| 00:08.08 | *** join/#devuan booyah_ (~bb@193.25.1.157) |
| 00:08.32 | tom13 | gooten morning |
| 00:22.54 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@208.53.50.136) |
| 00:22.54 | *** topic/#devuan is Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release | This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | off-topic conversation in #debianfork please | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
| 00:22.54 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 00:33.10 | tmberg | Heh. That date format. ( 060818 ) |
| 00:34.51 | MinceR | ew |
| 00:36.01 | tom13 | this is offtopic but i think smart folks here might enjoy listening to The Black Dog - Bytes, while compu-ting. https://youtube.com/watch?v=doGecm6xyOc |
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| 03:07.04 | EHeM | I see to have run into a severe bug from somewhere... |
| 03:08.20 | EHeM | Update process appears to have suceeded, but after some adjustments the system isn't booting, I get to messages about "/scripts/local-block" and simply see that repeating and getting no further. |
| 03:09.09 | EHeM | The adjustment was to update filesystems ext3 -> ext4, initrd were rebuilt, grub was updated, but things are very stuck for normal boot. |
| 03:10.39 | EHeM | Root filesystem device appears in /dev/disk/by-uuid with the correct UUID. |
| 03:11.07 | EHeM | (root filesystem is RAID1 so it does need mdadm) |
| 03:11.29 | EHeM | s/^I see/I seem/ |
| 03:14.36 | EHeM | I'm speculating something with the /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-block/mdadm script is passing a failure indication to somewhere, but I've no idea what to do next. |
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| 03:22.38 | EHeM | (sigh, the days of yesteryear when "init=/bin/sh" actually did exactly what you expected) |
| 03:23.51 | EHeM | Hrmm, maybe it does boot, merely taking forever due to some boot script having a ridiculous timeout. Phew (though that long timeout is a problem). |
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| 03:24.35 | tom13 | why does bootup wait 2 minutes for my ethernet when it is unplugges? |
| 03:24.51 | tom13 | can i put that in background? |
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| 03:51.23 | EHeM | 37.220.36.58 which is in one (or more) of the round-robins is giving 403 errors. |
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| 04:01.07 | EHeM | "sledjhamr.org" is either having problems, or wishes to exit from the Devuan package pool. :-( |
| 04:03.33 | TheBlueWizard | I made a Devuan ascii stable mini live CD and booted it on a test machine. I was soon greeted with a rather strange menu: "std", "access", "std-toram", "access-toram". I have no idea what they are for. So I picked "std", and after some time I got a login prompt, and I do not know whay account and password to log into...care to help? |
| 04:04.10 | tom13 | root toor |
| 04:04.13 | tom13 | maybe |
| 04:05.04 | TheBlueWizard | ok re: acct/pwd...as for the choices, what do they mean? |
| 04:05.53 | tom13 | toram loads a livecd into ram memory |
| 04:05.59 | tom13 | for faster operation |
| 04:06.23 | tom13 | i do not know 'access' |
| 04:06.24 | TheBlueWizard | ok...and the difference between std and access? |
| 04:06.27 | TheBlueWizard | ok |
| 04:06.35 | TheBlueWizard | thanks |
| 04:06.50 | tom13 | maybe it mounts partitions on hard drives it finds? |
| 04:07.15 | tom13 | e.g. 'access to your pc' |
| 04:08.13 | TheBlueWizard | hmm...maybe |
| 04:10.16 | TheBlueWizard | would the mini live automatically launch a gui once I log in? (I'm on a different box right now; and I must swap the cables for the monitor to test on another box) |
| 04:11.05 | tom13 | i remember a devuan livecd with just text, and with graphics |
| 04:12.16 | tom13 | the ascii one i used was graphical |
| 04:13.26 | TheBlueWizard | has not installed ascii on a machine yet...wants to test it first |
| 04:15.44 | tom13 | i hope you can affordr spare monitor soon |
| 04:17.54 | TheBlueWizard | heh |
| 04:18.25 | EHeM | Ah yes, the fun of setting "image_dest = /tmp/user/0" in /etc/kernel-img.conf... |
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| 04:44.40 | botfap | can anyone point me to a minimal core Devuan base rootfs for armhf & aarch64 pls? |
| 04:45.18 | tom13 | botfap: #devuan-arm has some links |
