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| 00:16.48 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | D1conf: #devuan-conf https://devuan.org/d1conf | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | You may need to auth to NickServ |
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| 01:08.56 | scuti | hi, can i ask a quick question? i have to leave in about 20 minutes |
| 01:09.49 | scuti | i cant get wicd-gtk to display wireless networks; i can get wicd-curses to display wireless networks, but none appear on wicd-gtk |
| 01:10.26 | scuti | about the last months i've used this devuan install, i had to use iw to get wireless on my laptop |
| 01:10.40 | poontangmessiah | scuti: |
| 01:10.45 | poontangmessiah | sudo apt purge wicd |
| 01:10.52 | poontangmessiah | sudo apt install network-manager |
| 01:11.14 | scuti | so, just dont use wicd? |
| 01:11.18 | poontangmessiah | this is the only advice i can give because wicd is truly trash on every distro i used |
| 01:11.57 | scuti | i suppose since i'm having to much issues with it currently |
| 01:12.10 | scuti | only used it since it came with devuan's dvd install i recall |
| 01:20.16 | scuti | ok thanks this is less hassle than wicd |
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| 01:42.53 | gnarface | poontangmessiah: at least make sure they're updated first. |
| 01:43.08 | gnarface | poontangmessiah: known bugs have been fixed, and it's not like network-manager doesn't also suck. |
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| 01:44.24 | golinux | network-manager sucks more |
| 01:45.07 | poontangmessiah | gnarface golinux explain why |
| 01:45.20 | poontangmessiah | i've never had netman screw up on me, not even once |
| 01:45.42 | poontangmessiah | except maybe once but that was my router's fault anyway |
| 01:51.37 | gnarface | i used to be a redhat user from back when they first introduced it. i think you just don't have enough experience to fill the chart with enough data points to draw accurate lines. |
| 01:52.16 | gnarface | most the issues users have had with wicd have been self-inflicted |
| 01:52.47 | gnarface | that said, i'd advise users to learn to manipulate the /etc/network/interfaces file directly instead of either |
| 01:53.49 | gnarface | i mean, if you're going to take a stance based on reliability, take the right stance at least |
| 01:54.27 | onefang | The only issue I have with wicd is that it'll reorder lines in it's own config file each time I reboot, which wouldn't be a problem except I also use etckeeper. |
| 01:54.27 | gnarface | but it's really important to make sure people have at least got the latest updates and try to diagnose the problem if it's unknown |
| 01:54.47 | gnarface | because now we don't actually know if there's a new issue with wicd or not |
| 01:55.33 | gnarface | and it's something that enough people have used successfully that it was very problably either self-inflicted or a really weird corner-case |
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| 02:24.10 | onefang | Though scuti wanted a quick answer, coz they had to leave in 20 minutes. Scuti got a quick answer that satisfied them. shrugs |
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| 02:31.11 | gnarface | well, i was thinking maybe just user error, like not turning the wifi on first, or maybe there was actually a bug but one that had been fixed in the repos, and he just hadn't updated yet |
| 02:31.47 | gnarface | it rang a bell, like something that other users had gotten confused about |
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| 04:20.22 | klaus | what would be the equivalent of /etc/systemd/logind.conf on a systemd free system ? |
| 04:20.45 | klaus | i used to use that file to modifiy behavior of my power key: HandlePowerKey=ignore |
| 04:21.13 | klaus | in case of me pressing it by mistake so the system wouldn't go to immediate shutdown without warning.. |
| 04:22.47 | gnarface | klaus: should be handled by acpi |
| 04:23.32 | gnarface | it feeds off bios defaults though, so you might be getting this behavior even if it's not installed |
