| 00:03.32 | *** join/#devuan alexandros_c (~alexandro@unaffiliated/alexandros-c/x-1684531) |
| 01:09.36 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@208.53.50.136) |
| 01:09.36 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | **You need to auth to nickserv to talk!** | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
| 01:09.36 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 01:09.50 | *** join/#devuan saptech (~saptech@unaffiliated/saptech) |
| 01:11.35 | *** join/#devuan xes (~xes@unaffiliated/xes) |
| 01:34.29 | *** join/#devuan rafalcpp_ (~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl) |
| 01:43.27 | *** join/#devuan fleeky (~fleeky@75-101-60-65.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com) |
| 02:21.14 | *** join/#devuan nckx (~nckx@tobias.gr) |
| 02:22.17 | *** join/#devuan blitzed (~blitzed@196.245.9.3) |
| 02:30.19 | *** join/#devuan uidzer0 (~uidzer0@168.235.83.215) |
| 03:20.22 | *** join/#devuan uidzer0 (~uidzer0@168.235.83.215) |
| 05:06.51 | *** join/#devuan coagen (~coagen@unaffiliated/coagen) |
| 06:00.17 | *** join/#devuan antenagora (~antenagor@147.162.137.245) |
| 06:33.05 | *** join/#devuan Travankor (~Travankor@82.102.22.59) |
| 06:33.20 | *** part/#devuan Travankor (~Travankor@82.102.22.59) |
| 06:39.29 | *** join/#devuan jonadab (~weirdidio@cpe-75-185-35-110.columbus.res.rr.com) |
| 06:43.25 | *** join/#devuan HalfWord (~halfword@unaffiliated/halfword) |
| 07:04.56 | *** join/#devuan clemens3 (~clemens@mx.eniso-partners.com) |
| 07:30.49 | *** join/#devuan Besnik_b (~Besnik@ppp-94-66-221-215.home.otenet.gr) |
| 07:55.04 | *** join/#devuan allohol (Elite21154@unaffiliated/allohol) |
| 07:55.04 | *** join/#devuan allohol (Elite21154@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-tthnkyeefutczcru) |
| 07:58.38 | *** join/#devuan nighty- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) |
| 08:04.25 | *** join/#devuan athidhep (~sb35@S0106602ad06acd48.vc.shawcable.net) |
| 08:04.25 | *** join/#devuan athidhep (~sb35@unaffiliated/athidhep) |
| 08:09.21 | *** join/#devuan icebit_ (~marco@host183-177-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 08:45.12 | *** join/#devuan antenagora (~antenagor@147.162.137.245) |
| 09:21.14 | *** join/#devuan systemdlete (~systemdle@c-73-90-84-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 09:43.18 | *** join/#devuan justinsm (~justinsm@82-69-63-196.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 09:48.07 | *** join/#devuan Kohlrabi (~kohlrabi@kohlio.de) |
| 09:54.44 | *** join/#devuan Human_G33k (~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8) |
| 10:29.33 | *** join/#devuan jonadab (~weirdidio@cpe-174-105-96-42.columbus.res.rr.com) |
| 10:39.35 | *** join/#devuan hufdufhv (~Thunderbi@123.234.229.29) |
| 10:48.23 | *** join/#devuan Maarten_ (~smuxi@ip565f843d.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 10:53.11 | *** join/#devuan amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-15-152.bras1.adl4.internode.on.net) |
| 11:01.34 | *** join/#devuan unixman_home (~unixman2@56-180-152-216.mtaonline.net) |
| 11:01.34 | *** join/#devuan unixman_home (~unixman2@unaffiliated/eracc) |
| 11:16.42 | *** join/#devuan amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-15-152.bras1.adl4.internode.on.net) |
| 11:19.32 | *** join/#devuan terra (d4aebd34@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.174.189.52) |
| 11:20.09 | terra | guys, is 4.9.0-6 latest available kernel? |
| 11:23.22 | *** join/#devuan reetspetit (~john@194.149.220.77) |
| 11:28.05 | furrymcgee | https://packages.qa.debian.org/l/linux.html |
| 11:28.40 | *** join/#devuan reetspetit (~john@239.red-80-59-216.staticip.rima-tde.net) |
| 11:32.40 | *** join/#devuan romo (~romo@unaffiliated/romo) |
| 11:37.48 | FlibberTGibbet | had some pausing while 'trying to connect to libvirt' or somesuch on my ascii laptop. this was after uninstalling/purging anything connected to libvirt. ended up backing up/removing libvirt-guests and virtlogd from /etc/init.d and removing links from /etc/rc<n>.d, now all fine. is that normal or did i miss something obvious when uninstalling those packages? |
| 11:38.07 | FlibberTGibbet | should mention that the pausing was during shutdown |
| 11:38.58 | FlibberTGibbet | so the service appeared to be up although it can't have been doing much as *libvirt* was uninstalled :) |
| 11:44.31 | *** join/#devuan nighty- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) |
| 11:50.03 | *** join/#devuan Kohlrabi (~kohlrabi@kohlio.de) |
| 11:52.29 | *** join/#devuan Human_G33k (~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8) |
| 12:04.10 | *** join/#devuan rleigh (~rleigh@182.155.187.81.in-addr.arpa) |
| 12:04.10 | *** join/#devuan rleigh (~rleigh@unaffiliated/rleigh) |
| 12:09.18 | amarsh04 | terra, are you including unstable in your /etc/apt/sources.list ? |
| 12:09.44 | amarsh04 | e.g. |
| 12:09.44 | *** join/#devuan pilgrimm (~user@50-35-187-200.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net) |
| 12:09.46 | amarsh04 | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf main contrib non-free |
| 12:09.47 | amarsh04 | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged unstable main contrib non-free |