| 04:45.23 | botfap | im porting to some rockchip test boards and cleaning up the ras pi images isnt the ideal starting point |
| 04:45.34 | botfap | ty |
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| 05:02.59 | xrogaan | so, how stable is beowulf? |
| 05:11.20 | divagante | xrogaan, debian testing is quite stable, devuan beowulf is based on testing? |
| 05:11.38 | divagante | I don't know |
| 05:11.46 | divagante | maybe in sid.. |
| 05:12.08 | xrogaan | supposedly |
| 05:12.21 | xrogaan | I still have that weird issue with my WM. |
| 05:12.32 | xrogaan | maybe it's compton that just fail to load at startup. |
| 05:13.52 | divagante | the issue is how the team deals with new packages that enter testing. |
| 05:14.20 | xrogaan | It's an automated process for packages that aren't handled by devuan's dream team. |
| 05:14.30 | divagante | va1c2 |
| 05:15.32 | divagante | but it's not that as soon as those packages feature systemd dependencies the dream team gets their hands on them? |
| 05:17.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | loosely on topic: did any of you check weird behavior of KDE when starting a seconf session ("switch user")? I found my internet connectivity in first session goes south as soon as I'm in second. I.E IRC client disconnects - and rconnects the very moment I switch back to first session with ctrl+alt+F7. This is either a fsckup by systemd and session mgmt friends, or an intentional feature of the Kinternet-thingiebobbie that used to be |
| 05:17.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | KNetworkManager |
| 05:19.26 | divagante | I apologize, but I always found it most efficient not to use kde or gnome. Both are "luxuries" that we can avoid. hehe. |
| 05:19.51 | divagante | xfce4 and i3 forever! |
| 05:20.01 | divagante | hail i3! hail xfce4! |
| 05:23.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | use kicad professionally and then we talk again ;-) There's a shitton of requesters and dialogs and windows that have fixed size for no good reason or open with idiotically shrinked size each time, and you really want kwin override of all possible window parameters. Also hotkey macros, though there's xdotool for that |
| 05:24.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | Werner Almesberger used iirc xfce and didn't manage to get the fixes for kicad window size and position I had implemented to streamline the workflow with that thing |
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| 05:26.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure you don't *need* any of this, you can resize same window 5 times a minute, but... ARRRRGH |
| 05:27.07 | EHeM | I've got 32GB of ECC for building large project, not for GNOME or KDE to look pretty. |
| 05:27.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is not luxury, this is a sanity guard for me |
| 05:27.16 | EHeM | ^project^projects |
| 05:27.55 | divagante | Honestly, I feel like tons of unnecessary programming. Which I don't deny, they're nice, but they help the mistake and increase the work. |
| 05:28.42 | divagante | hey! that everyone uses what they want, but the more code, the greater the chance of failure. |
| 05:29.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | nothing looks pretty here. I actaully don't see much except taskbar and window deco of KDE |
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| 05:29.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and if sth eats my RAM then that's frequently whatever browser |
| 05:30.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | KDE without apps started needs a few 100MB, low end of "few" |
| 05:31.02 | divagante | the truth is, I hardly ever resize windows. Now I'm using i3 and they're automatic mosaics. |
| 05:31.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I neither do, all windows are usually fullscreen |
| 05:32.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I got plenty of them, so I really never see the desktop wallpaper or any other of that crap |
| 05:32.28 | divagante | I once felt that my graphic freedom was invaded by the mosaic dictatorship, but then I understood that it was an illusion. Automatic order is usually more productive. |
| 05:32.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | still I love the features KDE offers |
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| 05:33.07 | divagante | Anyway, it's a matter of habit. |
