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| 01:01.37 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | **You need to auth to nickserv to talk!** | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
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| 12:58.26 | xrogaan | so, err, my /run/user is empty |
| 12:58.45 | xrogaan | so is /var/run/user |
| 12:58.55 | xrogaan | I don't think it's normal, is it? |
| 13:01.29 | xrogaan | what would it take to get a XDG_RUNTIME_DIR? |
| 13:02.44 | xrogaan | `When looking at how to implement XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for non-systemd inits, I couldn't find any actual specification for how to do this. That's because there isn't one, just some loosely-worded descriptions; it only exists in the systemd implementation. And the semantics of it are very poor indeed; it hasn't been developed with safety, security or flexibility in mind.` |
| 13:02.48 | xrogaan | Nevermind then. |
| 13:03.20 | xrogaan | So instead, where should I put my runtime things? |
| 13:03.32 | xrogaan | using /tmp isn't really a great idea. |
| 13:04.11 | amesser | xrogaan: sysvinit, no system and I have: |
| 13:04.28 | amesser | set | grep XDG |
| 13:04.38 | amesser | XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=/run/user/1100 |
| 13:04.44 | amesser | so it works without systemd |
| 13:04.50 | xrogaan | I don't though. |
| 13:05.03 | xrogaan | I used to have something un that folder |
| 13:08.01 | amesser | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:08.12 | amesser | Ãbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei ./pam_elogind.so |
| 13:08.12 | amesser | Ãbereinstimmungen in Binärdatei ./pam_gnome_keyring.so |
| 13:08.50 | xrogaan | §yeah? |
| 13:09.07 | amesser | so chance is high it is set by elogind session management daemon |
| 13:10.55 | amesser | if you dont want to use elogind, maybe you can workaround this somehow usiing pam_env |
| 13:11.01 | amesser | however, have to leave now, sorry. |
| 13:13.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | purpy theme ;-D https://youtu.be/69FUuB7rh74?t=340 |
| 13:14.22 | xrogaan | I use elogind |
| 13:16.29 | xrogaan | huh, might be bugged |
| 13:18.17 | xrogaan | loginctl doesn't show my session |
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| 13:35.05 | xrogaan | okay, so, if I start my session through lightdm there is no /run/user/1000 |
| 13:35.21 | xrogaan | if I start a session though tty, I get one. |
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| 13:44.23 | xrogaan | doesn't lightdm make use of /etc/pam.d/common-session ? |
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| 13:53.45 | xrogaan | this fucking shit: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=717297 |
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| 14:12.01 | xrogaan | I don't know what I did, but it seems fixed. |
| 14:12.17 | xrogaan | restarted elogind and lightdm |
| 14:13.06 | xrogaan | I removed systemd from the greeter pam.d thing |
| 14:19.13 | xrogaan | and now, I don't have transparency in my virtual consoles anymore |
| 14:32.51 | xrogaan | I get these weird issues, I have no clue why they happens. |
| 14:33.21 | xrogaan | Sometimes, dnsmasq/resolvconf don't get configured properly at network start and I have to reload /etc/networking |
| 14:33.24 | xrogaan | err |
| 14:33.41 | xrogaan | I meant /etc/init.d/networking* |
| 14:34.38 | xrogaan | is it sysvinit that manage all that? |
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| 15:26.50 | ExtraCrispy | Hello |
| 15:27.14 | ExtraCrispy | So Devuan on QubesOS is not a go to |
| 15:27.30 | ExtraCrispy | I think sysvinit is the caus |
| 15:27.32 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: what is QubesOS? |
| 15:27.36 | ExtraCrispy | casue |
| 15:27.56 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: A distro.Google it. |
| 15:28.09 | KatolaZ | it's based on Fedora, apparently... |
| 15:28.24 | ExtraCrispy | Supposedly is the most secure distro out there. |
| 15:28.28 | KatolaZ | which might indeed be the cause, right? |
| 15:28.36 | KatolaZ | which one? Fedora? |
| 15:28.36 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: Yeah by default it is. |
| 15:28.44 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 15:29.08 | ExtraCrispy | What do you mean? |
