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| 07:31.41 | eyalroz | Hello everyone... |
| 07:31.41 | eyalroz | I was wondering if anyone else has experienced mysterious crashes of Chrome extensions recently. |
| 07:32.10 | eyalroz | After my latest apt-get dist-upgrade, my uBlock Origin and EFF Privacy Badger crash on startup, and immediately after being reloaded |
| 07:32.20 | eyalroz | s/Chrome/Chromium |
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| 15:57.50 | klaus | hi all |
| 15:58.26 | nemo | g'day |
| 15:58.37 | nemo | ou.. bonjour. |
| 15:58.47 | klaus | bonjour :) |
| 16:00.13 | klaus | i was wondering if runit was easy to switch to in devuan and if that was a working choice at the moment, or more like a work in progress ? |
| 16:01.45 | klaus | and also, is it possible to use kernels from mainline kernel ( https://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline ) and if not, does devuan have something similar, to be able to install recent kernels ? |
| 16:03.09 | James1138 | Yes. I use the kernel all the time to update. |
| 16:03.56 | James1138 | Right now I am using v4.9.189 kernel from the website. |
| 16:05.14 | klaus | i was thinking more like 5.2.x or even 5.3.x.rc |
| 16:06.04 | klaus | James1138: but so, you mean it's possible for devuan to install those kernels from kernel-ppa/mainline ? |
| 16:06.11 | klaus | if yes then that's good |
| 16:08.11 | James1138 | Correct Klaus. After installing, run "sudo update-grub" from terminal before reboot. Then remove the older kernel (I use Synaptic to completely remove) and the run "sudo update-grub" again for good measure. |
| 16:08.35 | klaus | very good |
| 16:08.44 | James1138 | I meant to say "remove older kernel after reboot". |
| 16:09.47 | klaus | right now i'm testing artix (arch without the virus, i mean systemd) but i'm also tempted by giving devuan a try. what you tell me is encouraging |
| 16:10.03 | klaus | yes i understood |
| 16:15.34 | James1138 | Klaus... over many ...many years, I tried Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Linux Mint, straight Debian, WattOS, and even ZorinOS. However, I found Devuan XFCE the most stable of the bunch and with XFCE desktop - my Lenovo Thinkpad T500 feels really responsive. |
| 16:16.54 | klaus | i'm an i3 user, i like tiling wm, i remove the display manager, log into tty then usualy configure .xinitrc and startx from there |
| 16:17.25 | klaus | i tried many distro too over the years, what you say about devuan sounds nice |
| 16:18.01 | klaus | i'll have to get the iso and try to see if i keep sysvinit or if i try to use runit |
| 16:21.22 | James1138 | Klaus, here is the link to the ISO - https://www.debian.org/CD/ |
| 16:21.47 | klaus | James1138: well thanks i think i gonna do that right now |
| 16:21.58 | James1138 | (y) |
| 16:22.48 | klaus | you meant "devuan" though, no ? |
| 16:23.00 | klaus | you wrote debian |
| 16:24.10 | James1138 | MY BAD!! https://devuan.org/get-devuan Klaus... just wondering - are you installing Devuan on laptop or desktop |
| 16:24.17 | klaus | hehe |
| 16:24.25 | klaus | laptop |
| 16:24.44 | klaus | a bad one at that .. it's a macbookpro (2015) |
| 16:24.52 | klaus | using linux as single os |
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| 16:27.12 | klaus | it is possible to use a minimal-live and install, build up a working system from that ? |
| 16:27.43 | klaus | i mean rather than getting a full desktop-live, install, and removing everything from there |
| 16:28.42 | buZz | klaus: yes |
| 16:28.47 | klaus | if minimal-live is installable, and have apt working .. |
| 16:28.48 | buZz | imho its the recommended method :) |
| 16:28.53 | klaus | thanks buZz |
| 16:28.57 | buZz | i wouldnt use a live distro to install though |
| 16:29.00 | buZz | but netinst |
| 16:29.00 | klaus | very good then :) |
| 16:29.12 | James1138 | Laptop - I suggest XFCE desktop - it is the least demanding on the laptop hardware. My T500 was made back in 2008 - but I can stack it next to more moden stuff. |
| 16:29.23 | buZz | James1138: fluxbox uses less cpu cycles |
| 16:29.23 | buZz | :) |
| 16:29.34 | buZz | openbox even less |
| 16:29.37 | klaus | i just hope my wifi chip will be working (brcmfmac) |
| 16:30.26 | klaus | i3 .. |
| 16:30.43 | James1138 | XFCE gives me more options than Fluxbox or Openbox - weather indicators, alarm clocks, etc. |
| 16:31.01 | buZz | James1138: those -all- take cpu cycles you could use to run your webbrowser faster |
| 16:31.04 | buZz | :) |
| 16:31.48 | James1138 | Klaus - get the full desktop ISO. Easier to remove stuff you do not want if accidently installed rather than trying to add it later on. |
| 16:31.58 | buZz | James1138: he doesnt want that ;) |
| 16:32.41 | klaus | i use i3blocks and dunst for having those indicators |
| 16:33.39 | klaus | i'll try the netinstall then if that doesn't go well with my wifi chip i'll try using desktop-live and remove the bloat later |
| 16:33.45 | James1138 | ok. |
| 16:35.20 | klaus | so there is two choice i see ? ascii or jessie ? |
| 16:35.29 | James1138 | ASCII |
| 16:35.40 | klaus | k |
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| 17:05.51 | klaus | i need to manually download this driver: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=broadcom&release=ascii |