| 04:24.08 | gnarface | and it's typical that this is a feature you can change in the bios too |
| 04:24.35 | gnarface | (some really old machines use apm for this) |
| 04:24.56 | klaus | i don't have bios access on this machine, it's a macbook |
| 04:25.08 | gnarface | oh, well that makes it trickier |
| 04:25.28 | klaus | yes, mac are a pain about that |
| 04:26.11 | klaus | on a systemd system i can use that systemd file logind.conf and define: HandlePowerKey=ignore |
| 04:26.47 | klaus | i'm searching equivalent .. but nothing pops up as evident substitue |
| 04:26.57 | klaus | *substitute |
| 04:30.40 | gnarface | did you look in /etc/acpi or /usr/share/doc/acpi ? |
| 04:30.53 | klaus | not yet, i do now |
| 04:32.58 | klaus | someone forgot to delete a line in /etc/acpi/handler.sh , last line i see is: |
| 04:32.59 | klaus | # vim:set ts=4 sw=4 ft=sh et: |
| 04:35.31 | klaus | this /usr/share/doc/acpi path doesn't exists, the closer i have is /usr/share/doc/acpid/ and there's nothing in the beside changelog, readme, todo |
| 04:35.53 | klaus | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:36.09 | klaus | not sure yet i'm reading |
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| 04:37.21 | klaus | hum, no, it's just log input lines |
| 04:38.01 | klaus | oh hey :) |
| 04:38.21 | klaus | --> /etc/elogind/logind.conf |
| 04:38.27 | klaus | :) |
| 04:39.18 | gnarface | oh, the gui login manager could take over that maybe |
| 04:39.24 | gnarface | i had forgotten |
| 04:39.28 | klaus | i don't use one |
| 04:39.38 | klaus | i removed the display manager |
| 04:39.40 | gnarface | then that might not help you |
| 04:39.43 | klaus | i log to tty |
| 04:39.51 | klaus | hum |
| 04:39.56 | gnarface | but the readme in /usr/share/doc/acpid might actually be useful |
| 04:40.08 | gnarface | here, i have a /etc/acpi/powerbtn-acpi-support.sh though, not sure why you don't. |
| 04:40.22 | gnarface | this could be new or old cruft |
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| 04:44.42 | klaus | turns out trying to restart elogind was a bad idea |
| 04:45.20 | klaus | but otherwise it worked |
| 04:45.49 | klaus | pressing my power key doesn't immediately shudown the system without warning anymore |
| 04:47.11 | gnarface | well that's good |
| 04:47.39 | gnarface | if you don't have a graphical login, you don't need elogind |
| 04:47.44 | gnarface | you could just uninstall it |
| 04:47.53 | gnarface | though then you might get new and exciting behavior |
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| 04:49.33 | klaus | but that's the one thing that change the behavior of my powerkey, if i remove it i'll get back to that behavior of immediate shutdown if i press it by mistake .. |
| 04:50.38 | gnarface | well, i'm not convinced that this couldn't be done with acpi, too |
| 04:50.46 | klaus | i'll try out things a bit, if i can remove it and find a way to prevent that behavior then i'll remove it, but meanwhile i find an alternate way i'll just keep it |
| 04:50.56 | gnarface | you might need some other package too like acpi-support-base or something |
| 04:51.43 | klaus | i'll try it out, thanks for the help ! |
| 04:51.54 | gnarface | no problem |
| 04:52.19 | gnarface | what's important is that it works how you want it to |
| 04:54.57 | klaus | devuan is a blessing, i should have gone that way sooner |
| 04:55.44 | klaus | i like artix too, it's arch without systemd |
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| 10:35.29 | FlibberTGibbet | Windows Subsystem for Devuan still behaving very well on my work Windows laptop :D |
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| 13:30.15 | poontangmessiah_ | gnarface: it's been some time since i've used devuan, does startup ifup still hang when the ethernet cable is unplugged? |
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| 15:10.34 | Walex | poontangmessiah: there are various tools rthat detect cable presence and run 'ifup' or 'ifdown' depending. |
