IRC log for #devuan on 20180913

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00:37.43*** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | **You need to auth to nickserv to talk!** | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan
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07:02.38drwhitehi folks, I have an issue with the dependancies for the repos.
07:03.16drwhiteI try to install something, and it goes to install it ut something that it installs with it requires what I'm trying to install as a dependancy
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08:39.38ocinhi, there seems to be a problem with eudev and the persistent network interfaces file. http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2333 is about one part of it (maked as solved but actually it's not officially solved). additionaly after trying this and modiying the network rules file in /etc/udev/rules.d, it seems to be fail on the next boot because it fails to rename the devices because they already exist :( any
08:39.38ocinhints?
08:43.56scraihtrename to other names worked here
08:44.10scraiht*different
08:55.57ocinI remember that it notmally would rename existing interfaces to ethX.rename or something so that it does not conflict, but it does not seem to do this step
08:58.33scraihtit? you mean /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules ?
08:59.42scraihtafter having problems with eth0/eth1 renaming I changed the names to net0 and lan0 and had no more problems
09:00.03scraihtin /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules that is
09:00.15ocinit being udev on boot after reading the 70-persistent-net.rules
09:00.44scraihtyes
09:01.38ocinudev itself fails to rename the devices to the ones I specified in the 70-persistent-net.rules
09:03.00ocinwell I see you use a completely a different naming, this would work
09:03.32ocinthough udev should be smart enough to rename existing interfaces to some temporary name to avoid existing devices
09:03.45ocinat least thats how it works on other distros
09:07.11scraihtwell iirc in my case udev used to do that or at least try
09:08.16scraihtthe kernel named the nics just the other way around
09:09.02scraihtwhen udev tried to rename eth1 (what's now net0) to eth0 (what it used to be) it was already there and then named eth2
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09:15.17ocincan anyone file a bug about the missing udev-finish? http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2333
09:16.13ocinI guess I go with custom names for the interfaces lan0 wan0 etc. to workaround all this broken stuff
09:17.15KatolaZocin: please send a bugreport
09:17.22KatolaZto bugs.devuan.org
09:27.42errandir_udev seems to think that renaming a device is atomic when it comes to the kernel, but this is not true. Renaming the device itself is, but all the related stuff (debugfs, sysfs, etc) is not.
09:32.38scraihtocin: you're right. udev wasn't smart enough to rename eth2 to eth0, in my case. just checked old logs
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09:34.07scraihtthat's why I choose interface names which do not collide with names given by the kernel in the first place
09:47.51ocinhmm. the problem I have is that I actually can't rename the interfaces. they should be predictable from the first boot. just tried net.ifnames=1
09:48.34ocinnow they are fixed but, uh, predictable? getting weird names
09:50.40ocin2 port nic in one pci slot: port 1: ens5f0 port 2: ens5f1d1
09:50.44ocinscratches head
09:51.50scraihtthese come from udev, no? what do you want to achieve
09:53.00ocinyea they come from udev, it's probably predicatable but very messy
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09:53.27ocinI've read about biosdevname but that does not seem to exist for devuan/debian
09:54.29ocinscraiht: basically I want predictable names that also make sense without having to rename interfaces
09:54.59djphocin: I just use a udev rule that says "this one's always eth0" or some such
09:58.43scraihti think thats not possible. kernel given interface names are not predictable for sure
09:59.48djphscraiht: is too, hang on ...
10:00.12scraihtso you only have the choice to rename them predictably with udev rules. CMIIW
10:00.12ocinI have a custom made devuan image which I need to roll out on 1k+ machines with 4-6 network ports and 2 different hw categories
10:01.10ocinso I need something predictable, best without having to rename stuff through a 70-persistent-net.rules
10:01.59ocinas the same HW is used net.ifnames=1 seems to be working but the nameing kinda sucks (but it would work)
10:02.30djphah...
10:03.16scraihtuh. ok. that is a different league..