| 15:29.57 | KatolaZ | how do you plan to migrate a Fedora do something that is based on Debian? |
| 15:30.21 | KatolaZ | s/ do / to / |
| 15:31.06 | ExtraCrispy | Oh no you misunderstood. |
| 15:31.13 | KatolaZ | sorry then |
| 15:31.28 | ExtraCrispy | I am migrating a Debian 9 VM to Devuan 2 |
| 15:31.50 | nemo | ExtraCrispy: huh. why does qubesos care about systemd? |
| 15:31.53 | KatolaZ | but you mentioned QubesOS |
| 15:32.36 | ExtraCrispy | nemo: No idea. |
| 15:32.56 | nemo | I mean for the guests that is |
| 15:33.25 | nemo | ExtraCrispy: maybe #qubes or #qubes_os would know |
| 15:34.10 | ExtraCrispy | nemo: Yeah i just asked in #qubes |
| 15:34.22 | nemo | ExtraCrispy: are you setting up as Standalone VM? |
| 15:34.30 | nemo | ExtraCrispy: 'cause seems there's no limits on that... BSD... who cares |
| 15:34.38 | nemo | or are you actually trying to hack the distro to use devuan everywhere? |
| 15:34.44 | nemo | in which case not so suprising it fails |
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| 15:35.18 | ExtraCrispy | No im just migrating from Debian |
| 15:35.57 | nemo | rypervenche: slt |
| 15:37.58 | rypervenche | nemo: :P |
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| 15:38.59 | fsmithred | ExtraCrispy, can you describe how it fails? |
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| 15:40.25 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: Just while installing |
| 15:40.35 | ExtraCrispy | The VM just shuts down |
| 15:41.32 | fsmithred | any error logs catch that? |
| 15:41.58 | fsmithred | and at what point does it shut down? What exactly did you do? |
| 15:42.32 | ExtraCrispy | JUst sudo apt-get install sysvinit-core |
| 15:42.50 | ExtraCrispy | As for the ogs please wait cause i deleted the VM |
| 15:44.20 | fsmithred | ok. I can't imagine that qubes polices what packages you install in a VM. |
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| 17:02.46 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: So... |
| 17:03.24 | ExtraCrispy | It seems,not 110% sure though,that the problem exists in 3.2 verwion of QubesOS. |
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| 17:05.36 | ExtraCrispy | The problem is that sysvinit-core removes some needed packages. |
| 17:05.54 | ExtraCrispy | And that makes the VM unbootable. |
| 17:06.31 | ExtraCrispy | And i dont know how to keep those packages with apt |
| 17:07.33 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: you are not the first one to migrate a stretch to ascii, so this sounds strange |
| 17:08.12 | fsmithred | what order did you do things? |
| 17:08.35 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: Well it is also a QubesOS related problem. |
| 17:08.55 | fsmithred | the way I've done it was 1. install sysvinit in debian, 2. changes sources to devuan, update, dist-upgrade 3. reboot into devuan and remove sytemd |
| 17:09.03 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: I don't get why QubesOS should be concerned of what you run inside a VM... |
| 17:09.03 | fsmithred | 1 also reboot |
| 17:09.11 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: Since there is no GUI i just went straight to installing sysvinit-core? |
| 17:09.26 | fsmithred | gui is irrelevant |
| 17:09.51 | fsmithred | install sysvinit-core, reboot, then change sources |
| 17:09.56 | ExtraCrispy | Then installing xfce4 is also irrelevant |
| 17:09.59 | fsmithred | it shouldn't remove stuff |
| 17:10.10 | fsmithred | I don't think (don't really remember) |
| 17:10.27 | fsmithred | your debian is cli only? |
| 17:10.27 | ExtraCrispy | The problem is sysvinit-core removes some important qubess specific packages |
| 17:10.37 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: Ye |
| 17:10.44 | fsmithred | there are cubes packages in debian? |
| 17:11.08 | ExtraCrispy | Oh i just got an idea.Why not apt download sysvinit-core dpkg it and do the rtest? |
| 17:11.31 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: Yes and all templates |
| 17:12.16 | fsmithred | can you tell me a package name? |
| 17:12.24 | fsmithred | I'm looking in debian repo |
| 17:12.33 | fsmithred | or are they third-party packages? |
| 17:12.52 | ExtraCrispy | Third party |
| 17:13.03 | buZz | ExtraCrispy: then they arent in debian ;) |
