| 00:15.18 | gnarface | i thought there was a way to trigger it to be regenerated |
| 00:15.58 | gnarface | but the format isn't difficult to do by hand: http://paste.debian.net/1072169/ |
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| 00:29.20 | Xenguy | Thanks DocScrutinizer05 for the ETS article |
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| 04:21.41 | Superbaiter | Given the completion of the next release after ascii, how much do you think it will take before the release? 1y? 2y? 3-5y? |
| 04:22.49 | Superbaiter | (Not asking a mandatory term, just trying to get a vague idea) |
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| 04:26.37 | golinux | Buster is out of the freeze? |
| 04:27.32 | golinux | Beowulf is already quite usable depending on your usecase. Some desktopy things might need some tweaking. |
| 04:28.38 | golinux | Superbaiter: ^^^ |
| 04:30.59 | Superbaiter | golinux, nice, thanks |
| 04:31.40 | Superbaiter | So do you think that in a year or two it will be released? Buster seems close to completion |
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| 08:39.21 | negev | hi, i'm having problems since the ruby packages were upgraded from 2.5.3-3 to 2.5.3-4, but the old version of the debs don't seem to be in apt anymore |
| 08:39.26 | negev | how can i revert them to see if that's the cause? |
| 08:40.41 | gnarface | if you installed ruby gems, they may need to be updated too |
| 08:40.50 | gnarface | i don't think there's any snapshots yet |
| 08:42.33 | negev | snapshots? |
| 08:42.49 | negev | i don't know for sure if this is the cause, i'm going purely on a timeline from when the issues started |
| 08:43.44 | gnarface | well normally with debian you'd use their snapshots |
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| 08:44.11 | negev | so you're saying there's no way to roll back to the previous debs? they aren't hosted anywhere? |
| 08:44.40 | gnarface | no, i'm not saying that, i'm just saying i don't know where you'd get them since there's no devuan snapshots service yet |
| 08:44.53 | gnarface | check /var/cache/apt, maybe you will be lucky and the old one will still be in there |
| 08:45.26 | gnarface | but since it is ruby, it is probably some issue with gems not updating automatically |
| 08:46.58 | negev | well the issue is phantomjs randomly dying during execution |
| 08:47.04 | negev | it's being orchestrated by ruby |
| 08:47.10 | negev | but it's a very complex chain of dependencies |
| 08:47.19 | negev | i don't really trust that upgrading gems is going to help, phantomjs isn't even maintained anymore |
| 08:47.28 | gnarface | oh |
| 08:47.29 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 08:48.12 | gnarface | well it's too late to tell you to make a backup |
| 08:48.15 | gnarface | but someone probably should have |
| 08:48.30 | negev | i do snapshot my entire system nightly and keep 7 days |
| 08:49.07 | negev | but i don't think it retains the debs |
| 08:49.07 | gnarface | did this just happen today? you could have the old version in the backup... |
| 08:49.09 | gnarface | oh |
| 08:49.19 | negev | there are no debs in /var/cache/apt/ |
| 08:49.37 | gnarface | it would actually be /var/cache/apt/archives |
| 08:49.43 | gnarface | if you're using apt |
| 08:49.53 | negev | nothing there |
| 08:49.58 | negev | just a lockfile and an empty partial directory |
| 08:50.12 | gnarface | are you using apt? it could be /var/cache/aptitude/... |
| 08:50.24 | negev | doesn't exist |
| 08:50.34 | negev | no debs anywhere in /var/cache |
| 08:50.48 | negev | or anywhere else on the filesystem |
| 08:50.52 | gnarface | bummer |
| 08:51.55 | negev | the old version doesn't show up on the package website |
| 08:52.03 | negev | that seems quite aggressive for a minor version bump doesn't it? |
| 08:52.06 | negev | having no way to roll back? |
| 08:52.44 | gnarface | yea, i agree. but debian has the same exact problem. that's why they provide snapshots of old versions of the repos |
| 08:52.53 | gnarface | but devuan just hasn't got that up yet |
| 08:53.08 | gnarface | which is a real pity |
| 08:53.13 | gnarface | but it's an object lesson in keeping backups too |
| 08:53.23 | negev | well i back up the entire machine |
| 08:53.35 | gnarface | nevertheless, that minor revision might be only incidentally related, or not at all |
