until gtk2 /actually/ becomes unmaintained |
| 08:41.14 | agris | because right now it still receives git commits to a special branch for bugfixes only |
| 08:42.35 | agris | and my goal is to provide gtk2, not to change it in some incompatible way |
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| 08:59.54 | agris | Centurion_Dan, what is the thought process behind that name? |
| 09:00.26 | Centurion_Dan | forked gnome toolkit |
| 09:00.31 | Centurion_Dan | ;-) |
| 09:00.34 | onefang | This is why I loled, I figured non many people would get it. 4kd = forked. |
| 09:00.44 | agris | heheh |
| 09:01.12 | agris | although I think it's more accurate calling it forked gimp toolkit. still a g though |
| 09:03.11 | Centurion_Dan | could also consider gtkng - which could imply multiple interpretations like "gimp toolkit not gnomed", "gimp toolkit next generation" |
| 09:04.55 | onefang | Gimp ToolKit, Not Glimpse. |
| 09:18.06 | agris | not gnomed. I like that |
| 09:19.39 | agris | I am building a fresh coreboot |
| 09:19.46 | agris | they are on GCC 8.3.0 now |
| 09:20.01 | agris | super exciting |
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| 14:00.50 | lifebook | hi! with only 256 MB of ram, beowulf with 4.19 linux is slow and does use swap a lot |
| 14:00.50 | lifebook | however, beowulf with 4.9 linux (from ascii) runs faster, yet less secure (spectre...) |
| 14:00.50 | lifebook | any advice? |
| 14:11.53 | r3boot | Install more ram? |
| 14:12.55 | r3boot | Alternatively, if that is not an option, install a lightweight OS, like NetBSD or OpenBSD |
| 14:14.48 | lifebook | thanks @r3boot :) |
| 14:15.34 | lifebook | suppose linux is the one and only choice |
| 14:15.52 | r3boot | not the one and only, but it is a choice, yes :) |
| 14:16.33 | r3boot | To run linux comfortably, 512MB of ram is very much needed. Recommended is to run with atleast 1GB |
| 14:16.42 | r3boot | especially with modern kernels |
| 14:17.44 | lifebook | do the IoT world use 512MB of ram? |
| 14:19.24 | r3boot | an esp runs with 320KiB of ram, but those dont run linux. An average arduino has like, 32k of memory |
| 14:19.40 | r3boot | ah, too late :) |
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| 14:20.56 | lifebook | actually, i've tried to find the root cause, with no luck |
| 14:21.37 | fsmithred | are you using a window manager? |
| 14:21.49 | r3boot | To come back on your question wrt IoT and ram usage: |
| 14:21.50 | r3boot | 16:19 < r3boot> an esp runs with 320KiB of ram, but those dont run linux. An average arduino has like, 32k of memory |
| 14:22.53 | lifebook | @fsmithred openbox wm |
| 14:22.53 | lifebook | note that even aptitude triggers the swap |
| 14:24.31 | r3boot | On what hardware is this? |
| 14:27.04 | lifebook | @r3boot a laptop fujitsu siemens lifebook c1020 |
| 14:27.04 | lifebook | CPU intel celeron 2 GHz (32 bit) |
| 14:27.24 | fsmithred | I like to use ps_mem.py to see how much memory each program uses. Could also do it with top or htop. |
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| 14:29.05 | r3boot | Mja, seriously? Try OpenBSD. You can probably get this to work with linux, dont get me wrong, but the amount of efford you'll need to invest is pretty big. |
| 14:30.07 | lifebook | @r3boot with the right config, firefox runs well, yet with 4.9 linux |
| 14:30.32 | fsmithred | There are lighter window managers: icewm, jwm for example. |
| 14:30.55 | lifebook | @fsmithred where can one find ps_mem.py? |
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| 14:31.15 | fsmithred | not for long. I read recently that newer versions of firefox will require 1 or 2 GB memory |
| 14:31.20 | fsmithred | I'll check... |
| 14:31.39 | sasquatch | why not use (h)top and sort by size? |
| 14:32.09 | sasquatch | it#s probably smaller than running a python to get the sizes |
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| 14:33.31 | fsmithred | sasquatch, do you happen to know the option to use for that? |
| 14:33.52 | fsmithred | lifebook, https://github.com/pixelb/ps_mem |
| 14:34.03 | r3boot | ps -o vsz,rss,comm |
| 14:34.10 | r3boot | that'll give you just the memory details |