| 17:06.57 | klaus | i can't see a download option on that page, the minimal installer doesn't offer the broadcom-sta (wl) driver but it says i can plug external disk to get the driver from it |
| 17:07.12 | klaus | where can i download that ? |
| 17:07.36 | golinux | It should be in the non-free section of the repos |
| 17:07.50 | klaus | the wifi chip on that other machine is a bcm4360 |
| 17:08.10 | klaus | golinux: i don't have access to the repo yet, i'm at the installer |
| 17:08.39 | klaus | from the installer i can get a shell, but since it's the wifi driver i'm missing i don't have internet |
| 17:09.20 | klaus | i can use another machine to try to get the driver on an external drive maybe that's what i'm trying to do |
| 17:09.24 | fsmithred | klaus, the firmware package for that broadcom only contains an installer |
| 17:09.32 | fsmithred | you need internet to install the actual driver |
| 17:10.01 | fsmithred | if you search the dng mailing list archives, you can find an account of how to do this without an ethernet cable |
| 17:10.16 | klaus | fsmithred: i have another machine, maybe i can do something from it ? |
| 17:10.20 | fsmithred | yes |
| 17:10.39 | fsmithred | sorry I don't have more concrete information |
| 17:11.17 | klaus | it's already good to know something can be done, thanks for telling |
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| 17:12.44 | fsmithred | I might even have the file you need. Checking old email. |
| 17:13.02 | fsmithred | if not, there are several places to download it |
| 17:13.39 | klaus | fsmithred: i'd be interested if you find the file or a link to get it |
| 17:14.00 | klaus | (x86_64 here) |
| 17:15.15 | James1138 | Here is a possible source for Broadcom drivers... https://pkgs.org/download/broadcom |
| 17:15.30 | fsmithred | and here's another: http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/b43#devicefirmware |
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| 17:19.12 | klaus | would getting the debian deb package for it works with devuan ? |
| 17:19.30 | klaus | like this one for debian 10 https://debian.pkgs.org/10/debian-nonfree-amd64/broadcom-sta-common_6.30.223.271-10_all.deb.html |
| 17:22.26 | fsmithred | it's the same package. We merge the debian repo with our own, so most of the packages are identical. |
| 17:22.38 | fsmithred | back in 15 min. |
| 17:23.40 | klaus | so i can try to give that package to the minimal installer via external drive ? |
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| 17:34.07 | klaus | that other laptop i'm trying to put devuan on requires more drivers than the minimal installer have.. the touchpad also doesn't seem to work, too bad for the minimal install. i'll try with a full desktop-live. |
| 17:34.49 | James1138 | (y) |
| 17:34.57 | klaus | i know that laptop is a bit exotic.. |
| 17:36.16 | fsmithred | klaus, I'm pretty sure the driver you need is not in the live isos |
| 17:36.46 | James1138 | Klaus... still looking for Broadcom driver?? |
| 17:38.00 | klaus | yes |
| 17:38.31 | fsmithred | and when you say "minimal install" do you mean the netinstal iso or the minimal-live iso? |
| 17:38.34 | klaus | but i'll need a touchpad driver too..that old laptop is a pain..(macbookair 2013) |
| 17:38.43 | James1138 | Okay - here is a link with a big list that should work on Debian/Ubuntu... https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx |
| 17:39.25 | klaus | apparently the minimal installer doesn't take debs from the external drive |
| 17:39.31 | James1138 | https://wiki.debian.org/SynapticsTouchpad |
| 17:39.56 | klaus | am i suppose to unpack the deb or something ? |
| 17:40.00 | klaus | *supposed |
| 17:40.30 | James1138 | Yes. There is also for touchpads... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/input/devices/elantech.html |
| 17:40.32 | klaus | fsmithred: i mean the netinstall iso |
| 17:40.38 | fsmithred | ok, thanks |
| 17:40.39 | klaus | sorry for the confusion |
| 17:40.44 | fsmithred | np |
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| 17:40.50 | fsmithred | happens all the time |
| 17:41.46 | James1138 | https://pkgs.org/download/touchpad |
| 17:44.31 | golinux | Why do you keep posting links to repos external to devuan? |
| 17:44.44 | fsmithred | so he can download the firmware and install it |
| 17:45.21 | fsmithred | some broadcom drivers require that you have an internet connection to get the driver that gives you an internet connection |
| 17:46.09 | James1138 | I had to do the same with my Thinkpad T500. Keep in mind Golinux - our laptops are OLD. Firmware updates are required. |
| 17:46.24 | fsmithred | We would have included it in the live isos except the license agreement requires us to pay for any legal expenses that come up. |
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| 17:47.16 | klaus | fsmithred: maybe put a link to it and explain how to have it ready on an external drive, for the netinstall to get and use it ? |
| 17:47.16 | James1138 | I personally had to also install Intel Microcode as well as firmware to be safe. |
| 17:47.19 | fsmithred | the easiest solution is to use an ethernet cable and install from repo |
| 17:47.37 | fsmithred | but not everyone can do that |
| 17:47.55 | klaus | i mean, trying to avoid to pay and letting the users how they can manage the problem, best of both world ? |