| 15:10.57 | poontangmessiah | Walex: that doesn't answer the question |
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| 15:57.53 | Burek | new devuan when? |
| 16:02.44 | jonadab | Burek: As soon as Perl6 reaches the point where we can drop Perl5 support. |
| 16:03.10 | Burek | kk, thanks |
| 16:03.18 | jonadab | HTH.HAND. |
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| 16:24.28 | golinux | jonadab: Where did you get that? If we had the (wo)man power to do the remaining work it could be out next week. But alas . . . |
| 16:24.56 | golinux | But we want to do an ascii point release before beowulf. |
| 16:25.37 | r3boot | jonadab: :D :D :D |
| 16:25.43 | golinux | Maybe your response was sarcasm. Dunno . . |
| 16:26.41 | r3boot | golinux: it's sarcasm; Perl6, eventhough ppl have been writing for it for eons, is still not released |
| 16:27.19 | r3boot | err, *has not replaced perl5 yet |
| 16:30.09 | Burek | wow i got bamboozled |
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| 16:44.14 | djph | Burek: eh? |
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| 17:31.27 | golinux | knows very little about perl except for Netanel Rubin�s Perl Jam 2 talk at CCC a few years ago. |
| 17:35.16 | golinux | https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7130-the_perl_jam_2 |
| 17:35.25 | koollman | I intend to try installing devuan on a rather modern laptop (t495). what's the current 'best' installer, refracta from a liveusb ? |
| 17:35.28 | golinux | It was hysterical! |
| 17:36.03 | golinux | Depends what you want to have installed |
| 17:36.38 | koollman | hm. what are my options ? :) |
| 17:37.40 | koollman | I suppose I want devuan ascii, with a few things from backport. and I want to have at least Xorg running |
| 17:38.14 | fsmithred | live installer gives you what is in the iso - full xfce desktop |
| 17:38.19 | fsmithred | and takes 10 minutes |
| 17:38.45 | fsmithred | installer isos give you more software choices and take a lot longer to install (usually 1-2 hours for me) |
| 17:39.10 | koollman | I'm fairly sure installer iso won't work on this laptop. Although I could try and open bugs :) |
| 17:39.15 | fsmithred | should say full desktop for the desktop-live |
| 17:39.45 | fsmithred | if you think the hardware is too new, live iso probably won't help. |
| 17:39.57 | fsmithred | why do you think it won't install? |
| 17:40.43 | koollman | detection process. as I remember it, devuan installer is rather basic. I remember it getting stuck in various situations when there are no cdrom and it cannot find the usb key |
| 17:41.08 | koollman | I mean, I can try it right now, should be fast :) |
| 17:41.15 | fsmithred | oh, ryzen. You might need a newer kernel |
| 17:41.22 | fsmithred | I have something for that. |
| 17:41.35 | fsmithred | kinda old, but should still work. |
| 17:42.34 | fsmithred | This is ascii with backports kernel and a minimal desktop: https://get.refracta.org/files/experimental/refracta-test-oblx-bpo-20180913_1952.iso |
| 17:42.40 | koollman | and ... yeah. doing basic text install, get stuck on 'detecting cdrom'. and doing default graphical install, no touchpad, but also get stuck on detecting cdrom. :) |
| 17:42.48 | koollman | (from netinst iso) |
| 17:42.56 | fsmithred | iso is on a usb? |
| 17:42.59 | koollman | yes |
| 17:43.05 | fsmithred | you can play tricks with finding the cdrom |
| 17:43.13 | koollman | should I try mounting it before the detect step ? |
| 17:43.19 | fsmithred | not sure if I can remember exactly, but I'll try |
| 17:43.46 | fsmithred | I think you have to let it fail to find the cdrom, then switch to another vt BEFORE you dismiss the error screen |
| 17:43.59 | fsmithred | then make a symlink |
| 17:44.13 | koollman | doesn't get to an error. it is just 'stuck'. no logs on alt-f4 terminal |
| 17:44.14 | fsmithred | then go back to vt1 and tell it to try again |
| 17:44.27 | fsmithred | oh |
| 17:45.13 | fsmithred | other option would be to boot the refracta iso I just posted above and do a debootstrap install of devuan |
