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| 04:28.10 | furrywolf | anyone here involved with packaging firefox? can someone rush out a build with extension signing disabled, which it should be anyway? |
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| 04:57.57 | furrywolf | I've said for literally years that extension signing was morally wrong, and now they've gone and proved it's technically wrong to. we really should build without it. |
| 04:58.09 | furrywolf | too |
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| 05:22.26 | bleb | they should just drop the current firefox branch and start developing firefox as a fork of pale moon |
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| 06:54.37 | jiefk | bleb yes, I wish Pale Moon, Basilisk or Seamonkey to be more in the front line |
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| 09:04.19 | Hund | I use IceCat and I have no issues. |
| 09:04.54 | Hund | I would like to not use anything based of Firefox as my secondary browser at all though. Their addons is pretty good though. |
| 09:14.12 | r3boot | Tsja; extension signing does solve a real problem. The issue at hand here is more related to Mozilla operations then FF tbh |
| 09:15.20 | r3boot | expired certificates happens to (almost) everyone who handles certificates, btw, until $org learns to automate the process (if at all possible) |
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| 09:28.02 | brocashelm | otter is my favorite secondary browser |
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| 11:13.43 | jiefk | I'm still with my laptop having some troubles and I'm searching how to untangle things. |
| 11:15.11 | jiefk | From the most visible things, with the 4.19.0.2 kernel, SDDM or LightDM starts fine and touchpad is working |
| 11:15.39 | jiefk | with 4.19.0.4, X does not start and I have no touchpad |
| 11:17.01 | jiefk | Can someone point me to some commands I can use to find what's going on ? |
| 11:31.29 | rrq | maybe "less /var/log/Xorg.0.log" says something? |
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| 13:36.25 | bdax | is it possible to use some of devuan's packages (network-manager, etc) in debian stretch? |
| 13:39.54 | bdax | or debian jessie if not stretch |
| 13:41.58 | furrywolf | you probably can, but you may run into problems with them depending on other devuan-specific builds |
| 13:50.54 | bdax | hmm |
| 13:50.55 | bdax | couldn't devuan's aim be achieved by providing a custom repository that has none-systemd versions of packages like network-manager, and a script that swaps systemd for sysvinit? |
| 13:53.36 | fsmithred | isn't that what we already do? |
| 13:57.06 | bdax | devuan is a separate distribution isn't it? |
| 13:57.23 | bdax | I mean without being separate from debian |
| 13:57.31 | fsmithred | yes, but we only have about 100 packages |
| 13:57.41 | fsmithred | the rest get merged from debian into our repos |
| 13:57.51 | fsmithred | so most of the packages come from debian unchanged |
| 13:58.16 | fsmithred | but for devuan you need to use only devuan repos - if you mix debian repos you're sure to run into problems |
| 13:58.37 | fsmithred | what's the appeal of devuan's network-manager? |
| 13:58.48 | bdax | does it have to be that way? can't compatibility with debian be maintained? |
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| 13:58.58 | bdax | because it doesn't rely on systemd |
| 13:59.01 | fsmithred | maybe - they're coming around |
| 13:59.23 | fsmithred | recent report from someone running sid without systemd |
| 13:59.30 | fsmithred | and I mean with no systemd packages installed |
| 14:00.02 | bdax | yeah I've done that with stretch by following this: https://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_Stretch_installation |
| 14:00.06 | fsmithred | that's a result of joint efforts between devuan and debian devs |
| 14:00.15 | bdax | but the repository listed there is deprecated so I was wondering about devuan's |
| 14:00.23 | bdax | oh i see |
| 14:00.26 | bdax | so it's official? |
| 14:00.50 | bdax | interesting |
| 14:01.31 | fsmithred | what's official? |
| 14:01.42 | bdax | an official experiment I mean |
| 14:01.43 | KatolaZ | bdax: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/ |
| 14:01.51 | KatolaZ | bdax: experiment of what? |
| 14:01.58 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 14:02.07 | bdax | fsmithred> recent report from someone running sid without systemd |
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| 14:02.19 | fsmithred | yeah, because of elogind |
| 14:03.36 | bdax | well, either way i t would be nice to be able to use debian without systemd, but still use network-manager etc |