| 05:33.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly |
| 05:33.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I seen colleagues who had only a 18 white-on-black xterms opened, tiled, on a black wallpaper |
| 05:34.17 | divagante | I forgot them! The last thing I used was kde 4.12. |
| 05:34.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd get the rabies |
| 05:35.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | pssssh dont tell anybody, it was rasterman ;-) |
| 05:35.35 | divagante | :-) |
| 05:35.58 | divagante | I am finishing installing devuan 2!! |
| 05:36.10 | divagante | yuppii! |
| 05:36.41 | divagante | choose xfce... jeje |
| 05:37.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.rasterman.com/ |
| 05:38.11 | divagante | what is the version of kde in devuan ASCII? |
| 05:39.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't answer that, I fucked my system with a suse upgrade today |
| 05:39.49 | divagante | What a good, weird thing about this Enlightenment... I tried it a long time ago but I don't know. You feel a little up in the air with him. Don't use wayland yet |
| 05:40.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, I guess Raster will die before he uses wayland |
| 05:40.35 | divagante | suse?? WTF?? |
| 05:40.36 | gnarface | he'll use wayland the moment Nvidia does |
| 05:40.38 | divagante | hehe |
| 05:40.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | err you mean samsung? |
| 05:41.11 | gnarface | no, i mean the moment nvidia cares about wayland support |
| 05:41.23 | gnarface | which won't happen a moment before samsung cares about it |
| 05:41.37 | gnarface | probably not a moment after, either |
| 05:41.41 | gnarface | it's all tied together |
| 05:41.55 | gnarface | (i'm still using e17 after all these years despite his disgust) |
| 05:42.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and Raster is a big fan of X11-genuine. We share the notion that you rather inprove X11 than reinventing it poorly |
| 05:42.59 | gnarface | i dunno, i talked to him and i think he really likes the idea of wayland, but driver support isn't there enough to be relevant for him yet |
| 05:43.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't talk to him for almost 10 years or so. So maybe he changed his mind meanwhile |
| 05:43.56 | EHeM | Large parts of X really need to be rewritten from the ground up, but some bits of it are very good; having network access at the lowest layer has made many valuable things happen (notice X forwarding by SSH). |
| 05:44.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't. Wayland when it supports *all* X11 tools and protocols, not a moment earlier |
| 05:44.19 | gnarface | this was within the last 2 years i had this conversation with him. the fact of the matter is Nvidia's still put all their eggs in the X11 basket as far as their linux support, so that's still anchoring a lot of big efforts to X11 (note though i agree with Nvidia for once here) |
| 05:45.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, exactly like VNC and ssh -X |
| 05:45.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | and DISLAY=10.1.1.87:1 |
| 05:45.49 | EHeM | XCreateWindow() having as arguments, width, heigh, x, and y is bad; it should have width and height, but x and y are the Window Manager's job. |
| 05:46.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | xhost + |
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| 05:47.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | err you're aware the window manager calls X functions to create and move and resize wndows? |
| 05:49.06 | EHeM | Yes. |
| 05:49.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | so how if not via parameters to such X*() call would that fly? |
| 05:50.55 | gnarface | i dunno i haven't actually had any real problems with X11 in a very long time. problems with 3rd party drivers on the other hand... |
| 05:51.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | the only real argument I been given why wayland was needed: "how else would we play HD videos?" |
| 05:51.37 | EHeM | DocScrutinizer05: The point is X and Y shouldn't be being passed in by a normal client, it should only pass width and height and the window manager decides placement. |
| 05:52.10 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: raster's whole thing as of when i last talked to him about it was entirely about how much saner it made cellphone development for him |
