| 00:20.13 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@208.53.50.136) |
| 00:20.13 | *** topic/#devuan is Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release | This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | off-topic conversation in #debianfork please | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
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| 01:35.35 | nullawk | I recently picked up some wifi adapters that are based on the atheros AR9271, ath9k_htc driver. If I understand correctly firmware-atheros is a non-free package, but ath9k_htc is 'libre' - I specifically have this card thinking it would be extra devuan compatible. https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb - I have a feeling I am suppose to modify the kernel and or modprobe something? |
| 01:39.13 | gnarface | did you install the firmware from non-free? |
| 01:40.25 | gnarface | yes, you may also have to modprobe the module |
| 01:40.45 | nullawk | Negative. I was trying to avoid touching that repository. |
| 01:40.55 | gnarface | for this device you'll probably need to |
| 01:41.03 | gnarface | but you can just turn it back off once you've added the firmware |
| 01:41.43 | gnarface | for wifi devices that have "optional" non-free firmware, usually they can only operate in unencrypted or wep mode without it. sometimes there is also a performance penalty |
| 01:42.07 | gnarface | the module itself IS in the stock kernel though |
| 01:42.19 | gnarface | it is open source, for whatever good that is |
| 01:42.23 | nullawk | I imagine that package also contains non-free drivers / blobs, even if I never load it I would prefer it not installed on the computer. A bit of a passion / learning project. |
| 01:42.43 | gnarface | uh |
| 01:42.50 | gnarface | no i'm pretty sure that package only has firmware bin files in it |
| 01:43.11 | gnarface | don't think of it as an alternate driver |
| 01:43.20 | gnarface | think of it as the key for the existing driver |
| 01:43.42 | gnarface | (it's probably actually a stack of firmwares for all their devices) |
| 01:45.29 | nullawk | Thank you so far gnarface. I figured it was a stack of firmwares for all their devices, free and non free, which is why they had to put it in the non-free repo. I have a feeling I should just get a different wifi adapter (ath5k??) that will load out of the box to keep from loading the non-free repository, or having to manually update the kernel everytime |
| 01:45.29 | infobot | nullawk: no worries |
| 01:46.00 | gnarface | wtf infobot? |
| 01:46.05 | gnarface | stay outta this |
| 01:46.15 | nullawk | xD |
| 01:46.16 | gnarface | i don't know what in that sentence triggered it |
| 01:46.19 | nullawk | Thank you |
| 01:46.35 | nullawk | maybe not. |
| 01:47.17 | gnarface | but yes, if you think this seems like a dirty way to subvert the intent of open source by claiming to release open source drivers but not really releasing all of the source and just hiding the main parts in a closed-source black box binary, yea we all see that too. |
| 01:48.00 | gnarface | and you're right, the only plausible fix that doesn't involve clean-room reverse-engineering or corporate espionage would be to choose hardware more carefully next time |
| 01:48.23 | gnarface | in general for wifi, i'd avoid atheros, broadcom, and intel |
| 01:48.33 | gnarface | if you're trying to avoid dependencies on non-free binary blobs |
| 01:49.13 | gnarface | i can't give you any good advice on wifi devices though |
| 01:49.26 | gnarface | i still try to use physical wires whenever possible |
| 01:50.14 | mtnman | heh my laptop's ethernet quit working the other day and now i'm relegated to wifi only. |
| 01:50.31 | gnarface | ouch |
| 01:50.44 | gnarface | it quit after an upgrade, or you think it fried? |
| 01:51.04 | mtnman | well i also have a usb-ethernet connection to the beaglebone |
| 01:51.17 | gnarface | fun |
| 01:51.26 | mtnman | slow |
| 01:51.26 | nullawk | I am exactly trying to avoid dependencies on non-free binary blobs. I completely agree on more research, and trust me, I thought I had. In fact I dont know how to find what you just told me other than figuring out that package is in the non-free repository and ALSO includes their libre drivers. I have been using hardwire exclusively for a long while and am ready to hit the road. |
| 01:52.16 | mtnman | fortunately usb wifi adapters are cheap these days |
| 01:52.51 | gnarface | yea i think d-link sells some 9$ usb a/b/g/n adapters that don't require firmware, don't they? |
| 01:53.00 | gnarface | i dunno how reliable or secure they are |
| 01:53.10 | gnarface | d-link isn't exactly known for quality |
| 01:53.38 | mtnman | i've had good luck with realtek but i don't know if their drivers are blob-free |
| 01:53.43 | nullawk | I mean, I got money to throw away on this |
| 01:54.05 | gnarface | i think realtek is all over the board, some of their devices require non-free firmware and some don't |
| 01:54.20 | gnarface | they seem to lend their chips to a lot of 3rd party vendors |
| 01:54.39 | nullawk | doesn't "less /proc/modules" list all the available modules for loading? |
| 01:54.41 | gnarface | then maybe those vendors make different decisions about the firmware |
| 01:55.20 | gnarface | nullawk: probably just the ones that are currently loaded. compare the output to `lsmod` to be sure |
| 01:55.54 | gnarface | nullawk: all the installed modules are in the kernel package and put into /lib/modules/[kernel version] on disk |
| 01:56.33 | gnarface | nullawk: try this: `find /lib/modules/ -iname 'ath*.ko'` |
| 01:56.34 | nullawk | I think ill have better luck looking at the available drivers, and working backwards to find a chipset / manufacturer. |
| 01:56.58 | gnarface | nullawk: or better yet: `find /lib/modules/ -iname '*.ko'` |
| 01:57.15 | gnarface | the kernel has pretty much everything included |
| 01:57.21 | gnarface | i almost never have to rebuild to add an ethernet driver |
| 01:57.24 | gnarface | however |
| 01:57.34 | gnarface | if you want to see the EXHAUSTIVE list, you'll have to actually open the kernel source |
| 01:57.42 | gnarface | run make menuconfig in it |
| 01:57.49 | gnarface | and then actually navigate to the network devices section |
| 01:58.13 | gnarface | its ugly but its the only way to get an accurate up-to-date list |
| 01:58.27 | gnarface | you can't trust web pages to be up to date on device support anymore |
| 01:58.42 | nullawk | well haha I just found the ath9k driver but I also just read on https://wikidevi.com/wiki/Atheros_AR9271 in Debian the firmware-atheros package includes files: /lib/firmware/ar9271.fw /lib/firmware/htc_9271.fw - Without these modprobe ath9k_htc does not create wlan0 device and dmesg shows: => Failed to load firmware |
| 01:59.02 | gnarface | heh, yea that is not hugely surprising to me |
| 01:59.17 | nullawk | dirty bastards |
| 01:59.44 | gnarface | honestly for now i would just bite down and install that one non-free firmware package |
| 02:00.04 | gnarface | and then just disable non-free again so as not to accidentally get other stuff from there during a future upgrade |
| 02:00.27 | gnarface | and then maybe i would also delete the firmwares for other devices, and just keep the two files this device needs |
| 02:00.52 | mtnman | and don't tell anyone!! |
| 02:00.53 | gnarface | but i fully support your reluctance to trust them even that much |
| 02:01.08 | gnarface | lol mtnman yea |
| 02:01.16 | gnarface | secrecy silence obedience :-p |
| 02:01.35 | nullawk | Nah. This is my freedom laptop. I will just closet these adapters. |
| 02:01.45 | mtnman | the first rule of using non-free... |
| 02:02.02 | gnarface | hmmm. who even is making the best fully free wifi devices these days? |
| 02:02.06 | gnarface | i realize i have no idea |
| 02:02.24 | gnarface | the last wifi device i actually liked was a pcmcia card |
| 02:02.25 | mtnman | i did a search and it wasn't readily apparent where to even look |
| 02:02.40 | gnarface | that's a good sign nobody knows |
| 02:02.43 | gnarface | unfortuantely |
| 02:02.49 | gnarface | *unfortunately |
| 02:02.56 | mtnman | heh i just went through some old hardware and found a pcmcia wifi card |
| 02:03.03 | gnarface | maybe someone in here has some anecdotes to share though |
| 02:03.11 | gnarface | anyone using wifi without binary blobs here? |
| 02:03.16 | mtnman | gnarface maybe try #hardware |
| 02:03.22 | gnarface | nah fuck those haters |
| 02:03.41 | mtnman | hmmm.... who's the hater?? |
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| 02:03.46 | gnarface | all they'll do is purposefully give you bad advice and then tell you that you live in your mom's basement |