| 17:13.13 | ExtraCrispy | They are in QubesOS repos |
| 17:13.22 | ExtraCrispy | buZz: Yeah? |
| 17:13.29 | fsmithred | so you either need to edit the templates or maybe get devuan to identify as debian |
| 17:13.38 | fsmithred | depends on what the templates test for |
| 17:13.58 | fsmithred | and maybe play some trickery with package dependencies |
| 17:14.12 | fsmithred | figure out why those packages get removed |
| 17:14.40 | ExtraCrispy | Yeah maybe they hard-depend for some reason |
| 17:14.59 | fsmithred | what are you using for virtualization? |
| 17:15.11 | fsmithred | some qubes built-in stuff? |
| 17:15.42 | ExtraCrispy | Xen hypervisor |
| 17:18.23 | fsmithred | I guess qubes has some special requirements for VMs, and I have no idea what that might be. |
| 17:19.47 | ExtraCrispy | The only issue i see is the removal of some specific packages |
| 17:19.59 | ExtraCrispy | If i could bypass that shit then ok |
| 17:20.13 | ExtraCrispy | But idk if tyhere is ant apt command to do that |
| 17:20.54 | fsmithred | well, paste the error messages you get when you try to install sysv |
| 17:21.08 | fsmithred | track down the deps |
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| 17:22.55 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1050126 |
| 17:23.19 | ExtraCrispy | This shows up when i do install systemd-shim as well |
| 17:23.54 | ExtraCrispy | Which brings some different packages,sysvinit-core being one or 'em. |
| 17:26.03 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: just get rid of qubes-core-agent and qubes-gui-agent |
| 17:26.16 | KatolaZ | they might have hard deps on systemd |
| 17:26.22 | fsmithred | and get rid of systemd-shim |
| 17:26.37 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: LOL?W: Download is performed unsandboxed as root as file '/home/user/sysvinit-core_2.88dsf-59.9_amd64.deb' couldn't be accessed by user '_apt'. - pkgAcquire::Run (13: Permission denied) |
| 17:26.40 | fsmithred | actually, I don't know - I've never used it |
| 17:26.53 | ExtraCrispy | And the weird thing is...It is downloaded |
| 17:27.01 | fsmithred | yup. download as unpriv user |
| 17:27.04 | fsmithred | ??? |
| 17:27.20 | ExtraCrispy | FFS Debian.. |
| 17:27.40 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: Withoiut those VM gets unbootable |
| 17:28.01 | fsmithred | why consolekit? |
| 17:28.06 | fsmithred | you got a desktop? |
| 17:28.34 | ExtraCrispy | No |
| 17:28.42 | ExtraCrispy | IDK why it exists |
| 17:29.14 | ExtraCrispy | Maybe for the app shortcuts? |
| 17:30.26 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: uh> |
| 17:30.28 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 17:30.46 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: https://paste.debian.net/plain/1050139 |
| 17:30.50 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: are you using other repos on top of devuan's? |
| 17:31.19 | fsmithred | KatolaZ, he hasn't gotten to devuan yet |
| 17:31.49 | ExtraCrispy | ExtraCrispy: The repos should be added after installing sysvinit no? |
| 17:32.08 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: are you using other repos on top of debian's ones? |
| 17:32.22 | KatolaZ | (i.e., where did you get the qubes-agent packet?) |
| 17:33.36 | ExtraCrispy | Yes QubesOS has their own repos |
| 17:33.53 | ExtraCrispy | Which are essential |
| 17:34.04 | KatolaZ | oh then good luck |
| 17:34.36 | KatolaZ | it looks like those packages have hard deps on systemd |
| 17:34.51 | ExtraCrispy | Yeah |
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| 17:42.59 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: Thanks |
| 17:43.10 | KatolaZ | sorry ExtraCrispy |
| 17:43.44 | KatolaZ | but why don't you risk an actual install on real hardware? (or on a qemu VM?) |
| 17:44.20 | ExtraCrispy | I am not changing QubesOS. |
| 17:44.38 | ExtraCrispy | Maybe i could make it work. |
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| 17:45.07 | fsmithred | qemu or virtualbox or usb (live or installed) |
| 17:45.36 | fsmithred | or repackage the qubes stuff and hack the deps |
| 17:45.58 | fsmithred | but the fact that you might be able to install it like that, it still might not work |
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| 17:46.15 | ExtraCrispy | Qemu and VBox is not an option. |