| 12:19.27 | *** join/#devuan pekman (~pekman@unaffiliated/pekman) |
| 12:29.05 | man_in_shack | flails |
| 12:29.14 | man_in_shack | <terra> guys, is 4.9.0-6 latest available kernel? << not if you roll your own (: |
| 12:30.45 | man_in_shack | so i have a kernel crash dump and i have no idea what to do with it :D |
| 12:31.18 | man_in_shack | also fun fact: sata ssds are CRAPLOADS faster than usb flash drives :P |
| 12:38.07 | unixman_home | Probably much better iops on the SATA BUS is the reason. While USB is useful generally it is unlikely to give better results than a dedicated BUS to a specific task. |
| 12:38.26 | man_in_shack | also the internels of the drive |
| 12:38.54 | unixman_home | s/the reason/part of the reason/ <- should have been. |
| 12:38.56 | man_in_shack | flash memory is slow, dedicated ssds get around that by doing a funky raid-0 like thing internally |
| 12:39.39 | man_in_shack | means MUCH better sustained i/o |
| 12:39.46 | unixman_home | nods |
| 12:40.25 | man_in_shack | right now i'm considering downgrading this kernel to something roughly as old as the cpu :P |
| 12:40.52 | man_in_shack | cpu is 10 years old |
| 12:41.12 | man_in_shack | see if this memory leak or whatever it is has appeared in the code since then |
| 12:52.10 | man_in_shack | and now shitdows has also exploded. "unexpected_kernel_mode_trap" in dxgmms2.sys |
| 12:53.39 | man_in_shack | hahahaha @ suggested solutions for it. "1. reinstall graphics driver; 2. disable hardware acceleration" |
| 12:54.49 | man_in_shack | so guessing it's a directx graphics memory management thingy |
| 12:58.17 | nemo | man_in_shack: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NARBPI7/ these suckers are about 200MB/s - compared to the 500MB/s for your SATA |
| 12:58.31 | nemo | man_in_shack: fast enough for me to use it as a portable linux to boot up random machines ⺠|
| 12:58.57 | nemo | long long ago I used mini-CDs for that, spent sooo long tweaking the ISO so that it autoloaded my standard home from my remote machine. |
| 12:58.57 | terra | amarsh04: I saw that 4.9.0-8 available then I just installed it. |
| 13:00.29 | koollman | nemo: are they really that fast ? |
| 13:00.38 | koollman | I've yet to find fast (or even decent) usb drives |
| 13:01.08 | nemo | koollman: https://lifehacker.com/five-best-usb-3-0-flash-drives-1733112413 found a review - won't attest to it, but these things are pretty nice |
| 13:01.21 | nemo | koollman: my work computer is old and crappy and doesn't even have USB3 or I'd do a speed test for you |
| 13:01.25 | man_in_shack | nemo: "up to" |
| 13:01.40 | nemo | hm? where? |
| 13:01.41 | man_in_shack | it's 200MB/s best case scenario |
| 13:01.51 | man_in_shack | anyway |
| 13:01.53 | nemo | "The SanDisk Extreme USB 3.0 64GB flash drive (shown above) boasts transfer speeds of 245 MB/s read and 190 MB/s write" |
| 13:02.00 | nemo | lemme find another review |
| 13:02.07 | man_in_shack | not that i care :P |
| 13:02.33 | man_in_shack | this headless box is booting off usb storage anyway :P |
| 13:03.00 | man_in_shack | just chucked the ssd in for the space for the vmcore dump |
| 13:03.18 | *** join/#devuan Acacia (~Acacia@unaffiliated/acacia) |
| 13:03.26 | koollman | nemo: yeah I mean it boasts it. But did they test ? :) |
| 13:03.33 | man_in_shack | ^ |
| 13:03.49 | nemo | https://usb.userbenchmark.com/Compare/SanDisk-Extreme-Pro-USB-30-128GB-vs-SanDisk-Cruzer-Blade-16GB/m7603vsm1349 |
| 13:03.51 | man_in_shack | it's probably linear reads |
| 13:04.00 | man_in_shack | not random i/o |
| 13:04.09 | nemo | yeah. random is much worse as noted there |
| 13:04.17 | nemo | man_in_shack: but aren't large transfers usually, well, linear? |
| 13:04.23 | nemo | image flash |
| 13:04.32 | nemo | downloading packages |
| 13:04.38 | man_in_shack | yah |
| 13:04.43 | nemo | SSD probably has similar issues |
| 13:04.47 | man_in_shack | unless you put a filesystem on it ;) |
| 13:04.52 | nemo | although probablym uch larger buffers |
| 13:05.16 | nemo | man_in_shack: sure. but again, if you're writing small files, 12MB/s is still blazing fast |
| 13:05.20 | man_in_shack | ssds mitigate the issue of random i/o by doing this funky multi-chip management stuff |
| 13:05.25 | nemo | if you're writing large images or movies, you're back to the linear again |
| 13:05.36 | nemo | anyway. seems to work well for me |
| 13:05.38 | man_in_shack | ANYWAY |
| 13:05.39 | nemo | and relatively cheap |
| 13:05.41 | man_in_shack | point is |
| 13:05.45 | nemo | aaaaand much easier to plug into machines ⺠|
| 13:06.02 | man_in_shack | $40 120GB ssd did a 5GB memory dump in a minute or two |
| 13:06.14 | man_in_shack | usb key, many more minutes |
| 13:06.23 | nemo | sure. was just noting the USB key you use, matters a lot |
| 13:06.32 | man_in_shack | though that would have been the slowass patriot key |
| 13:10.50 | *** join/#devuan icebit_ (~marco@host183-177-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 13:19.53 | *** join/#devuan Achylles (~Achylles@2804:431:d725:9ad3:f9d0:3ace:ee8:92ac) |
| 13:22.07 | Kohlrabi | Does reportbug always submit bugs to Debian bugtracker, i.e. devuan doesn't have one for its own custom packages? |