| 08:54.18 | gnarface | and even if it is, such a minor version change should be something easy to patch for in phantomjs |
| 08:54.54 | negev | phantomjs isn't maintained anymore |
| 08:54.58 | gnarface | if you have the entire machine backed up, you should be able to test the old version from yesterday's backup, no? |
| 08:54.59 | negev | i don't even know for sure if it's related |
| 08:55.10 | negev | old version of what? |
| 08:55.13 | gnarface | well, i meant to imply you'd be patching phandomjs yourself |
| 08:55.31 | gnarface | old version of ruby |
| 08:55.35 | gnarface | you know, the one you wanted to roll back to |
| 08:57.12 | negev | probably not easy to splice it back into the filesystem |
| 08:57.15 | negev | ruby sprays all over it |
| 08:57.26 | negev | maybe a better approach would be to try to work out exactly why it's crashing |
| 08:57.34 | negev | the problem is it's happening sporadically, most of the time it works |
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| 08:57.52 | negev | maybe i can capture some debug info from it |
| 08:58.19 | gnarface | an error message could be helpful |
| 08:58.24 | gnarface | or just a way to recreate the crash |
| 08:58.29 | negev | "PhantomJS has crashed. Please read the bug reporting guide at |
| 08:58.37 | negev | (url) |
| 08:58.38 | gnarface | heh |
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| 08:58.55 | gnarface | any chances of using something other than phantomjs that is currently maintained? |
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| 09:00.32 | negev | eh i dunno. maybe, but it's probably a lot of effort |
| 09:00.35 | negev | i have a ton of shit using phantom |
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| 15:29.22 | buZz | lol 'dbus is too hard' systemd nonsense :D |
| 15:29.24 | buZz | re: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/machine-id.html |
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| 15:40.29 | r3boot | wow, flashbacks to FlexLM license manager ^_^ |
| 15:40.52 | r3boot | (was part of a lot of ancient unix systems, and also worked based on a similar machine id) |
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| 15:48.58 | buZz | lol yeah i know flexlm |
| 15:49.16 | buZz | i'm just gonna do echo $randomstuff > /etc/machine-id , i guess |
| 15:49.23 | buZz | on each terminal start |
| 15:49.24 | buZz | :D |
| 15:50.19 | fsmithred | Do you have that file? I don't. |
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| 15:51.10 | r3boot | afaik non-systemd distro's dont require that file, although it's needed for some applications |
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| 15:58.58 | buZz | fsmithred: we will soon |
| 15:58.59 | buZz | see ML |
| 15:59.00 | buZz | :P |
| 16:01.42 | KatolaZ | buZz: just remove it |
| 16:02.02 | buZz | :) |
| 16:02.06 | buZz | deletes the ML |
| 16:02.11 | buZz | tnx, that helped |
| 16:04.19 | KatolaZ | AHAHAHAHAHAHAH |
| 16:04.21 | KatolaZ | HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH |
| 16:04.26 | KatolaZ | lmao :D |
| 16:04.58 | buZz | ;) |
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| 17:12.47 | fsmithred | yeah, I'm looking at the mailing list, and I'm about to test something. Will report there. |
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| 17:17.51 | sokan | anyone got any comment to make on T420? :D |
| 17:20.53 | Humpelstilzchen | T420? |
| 17:21.02 | sokan | Humpelstilzchen: thinkpad yeah |
| 17:21.14 | Humpelstilzchen | sokan: What about it? |
| 17:22.10 | sokan | Humpelstilzchen: I'm wondering if it's a good machine for daily tasks and can handle things like T430 (considering it has lower cpu power ofc) |
| 17:23.14 | Humpelstilzchen | sokan: Depends on what you need exactly. Mine still works fine, but easily gets got when running e.g. 5 videos on youtube |
| 17:23.52 | sokan | Humpelstilzchen: the idea is to use for daily stuff. Watching series (in .mkv) or playing some old PS2 games and some web browsing. |
| 17:24.01 | sokan | certainly not more than 4 tabs at a given time :P |
| 17:25.15 | Humpelstilzchen | sokan: Should do, I still use it daily as secondary |
| 17:25.27 | sokan | and devuan work/install fine on it right? |
| 17:25.39 | Humpelstilzchen | sure |
| 17:25.58 | sokan | Humpelstilzchen: I'll be away for 2 months and I need some fast solution to do stuff when at home and some essays etc |