| 17:46.24 | ExtraCrispy | Maybe on my laptop. |
| 17:47.03 | ExtraCrispy | fsmithred: The problem is within those packages |
| 17:47.53 | ExtraCrispy | BTW is wicd migration mandatory? |
| 17:55.57 | fsmithred | wicd is default if you install task-whatever-desktop for some of the desktops |
| 17:56.20 | fsmithred | but if you build stuff up manually, you can have pretty much whatever you want |
| 18:01.16 | ExtraCrispy | I am building |
| 18:01.31 | ExtraCrispy | Damn sysvinit |
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| 18:14.55 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: fsmithred I got another idea. |
| 18:15.21 | ExtraCrispy | I will pin them with hold as manually installed so they wont get removed |
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| 18:24.05 | KatolaZ | ExtraCrispy: if they need systemd, this is probably not gonna work |
| 18:28.01 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: Yah |
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| 18:31.27 | ExtraCrispy | KatolaZ: Well idk how to bypass that ard-deps thing |
| 18:31.36 | ExtraCrispy | hard-deps |
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| 20:20.52 | helios21 | waves "Just like to say hi. I had contact one mailinglist with some of you. Just see my whois in case you like to know who is speaking here :)" |
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| 20:23.15 | KatolaZ | hi helios21 |
| 20:23.18 | KatolaZ | welcome |
| 20:23.58 | helios21 | Hi KatolaZ. Thank you a lot for your work on sysvinit. |
| 20:34.54 | golinux | helios21: Nice to see you here. Yeah, KatolaZ is a wizard . . . |
| 20:37.07 | helios21 | golinux: :) |
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| 21:24.50 | eyalroz | Is there an apt repository for newer versions of GCC/g++ for installation on ASCII? Or should I somehow install from experimental? |
| 21:26.19 | eyalroz | Something like Ubuntu's "ppa:ubuntu-toolchain-r" ? |
| 21:27.08 | golinux | Try backports |
| 21:27.54 | golinux | You can search here: pkginfo.devuan.org |
| 21:28.02 | golinux | (I didn't) |
| 21:47.47 | eyalroz | golinux: gcc-7 is available in beowulf and ceres, but I don't see any "backports" |
| 21:48.24 | eyalroz | golinux: Oh, and my sources.list already has ascii-backports |
| 21:58.32 | KatolaZ | eyalroz: do you need gcc-7? |
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| 22:01.26 | gnarface | it's not in backports and i'm skeptical that it can be successfully backported in the sense that it would generate binaries that don't crash randomly |
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| 22:01.43 | gnarface | but it will work fine in a ceres chroot |
| 22:02.14 | gnarface | so you could just deboostrap ceres into a chroot |
| 22:02.18 | gnarface | then build in that |
| 22:02.40 | eyalroz | gnarface: I don't want it to replace gcc-6 as the system compiler, I just want it installed alongside it |
| 22:03.07 | gnarface | eyalroz: that's not the part that's holding it back |
| 22:03.15 | eyalroz | to be honest, I feel it's easier to just build it from sources into /opt/gcc-x.y.z than to debootstrap things |
| 22:03.22 | eyalroz | (which I've not done before) |
| 22:04.07 | gnarface | i've attempted both approaches and i've directed you to the one that was easier |
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| 22:04.15 | eyalroz | KatolaZ: I need something which supports most of c++17 |
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| 22:04.59 | eyalroz | gnarface: I didn't mean to sound ungrateful, I'm sorry. |
| 22:05.57 | gnarface | eyalroz: it's ok, i know it may not be clear just how much more effort backporting will be, because it seems like you'd download a lot less. but you can't just get away with building one package for something like this. you'll have to recursively backport all it's dependencies too, by hand. *that's* where the real drama comes in - many of these will directly conflict with ascii in various ways |
| 22:06.44 | KatolaZ | eyalroz: you could use clang also |
| 22:06.50 | gnarface | i've got gcc 5 6 and 7 all installed concurrently on ceres, in multiple architectures, but i'm certain there's a good reason gcc7 isn't already in backports |
| 22:07.02 | KatolaZ | 4.0 is in ascii |