| 13:25.34 | fsmithred | Kohlrabi, bugs.devuan.org |
| 13:28.40 | fsmithred | use reportbug to create the email and send it to submit@bugs.devuan.org |
| 13:38.29 | *** join/#devuan Psud0nym (~Thunderbi@c-73-184-158-200.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 13:42.38 | *** join/#devuan _0bitcount (~Big_Byte@90.162.105.206) |
| 13:45.29 | Kohlrabi | fsmithred: OK, thanks |
| 13:46.52 | Kohlrabi | fsmithred: I guess I can set that in ~/.reportbugrc to submit submit@bugs.devuan.org, right? |
| 13:47.14 | fsmithred | I don't know. I compose my reports manually. |
| 13:47.50 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: yes, you can |
| 13:49.13 | Kohlrabi | good. |
| 13:49.51 | Kohlrabi | Are bugs forwarded to debian bugtracker iff the package is taken drietcly from them? |
| 13:49.55 | Kohlrabi | directly* |
| 13:49.58 | KatolaZ | not automatically |
| 13:50.14 | KatolaZ | so if the package comes from Debian, it's better to file the bug upstream |
| 13:50.17 | KatolaZ | (to Debian) |
| 13:50.20 | Kohlrabi | Yep, understood |
| 13:50.23 | Kohlrabi | Have done so in the past |
| 13:50.25 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: which package is that? |
| 13:50.27 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 13:50.32 | Kohlrabi | In general |
| 13:50.39 | KatolaZ | shout if you need more info/help |
| 13:50.43 | Kohlrabi | specically I had a problem with mate-desktop-environment |
| 13:50.56 | Kohlrabi | in debian buster it's currently not installable with sysvinit-core |
| 13:51.08 | Kohlrabi | That's the reason why I switched to devuan, actually |
| 13:51.38 | Kohlrabi | systemd-shit creeping into my desktop environment of choice by some wird backdoor |
| 13:51.45 | Kohlrabi | weird* |
| 13:55.17 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: mate-desktop can be installed by using elogind |
| 13:55.25 | KatolaZ | they have a hard dep on libpam-systemd |
| 13:55.36 | nemo | it's supposedly an error right? |
| 13:55.37 | Kohlrabi | ooh |
| 13:55.38 | KatolaZ | elogind Provides: libpam-systemd |
| 13:55.42 | nemo | mate folks said it wasn't actually necessary? |
| 13:55.49 | Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: Thanks, too late, though :) |
| 13:55.55 | KatolaZ | but elogind is not available in Debian |
| 13:55.58 | Kohlrabi | I already switched and I'm happy so far |
| 13:56.01 | Kohlrabi | Ah, OK |
| 13:56.11 | KatolaZ | and in Devuan the version for Beowulf (buster) is not available yet |
| 13:56.25 | KatolaZ | you could use the version available in ascii |
| 13:56.33 | KatolaZ | nemo: nothing is necessary |
| 13:56.35 | nemo | going to be getting a pinebook in a couple of weeks, would love to install devuan on it, but the devuan arm folks are not being very encouraging. |
| 13:56.42 | KatolaZ | unless you want automagic everywhere |
| 13:56.54 | KatolaZ | (mounting, unmounting, etc.) |
| 13:56.55 | nemo | so gonna stick with their ubuntu xenial image for a bit |
| 13:57.10 | KatolaZ | nemo: what do you mean? |
| 13:57.31 | Kohlrabi | KatolaZ: There is nothing like https://packages.debian.org for devuan yet, right? |
| 13:57.38 | nemo | KatolaZ: gnarface who hangs out here was saying support for the hardware in debian was not great |
| 13:57.39 | KatolaZ | pkginfo.devuan.org |
| 13:57.39 | Kohlrabi | (or ever) |
| 13:57.50 | nemo | KatolaZ: GPU is most essential, but also peripherals |
| 13:57.52 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: it's a simplified version though |
| 13:57.56 | Kohlrabi | ah, great |
| 13:58.00 | KatolaZ | we are working on it |
| 13:58.10 | KatolaZ | (help is always welcome) |
| 13:58.34 | Kohlrabi | to be honest, ideally Debian folks wake up and this schism wouldn't be necessary |
| 13:58.52 | Kohlrabi | So the doubling of the effort |
| 13:59.08 | Kohlrabi | Isn't the tooling which does packages.debian open source? |
| 13:59.12 | *** join/#devuan Akuli (~akuli@mobile-access-5d6ada-109.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 14:01.12 | *** join/#devuan Kohlrabi (~kohlrabi@kohlio.de) |
| 14:04.51 | nemo | Kohlrabi: https://popcon.debian.org/stat/vendors.png devuan is at least as popular as raspbian. |
| 14:05.14 | nemo | Kohlrabi: although some distros are optout instead of optin on popcon - no idea WRT the standard raspbian images. |
| 14:05.24 | nemo | but that's definitely the case for Wazo - they said they were going to fix it though |
| 14:05.53 | nemo | Kohlrabi: unfortunately compared to debian itself it's still small fry. and debian is dwarfed by ubuntu |
| 14:06.03 | nemo | so hoping for support of both is probably rather unlikely |
| 14:07.18 | Kohlrabi | I just think Debian folks should make all (relevant?) inits first class citizens again |
| 14:07.27 | Kohlrabi | and just drop packages which break init freedom |
| 14:07.33 | Kohlrabi | bye bye GNOME |
| 14:07.41 | nemo | heh |
| 14:08.04 | Kohlrabi | I think people should be able to install systemd if they want to, but don't constantly breka my shit with your feature creep |
| 14:08.10 | Kohlrabi | break* |
| 14:08.52 | nemo | hmmm |
| 14:08.53 | nemo | http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_an_Ubuntu_Xenial_installation |
