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| 00:03.27 | cehteh | hum i need some ssh heartbeat, when connection dies, then it reverts everything in /etc (etckeeper) and reboots .. does such a tool exist? |
| 00:10.47 | koollman | it seems a bit extreme. easy enough to make, I guess. starting a script that checks if your sshd process is still running, and when it stops, revert and reboot |
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| 00:12.12 | cehteh | i wonder if such doesnt already exist |
| 00:12.28 | cehteh | use case: tinkering with network configuration on a remote machine |
| 00:13.04 | cehteh | only enable that while one is testing things |
| 00:13.09 | koollman | yeah, I get the idea :) |
| 00:13.49 | koollman | I've done similar things in the past, but limited. usually mostly for firewall rules, and then iptables-apply was created and I was set |
| 00:14.00 | koollman | I guess for ssh or interfaces changes, it could still be useful |
| 00:15.29 | cehteh | firehol has the 'firehol try' command .. when the firewall is loaded you have to enter 'commit' within 30 secs |
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| 00:18.58 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | **You need to auth to nickserv to talk!** | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
| 00:18.58 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 00:18.59 | cehteh | when i need it again i may hack something together |
| 00:20.43 | cehteh | btw is the packager of libvirt present here, or where do i file issues/wishlist things? |
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| 00:22.13 | koollman | base idea: while kill -0 pidtowatch ; sleep 1 ; done ; cd /etc ; git stash ; shutdown -r +5 "Server restarting because pidtowatch is gone" |
| 00:22.37 | Joerg-Neo900 | so what about the channel /topic? would any of you channel users want it changed to be more up2date? |
| 00:23.10 | koollman | (and you can shutdown -c, then git stash apply, to keep your changes) |
| 00:23.38 | cehteh | yeah something like that |
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| 00:34.55 | Joerg-Neo900 | cehteh: echo -e '#!/bin/sh \n sleep 300 \n wall -n "mywatchdog is going to reboot system in 90s. To abort this, do sudo killall mywatchdog" \n shutdown -r now' >/usr/local/sbin/mywatchdog; chown root /usr/local/sbin/mywatchdog; chmod +x /usr/local/sbin/mywatchdog |
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| 00:36.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | then on local system run a `while sleep 240; do ssh root@myserver "killall mywatchdog; /usr/local/bin/mywatchdog; done` |
| 00:37.58 | cehteh | Joerg-Neo900: yes sure, pretty simple |
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| 00:38.14 | cehteh | hi btw, ltns |
| 00:38.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | hi! long time no see |
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| 00:43.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | cehteh: actually sorry, this suggestion of mine has a bug; you need to detach mywatchdog process from terminal, aka "daemonize". So it doesn't get killed when your ssh connection closes |
| 00:44.41 | cehteh | i dont need it anymore, box is working |
| 00:48.28 | Joerg-Neo900 | a lot of systems have a similar thing OOTB. E.G my router (vyos/EdgeMAX) has: |
| 00:48.32 | Joerg-Neo900 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:48.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:48.44 | Joerg-Neo900 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:49.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | when you don't give `confirm` a 10 min after commit-confirm, the system reboots |
| 00:49.28 | cehteh | before etckeeper existed i hacked my own etc-in-git thing |
| 00:50.06 | cehteh | somone suggestd me the briliant idea (on a shared administrated host) that instead having a daily autocommit do a daily autorevert :) |
| 00:51.53 | Joerg-Neo900 | and yeah, usually you want the watchdog to also boot to a known-good config |
| 00:52.11 | cehteh | well some automatism for etckeeper to commit changes on a successful boot and revert changes from a failed boot would be nice, i am pretty sure someone done that somewhere (iirc you can hook things into that) |
| 00:52.36 | cehteh | and you want to push people to commit their changes with meaningful comments |
| 00:53.48 | Joerg-Neo900 | hehe, would you be surprised to hear maemo had this stuff since ... maemo5 for sure, maybe maemo4 or earlier? |
| 00:54.33 | Joerg-Neo900 | I'm not entirely sure what exactly it protected |
| 00:54.42 | Joerg-Neo900 | ( |
| 00:54.47 | Joerg-Neo900 | (still protects) |
| 00:57.21 | Joerg-Neo900 | anyway /rescue/* |
| 00:59.23 | Joerg-Neo900 | https://pastebin.com/z1zVarEt |
| 01:03.08 | Joerg-Neo900 | prolly it monitors all HAM (apt) package manager activities |
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| 01:11.19 | Joerg-Neo900 | in /etc/init.d/rcS: https://pastebin.com/bBEDi0bK -- and the ham-rescue.sh: https://pastebin.com/92iWT5q0 |
| 01:19.28 | Joerg-Neo900 | /me flares at " export BOOTSTATE="USER" \n touch /tmp/$BOOTSTATE \n echo $BOOTSTATE > /tmp/STATE" and scratches head. --- IroN900:~# ls -l /tmp/U* /tmp/STATE |
| 01:19.29 | Joerg-Neo900 | -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 5 2018-07-11 03:22 /tmp/STATE |
| 01:19.31 | Joerg-Neo900 | -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2018-07-11 03:22 /tmp/USER |
