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| 01:59.24 | slvr | Hmmmm. Super glitchy graphics after upgrading from ascii to beowulf |
| 02:01.40 | slvr | I think display compositing got enabled.... Menus keep moving around and the edges where shadows would be are flickering.... |
| 02:02.42 | slvr | My solution last time was to use fluxbox but maybe I'll fix it the right way this time. Any idea how to make mate work again? |
| 02:03.07 | fsmithred | turn off compositing? |
| 02:03.18 | slvr | "comp" returns no results in control center |
| 02:03.36 | fsmithred | they might have some clever name for it |
| 02:03.43 | slvr | lucky me |
| 02:03.52 | slvr | I love "clever" software |
| 02:03.55 | fsmithred | I don't know mate very well |
| 02:04.07 | fsmithred | lol, I understand |
| 02:04.18 | slvr | ha. we're both here, after all. |
| 02:05.01 | fsmithred | good point |
| 02:05.06 | fsmithred | there's always xfce |
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| 02:05.22 | slvr | oh god no that's even worse |
| 02:05.46 | slvr | mate is Old Gnome. XFCE is a lightweight core with lots of New Gnome bolted on. |
| 02:06.05 | fsmithred | yeah, it's a basic desktop. I use it mostly. |
| 02:06.14 | slvr | It's sloooooooooooow though |
| 02:06.41 | fsmithred | oh, everyone who comes from another linux or from windows says it's fast. |
| 02:06.45 | slvr | I ran xfce on a pentium 133 before they started adding gnome components |
| 02:06.54 | fsmithred | you got spoiled by fluxbox. |
| 02:07.02 | slvr | fluxbox and icewm are very nice |
| 02:07.06 | fsmithred | lol, it works better on newer computers |
| 02:07.19 | fsmithred | I ran gnome on a p166 |
| 02:07.25 | slvr | I disagree. The computer works better. The desktop is stil la dog. |
| 02:07.32 | fsmithred | but only a couple times |
| 02:07.42 | fsmithred | it was painful |
| 02:07.55 | slvr | kde 2 ran pretty ok on a pentium. 3 needed more oomph |
| 02:08.19 | slvr | I have a p75 here, if anyone is remotely interested in devuan running on it. |
| 02:08.31 | slvr | slackware works. :) |
| 02:08.55 | fsmithred | I'm sure you could do it. Just be selective about software. |
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| 02:09.06 | slvr | vim took 5 minutes to start |
| 02:09.14 | fsmithred | ouch |
| 02:09.42 | slvr | I got it down to 30 seconds by switching to a kernel that used less memory |
| 02:09.46 | gnarface | oh they took 586 support out of the debian kernels didn't they? |
| 02:09.50 | slvr | yeah |
| 02:09.55 | gnarface | bummer |
| 02:09.56 | slvr | 686 and up now |
| 02:10.19 | slvr | I have a box that is SOOOOO CLOOOOOSE but not quite there. p200 mmx |
| 02:10.34 | slvr | a year newer and it'd be a ppro |
| 02:11.00 | gnarface | i think it might be a fairly easy thing to recompile it back in |
| 02:11.07 | slvr | yeah the kernel is cake |
| 02:11.12 | slvr | userland.... takes a while |
| 02:11.30 | gnarface | hmm |
| 02:11.48 | gnarface | i bet with distcc you could use both of them at once |
| 02:12.28 | gnarface | maybe cut the time to compile userland in half? |
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| 02:13.16 | slvr | I work at a cloud provider.... Compiling on a few dozen modern intel cores at once might be faster. |
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| 02:31.26 | Digit | what are devuan release names based on? can someone remind me? |
| 02:31.34 | Digit | failing to find answer expediently enough for conversation eleswhere |
| 02:32.05 | Digit | minor planets, nm, got it. |
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| 02:33.08 | Digit | amusing when you try dive deeper for the info, when it's the sort of info that's presented on the main page of the website. n_n |
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| 04:12.13 | bleb | for some reason a mail sent from my new devuan install says User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) |
| 04:12.22 | bleb | i'm certain i did apt install mutt |
| 04:12.28 | bleb | and there's no neomutt package |
| 04:12.33 | bleb | so is devuan's mutt package really neomutt? |
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| 04:38.53 | golinux | bleb: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=neomutt&release=any |
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| 04:39.55 | golinux | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=mutt&release=any |
| 04:42.43 | bleb | so the mutt in ascii is 1.7.2 |
| 04:42.55 | bleb | question remains why does it say neomutt in my user agent header |