| 17:45.21 | fsmithred | then you really get to choose what you want |
| 17:45.47 | koollman | well, that would be equivalent to doing a debootstrap install from any other env, right ? (assuming recent enough kernel) |
| 17:46.25 | fsmithred | yeah, with devuan's debootstrap. Not sure if that makes a big difference. |
| 17:47.29 | fsmithred | yeah, ascii has a devuanized debootstrap. The debian version doesn't include us in any of the scripts. |
| 17:48.07 | fsmithred | There might still be a working beowulf mini.iso. |
| 17:48.19 | fsmithred | not sure if the kernel has updated since the last build. |
| 17:48.50 | koollman | I can probably manage to do that. I remember doing install from debootstrap a while ago. I'm still going to try the live iso first |
| 17:50.23 | fsmithred | ok, here's the last mini.iso that was made, in case the live doesn't work: http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/ |
| 17:52.47 | koollman | live is promising ... reached xfce desktop :) |
| 17:55.05 | koollman | (still probably a few bugs given the delays in boot/udevd and errors mentionning iommu : https://dpaste.de/Kbn6#L228 ) |
| 18:00.40 | fsmithred | if it booted, it should install no problem |
| 18:01.31 | fsmithred | brb |
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| 18:06.07 | koollman | I think there are some problems with udev,still. I can see 'udevadm settle' (launched by gparted on validation) that was stuck for maybe 4/5 minutes. but gparted seems to continue now. (udevadm was polling /run/udev/queue I think) |
| 18:09.17 | koollman | oh ... it's going to do it for each partition. that may take a while :) |
| 18:09.46 | koollman | (guess I will pre-partition next time :) ) |
| 18:10.52 | fsmithred | gpt or msdos partition table? |
| 18:11.02 | koollman | gpt |
| 18:11.09 | koollman | and, it's not the disk that is slow. nvme :) |
| 18:11.15 | fsmithred | make sure to create the bios_grub partition |
| 18:11.37 | fsmithred | at least 1mb with no filesystem on it, with bios_grub flag |
| 18:11.40 | fsmithred | oh |
| 18:11.44 | fsmithred | unless you're using efi |
| 18:12.06 | fsmithred | then you just need efi partition |
| 18:12.43 | fsmithred | do you know if you booted uefi or bios? |
| 18:13.31 | koollman | uefi. and I'm reusing existing efi partition |
| 18:13.37 | fsmithred | ok |
| 18:13.54 | fsmithred | I've noticed that gparted is very slow on a gpt disk with many partitions |
| 18:14.01 | fsmithred | slow to come up. |
| 18:14.13 | fsmithred | once it's up, it's fine |
| 18:14.23 | koollman | different problem there, I think |
| 18:15.28 | koollman | came up fast, but writing partitions is very slow. And if I look at what gparted is doing, it's waiting for 'udevadm settle', which takes a few minutes, then do one operation, then call it again |
| 18:16.07 | fsmithred | gdisk might work better |
| 18:16.09 | koollman | maybe I will kill it and start over doing partitions with another tool first |
| 18:16.40 | fsmithred | if you pre-format, make sure to select "Do not format" in the options menu. |
| 18:17.45 | fsmithred | and I'm talking about making the filesystems, not just the partitions. |
| 18:18.31 | koollman | ok. took 30s in cgdisk :) |
| 18:18.38 | koollman | (and that was mostly human time) |
| 18:18.50 | fsmithred | that's sounds better |
| 18:19.08 | koollman | still indicates a bug in udevadm or gparted in the live image |
| 18:19.57 | fsmithred | I think gparted |
| 18:20.13 | koollman | well, it was really a long-lived udevadm process that was slowing it down. |
| 18:20.26 | fsmithred | I've had some trouble with partitioning on uefi with it. Can't remember specifics, but I tend to use gdisk now. |
| 18:20.28 | koollman | although it is clearly a bug to call that from the main thread in a graphical application, too ... |
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| 18:32.54 | fsmithred | koollman, when you get to the window for grub install, you might want to go to a root terminal, chroot /target and then add backports to install the bpo kernel |
| 18:33.08 | fsmithred | then go back and let it install the bootloader |