| 01:20.17 | Joerg-Neo900 | either legacy cruft or a nasty mistake |
| 01:21.03 | Joerg-Neo900 | cehteh: is etckeeper some established thing? |
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| 01:21.36 | cehteh | yes |
| 01:21.39 | Joerg-Neo900 | nm https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/etckeeper.html.en |
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| 02:23.33 | ServiceRobot | so I've cracked the mystery of openrc I think. if you attempt to install it during installation as a replacement for sysv-rc, it doesn't work. you need to install sysv-rc first, and then replace it with openrc |
| 02:23.57 | ServiceRobot | I'm not exactly sure why it works that way, but at least I figured out how to make it work |
| 02:25.31 | ServiceRobot | in fact, the graphical installer makes you do it this way. choose-init doesn't work until you've installed the base system |
| 02:25.44 | ServiceRobot | very strange indeed |
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| 02:28.16 | gnarface | ServiceRobot: it's something to do with the post/pre install scripts |
| 02:28.37 | gnarface | none of it is magic, they all have to be painstakingly made to play nice with each other by hand |
| 02:28.51 | gnarface | often, that includes building in assumptions about what order certain things are installed in |
| 02:29.06 | ServiceRobot | ya, it's just weird how I need to install sysv-rc first, then replace it instead of just have openrc |
| 02:29.16 | gnarface | they try to cover all the bases, but ad-hoc installation isn't really in the budget for debugging most the time |
| 02:29.27 | ServiceRobot | ad-hoc? |
| 02:30.06 | ServiceRobot | right, but at the very least I've solved the mystery. I think |
| 02:30.24 | gnarface | that's the important part |
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| 02:39.57 | ServiceRobot | one reason I want to use openrc is netifrc (although I would prefer runit but I don't think it's supported currently) |
| 02:40.27 | ServiceRobot | there's a compatibility script called runit-sysv but that's not the same role openrc fills in sysv-rc's absence |
| 02:40.43 | ServiceRobot | but options are always good |
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| 05:40.50 | mbuf | Which bootloader does the devsus.sh use? https://github.com/dimkr/devsus/blob/master/devsus.sh |
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| 06:27.59 | ServiceRobot | so I'm trying to understand how Devuan sets itself apart from Debian other than the removal of systemd and sysvinit by default |
| 06:28.18 | ServiceRobot | are packages from debian modified in anyway? |
| 06:28.23 | ServiceRobot | *any way |
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| 06:31.17 | detha | Where necessary to remove systemd dependencies, they are modified. |
| 06:31.42 | ServiceRobot | an example? |
| 06:33.13 | detha | desktops (login needs some systemd stuff) |
| 06:33.26 | ServiceRobot | like GNOME? |
| 06:33.30 | ServiceRobot | which I don't use btw |
| 06:34.10 | detha | neither do I (xfce), but that is one example |
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| 06:34.36 | ServiceRobot | I imagine it must be hell stripping systemd from GNOME |
| 06:35.40 | MinceR | the worst part is that you still end up with gnome |
| 06:36.39 | ServiceRobot | when I first moved to linux and eventually settled on xfce, I was afraid by the lack of features compared to the windows desktop... then I soon realized I didn't need much more than what it provided |
| 06:37.02 | ServiceRobot | kind of a big wake up to me that more doesn't really mean MORE |
| 06:37.06 | ServiceRobot | if you catch my drift |
| 06:37.31 | MinceR | i found more features than in the windows desktop, and probably used more too |
| 06:37.41 | MinceR | like virtual desktops and non-crippled panels |
| 06:37.46 | ServiceRobot | well more on the terminal, sure |
| 06:37.55 | ServiceRobot | non-crippled panels? |
| 06:38.22 | ServiceRobot | xfce panel still has a few kinks I wish would get worked out. same with thunar |
| 06:38.27 | ServiceRobot | otherwise it's a golden desktop |
| 06:38.32 | MinceR | well, xfce panel has gone to shit since then |
| 06:38.51 | ServiceRobot | what happened to xfce panel? it works fine for me with only a few issues |
| 06:38.53 | MinceR | now on most systems it's enough to try to remove one of the panels to make it crash and restart with all panels still there |
| 06:39.07 | MinceR | they jury-rigged some sort of settings daemon under it, among other things |
| 06:39.34 | ServiceRobot | for xfce panel? how is that a problem? |
| 06:39.59 | MinceR | makes it heavier and more difficult to configure |
| 06:40.09 | MinceR | especially if you have to edit the config file to work around a bug |
| 06:40.14 | MinceR | like the one i mentioned |
| 06:40.23 | ServiceRobot | which bug? |
| 06:40.33 | MinceR | that trying to remove the second panel often makes it crash |
| 06:40.39 | MinceR | instead of removing the second panel |
| 06:41.00 | ServiceRobot | oh? I've installed and removed the panel plenty of times with no crashes |
| 06:41.15 | ServiceRobot | you mean the default bottom panel that emulates a macos feel? |
| 06:41.17 | ServiceRobot | the dock? |
| 06:41.21 | MinceR | yeah |
| 06:41.33 | ServiceRobot | I can delete it without crashes. I've never had a crash from removing it |
