| 00:00.18 | gnarface | performance can vary by stripe size and disk performance |
| 00:01.54 | gnarface | burst vs throughput performance |
| 00:01.56 | gnarface | etc |
| 00:02.06 | gnarface | at different write sizes |
| 00:02.45 | golinux | EHeM: Except where there are two potentially conflicting "stable" releases existing at the same time. |
| 00:03.17 | redrick | golinux: My favourite line from 'The West Wing': 'Ah, the rare valid point.' |
| 00:04.22 | golinux | It has been reiterated here several times but EHeM knows better. :rolleyes: |
| 00:06.44 | golinux | Time to take out compost. Just pulled up a bunch of rhizome propagating field grass. Oh joy! Worked up a good sweat and appetite. |
| 00:06.49 | systemdlete | Looks like I stepped in at a bad time with my relatively unimportant issue. I think the issue of clear definition of "stable" (based on my reading of the comments above) is far more urgent. |
| 00:07.10 | redrick | I have to keep remembering that most of my old-fogy knowledge is old-fogy Debian-specific knowledge and that there are very valid Devuan exceptions. |
| 00:07.19 | golinux | We need a change of subject actually. |
| 00:07.33 | systemdlete | sounds like people just need to air a grievance. |
| 00:07.45 | systemdlete | It's relevant, esp. in this channel. |
| 00:07.45 | redrick | Compost is endlessly discussable. ;-> |
| 00:07.57 | golinux | Not in this channel |
| 00:07.58 | systemdlete | in the debianfork maybe, not here. |
| 00:08.05 | systemdlete | what golinux said |
| 00:08.15 | redrick | was joking, I say joking. |
| 00:08.20 | golinux | +1 to systemdlete |
| 00:08.27 | systemdlete | +1 to golinux |
| 00:08.36 | systemdlete | tag teaming with golinux |
| 00:08.50 | redrick | +0 to redrick, to balance the scales |
| 00:09.03 | systemdlete | no, -1 to balance |
| 00:09.08 | golinux | Move to debian-fork in the wind? |
| 00:09.09 | systemdlete | 0 won't do crap |
| 00:09.14 | EHeM | systemdlete: At the top of that page 'Drives are classified as "raid" or "non-raid" depending on whether they support SCT/ERC.', more information on SCT/ERC can be found at https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Choosing_your_hardware,_and_what_is_a_device%3F |
| 00:09.31 | redrick | systemdlete: #ThatsTheJoke |
| 00:09.31 | systemdlete | Ah, but that would be hardware raid, right? |
| 00:09.45 | systemdlete | finally gets the joke |
| 00:11.02 | redrick | FWIW, I've used practically any old decent enterprise drive for MD RAID and not yet regretted that. |
| 00:11.43 | fsmithred | A friend of mine was bored at work one day, so he and his co-workers made a raid array of usb sticks. |
| 00:11.48 | systemdlete | I've used probably 8 drives or so, so far |
| 00:12.23 | redrick | As that page says, e.g., WD 'Green' drives are examples of 'No, really, not enterprise.' There are others. |
| 00:14.03 | systemdlete | I wonder if I need new glasses, or I have just become TOO adept at skimming. Thanks, EHeM. Shame on me for not taking the time to read ALL of the page, at least the intro material. |
| 00:15.17 | systemdlete | Looks like at least one of my disks, a barracuda drive might be non-raid. But I am using software raid, how would a hardware feature impact this? |
| 00:15.19 | systemdlete | reads on |
| 00:15.32 | redrick | is part of today's Lucky 10,000 to learn the specific term SCT/ERC, but previously avoided disaster by eschewing cruddy desktop drives for anything serious. |
| 00:16.13 | redrick | Seagate Barracuda in my experience tends to be non-crud. What model? |
| 00:16.27 | systemdlete | oh. I see now. |
| 00:16.41 | systemdlete | 7 second limit vs endless hang waiting on the drive. |
| 00:16.48 | redrick | Yeppers. |
| 00:17.23 | redrick | In WD's dictionary, 'green' means 'customer doesn't really care about ensuring data integrity'. |
| 00:17.37 | systemdlete | ST3000DM001, but mine is a 1T, so maybe ST1000DM001, and I'm not even using that drive in my raid now. So maybe not an issue |
| 00:17.52 | systemdlete | save planet, not data? |