| 22:07.10 | KatolaZ | and supports the whole C++17 |
| 22:07.27 | gnarface | i actually have several 4.x versions too, i just noticed |
| 22:07.31 | KatolaZ | you also have clang 5 and clang 6 in backports |
| 22:07.38 | KatolaZ | ascii-backports |
| 22:08.42 | eyalroz | KatolaZ: Hmm, maybe |
| 22:08.55 | eyalroz | gnarface: I know what libs I need, it's ok. |
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| 22:50.46 | gnarface | so, i've been having a problem with ascii on one machine for a while. it started a month or two ago after an update i think. i thought i had it locked down but it's still happening intermittently. the ethernet device basically just self disables if i don't attach the ssh session quick enough after boot (during boot?) |
| 22:50.53 | gnarface | anyone seen this behavior lately? |
| 22:51.20 | gnarface | the machine isn't going to sleep, and disabling the powermanagement flag on the ethernet module doesn't seem to do anything |
| 22:52.10 | gnarface | if i log in to the machine locally the ethernet device looks up, has a valid route, just can't actually send traffic |
| 22:52.18 | gnarface | but if i down it then up it again, it starts working |
| 22:52.32 | gnarface | the ip address is statically configured |
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| 23:00.29 | fsmithred | gnarface, is "no" a helpful answer? I ssh into ascii every day, but usually the remote host is using wicd or else dhcp in /etc/network/interfaces |
| 23:01.57 | gnarface | it's more helpful than no answer |
| 23:02.35 | gnarface | i thought it might be a driver "fix" exposing a glitch in link detection or something, because it seemed to sometimes fix it if i simply hotplug the cable from one end or the other (not always even the same end) but i couldn't reliably reproduce that |
| 23:02.55 | gnarface | and it happened with two different switches |
| 23:03.04 | gnarface | but i guess it could still be the ethernet cable itself... |
| 23:03.16 | gnarface | i heard they can go bad |
| 23:03.30 | fsmithred | yeah, they can get loose in the connector, too |
| 23:03.42 | fsmithred | less that 1mm is enough |
| 23:03.50 | gnarface | well the thing is i still have link lights when this is happening |
| 23:04.01 | fsmithred | I have some with broken plastic clip |
| 23:04.01 | gnarface | the switch and the ethernet jack's lights both say an active link is detected |
| 23:04.05 | fsmithred | ok |
| 23:04.07 | gnarface | the driver says it's up and a link is present |
| 23:04.11 | gnarface | and there is a valid route |
| 23:04.18 | gnarface | it just can't use it |
| 23:04.55 | gnarface | so if it's something wrong with the cable, it's something that's wrong at an even more subtle level than the status lights can themselves detect |
| 23:06.10 | gnarface | i guess i'm not ruling that out yet, since nobody else is seeing this |
| 23:06.16 | gnarface | it's the e1000 ethernet driver |
| 23:06.31 | fsmithred | that sounds familiar |
| 23:06.45 | fsmithred | but maybe you talked about it some other time |
| 23:07.10 | fsmithred | have you tried changing allow hotplug to auto? |
| 23:07.50 | gnarface | it's the same machine i had extensive problems getting to stream reliably, but it's been well behaved after they fixed an unrelated performance regression in the h264 encoder that only affected alsa recording |
| 23:08.05 | gnarface | allow ethernet hotplug to auto? |
| 23:08.06 | gnarface | hmmm... |
| 23:08.18 | gnarface | yea actually |
| 23:08.22 | gnarface | but not to fix this |
| 23:08.23 | fsmithred | yeah, that seems to get in the way for a lot of people, but usually with boot times |
| 23:09.07 | gnarface | no, when they started doing that i just immediately manually reverting it everywhere i caught it. this system hasn't been tested with allow-hotplug. it's always been set to auto |
| 23:09.31 | gnarface | but that would have been my first suspicion too, right after dhcp |
| 23:09.41 | fsmithred | try allow-hotplug :P |
| 23:09.46 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 23:09.54 | gnarface | heh, interesting notion i suppose |
| 23:10.20 | gnarface | at least that would probably make replugging the ethernet cable work every time |
| 23:10.28 | fsmithred | yeah, it might |
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