| 02:03.57 | gnarface | seriously, |
| 02:04.00 | mtnman | actually i got some good help in there yesterday |
| 02:04.06 | gnarface | and it's ##hardware fyi for a good reason |
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| 02:04.22 | nullawk | to let you know where I'm at: I have ath5k cards that work full libre out of the box. They are usually bigger and always B/G, not N. It appears N (ath9k) requires the non-free. |
| 02:04.30 | gnarface | i'm not saying i didn't once get good advice from there too... after a gauntlet of verbal abuse and misdirection |
| 02:05.03 | gnarface | nullawk: that's very interesting... the B/G ones that work without the firmware... do they work for wpa2 encryption? |
| 02:05.09 | nullawk | Yup |
| 02:05.19 | gnarface | hmmm. good to know |
| 02:05.41 | gnarface | so wireless N may be under some sort of secret trade embargo towards linux |
| 02:05.47 | gnarface | like the HDMI thing |
| 02:06.01 | mtnman | gnarface i guess some abuse is the price one pays for help there |
| 02:06.44 | gnarface | mtnman: none of them are actually smart or experienced enough to deserve to treat people like that |
| 02:07.17 | gnarface | knowing ONE thing someone else doesn't, doesn't make you inherently better than that person |
| 02:07.29 | mtnman | gnarface the guy who helped me wasn't abusive but he did have a slightly condescending attitude. |
| 02:07.50 | mtnman | it was slight enough for me to mostly ignore it. |
| 02:08.07 | mtnman | and he knew what he was talking about. |
| 02:08.18 | gnarface | someone once helpfully warned me about over-volted RAM with a tone that was no more derogatory than appropriate, but he wasn't a regular there. |
| 02:08.52 | gnarface | once the regulars start to remember you though, they get clique-ish and mean |
| 02:09.13 | gnarface | they were actually busted down to ##hardware from #hardware over their misbehavior |
| 02:09.21 | gnarface | that's not the official reason, but i ... know things |
| 02:09.34 | mtnman | actually, now that i think about it wasn't #hardware but a different channel. hehe |
| 02:10.16 | gnarface | so the other things i'm having trouble finding drivers for in linux are to do with video and audio capture in HD |
| 02:11.00 | gnarface | it seems as though there's another one of these meta-trade-embargos on linux for component and HDMI video inputs, as well as digital audio |
| 02:11.30 | gnarface | outputs seem to be fine |
| 02:12.04 | gnarface | but finding a working driver for something above standard definition with a non-analog audio input is as near to impossible as i can estimate |
| 02:14.57 | mtnman | gnarface: the thing is that the media industry is behind it from what i've read. |
| 02:16.22 | mtnman | they don't want you to be able to decode an hdmi stream unless your device is drm'd |
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| 02:18.17 | nullawk | mtnman, gnarface. It is my understanding there is _no_ libre HDMI driver. It is one of the main issues with the Pi, wont even boot without it. |
| 02:18.42 | mtnman | nullawk that is what i was describing |
| 02:20.55 | nullawk | I am just curious how one can get even substandard video output if that is the case. It's my understanding HDCP hasnt been broken. |
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| 02:22.53 | nullawk | Anyways, I'll be in here but not active if anyone wants to chime in on a USB / PCI libre wifi - or a point in the right direction (ath5k usb that doesnt suck?) |
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| 02:24.19 | gnarface | woops |
| 02:24.24 | gnarface | not sure if you guys got all my messages |
| 02:24.28 | gnarface | i didn't get any responses |
| 02:24.38 | gnarface | seems like someone upstream of me didn't like my rant and decided to pull the plug on it... |
| 02:25.50 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 02:25.53 | nullawk | (02:11:51 AM) gnarface: but finding a working... |
| 02:25.54 | gnarface | maybe its not just me |
| 02:26.33 | gnarface | ok that was the last thing i said before i noticed it was down |
| 02:26.35 | gnarface | the rest was just testing |
| 02:26.42 | Centurion_Dan | gnarface... brightsign produce kit that has hdmi input... |
| 02:26.53 | gnarface | can you guys resolve debian.org right now? |
| 02:27.01 | gnarface | maybe there was just a massive internet outage not just me... |
| 02:27.18 | Centurion_Dan | https://www.brightsign.biz/digital-signage-products and they use debian on their kit... |
| 02:27.44 | gnarface | interesting, this one is new to me, thanks Centurion_Dan |
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| 02:28.30 | gnarface | Centurion_Dan: do you know if their driver for it is open source or not? |
| 02:28.39 | Centurion_Dan | a colleague that does work in AV was asking me to help him solve some problems with stream hd captured from hdmi |
| 02:28.53 | gnarface | or are they just using a debian backend with some proprietary in-house hardware and blobs? |
| 02:30.11 | Centurion_Dan | I don't know... uses a broadcom chipset... |
| 02:30.21 | gnarface | oh |
| 02:30.22 | gnarface | so yes, probably |
| 02:30.39 | gnarface | hmm, but if it works that would still be useful |
| 02:32.05 | Centurion_Dan | I have a sneaking suspicion that hdmi may be a simply a multi-channel serial protocol and it's possible that the hardware does bi-directional.... |
| 02:33.00 | Centurion_Dan | the underlying streams seem to be mpeg-ts encapsulated... |
| 02:44.41 | Centurion_Dan | gnarface: just a bit of web searching (duckduckgo) turns up hdmi framegrabber/capture cards are reasonably available and work with existing v4l2 in kernel drivers. |
| 02:45.09 | gnarface | Centurion_Dan: someone else told me that once and when i went to look, there was only vendors in the UK that would not ship to the USA |
| 02:45.29 | gnarface | i guess it's been a couple months since i looked |
| 02:45.40 | gnarface | but it was actually shockingly rare still |
| 02:45.49 | Centurion_Dan | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11985261 |
| 02:46.19 | *** join/#devuan cygEatWin (~cygEatWin@116.30.222.173) |
| 02:46.36 | cygEatWin | Hi, there~ |
| 02:46.46 | gnarface | hmmm, not brands i've heard of, but i'll look into them, thanks Centurion_Dan |
| 02:47.32 | Xenguy | uses cygwin at work, mostly for 'find' and 'grep' |
| 02:47.50 | gnarface | (i also wasn't aware that the uvcvideo driver may randomly support undocumented HDMI input devices - i thought that was only for USB webcams. in fact, i'm using it for USB webcams...) |
| 02:48.33 | cygEatWin | I have a question when using d1h: what's the substitute of anonscm.debian.org ? |
| 02:50.02 | Xenguy | IIRC KatolaZ knows about that stuff? |
| 02:51.02 | cygEatWin | for now, which git URL does d1h cache from ? |
| 02:51.40 | gnarface | is it something on git.devuan.org maybe? i don't actually know. |
| 02:53.38 | golinux | cygEatWin: Have you seen this? https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549 |
| 02:54.40 | cygEatWin | golinux: yes. that's where I konw d1h cache from the old debian git repo which is now deprecated. |
| 02:54.51 | cygEatWin | and they move to salsa.debian.org |
| 02:58.09 | golinux | I remember that now. anonscm has been deprecated but d1h hasn't been fixed to reflect that yet. |
| 02:59.58 | golinux | As Xenguy suggested, catch KatolaZ or you could file a bug at bugs.devuan.org (if one hasn't been submitted yet). |
| 03:00.43 | cygEatWin | okay. thanks, golinux |
| 03:01.07 | Centurion_Dan | I'm really pissed off with debians handling of anonscm... if it's moved they should have put in place a redirect to the new home - for the simple reason - all the VCS links in the package meta-data is now broken... |
| 03:01.29 | Centurion_Dan | shows how little debian cares.... |
| 03:01.47 | golinux | That would be one way to give us a headache. |
| 03:02.32 | golinux | And more work to do. |
| 03:03.15 | gnarface | we all knew it was inevitable |
| 03:03.33 | gnarface | their vandalism and hostility will increase in direct proportion to the rate our own user base increases |
| 03:03.38 | gnarface | *at least* |
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| 03:04.06 | gnarface | but something else interesting seems to be happening |
| 03:04.23 | golinux | yes . . ? |
| 03:04.42 | gnarface | i am seeing signs their own internal awareness of the inner workings of their own distro seems to be slipping |
| 03:05.06 | gnarface | they're not just taking out stuff they know we're using |
| 03:05.12 | gnarface | they're taking out stuff when they don't know what it's for |
| 03:05.25 | gnarface | which is a horribly bad default position |