| 14:34.11 | fsmithred | I've only used ps_mem.py. I don't know what the other files are. |
| 14:34.16 | r3boot | no need for 3rd party tools ;) |
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| 14:35.04 | lifebook | @fsmithred @r3boot thanks :) |
| 14:35.30 | fsmithred | hm, that command doesn't do what I want when I run it over ssh. |
| 14:36.07 | lifebook | i think this is related to memory management |
| 14:36.07 | lifebook | 4.9 and 4.19 do not manage memory the same way |
| 14:36.22 | x3dre | Is it possible to downgrade from ascii to jessie ? |
| 14:36.35 | r3boot | fsmithred: if you dont specify any additional options, it will only show the processes in your current process group. You can add (say) ax to the commandline to get a more full listing |
| 14:36.40 | x3dre | If so can you point me to the documentation ? |
| 14:36.42 | sasquatch | ps is as 3rd party as top... .-P from same package |
| 14:37.00 | r3boot | sasquatch: this was in reference to htop and ps_mem |
| 14:37.52 | sasquatch | ...(h)top... |
| 14:37.54 | fsmithred | x3dre, you would have to pin jessie packages to 1001 then update and upgrade, but why would you want to do that? |
| 14:38.19 | r3boot | sasquatch: yes, and top is part of psutils, but htop is not |
| 14:38.34 | r3boot | .. or am I mistaking here, could be |
| 14:38.50 | r3boot | ah, no, not part of psutils :) |
| 14:39.37 | fsmithred | it's in procps |
| 14:39.56 | fsmithred | that's what apt-file tells me |
| 14:39.59 | x3dre | Because I have two latops one with the older jessie and the other with ascii and the stable version runs well it seems, where the ascii seems to be missing dependencies ... |
| 14:40.25 | r3boot | fsmithred: is that something devuan specific? If I look at debian, htop is in a dedicated package: https://packages.debian.org/buster/htop |
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| 14:40.49 | fsmithred | r3boot, "it" referred to /usr/bin/top |
| 14:40.53 | r3boot | aaaah |
| 14:40.56 | fsmithred | yes, htop is its own package |
| 14:41.09 | sasquatch | and very user friendly... |
| 14:41.42 | lifebook | by ram : pidgin, nm-applet, Xorg |
| 14:41.51 | r3boot | uses UNIX tools mostly, so I would not know tbh :] |
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| 14:42.11 | r3boot | eg, ps is just fine, since that gives all the info I need |
| 14:42.38 | fsmithred | s/pidgin/irssi/, s/nm-applet/?(maybe nothing)/ |
| 14:43.09 | fsmithred | setnet.sh |
| 14:43.16 | r3boot | yeah, you can skip networkmanager if you properly configure /etc/network/interfaces and wpa_supplicant |
| 14:43.41 | fsmithred | setnet in the repo is lightweight (curses) |
| 14:44.02 | fsmithred | there are curses or cli versions of wicd and I think network-manager |
| 14:44.09 | fsmithred | and yeah, lightest is none of those |
| 14:44.54 | lifebook | aptitude uses curses however with 4.19 kernel as soon as it plays with database then it triggers the swap |
| 14:44.59 | r3boot | the only thing you really need to configure for almost all desktops (excluding special setups), is dhcp + working wireless. dhcp is a static configuration (from the PoV of the OS), so no need for a manager for that. Wireless is a one-time editing of a configuration file |
| 14:45.31 | r3boot | So personally, I'd bite the bullet, learn how networking works, configure it, and be done with it :) |
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| 14:46.48 | lifebook | with this swap trouble, i've learned a bit about linux and the scheduler |
| 14:48.11 | lifebook | it feels like linux 4.19 is running with a friend |
| 14:48.18 | fsmithred | you might try messing with swappiness setting |
| 14:48.42 | fsmithred | gotta go. bbl. |
| 14:49.17 | lifebook | thank you @fsmithred |
| 14:50.56 | lifebook | i did not try with linux from backports |
| 14:50.57 | lifebook | i should do that, maybe |
| 15:03.39 | lifebook | can't wait for the beowulf release :-D |
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| 15:17.58 | james1138 | (y) |
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| 15:29.59 | nemo | hm... somehow I missed the knoppix news |
| 15:30.03 | nemo | I'm guessing rest of channel did not |