| 14:04.05 | fsmithred | I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish |
| 14:04.20 | bdax | debian with sysvinit, with network-manager |
| 14:04.27 | bdax | that's not currently possible afaik |
| 14:04.31 | fsmithred | oh, ok |
| 14:04.43 | bdax | but if I could somehow add devuan's repo to stretch, I could use its network-manager |
| 14:04.59 | furrywolf | you could just use devuan. :) |
| 14:04.59 | fsmithred | well, you can try it, but you may run into problems with policykit, udev, dbus or some other shit |
| 14:05.28 | fsmithred | <furrywolf> you could just use devuan. :) |
| 14:05.38 | fsmithred | well yeah, that's kinda why we made it |
| 14:06.48 | bdax | yeah but switching distros just to remove systemd seems overkill imho, especially downgrading to jessie to do it |
| 14:07.01 | fsmithred | wtf downgrade to jessie? |
| 14:07.14 | bdax | is devuan based off stretch now? |
| 14:07.15 | fsmithred | if you're on stretch, you can migrate to ascii |
| 14:07.20 | bdax | ah okay |
| 14:07.22 | fsmithred | since last june |
| 14:08.01 | fsmithred | you could even upgrade to beowulf (buster) if you're daring. It's pretty good. |
| 14:08.13 | fsmithred | daring and want to participate in testing |
| 14:09.07 | fsmithred | it's not overkill because systemd is so entrenched in everything else, you can't remove it with a simple script. |
| 14:09.51 | furrywolf | we need a debian package that modifies sources, updates, and upgrades... so people can just do apt-get install devuan. :) |
| 14:10.03 | fsmithred | oh |
| 14:10.18 | fsmithred | that would require about four or five commands |
| 14:10.28 | furrywolf | also, it will be very amusing to see what debian says when asked to include it. |
| 14:10.34 | bdax | well I have lot of respect for what devuan's doing, but it seems devuan's work could reach a wider audience if it maintained debian compatibility, so people like me that don't want to switch distros could add its repo, run a script and be done with |
| 14:10.36 | fsmithred | lol |
| 14:10.40 | bdax | and it's clearly possible in a script: https://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_Stretch_installation |
| 14:11.08 | bdax | that manages with a repo with like 4 packages |
| 14:11.09 | KatolaZ | bdax: Debian would have reached a wider audicence if it would have maintained sysvinit compatibility.... |
| 14:11.32 | KatolaZ | they are still opposing many attempts to upstream packages to accomplish that |
| 14:11.38 | KatolaZ | like elogind and eudev |
| 14:11.59 | bdax | that's their business, if some third party provided the means I'd install it manually |
| 14:12.10 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 14:12.18 | fsmithred | bdax, that script adds a repo that replaces a lot of packages which have been re-packaged to not require systemd. That's the same thing we do. |
| 14:12.20 | KatolaZ | devuan is the means |
| 14:12.39 | bdax | fsmithred: exactly, without requiring a distro switch |
| 14:12.40 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:12.45 | bdax | no reinstall needed |
| 14:12.52 | KatolaZ | bdax: resinstall of what? |
| 14:12.55 | fsmithred | no reinstall needed to migrate to devuan |
| 14:12.56 | bdax | my system |
| 14:13.03 | KatolaZ | you can just migrate from debian to devuan |
| 14:13.03 | fsmithred | just upgrade like you would with debian |
| 14:13.06 | KatolaZ | without a problem |
| 14:13.19 | fsmithred | devuan IS debian (about 95% debian) |
| 14:13.28 | bdax | either way, I'd rather not, I'd prefer to keep to debian, but use devuan's repo as in that link |
| 14:13.34 | fsmithred | we put guards at the door so systemd does not sneak in |
| 14:13.44 | bdax | you can do that with pinning |
| 14:13.50 | KatolaZ | bdax: that will require quite a bit of pinning |
| 14:13.58 | fsmithred | yeah |
| 14:13.59 | KatolaZ | but you are free to choose your poison :) |
| 14:14.00 | fsmithred | lol |
| 14:14.09 | bdax | one command in that link |
| 14:14.19 | KatolaZ | great, go with the link |
| 14:14.30 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:14.30 | bdax | the link is deprecated, but it shows it's possible |
| 14:14.44 | fsmithred | yeah, he hasn't kept up with versions |
| 14:14.46 | bdax | devuan is maintained, but requires switching distros |
| 14:15.07 | bdax | I don't mean to sound argumentative, my only question is is can't devuan do the same? maintain compatibility |
| 14:15.09 | fsmithred | switching distros means editing a few lines in sources.list |
| 14:15.11 | furrywolf | bbl, day-starting things |
| 14:15.21 | KatolaZ | bdax: again, we can't |