| 03:05.38 | gnarface | suggests to me collective competence is slipping over there |
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| 03:06.33 | golinux | They have had a brain drain |
| 03:06.34 | gnarface | inferred promises of smooth transitioning from legacy versions and preservation of expected behaviors are being broken |
| 03:07.06 | gnarface | basically their community compact is being broken |
| 03:07.13 | gnarface | and it's not always clear they even realize it |
| 03:07.57 | gnarface | so yea, that's bad |
| 03:08.02 | gnarface | and not just for us and debian |
| 03:08.05 | gnarface | that's bad for the whole internet |
| 03:09.39 | golinux | Maybe that's the price to have a shiny, 'modern' desktop. |
| 03:10.26 | golinux | needs a stretch. |
| 03:29.36 | Centurion_Dan | well... my view, and nextimes view has always been that we have to plan for Devuan to become a fully independent distrobution, where we build all our packages and support them properly. Debian can't be trusted and it's increasingly obvious that we won't be able to rely on them. |
| 03:31.48 | Centurion_Dan | This is not what we wanted... it just appeared obvious already before jessie was released that Debian was fundamentally in trouble and the people who carried it through the tough times in the past had either left in dilusionment or been forced out... |
| 03:33.29 | Centurion_Dan | What scares me more, is the nay sayers, who say we can't become independent of Debian because "there is too much to do"... "we can't even provide security support for the few packages that we have already forked"... |
| 03:34.04 | gnarface | lol neither can ubuntu but that's not hurting them |
| 03:34.26 | Centurion_Dan | I think this is simply small minded thinking and ultimately it's destructive... |
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| 03:35.13 | gnarface | i agree, they lack vision |
| 03:35.27 | Centurion_Dan | that's coming from some people within our own Devuan development team... |
| 03:36.13 | gnarface | well Devuan does need more staff and while i admit i'm not helping in any measurable way, i think that's an entirely solvable problem |
| 03:37.39 | Centurion_Dan | we need to stop looking at the seemingly insurmountable mountain and work on one task at a time and only take in enough of the view to build a good strategy and series of tasks to ensure we are working on the most important problems first... |
| 03:41.33 | gnarface | maybe the most important problem should be training new developers |
| 03:42.19 | gnarface | or poaching them from other projects... |
| 03:44.05 | gnarface | the problem about deciding what is important first comes down to too many differences in what we're using it for |
| 03:44.06 | Leander | my question is: how will Devuan avoid the errements of Debian if it takes in many new developers and they have conflicting ideas about what's best for the distro? |
| 03:44.31 | gnarface | Leander: probably just fork some more |
| 03:45.06 | gnarface | it would be nice to get everyone on the same page though |
| 03:45.23 | gnarface | but if i had to list showstoppers for devuan for me, none of them would include the window manager, or firefox version, for example |
| 03:45.49 | gnarface | i'd care more about http, smtp, ssh, vpn, and such |
| 03:46.06 | gnarface | but for a lot of people here, a working out-of-the-box desktop is a bigger priority |
| 03:46.26 | gnarface | so its clear that if we can't get enough developers in time, some packages may slip in quality |
| 03:46.34 | gnarface | but i think thats already happening in Debian, frankly |
| 03:46.44 | gnarface | and i had some ideas about mitigating the problems, as a sort of transitional plan |
| 03:47.08 | gnarface | things like a grading system for the packages' respective maintenance quality, up-to-datedness and security |
| 03:47.13 | gnarface | (not just popularty) |
| 03:47.59 | gnarface | or maybe something more extreme if it became a critical issue; like a tiered temporary freeze on packages that were no longer getting many updates but for whom new updates were not known to be trustworthy enough to spend time reviewing yet |
| 03:48.47 | gnarface | but on the other hand, getting new developers organically is almost the slowest possible way to do it |
| 03:49.05 | gnarface | maybe the real effort should be put behind throwing a few mega parties |
| 03:49.12 | gnarface | that worked for Mozilla in the early days |
| 03:49.41 | gnarface | when they needed more community involvement, they just hired a DJ, rented a bar, and sold cheap drinks all night |
| 03:50.16 | gnarface | they did that yearly for a few years and it seemed to work in the sense that now Mozilla is a monster that also must be destroyed |
| 03:50.35 | gnarface | so finding staff doesn't seem to be their problem |
| 03:50.57 | gnarface | so as disgusting as it sounds, maybe all Devuan needs is some artificial hype |
| 03:51.16 | gnarface | i can think of a few other things that would generate realistic hype too |
| 03:51.24 | gnarface | gamers don't feel very at home in any linux distro |
| 03:52.02 | gnarface | adding some new tasks like "task-linux-gaming" could go a LONG way |
| 03:52.22 | gnarface | trying to get Steam up and running is WAAAAY harder than it should be |
| 03:53.22 | gnarface | even using the closed-source nvidia drivers to accelerate glxgears takes way too much knowledge of Nvidia's package layout in non-free for most new adopters |
| 03:53.54 | gnarface | there's simple things we could do to surpass all other distros in practical usefulness for the entertainment-minded |
| 03:54.31 | gnarface | things that have typically been scoffed at by other distros, more for idealogical reasons than practical ones |
| 03:57.10 | gnarface | puts the soapbox away and goes to dinner |
| 03:57.23 | Leander | yes, I very recently realised that my mpv didn't use hardware acceleration for some videos just because I didn't have some libva* or libvdpau* packages, and I can't even remember how I fixed it now |
| 04:07.43 | ivanshmakov | Given the GOG.COM well-known anti-DRM stance, Iâd very much rather have /that/ than Steam.âThen again, my favorite games are Emacs and GCC, and they already pose no problem for any decent GNU/Linux distribution. |
| 04:11.12 | Leander | that's exactly the question though: how pragmatic can we get to make Devuan more prominent? |
| 04:12.49 | Leander | I don't know a single windows gamer who doesn't have steam |
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| 04:24.21 | *** join/#devuan iv4nshm4kov (~user@2001:470:1f13:1eb:0:f:59d3:c600) |
| 04:24.23 | ivanshmakov | Leander: Another question is: should we?âIâm not as of yet sure that those coming to Devuan from Windows gaming are going to contribute much to the project. |
| 04:40.27 | golinux | Leander: I don't think that courting gamers would be a good move. It would be a more attractive option to offer a Devuan-Libre. Those would be the folks likely to contribute and appreciate what we're trying to do. |
| 04:43.27 | Leander | I don't have a clear opinion about that |
| 04:44.20 | nacelle | the gcc cheat codes dont always work like the did in other versions of gcc |
| 04:44.27 | nacelle | its a weird game to play |
| 04:45.18 | Leander | to me, it's still not clear who in Devuan takes the strategic decisions, and how |
| 04:46.37 | Leander | and I see it as the first issue, because without a clear and trusted leadership. how can the distro move forward? |
| 04:46.56 | Leander | and how can it avoid the pitfall that Debian seems to have fallen into? |
| 04:51.20 | *** join/#devuan AlexLikeRock (~AlexLikeR@unaffiliated/alexlikerock) |
| 04:51.46 | golinux | Leander: If you participated, you would understand how the process unfolds. |
| 04:53.59 | Leander | maybe this should be reflected to all users, but of course I can understand that by lack of manpower it wasn't done yet |
| 05:02.54 | golinux | Leander: Imagine a creative think tank where magic happens. There is no formal process to reflect. |
| 05:03.51 | Leander | back in the days, I was a translator for the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter (yes, Gentoo, and I stand by it), so I can imagine having a monthly (because things don't go as fast) newsletter to regularly update users about what is going on |
| 05:05.24 | golinux | Would you like to take that pon? |
| 05:05.30 | golinux | -p |
| 05:06.13 | golinux | Every attempt to get that going again has gone nowhere. |
| 05:06.47 | *** join/#devuan Vall (~durval@181-161-241-141.baf.movistar.cl) |
| 05:07.07 | Leander | ahah, that's not very encouraging, given that I have no experience as an editor or such position |