10:04.06ocindells biosdevname does seem to create more sane interface names but it seems it's not ported to debian
10:04.08scraihtI only know on my machine the kernel does not name  the 2 nics (one PCI, one on board) consistently
10:04.10ocinubuntu seems to use it tho
10:04.41ocinscraiht: I think with the net.ifnames=1 kernel parameter it would
10:05.22scraihtok. havent tried that
10:07.27scraihtI remember to have read that the kernel naming of nics is under race condition... sry no reference
10:10.10ocinwith the default ethX naming scheme yes
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10:28.32ocinI'll roll a deb for biosdevname and see how that works out
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10:32.05errandir_ens5f0 is PCI function 0 in slot 5. Cannot remember the 'd1' thing exactly, I think it should not be there.
10:34.07ocind is the device port, weirdly it's only there when the pci function is 1 and not 0
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12:43.08ocinyay, biosdevname works like a charm, now it's em1 & em2 for the onboard ports and p4p1, p4p2, p5p1, p5p2 for the two 2-port pcie nics
12:43.43ocinand I don't need to touch the initscript
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12:48.26fsmithredocin, what happens if you just remove 70-persistent-net.rules?
12:48.59fsmithredyou have six nics?
12:49.55ocinit will then use unpredictable names (ethX) and race condition so its a lottery which nic is eth3 for example after every reboot
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12:50.34fsmithredyeah, I can see how that would be a mess
12:51.23ocinthe fix for this is kernel parameter net.ifnames=1 so you get predictable names but I didn't like them because they are too confusing
12:52.18ocinnow I made a deb for biosdevicename, set kernel parameter biosdevicename=1 and it's predictable and the names make more sense
12:52.51ocinall without any 70-persistent-net.rules
12:53.22fsmithredpredictable != memorable
12:53.48fsmithredcool. Any idea why it's not in debian repos?
12:54.15ocinand I don't need to care about the 2 bugs in devuans eudev it not writing the rules at all and it being unable to rename them if the rules exist and you just change the ethX numbers)
12:54.48ocinnot sure, it seems biodsevname is the default for ubuntu too
12:55.52ocinp5p2 is way more logical then ens5f1d1
12:59.23errandir_will you try to get the deb for biosdevicename into devuan, so wel all can benefit from this?
12:59.51fsmithredyeah, if someone wants to maintain it, it could get into devuan
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13:00.46fsmithredI especially like the names given to usb wireless dongles - wlx<mac-address>
13:03.34fsmithredpackaging info for devuan: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549
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13:22.40ocinwell at some point maybe
13:22.55ocinI've put it here for now: https://github.com/incognico/devuan-biosdevname
13:23.10fsmithredgreat, thanks!
13:23.17ocinif you want to test just use biosdevname_0.7.2-1_amd64.deb
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13:24.39fsmithreddid you have to create your own debian dir, or did you get it from ubuntu or somewhere else?
13:24.57ocinpretty much took most from ubuntu
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13:27.37fsmithredsomeone here argues for a postrm script to run update-initramfs - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27112436/how-does-biosdevname-really-work
13:28.10ocinif you wanna test: install deb, remove persistent net rules if you use those and add the biosdevname=1 kernel parameter
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13:34.33sxpertI have an issue with uwsgi
13:34.52sxpertmy setup starts when I launch from the command line, but not from the init script
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13:54.52fsmithredocin, it's not working for me. Do I need to make a udev rule?
13:59.21ocinit installs the 71-* rule under /lib/udev/rules.d
14:00.18ocinyou can test if it works in general by using biosdevname <some interface>
14:00.34ocinit then should return it's new name
14:02.35fsmithredreturns nothing
14:04.07fsmithredmaybe because I'm doing this inside virtualbox?
14:04.23ocinthats very possible
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14:05.23ocinit takes the infos from the bios (see readme of biosdevname itself), not sure how that works out with a virtualized environment/bios
14:05.46fsmithredyeah, that's what I was thinking. It's not a real bios.
14:06.14ocinI can also image it returning nothing due to (para)virtualized network drivers
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15:05.46ocinfsmithred: I've added the postrm thing
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16:08.02fsmithredocin, the postrm script works. But I'm not seeing a change with or without biosdevname=1 in the boot command. Running the command 'biosdevname -i wlan0' does return p1p1, but ip and ifconfig still show wlan0.