| 04:47.48 | bleb | mutt -v prints this: http://ix.io/1ImY |
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| 05:07.37 | gnarface | bleb: is it possible you inherited that value from an old config file? |
| 05:08.56 | gnarface | (i'm not actually using it so i don't know for sure neomutt isn't in the mutt package) |
| 05:09.18 | bleb | not possible |
| 05:09.24 | bleb | i never did anything neomutt |
| 05:09.32 | gnarface | either way, it looks like you should be able to set it to something else |
| 05:09.39 | bleb | yeah |
| 05:09.55 | bleb | i don't so much mind the user agent, i'm just concerned that the mutt package is actually neomutt |
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| 05:22.49 | KatolaZ | bleb: IIRC the mutt packahe in debian has merged stuff from neomutt for quite a while |
| 05:23.00 | KatolaZ | and IIRC, mutt is actually neomutt in Debian |
| 05:29.43 | bleb | oh man |
| 05:29.59 | bleb | classic debian, shoulda known |
| 05:30.32 | bleb | it does look like they've diverged in buster though, as there's a neomutt package |
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| 07:32.07 | xinomilo | https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero/ |
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| 08:26.27 | enyc | meows |
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| 19:14.03 | reubyawn | hi |
| 19:15.46 | Hund | reubyawn: Hey! |
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| 19:17.36 | reubyawn | does devuan fully function using a macbook pro laptop? |
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| 19:18.47 | gnarface | probably not "fully" but probably mostly, on some of them. it probably really depends a lot on exactly which macbook |
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| 19:22.11 | reubyawn | how could I test it on my late 2013 hardware and does ISO have the UEFI package? |
| 19:22.52 | gnarface | hmmm, good question... |
| 19:23.03 | gnarface | late 2013 should be intel hardware |
| 19:23.16 | gnarface | shouldn't be a problem to just try a live image |
| 19:23.21 | gnarface | but i admit i'm not sure it'll work |
| 19:23.23 | reubyawn | yes, 64-bit |
| 19:25.09 | gnarface | not sure about the UEFI thing either. some people disable secure-boot, but you can provide your own key too if the firmware allows it |
| 19:25.33 | gnarface | i think the correct way to say that is that it should work with EFI but you might need to intervene manually to make UEFI work |
| 19:26.12 | gnarface | but macs are different, openfirmware might complicate things |
| 19:26.35 | gnarface | https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/desktop-live/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_desktop-live.iso |
| 19:26.45 | gnarface | try booting this live image |
| 19:26.47 | reubyawn | I tried ubuntu and the mac overheated, so would like to try debian, which devuan is, correct? |
| 19:27.01 | Hund | Yes. |
| 19:27.31 | gnarface | it's basically like debian was up through wheezy |
| 19:27.42 | gnarface | that's where debian diverged from it's own path |
| 19:27.56 | gnarface | devuan preserved the original direction |
| 19:28.18 | reubyawn | I did not know that, thx |
| 19:29.15 | Hund | reubyawn: Why did you choose Devuan over Debian then? :P |
| 19:31.13 | gnarface | there's no need to even ask. guaranteed he asked about a mac in #debian and they were dicks to him. |
| 19:31.30 | Hund | :) |
| 19:31.45 | reubyawn | now, how is ISO written to a stick or does it need to be CD/dVd? |
| 19:31.58 | Hund | I use dd. |
| 19:32.37 | gnarface | reubyawn: they're all hybrid-iso format now, so you don't have to do anything special. dd is popular, but cp is smart enough to do it too. it should work from any usb stick just as easily as a optical disk. |
| 19:34.20 | gnarface | reubyawn: assuming the live image boots, the first thing you'll want to do to verify it's not going to overheat is probably install "lm-sensors" if it's not included on the live image already, then run "sensors-detect" as root |
| 19:34.36 | reubyawn | what syntax works with dd & cp? I recently switched from m$ |
| 19:35.13 | stiltr | When I installed Kali on a MBP, I had to add a couple packages to get it to control the fans. That may be your issue. |
| 19:35.40 | gnarface | reubyawn: cp [in file] [out file] |
| 19:35.49 | gnarface | reubyawn: dd if=[in file] of=[out file] |
| 19:36.53 | fsmithred | the amd64 desktop-live should boot on the macbook |