| 06:41.34 | MinceR | i'm not sure which version has this issue, but i've struggled with it on 2 machines, including one at work |
| 06:41.43 | ServiceRobot | which distributions? |
| 06:41.53 | MinceR | funtoo |
| 06:41.56 | ServiceRobot | and what versions? |
| 06:42.02 | MinceR | dunno, haven't checked |
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| 06:42.17 | ServiceRobot | never used it. might be how the distro handles it. I use Artix and never had crash issues |
| 06:51.58 | ServiceRobot | https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/74/Heavy_yes02.wav |
| 06:52.00 | ServiceRobot | woops |
| 06:52.10 | ServiceRobot | wrong channel |
| 06:52.49 | MinceR | at any rate, if it depends on a settings daemon, it isn't lightweight |
| 06:53.21 | ServiceRobot | I suppose. maybe complain on their issue tracker to make it more modular? |
| 06:53.31 | ServiceRobot | it's still more modular than most desktop environments |
| 06:53.44 | ServiceRobot | can't have everything |
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| 07:06.17 | MinceR | i'm looking for other panels instead |
| 07:06.28 | MinceR | i switched to fvwm anyway |
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| 07:24.45 | gnarface | ServiceRobot: there's a list of packages that could not be sanitized of systemd, and have been removed entirely because of that. besides this list, and the re-packaging of tons of other packages, every effort has been made to preserve expected behavior. (the behavior WE expected from years of prior work with Debian, not the behavior all those systemd monkeys expected their 6-month unix crash course certified by |
| 07:24.46 | gnarface | Microsoft, Inc.) https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt |
| 07:25.23 | bozonius | +1 |
| 07:25.32 | gnarface | you'll find that in most cases it's so much like debian that the word debian is still floating about in places it doesn't belong |
| 07:25.54 | gnarface | the vast majority of packages haven't actually even been changed, and in fact are dynamically pulled from the debian repos directly |
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| 07:26.25 | ServiceRobot | which begs the question why we needed to fork debian if it's mostly the same |
| 07:26.44 | ServiceRobot | was adding an extra repo not enough? |
| 07:26.47 | gnarface | because you can't actually get systemd out of debian |
| 07:27.05 | bozonius | xfce is gnome right? |
| 07:27.09 | gnarface | if you actually try (on a machine that's not headless and using ext4) you'll find all sorts of regressions and blockages |
| 07:27.11 | ServiceRobot | I see "replace systemd with debian" from google results but I guess it's bullshit |
| 07:27.19 | ServiceRobot | *with sysvinit |
| 07:27.46 | ServiceRobot | I've been seeing a lot of astroturfing instead of legitimate talk and it makes it hard to form any sort of opinion |
| 07:28.08 | bozonius | xfce is built on gnome, I mean? |
| 07:28.12 | ServiceRobot | no |
| 07:28.23 | ServiceRobot | MATE is a fork of GNOME 2 |
| 07:28.33 | ServiceRobot | that must be what you're thinking |
| 07:28.50 | bozonius | so xfce is distinct from gnome then? |
| 07:29.09 | gnarface | ServiceRobot: their aggression style is a systematic set of regressive patches in the form of "nobody was using this anymore right? -> purge" and "oopses, we didn't test sysvinit with your filesystem!" that fly under the radar of public discussion. to see what they're doing wrong you actually have to seriously try not to use systemd. it helps if you were already familiar with how things worked before it came on the |
| 07:29.09 | gnarface | scene. |
| 07:29.31 | gnarface | bozonius: yea, xfce is not related to gnome |
| 07:29.39 | bozonius | ok |
| 07:30.09 | bozonius | I heard ServiceRobot say he had problems with xfce and you were talking gnome, so I thought maybe... |
| 07:30.27 | bozonius | I mean you were talking *systemd |
| 07:30.29 | bozonius | (sorry) |
| 07:30.32 | bozonius | (it's late here) |
| 07:30.41 | bozonius | is not helping here... at all |
| 07:30.51 | gnarface | ServiceRobot: when you've been upgrading debian systems without problems for more than a decade and the FIRST upgrade fails because of systemd, then you find out WHY and it's because they replaced a symlink with a broken script that nobody tested IN A PACKAGE THAT DOESN'T EVEN DEPEND ON IT... then you realize they're breaking shit on purpose. |
| 07:31.30 | gnarface | or when you try to uninstall systemd and find out no window managers are installable anymore |
| 07:31.35 | gnarface | that sort of shit |
| 07:31.47 | gnarface | or how they scuttled lm-sensors |
| 07:32.00 | gnarface | and then went right after the login process |
| 07:32.15 | bozonius | stomach is turning |
| 07:32.27 | bozonius | savages |
| 07:32.43 | ServiceRobot | nah, I said I wasn't having problems with xfce |
| 07:32.45 | ServiceRobot | that was someone else |
| 07:32.46 | gnarface | they're systematically replacing stuff that's been working for literally decades, because they think it's old and crufty. but then they can't walk the walk they talk, and everything they replace is broken |
| 07:32.57 | bozonius | oh, sorry ServiceRobot my bad |
| 07:33.21 | ErRandir | re-installed sysvinit before devuan existed. That worked for a while but over time systemd invaded and broke more and more stuff |
| 07:33.30 | gnarface | and every time, their justification is itself based on a sophomoric level of understanding of the way it was meant to be used |