| 05:07.18 | golinux | The initial effort burned out very quickly. |
| 05:07.50 | golinux | If no one takes it on, it's not going to happen. |
| 05:08.49 | Leander | I think the timing can be right, because I'll be on leave until the end of August, which means a lot of spare time to read things and participate |
| 05:10.11 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan: dreaming large is easy. Getting things done requires people who do those things. |
| 05:10.31 | golinux | Leander: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/home |
| 05:10.49 | KatolaZ | the fact is that by keeping our feet to the ground we now have two Devuan releases |
| 05:11.04 | KatolaZ | if we had to rebuild and maintain the whole Debian, we wouldn't have any |
| 05:11.21 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 05:11.53 | golinux | But dreaming is so much more fun than all-nighters at the keyboard |
| 05:12.18 | golinux | :D |
| 05:12.43 | KatolaZ | we all would like to have grand visions |
| 05:13.18 | KatolaZ | in terms of manpower Debian is about 100 times larger than Devuan |
| 05:19.11 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan: we have been actually working at many more than one task at a time, even if the average across |
| 05:19.22 | KatolaZ | time is obviously not constant |
| 05:19.56 | KatolaZ | Leander: any help is welcome |
| 05:20.24 | KatolaZ | the best way to see something happen is to do it ;) |
| 05:21.18 | KatolaZ | and concerning steam and other stuff, my personal opinion is that (apart from it being not free software) it wouldn't be a major drive for masses of user to come to Devuan |
| 05:21.31 | KatolaZ | steam works on almost all the distros |
| 05:21.39 | KatolaZ | already |
| 05:21.59 | KatolaZ | you don't move masses of users just on one feature |
| 05:22.19 | KatolaZ | and if you do, you'll most probably loose them when the-next-cool-feature comes around |
| 05:23.04 | KatolaZ | IMHO |
| 05:23.07 | gnarface | well that's the logic Debian used, but then Ubuntu proved that you can move tons of people with just driver support out of the box |
| 05:23.16 | gnarface | not that you're wrong in principle |
| 05:23.30 | gnarface | we shouldn't have to bother with ungrateful windows refugees |
| 05:23.42 | gnarface | i just think its a missed opportunity to actually enlighten a few of them |
| 05:23.49 | gnarface | even if most of them will just bail for the next fad |
| 05:24.58 | gnarface | and i'd rather have GoG over Steam any day too, but the ball is in GoG's court on that one |
| 05:25.11 | KatolaZ | gnarface: 99.5% of the Ubuntu users don't give a toss to the init that their distro is running |
| 05:25.20 | gnarface | (and they're not passing it back, so comparatively, Valve looks very friendly) |
| 05:25.23 | KatolaZ | and 90% of them does not even know what an init is useful for |
| 05:25.38 | gnarface | i doubt Debian users are much different these days |
| 05:25.45 | KatolaZ | so |
| 05:25.59 | KatolaZ | why should they go for Devuan? |
| 05:26.06 | gnarface | so, i'm not mad at the users about that |
| 05:26.10 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 05:26.42 | KatolaZ | I am not mad at them either |
| 05:26.42 | gnarface | they should go for Devuan because in the long run its better for them intellectually, ethically, and logistically |
| 05:27.00 | KatolaZ | gnarface: and we explain it by supporting steam? |
| 05:27.02 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 05:27.04 | gnarface | you can't expect everyone who deserves to know that to be capable of knowing it without help |
| 05:27.16 | KatolaZ | gnarface: steam won't help them, IMHO |
| 05:27.36 | gnarface | well you're getting hung up on your prejudice against Valve here |
| 05:27.41 | KatolaZ | Devuan has already made the quite corageous move of including non-free firmware in the install media |
| 05:27.50 | gnarface | maybe i shouldn't have brought steam up as part of the example, it distracted you too much from the point of my statement |
| 05:28.06 | gnarface | its hardly a single point on the line of shit that is broken out of the box for sheer prejudice and nothing else |
| 05:28.08 | KatolaZ | gnarface: I don't have any clue of who or what Valve is |
| 05:28.15 | gnarface | they own Steam |
| 05:28.21 | KatolaZ | so I can't have any prejudice on them |
| 05:28.31 | KatolaZ | or on steam |
| 05:28.34 | gnarface | empirical evidence suggests otherwise |
| 05:28.45 | KatolaZ | my point is that a single package won't move masses |
| 05:28.54 | gnarface | did you miss my statement about the takss? |
| 05:28.57 | gnarface | *tasks?? |
| 05:29.01 | KatolaZ | especially if that single package is already provided by hundreds other distros |
| 05:29.08 | gnarface | it wasn't about a single package though |
| 05:29.09 | KatolaZ | maybe I missed id |
| 05:29.10 | KatolaZ | it |
| 05:29.25 | gnarface | it was about dozens of packages that need to be grouped manually that shouldn't have to be |
| 05:29.59 | gnarface | a nice side-effect would be Steam support but really you can just swap that statement out with [any commercial software, period] |
| 05:30.16 | gnarface | and [most the open-source games made this decade] |
| 05:31.14 | gnarface | if new users can get find that information easier for Ubuntu, they'll never know why its a crappy distro |
| 05:31.15 | KatolaZ | there is a lot up there gnarface, sorry |
| 05:31.24 | KatolaZ | :\ |
| 05:32.45 | KatolaZ | what do you refer to when you talk of "dozens of packags that need to be grouped"? |
| 05:33.34 | gnarface | all the steam dependencies, just for an example, that are different based on which video card you're using. that's a bewildering quest to find that information when it could just be a task meta-package |
| 05:34.03 | gnarface | and the only reason its not is because i guess there's a tradition against making task meta-packages that include non-free stuff? |
| 05:34.40 | gnarface | and like Leander mentioned, this affects basic multimedia functions like video playback just as badly |
| 05:34.57 | gnarface | since most cards now rely on some components of the commercial opengl drivers to accelerate HD video |
| 05:35.44 | KatolaZ | gnarface: there is currently no task-* package that includes non-free software |
| 05:36.10 | KatolaZ | it's not a matter of tradition |
| 05:36.18 | gnarface | Debian's stance on this has always been "eeeww, gamers are dirty! get out of open source and go back to windows!" and i feel like that's unnecessarily hostile and short-sighted |
| 05:36.28 | gnarface | and not only that |
| 05:36.31 | gnarface | REALLY easy for us to fix |
| 05:36.57 | KatolaZ | gnarface: do not blame me for what you think is Debian's stance :) |
| 05:37.07 | gnarface | i didn't until i started hearing you echo it |
| 05:37.20 | KatolaZ | gnarface: where have I echoed that? o_O |
| 05:37.24 | gnarface | frankly i'm a little disappointed by your response |
| 05:37.41 | KatolaZ | 07:21 < KatolaZ> and concerning steam and other stuff, my personal opinion is that (apart from it being not free software) it |
| 05:37.44 | KatolaZ | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:37.51 | KatolaZ | gnarface: ^^^^ this was my point |
| 05:38.13 | KatolaZ | please read the backlog |
| 05:38.18 | KatolaZ | I have nothing against gamers |
| 05:38.22 | KatolaZ | nothing at all :) |
| 05:38.22 | gnarface | oh man |
| 05:38.26 | gnarface | read YOUR backlog |
| 05:38.30 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 05:38.51 | gnarface | you go on to state that any people who we MIGHT pull in that way will just jump ship immediately |
| 05:39.03 | gnarface | for whatever other "new feature" appears on some other distro |
| 05:39.08 | KatolaZ | nono gnarface |
| 05:39.15 | KatolaZ | I am not saying that |
| 05:39.16 | gnarface | and i think that shows dimwitted prejudice and a lack of faith in yourself and us |
| 05:39.25 | KatolaZ | I am saying that supporting a single package won't save masses |
| 05:39.28 | KatolaZ | fullstop |
| 05:39.29 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 05:39.41 | gnarface | and you're missing my point if you thought i was suggesting that |
| 05:39.42 | KatolaZ | the rest of the derivation is yours, not mine |
| 05:39.50 | KatolaZ | then please clarify |
| 05:39.59 | gnarface | you think this is about steam support vs no steam support. |
| 05:40.03 | KatolaZ | nope |
| 05:40.11 | KatolaZ | it's avout focusing on one package |
| 05:40.14 | KatolaZ | one feature |
| 05:40.17 | gnarface | whereas the truth is "Steam" in this situation is more like a canary in the coal mine |
| 05:40.20 | KatolaZ | the "kille-feature" |