16:08.42fsmithredafk
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17:02.38nemohm
17:03.03nemoevery time I try to install vlc on my SO's upgraded-to-ascii laptop, it says I have dependency problems
17:03.44nemolooks like there's an "ascii-security" version
17:04.16nemoif I force-version to stable it succeeds
17:04.23nemoanyone happen to know what's going on here?
17:04.43nemo(that is, the 3.0.2 stable one is fine, the 3.0.3 ascii-security one conflicts with basically all the other vlc packages)
17:05.52KatolaZnemo: which repos are you using?
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17:06.07KatolaZ(I guess it's *.mirror.devuan.org)
17:07.17nemohttp://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ and http://download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian/ stretch - although the vbox one should not be involved here
17:07.59KatolaZnemo: have you ever read the ascii release notes?
17:08.04KatolaZyou should use deb.devuan.org
17:08.13nemook.
17:08.19KatolaZstarting with ascii, *.mirror.devuan.org and packages.devuan.org are deprecated
17:08.21nemoKatolaZ: TBH I don't even remember upgrading this one to ascii
17:08.24nemoalright
17:08.24KatolaZthey are still there only for jessie
17:08.31KatolaZand will be decommissioned
17:08.54nemoI do remember discussing it here beforehand, maybe I tentatively just tried renaming all the jessie's to asciis 'cause folks that that would be fine ☺
17:09.15KatolaZ:)
17:09.16KatolaZnp
17:10.23nemosince I'm here... is there a non-ESR firefox in the repo?
17:10.51nemoguess I'll check synaptic once the updates are complete
17:10.58KatolaZpkginfo.devuan.org
17:11.01KatolaZnemo: ^^^
17:11.02nemohm. that reminds me. gotta check to see if wifi and touchpad work in ascii now
17:11.29nemolooks like "no"
17:13.48nemowifi seems to be fixed
17:17.52nemohm https://launchpad.net/~hanipouspilot/+archive/ubuntu/ppa  supposedly fixes the touchpad
17:17.57nemowish I knew if it was safe to install
17:18.26KatolaZnemo: just look at the code
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17:20.40nemonothing obvious
17:20.45nemoalthough this *is* a lot to review
17:21.57nemobut I guess someone being tricksy wouldn't put in anything greppable ☺
17:22.08nemoat least someone trusted them enough to assign them bugs...
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17:31.13bkeysCan someone tell me how I am supposed to resize the partitions on a devuan ARM image?
17:31.14bkeysvega respect octopus
17:31.22bkeyshttps://github.com/nikolas-n/GNU-Linux-on-Asus-C201-Chromebook
17:31.27bkeysI'm using the image listed here
17:31.41bkeysEverytime I try to do it through gparted it just borks the install
17:38.50FatPhilthere were some instructions on the Raspian installation docs that did just that
17:40.05MrrtRaspian has its own util for that, raspi-config
17:44.08MrrtI used this resize.sh setting up ubuntu server on an ordoid xu4 https://hastebin.com/bazutijivo.bash
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17:48.21KatolaZMrrt: you should be careful at deleting the right partition there
17:48.45KatolaZIIRC some ARM images have only one partition, while some other have two partitions
17:48.50KatolaZparazyd: ^^^
17:49.18parazydDepends of whether it's GPT or DOS partitioned. Most of them are DOS, with the exception of Chromebooks IIRC.
17:49.21KatolaZit's actually much easier to follow the steps of that script manually
17:49.23parazyds,of,on,
17:49.52KatolaZbasically, delete the partition you want to resize
17:50.07KatolaZrecreate it at the same staring point, only larger
17:50.10KatolaZsave the changes
17:50.12KatolaZreboot
17:50.20KatolaZand then resize2fs after reboot
17:51.21parazydKatolaZ: You don't have to reboot for ext4.
17:51.29parazydIt can even resize a partition in use.
17:53.32KatolaZyeah I know
17:53.39KatolaZjust didn't know they were all ext4
17:53.42KatolaZ:)
17:56.02nemotouchpad still fails. oh well. looks like 4.13 kernel might solve
17:56.22KatolaZnemo: 4.17 is in ascii-backports atm
17:56.29nemooh? cool!