| 17:48.07 | fsmithred | yeah, that might work |
| 17:48.19 | James1138 | You hit is on the nose Klaus. |
| 17:48.30 | fsmithred | I have an email that contains instructions, but it's long and also contains a lot of unnecessary commentary |
| 17:48.35 | klaus | yes, i have two laptop none of them has ethernet |
| 17:49.05 | James1138 | ouch! My laptop is over 10 years old and has ethernet! |
| 17:49.57 | golinux | I have never used wifi. Always wired |
| 17:50.04 | klaus | i can say, the netinstall, i also tried the graphical mode, just to see, and it's there i noticed the touchpad wasn't working. on the desktop-live iso, it is working well though |
| 17:51.27 | fsmithred | if you can find an earlier desktop-live iso (maybe at archive.org) you might get one that has the driver installed. |
| 17:51.38 | fsmithred | not sure if that was beta or rc1 |
| 17:51.59 | James1138 | But... usually xserver-xorg-input-synaptics package should handle the issue of touchpad... most of the time. |
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| 18:07.09 | buZz | ohh, i wonder if i'm using that? |
| 18:07.21 | buZz | i am not :O |
| 18:08.01 | buZz | https://packages.debian.org/jessie/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics |
| 18:08.04 | buZz | nice featurelist |
| 18:09.30 | James1138 | (y) |
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| 18:23.04 | fsmithred | klaus, this one might work: https://web.archive.org/web/20180214220344/https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii_beta/desktop-live/ |
| 18:24.27 | klaus | fsmithred: thanks, i look |
| 18:26.58 | klaus | iso isn't downloadable from wayback machine |
| 18:27.07 | klaus | they just have the html page |
| 18:29.14 | klaus | i went and installed the system anyway, now i try to gather the needed packages to manually install with dpkg |
| 18:30.02 | klaus | if there was an iso with working driver i'd use that and reinstall, but in the meantime i was trying like that |
| 18:30.51 | klaus | i see the package broadcom-sta-common_6.30.223.271-10_all.deb just contain docs and a .conf file for the module |
| 18:31.06 | klaus | but no actual module |
| 18:31.25 | klaus | maybe i need another package, a firmware-something |
| 18:31.41 | klaus | i don't know yet.. i'm trying stuffs |
| 18:31.43 | klaus | ;) |
| 18:32.30 | James1138 | http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/non-free/b/broadcom-sta/ |
| 18:34.48 | klaus | James1138: yes i have those 3 packages (all, source, and dkms) but they requiere me to find and gather a few others they depend on |
| 18:35.09 | klaus | like the dkms one wants well, dkms, and the source one wants make and gcc |
| 18:35.13 | klaus | and such |
| 18:35.36 | klaus | i'm back in the 90s gettings packages needed manually one by one ;) |
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| 18:38.22 | James1138 | dep: dkms (>= 2.1.0.0)Dynamic Kernel Module Support Frameworkrec: wireless-toolsTools for manipulating Linux Wireless Extensionsrec: broadcom-sta-sourceSource for the Broadcom STA Wireless driverrec: module-assistanttool to make module package creation easierdep: debhelper (>= 8)helper programs for debian/rulesdep: makeutility for directing compila |
| 18:38.23 | James1138 | tionalso a virtual package provided by make-guiledep: xz-utilsXZ-format compression utilitiesrec: module-assistanttool to make module package creation easier |
| 18:39.49 | klaus | apt-cache depends <package> gives a shorter list, but yes xz-utils, module-assistant, make, make-guile, debhelper, |
| 18:40.02 | klaus | i think that's it |
| 18:40.48 | klaus | i hope all those packages don't have too much depencies themselves |
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| 18:41.31 | klaus | it would have been simplier to do this from a running debian machine |
| 18:41.46 | klaus | i could have got all the needed packages in one shot |
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| 18:42.05 | klaus | put them on external drive and done |
| 18:42.34 | fsmithred | it's not the packages you need, it's the actual driver you need. |
| 18:42.46 | fsmithred | the packages just download the driver |
| 18:44.48 | klaus | fsmithred: then i don't know what to do in that case ? |
| 18:45.37 | klaus | i have the broadcom-sta-dkms, and broadcom-sta-source, i thought that if i get dkms installed it would build a working module, no? |
| 18:47.11 | klaus | it's just that for dkms to build a working module i also need make and a few other packages, am i doing something wrong ? |
| 18:47.27 | klaus | if you have a better idea, i'm all ears |
| 18:48.31 | klaus | or the expression is : 'i'm all hear' .. 'i'm all ear' i dunno well you see what i mean ;) |
| 18:49.57 | golinux | "i'm all ears" is the winner |
| 18:50.38 | golinux | I wish I could help but I've never had to deal with wifi. |
| 18:51.41 | fsmithred | klaus, I'm going to paste that long email for you. It was meant to be a post to dng mailing list, but it never got there, and the rest of the discussion has been deleted. |
| 18:52.56 | klaus | fsmithred: thanks if you want i can give you my mail in /query |
| 18:53.17 | klaus | or you can paste it on some pastebin, you'll tell me what you prefer |
| 18:53.50 | fsmithred | https://paste.debian.net/1096864/ |