| 19:37.01 | gnarface | reubyawn: in this case, [in file] would be devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_desktop-live.iso and [out file] would be the /dev/sdc or whatever your usb key is showing up as. it is very important to make sure you get [out file] correct or you can easily hose your entire existing install pointing it at the wrong device. |
| 19:37.24 | gnarface | (there will be no safety check or confirmation of this action) |
| 19:39.04 | gnarface | microsoft software tends to train you to expect warnings when you're about to do something dangerous. linux generally will not. |
| 19:39.33 | stiltr | I like to add status=progress to dd calls. (dd status=progress [in] [out]) |
| 19:39.59 | reubyawn | I like the debian net install concept, where ISO fits on a CD and build from there. |
| 19:40.00 | gnarface | yea since the copy will be very slow, that's not a bad idea. cp can give progress too though. |
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| 19:41.19 | gnarface | reubyawn: (there are netinstall images just like theirs here https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/ ... but i advised the live image first just as a way for you to test hardware compatibility without committing to anything first) |
| 19:44.22 | reubyawn | I donât see the difference between netinstall/live? It will fly or not. |
| 19:44.49 | gnarface | live will let you test out all the hardware more easily without actually writing anything to the harddrive |
| 19:45.44 | gnarface | it's not just as simple as it booting or not booting |
| 19:46.14 | reubyawn | solved, will give live a go. |
| 19:47.03 | gnarface | audio device support, loading the right video drivers, laptop keyboard function key mappings, etc... all that stuff is a lot more difficult to verify from the netinstall without actually completing an install first. don't let me stop you from using the netinstall first instead, i was just trying to minimize risk for whatever your previous install was |
| 19:47.57 | gnarface | i wouldn't want you to overwrite the whole thing and then realize you hate it because there's no hardware opengl acceleration available for your video card or something like that (i don't know, just an example) |
| 19:48.22 | gnarface | it's common these days to actually have partial functionality |
| 19:48.35 | gnarface | like generic framebuffer drivers or something like that in lieu of something that supports the hardware fully |
| 19:49.11 | reubyawn | also, Iâm new to IRC and do I sign into this room using â#devuanâ w/o any password? |
| 19:49.24 | gnarface | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:49.54 | gnarface | you might want to register your handle with NickServ but that's a IRC network-level thing, not specific to this channel |
| 19:50.13 | reubyawn | Is that from the freenet console? |
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| 19:50.21 | gnarface | freenode*, yes |
| 19:50.56 | gnarface | you can get all kinds of help with /help |
| 19:51.14 | reubyawn | thx, bye |
| 19:51.21 | gnarface | no problem, good luck |
| 19:51.24 | gnarface | let us know how it works out |
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| 19:57.07 | cosurgi | question: what's the best way to backport latest g++ version to ascii ? |
| 19:57.26 | cosurgi | is the some release-backports to put into /etc/apt/sources.list ? |
| 19:57.58 | cosurgi | Or maybe not the latest, just a package with some relatively recent version of g++ |
| 19:58.17 | gnarface | there is ascii-backports. did you check there for it? |
| 19:58.41 | gnarface | oh, nevermind, it's probably not there actually |
| 19:58.58 | gnarface | i did this once before and ended up backporting half the next release to make it work |
| 19:59.44 | gnarface | it might not be worth it, if you can get away with just installing testing or unstable in a chroot and building whatever it is you need the new g++ version for in there |
| 19:59.52 | gnarface | that's what i've been doing anyway |
| 20:00.26 | cosurgi | Hmm.. yeah. I already have 7 chroots: bionic buster cosmic disco sid stretch xenial |
| 20:00.35 | gnarface | the technique is also useful for building for foreign architectures |
| 20:00.44 | cosurgi | and a nice script to start screen in all of them. I wanted it localy though |
| 20:00.55 | gnarface | that way you don't muck up your main install though |
| 20:01.19 | cosurgi | yeah. I checked. It;s not in ascii-backports |
| 20:02.29 | gnarface | mixing stuff created for different releases tends to cause weird problems |