| 14:08.54 | *** join/#devuan Achylles (~Achylles@2804:431:d725:cef1:7858:bb4:fded:2041) |
| 14:08.59 | nemo | I wonder if I could do that on pine64's devuan |
| 14:09.00 | nemo | er |
| 14:09.02 | nemo | *ubuntu |
| 14:09.05 | nemo | guess I'll find out |
| 14:09.27 | Kohlrabi | :] |
| 14:10.22 | MinceR | i think that ship has sailed |
| 14:13.13 | nemo | MinceR: mostly all I hope for is that the anti-systemd folks have enough of a voice that the overall linux ecosystem will be forced to continue to support them |
| 14:13.31 | nemo | MinceR: and that it won't end up being one all-consuming cancer with tentacles in every aspect of the system's function |
| 14:16.40 | terra | anyone using an older version of a gtk2 chromium? |
| 14:17.06 | MinceR | i wonder if there even will be a "linux ecosystem" once gkh is done with it |
| 14:17.17 | terra | :) |
| 14:17.28 | terra | fltk rules |
| 14:18.26 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: complaining about that seems useless |
| 14:18.42 | KatolaZ | Debian has gone with systemd |
| 14:18.52 | Kohlrabi | as default init, yes |
| 14:19.05 | Kohlrabi | Doesn't mean packages shouldn't be able to run without it |
| 14:19.10 | Kohlrabi | I realize it's too late |
| 14:19.18 | KatolaZ | nemo: that statistics is not relevant |
| 14:19.26 | KatolaZ | nemo: please look at popcon.devuan.org |
| 14:19.27 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 14:19.29 | Kohlrabi | Debian leaders should have made it mandatory for packages to work in both inits |
| 14:19.34 | Kohlrabi | and if not, drop them |
| 14:19.40 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: :) |
| 14:19.50 | KatolaZ | a Debian leader (Ian Jackson) tried to do that |
| 14:19.56 | KatolaZ | with the GR in late 2014 |
| 14:19.56 | Kohlrabi | Yep |
| 14:19.59 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 14:20.06 | Kohlrabi | *sigh* |
| 14:20.20 | Kohlrabi | More division is always bad, while people should stick together |
| 14:20.25 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: about the tooling, yes, (most of) the tools used byu Debian are free and available |
| 14:20.40 | KatolaZ | the main problem is that the are invariably tied up to the Debian way of doing things |
| 14:20.54 | KatolaZ | and most of them are quite hard to adapt/modify for other cases |
| 14:21.03 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: yes, division is bad |
| 14:21.27 | KatolaZ | but the alternative was to have a system where you cannot avoid to have systemd at install time |
| 14:21.34 | Kohlrabi | Yep |
| 14:21.43 | Kohlrabi | Or use....Slackware *shudder* |
| 14:21.46 | KatolaZ | (and in which having some stuff working without systemd is impossible) |
| 14:21.49 | KatolaZ | yes |
| 14:21.51 | KatolaZ | sure |
| 14:22.10 | Kohlrabi | I applaud your efforts |
| 14:22.58 | Kohlrabi | I fear evil forces abound, with the ousting of Linus from the kernel, the ousting of Guido etc. |
| 14:23.14 | Kohlrabi | Interesting times |
| 14:23.15 | nemo | Kohlrabi: gentoo still supports both officially |
| 14:23.38 | Kohlrabi | nemo: I'm 35 already, I don't have enough time for gentoo. |
| 14:23.48 | Kohlrabi | :P |
| 14:25.07 | KatolaZ | Kohlrabi: all times are interesting ones, if you live them fully ;) |
| 14:26.38 | nemo | Kohlrabi: heh. I still have a fair # of gentoo machines. they aren't *that* high maintenance |
| 14:26.47 | nemo | the one I'm on right now actually |
| 14:27.10 | nemo | anyway. a package mask... https://m8y.org/tmp/package_mask.txt |
| 14:27.30 | nemo | that's the far more aggressive no-poettering one |
| 14:28.03 | Kohlrabi | nemo: I was wondering, can you use bluetooth playback hardware without PA |
| 14:28.08 | Kohlrabi | I didn't dive into it, yet |
| 14:28.13 | Kohlrabi | PA "just works" for now |
| 14:28.22 | Kohlrabi | But I'd like to use pure ALSA |
| 14:28.34 | Kohlrabi | if I disable PA, the mixer in MATE desktop fails |
| 14:29.08 | nemo | I don't bother with that aggressiveness on devuan frankly |
| 14:29.14 | nemo | too much trouble |
| 14:29.29 | nemo | I also don't have any bluetooth playback anywhere except on my phone though |
| 14:30.35 | Kohlrabi | I have a bluetooth headset which desyncs in De[bv][iu]an with PA. |
| 14:30.43 | Kohlrabi | Doesn't do so on a Windows machine I tried |
| 14:30.51 | Kohlrabi | So watching videos is impossible |
| 14:31.00 | Kohlrabi | :\ |
| 14:31.43 | *** join/#devuan furrywolf (~furrywolf@172.58.35.75) |
| 14:32.19 | nemo | interesting. synchronising bluetooth is kinda tricky |
| 14:32.26 | nemo | I've never had any luck with it on my phone |
| 14:32.30 | Kohlrabi | indeed |
| 14:32.33 | nemo | always had to manually adjust audio track settings in vlc |
| 14:32.40 | Kohlrabi | I played around with the settings, to no avail |
| 14:32.42 | nemo | wonder how windows does it - maybe database of bluetooth models? |
| 14:32.50 | Kohlrabi | Dunno |
| 14:32.54 | *** join/#devuan g4570n (~g4570n@unaffiliated/g4570n) |
| 14:32.57 | Kohlrabi | Windows audio seems to just work flawlessly |
| 14:33.03 | Kohlrabi | In most regards |
| 14:33.04 | nemo | well. that's what old skool headpohones are for |
| 14:33.30 | nemo | Kohlrabi: well, manufactures tend to work in concert with windows since they have a huge incentive to do so |