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| 19:01.48 | golinux | OMG . . . the line didn't wrap! |
| 19:14.52 | fsmithred | wrapped: https://paste.debian.net/1096866/ |
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| 19:25.18 | klaus | i wonder if it wouldn't be simplier to get ubuntu iso, mount the squashfs file and get the firmware from there |
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| 19:35.31 | klaus | is there a way to install build-essential from the desktop-live iso ? |
| 19:35.38 | klaus | i haven't seen it ? |
| 19:38.35 | kompowiec2 | when i try mounted whatever i have error "not autorized to perform operation" and i must mount manually from terminal. I tried to remove applications which in theory that could block it as like gparted, mate but to no avail. This is not a coincidence with the modified package policykit? |
| 19:39.01 | kompowiec2 | if yes, what should I change in it? |
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| 19:47.51 | klaus | hmm the desktop live should contain make and dkms this is too bad it isn't available |
| 19:50.19 | klaus | i can't build the module without it, if i try to build from another system is won't work |
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| 20:01.27 | klaus | fsmithred: what should i do with those files created with: sudo b43-fwcutter -w ./firmware1 ./broadcom-wl-5.100.138/linux/wl_apsta.o |
| 20:01.30 | klaus | ? |
| 20:01.56 | kompowiec2 | lib/firmware ? |
| 20:02.03 | klaus | i have an installed system, should i place them in /lib/firmware or something? |
| 20:02.28 | kompowiec2 | i have broadcom and remember that lib firmware was |
| 20:02.29 | klaus | yes but where exactly ..? |
| 20:03.06 | kompowiec2 | b43-fwcutter -w /lib/firmware /linux/wl_apsta.o |
| 20:03.14 | kompowiec2 | then |
| 20:03.17 | kompowiec2 | modprobe b43 |
| 20:03.19 | kompowiec2 | and reboot |
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| 20:04.12 | klaus | that command (b43-cutter) create 150 files |
| 20:04.33 | klaus | should i just dumb them like that in /lib/firmware ? that seem wrong ? |
| 20:04.40 | klaus | *dump |
| 20:05.48 | kompowiec2 | I used to do this and it worked. In slackaware in slackbulid blurs marks with the help of strp command |
| 20:06.17 | kompowiec2 | strip command* |
| 20:06.21 | klaus | well, ok i'll try |
| 20:08.37 | kompowiec2 | klaus: from what I remember officla devuan installer iso have non-free firmware included by default - and I didn't have to deal with installing the drivers for broadcom |
| 20:08.41 | kompowiec2 | officla* |
| 20:08.44 | kompowiec2 | official* |
| 20:11.04 | klaus | kompowiec2: apparently it doesn't have this one or i missed something |
| 20:11.28 | kompowiec2 | possible |
| 20:11.53 | kompowiec2 | but i know that b43 package should be |
| 20:12.58 | klaus | it's broadcom-sta (wl) for me |
| 20:13.55 | kompowiec2 | oh well |
| 20:14.03 | klaus | and putting all the firmware in /lib/firmware didn't help, the adapter is not recognized, i can't modprobe wl, and nothing works ;) |
| 20:14.48 | kompowiec2 | https://wiki.debian.org/wl#Supported_Devices |
| 20:15.16 | klaus | it works on ubuntu and debian |
| 20:15.35 | kompowiec2 | does exists some packages for broadcom |
| 20:15.58 | klaus | yes, it exists the "broadcom-sta" packages |
| 20:16.11 | kompowiec2 | dmks ;) |
| 20:16.15 | klaus | i can't |
| 20:16.27 | klaus | i have no internet and make isn't installed |
| 20:16.37 | kompowiec2 | broadcom-sta-dkms internet required? Thats sucks |
| 20:16.47 | klaus | it require make |
| 20:16.52 | klaus | and gcc |
| 20:16.58 | klaus | and few other things |
| 20:17.06 | klaus | that are not installed by default |
| 20:17.51 | kompowiec2 | It works for me and have gcc and make |
| 20:18.39 | kompowiec2 | tbh without compiler you won't do much unless |
| 20:19.06 | klaus | i have no compiler because it is not installed from the iso |
| 20:19.28 | klaus | if i had make, then dkms would work |
| 20:19.40 | klaus | no make -> no dkms |
| 20:19.47 | klaus | no internet -> no make |
| 20:20.12 | kompowiec2 | i remember when first install slackare and noto install compiler, ugh |
| 20:20.22 | kompowiec2 | slackware and not* |
| 20:20.47 | klaus | i tried android usb tethering, it doesn't work either |
| 20:20.57 | kompowiec2 | I couldn't get to the internet without it. |
| 20:21.45 | kompowiec2 | i think that the worst option remains: connect via ethernet |
| 20:27.27 | klaus | ah finaly android usb tethering works |
| 20:27.50 | kompowiec2 | nice to hear that |
| 20:27.52 | klaus | now i need to enable non-free repo |
| 20:28.06 | klaus | if there is such q thing |
| 20:28.08 | klaus | a |
| 20:28.15 | kompowiec2 | etc sources.list and add non-free |
| 20:30.21 | klaus | it is : deb http://----devuan---- ascii-non-free main ? |
| 20:30.45 | klaus | or "ascii non-free" ? |
| 20:32.07 | klaus | or "ascii main non-free" maybe ? |
| 20:32.42 | klaus | would that work: sudo apt-add-repository non-free ? |
| 20:34.04 | buZz | deb http://nl.deb.devuan.org/merged ascii main non-free contrib |
| 20:34.08 | buZz | thats what i got |
| 20:34.11 | buZz | and works |
| 20:34.52 | klaus | thanks buZz |
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| 20:36.54 | James1138 | Klaus.. also (using Synaptic), go to "settings" and "repositories" - then add url "http://deb.debian.org/debian/" distribution "stretch-backports" sections "main contrib non-free" |