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17:57.03KatolaZnemo: pkginfo.devuan.org :)
17:57.43nemowell... I kinda thought with ascii-backports enabled I'd be recommended the latest kernel
17:59.00nemohm. guess I'll remove that other thingy I tried
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18:01.46KatolaZnemo: ascii-backports has a lower priority than ascii
18:02.13KatolaZand will never automatically override something coming  from ascii
18:02.43KatolaZotherwise you'll easily fuck your system up with automatic upgrades
18:03.44nemointeresting.  I kinda assumed backports had that exact "fuck up" risk as implicit
18:03.47nemobut good to know
18:04.03nemocould explain why so many debian players complain about never finding anyone on the hedgewars server
18:04.16nemoguess they never get the 0.9.24 (current hedgewars release) update
18:04.27nemoI thought backports enabled would be sufficient
18:05.17KatolaZsufficient for what?
18:05.41nemofor them to automatically get the game updates
18:07.35KatolaZnemo: no automagic is a good substitute for a human brain :)
18:09.07nemoyeaaah but most of the players are kids
18:09.12nemoalso wish debian had a bit more nuance
18:09.15nemokernel makes total sense
18:09.17nemogames... eh
18:09.42nemobasically any version of hedgewars that isn't the latest, you aren't going to have much fun since it's deterministic lockstep and protocol almost inevitably gets bumped
18:09.45nemosometimes several times
18:10.48KatolaZkids should use toys, not tools
18:10.56KatolaZ:)
18:11.17nemoheh. WAG they were not the ones who put debian on their machine
18:11.22nemobut we have same issue w/ ubuntu
18:11.33nemowhich probably is closer to toy category - or at least is intended to be
18:12.02bkeysparazyd: So can I do the resize from within the devuan installation?
18:12.52KatolaZbkeys: sure you can
18:13.21bkeysHow do I do that?
18:13.27bkeysPretty sure parted will fuck me
18:14.48KatolaZbkeys: ever used fdisk?
18:14.53bkeysYes
18:16.16KatolaZfdisk DEVICE
18:16.20KatolaZ(as root)
18:18.01KatolaZbkeys: get the list of partitions (p)
18:18.08bkeysMmhm
18:22.20bkeysKatolaZ: What next?
18:23.14KatolaZhow many partitions do you have? <- bkeys
18:23.42bkeys2
18:23.42KatolaZ(how many do you see after giving 'p'?)
18:23.49KatolaZok
18:24.03KatolaZwhich one you would like to resize?
18:24.09bkeysThe second one
18:25.02KatolaZbkeys: you must check that the second one is indeed physically placed after the first one
18:25.09KatolaZ(start-end block)
18:25.40bkeysIt is physically after the first one
18:25.45KatolaZok
18:26.05KatolaZ(I assume you have more space on the SD-card)
18:26.13bkeysYes
18:26.14KatolaZthen delete it
18:26.16KatolaZ'd'
18:26.18KatolaZ'2'
18:26.20KatolaZ'p'
18:26.38KatolaZ(and after that you should see only the first one)
18:26.47bkeysYep I only see the first one
18:27.07KatolaZthen re-create the second partition
18:27.10KatolaZ'n'
18:27.33KatolaZbe careful to use exactly the same starting block as the old one
18:27.38KatolaZ(it should be the default one)
18:27.41bkeysDoes -1 count as the endling block?
18:28.08KatolaZit should propose you the maximum size as default
18:28.39bkeysIt proposed like 1.7 gigs
18:28.44bkeysIt should be more like 60
18:30.04bkeysIt seems like it's limiting itself to the size of the current live partition, instead of the actual size of the disk
18:30.07KatolaZbut is it a GPT or a DOS partition table?
18:30.12bkeysGPT
18:30.20KatolaZok then you must quit now
18:30.23KatolaZwithout saving
18:30.27KatolaZq
18:30.34KatolaZotherwise you will fuck everything up
18:31.14KatolaZand use gdisk instead
18:33.06KatolaZsame commands under gdisk
18:33.16KatolaZbut it should be able to see the full device
18:34.07nemodamn. still doesn't work w/ 4.17 kernel - and this package uses older kernel setup so clearly wasn't intended for it. bleh.  what the heck is going on
18:34.40bkeysKatolaZ: Same thing, delete old partition and make new one?