| 14:33.35 | Kohlrabi | indeed |
| 14:34.32 | nemo | Kohlrabi: there was a little play at my kid's preschool and the mother running performance had the bright idea of using a portable bluetooth speaker she'd bought for her iphone as the sound system |
| 14:34.45 | nemo | Kohlrabi: only... I'm sure she'd only ever used it with like music... |
| 14:35.00 | Kohlrabi | oh dear |
| 14:35.01 | nemo | the mic was several seconds out of sync with the speaker causing horrendous feedback |
| 14:35.21 | nemo | well. maybe just a second out of sync, but still plenty for all kinds of feedback effects |
| 14:35.43 | nemo | had no idea what the kid was saying. he might as well have been shouting his lines into a cement mixer |
| 14:36.01 | nemo | gee... if only iphones still had audio jacks.. |
| 14:36.05 | Kohlrabi | :} |
| 14:36.39 | Kohlrabi | Oldschool audio with long cables everywhere has its benefits |
| 14:37.02 | Kohlrabi | These BT headphones are noise cancelling though, quite nice for the office |
| 14:37.13 | Kohlrabi | (though there are only 2 more people in here) |
| 14:37.39 | furrywolf | the general rule for live sound reinforcement is that no digital hardware not explicitly intended for live sound reinforcement be anywhere in the signal path... |
| 14:38.12 | furrywolf | and this includes PCs, something many DJs and other ruiners-of-audio have a hard time understanding. |
| 14:38.23 | nemo | eh... the big clunky old headphones work almost as well - saw an interesting thing one dude did with high quality earmuffs and a cheapo bluetooth headset tho ⺠|
| 14:38.57 | nemo | think it was on HN a week or so back |
| 14:40.38 | nemo | https://www.instructables.com/id/Hearing-ProtectionBluetooth-in-Disguise/ was something like this I guess |
| 14:40.49 | nemo | bluetooth obv but just for playing audio that's fine |
| 14:41.10 | nemo | using an old earbud with a long cable would probably make the project even more trivial |
| 14:41.30 | nemo | heck could probably just buy earmuffs and slip an earbud inside it |
| 14:42.11 | furrywolf | typical computer audio works by recording a buffer, processing that buffer, then outputting the buffer, introducing unacceptable delays. real-time digital audio hardware works on individual samples instead of buffers, running it through DSP chips. you _can_ get typical PC hardware down to semi-acceptable delays with specialized software that uses teeny tiny buffers and a real-time kernel, but... let's just say you don't see PCs as part of actual sound |
| 14:42.38 | Kohlrabi | live reproduction |
| 14:44.50 | nemo | that buffer thing is why I refuse to believe my coworker who is convinced apple will solve the BT lag problems |
| 14:45.46 | nemo | every BT headset I've tried has *either* had lag that you have to handle in playback/recording or a buffer that's down a "less noticeable" like ¼ second or something... and with stuttering |
| 14:45.53 | koollman | furrywolf: well, it depends if you can manage lag or not |
| 14:46.30 | nemo | I guess the issue is just that apple clearly does not have a database of every single cheapo BT device people are going to pair with their iphone. once they have that fixed... |
| 14:46.37 | nemo | or maybe they'll just support blessed apple peripherals |
| 14:47.03 | koollman | furrywolf: for many DJ setup ... it doesn't matter much, they aren't treating external sound, they're producing it. they can have seconds of lag as long as it's all sync to what they are working with/on |
| 14:47.35 | furrywolf | brb |
| 14:47.49 | koollman | (all your other points are absolutely correct. It's what makes sound-processing for some VR experiences kind of hard :) ) |
| 14:51.47 | *** join/#devuan Kruppt (~Kruppt@50.111.36.7) |
| 15:08.29 | *** join/#devuan jack_rabbit_ (~jack_rabb@192-241-55-66.ip.ctc.biz) |
| 15:09.21 | *** join/#devuan rustyr (~rustyr@dslb-084-061-075-160.084.061.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 15:10.02 | *** join/#devuan rustyr (~rustyr@dslb-084-061-075-160.084.061.pools.vodafone-ip.de) |
| 15:10.17 | *** join/#devuan kassle (~kassle@angels.serv.krybrig.org) |
| 15:23.57 | furrywolf | koollman: I said sound reinforcement, not reproduction. :) |
| 15:24.01 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 15:29.39 | furrywolf | bbl, errands |
| 15:29.40 | man_in_shack | reinforces furrywolf |
| 15:29.46 | *** join/#devuan rsx (~rsx@ppp-46-244-253-133.dynamic.mnet-online.de) |
| 15:29.48 | man_in_shack | what's this about lagging audio? |
| 15:30.08 | furrywolf | becomes furrywolfverine |
| 15:30.21 | man_in_shack | <furrywolf> typical computer audio works by recording a buffer, processing that buffer, then outputting the buffer, introducing unacceptable delays. real-time digital audio hardware works on individual samples instead of buffers, running it through DSP chips. you _can_ get typical PC hardware down to semi-acceptable delays with specialized software that uses teeny tiny buffers and a real-time kernel, but... |
| 15:30.24 | man_in_shack | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:30.58 | man_in_shack | <nemo> I guess the issue is just that apple clearly does not have a database of every single cheapo BT device people are going to pair with their iphone. once they have that fixed... << wait, what? |