| 07:33.31 | ServiceRobot | people seem to be using that same argument for wayland |
| 07:34.11 | gnarface | yea, the same argument can be made for wayland, and i've in fact made that argument myself, but wayland currently isn't an active threat because it doesn't build and it doesn't work with Steam |
| 07:34.22 | gnarface | it doesn't work with NVidia binary drivers, and probably never will |
| 07:34.23 | ServiceRobot | the claim that systemd makes is that traditional initscripts are "hard to maintain" and "prone to errors" |
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| 07:34.28 | ServiceRobot | isn't that with anything you do? |
| 07:34.42 | gnarface | the traditional init scripts are only hard to maintain if you're a shitty programmer |
| 07:34.54 | gnarface | q.e.d. |
| 07:34.56 | gnarface | is that a qed? |
| 07:35.11 | gnarface | i dunno, it felt clever though :) |
| 07:35.18 | ServiceRobot | mind you I only started using linux in 2016 so I can't speak from experience |
| 07:35.25 | gnarface | oh |
| 07:35.37 | gnarface | 1997 here, and i'm still feeling dumb for not finding out about it sooner |
| 07:35.40 | bozonius | I started using Linux in the mid-1990s and got serious about it in the early 2000's |
| 07:36.29 | bozonius | I didn't know about systemd until about 2014 or so when I upgraded mageia 4 to 5 and discovered the missing log files... |
| 07:36.36 | ServiceRobot | holy crap. I was born in 1997... |
| 07:36.51 | gnarface | you sound a lot older than that. good for you. |
| 07:37.18 | gnarface | you've obviously been packed full of a lot of crap, but you're asking the right questions. that's good. |
| 07:37.22 | bozonius | the missing log files made me angry |
| 07:37.26 | ServiceRobot | really? I don't know what I'm doing most of the time. I just follow directions and try to get ideas from other people |
| 07:37.30 | gnarface | more people need to be asking the right questions in this world. |
| 07:38.00 | bozonius | maybe it is time to kind of "start all over" |
| 07:38.05 | ServiceRobot | if I were to go into software development now, what linux has taught me is that modularity is very important |
| 07:38.40 | ServiceRobot | systemd seems to be splitting the community heavily. that already tells me something is wrong if it has to come to that |
| 07:39.50 | bozonius | it would be a LOT of work, but I wonder if it might actually make things better in the long run |
| 07:40.09 | ServiceRobot | mind you I used systemd when I first started linux. the only bug I encountered was a message that would say "A stop job is running" when I try to shut down my system |
| 07:40.23 | ServiceRobot | drove me crazy after a while |
| 07:41.06 | ServiceRobot | I talked to someone else that said I shouldn't "deviate to a distro that has little support compared to what everyone else uses" |
| 07:41.19 | ServiceRobot | but I like taking risks |
| 07:41.20 | bozonius | of course they would say that |
| 07:41.27 | ServiceRobot | he's a sysadmin |
| 07:41.30 | bozonius | F.U.D. |
| 07:42.04 | bozonius | sad |
| 07:42.18 | ServiceRobot | from his perspective, most production servers use debian, centos, or fedora (I think). |
| 07:42.38 | ServiceRobot | no one has forked centos or fedora like devuan did though |
| 07:42.59 | bozonius | when I tried using Mageia 5, which was their first release with systemd, I felt like a stranger in my own house |
| 07:43.08 | bozonius | where are my log files I wondered |
| 07:43.23 | ServiceRobot | I've seen that argument used as well. "binary logs" |
| 07:43.34 | bozonius | oh, you have to run this contorted bunch of options to a new program so you can see the entries |
| 07:43.43 | bozonius | it's much better that way I was told |
| 07:44.06 | gnarface | binary logs are a great idea if you're trying to install linux on a pocket watch with 256MB of storage, but when you're trying to get work done, logs need to be complete and reliable |
| 07:44.26 | bozonius | standardizing the format of the log files -- great idea. But no reason to crunch them down into binary! |
| 07:44.36 | ServiceRobot | I'd be down for a linux watch actually. like WearOS. lol |
| 07:45.01 | ServiceRobot | is there no option to use regular logs? |
| 07:45.06 | bozonius | yes |
| 07:45.08 | ServiceRobot | I mean an option is at least something |
| 07:45.24 | bozonius | there is a way to disable journalctl mechanism |
| 07:45.34 | gnarface | i thought systemd will let you turn them back on but it just copies them from journalctl so if you crash you still lose all the last logs? |
| 07:46.04 | gnarface | i could be wrong about that, that's just something i thought someone else said in here |
| 07:46.05 | bozonius | i thought there was a way to tell systemd to log to somethng like syslog-ng or the like |
| 07:46.08 | bozonius | I coudl be wrong |
| 07:46.15 | bozonius | *could |
| 07:46.21 | ServiceRobot | that seems like a hacky solution |
| 07:46.29 | gnarface | yea i thought it was just pointing journalctl to rsyslogd |
| 07:46.29 | bozonius | fingers: pay attention please! |
| 07:46.51 | bozonius | may be, idk. I've never tried it, nor have I wanted to. |
| 07:47.35 | gnarface | anyway, the summary is, systemd is the type of thing that sounds like a great plan in an executive board-room meeting, but we're all here because they couldn't prove it in practice. |
| 07:47.43 | bozonius | Aside from devuan, are there any other "linux" projects that are trying to establish some kind of bulkhead against further intrustion of systemd? |