18:34.50KatolaZyep
18:35.33KatolaZbkeys: you should have seen the total size of the device printed by gdisk when you launched it
18:36.12bkeysIt doesn't print the size, but it has the same issue as fdisk
18:36.33bkeysI wonder if it would stop doing this if I just turned it off and put it in another device that it wasn't live
18:37.14KatolaZbkeys: just try to specify a large number
18:37.16KatolaZlike 20GB
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18:39.12KatolaZbkeys: you can definitely do the same by plugging the device on another system
18:39.18KatolaZit shouldn't make any difference though
18:39.30bkeysYeah I did plug it in, and it made no difference
18:42.08gnarfaceascii should still be fine with kernel 4.1 if i'm running headless, right?
18:42.46nemohttps://askubuntu.com/questions/1049787/lenovo-ideapad-330-touchpad-not-working  whooo boy. this is going to be a bit of work
18:42.48KatolaZbkeys: then you must consider the possibility that the sd-card is not as large as advertised
18:42.50nemoguess I'll leave it alone for no
18:42.52nemo*w
18:42.59bkeysKatolaZ: I know for a fact that it is
18:43.05KatolaZok
18:43.41KatolaZbkeys: if you are willing to risk to fuck the system up again, you can try to redefine the shape
18:43.54KatolaZin gdisk expert mode
18:44.05KatolaZ(sorry, I meant redefine the geometry)
18:44.23bkeysWell the weird thing is gdisk is telling me it's the right size
18:44.33bkeysDisk /dev/mmcblk1: 125829120 sectors, 60.0 GiB
18:45.35KatolaZmmmhhh
18:45.44KatolaZso it sees it all
18:45.59KatolaZare you sure that there is no other partition after the second one?
18:46.04bkeysYes
18:46.50KatolaZhave you tried putting a large number as the new partition size?
18:46.53KatolaZlike 20G
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18:47.18bkeysIt just ignores it and spits out another prompt
18:47.30bkeysLast sector (40960-3543006, default = 3543006) or {+-}size{KMGTP}: 20G
18:47.30bkeysLast sector (40960-3543006, default = 3543006) or {+-}size{KMGTP}:
18:48.08KatolaZput the default
18:48.08nemough acpidump doesn't show "ELAN" anything - so... this laptop isn't even displaying it?
18:48.30bkeysThe default will come out as 1.7 gigs
18:48.40KatolaZyep
18:49.02bkeysAlright
18:49.04KatolaZcan you please post the screen you see after inserting "p"?
18:50.02bkeysNumber  Start (sector)    End (sector)  Size       Code  Name
18:50.02bkeys<PROTECTED>
18:50.02bkeys<PROTECTED>
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18:51.00KatolaZbkeys: which image are you using?
18:51.19bkeyshttps://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_jessie/embedded/devuan_jessie_1.0.0_armhf_chromeveyron.img.xz
18:51.20bkeysThis one
18:51.31KatolaZhold on
18:52.04nemohttps://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196985  perfect!
18:52.34nemohm odd. "
18:52.35nemoThis issue is resolved on my laptop as of kernel 4.14-rc7."
18:52.55KatolaZbkeys: downloading it now
18:53.50nemo'[    0.922912] i8042: PNP: PS/2 appears to have AUX port disabled, if this is incorrect please boot with i8042.nopnp'  - I get same message. neat. let's try that option
18:57.55bkeyshttps://github.com/nikolas-n/GNU-Linux-on-Asus-C201-Chromebook/issues/1
18:57.58bkeysKatolaZ: This might be relevant
18:59.05nemo# CONFIG_PINCTRL_AMD is not set
18:59.08nemo☹ ☹
18:59.13nemowelllllp I'm boned
18:59.17nemounless I build a custom kernel
18:59.39nemoand. gotta say, that's a lot more fun to do on gentoo than debian ☺
19:00.40nemohttps://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=876141 hah
19:01.22nemoguess I'll add my voice to the bug
19:01.40KatolaZparazyd: it seems that the protective MBR is sized at 1.7GB
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19:05.04KatolaZbkeys: I have it
19:05.09KatolaZbkeys: are you still here?