| 05:52.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's a valid point |
| 05:52.15 | gnarface | (similar to the pulseaudio thing) |
| 05:52.39 | gnarface | but since then wayland has not become even one iota closer to being even a proof-of-concept i can try out |
| 05:52.51 | gnarface | so i will not be holding my breath for that |
| 05:53.14 | gnarface | and i think putting screens on phones might have been the worst thing that ever happened to society |
| 05:54.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | but it's kinda funny anyway seeing THE graphics guru Raster sitting in front of an all black screen with a mess of white ultratiny characters ;-P |
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| 05:54.55 | gnarface | DocScrutinizer05: it's a lot funnier if you'd been privvy to his rant about how i don't spend enough on my monitors |
| 05:55.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | hehehhehe |
| 05:55.15 | gnarface | so i have an inkling of what the display cost that he apparently elected to fill with plain text |
| 06:00.48 | divagante | hey! people! I had read that if you chose the expert installation mode on devuan ascii it proposed to choose between sysvinit and openrc. This did not happen. |
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| 06:03.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | err I didn't read "propose", rather "offer" |
| 06:03.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | which prolly means you can tick a checkbox somewhere in package selection |
| 06:04.41 | divagante | Okay. Okay. I just didn't see the box. |
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| 06:04.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | but until yesterday I had no vbox or wheatever to run a test install of ASCII here |
| 06:05.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | you know, 4 years old system, with thoroughly fubared libs and package management |
| 06:06.17 | Jjp137 | heh I just ran through the expert install really quickly; when you are loading the installer components from the install media, in the list that appears, make sure to select the "choose-init" component |
| 06:06.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed Beyond All Repair |
| 06:06.22 | Jjp137 | divagante, ^ |
| 06:06.43 | Jjp137 | but if you installed already you can probably set up OpenRC later if you want |
| 06:07.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty sure about that |
| 06:07.15 | divagante | Jjp137, ahhh!! |
| 06:07.43 | divagante | I've already... stayed with sysvinit. |
| 06:07.50 | divagante | tanks! |
| 06:08.30 | divagante | The option is hidden! I thought it was part of the process... my mistake for not looking! |
| 06:08.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-) |
| 06:12.45 | divagante | and you who use devuan, how do you configure or install firefox quantum? |
| 06:12.59 | tom13 | apt-get install firefox |
| 06:14.18 | divagante | the easiest way is to download the package and make a path to the executable, but then we must configure menus and things to make it look good... some other method? |
| 06:14.45 | divagante | ohh! is in the repositories? |
| 06:15.16 | Jjp137 | actually, if you're not on ceres, I don't think there is a firefox package (at least on Jessie/ASCII), only firefox-esr |
| 06:16.30 | divagante | Ohh... the same thing happens in debian strecht... |
| 06:16.41 | tom13 | the cool kid's treehouse is named ceres |
| 06:17.33 | divagante | Why don't they put it on the backports? in stretch I do a pinning to the sid repositories, but recently he asked me for one more dependency and I don't like that much anymore. |
| 06:17.58 | Jjp137 | probably due to the dependency on Rust that Firefox has |
| 06:18.05 | divagante | continuing to add the dependencies of packages in sid could break the system. |
| 06:18.56 | divagante | I don't remember if it was rust. |
| 06:19.30 | divagante | but something was requested, and four packages were added together. |
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| 06:19.51 | divagante | I don't want to do it in devuan. |
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| 06:22.40 | tom13 | i found palemoon to be an option if you disagree with some firefox changes |