| 07:47.48 | gnarface | (and we didn't think the old system was broke to begin with) |
| 07:47.56 | bozonius | (agreed!) |
| 07:48.06 | ServiceRobot | there's a whole website that lists systemd-free distros |
| 07:48.13 | bozonius | I loved CentOS until 7 |
| 07:48.14 | gnarface | bozonius: slackware is still standing against the tide but it's literally one guy and he desperately needs donations |
| 07:48.18 | bozonius | I looked |
| 07:48.40 | ServiceRobot | Artix is by far the best rolling release solution for me |
| 07:48.44 | bozonius | I don't care for the way most of those distros are packaged. Many lack straightforward installation scripts |
| 07:48.54 | ServiceRobot | as for stable releases I haven't settled yet. but devuan seems to be what I'll use |
| 07:48.58 | detha | the old system was good. the motivation for the binary logs was good, but it should have been an optional extra |
| 07:49.01 | bozonius | I also don't care for rolling release for my host systems |
| 07:49.03 | ServiceRobot | I gave Hyperbola a try but ran into problems with it |
| 07:49.11 | bozonius | me too! |
| 07:49.20 | ServiceRobot | you tried Hyperbola? |
| 07:49.24 | bozonius | Tried parabola also |
| 07:49.25 | bozonius | yeah |
| 07:49.40 | bozonius | (trying to recall what the problem(s) was) |
| 07:49.43 | ServiceRobot | main issue is that they are strictly libre so it won't work with game server software |
| 07:49.53 | ServiceRobot | nor do they offer help with it |
| 07:50.11 | bozonius | have you ever tried to get help from Artix? Or Anti-X? |
| 07:50.14 | bozonius | zip |
| 07:50.19 | ServiceRobot | if you want to just run a LEMP setup, it's great for that |
| 07:50.31 | ServiceRobot | yes. they have an irc channel and a forum |
| 07:50.35 | bozonius | I've even posted requests on their forums, and no response |
| 07:50.50 | ServiceRobot | though I figure out most of my issues through google and only get advice from forums and irc |
| 07:50.58 | bozonius | same here |
| 07:51.08 | ServiceRobot | since I don't want to end of asking questions that can be solved with research |
| 07:51.13 | ServiceRobot | *end up |
| 07:51.21 | bozonius | when they do respond, it feels like they are saying I am not capable of running a Linux box |
| 07:51.42 | bozonius | because I can't decode their odd, incomplete way of installing and configuring |
| 07:51.42 | ServiceRobot | though I hate coming across someone with the same problem as me from like 2007 and no responses. google has no way of knowing if there are responses |
| 07:52.10 | bozonius | lol. Yeah, I find myself turning on custom filter in google search |
| 07:52.19 | bozonius | request like the last 3 years worth |
| 07:52.21 | ServiceRobot | those filters never save for me |
| 07:52.37 | bozonius | they are not helpful, no. I think a lot of people gave up years ago |
| 07:52.48 | ServiceRobot | I'd say a problem worse than systemd at the moment is browser choice |
| 07:52.56 | ServiceRobot | currently I'm stuck between chromium or firefox |
| 07:53.14 | bozonius | desktops are limited on some of these distros |
| 07:53.18 | ServiceRobot | I could use something simpler but extensions extensions extensions! |
| 07:53.29 | bozonius | unless you want to do a lot of manual configuring yourself |
| 07:53.43 | ServiceRobot | Arch taught me the value of manual configuration |
| 07:53.58 | bozonius | manual configuration has its pluses |
| 07:54.32 | ServiceRobot | also, I got devuan working on my usb with openrc. I don't use direct isos on my usb like I used to |
| 07:54.43 | ServiceRobot | I was getting tired of constantly reformatting it for other distros |
| 07:54.50 | bozonius | but what I really want for my main host system is a fixed release with mostly preconfigured default desktop and other programs. I save the fun (Artix, Anti-X, Alpine, etc) for my VMs |
| 07:55.09 | bozonius | cool |
| 07:55.09 | ServiceRobot | so I installed refind to a fat partition, and a btrfs partition with subsolvumes for different distros |
| 07:55.28 | bozonius | any hard drives? |
| 07:55.31 | ServiceRobot | though idk if btrfs is really meant to work on usbs. seems to work for me |
| 07:55.59 | ServiceRobot | I would use Alpine but I need multilib support |
| 07:56.17 | ServiceRobot | seems like Alpine would be a good router distro though if I ever build my own router |
| 07:56.23 | bozonius | I've heard solid state drives like USB kind of break down after a while... they are limited to a certain number of writes or something |
| 07:56.59 | ServiceRobot | well I only install the absolute minimum packages on the usbs. isos tend to have more than I want |
| 07:57.02 | bozonius | I'd be using Alpine if it had a decent installer and, moreover, supported VirtualBox, which is my preferred VM tool |
| 07:57.10 | ServiceRobot | this way I can modify the usb without reformatting it |
| 07:57.16 | ServiceRobot | and not dealing with squashfs |
| 07:57.23 | bozonius | (I've been using vbox since about 2010 or so and I like it) |
| 07:57.40 | detha | alpine would make a decent router distro, but for a router I'd rather use openBSD or freeBSD |
| 07:57.44 | ServiceRobot | I was having trouble with virtualbox without systemd but got it working eventually |
| 07:57.58 | ServiceRobot | I heard openwrt is also good |
| 07:58.23 | bozonius | I'm using IPfire and EndianFire for routers -- they are running as VM appliances! |