| 15:31.13 | furrywolf | ... delays with specialized software that uses teeny tiny buffers and a real-time kernel, but... let's just say you don't see PCs as part of actual sound reinforcement systems. :P |
| 15:31.18 | man_in_shack | bluetooth inherently has a delay |
| 15:31.27 | man_in_shack | agrees with furrywolf |
| 15:31.29 | furrywolf | the last two words matter! |
| 15:31.30 | furrywolf | lol |
| 15:31.32 | man_in_shack | did the 2nd line not appear? |
| 15:31.58 | man_in_shack | furrywolf: i do sound production/engineering shizzle |
| 15:32.45 | man_in_shack | even the sexiest of digital mixing desks introduce a few samples worth of delay into the system that you don't get with analogue equivalents |
| 15:32.47 | furrywolf | got a couple spare parametric EQs and an amp? I'm sick of fiddling with sliders, and my stack of dead amps is quite a bit larger than my stack of working amps... |
| 15:32.58 | man_in_shack | heh |
| 15:33.03 | man_in_shack | you don't want the amp i have |
| 15:33.41 | man_in_shack | and all my gear is in-the-box plugins. can't afford the REAL stuff |
| 15:34.02 | furrywolf | the last failure was my trusty yamaha p2100 lost a channel... |
| 15:34.21 | man_in_shack | even tried to sell my focusrite saffire pro 24. got a scarlet 2i2 to replace it with |
| 15:34.28 | furrywolf | before that my crown xti1000 started distorting both channels as well as only powering up half the time |
| 15:34.41 | furrywolf | then I have a pyle that is, indeed, a total pile... |
| 15:34.48 | man_in_shack | no bites on the saffire, so the other day i bought $45 worth of firewire controller to run it on the new desktop |
| 15:34.58 | furrywolf | a nady with one channel... |
| 15:35.21 | furrywolf | my stewart pa-1000 takes a full fucking minute to power up... |
| 15:35.32 | man_in_shack | if i can clear some space i got a couple of fostex studio monitors to set up |
| 15:35.49 | furrywolf | I'm happy with my monitors... a pair of JBL 4312s. :) |
| 15:35.54 | man_in_shack | nice |
| 15:35.56 | furrywolf | 2ft from me |
| 15:36.25 | man_in_shack | with 12in woofer drivers? |
| 15:36.34 | furrywolf | ... currently running off the stewart, because the yamaha I used to run them off of... grrrr. |
| 15:36.36 | furrywolf | yep |
| 15:36.47 | man_in_shack | man, 2ft from those would probably break my ears :P |
| 15:36.58 | furrywolf | you don't have to turn the volume all the way up, you know. :P |
| 15:37.09 | furrywolf | that's what the other six speakers in the room are for, anyway. :) |
| 15:37.13 | man_in_shack | hehe |
| 15:38.12 | furrywolf | I have the JBL 4312s on my desk, a pair of 14" 6-way sansuis flanking them, then behind me a pair of 16" 5-way sansuis, and a pair of 12" pioneers... I would have my JBL L100Ts on either side of the JBL 4312s, but they need refoaming. |
| 15:38.53 | man_in_shack | nice |
| 15:39.03 | man_in_shack | http://www.johncurtinhotel.com/specs.php << i mixed a gig at this place last week |
| 15:39.10 | man_in_shack | damn fine sounding pa there |
| 15:39.52 | nemo | man_in_shack: what I meant was, if you know what the delay *is* you can reduce some of the worst sins |
| 15:39.55 | man_in_shack | i think they've upgraded some of the stuff from that list. definitely the mics |
| 15:40.08 | man_in_shack | nemo: yeah, by not using bluetooth at all |
| 15:40.11 | nemo | heh |
| 15:40.12 | furrywolf | "Now taking bookings for all genres of music for every night of the week. " aka "we're desparate"? :P |
| 15:40.16 | nemo | man_in_shack: that's the more sensible approach sure |
| 15:40.38 | nemo | man_in_shack: I just was referring to my coworker's blind faith that apple would fix these problems with video playback and microphone feedback |
| 15:40.50 | man_in_shack | HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |
| 15:40.54 | man_in_shack | (: |
| 15:40.54 | nemo | man_in_shack: which could be... managed... with knowledge of just what each device's default delays were |
| 15:41.04 | man_in_shack | "default delays" |
| 15:41.06 | furrywolf | bluetooth also has quality issues, range issues,... |
| 15:41.09 | nemo | which is presumably what windows is doing in the case above |
| 15:41.10 | man_in_shack | ^ |
| 15:41.16 | nemo | furrywolf: sure absolutely |
| 15:41.31 | man_in_shack | it's gonna be some weird codecfoo |
| 15:41.31 | furrywolf | I'm using good old-fashioned analog FM at my shop/storage. |
| 15:41.33 | nemo | furrywolf: I was just trying to imagine what apple's end-game was after stripping the audio jack, besides "closing the analog hole" |
| 15:42.03 | man_in_shack | the end-game is to sell more accessories |
| 15:42.14 | *** join/#devuan Pali (~pali@Maemo/community/contributor/Pali) |
| 15:42.38 | nemo | 10:30 < Kohlrabi> I have a bluetooth headset which desyncs in De[bv][iu]an with PA. |
| 15:42.41 | nemo | 10:30 < Kohlrabi> Doesn't do so on a Windows machine I tried |
| 15:42.54 | nemo | man_in_shack: â WRT "default delays" I was trying to imagine how windows could be managing the trick above |