| 06:23.07 | xrogaan | Automated configuration and settings is always wrong, I'm slowly starting to hate mate. |
| 06:24.18 | divagante | the truth is, I thought quantum was good. More agile, more orderly loading.. |
| 06:25.36 | divagante | I enter about:config -mozilla- and remove everything that google, mozilla, geoip, and other things say. |
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| 06:28.59 | divagante | haha... in devuan ascii pulseaudio is installed by default, something that in debian stretch does not happen.. |
| 06:29.26 | divagante | Maybe it's a matter of space on the iso. |
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| 06:35.47 | EHeM | Ugh, elogind got installed by default during an upgrade; gone now, but yuck. |
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| 06:41.06 | ritcher89 | alguien habla espanol? the first cd 1 is enough to install xorg and openbox? |
| 06:45.36 | divagante | hola ritcher89 |
| 06:45.46 | divagante | aqui un hispano hablante.. |
| 06:45.54 | divagante | conta nomas, que te entiendo che. |
| 06:46.08 | ritcher89 | hola ya probaste devuan? |
| 06:46.12 | divagante | si.. |
| 06:46.34 | ritcher89 | esque solo tengo cd para quemar me sirve con un solo cd? |
| 06:46.42 | divagante | acabo de instalar el nuevo estable.. el ascii, este no lo probe del todo pero la instalacion y luego agregar paqueteria funciona todo bien |
| 06:46.48 | divagante | claro! |
| 06:46.51 | ritcher89 | o toca los tres |
| 06:46.53 | divagante | el cd numero uno |
| 06:47.01 | ritcher89 | sin internet? |
| 06:47.09 | divagante | no no! es como debian.. con el cd1 alcanza. trae xfce4 |
| 06:47.17 | divagante | aja.. sin internet. |
| 06:47.28 | divagante | lo que si la paqueteria es pobre. |
| 06:47.40 | divagante | apenas tenes vlc y quodlibet, libreoffice y no mucho mas.. |
| 06:47.52 | ritcher89 | con lo basico me sirve muchas gracis |
| 06:47.57 | ritcher89 | gracias |
| 06:48.03 | divagante | si tenes un pincho -pendrive- bajate el dvd.. |
| 06:48.18 | divagante | ojo con el torrent! trae un monton de isos por defecto! |
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| 06:48.28 | divagante | por nada che |
| 06:48.39 | ritcher89 | vale gracias |
| 06:48.56 | divagante | ea! new support in spanish here! |
| 06:49.11 | divagante | hehe |
| 06:50.38 | tom13 | i can almost read it |
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| 06:54.12 | divagante | You know Spanish? |
| 06:55.06 | divagante | I don't know English, I can barely read it, I'm using deepl.com/translate |
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| 06:58.53 | Artemis3 | divagante, no tienes dvd? https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/ |
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| 06:59.39 | Artemis3 | ah ritcher89 nvm |
| 06:59.56 | divagante | hola Artemis3, no era yo quien necesitaba.. de echo el usuario tampoco! |
| 07:00.01 | divagante | se lo recomende. gracias che |
| 07:00.35 | divagante | one cd more pendrive its work well!! |
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| 07:38.22 | xrogaan | does icewm.org dead for you too? |
| 07:38.32 | xrogaan | is* |
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| 07:39.14 | xormor | I am now trying out Devuan ASCII 2.0 amd64-live. |
| 07:39.53 | xormor | Seems to work smoothly. I had to set up the keyboard layout to Finnish and install HexChat, and I installed system updates/upgrades too, via Synaptic. |
| 07:40.24 | xrogaan | nice. |
| 07:41.44 | tom13 | nice to see people trying it out |
| 07:42.21 | *** join/#devuan guru (~guru@c-24-34-239-236.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 07:45.22 | xormor | Yes. I got an advertisement for it via a Facebook group. Facebook is a cancer, though, but luckily it has FOSS and (GNU)/Linux groups. There is a Debian group I am in, but it is a very quiet group. We need to get lots of chatter about Devuan going on, so people will get interested in it, and some will even try it out. |
| 07:46.17 | xormor | Is Devuan 1.0 more difficult to try out? |
| 07:47.01 | xormor | We need to get this system on lots of desktop computers, and of course servers are a "must" target group for Devuan. |
| 07:47.50 | xormor | I have a BBA in Business IT degree, so I know how to market and how to fiddle around with UNIX, Linux, Debian, the Internet, the LAN's, the WAN's, the WiFi's etc. |