| 15:31.01 | Wonka | I don't know what you're talking about? |
| 15:31.02 | golinux | nemo: Yeah . . . a lot of it was on #debianfork (where it should be) |
| 15:31.23 | golinux | This is not the Knoppix channel. ;) |
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| 15:38.59 | nemo | golinux: heh. |
| 15:39.14 | nemo | golinux: I wasn't on the #debianfork channel, nor the knoppix channel, thus I was trying to keep my commentary light |
| 15:39.22 | nemo | it was mostly a \o/ for reinforcements for devuan |
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| 16:27.04 | nemo | so. I might be forced to switch a bunch of dev servers at work from Devuan to Debian because the backup solution provider does not officially support Devuan |
| 16:27.31 | nemo | nevermind the fact that probably the only thing missing is an init script, and maybe not even that. It's about checklists and I may not get a choice |
| 16:28.05 | nemo | we'll see, but to be defensive... is the best option to stand up a clean new instance, or could I possibly switch over in /etc/apt ? |
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| 16:29.40 | nemo | and yes I'm not happy about this either â¹ |
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| 19:29.37 | kiwi_51 | hello I m fighting the hibernation fall out on my computer, so I believed devuan a fairer seat, is it? |
| 19:31.44 | gnarface | no way to know for you without trying it |
| 19:31.51 | gnarface | there is a live image though |
| 19:33.15 | golinux | Can you hibernate a live image? |
| 19:34.55 | kiwi_51 | golinux: pardon? "hibernate a live image" what do you mean? |
| 19:34.56 | gnarface | i assumed so, but i guess that could be naive. |
| 19:35.11 | gnarface | you'd have to have enough swap already allocated |
| 19:35.59 | golinux | fsmithred needs to answer that. |
| 19:36.29 | golinux | I always just suspend. Hibernation can be tricky. |
| 19:36.33 | fsmithred | I think so. |
| 19:36.45 | fsmithred | you need to have and use the swap |
| 19:37.01 | fsmithred | might need to add a boot option |
| 19:37.12 | fsmithred | hang on... |
| 19:37.36 | fsmithred | swap=true |
| 19:37.59 | fsmithred | if you're booting legacy bios, press TAB to edit the isolinux boot menu |
| 19:38.13 | fsmithred | if you're booting uefi, press e to edit the grub boot menu |
| 19:38.28 | fsmithred | kiwi_51, ^^^ |
| 19:40.29 | kiwi_51 | ok, thank you, then I see if hibernation works on devuan live cd. |
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| 19:42.22 | debdog | kiwi_51: what hardware? I am fightinh a similar issue |
| 19:42.22 | fsmithred | what kind of problems are you having with hibernation? |
| 19:42.28 | kiwi_51 | And the hibernation problem is touched by the systemd issue, what do you mean? |
| 19:43.07 | gnarface | just let him try it first guys |
| 19:43.11 | gnarface | there's no way of knowing otherwise |
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| 19:44.04 | gnarface | kiwi_51: we're all wondering if your issue is a kernel issue or a userspace support issue. but we can only really collectively guess until you provide some clear test results |
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| 19:44.40 | gnarface | kiwi_51: if it is the former, then devuan won't behave any differently from debian. if it is the latter, then maybe we can help where systemd failedyou. |
| 19:44.52 | gnarface | that's only a maybe |
| 19:44.55 | gnarface | but you're not alone either way |
| 19:46.31 | gnarface | if it is very new hardware, the kernel issue may be more likely |
| 19:47.20 | kiwi_51 | It already functioned. |
| 19:47.40 | gnarface | you mean it used to work? that is a good sign |
| 19:47.40 | kiwi_51 | I will do as you told me. |
| 19:47.54 | kiwi_51 | yes. |
| 19:48.56 | kiwi_51 | a lot thanks. |
| 19:49.21 | gnarface | good luck |
| 19:49.44 | kiwi_51 | I come back with test results after installation... |
| 19:50.04 | gnarface | kiwi_51: to be clear: do not install with the livecd |
| 19:50.06 | gnarface | just boot it |
| 19:50.16 | gnarface | then test hibernate |
| 19:54.42 | gnarface | (expect it to be a little slow) |
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