| 15:43.12 | man_in_shack | the "analogue hole" is not closed. the signal is still there, just on the lightning instead of a dedicated port |
| 15:43.15 | nemo | only thing I figure is maybe it was using the BT device IDs to automatically correct windows media player audio track lag |
| 15:43.26 | man_in_shack | nemo: probably a different bluetooth version |
| 15:43.32 | man_in_shack | 4.2 instead of 4.0 or something |
| 15:43.40 | nemo | oh. guess it depends what he means by desyncs |
| 15:43.41 | man_in_shack | driver support |
| 15:43.43 | nemo | I thought he meant track lag |
| 15:43.47 | nemo | Kohlrabi? |
| 15:43.52 | man_in_shack | could mean ALL the things |
| 15:44.03 | furrywolf | man_in_shack: and then there's my pile of fixing-needed classic hifi... two pioneer sx-828s, a sx-1010, a sansui quad, a biiig sansui, two kenwood l07ms, a marantz preamp, a marantz amp, a fisher amp, and about ten other things I'm forgetting what they are... |
| 15:44.11 | man_in_shack | maybe the a2dp codec in bluez is shit? |
| 15:44.29 | man_in_shack | furrywolf: fix ALL the things! |
| 15:44.42 | furrywolf | I have too many projects. :( |
| 15:44.53 | *** join/#devuan eady (~weirdidio@cgi.galion.lib.oh.us) |
| 15:45.13 | man_in_shack | i might have a look at getting dad's old b&o turntable and amp working again |
| 15:45.14 | furrywolf | current project is clearing space in my storage unit for my cnc router table, because it's under a tarp right now and the rainy season is coming... |
| 15:45.39 | man_in_shack | but otherwise, i'm really a studio/live guy. not into hifi gear |
| 15:46.39 | nemo | well. friend of mine insists entire BlueZ stack is useless crap - he ended up writing his own bluetooth communication when working on the Nielsen devices |
| 15:47.08 | nemo | but, yeah, haven't looked at it. just know he ranted about it a lot |
| 15:47.17 | man_in_shack | my music player for the car is a cheapass android phone connected by bluetooth, and that's just because 3.5mm is a bitch for interference/ground loop shit |
| 15:47.52 | *** join/#devuan lall- (~omg@2403:6200:88a0:3e47:dd82:3d44:c09:2104) |
| 15:48.11 | furrywolf | bbl, need to get an oil change on my van and run it through the car wash, get kerosene, and other errands. |
| 15:48.27 | man_in_shack | my old player just gave nasty clicking sounds if it was plugged into the car battery |
| 15:49.10 | man_in_shack | got this ground lift device for its 3.5mm jack and then the bastard worked |
| 15:49.32 | man_in_shack | it's like the ONE place where bluetooth audio isn't shit |
| 15:50.10 | man_in_shack | and having track prev/next buttons on the steering wheel is kinda nice ;P |
| 15:50.12 | man_in_shack | :P |
| 15:50.34 | man_in_shack | now, can i get devuan to run on it? :P |
| 15:51.49 | nemo | furrywolf: gas station down the road charges $20 if you provide your own oil (and optionally filter). I thought that was nice of them |
| 15:51.58 | nemo | in this area that's a damn cheap labour charge |
| 15:53.03 | *** join/#devuan divansantana (~divansant@156.0.193.126) |
| 15:57.43 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@2a01:e35:8a99:e90:1202:b5ff:fe91:e4ca) |
| 16:02.36 | *** part/#devuan lall- (~omg@2403:6200:88a0:3e47:dd82:3d44:c09:2104) |
| 16:05.50 | *** join/#devuan gnu_srs (~srs@148.63.102.92) |
| 16:10.49 | Kohlrabi | nemo: A/V desyncs with PA on Linux |
| 16:10.56 | Kohlrabi | Pretty much instantly |
| 16:11.33 | Kohlrabi | I dunno how Windows does the resync? |
| 16:11.57 | Kohlrabi | This works for youtube for example, with both Firefox and Blink based browsers |
| 16:13.28 | *** join/#devuan Human_G33k (~HumanG33k@62.147.242.8) |
| 16:16.10 | nemo | Kohlrabi: ttps://askubuntu.com/questions/145935/get-rid-of-0-5s-latency-when-playing-audio-over-bluetooth-with-a2dp perhaps? |
| 16:16.13 | nemo | er |
| 16:16.16 | nemo | https://askubuntu.com/questions/145935/get-rid-of-0-5s-latency-when-playing-audio-over-bluetooth-with-a2dp |
| 16:16.32 | nemo | Kohlrabi: I was poking around to see if pulseaudio had a way to specify delay per sink |
| 16:16.47 | nemo | no idea why this "reinit" thing is necessary, or even how it knows what the delay is |
| 16:16.50 | nemo | maybe it just guesses |
| 16:17.46 | nemo | Kohlrabi: so reinit seems to be a pa bug specific fix |
| 16:18.01 | nemo | Kohlrabi: but someone else in there mentions pactl set-port-latency-offset |
| 16:18.06 | nemo | which was what I was looking for |
| 16:18.16 | nemo | not that I really need either one |
| 16:18.56 | Kohlrabi | I tried several things to no avail |
| 16:19.06 | Kohlrabi | And it seems to be non-trvial indeed |
| 16:19.16 | Kohlrabi | But Windows makes it "just work". :( |
| 16:25.47 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 16:41.21 | nemo | Kohlrabi: the port latency wasn |
| 16:41.25 | nemo | 't sufficient? |
| 16:42.01 | nemo | Kohlrabi: I'm really inclined to think microsoft just has a better database of BT devices and their respective latencies, possibly submitted by manufacturers |
| 16:44.07 | Kohlrabi | I'm not sure it's latency, I think it's dynamic |
| 16:44.09 | *** join/#devuan pekman (~pekman@unaffiliated/pekman) |
| 16:44.15 | Kohlrabi | i.e. the delay changes during use |
| 16:44.31 | Kohlrabi | e.g. if you move too far away from the receiver the connection will break |