| 20:38.35 | klaus | i prefer without synaptic |
| 20:38.41 | klaus | but thanks for telling |
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| 20:39.20 | klaus | it was a bit of a chicken and egg problem |
| 20:39.41 | klaus | no make -> no internet, no internet -> no make ;) |
| 20:40.14 | James1138 | X) |
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| 20:59.24 | klaus | fsmithred: maybe idealy something could be made, like a script on any working computer to grad the firmware from debian or ubuntu and make an iso out of them, ready to be burned to an external disk with dd, |
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| 20:59.52 | klaus | that iso should probably have a fat32 system from what i read |
| 21:00.50 | klaus | so : "dd if=./that_file.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=1M" and you have something ready to feed to the netinstall |
| 21:02.17 | klaus | *grad -> GRAB i meant |
| 21:03.49 | klaus | so that way, you get these files from debian or ubuntu, you are not requiered to pay fee, and the devuan users get a convenient way of having support for their non-free devices |
| 21:04.08 | klaus | it's just an idea .. |
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| 21:06.03 | TwistedFate | can i disable that interface up check thingy during the boot? |
| 21:06.17 | TwistedFate | the way it slows down my system boot if the network is down is absolutely disgusting |
| 21:06.41 | TwistedFate | and who even implemented that |
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| 21:12.26 | fsmithred | TwistedFate, https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1688 |
| 21:15.31 | TwistedFate | why is this an issue, even years after devuan's release? |
| 21:15.50 | TwistedFate | it's a simple change in the file (hopefully), but can this be modified please? |
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| 21:16.41 | TwistedFate | system boot should not depend on the network status |
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| 21:16.55 | gnarface | people would disagree with that |
| 21:16.59 | gnarface | just change the file you baby |
| 21:17.46 | gnarface | anyway the problem is neither setting works for everything |
| 21:17.48 | TwistedFate | i fail to see the logic behind waiting on the network to boot the system |
| 21:18.04 | gnarface | that's fine, because you're not using it for work |
| 21:18.40 | gnarface | but like i said, the issue is neither setting works for everything. it's down to a difference in hardware/driver features. |
| 21:19.00 | gnarface | it probably should be auto-detected in a fair world, but as i understand it, the issue is that the auto-detection is problematic |
| 21:19.15 | TwistedFate | in other distributions i used, the network starts automatically and doesn't affect the boot times |
| 21:19.59 | gnarface | then they were configured the other way. why is that a mystery? |
| 21:20.37 | gnarface | also, on the other distros, you weren't using DHCP. you switched to static IP addresses. remember? |
| 21:20.51 | gnarface | DHCP could be causing a second and completely unrelated delay here |
| 21:21.39 | gnarface | there's also a possibility you are missing 127.0.0.1 in your /etc/hosts |
| 21:21.57 | gnarface | and i walked you through ALL of this before |
| 21:22.08 | gnarface | didn't you keep a backup of /etc from then? |
| 21:22.19 | gnarface | it would have been helpful for your reference |
| 21:23.24 | gnarface | you don't even have to have any network configuration in /etc/network/interfaces other than this: |
| 21:23.27 | gnarface | auto lo |
| 21:23.27 | gnarface | iface lo inet loopback |
| 21:23.49 | gnarface | then you could just run a script to configure network after your window manager starts |
| 21:24.22 | gnarface | it's not how i would do it, and it's not how you'd want a server configured, but there's nothing stopping you |
| 21:24.30 | TwistedFate | of course, but i was talking about when i used other distros with dhcp too |
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| 21:25.45 | TwistedFate | for your "average joe" users, things like this would make a bad impression and turn them away from devuan |
| 21:26.03 | gnarface | but you aren't "average joe" anymore. don't be lazy. |
| 21:26.04 | TwistedFate | admins and such, they already know how they want their network and can easily modify a file |
| 21:26.07 | TwistedFate | or files |
| 21:26.23 | TwistedFate | i'm not, i'm just annoyed that this is still a default after all these years |
| 21:26.29 | golinux | That's exactly why there are other distros |
| 21:26.57 | TwistedFate | in times like these, you need the userbase |
| 21:27.01 | gnarface | those other distros would have behaved the same exact way, configured the same way. don't let him blame this on anything other than his lack of attention to detail. |
| 21:27.03 | TwistedFate | especially now with this systemd disease |
| 21:27.26 | gnarface | TwistedFate: this is clearly a mistake you made yourself |
| 21:27.48 | gnarface | TwistedFate: i guarantee if you set those "other distros" up in the same fashion then unplug the ethernet cable at boot, they'll do the same thing. |
| 21:27.57 | TwistedFate | you surely jest? this is the system default |