| 14:15.31 | KatolaZ | because debian is opposing these changes to be upstreamed |
| 14:15.37 | KatolaZ | do you understand that or not? |
| 14:15.50 | bdax | apparently not, why does it need to be upstreamed to be compatible? |
| 14:16.06 | KatolaZ | bdax: remove systemd, and you will find out |
| 14:16.26 | bdax | I just did, it works fine until I install network manager, etc |
| 14:16.31 | KatolaZ | great |
| 14:16.36 | fsmithred | what desktop are you using? |
| 14:16.40 | bdax | bspwm |
| 14:16.53 | fsmithred | yeah, I figured - a window manager |
| 14:16.59 | fsmithred | that does make it a lot easier |
| 14:17.17 | KatolaZ | if you want network-manager you need either a version that patches out the dep on libpam-systemd or you need to use and configure elogind |
| 14:18.59 | fsmithred | brb. need coffee |
| 14:19.48 | bdax | well, good stuff, if it's not possible it's not possible. would be nice though to be able to just add devuan to my apt/sources.list, pin a few things and carry on with debian |
| 14:19.58 | bdax | thanks for listening people, good luck and keep up the good work |
| 14:20.10 | KatolaZ | bdax: just try it |
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| 14:20.17 | KatolaZ | but you need some serious pinning work |
| 14:20.26 | KatolaZ | you'll realise by yourself, maybe |
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| 16:35.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | hi folks. Is there any generic API for adjusting "runtime config" parameters of processes during runtime? Example to explain better: when I start a `scp -l 20000` with bandwidth limit 20Mb/s, is there any *generic* existing best-practice concept how you'd design such cmdline tools so that you could change the "20000" to a different value during runtime? |
| 16:37.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think _some_ programs would tolerate running under gdb and let the variable in memory get modified during runtime. Some for sure will blow chunks when you do such nasty hacks |
| 16:38.39 | bdax | i don't know about standard, but I really like bspwm's approach of listening on a socket, then its client program bspc, a client, sends message to reconfigure it during runtime |
| 16:38.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think there might exist a lib to facilitate this |
| 16:39.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | bdax: sounds good |
| 16:41.37 | bdax | does anyone know if there's a devuan equivalent of these isos: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ |
| 16:42.25 | bdax | otherwise what's the method of enabling wifi adapters that require non-free firmware during installation? |
| 16:49.40 | bdax | ah nvm, I'll just use a second usb I suppose |
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| 16:55.49 | JohnDoe2_ | flashed the devuan 2G image on C201 as instructed in the wiki but the chromebook fails to boot. It loops through the sequence twice and then displays "invalid recovery image". What am I doing wrong? |
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| 17:20.02 | Xenguy | Is there a smaller/lighter image you can use? |
| 17:28.05 | JohnDoe2_ | it's not heavy, I don't think it has xorg installed |
| 17:28.21 | JohnDoe2_ | I also flashed the 16G image directly to the emmc with the same result |
| 17:28.30 | JohnDoe2_ | if however I flash it to a usb stick it boots fine |
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| 17:42.22 | gnarface | if bdax comes back, someone tell him the devuan netinstall already includes the firmware |
| 17:42.37 | gnarface | (but that some popular intel wifi chips need newer versions than what is in ascii) |
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| 20:08.53 | pavlos | howto autologin ... devuan 2.0 ascii |
| 20:10.06 | pavlos | changed /etc/slim.conf autologin yes but it does not |
| 20:10.37 | Syllin | pavlos: you're sure you're using slim, right? you might be configured to use a different DM by accident |
| 20:11.02 | Syllin | you could try uninstalling all DMs with `apt`. i'm just guessing though |
| 20:11.34 | pavlos | Syllin: if I type pstree, I see slim, then Xorg |
| 20:12.18 | Syllin | makes sense, guess that theory is shot |
| 20:13.12 | Syllin | theres a purple note here about having a default user. maybe thats it? https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SLiM#Enable_Autologin |
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| 20:14.36 | pavlos | https://imgur.com/a/nAU02nz |
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| 20:15.44 | pavlos | Edit /etc/slim.conf to uncomment the auto_login command and replace no with yes: ... I did that, rebooted, still asks for user/pw |