| 07:58.23 | ServiceRobot | the router in our house has been replaced several times over the last few years from comcast. absolute garbage |
| 07:58.35 | bozonius | amen to that! |
| 07:58.44 | bozonius | and add TV service to that |
| 07:58.56 | ServiceRobot | I just took a networking class and have my final tomorrow, so I understand how to setup a network now |
| 07:59.10 | bozonius | summer classes? |
| 07:59.15 | bozonius | or is this for work? |
| 07:59.20 | ServiceRobot | summer classes |
| 07:59.30 | ServiceRobot | I don't do much else with my time anyway |
| 07:59.37 | bozonius | :) |
| 08:00.05 | bozonius | I think EndianFire has a very nice interface, though it is far more complicated than IPFire |
| 08:00.09 | bozonius | I like both, actually. |
| 08:00.17 | ServiceRobot | what's EndianFire and IPFire? |
| 08:00.20 | bozonius | I'm still learning how to do stuff with them |
| 08:00.23 | bozonius | routers |
| 08:00.26 | ServiceRobot | ah |
| 08:00.38 | bozonius | firewall routers I guess you'd say |
| 08:00.43 | ServiceRobot | what type of hardware would you need to custom build a router? |
| 08:00.53 | bozonius | anything |
| 08:01.00 | detha | what throughput do you need for the router? |
| 08:01.13 | ServiceRobot | not sure |
| 08:01.29 | bozonius | for a few years maybe 10 years ago, I was using my old Compaq Presario 486 for IPcop (from which IPFire forked) |
| 08:01.35 | detha | <100Mb/s: any old PC or single-board |
| 08:01.49 | ServiceRobot | I can just use a normal pc as a router? |
| 08:01.51 | detha | >100Mb/s: something with a decent NIC and some CPU power |
| 08:02.11 | bozonius | I slipped in a couple of NICs (only 2 slots then, and they were ISA slots!) |
| 08:02.16 | ServiceRobot | if that's the case I can use the computer I was given by a friend to do it |
| 08:02.18 | bozonius | got excellent performance |
| 08:02.37 | ServiceRobot | it's a nice modifiable case that was used in production I think |
| 08:02.51 | bozonius | detha: eh, don't need much power for firewall router for a home system |
| 08:02.59 | ServiceRobot | when it was given to me it had windows 10 installed on it. wiped that shit fast |
| 08:03.13 | bozonius | if you are going to run the filters they provide, then you'd need more horses I think |
| 08:03.22 | bozonius | the filters slow things down a lot, I found |
| 08:03.26 | detha | bozonius: exactly. my home router is a 386 deskpro that refuses to die |
| 08:03.35 | bozonius | :D |
| 08:04.04 | bozonius | The only reason I stopped using the Compaq Presario 486 was because it ran extrmely hot and was starting to melt |
| 08:04.24 | bozonius | it made my bedroom extemely warm especially in summer even with the A/C on |
| 08:04.47 | ServiceRobot | that sounds pretty dangerous actually |
| 08:04.48 | bozonius | and to think I paid about $2500 for that box new... |
| 08:05.02 | ServiceRobot | did you clear the dust out? |
| 08:05.05 | bozonius | Maybe I needed to clean it out or something |
| 08:05.09 | bozonius | exactly |
| 08:05.10 | ServiceRobot | lol |
| 08:05.13 | bozonius | lol |
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| 08:05.59 | bozonius | if you saw the thing, you'd understand. It was an "all-in-one" which I think was Compaq's response to Apple's |
| 08:06.18 | bozonius | what was that called again? |
| 08:06.46 | bozonius | anyway, it had very little clearance inside or out |
| 08:07.00 | bozonius | tiny screen, low res |
| 08:07.07 | bozonius | though it was color... |
| 08:07.29 | bozonius | I maxed it out to the full 20MB of ram |
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| 08:07.44 | bozonius | (not kidding) |
| 08:08.06 | bozonius | and if you think that is funny, it only came with 4MB!!! |
| 08:08.57 | bozonius | oh, it was called the G3 (Apple) |
| 08:09.32 | bozonius | detha: As long as it works and doesn't run up your electric bill too badly, no reason not to let it run forever |
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| 08:11.27 | detha | bozonius: those things are fairly light on power, I've got a total of 7Mb/s on all outgoing links, so yeah. It works. It maxes out openvpn at about 40Mb/s though |
| 08:11.49 | detha | so vpn into wifi routers can be a tad slow |
| 08:11.52 | bozonius | what does your ISP provide though? |
| 08:12.34 | ServiceRobot | anyway, in the next couple of days I'll be setting up Devuan and praying nothing breaks |
| 08:12.34 | detha | there's 3 links, one 5Mb/s, one 2Mb/s, one 3g of varying slowness |
| 08:12.37 | bozonius | back when I used the compaq 486, I was only getting about 1Mb down (2005?) |
| 08:12.39 | ServiceRobot | see y'all |
| 08:12.50 | bozonius | see you ServiceRobot |
| 08:13.29 | bozonius | so even at 10Mbps, those 2 NICs on my compaq were actually much faster than anything I was getting from the net |
| 08:13.38 | bozonius | plenty fast enough |
| 08:14.43 | bozonius | today, that would be a huge bottleneck. Even if I put in 100Mbps NICs (I don't know, did they ever make 100BaseT for ISA cards?) it would still be a bottle neck now, since we get around 200Mbs down around here |
| 08:14.53 | bozonius | about 10-12 up usually |
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| 08:15.53 | bozonius | detha: Haven't tried VPN really. A few years ago, briefly, at home, but not seriously |
| 08:16.35 | bozonius | I should play with openvpn a bit... |
| 08:17.01 | detha | bozonius: anything wireless is automatically untrusted, so it gets a VPN on top of it |