| 20:02.37 | cosurgi | I'll check if I can backport it with simple `apt-get build-dep` and `dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b -j32` |
| 20:03.26 | gnarface | it might work, but what i discovered previously is that you have to recursively do that for all the dependencies down to libc first, and by the time you've done that, you might as well have just upgraded to the next release |
| 20:04.02 | cosurgi | But did you rebuild g++ or install *deb ? |
| 20:04.36 | gnarface | i was actually building something else that needed a newer [everything] including g++ |
| 20:04.47 | gnarface | the dpkg-buildpackage method did work |
| 20:05.01 | cosurgi | and..? |
| 20:05.15 | cosurgi | if you installed the package built on local system... |
| 20:05.17 | cosurgi | ahh! ok. |
| 20:05.18 | gnarface | well like i said, when i was done i realized i'd replaced like 80% of the installation with hand-backported packages |
| 20:05.19 | cosurgi | I get it. |
| 20:05.32 | cosurgi | All the library.so were linked with wrong linker version. |
| 20:05.32 | gnarface | it wasn't worth it. but i was following orders |
| 20:05.33 | cosurgi | thanks! |
| 20:05.39 | cosurgi | So I can't do that. |
| 20:06.36 | cosurgi | OK. I will export DISPLAY from chroot. And will have my gvim in there. |
| 20:07.06 | gnarface | i think that will work |
| 20:07.16 | gnarface | you could always use virtualization too, then just ssh in |
| 20:07.23 | cosurgi | nah |
| 20:07.23 | gnarface | but that might be overcomplicating things |
| 20:07.40 | cosurgi | I have done a (nearly) perfect chroot automaton. |
| 20:08.04 | cosurgi | Will put it on some wiki somewhere later. It's worth sharing. |
| 20:08.17 | gnarface | cool |
| 20:12.06 | cosurgi | oh, btw, does devuan have some wiki? I was thinking about wiki for my software: https://yade-dem.org/wiki/Yade |
| 20:12.11 | cosurgi | I could put it on devuan wiki :) |
| 20:12.36 | gnarface | there's this forum here: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
| 20:13.07 | cosurgi | oh! I didn't know about that. Cool! |
| 20:13.32 | cosurgi | I guess that wold go into a DIY section :) |
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| 21:28.44 | reubyawn | LIVE flies OOTB |
| 21:30.26 | fsmithred | reubyawn, if your hardware wants 32-bit grub, the package is in / |
| 21:30.51 | fsmithred | you can install it before running the installer or else do it in chroot in the middle of the install |
| 21:32.09 | reubyawn | why 32-bit grub when LIVE/macbook is 64-bit? |
| 21:32.25 | gnarface | he said "if" |
| 21:33.02 | gnarface | it's not uncommon for some ARM hardware to be 64-bit but still need to boot in 32-bit mode. i don't know if that's the case for macbooks |
| 21:33.55 | gnarface | also note that the live installer won't have the same flexibility as the debian-style netinstall images. it basically just mirrors the live install to the drive |
| 21:34.12 | gnarface | so if you want more flexibility at install time, use the netinstall image |
| 21:35.03 | reubyawn | For now, Iâll burnin LIVE, but can LIVE incorporate persistance, so data can survive reboot? |
| 21:36.07 | gnarface | live can incorporate persistence, but if you use the installer that's included on the live desktop, you don't need to bother with that, it will still make a regular install. i didn't mean it literally mirrors the live image to the disk, i mean it just uses the same package selection and base configurations for those packages. |
| 21:36.42 | gnarface | so it won't ask you questions |
| 21:37.05 | gnarface | it'll just replicate (uses refracta) |
| 21:37.16 | reubyawn | one subtle issue is the small desktop icons. how are they enlarged? |
| 21:38.05 | gnarface | uh, i don't know. i think that's probably a xfce setting in this case |
| 21:38.15 | gnarface | make sure your DPI is set right too |
| 21:38.28 | gnarface | or, make sure the DPI is set right first, i mean |
| 21:38.41 | gnarface | but i do think there's an icon size setting in there somewhere also |
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| 21:39.32 | reubyawn | I found text, but not icon zoom |
| 21:40.18 | gnarface | settings->desktop->icons ? |
| 21:40.42 | gnarface | menu->settings->display? |
| 21:40.46 | gnarface | something like that? |
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| 21:41.24 | gnarface | a quick google search suggests to me that maybe people are using the whisker menu plugin to get control over icon sizes |
| 21:42.08 | gnarface | i believe it's not installed by default, but it is in the repo |
| 21:42.29 | gnarface | you might be used to some other distro that included it by default |