| 05:40.25 | gnarface | yea, you're not hearing me still |
| 05:40.30 | gnarface | you're still hung up on Steam |
| 05:40.34 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 05:40.36 | KatolaZ | again |
| 05:40.38 | KatolaZ | change the name |
| 05:40.41 | KatolaZ | same response |
| 05:40.48 | gnarface | its not just one package though we're talking about here |
| 05:41.04 | KatolaZ | gnarface: please clarify |
| 05:41.05 | KatolaZ | really |
| 05:41.20 | gnarface | ok let me try to boil it down as simple as possible |
| 05:42.18 | gnarface | its difficult to compose my thoughts because you've really derailed me with your apparent lack of knowledge about package dependencies |
| 05:42.28 | gnarface | how about i pose to you a counter-question |
| 05:42.42 | KatolaZ | gnarface: no, please clarify your point |
| 05:42.48 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 05:42.50 | KatolaZ | I haven't derailed you o__ |
| 05:42.57 | gnarface | Steam has dependencies |
| 05:43.00 | gnarface | we can agree on that, right? |
| 05:43.05 | KatolaZ | any package has |
| 05:43.07 | KatolaZ | yes |
| 05:43.07 | gnarface | good |
| 05:43.19 | gnarface | any package can have some dependencies that are shared with other packages, right? |
| 05:43.31 | KatolaZ | ... |
| 05:43.41 | gnarface | right?! |
| 05:43.51 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 05:43.55 | gnarface | ok |
| 05:43.56 | gnarface | good |
| 05:44.00 | KatolaZ | a library can be used by many packages... |
| 05:44.05 | KatolaZ | so |
| 05:44.20 | gnarface | some packages then can have dependencies that are the same, or a superset of other packages' dependencies, right? |
| 05:44.44 | KatolaZ | that's pretty unusual, but can happen... |
| 05:44.49 | gnarface | you at least admit that is theoretically possible, ok good |
| 05:44.52 | gnarface | here's the problem |
| 05:45.04 | gnarface | you're wrong in thinking that it is unusual |
| 05:45.12 | gnarface | unless you misunderstood the word "superset" |
| 05:45.17 | KatolaZ | stop gnarface |
| 05:45.36 | KatolaZ | if you install all the possible packages in the repos, that is definitely a superset of all the dependencies... |
| 05:45.49 | gnarface | no no no no |
| 05:45.54 | gnarface | now you're stopping me before i'm getting to the point |
| 05:46.00 | KatolaZ | do you have a concrete example? |
| 05:46.05 | KatolaZ | ok sorry |
| 05:46.06 | gnarface | Steam? |
| 05:46.07 | KatolaZ | please go on |
| 05:46.08 | gnarface | ffs |
| 05:46.12 | KatolaZ | yes |
| 05:46.18 | KatolaZ | let's talk about steam, if you like |
| 05:46.18 | gnarface | steam |
| 05:46.19 | gnarface | firefox |
| 05:46.20 | gnarface | glxgears |
| 05:46.25 | gnarface | mplayer |
| 05:46.26 | KatolaZ | (but don't blame me :)) |
| 05:46.26 | gnarface | mpv |
| 05:46.29 | gnarface | audacious |
| 05:46.36 | gnarface | do you want me to just list every multimedia program ? |
| 05:46.43 | gnarface | everything that depends on sdl or opengl? |
| 05:46.47 | gnarface | does that make sense yet? |
| 05:46.54 | KatolaZ | what? |
| 05:47.06 | KatolaZ | that they depend on sdl or opengl? |
| 05:47.16 | KatolaZ | yes |
| 05:47.19 | KatolaZ | they might |
| 05:47.22 | KatolaZ | or they do |
| 05:47.26 | KatolaZ | keep going |
| 05:47.49 | KatolaZ | (and if they do, those deps are listed in the corresponding package) |
| 05:47.54 | gnarface | i'm asserting that Steam's client and various library of games' dependencies are a superset of pretty much MOST of the multimedia productivity and entertainment programs, closed or open-source, on Linux |
| 05:48.12 | gnarface | if you can't get Steam to work with opengl, probably glxgears and firefox aren't able to use it either |
| 05:48.34 | KatolaZ | the latter one is probably speculation, though :) |
| 05:49.11 | gnarface | no, i do this a lot so it's not speculation. i know what i'm talking about here. i know how much trouble this is to set up (almost none) and how much trouble it is to find the information on how to set it up (damn near impossible without a Sherpa guide) and i'm just asserting we can just bundle some of that stuff into a task |
| 05:49.13 | KatolaZ | but go on please |
| 05:49.29 | KatolaZ | gnarface: then put ut a webpage |
| 05:49.34 | KatolaZ | with instructions |
| 05:49.39 | KatolaZ | get feedback from the users |
| 05:49.43 | gnarface | already too much work and those exist |
| 05:49.56 | KatolaZ | put together this "meta-package" |
| 05:49.56 | gnarface | there's no reason there can't be non-free tasks too |
| 05:50.00 | KatolaZ | have users using it |
| 05:50.03 | KatolaZ | and testing it |
| 05:50.19 | gnarface | there'd need to be realistically probably 3 |
| 05:50.24 | KatolaZ | gnarface: the reason is that non-free stuff is not part of the distro |
| 05:50.28 | gnarface | one for AMD, one for Nvidia, and one for Intel |
| 05:50.29 | KatolaZ | no gnarface |
| 05:50.48 | KatolaZ | there would need to be one for any specific hardware conf |
| 05:50.50 | gnarface | aren't tasks just meta-packages though? can't tasks go in non-free though? |
| 05:50.52 | KatolaZ | if it were that simple |
| 05:50.59 | KatolaZ | three sets of instructions would have been enough |
| 05:51.01 | gnarface | there's only 3 base hardware configurations relevant here |
| 05:51.11 | KatolaZ | and you said that it varies a lot across different hw configs |
| 05:51.34 | KatolaZ | gnarface: if you want that task, work on it please |
| 05:51.36 | KatolaZ | I am serious |
| 05:51.51 | gnarface | i thought you were just pissing on it and trivializing the idea though? |
| 05:51.56 | KatolaZ | if there are enough people interested on it, please do it |
| 05:52.06 | gnarface | but then we'll get a bunch of users you hate |
| 05:52.17 | KatolaZ | I am triviliasing the idea that one can ask for anything and whining if it is not done by *others* |
| 05:52.33 | KatolaZ | gnarface: o_O |
| 05:52.52 | KatolaZ | I am not capable of hating anybody man... :\ |
| 05:53.19 | gnarface | you do seem ready to leave the unindoctrinated out in the cold |
| 05:53.26 | KatolaZ | I am fighting to get Devuan as much inclusive as possible |
| 05:53.31 | gnarface | if that's not hate i don't know what is |
| 05:53.49 | KatolaZ | I don't run a DE and I have helped a lot people wanting to include elogind and other stuff to support DEs |
| 05:54.01 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 05:54.10 | gnarface | oh wow you don't even use a linux desktop?? |
| 05:54.16 | KatolaZ | gnarface: you are shooting the wrong bird mate |
| 05:54.23 | KatolaZ | I use xmonad |
| 05:54.27 | gnarface | yes, i realized i'm having the conversation with the wrong person here |
| 05:54.30 | KatolaZ | if that is of any interest to you |
| 05:54.48 | KatolaZ | I am just saying, if you want something to happen, work for it |
| 05:54.59 | KatolaZ | waiting for others to do that won't lead anywhere |
| 05:55.42 | KatolaZ | and please, read again what I have said tomorrow. go through it and you will not find any hate or prejudice |
| 05:56.06 | KatolaZ | but please, don't ask me to work on something I don't have a clue about |
| 05:56.08 | gnarface | that's a fair statement, now i understand that you thought i was asking you for help with something you don't give a shit about. that's where our miscommunication happened. i was offering my help with something it seemed obvious was needed. |
| 05:56.22 | KatolaZ | great gnarface |
| 05:56.26 | KatolaZ | please help with that then |
| 05:56.29 | gnarface | and i met INSTANT resistance and from you |
| 05:56.33 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 05:56.35 | KatolaZ | resistance? |
| 05:56.37 | gnarface | and you failed to even read my whole statement |
| 05:56.38 | gnarface | yea |
| 05:56.38 | KatolaZ | oh lord |
| 05:56.43 | KatolaZ | I said, go for it |
| 05:56.45 | KatolaZ | do it |
| 05:56.51 | KatolaZ | put it together |
| 05:56.54 | KatolaZ | make it real |
| 05:56.54 | gnarface | you wanted to rant on about how Steam will bring hordes of freeloaders and nothing of value |
| 05:56.56 | *** join/#devuan Vall (~durval@181-161-241-141.baf.movistar.cl) |
| 05:57.08 | KatolaZ | gnarface: my point was not about steam man |
| 05:57.09 | KatolaZ | again |
| 05:57.18 | KatolaZ | I have tried to explain it several times |
| 05:57.21 | gnarface | without realizing that getting Steam working is a super-set for getting nearly everything working |
| 05:57.32 | gnarface | like EVERYTHING |
| 05:57.33 | KatolaZ | gnarface: for some definition of "working" man |
| 05:57.41 | gnarface | from a desktop-users perspective |
| 05:57.46 | gnarface | yea |
| 05:57.49 | gnarface | working |