| 17:26.24 | sokan | And in this era a laptop is a must from what I gather :( |
| 17:26.34 | KatolaZ | sokan: I used an x220 for several years |
| 17:26.45 | KatolaZ | it's more or less the same machine, only a 12.5" |
| 17:26.46 | sokan | KatolaZ: you always make me feel good :3 |
| 17:27.00 | sokan | Humpelstilzchen: thanks for the words of comfort too \o/ |
| 17:27.00 | KatolaZ | those are great laptops, IMHO |
| 17:27.02 | Humpelstilzchen | I wouldn't consider a sandy bridge fast, but will do fine for office works |
| 17:27.16 | KatolaZ | well, it depends on what you need to do on them |
| 17:27.30 | sokan | As I said at worse I'll be playing some old games. |
| 17:27.37 | sokan | It'll be mostly for passing time at home. |
| 17:27.47 | sokan | old == early 200-s |
| 17:27.50 | sokan | 2000* |
| 17:27.53 | KatolaZ | oh ok |
| 17:28.06 | KatolaZ | I played some games on the x220 in 2011/2012 |
| 17:28.15 | KatolaZ | mainly FPS |
| 17:28.16 | sokan | :D |
| 17:28.27 | sokan | aha! and these do require some good cpu |
| 17:28.34 | sokan | well, hight fps and all that |
| 17:28.38 | sokan | imho :P |
| 17:28.48 | KatolaZ | Assassin's Creed II and some other |
| 17:28.56 | sokan | good game |
| 17:29.04 | KatolaZ | I don't remember much of it :D |
| 17:29.08 | sokan | haha |
| 17:29.14 | KatolaZ | I should still have the dvd somewhere |
| 17:29.15 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 17:29.27 | sokan | I recall jumping between buildings and something abotu aliens XD |
| 17:30.37 | Humpelstilzchen | sokan: btw avoid the models with the nvidia card |
| 17:30.52 | sokan | mine has integradted HD graphics iirc |
| 17:31.09 | sokan | s/integradted/intel |
| 17:31.17 | Humpelstilzchen | they all do, but some have an additional nv |
| 17:33.30 | sokan | oh |
| 17:33.34 | sokan | I'll ask about it |
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| 17:34.27 | fsmithred | KatolaZ, /var/lib/dbus/machine-id gets regenerated on boot if it's not present. Otherwise, it's the same number every time. |
| 17:39.02 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: ok, can you please open a bug against dbus? |
| 17:39.22 | KatolaZ | critical |
| 17:39.24 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 17:40.21 | KatolaZ | we should change the dbus init script |
| 17:40.28 | KatolaZ | this looks like an easy fix |
| 17:42.04 | KatolaZ | I was convinced we had changed that already, but I was wrong |
| 17:49.53 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: replied to your email on DNG |
| 17:50.07 | KatolaZ | we need as many people as possible testing the removal of /etc/machine-id |
| 17:50.17 | KatolaZ | and checking if there is anything that complains about it |
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| 17:59.40 | specing | sokan: it is backdoored, but otherwise an okay machine |
| 18:03.17 | furrywolf | what would ever look at it? |
| 18:04.01 | furrywolf | didn't even know it existed |
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| 18:05.46 | furrywolf | I mean... I can't think of any software that would ever use this data. |
| 18:07.17 | furrymcgee | ye splease remove machine-id |
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| 18:17.18 | KatolaZ | guys just remove it |
| 18:17.23 | KatolaZ | and report any problem |
| 18:17.43 | KatolaZ | /etc/machine-id should only be used by systemd |
| 18:20.19 | KatolaZ | we will find what put it there and fix it :) |
| 18:26.44 | furrywolf | why would systemd need a machine id? |
| 18:28.16 | KatolaZ | furrywolf: ask them |
| 18:31.21 | MinceR | help ibm and the spooks track it |
| 18:31.39 | MinceR | also for support contract purposes |
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| 18:50.55 | sokan | specing: backdoored?? |
| 18:50.58 | sokan | T430 as well? |
| 18:51.12 | sokan | backdooerd by whom? NSA? |
| 18:52.21 | specing | sokan: have you heard of the management engine? |
| 18:52.44 | sokan | specing: nope |
| 18:55.29 | specing | sokan: Oh you sweet summer child |
| 18:55.37 | sokan | haha |
| 18:55.56 | sokan | oh dear |
| 18:56.19 | sokan | I'm so happy I went with amd/ryzen on my desktop |
| 18:57.00 | sokan | oh crud |
| 18:57.04 | sokan | AMD Sec Tech |
| 18:57.06 | sokan | holy cow |
| 18:57.16 | sokan | this is bad |
| 18:57.18 | sokan | this is nasty |
| 18:58.25 | sokan | specing: nothing is non-compromised these days :\ |