| 00:19.57 | redrick | Either of those is pitched as a desktop drive, but they look to a quick-eyeballing OK for RAID, AFAIK. |
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| 00:19.59 | fsmithred | please explain for mere mortals |
| 00:20.13 | fsmithred | limit vs. hang |
| 00:21.01 | redrick | fsmithred: If half a drive pair is waiting for the next ice age to actually write out data, that creates a problem upon power loss, etc. |
| 00:21.16 | fsmithred | oh, got it. |
| 00:21.23 | EHeM | The problem with installing a hypervisor on a new server is you start finding uses for any excess processor or memory; first my server got replaced simply due to running out of memory (had been on a machine with a mere 384MB, but the hardware still worked!); now it has a fileserver VM and an Android calendar/contacts backup VM. |
| 00:21.27 | fsmithred | write now, sleep later, please |
| 00:21.42 | systemdlete | Apparently, when the TLER feature is enabled, the drive is guaranteed to return in 7 seconds rather than hang possibly forever -- I think that is what is to be inferred. |
| 00:21.58 | redrick | systemdlete: ja |
| 00:24.40 | fsmithred | and what information in the smartctl output is relevant? |
| 00:30.08 | plasma41 | I migrated my home directory from a single ext4 partition to a two disk mirrored btrfs volume this week. |
| 00:31.23 | EHeM | The pages state `smartctl -l scterc` should give the information, but I suspect that requires a version of `smartctl` newer than what is in stable/ascii. |
| 00:32.32 | plasma41 | Unlike with standard raid, I could write garbage data to one of the disk and btrfs would be able to detect and fix it. |
| 00:32.42 | systemdlete | EHeM, fsmithred: On Ascii, I installed smartctl (gsmartcontrol) and I see sct listed at the end if I pass "-c" |
| 00:34.30 | plasma41 | I usually run the gsmartcontrol frontend to smartctl instead, but when running smartctl directly, the '-a' option outputs everything IIRC. |
| 00:36.11 | EHeM | Looks like those pages fail to document a crucial factor, I'm guessing SCT/ERC is an IDE/SATA feature, not something SCSI/SAS drives need support for. |
| 00:40.00 | fsmithred | cool, it's there. |
| 00:41.05 | fsmithred | WD Black |
| 00:44.53 | EHeM | Isn't there, but I doubt it matters for a ST3000NM0023. |
| 00:53.23 | systemdlete | https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Choosing_your_hardware,_and_what_is_a_device%3F#TLER_and_SCT.2FERC "If it's available this feature needs to be enabled." OK, how? I don't see the mechanism in smartctl. Or is this somewhere else in the system? |
| 00:53.51 | systemdlete | 2 of 4 of my drives support sct/erc. |
| 00:56.35 | systemdlete | oh, I see. It's those ,N,M suffixes... |
| 00:58.19 | systemdlete | so if I don't read EVERY LAST WORD OF EVERY LAST OPTION of some particular man page, I could overlook the solution. |
| 00:59.01 | fsmithred | you can search in man pages |
| 00:59.05 | EHeM | Tried looking at the page linked from there, https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Timeout_Mismatch |
| 00:59.48 | systemdlete | under the -l option, the man page says the following PRINTS either the smart error log, or the self-test error log, blah blah blah. It does not say in that intro to the -l option that some of the sub options allow you to set the values. So, I went to look at other options instead. |
| 01:00.46 | systemdlete | Yes, EHeM. Got it already. LOL. It would be nice if the man page were a bit more... I don't know how to say it. Better laid out? idk |
| 01:01.25 | systemdlete | Yes, the info IS there. But too much digging to find it. Better layout would be nice in many unix and linux man pages |
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| 01:04.27 | systemdlete | cat /sys/block/sd?/device/timeout: All 4 drives show 30 (3 secs) |
| 01:05.13 | systemdlete | or is that really 30 secs... hmmm |
| 01:05.23 | systemdlete | maybe not the same scaling |
| 01:06.00 | systemdlete | the short script on that page suggests 180 as a value. So is that 3 minutes? 18 seconds? |