| 20:17.17 | gnarface | the user exists, right? |
| 20:17.35 | fsmithred | pavlos, I have 'default_user' and 'auto_login' in use |
| 20:17.37 | pavlos | yes, user |
| 20:18.06 | pavlos | letme find the default_user part |
| 20:18.18 | fsmithred | it's a few lines above auto_login |
| 20:19.14 | pavlos | enabled default_user user and rebooting now |
| 20:20.00 | pavlos | perfect ! ty fsmithred Syllin |
| 20:20.07 | fsmithred | yw |
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| 22:06.28 | JohnDoe2_ | https://files.roundr.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/embedded/README.txt says Veyron/Rockchip Chromebook (chromeveyron) is supported. Where's that image? |
| 22:07.14 | cesspit | hello mates, experience some problems with nvidia opengl 32-bit libraries in ascii, it's of 390.87-8~deb9u1 version while 64bit version is 390.116-1, so 32-bit ones were removes during an update, can't play steam games anymore!!! (my son suffers more to say the truth :) ) |
| 22:07.14 | cesspit | I went to debian forums to learn what's wrong with nvidia in their repos and learned that it's 390.116-1 for both 32 and 64bit there, does anybody know why new packages didn't reach devuan repos till? |
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| 22:09.19 | gnarface | cesspit: i vaguely recall something went wrong with the build and debian got a "secret" fix for it or something like that. did you try the backports versions in the meantime? |
| 22:09.40 | gnarface | JohnDoe2_: in that sub-directory, or the one below it, no? |
| 22:09.59 | JohnDoe2_ | that's the embedded system directory readme |
| 22:11.01 | JohnDoe2_ | if you mean that the image should be there, I don't see it :) |
| 22:11.29 | gnarface | oh, another known issue. it's there in jessie but not ascii. sorry about that |
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| 22:11.53 | gnarface | i think the only reason that hasn't been updated was because someone was waiting on hardware |
| 22:11.55 | JohnDoe2_ | yup I'm running jessie now |
| 22:12.08 | gnarface | (the jessie one was built with borrowed hardware that had to be given back, i think) |
| 22:12.11 | JohnDoe2_ | meaning one has to build the image on the device itself? |
| 22:12.26 | JohnDoe2_ | because I happen to have a functioning C201PA |
| 22:12.33 | gnarface | well, meaning someone didn't want to risk putting up a cross-built image without testing it anyway |
| 22:12.55 | JohnDoe2_ | cool, so how can I help? |
| 22:13.31 | JohnDoe2_ | try to cross compile from https://git.devuan.org/sdk/arm-sdk and slap it on a usb stick? |
| 22:13.54 | gnarface | uh, that might help yes. the right person to ask would probably be jaromil or parazyd |
| 22:14.04 | gnarface | there's a #devuan-arm channel you can hang out in if you want to get their attention |
| 22:14.10 | JohnDoe2_ | I see ok |
| 22:14.49 | gnarface | this conversation had been had before, i remember skimming it. i don't know what the hold-up is though, sorry. they will though, most likely. |
| 22:15.05 | cesspit | gnarface: backports have 410.104 and there are no nvidia-driver/nvidia-driver-bin packages of that version in repos (same in debian), I tried to install them but ended up with half of nvidia packages removed as of conflicts |
| 22:15.41 | JohnDoe2_ | gnarface sounds good thanks a bunch |
| 22:15.44 | gnarface | cesspit: damn. i'm not sure but i think that means they might be updating it right now |
| 22:15.56 | gnarface | JohnDoe2_: no problem, good luck |
| 22:22.01 | gnarface | cesspit: (something that has been reported to work that i would NOT advise, would be to just take that 32-bit version of the package from debian. that should get you back up and running in Steam, and i do know how important that can be, but just be aware that i can't guarantee it won't hose your install at some point in the future after you've forgotten about doing this) |
| 22:22.54 | gnarface | cesspit: (if what i recall is right - that it can't be built and there's mysteriously a working binary in the debian repo of an unbuildable package and Nvidia won't say why - then that package should be treated with the absolute highest amount of suspicion) |
| 22:26.41 | cesspit | gnarface: thanks for the advise, yep seems risky, I'll better keep to what works for now, thanks anyway |
| 22:31.20 | gnarface | cesspit: no problem, i assume the backports version will be finished within a couple days though |
| 22:37.17 | gnarface | they usually don't leave the stable stuff broken for that long |
| 22:37.23 | gnarface | the thing with the 32-bit package is weird... |
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