| 21:28.04 | gnarface | it's not though |
| 21:28.12 | gnarface | this stuff is all chosen by your choices at installation |
| 21:28.33 | TwistedFate | yes, but default system settings for such a choice |
| 21:29.33 | gnarface | it does exactly what you told it to do, and every other distro behaves the same. the differences are in the steps you took. |
| 21:29.57 | gnarface | you need to have better analytical skills than this knee-jerk trolling |
| 21:30.20 | TwistedFate | we agree to disagree, i'll leave it at that. |
| 21:32.13 | gnarface | well you haven't taken the steps to prove even to yourself that it's not a self-inflicted issue, and you've professed a complete unawareness of that possibility, so i cite that your logic is fundamentally flawed. |
| 21:33.03 | gnarface | and this is the second time we've had this argument. |
| 21:33.10 | gnarface | i'm getting sick of having arguments with you twice. |
| 21:33.35 | golinux | Deep breath . . . |
| 21:33.43 | gnarface | takes a walk |
| 21:34.00 | golinux | Good idea :) |
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| 21:34.31 | TwistedFate | shame that a walk won't fix a bad default setting. |
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| 21:34.51 | golinux | Hi pekman! |
| 21:35.12 | pekman | hi golinux |
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| 22:02.59 | klaus | hmm trying to install kernel 5.3 gives an error, it says: linux-image-unsigned-5.3xxx-generic depends on linux-base >= 4.5 however version of linux-base on system is 4.5 |
| 22:03.52 | klaus | i'm trying to install the 5.3rc5 from mainline kernel |
| 22:04.10 | fsmithred | what versions of linux-base are available? |
| 22:04.37 | fsmithred | normally, you just tell apt to install linux-base from the same repo as the kernel you're installing, and it's happy |
| 22:04.48 | klaus | dpkg -l |grep linux-base says just that: "4.5" |
| 22:04.58 | fsmithred | you in beowulf or ascii? |
| 22:05.02 | klaus | ascii |
| 22:05.54 | klaus | i haven't added that ppa, i did like i usualy do on ubuntu, i download the 4 deb i need and i do dpkg -i *.deb |
| 22:06.21 | fsmithred | see if the same repo has linux-base |
| 22:06.30 | klaus | (linux-image, linux-header-all, linux-header-generic , linux-modules) |
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| 22:08.09 | fsmithred | did you check debian experimental to see what kernel is there? |
| 22:08.51 | klaus | https://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/mainline/v5.3-rc5/ |
| 22:08.56 | klaus | i get them from there |
| 22:09.10 | klaus | fsmithred: no, how do i do that ? |
| 22:10.00 | fsmithred | you can search at packages.debian.org |
| 22:10.07 | fsmithred | but I tried and got nothing |
| 22:10.15 | fsmithred | however, 5.2 is in sid/ceres |
| 22:11.00 | fsmithred | linux-image-5.2.0-2-amd64 in ceres |
| 22:11.26 | klaus | also about the method you pasted earlier for the broadcom-sta drivers, apparently it won't work with more recent kernel, |
| 22:11.33 | klaus | i did find this though: https://github.com/antoineco/broadcom-wl |
| 22:11.44 | klaus | it is patched for more recent kernels |
| 22:11.56 | fsmithred | I think there were a couple of methods mentioned in that email |
| 22:12.16 | klaus | they all more or less relied on b43-cutter thing |
| 22:12.23 | klaus | all |
| 22:12.32 | klaus | err |
| 22:12.48 | klaus | there's an 'all' too much now ;) |
| 22:12.53 | fsmithred | I thought it was possible to get the driver and copy it into /lib/firmware/b43/ |
| 22:13.09 | fsmithred | once you figured out which one was right for your hardware |
| 22:13.14 | klaus | i did try that without success unfortunately, but |
| 22:13.28 | klaus | thanks for the help, the email pas te and all |
| 22:13.35 | fsmithred | anyway, to answer your other comment about making an iso... |
| 22:13.36 | klaus | *paste |
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| 22:14.42 | fsmithred | you could boot the desktop live on a computer that does have network, install the driver you need, create a live-iso with refractasnapshot, and use that to install on your system |
| 22:14.56 | fsmithred | you'd need a second usb or some other storage space to make the iso |
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| 22:17.49 | klaus | the margin for error is large, and the necessary steps too, but why not.. all i'm saying is maybe having a page on devuan detailing the action needed to get support for non-free hardware would be nice |
| 22:18.22 | klaus | either this solution you suggest or another, but something explained so users could follow that procedure |
| 22:19.40 | klaus | idealy something that package all the non-free in one big batch seemed to me a fool proof way of doing that |
| 22:20.04 | klaus | instead of trying to explain all steps for each different non-free stuffs |
| 22:20.37 | klaus | packaging it all, have user plug that into the installer and off they go .. |
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| 22:24.02 | fsmithred | we already do that with the ones we can do |
| 22:24.15 | fsmithred | but we can't distribute that one |
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| 22:25.18 | fsmithred | as I said before, the broadcom firmware packages just download the driver. It's not included in the package like it is for other firmwares. |