| 01:07.35 | systemdlete | It's seconds, per an article about scsi drives on ibm's site. But that prob applies to ati also |
| 01:07.39 | systemdlete | ata |
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| 01:26.13 | EHeM | Funny thing is for Linux ATA disks no longer exist, everything plugs into the SCSI subsystem which was much better written than the IDE subsystem was, so when SATA showed up they decided the SCSI subsystem was easier to interface with. |
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| 02:49.40 | redrick | EHeM: It'd be more accurate to say that libata author Jeff Garzik decided that leveraging the SCSI layer made it easier for him to code libata, which drives many PATA and SATA ATAs. And also SATA deliberately borrowed SCSI features, to the point that the next-generation SCSI, SAS, could then be created as just a compatible SATA superset with better-developed device addressing. |
| 02:50.07 | redrick | confesses to being a SCSI bigot in dinosaur days. |
| 02:51.46 | redrick | kept a page about Linux support of SATA that for a decade was the primary reference on the Internet, which scared him since he didn't then use SATA, only collect data on it. |
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| 03:27.39 | redrick | Anyway, libata was such a success and was so consistently well maintained where older ATA drivers were not that eventually all the HBA drivers that used /dev/hdX addressing became (to my knowledge) obsolete and (AFAIK) got dropped from the kernel. Which, et voila, brought about the eclipse of non-SCSI addressing of mass storage. |
| 03:28.24 | redrick | For a SCSI bigot like yr. humble correspondent, that's a happy ending. |
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| 08:29.31 | Venker | hi people, good morning |
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| 14:41.50 | nemo | /bin/sh: 1: compress: not found |
| 14:42.01 | nemo | anyone have any idea at all how to enable compress w/ debian tar? |
| 14:42.08 | nemo | (that's for a tar -cZf |
| 14:42.10 | nemo | ) |
| 14:43.11 | KatolaZ | apt-get install ncompress |
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| 14:55.37 | nemo | ah thanks. was running through synaptic results but just getting confused |
| 15:06.55 | furrywolf | am I the only one who doesn't like synaptic? |
| 15:07.03 | furrywolf | I find it to make doing something things annoyingly complex. |
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| 15:28.48 | nemo | furrywolf: one thing synaptic breaks very very very easily is installing alternate versions of packages |
| 15:29.02 | nemo | furrywolf: apt-get -t stable-backports is basically the only sane way to do it |
| 15:29.26 | nemo | apart from that I rather like synaptic, and I'm a commandline fan |
| 15:29.48 | nemo | but maybe I just am not familiar enough with debian tools for searching packages |
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| 15:30.29 | nemo | furrywolf: what would you use, for example, for a sortable search based on keyword of package name or description or contents that includes both installed and not installed, sortable, with status |
| 15:30.35 | nemo | hm. I said sortable twice ð |
| 15:30.41 | nemo | it's important to me ð |
| 15:30.58 | nemo | being able to then select the ones for uninstall/install easily would be nice, but could just copy and paste I guess |
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| 20:05.28 | Hund | furrywolf: Is there something that you actually like? |
| 20:06.07 | buZz | havent seen it |
| 20:06.23 | golinux | Me either |
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| 20:06.52 | golinux | Wrong channel for this discussion though . . . |
| 20:06.58 | buZz | hey golinux! how was your amsterdam trip? |
| 20:07.06 | buZz | did you have fun? |
| 20:07.41 | furrywolf | I like icewm. :P |
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| 20:07.46 | furrywolf | bbl, time for work. I like money too. |
| 20:07.48 | golinux | pm |
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