| 05:58.05 | KatolaZ | gnarface: we don';t have that hordes of Devuan desktop users moaing about their desktops being non-functional |
| 05:58.28 | KatolaZ | so maybe you should also consider that what is "right" for you, might not be even a need for others |
| 05:58.29 | gnarface | no of course not, we have about 2-3 a week |
| 05:58.32 | KatolaZ | I am just saying :) |
| 05:58.52 | KatolaZ | gnarface: and they whine about steam, probably :) |
| 05:58.55 | KatolaZ | which is fair |
| 05:59.10 | KatolaZ | given that probably there are 40-50k Devuans out there |
| 05:59.13 | KatolaZ | maybe more |
| 05:59.17 | gnarface | we get a solid 2-3 a week rage-quitting after fumbling around with video driver support in general. |
| 05:59.28 | KatolaZ | ok gnarface |
| 05:59.35 | KatolaZ | if you are willing to help on that, please do |
| 05:59.45 | gnarface | Debian has always been dismissive of those people and i don't think its smart |
| 05:59.46 | KatolaZ | but don;t expect others to do it for you ;) |
| 05:59.56 | gnarface | my shit already works dude! |
| 05:59.58 | KatolaZ | gnarface: have you read what I have been saying? |
| 06:00.02 | KatolaZ | oh ok |
| 06:00.05 | KatolaZ | then problem solved :( |
| 06:00.13 | gnarface | yea and you're still really looking down from what you think is a high perch above me and i don't like it |
| 06:00.16 | KatolaZ | my shit would work on Debian as well |
| 06:00.30 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 06:00.45 | gnarface | how's that relevant to the conversation? |
| 06:00.54 | gnarface | i never suggested it wouldn't |
| 06:01.03 | KatolaZ | that I could avoid to contribute a little to Devuan |
| 06:01.12 | KatolaZ | if I was only looking at what works for me |
| 06:01.14 | KatolaZ | :\ |
| 06:01.40 | KatolaZ | final statement: if you want something to happen, make it happen |
| 06:01.45 | gnarface | yea, so why do you think that is what i'm talking about here? i still get the picture that you think i need help installing nvidia drivers and that's why i'm asking for this task |
| 06:01.55 | KatolaZ | nope gnarface |
| 06:02.02 | KatolaZ | I know you don't need that help |
| 06:02.10 | KatolaZ | you are the one who helps people with that here |
| 06:02.19 | gnarface | whereas we had an earlier conversation about gathering man power and i was merely suggesting some things i knew Debian would never try to accomplish that |
| 06:02.29 | KatolaZ | gnarface: this is not Debian |
| 06:02.31 | KatolaZ | it's Devuan |
| 06:02.38 | KatolaZ | I am saying, get your knowledge to work |
| 06:02.40 | gnarface | one of those things would be to not leave gamers out in the cold, but right now we still do. |
| 06:02.42 | iv4nshm4kov | AIUI, both Debian and Devuan are, first and foremost, a bunch of unpaid volunteers.âWhen they get interested in something â phylology, astrophysics, Steam â they make it happen.âWhen not â well, you get from them about as much as youâve paid for. |
| 06:02.43 | KatolaZ | make it available to others |
| 06:02.56 | KatolaZ | do something |
| 06:03.09 | KatolaZ | but waiting for others to do something it's not gonna work |
| 06:03.40 | KatolaZ | I don't want to leave gamers in the cold |
| 06:03.41 | gnarface | if i were to submit the very first non-free task .deb to devuan, what are the chances you'd actually let it go in the distro? |
| 06:03.51 | KatolaZ | gnarface: make it work first |
| 06:03.52 | iv4nshm4kov | gnarface can be one of these volunteers.âOr not.âItâs what software freedom is all about. |
| 06:04.18 | KatolaZ | I started working on the minimal live without knowing that it would have been accepted as one of the official images |
| 06:04.22 | KatolaZ | I just worked on it |
| 06:04.25 | KatolaZ | for about one year |
| 06:04.31 | KatolaZ | getting feedback |
| 06:04.34 | KatolaZ | improving it |
| 06:04.44 | KatolaZ | making it work |
| 06:04.55 | KatolaZ | and then it was felt that it was a useful addition |
| 06:05.03 | KatolaZ | it's really that easy |
| 06:05.16 | KatolaZ | I didn't expect any of that to happen |
| 06:05.25 | KatolaZ | I was just scratching a personal itch |
| 06:06.00 | gnarface | my intentions are more altruistic than that |
| 06:06.00 | iv4nshm4kov | KatolaZ: So, it boils down to Will and Presentation?â(SCNR.) |
| 06:06.09 | KatolaZ | gnarface: do it |
| 06:06.13 | KatolaZ | make it happen |
| 06:06.25 | KatolaZ | if it has value, it will fly |
| 06:06.30 | KatolaZ | in whatever form |
| 06:06.50 | KatolaZ | iv4nshm4kov: it boils down to will, IMHO |
| 06:06.52 | gnarface | so you say, but right now you're leaving me with the impression you're gonna 90% certainly say it has no value without even trying it |
| 06:07.04 | KatolaZ | gnarface: I haven't said that |
| 06:07.10 | KatolaZ | and I am pretty bored of your attitude |
| 06:07.24 | KatolaZ | you can keep making any retro-thinking |
| 06:07.27 | KatolaZ | that won't hep |
| 06:07.33 | iv4nshm4kov | KatolaZ: If you fail to present your work as useful to the community, it has little chance to be accepted, IMO. |
| 06:07.34 | gnarface | *MY* attitude? |
| 06:07.36 | KatolaZ | I am *encouraging* you |
| 06:07.40 | gnarface | *MY* retro-thinking? |
| 06:07.41 | KatolaZ | can you see that? |
| 06:07.45 | gnarface | you're dismissing me |
| 06:07.50 | KatolaZ | I am *encouraging* you to *contribute* |
| 06:07.51 | iv4nshm4kov | KatolaZ: But I was just referencing a rather well-known book. |
| 06:08.18 | KatolaZ | gnarface: this is silly... where I am dismissing you? o_O |
| 06:08.40 | gnarface | you just said you were pretty bored of my attitude |
| 06:08.51 | KatolaZ | yes because it leads nowhere |
| 06:08.57 | KatolaZ | go do the damn thing :) |
| 06:09.01 | KatolaZ | make it happen |
| 06:09.02 | gnarface | and that's not the only dismissive statement you've met my suggestions with |
| 06:09.15 | KatolaZ | instead of saying "oh, but you won't like it" |
| 06:09.40 | KatolaZ | go for it |
| 06:09.42 | KatolaZ | do it |
| 06:09.44 | KatolaZ | make it happen |
| 06:09.46 | gnarface | dude you shit right on my head and made me re-explain my argument repeatedly |
| 06:10.03 | KatolaZ | gnarface: your argument won't get a task-package done |
| 06:10.04 | gnarface | if you think that closing with "fine go make it happen" is encouraging after THAT ... |
| 06:10.08 | KatolaZ | only your work will |
| 06:10.15 | KatolaZ | this is a fact |
| 06:10.23 | gnarface | here's the problem |
| 06:10.24 | KatolaZ | you might not like it |
| 06:10.37 | KatolaZ | but this is how things happen |
| 06:10.40 | gnarface | you're STILL arguing with a cartoon interpretation of me |
| 06:10.55 | KatolaZ | gnarface: I am not interpreting anything, and even less you |
| 06:10.58 | KatolaZ | it's not about you |
| 06:11.05 | KatolaZ | or about me |
| 06:11.10 | gnarface | it is, right now |
| 06:11.16 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 06:11.17 | gnarface | right now, this is about YOU and ME |
| 06:11.19 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 06:11.37 | KatolaZ | shall we have a proper 15th century duel at dawn then? :D |
| 06:12.31 | KatolaZ | I can just tell you that every single thing that has happened in Devuan in the last four years has happened because somebody has cared about it |
| 06:12.34 | KatolaZ | and made it happen |
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| 06:13.01 | gnarface | next time lead with "i don't care about that but its fine if you do" |
| 06:13.11 | gnarface | instead of all the rest of the derogatory bullshit |
| 06:13.38 | KatolaZ | gnarface: please cite where I have been "derogatory" or said "bullshit" |
| 06:13.44 | gnarface | no |
| 06:13.47 | gnarface | i'm sure you know very well |
| 06:13.51 | KatolaZ | or avoid to make sush statement |
| 06:14.08 | KatolaZ | because it does not let you shine at all :) |
| 06:14.10 | gnarface | no, i'm done arguing in circles with you, you've made your point clear enough. |
| 06:14.16 | KatolaZ | great |
| 06:14.19 | KatolaZ | I won't add more |
| 06:14.20 | KatolaZ | :) |
| 06:14.25 | gnarface | btw just for reference |
| 06:14.31 | KatolaZ | luckily the backlog is public :) |
| 06:14.33 | KatolaZ | HND |
| 06:14.35 | gnarface | all last 5 lines were obviously derogatory |
| 06:14.45 | gnarface | seriously |
| 06:14.55 | gnarface | i didn't bring up steam to offend you |
| 06:15.07 | gnarface | but i obviously did and you felt the need to retalliate |
| 06:15.11 | KatolaZ | gnarface: there is nothing you can do to offend me |
| 06:15.15 | KatolaZ | nothing at all |
| 06:15.18 | gnarface | now you're lying |
| 06:15.24 | gnarface | but we're also off topic |
| 06:15.33 | KatolaZ | yes, please kick me out :) |
| 06:15.46 | gnarface | oh wow, you really DO need to get the last word in, don't you |