| 21:42.30 | reubyawn | I guess DPI would be trial-n-error |
| 21:42.31 | golinux | Xfce does it in settings > appearance > settings |
| 21:43.04 | gnarface | eh, the manufacturer should have provided accurate screen DPI values in the user manual or the specs on the box... |
| 21:43.19 | gnarface | in a worst-case scenario you can get out a ruler and do some math |
| 21:44.21 | gnarface | for something like a macbook, the internet should already know this though |
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| 21:44.54 | gnarface | that is something Apple customers care about |
| 21:44.56 | reubyawn | other question, which IRC app does LIVE like for this room? |
| 21:45.15 | gnarface | i don't know if there is one |
| 21:45.23 | fsmithred | there are icons on desktop for larger/smaller font |
| 21:45.27 | fsmithred | and icons |
| 21:45.28 | gnarface | i like hexchat for IRC |
| 21:46.00 | gnarface | (it's just a fork of xchat because xchat went non-free) |
| 21:46.14 | reubyawn | is hexchat CLI |
| 21:46.19 | gnarface | no |
| 21:46.40 | gnarface | if you want a command-line irc client, i think irssi is popular |
| 21:48.04 | reubyawn | the plan is not to mess with internal SSD, only use USB 3.0 external |
| 21:48.12 | FlibberTGibbet | weechat is also great if you adore lots of hair-trigger options :) |
| 21:48.34 | gnarface | you can pass simple regexp patterns to "apt-cache search" to find stuff. try: apt-cache search irc.*cli |
| 21:48.43 | reubyawn | NO bloat here |
| 21:49.05 | FlibberTGibbet | weechat is cli |
| 21:49.51 | FlibberTGibbet | it was just written by someone who found emacs to be a bit unconfigurable for their taste |
| 21:50.09 | gnarface | reubyawn: note that the install feature in the live image may not even give you a choice of target disk. it might just pick the first one it finds |
| 21:50.44 | gnarface | it would be a good idea to use the netinstall if you need to pick a specific disk and preserve another OS install |
| 21:51.05 | gnarface | though i guess nothing really is stopping you from doing a chroot + debootstrap install from the live image either |
| 21:51.37 | reubyawn | Then Iâd want to add persistence to the existing stick, if possible . . . |
| 21:52.10 | gnarface | that'll slow you way down but it is possible. afaik it works just like persistence on the debian live images |
| 21:52.30 | fsmithred | can't add persistence to the stick if you used dd to create it |
| 21:52.42 | gnarface | oh, well you have to repartition |
| 21:53.30 | gnarface | i think you could do it with gparted though, no? |
| 21:53.53 | fsmithred | that works on the 32-bit isos, but not on the 64 |
| 21:54.04 | fsmithred | has to do with the uefi stuff |
| 21:54.10 | gnarface | oh |
| 21:54.56 | reubyawn | did you post a netinst ISO for starters |
| 21:56.08 | denPes | hello |
| 21:56.39 | denPes | anyone here using beowolf release? |
| 21:56.39 | gnarface | yes, in here reubyawn https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/ |
| 21:56.52 | gnarface | https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso |
| 21:57.47 | denPes | can i just use beowolf, or is it better to stick to ascci, when it comes to issues and stuff |
| 21:58.33 | gnarface | a few people are, denPes. i'm not sure exactly who. you might have to wait a while to talk to them. if you have to ask that question though, you're better off sticking with ascii and using ascii-backports for newer drivers and mesa etc. |
| 22:00.09 | denPes | right well, well i don't use newer hardware really, so i don't really need newer drivers. currently still using kernel 4.4.x release, and that's fine with me, it's just the software which i like to have newer. |
| 22:01.12 | denPes | and with buster just around the corner, it might be better to go for beowolf |
| 22:01.59 | fsmithred | I've got a beowulf install that I use a little bit. It works. There are a couple minor bugs in xfce that I can't recall right now. |
| 22:02.13 | denPes | ah okay |
| 22:02.23 | fsmithred | it's still not finished, so even if stuff is working, we might break it temporarily |
| 22:02.34 | reubyawn | lively room, wishing you a happy day, bye |
| 22:02.45 | denPes | well i use cwm,so not really an issue for me either |
| 22:02.50 | gnarface | have a good one reubyawn |
| 22:02.53 | denPes | bye reubyawn |
| 22:02.57 | fsmithred | good luck |
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| 22:13.49 | denPes | i'll just give it a try then,thanks |
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