| 08:17.23 | bozonius | I agree about wireless, which is why I avoid it at all costs |
| 08:17.43 | bozonius | I ran a cat 6 cable from my room to the Comcast router! |
| 08:17.59 | bozonius | not only more stable and trusty, but Waaaaaaay faster |
| 08:18.29 | bozonius | are you running wireless "ac" or still on "n"? |
| 08:18.39 | bozonius | multichannel? |
| 08:20.05 | bozonius | also, detha, both IPFire and Endian FW provide separate zones for hardwire and wireless |
| 08:20.22 | bozonius | you can have up to 4 zones (so called red, green, blue and orange) |
| 08:20.55 | bozonius | the blue and orange are for wireless and dmz, but I forget which is which now |
| 08:21.25 | bozonius | that isolates the wireless portion of the network from the rest of it |
| 08:29.27 | bozonius | time to reboot my host... later |
| 08:29.33 | detha | laters |
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| 12:59.53 | xrogaan | do you guys know if it is possible to request a backport? |
| 13:12.26 | golinux | xrogaan: I know it is possible to build and offer a backport. ;) |
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| 16:15.25 | _abc_ | SegmentSmack -clean kernel update for devuan already out? |
| 16:15.33 | _abc_ | *ascii |
| 16:27.59 | _abc_ | ?? |
| 16:33.32 | _abc_ | fsmithread not in? What is going on? Abandonware? ;) |
| 16:33.43 | _abc_ | DocScrutinizer05: here? |
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| 16:35.54 | _abc_ | references: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/07/segmentsmack/ |
| 16:38.19 | _abc_ | Debian already have a kernel out to mitigate this bug |
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| 16:45.18 | _abc_ | Is it too early for serious questions Wednesday? |
| 16:46.11 | MinceR | "Does it matter?" |
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| 17:01.08 | _abc_ | "no", what's your public IP, I would like to test the exploit on your machine now |
| 17:01.49 | _abc_ | MinceR: ^ |
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| 17:15.08 | djph | _abc_: 127.0.0.1; or if you prefer IPv6, ::1 |
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| 17:41.22 | _abc_ | djph: It was meant as a sarcastic joke. |
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| 17:41.49 | _abc_ | djph: erm, you do not have a cloak. /whois knows who you are by ip |
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| 18:01.11 | djph | _abc_: so was the 127... as for the cloak ... meh |
| 18:14.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | _abc_: hmm? |
| 18:15.54 | _abc_ | DocScrutinizer05: scroll back , there's an exploit against kernel 4.9+; ascii has that; debian has the patched kernel, what about devuan? |
| 18:15.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I see |
| 18:16.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | devuan using debian kernel |
| 18:16.25 | _abc_ | ok |
| 18:16.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a metadistro, you know? |
| 18:16.50 | _abc_ | no system contamination in the kernel? I thought kernel log daemon lives in it now |
| 18:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess there are no systemd specific patches needed in kernel and IP stack, so devuan==debian |
| 18:17.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not an expert, wait for the kernel guys |
| 18:19.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | I also guess when we need a kernel patch to keep systemd out, this will be the day Linux dies |
| 18:19.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | Linus** Torvalds |
| 18:19.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | linux too |
| 18:20.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | _abc_: many thanks for hollering anyway |
| 18:21.33 | _abc_ | DocScrutinizer05: https://thenewstack.io/systemd-vs-linux-kernel/ and many more |
| 18:23.31 | _abc_ | https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/ |
| 18:27.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | loooomg stories with old stuff. Nothing indicates Linus will allow systemd dependencies in kernel |
| 18:28.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least I can't see anything indicating that |
| 18:29.11 | furrywolf | I suspect that if you tried putting anything systemd into the kernel, he would explain to you exactly where you should insert it instead, using many four-letter words. |
| 18:29.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | Linus might imlement anti-systemd measures to kernel when he gets fed up with some particular nasty behavior but the kernel will not depend on systemd being present due to them |
| 18:29.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | furrywolf: exactly :-P |
| 18:31.49 | Ryccardo|A | doesn´t systemd have a text editor yet? |
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| 18:33.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | for Lennart: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjPlhb4f9P8 |
| 18:35.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | >> So take your meditations an' your preparations An' ram it up yer snout<< |
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| 18:37.50 | MinceR | didn't get the joke |
| 18:38.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, for me Lennart is the prottype of a snake oil doctor |