| 22:25.25 | fsmithred | for licensing reasons |
| 22:27.33 | klaus | you must have missed the point where i was saying: release just a script |
| 22:27.45 | klaus | so you don't have to pay for nothing |
| 22:27.56 | fsmithred | there's nothing to pay |
| 22:27.58 | klaus | i never said package the non free stuffs |
| 22:28.12 | klaus | you were the one speaking of fees earlier |
| 22:28.15 | fsmithred | non-free refers to the freedom to see the source code |
| 22:28.26 | plasma41 | I've never understood the logic of companies restricting redistribution of software they release gratis. |
| 22:28.51 | fsmithred | yeah, the license agreement says whoever distributes the driver gets to pay for broadcom's lawyers if broadcom gets sued |
| 22:29.03 | klaus | whatever the reason, i was just arguing, there's way to support non-free without packaging it |
| 22:29.40 | klaus | namely: from a script that grab the stuff from others and make a iso of it. it's all from the user side. |
| 22:30.21 | klaus | and when i say "make an iso" i'm not speaking of actualy build a full system iso |
| 22:30.55 | klaus | just a iso that contain the nonfree stuff, that can be given to eat to the installer from external drive |
| 22:31.19 | fsmithred | the installer already has the ability to take a driver from a usb stick |
| 22:31.44 | klaus | yes and like you where saying in your email paste, it's really clunky and cumbersome |
| 22:31.47 | fsmithred | but I guess it's not so easy to use. I've never tried it. |
| 22:32.15 | klaus | it need a fat32 filesystem and specific directory structure apparently |
| 22:33.09 | rrq | "it"? |
| 22:33.15 | klaus | the installer |
| 22:33.44 | fsmithred | we're talking about supplying broadcom driver on a usb stick for the installer to use |
| 22:34.16 | fsmithred | specifically, the broadcom driver that requires you to have an internet connection to get the driver that makes your internet work |
| 22:34.29 | klaus | it accept loading stuffs from and external drive, but the drive need to be fat32, and files placed in a directory and all other whims and shortcomings from the installer |
| 22:35.01 | klaus | by the way i loved how it looked, it's dialog based right? |
| 22:35.23 | fsmithred | debian-installer? |
| 22:35.27 | klaus | yes |
| 22:35.40 | klaus | i thought it was home made |
| 22:35.41 | fsmithred | I think so. I know it uses ncurses |
| 22:35.42 | rrq | so give it a loop-back fat32 image to play with, then (?) |
| 22:35.43 | fsmithred | lol |
| 22:35.52 | klaus | :) |
| 22:35.52 | fsmithred | no, refractainstaller is the home made one |
| 22:36.31 | fsmithred | well, you still need to transport the file on some physical medium |
| 22:36.46 | klaus | my other laptop won't be so tricky its hardware is better supported and free |
| 22:37.13 | klaus | it's just i wanted to try devuan a bit before installing it on my main laptop |
| 22:37.28 | klaus | so far it's nice |
| 22:37.30 | fsmithred | oh, there might be a way to do it using both laptops |
| 22:37.51 | klaus | like how? |
| 22:38.40 | fsmithred | oh, no. You'd need ethernet ports to connect the two laptops with what I'm thinking |
| 22:39.22 | fsmithred | if you have a sata-usb connector, you could pull the hard drive and plug it into the working computer |
| 22:39.24 | klaus | maybe the android tethering would work from netinstall ? |
| 22:39.35 | fsmithred | and then mount it and chroot in to install the driver |
| 22:39.44 | klaus | if yes then that the simpliest |
| 22:41.15 | klaus | what you said coyld work and would have been more simple, i hadn't tought about it |
| 22:41.21 | klaus | thought |
| 22:42.42 | klaus | anyway, apparently these ubuntu kernels from ppa mainline can't be used |
| 22:42.56 | klaus | i tried another one and it failed too |
| 22:43.02 | klaus | on the same error |
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| 22:43.45 | klaus | i need to look for a new source of fresh kernels |
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| 22:47.06 | rrq | ah? you need a new/special kernel as well as a networing driver? |
| 22:47.14 | rrq | k |
| 22:47.39 | fsmithred | 4.19 in ascii-backports |
| 22:48.23 | fsmithred | the 5.2 in ceres might work |
| 22:48.44 | fsmithred | you can download debs from packages.debian.org |
| 22:48.50 | klaus | rrq: i don't need a special kernel, i just would like to use a newer one, something froom the 5.x |
| 22:49.10 | klaus | fsmithred: i look |
| 22:49.21 | fsmithred | search in unstable release |
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| 22:49.29 | klaus | thanks for the link.. i realize i'm more used to ubuntu than debian |
| 22:49.51 | fsmithred | yeah, there are some differences |
| 22:52.21 | klaus | the file listing is a bit weird on packages.debian.org |
| 22:52.42 | klaus | i'd prefer something like a plain html index |
| 22:52.51 | klaus | direct file listing |
| 22:53.16 | fsmithred | go to the package page and at the bottom are links to the packages |
| 22:53.37 | klaus | i'm looking at: packages.debian.org/unstable/kernel/ |
| 22:53.45 | fsmithred | ? |
| 22:53.47 | klaus | in there i see there is 5.2 |
| 22:53.50 | fsmithred | linux-image |
| 22:53.52 | klaus | is that correct? |