| 16:44.43 | Kohlrabi | PA fails to resync after that, Windows does it |
| 16:45.55 | *** join/#devuan Pr0metheus (~nezos@46-75-130.adsl.cyta.gr) |
| 16:53.57 | *** join/#devuan glasshouses (c76ff017@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.199.111.240.23) |
| 17:00.16 | *** join/#devuan IoFran2 (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 17:05.35 | *** join/#devuan Oldmoss (~Oldmoss@anon-62-166.vpn.ipredator.se) |
| 17:10.19 | Pr0metheus | anyone by chance using linux-libre kernel with eudev? I am trying to install eudev and I get the error: http://paste.debian.net/1048660/ |
| 17:19.48 | *** join/#devuan ephemer0l_ (~ephemer0l@pentoo/user/ephemer0l) |
| 17:21.29 | nemo | Kohlrabi: ohhh I thought you were refering to the audio/video track desync in like vlc |
| 17:21.44 | nemo | ok yeah that's totally different |
| 17:22.32 | nemo | Kohlrabi: https://launchpad.net/bt-autoconnect ? |
| 17:23.09 | nemo | Kohlrabi: was reading https://askubuntu.com/questions/8409/autoconnecting-bluetooth-devices |
| 17:30.16 | *** join/#devuan amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-15-152.bras1.adl4.internode.on.net) |
| 17:42.20 | *** join/#devuan kelsoo1 (~kelsoo@dragora/developer/kelsoo) |
| 17:42.34 | *** join/#devuan DeFender1031 (~DeFender1@46-116-91-210.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 17:43.25 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@37.162.4.15) |
| 17:44.05 | *** join/#devuan yae7nae4 (~oizei4ei@45.32.163.153) |
| 17:44.24 | *** part/#devuan tse (~tse@static.240.142.216.95.clients.your-server.de) |
| 17:56.47 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 18:04.27 | *** join/#devuan mmaglis (~user@p200300D2973DC401021A4BFFFE8AF11E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:06.54 | furrywolf | nemo: I go to the local drive-through place... $50 and they wash your windows, top off your washer fluid, etc etc. |
| 18:11.55 | Kohlrabi | nemo: thanks, that's not it, though |
| 18:12.01 | Kohlrabi | it stays paired |
| 18:12.09 | Kohlrabi | But it drops some "frames" |
| 18:12.13 | Kohlrabi | The audio that is |
| 18:12.17 | Kohlrabi | the video keeps running |
| 18:12.21 | *** join/#devuan gnarface (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 18:12.26 | Kohlrabi | Well no |
| 18:12.31 | Kohlrabi | It does not properly drop them indeed |
| 18:12.41 | Kohlrabi | Then it would be in sync :) |
| 18:33.58 | *** join/#devuan benharri (~benharri@lobsters/users/benharri) |
| 18:34.55 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 18:46.55 | nemo | Kohlrabi: oh. I'm sloooowly catching on ⺠|
| 18:47.25 | nemo | Kohlrabi: yeah, at that point, you're beyond my limited googling and knowledge of pulse - you should hassle their IRC channel. it's been quite helpful to me in the past |
| 18:55.55 | *** join/#devuan sigjen (~sig@205.201.49.66) |
| 19:01.55 | furrywolf | my suggestion for pulse is --purge. |
| 19:07.48 | furrywolf | bbl, time for work |
| 19:13.24 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 19:16.03 | *** join/#devuan AlexLikeRock (~AlexLikeR@unaffiliated/alexlikerock) |
| 19:16.11 | *** join/#devuan coagen (~coagen@unaffiliated/coagen) |
| 19:30.16 | *** join/#devuan IoFran2 (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 19:38.16 | *** join/#devuan _0bitcount (~Big_Byte@90.162.105.206) |
| 20:08.18 | *** join/#devuan _0bitcount (~Big_Byte@90.162.105.206) |
| 20:41.44 | *** part/#devuan mmaglis (~user@p200300D2973DC401021A4BFFFE8AF11E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:42.47 | *** join/#devuan Orys (~Orys@80.250.28.106) |
| 20:43.49 | *** join/#devuan tradar (~tradar@gateway/tor-sasl/tradar) |
| 20:46.56 | *** part/#devuan Orys (~Orys@80.250.28.106) |
| 21:11.34 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@37.162.4.15) |
| 21:15.43 | *** join/#devuan telst4r (~Jukka@fsf/member/telst4r) |
| 21:17.18 | *** part/#devuan Guest50545 (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:17.49 | *** join/#devuan gnarface (~gnarface@108-227-52-42.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:20.12 | *** join/#devuan ymasson (~ymasson@lfbn-1-8785-102.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 21:21.09 | *** join/#devuan wyatt8740 (~wyatt8740@184.17.239.71) |
| 21:35.43 | *** join/#devuan athidhep (~sb35@unaffiliated/athidhep) |
| 21:52.53 | *** join/#devuan IoFran (~Thunderbi@189.154.68.95) |
| 21:57.54 | *** join/#devuan alexandros_c (~alexandro@unaffiliated/alexandros-c/x-1684531) |
| 22:20.13 | *** join/#devuan QwertyDragon (~QwertyDra@pool-96-237-110-169.bstnma.fios.verizon.net) |
| 22:29.38 | *** join/#devuan Schallaven (~Schallave@pat-199-212-66-245.airyork.yorku.ca) |
| 22:31.37 | *** join/#devuan xkr47 (xkr47@dsl-hkibng21-50dc5b-162.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 22:55.35 | *** join/#devuan AlexLikeRock (~AlexLikeR@unaffiliated/alexlikerock) |
| 23:07.11 | *** join/#devuan IoFran2 (~Thunderbi@200.95.170.220) |
| 23:23.43 | *** join/#devuan telst4r (~Jukka@fsf/member/telst4r) |
| 23:26.53 | *** join/#devuan targz (~Thunderbi@unaffiliated/targz) |
| 23:46.22 | *** join/#devuan furrywolf (~furrywolf@172.58.35.237) |