| 18:39.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | or was that about the text editor? I guess there's no joke in it |
| 18:44.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ was a joke ;-) Though I'm afraid a joke that will turn bitter soon |
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| 18:56.33 | MinceR | _abc_'s "joke" |
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| 19:03.55 | premoboss | i'm using devuan 2.0. i can not install vlc, apt report unmet dependange. even if i try to install dependances, no way to install. what is wrong with vlc on devuan? |
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| 19:16.23 | debdog | premoboss: can't install it here either. seems to be something wrong with a server/repo |
| 19:16.40 | debdog | Err http://deb.devuan.org//merged ascii-security/main i386 libavutil55 i386 7:3.2.12-1~deb9u1 |
| 19:16.40 | debdog | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:16.54 | premoboss | debdog, ok. nice to see is not my fault. |
| 19:17.20 | debdog | --- 185.183.113.129 ping statistics --- |
| 19:17.20 | debdog | 4 packets transmitted, 4 received, 0% packet loss, time 2998ms |
| 19:17.26 | debdog | server itself does respond |
| 19:18.21 | premoboss | if i try to install, i get error of unmet dependences |
| 19:19.19 | aggrora | premoboss: does it tell you which ones? |
| 19:19.44 | premoboss | vlc : Dipende: vlc-plugin-base (= 3.0.3-1-0+deb9u1) ma non sta per essere installato |
| 19:19.53 | premoboss | an many others after that |
| 19:20.03 | debdog | are these by chance libavutil55, libswresample2 and libavcodec57 |
| 19:20.32 | premoboss | shall i install those libs previously than vlc? |
| 19:20.54 | debdog | is using aptitude since it has more helpful error messages than apt-get. |
| 19:21.01 | debdog | never tried apt TBH |
| 19:21.03 | premoboss | libavutil55 is already installed |
| 19:21.38 | premoboss | whaty menas TBH? |
| 19:21.44 | debdog | to be honest |
| 19:22.04 | aggrora | I have had to install packages in a specific order sometimes to make it work. Like dependencis first yes. |
| 19:22.14 | premoboss | debdog, how do you install sithount apt-get? |
| 19:22.20 | premoboss | without* |
| 19:22.41 | debdog | like "aptitude install vlc" |
| 19:22.43 | MinceR | hm, i should try aptitude then, i'm sick of apt excuses for error messages |
| 19:22.51 | debdog | or "apt ...." |
| 19:22.53 | MinceR | "but it's not going to be installed" |
| 19:23.37 | premoboss | ok, go to install aptitude |
| 19:23.57 | debdog | here is my entire output: https://dpaste.de/1CLA/raw |
| 19:24.04 | debdog | no clue how to solve it though |
| 19:24.59 | premoboss | also aptitude has problems to install vlc |
| 19:25.03 | debdog | mayhap it's just a temporary issue |
| 19:25.16 | premoboss | vlc : Dipende: vlc-l10n (= 3.0.3-1-0+deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed |
| 19:25.34 | premoboss | vlc-plugin-base : Dipende: vlc-data (= 3.0.3-1-0+deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed |
| 19:25.42 | aggrora | are you able to install other packages? |
| 19:25.50 | debdog | premoboss: yes, but it might return a more helpful error message? what's the entire output? |
| 19:25.54 | premoboss | debdog, can you try aptitude install vlc to see if you get problems too? |
| 19:26.10 | debdog | premoboss: I did: https://dpaste.de/1CLA/raw |
| 19:26.16 | premoboss | then press "q" to refuse install. |
| 19:26.59 | premoboss | mmm that repo semms to fail. i use another one. |
| 19:27.17 | debdog | also, are backports involved? |
| 19:27.40 | premoboss | try deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main contrib non-free |
| 19:27.57 | premoboss | i activated also ascii-backport, yes |
| 19:28.24 | saptech | prembossm have you ran apt-get update? |
| 19:29.10 | premoboss | saptech, of course |
| 19:29.18 | saptech | are it should have addressed to debdog |
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| 19:36.20 | debdog | premoboss: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt "IMPORTANT NOTE: Devuan has planned to eventually discontinue the original set of Devuan mirrors available at auto.mirror.devuan.org and |
| 19:36.20 | debdog | {CC}.mirror.devuan.org. As a consequence, users are strongly encouraged to use the new set of mirrors at "deb.devuan.org" and "{CC}.deb.devuan.org"." |
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| 19:44.53 | premoboss | debdog, i changed the repos ,but vlc still cdoes not install |
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| 19:54.54 | debdog | yes |
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| 19:55.59 | debdog | but do you get the same error than I do? also, backports adds another layer which I am not familiar with, so I am probably unable to help |
| 19:56.06 | debdog | premoboss: ^ |
| 19:57.23 | premoboss | debdog, i have the same problem i had before, i have not the problem that you paste. |
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| 19:59.55 | debdog | without checking further I assume it might be an issue with version mismatch of backports vs. std. repo |
| 20:00.40 | premoboss | ok, you did also enough. thanks for your effort |
| 20:00.53 | premoboss | i wait some days and try again. |
| 20:01.20 | debdog | plus stick around, mayhap with more knowledge will chive in |
| 20:01.40 | debdog | hmm, chive is not the word I was looking for |
| 20:01.56 | debdog | *chime in |
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