19:05.12bkeysYep
19:05.45KatolaZso
19:05.50KatolaZin gdisk
19:06.05KatolaZgdisk /dev/WHATEVER
19:06.11bkeysI'm there
19:06.13*** join/#devuan GoatAvenger (~GoatAveng@unaffiliated/goatavenger)
19:06.14KatolaZx
19:06.19KatolaZ(expert mode)
19:06.25KatolaZ...
19:06.45*** join/#devuan level7_ (~quassel@31.44.17.250)
19:06.46bkeysnods
19:06.51KatolaZnow
19:06.53KatolaZ'e'
19:07.02KatolaZ(relocate backup data structures to the end of the disk)
19:07.07KatolaZ...
19:07.18bkeysAlright
19:07.22KatolaZnow
19:07.25KatolaZ'm'
19:07.32KatolaZ(return to main menu)
19:07.38KatolaZ...
19:08.35bkeysAlright
19:08.37KatolaZnow 'p' should tell you that the last usable sector is much larger than before
19:09.10bkeysThat fixed it
19:09.27KatolaZnow
19:09.28KatolaZ'd'
19:09.29KatolaZ'2'
19:09.31KatolaZthen
19:09.35KatolaZ'n'
19:09.37KatolaZetcetera
19:09.46KatolaZwhen you are done, just 'w'
19:09.58*** join/#devuan level7 (~quassel@31.44.17.250)
19:09.59KatolaZand then you need resize2fs
19:10.13KatolaZand you should be set
19:10.33bkeysjust resize2fs <DEVICE>
19:10.35bkeys?
19:10.56bkeysErr
19:11.03bkeysresize2fs <DEVICE>p2
19:12.46KatolaZyep
19:13.14bkeysSurprisingly enough it boots and I didn't fuck it up
19:13.24KatolaZgood
19:14.37nemoso. just wondering. I sent a replay to that debian bug - but do you guys, by any chance, do your own kernel builds?
19:14.49nemoif so, could I request that CONFIG_PINCTRL_AMD=y be enabled?
19:15.02nemofor that ascii-backports kernel?
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19:29.16jellyso a user in #debian wants to migrate from devuan jessie back to debian, does that sound feasible?
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19:33.51golinuxjelly: Inquiring minds would like to know why?
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19:59.27DocScrutinizer05>>[2018-09-12 02:49:37] <g4570n> https://lincolnloop.com/blog/saying-goodbye-botbotme/<< to me that seems like a panic mode reaction to GDPR, based on a lack of insight into the real requirements that result from it
20:02.17*** join/#devuan Menelkir (~terramex@unaffiliated/menelkir)
20:02.59DocScrutinizer05chanlogs are announced in /topic (this always been mandatory in best sense of what GDPR tried to implement now on a wider basis). There's no further issue with chanlogs, no requirements to allow individual users to opt out or whatever. No reason to shut down botbot
20:04.27KatolaZbkeys: did it work?
20:04.35bkeysYes, thank you
20:04.35*** join/#devuan raoulzecat (~raoulzeca@2a02:a03f:5259:e700:4921:e68d:6d96:90c8)
20:04.41KatolaZgood
20:04.42KatolaZyw
20:05.37*** join/#devuan GoatAvenger (~GoatAveng@unaffiliated/goatavenger)
20:14.08DocScrutinizer05worst: this panic-driven approach is contagious
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21:40.59silverwillowhey all - what's the devuan way for building a more recent linux kernel than 4.9 in ASCII? can i just get a kernel tarball and do a menuconfig?
21:41.47AirstrikeGooglesilverwillow: gzcat /proc/config.gz > /usr/src/linux/.config; make oldconfig
21:41.50AirstrikeGoogleperhaps
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21:42.16Menelkiror using a repo that you can trust
21:42.46Menelkirreally trust, lol
21:45.25DocScrutinizer05default answer: same like debian
21:45.42AirstrikeGoogleDocScrutinizer05: good point
21:46.01Menelkiryeah probably there's no issues about kernel, even funtoo use debian-sources by default and works
21:47.58silverwillowok will RTFM wrt. how it's done in debian - thanks.
21:52.10KatolaZsilverwillow: you have 4.17 in ascii-backports, if you don't want to build your own
21:53.44silverwillowoh - excellent - that will do :)
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