| 18:58.32 | sokan | I'm scared of what I see in my twitter |
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| 19:02.39 | fsmithred | KatolaZ, I reported a bug against dbus |
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| 19:04.37 | sokan | ceres is so to say a rolling release? |
| 19:04.46 | specing | sokan: talos is non-compromised, basic ARM too |
| 19:04.57 | specing | sokan: or 2008 era x86 tech |
| 19:05.59 | sokan | I'll certainly try out pine laptop eventually |
| 19:07.09 | sokan | pinebook pro* |
| 19:08.45 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: I am already fixing the bug in dbus |
| 19:09.00 | KatolaZ | and updating it in ceres to the latest version |
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| 19:32.05 | sokan | so ceres is the "bleeding edge" with a stable kernel? |
| 19:40.48 | KatolaZ | sokan: ceres is the same concept as Debian sisd |
| 19:40.50 | KatolaZ | ~sid |
| 19:42.53 | sokan | hmmm |
| 19:43.00 | sokan | doesn't seem like rolling at all. |
| 19:43.15 | sokan | more like alpha testing of the distro |
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| 21:03.36 | sokan | just curious what DE/wm do you people use? |
| 21:03.49 | sokan | users wise. xfce is the default iirc |
| 21:04.25 | MinceR | fvwm |
| 21:04.49 | phogg | e16 forever |
| 21:08.43 | debdog | fluxbox |
| 21:11.33 | KatolaZ | xmonad/wmaker |
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| 21:16.26 | ttkv | liked e16, but eventually switched back to fvwm |
| 21:16.34 | ttkv | safe, sane, forever |
| 21:22.28 | KatolaZ | uset fvwm for a while many years ago |
| 21:22.31 | KatolaZ | it's a decent one |
| 21:25.08 | sokan | hmmm |
| 21:25.24 | sokan | out of these the only one I've actually heard of it xmonad |
| 21:26.11 | sokan | oh wait |
| 21:26.18 | sokan | e16 == enlightenment |
| 21:26.29 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 21:26.32 | sokan | I never evre got around to figuring out how this DE worked XD |
| 21:28.09 | sokan | and fvwm is stacking from what I see |
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| 22:58.05 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: updated dbus |
| 22:58.09 | KatolaZ | 1.12.12-1+devuan2 |
| 22:58.16 | KatolaZ | available in unstable and beowulf |
| 22:58.31 | KatolaZ | it should hit pkgmaster in a couple of minutes |
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| 22:59.09 | KatolaZ | it would replace /var/lib/dbus/machine-id at each boot, unless specified otherwise through a variable in /etc/default/dbus |
| 23:04.26 | shibboleth | anyone care to ELI5 the reason for machine-id even existing? |
| 23:04.38 | shibboleth | management? |
| 23:04.47 | KatolaZ | shibboleth: ask systemd developers :) |
| 23:05.14 | KatolaZ | and BTW a hostid has always existed in unix and unix-like OSes |
| 23:06.35 | shibboleth | asking systemd devs is a lot like asking big tobacco i reckon |
| 23:07.16 | shibboleth | "why is this, exactly"? "don't worry about that, these are not the droids you are looking for, look, a squirrel!" |
| 23:07.50 | KatolaZ | shibboleth: then ask yourself :D |
| 23:08.39 | MinceR | 09 000515 < KatolaZ> and BTW a hostid has always existed in unix and unix-like OSes |
| 23:08.42 | MinceR | hostname? |
| 23:08.47 | KatolaZ | again, /etc/hostid exists since 1982 |
| 23:08.49 | KatolaZ | nope MinceR |
| 23:08.52 | KatolaZ | /etc/hostid |
| 23:09.00 | KatolaZ | it's even in POSIX |
| 23:09.05 | KatolaZ | ans in SUS |
| 23:09.09 | KatolaZ | s/ans/and |
| 23:09.15 | MinceR | looks like this slackware install violates posix |
| 23:09.21 | KatolaZ | maybe :) |
| 23:11.11 | KatolaZ | to be precise, POSIX defines gethostid(2) |
| 23:11.35 | KatolaZ | and it should return a unique, consistent 32-bit identifier of the current host |
| 23:11.55 | KatolaZ | in most implementations, this is kept in /etc/hostid |
| 23:12.09 | MinceR | skeletons keep falling out of the closet |
| 23:12.15 | KatolaZ | or in /var/adm/hostid |
| 23:12.26 | KatolaZ | MinceR: there is no skeleton there |
| 23:12.41 | KatolaZ | it has been there since 4.2BSD |
| 23:13.15 | KatolaZ | we are talking about an "old-school unix" from 35 years ago |
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| 23:57.46 | phogg | maybe somebody decided 32 bits were not enough; machine-id is 128bit. |
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