| 18:33.22 | fsmithred | don't choose the chroot button |
| 18:34.17 | koollman | nah, I was impatient. now it's booting on the newly installed devuan. But, yeah, I will get new kernel first thing after boot is finished. seems to get some slowdowns like the liveusb (which I expected) |
| 18:34.24 | koollman | and ... login prompt \o/ |
| 18:34.44 | fsmithred | console login? |
| 18:35.01 | koollman | yeah. but that's ok. I can work from there :) |
| 18:35.12 | fsmithred | good :) |
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| 18:36.03 | koollman | hm. the generated fstab is wrong, though |
| 18:36.41 | koollman | I suppose since I preformatted everything, I was not asked which fs to pick ... so the fs column is missing |
| 18:37.50 | fsmithred | I will look at that now |
| 18:38.05 | fsmithred | pretty sure it pulls the fs type from blkid |
| 18:40.29 | koollman | and ... rmmod pcspkr. I forgot how loud it was in this laptop :) |
| 18:42.46 | fsmithred | it should have printed the fs type in fstab |
| 18:43.05 | koollman | maybe I did mess up something. but it's fine, easy to correct on my side |
| 18:43.24 | fsmithred | look over the log. Should be in your home dir. |
| 18:44.03 | fsmithred | if [[ $no_format = "yes" ]]; then |
| 18:44.03 | fsmithred | fs_type_os=$(blkid -s TYPE "$install_dev" | awk -F"\"" '{ print $2 }') |
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| 18:45.55 | koollman | currently booting with backports kernel. still seem to get a delay at boot. I will investigate that later. once it is booted I'll try blkid command |
| 18:46.51 | fsmithred | find that place in the log and make sure that it saw the type |
| 18:47.19 | koollman | but, hey ... now I get to a graphical login manager :) |
| 18:47.37 | koollman | and xfce is working. |
| 18:47.43 | fsmithred | cool |
| 18:48.28 | koollman | fs_type_os= |
| 18:48.38 | koollman | so ... yeah. not detected when it ran |
| 18:48.56 | fsmithred | weird |
| 18:49.40 | koollman | I will probably try some more installs. I suspect it was my fault. And if I run it now it does gives back 'ext4' |
| 18:49.48 | koollman | maybe at least add a check for empty string |
| 18:50.16 | fsmithred | and have it do what? |
| 18:50.33 | fsmithred | open fstab in a text editor? |
| 18:50.38 | koollman | :) |
| 18:50.50 | koollman | that's an option. or error with an option to re-run detection maybe |
| 18:51.31 | koollman | now I need to find out why I lose 2 minutes with no logs in the middle of my boot. although I do strongly suspect unsupported hardware and udevd :) |
| 18:52.23 | fsmithred | if you're going to do more installs, you might consider installing beowulf |
| 18:52.42 | koollman | maybe, yes |
| 18:53.01 | fsmithred | upgrading to it with full xfce desktop right now would be tricky, because some of the task-* packages aren't ready |
| 18:53.45 | fsmithred | do standard system install then add desktop parts individually (xfce4 metapackage should be ok) |
| 18:53.52 | fsmithred | but don't select it from tasksel |
| 18:55.17 | koollman | if I do standard install I generally don't even bother with X during install. it comes later. and if ion3 is working I'm all set :) |
| 18:55.33 | fsmithred | great |
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| 18:58.05 | koollman | https://dpaste.de/zyDH around lines 1007, 1008, 1009 ... looks like two pauses, of about 1 minute each. do you have any idea what would fail with a timeout of 1min ? (or maybe two minutes ... but with a udevd message in the middle) |
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| 18:59.03 | koollman | (and of course before that, I have at least one problem with a null dereference in kernel. which is ugly but maybe need a much newer kernel for this cpu/chipset :) ) |
| 19:02.22 | fsmithred | do you know what device is cited there? |
| 19:02.48 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
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| 19:03.48 | koollman | what pci id would that be. 05:00.0 ? |
| 19:04.22 | koollman | 10ec:522a, realtek card reader RTS522A |