| 07:48.08 | xrogaan | devuan is basically debian oldstable I believe. |
| 07:48.16 | xrogaan | err devuan 1.0 |
| 07:48.45 | xrogaan | 2.0 notes the fracture between the two, systemd is not available at all. |
| 07:51.12 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: Devuan jessie does not have systemd aither |
| 07:51.14 | KatolaZ | ~either |
| 07:52.42 | divagante | Excuse me... what the fuck does "business computing" mean? use Red Hat man for that!! hehe.. I say humorousl. |
| 07:53.30 | divagante | They look like made-up titles to me. There is the system administrator and his knowledge. |
| 07:53.42 | system16 | i use devuan because it can run on a potato. (without a DE) |
| 07:54.33 | system16 | and devuan makes a really good sftp file server btw. |
| 07:54.48 | tom13 | i donate to devuan because it feels better than a case of beer |
| 07:55.09 | tom13 | can i be your marketing guru? :) |
| 07:56.29 | lall- | saying stuff "better than a case of beer" might get you booed at.. and hurt the image of the distro |
| 07:58.38 | tom13 | i didn't say which brand |
| 08:00.53 | system16 | btw that text that shows up on startup isnt really nice. (DEVUAN COMES WITH ABSOULUTLY NO WARRANTY) |
| 08:01.08 | system16 | u can make it a bit friendly |
| 08:01.46 | xrogaan | KatolaZ: does jessie comes with systemd by default? |
| 08:01.52 | xrogaan | I actually don't know |
| 08:02.10 | xrogaan | also, how do I start a terminal with enlightment? |
| 08:02.20 | xrogaan | alt+f2 default to switching the workspace :( |
| 08:02.44 | xrogaan | I have yet to find a way to look at the default keybind for that DE. |
| 08:03.43 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: devuan jessie has no systemd |
| 08:03.53 | xrogaan | s/devuan/debian/ |
| 08:09.07 | xrogaan | oh, enlightment is probably one of the weird "we are a tactile DE". I just find it unusable. And the mouse cursor automatically goes back to the latest used window, that is annoying. |
| 08:09.30 | golinux | xrogaan: Some Debian history regarding systemd here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 |
| 08:09.57 | golinux | That vote is why Devuan was created. |
| 08:11.56 | *** join/#devuan eyalroz (~quassel@86.93.67.112) |
| 08:13.07 | xrogaan | well, what's devuan jessie then? A fork? If so, it's not more difficult at all. Just debian. |
| 08:13.47 | xrogaan | I don't really get what I said that was wrong. |
| 08:14.35 | gnarface | xrogaan: left-click -> settings -> settings panel (you can change everything) |
| 08:14.59 | *** join/#devuan rafalcpp (~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl) |
| 08:15.06 | xrogaan | went there 3 times. It's not obvious. |
| 08:15.43 | xrogaan | no tooltips, no nothing. Just lists of "stuff". |
| 08:15.51 | gnarface | hmmm, windows -> window focus -> advanced |
| 08:16.07 | gnarface | -> miscillaneous |
| 08:17.54 | gnarface | find it? |
| 08:18.06 | gnarface | uncheck "slide pointer to a new window which is focused" |
| 08:18.18 | xrogaan | Thanks, I did. E17 ain't for me though. If I have to spend time on something, I'd rather it not be in searching the GUI. |
| 08:18.22 | gnarface | you'll probably want to change a few other things in there |
| 08:19.15 | xrogaan | One thing I like is how I can change workspace by dragging my mouse on the edges of the screen. |
| 08:21.11 | golinux | <xrogaan> well, what's devuan jessie then? A fork? |
| 08:21.27 | golinux | Tes. That's the whole point of Devuan |
| 08:21.33 | golinux | Yes really |
| 08:22.59 | *** join/#devuan cocoadaemon (~foo@x53.octopuce.fr) |
| 08:24.59 | golinux | https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ |
| 08:32.55 | tom13 | ty for the forum link, golinux |
| 08:36.14 | tom13 | that is one of the most thoughtful forum posts i've read, ever. |
| 08:37.40 | *** join/#devuan DocScrutinizer05 (~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg) |
| 08:42.52 | *** join/#devuan Tuor (~Tuor@unaffiliated/tuor) |
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| 08:53.32 | filipdevuan | hey should i install non free nvidia drivers on my computer?? |
| 08:55.13 | xrogaan | why not? |
| 08:55.20 | *** join/#devuan AntoFox (~Thunderbi@dynamic-adsl-78-12-50-92.clienti.tiscali.it) |
| 08:55.41 | tom13 | didn't work for me |
| 08:55.58 | tom13 | then again i have this optimus laptop thing |
| 08:56.56 | filipdevuan | because theyre non free lol. im just worried if they can spy me |