| 22:53.52 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 22:54.04 | fsmithred | https://packages.debian.org/sid/linux-image-amd64 |
| 22:54.48 | klaus | thanks for the linux |
| 22:54.51 | klaus | i mean |
| 22:54.54 | klaus | link ;) |
| 22:55.05 | fsmithred | you could add a ceres line to sources.list, update, install linux-image-5-whatever and linux-base |
| 22:55.13 | fsmithred | and then get rid of that line |
| 22:55.15 | klaus | that would be good |
| 22:55.27 | klaus | what would the line look like ? |
| 22:55.34 | fsmithred | safer if you know how to pin it to a low priority, so you don't accidentally get stuff from ceres |
| 22:55.45 | rrq | (don't forget the pinning!!) |
| 22:55.46 | fsmithred | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged ceres main |
| 22:55.57 | klaus | rrq: well, i have never done that |
| 22:56.05 | klaus | pinning |
| 22:56.18 | fsmithred | hang on and I'll give you an example |
| 22:56.33 | klaus | (ty) |
| 22:57.01 | fsmithred | put the following in a file in /etc/apt/preferences.d/ |
| 22:57.04 | fsmithred | Package: * |
| 22:57.04 | fsmithred | Pin: release n=ceres |
| 22:57.04 | fsmithred | Pin-Priority: 50 |
| 22:57.13 | fsmithred | name it what you want |
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| 22:57.31 | fsmithred | then when you install the packages... |
| 22:57.41 | fsmithred | apt-get -t ceres install blah... |
| 22:59.12 | klaus | thank's great.. i test |
| 22:59.18 | klaus | *tjat's |
| 22:59.22 | klaus | that's |
| 22:59.25 | fsmithred | lol |
| 22:59.45 | fsmithred | I actually read it the way you meant it. |
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| 23:10.37 | klaus | worked well |
| 23:11.06 | klaus | i make a note of all that |
| 23:13.33 | fsmithred | cool |
| 23:14.06 | fsmithred | it's generally safe to selectively add packages from unstable/sid/ceres into testing |
| 23:14.26 | fsmithred | but right now, our testing is debian's stable, so ceres and beowulf will diverge over time |
| 23:16.18 | klaus | what the difference between ceres and beowulf ? these are both devuan unstable distro for testing ? |
| 23:16.50 | klaus | i mean, the putting together the future release ? |
| 23:17.07 | klaus | but then why 2 (ceres and beowulf) |
| 23:17.46 | drawkula | https://www.debian.org/releases/ |
| 23:20.08 | klaus | that link contain neither word ceres nor beofulf |
| 23:20.17 | klaus | and beowulf also :) |
| 23:20.33 | drawkula | deVUan uses the stable/testing/unstable scheme like deBIan does |
| 23:20.47 | klaus | ah i see |
| 23:20.51 | drawkula | so apart from different release names that text mostly applies |
| 23:21.18 | gnarface | except deVUan falls behind a bit after deBIan releases, which is the current state of things |
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| 23:21.24 | klaus | ok so i'll read that link you pasted to learn about the differences between testing and unstable |
| 23:21.33 | klaus | thanks |
| 23:22.11 | drawkula | had a looooong day and >6½hrs with an awk beginner... normally I'm a bit more verbose than now |
| 23:22.39 | klaus | ok |
| 23:23.31 | klaus | i mean i've read the differences |
| 23:24.31 | klaus | about you last sentence, no worries i understand and also thanks for the link |
| 23:25.53 | klaus | well.. it's a great day today.. |
| 23:26.04 | klaus | my home is finally systemd free |
| 23:26.05 | klaus | ;) |
| 23:26.36 | onefang | Have you checked your toaster, microwave oven, and washing machines? |
| 23:27.01 | klaus | i mean, he got the benefit of the doubt for years.. now it's enough with his sh... |
| 23:27.38 | klaus | one yea.. better double check we can never be too prudent |
| 23:27.51 | klaus | -one |
| 23:29.15 | klaus | that dude he can sneak crappy services just in about any corner |
| 23:34.56 | drawkula | apropos... I stumbled today over https://www.knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix860-en.html |
| 23:35.06 | drawkula | systemd-free again |
| 23:35.40 | debdog | \o/ |
| 23:35.52 | debdog | totally fogot about that tihngy |
| 23:36.02 | debdog | after grml, which went systemd |
| 23:36.55 | debdog | think even systemrescuecd went systemd |
| 23:37.01 | klaus | knoppix used to be popular a few years ago, maybe a decade |
| 23:37.41 | klaus | then it faded a bit, did he take a long pause and slipped out of the radar? |
| 23:39.03 | gnarface | i think all the major distros just copied what he was doing so it wasn't needed anymore |
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| 23:41.32 | klaus | i see.. |
| 23:42.02 | klaus | distrowatch lists: knoppix-autoconfig instead of systemd |
| 23:42.37 | klaus | that's about the only clue i could get that it wasn't using it anymore, there's not a single mention of it on his site as far as i could tell |
| 23:43.35 | fsmithred | yeah, he got rid of systemd. There's discussion about it on forum. |
| 23:45.52 | fsmithred | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3012 |
| 23:46.03 | gnarface | nice |
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| 23:46.26 | fsmithred | the video was interesting |
| 23:46.58 | fsmithred | basically, what it came down to is that he didn't need that complexity for a live DVD |
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| 23:47.30 | klaus | he's just being polite ;) |
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