| 19:04.36 | fsmithred | devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:01.7/0000:05:00.0/rtsx_pci_sdmmc |
| 19:04.49 | fsmithred | sdmmc... is that your nvme drive? |
| 19:05.34 | fsmithred | yes, look for that number in lspci output |
| 19:05.45 | fsmithred | oh |
| 19:05.48 | koollman | it was the line just after my question ;) |
| 19:05.55 | fsmithred | yeah, finally saw that |
| 19:06.08 | koollman | (first bit is pci id if you want exact model) |
| 19:06.09 | fsmithred | maybe you could turn it off in bios |
| 19:06.24 | fsmithred | and wait for a few kernel updates |
| 19:06.35 | koollman | well, I can try a more recent kernel, too |
| 19:08.20 | koollman | doesn't seem very new, though |
| 19:08.58 | fsmithred | the card reader or the kernel? |
| 19:09.03 | koollman | card reader |
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| 19:11.34 | koollman | (by the way thank you very much for all the help :) ) |
| 19:12.40 | koollman | and I even got my wireless card working. great :) |
| 19:13.15 | koollman | (although having an ethernet port is pretty great when trying this kind of things. was hard to find a decent model that still had one) |
| 19:13.17 | gnarface | poontangmessiah: the answer is it never did, if you set it up right. |
| 19:14.23 | fsmithred | koollman, lsmod |grep rtsx |
| 19:15.24 | koollman | rtsx_pci is loaded |
| 19:15.59 | fsmithred | I'm out of ideas |
| 19:16.41 | koollman | I'll probably try a few kernels to see if something bleeding-edge behaves the same way |
| 19:17.07 | fsmithred | you could probably run the 5.2 from ceres on beowulf |
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| 19:43.14 | koollman | (and blobwars run. my work laptop is finally ready ;) ) |
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| 20:23.36 | jonadab | golinux: Made it up out of whole cloth. |
| 20:24.23 | jonadab | As a rule of thumb, any answer followed by "HTH.HAND." is probably not actually the real answer. This has been true since usenet was invented, I think? Or for most of that time, anyway. |
| 20:37.44 | golinux | Have never run across that (that I can remember) on any Devuan channels. |
| 20:39.30 | drawkula | I see that for the 1st time now |
| 20:40.49 | golinux | And you've been around a veeeery long time. |
| 20:43.22 | drawkula | maybe jonadab and me read different groups... |
| 20:43.53 | drawkula | globalising own experiences is often ... hmmmm ... misleading |
| 20:44.55 | drawkula | or our memory is cheating... lossy data compression in our grey matter... |
| 20:47.37 | jonadab | golinux: Eh, I didn't get on the internet until 1993. |
| 20:47.48 | jonadab | There are folks who have been around way longer. |
| 20:48.52 | jonadab | But yeah, I thought "HTH.HAND" would be understood in technical circles. I guess I should switch to saying "kappa" like the gamer kids. |
| 20:49.14 | golinux | Don't know that one either. I play solitaire. |
| 20:49.19 | jonadab | Or just stop making jokes. |
| 20:49.35 | Akuli | i play solitaire too <3 |
| 20:49.44 | jonadab | I think "kappa" originated on Twitch? Which is a change of pace, because most of the really terrible memes come from 4chan. |
| 20:49.52 | Akuli | i wrote a curses-based solitaire that i can play with terminal |
| 20:50.03 | Akuli | it draws the cards with unicode line-drawing characters, and it even has colorz |
| 20:50.19 | golinux | Probably not a good idea to joke about official Devuan news |
| 20:50.22 | jonadab | I have seriously thought about writing a terminal-based turn-based shmup. |
| 20:50.54 | golinux | Can we please take this over to #debian fork? |
| 20:51.09 | golinux | no space |
| 20:51.35 | golinux | #debianfork |
| 20:51.54 | golinux | That's the chat channel |
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| 21:05.59 | r3boot | ghe, hth.hand, thats old :D |
| 21:23.49 | drawkula | its k3wl 2 b cryptic |
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| 21:45.13 | sixwheeledbeast | cr3wl may b |
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