| 06:15.47 | gnarface | ? |
| 06:15.52 | gnarface | wtf is your problem today anyway? |
| 06:16.14 | KatolaZ | it's nothing of your business mate :) |
| 06:16.24 | gnarface | than STOP TAKING IT OUT ON ME |
| 06:16.38 | gnarface | you make it everyone's business when you pull this |
| 06:17.15 | KatolaZ | o_O |
| 06:17.21 | gnarface | you've not only trivialized my idea, you went further by making it personal |
| 06:17.25 | gnarface | that's ALL oh you |
| 06:17.29 | gnarface | *on you |
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| 06:17.39 | KatolaZ | gnarface: keep going if you like |
| 06:17.47 | gnarface | would you enjoy that? |
| 06:24.32 | gnarface | well, one thing is for sure, that's not gonna be a good way to attract new help |
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| 08:10.20 | Centurion_Dan | what is going on??? |
| 08:10.51 | Centurion_Dan | I step away and I miss all the fun?? |
| 08:12.01 | Centurion_Dan | KatolaZ, you really seem to take offence far to easily - I've never said we need to build everything now..... but I |
| 08:13.28 | Centurion_Dan | will continue to press the point that we do need to have a vision... not a fanciful dream, but real vision and think beyond just the bare minimum required to get the next release out. |
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| 08:16.35 | Centurion_Dan | We need to realise that Debian might not be around next release... and if it is, it will require more work to remain tied to Debian's packages... this will continue... sometime it may not be possible to continue to use Debian's packages, so we need vision, we need to plan for that eventuality rather then just hoping Debian won't break too much for us for the next release. |
| 08:17.38 | Centurion_Dan | KatolaZ, you've done very well to lead the push to get ascii over the line... |
| 08:19.54 | Centurion_Dan | but we need to be always looking forward and not simply dealing with the obstacles debian developers throw our way... and the next release is only part of that picture... |
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| 08:24.35 | KatolaZ | Centurion_Dan: I haven't taken any offence :) |
| 08:24.59 | KatolaZ | I just made the point that "pressing" for something is not enough for that something to happen |
| 08:25.03 | KatolaZ | and we know that very well |
| 08:25.11 | KatolaZ | I really would like to have Devuan independent from DEbian |
| 08:25.22 | KatolaZ | but I realise it is not possible in the immediate future |
| 08:25.44 | KatolaZ | I can keep working towards that goal, but the immediate future is working on beowulf |
| 08:25.59 | KatolaZ | and putting in place the experimental/unstable/testing/stable pipeline |
| 08:26.13 | KatolaZ | that alone will require a lot of work |
| 08:26.23 | KatolaZ | having a vision is fundamental |
| 08:26.33 | KatolaZ | but then we need people who actually implement that vision a |
| 08:26.37 | KatolaZ | and *do* things |
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| 12:05.56 | cr1mson_king | Hi, I couldn't find a wiki page about sysvinit, how to enable, disable, start, stop... |
| 12:07.35 | fsmithred | cr1mson_king, 'man update-rc.d' |
| 12:08.07 | cr1mson_king | fsmithred, thanks |
| 12:08.11 | fsmithred | you can also use the service command |
| 12:08.19 | fsmithred | for start|stop|restart |
| 12:08.58 | cr1mson_king | 'service apache2 start' for example ? |
| 12:09.04 | fsmithred | yes |
| 12:09.39 | fsmithred | or /etc/init.d/apache2 start |
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| 13:30.15 | FlibberTGibbet | silly question perhaps. have just set up a local dns server (bind9). all good using it over eth0 from local clients. but how do i prevent the laptop from querying that local IP when i'm connected to someone else's lan? |
| 13:30.29 | FlibberTGibbet | ip address, should have said |
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| 13:31.59 | KatolaZ | FlibberTGibbet: is the DS server on the laptop? |
| 13:32.05 | KatolaZ | s/DS/DNS |
| 13:32.13 | KatolaZ | oh no |
| 13:32.25 | KatolaZ | wait |
| 13:32.30 | KatolaZ | it's on a local serve |
| 13:32.32 | KatolaZ | server |
| 13:32.34 | KatolaZ | on your LAN |
| 13:32.46 | KatolaZ | ow do you configure the DNS on your laptop? |
| 13:32.50 | KatolaZ | DCHP? |
| 13:35.42 | FlibberTGibbet | the dns server is on a pi |
| 13:36.02 | FlibberTGibbet | laptop uses dhcp |
| 13:36.46 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 13:36.57 | KatolaZ | does the laptop get the DNS stuff from the dhcp server? |
| 13:37.10 | FlibberTGibbet | ah. |
| 13:37.14 | KatolaZ | or you set it up manually in resolc.conf? |
| 13:37.19 | KatolaZ | ~resolv.conf |
| 13:37.24 | FlibberTGibbet | i put the dns server directly into resolv.conf on the laptop |
| 13:37.38 | KatolaZ | then you have answered yourself ;) |
| 13:37.42 | FlibberTGibbet | heh :) |
| 13:38.04 | FlibberTGibbet | yes, so remove it from resolv.conf and add the nameserver on the dhcp server settings... |
| 13:38.17 | FlibberTGibbet | d'oh |
| 13:38.18 | KatolaZ | yes, may be an option |
| 13:38.31 | KatolaZ | normally the DHCP server provides a DNS server |
| 13:39.06 | FlibberTGibbet | well, currently the dhcp server is my router, so i could set it there and it's good for all automatically configured clients |
| 13:39.16 | KatolaZ | yep |
| 13:39.38 | KatolaZ | this is how pretty much any other LAN you will connect to is configured to work |
| 13:39.57 | KatolaZ | you get a DNS server via DHCP |
| 13:39.58 | FlibberTGibbet | indeed. had forgotten doing exactly that at work in the old days :) |
| 13:40.49 | FlibberTGibbet | needs to eat more omega 3 to boost the memory... |
| 13:41.25 | FlibberTGibbet | thanks anyway, KatolaZ |
| 13:43.06 | KatolaZ | haven't done much FlibberTGibbet :D |
| 13:43.15 | KatolaZ | I should get omega3 as well |
| 13:43.18 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 13:46.49 | FlibberTGibbet | sometimes a reminder of the obvious is the biggest help! |
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| 16:44.45 | james1138_ | Hello all. The eariler tips about Whisker menu worked after all. Thanks! New question. For some reason Kodi jumps to maximum volume when first starting up. Other apps like RadioTray do not. Is this a Kodi issue or PulseAudio issue? |
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| 17:18.10 | holla_ | james1138_: 1. try to toggle 'flat-volumes' in '/etc/pulse/daemon.conf' -- if that doesn't help, try to run without pulse: 'pasuspender kodi' |
| 17:18.55 | james1138_ | I shall give that a try here later today. Thanks Holla |
| 17:20.47 | james1138_ | I just looked now and it is set to "yes". Holla... should it be "no"? |
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| 18:04.37 | xrogaan | so the ntp thing gets shut down with the network, but there is no provision for it and thus try to restart. |
| 18:05.39 | xrogaan | there is a if-up.d/ntpdate but no if-down |
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| 18:09.08 | fsmithred | xrogaan, ntpdate is a one-shot deal |
| 18:09.31 | xrogaan | I remember reading something about that, yes. |
| 18:09.41 | fsmithred | I usually just run it from command line when I want to calibrate |
| 18:09.50 | fsmithred | at home, that is |
| 18:09.51 | xrogaan | by the way, there is a bootlogd but it doesn't log shutdowns? |
| 18:10.05 | fsmithred | I don't think so |
| 18:11.45 | fsmithred | there's some shutdown info in /var/log/messages |
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| 18:43.08 | xrogaan | what I get during shutdown is this: WARNING: invoke-rc.d called during shutdown sequence\n enabling safe mode: initscript policy layer disabled |
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| 18:50.22 | xrogaan | it just triggers me a bit. |
| 18:51.45 | xrogaan | oh, I'm not alone. https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2126 |
| 18:51.47 | xrogaan | yay |
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| 20:26.26 | mtnman | help |
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| 20:53.44 | james1138 | I resolved the volume issue with pulseaudio. I just turned it off and use ALSA - https://kodi.wiki/view/PulseAudio/HOW-TO:_Disable_PulseAudio_and_use_ALSA_(without_removing_PulseAudio)_for_Ubuntu |
| 20:54.41 | james1138 | ...and install Volume Icon - https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=volumeicon |
| 20:55.29 | james1138 | Things are A LOT Better. No app goes straight to max volume. Nice especially with headset. |
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| 21:58.48 | bozonius | james1138: :) I got rid of pulse everywhere and I also feel better these days |
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| 22:05.38 | fsmithred | We could start a 12-step program |
| 22:06.38 | golinux | bozonius: How are you getting FF to play audio without it? Did you do the apulse thing? |
| 22:06.47 | bozonius | step 1: Admit to yourself that systemd, pulseaudio, and even avahi are not really helping you. |
| 22:07.16 | bozonius | golinux: Yes, in some cases, apulse is needed. |
| 22:07.34 | fsmithred | not needed with ff-esr in ascii |
| 22:07.58 | bozonius | fsmithred: Some versions of ff are OK without apulse or pulse |
| 22:08.08 | bozonius | (agreeing) |
| 22:08.18 | golinux | True. I thought you were playing with Beowulf. |
| 22:08.37 | bozonius | I am... or was, anyway. I haven't played with sound there yet. |
| 22:08.49 | golinux | And had encountered |
| 22:08.59 | bozonius | I was only commenting on james1138 comment |
| 22:09.03 | golinux | the end of FF as we've known it |
| 22:09.31 | bozonius | omg... what new torture are we in for with ff |
| 22:09.35 | bozonius | ? |
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| 22:10.09 | golinux | pulseaudio will be required. |
| 22:10.19 | bozonius | not if you use apulse |
| 22:10.35 | golinux | Yes. I was wondering if you'd done that. |
| 22:10.41 | bozonius | no, sorry. |
| 22:10.48 | bozonius | I could try it... |
| 22:10.59 | fsmithred | please do. I'm not sure if it works. |
| 22:11.06 | bozonius | np |
| 22:11.06 | fsmithred | what version of ff are you using? |
| 22:11.12 | bozonius | where? |
| 22:11.16 | bozonius | beowulf? |
| 22:11.17 | fsmithred | in beowulf |
| 22:11.25 | bozonius | uh... not sure. Let me look |
| 22:11.38 | golinux | I keep an eye out for an apulse howto. |
| 22:11.39 | bozonius | prob whatever comes with it, and any updates |
| 22:12.12 | fsmithred | 52.9 |
| 22:12.25 | fsmithred | pretty sure 57 is the first one that requires pulse |
| 22:12.50 | fsmithred | there's ff-61 (not esr) in sid/ceres |
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| 22:18.59 | bozonius | ok running into a glitch |
| 22:18.59 | EHeM | Any help for an issue of `fsck.ext4` apparently not making it onto an initial ramdisk? (fsck.ext3 gets on, fsck.ext4 is being troublesome) |
| 22:19.09 | bozonius | I only have headphones for my testbox |
| 22:19.49 | bozonius | (usb headphones) host ascii system lsusb shows the device, but it seems the guest (beowulf) does not see it) |
| 22:20.12 | fsmithred | aplay -l |
| 22:20.18 | fsmithred | see which card is first |
| 22:20.44 | fsmithred | EHeM, maybe running 'update-initramfs -u' will fix it |
| 22:21.25 | bozonius | huh... on the host, I am seeing card 0 analog, card 0 digital, and card 1 headset |
| 22:22.20 | EHeM | fsmithred: That was the obvious guess, didn't help. |
| 22:22.24 | fsmithred | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:22.42 | bozonius | right |
| 22:23.08 | EHeM | fsmithred: Actually recreated them from scratch and `fsck.ext3` shows up, but `fsck.ext4` doesn't. |
| 22:23.38 | fsmithred | EHeM, that's weird |
| 22:24.27 | EHeM | I know. |
| 22:26.43 | EHeM | Hmm, now it looks like one of my VMs it did manage to get in, but not in some other spots. |
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| 22:35.39 | bozonius | ok, so I re-ordered the cards on the host (ascii) and I can record and playback on the host. But the beowulf guest is not seeing any usb devices |
| 22:36.04 | bozonius | I tried changing the vbox config for the vm from usb 3 to usb 2 support, but no change |
| 22:36.20 | bozonius | I suppose I could install beowulf to the host, but that will take some time... |
| 22:36.36 | fsmithred | you shouldn't need to do that |
| 22:36.39 | bozonius | or try my analog headset... |
| 22:37.33 | fsmithred | does your guest normally see the usb audio, or does it just pretend it has something else? |
| 22:38.30 | bozonius | "normally?" -- this is the first time I am trying the headset on the test box. |
| 22:40.23 | fsmithred | I think you should be able to leave the default vbox audio setting |
| 22:40.55 | fsmithred | AC97 |
| 22:41.18 | fsmithred | as long as sound works on the host, I'd expect it to work in vbox |
| 22:41.33 | fsmithred | it'll just use ALSA |
| 22:41.35 | bozonius | the problem is that the guest doesn't see the usb device |
| 22:41.44 | bozonius | (right) |
| 22:41.51 | fsmithred | why does it need to see that? |
| 22:41.56 | bozonius | now, I DO have pulse running on host |
| 22:42.12 | fsmithred | oh, then maybe set it to pulse instead of alsa |
| 22:42.13 | bozonius | I could disable that and just use alsa there, but the headset works on the ascii host |
| 22:42.32 | bozonius | it needs to see the device so it can be used in the guest |
| 22:42.43 | bozonius | the guest must capture the device first |
| 22:42.52 | bozonius | before any application can "see" it |
| 22:43.14 | fsmithred | mine does not see my correct device |
| 22:43.18 | bozonius | but the trouble is that vbox itself, for the guest process that is, does not see it |
| 22:43.26 | fsmithred | host has intel hd audio |
| 22:43.36 | fsmithred | vbox is using ac97. |
| 22:43.50 | bozonius | are you using analog or digital headphones |
| 22:43.56 | fsmithred | none |
| 22:44.00 | bozonius | oh |
| 22:44.10 | fsmithred | just looking at the audio settings on the laptop |
| 22:44.11 | bozonius | well, here's anothr thought |
| 22:44.24 | bozonius | maybe I can just plug in my speakers to the test box |
| 22:44.29 | fsmithred | lol |
| 22:44.45 | fsmithred | that should work |
| 22:44.52 | bozonius | should, yes |
| 22:45.03 | bozonius | reaches... |
| 22:47.18 | bozonius | tries to... must... grab... |
| 22:47.24 | bozonius | agggggh! |
| 22:47.43 | bozonius | is eaten by a tangle of wires in the corner behind the computers... |
| 22:47.48 | bozonius | (very sad) |
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| 22:53.24 | bozonius | boys, we have sound on beowulf! |
| 22:53.37 | bozonius | now, to see if ff works without pulse |
| 22:58.02 | bozonius | ping beowulf vm has ff 52.9.0 (ff-esr) |
| 22:58.29 | EHeM | bozonius: You created the Cordthulu? |
| 23:04.23 | bozonius | I have to admit I might have created it... you know. It starts with one wire, then you drop another through, figuring that won't be a problem. THen another, then another |
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| 23:15.37 | bozonius | having some problems with network config |
| 23:17.24 | bozonius | I tried disabling connman |
| 23:17.46 | bozonius | but even after stopping and starting network, it is not seeing the host |
| 23:17.50 | bozonius | weird. |
| 23:18.01 | bozonius | I usually don't have this many issues with simple ipv4 config |
| 23:18.06 | bozonius | with vbox |
| 23:18.30 | bozonius | ip a shows me the correct config, though I note ip route shows no default route |
| 23:19.32 | bozonius | this connman doesn't seem to be in sync with what network has |
| 23:20.34 | bozonius | it was configured for the 192.168.56.0 net, and I changed it (I thought) to .55 net, but then I see /etc/network/interfaces had not been updated -- still showed dhcp not static as I specified to connman |
| 23:20.50 | bozonius | the "Network" UI on ascii works fine... |
| 23:21.11 | bozonius | maybe one of you can kind of step me though the config for this? |
| 23:23.52 | fsmithred | I normally set it to Bridged and eth0 and it just works |
| 23:24.13 | bozonius | well, I tried that also, I can retry that... |
| 23:24.32 | bozonius | I had to kill dhclient |
| 23:24.35 | fsmithred | I don't set a static ip |
| 23:24.49 | fsmithred | it just gets an address from the router |
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| 23:50.06 | bozonius | I can ping the host, but no response comes back (I know it is going out to the host, because wireshark on the host shows the packets) |
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| 23:51.01 | bozonius | kkkkkkk |
| 23:51.06 | bozonius | (sorry) |
| 23:52.06 | bozonius | when I try to ping with -v, it tells me permission denied, attmpting raw socket... |
| 23:52.12 | bozonius | and I am root |
| 23:52.31 | bozonius | I tried allowing promiscuous mode on the adapter also |
| 23:53.10 | bozonius | 120 |
| 23:53.35 | bozonius | sorry I am on 2 keyboards |
| 23:53.50 | bozonius | (ignore "120" and "kkkk") |
| 23:53.52 | fsmithred | you're in the netdev group? |
| 23:53.58 | bozonius | root ? |
| 23:54.24 | fsmithred | oh, user |
| 23:54.47 | bozonius | and, yes, my user "tester" is also in netdev. But it might be irrelevant |
| 23:55.15 | bozonius | brb - water |
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