| 08:57.33 | KatolaZ | filipdevuan: they will surely tell nvidia if your video card is rendering a prOn movie... |
| 08:57.36 | tom13 | what advantage would they give you |
| 08:57.37 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 08:58.19 | filipdevuan | i dont know if i should use basically free software and dunno if sticking to non-free is something that i want |
| 08:59.38 | KatolaZ | filipdevuan: you should use what you think it's better for you |
| 09:00.01 | KatolaZ | if you understand the motivations behind free software, then you'd probably have little doubt about it |
| 09:00.04 | KatolaZ | but still |
| 09:00.33 | *** join/#devuan Fervi (~fervi@2a02:a317:e144:d900:a2f3:c1ff:fe2d:aad4) |
| 09:00.52 | KatolaZ | it's your decision |
| 09:01.48 | filipdevuan | i wonder wheres my system monitor gone |
| 09:06.18 | tom13 | i wonder if i should finish my cryptocurrency monitor dockapp |
| 09:07.39 | *** join/#devuan jback (~jasper@shell.jhq.io) |
| 09:13.14 | filipdevuan | yeah i would like to play games on my linux machine im anti spying anti steam but i ditched windows and i feel like installing everything wine steam lots of other games and try to run them under my linux pc |
| 09:13.50 | tom13 | i hear nvidia drivers are better for games |
| 09:16.06 | filipdevuan | yeah |
| 09:16.13 | gnarface | that's usually true |
| 09:16.22 | *** join/#devuan blitzed (~blitzed@185.236.200.116) |
| 09:16.23 | filipdevuan | so perhaps i should not care about free and not-free thing and just install them instead even if theyre non free |
| 09:16.37 | gnarface | which video card is it, filipdevuan? |
| 09:16.37 | filipdevuan | i know there are lots of nice linux games that iv never played before though |
| 09:17.03 | filipdevuan | well i basically have two on my laptop cuz this is basically a windows laptop, its intel integrated hd and nvidia geforce 940mx |
| 09:17.13 | gnarface | oh, one of those |
| 09:17.17 | filipdevuan | yeah.. |
| 09:17.22 | gnarface | you might have problems with it |
| 09:17.25 | filipdevuan | im trying to run runescape 3 on my laptop but it works like crap |
| 09:17.33 | tom13 | if the game doesn't need too much power m aybe you dont need the closed drivers |
| 09:17.40 | tom13 | oh |
| 09:17.46 | filipdevuan | i mean it works but its not clear |
| 09:18.02 | tom13 | is it running a low resolution? |
| 09:18.05 | filipdevuan | but im like should i even bother with windows game... |
| 09:18.08 | gnarface | hmmm, i wonder if they fixed reclocking for that card |
| 09:18.18 | gnarface | they might have |
| 09:18.18 | filipdevuan | ill have a look |
| 09:19.05 | xrogaan | you're trying to play runscape (non-free software) but are worried about the non-free software from nvidia? |
| 09:19.18 | filipdevuan | yeah exactly runescape is non free xD |
| 09:19.36 | filipdevuan | linux is new world to me im so used to windows |
| 09:19.53 | tom13 | have fun in it filipdevuan |
| 09:19.53 | filipdevuan | and spending money for games that run under it |
| 09:19.57 | filipdevuan | thanks |
| 09:20.37 | filipdevuan | well are games from synaptic manager all free what do u think |
| 09:20.39 | tom13 | back when loki was making linux games i bought them all |
| 09:20.46 | filipdevuan | whos loki? |
| 09:20.48 | djph | filipdevuan: "free" |
| 09:20.51 | tom13 | despite having no time for them |
| 09:21.02 | djph | some are, some aren't |
| 09:21.14 | gnarface | i'd ask in #nouveau about that hardware, filipdevuan. mention the dual-video card thing. you might still be able to avoid the non-free drivers |
| 09:21.26 | filipdevuan | btw im looking for nice email provider that has free imap/pop3 do you know any nice ones?? |
| 09:21.28 | xrogaan | filipdevuan: try crawl |
| 09:21.37 | filipdevuan | game crawl? |
| 09:21.39 | xrogaan | yeah |
| 09:21.41 | djph | filipdevuan: google? |
| 09:21.42 | filipdevuan | ok thanks gnar, ill go there |
| 09:21.57 | filipdevuan | i use duckduckgo.com dont use google xD. my hate to google forced me to leave windows for devuan |
| 09:22.00 | djph | filipdevuan: i mean, they'll sell you to advertisers and everything, but free imap. |
| 09:22.06 | filipdevuan | ok |
| 09:22.16 | djph | what does GOOGLE have to do with WINDOWS? |
| 09:22.24 | filipdevuan | google spies on you and sells you data like windows |
| 09:22.34 | djph | well, yeah, they're an ad company |
| 09:22.37 | filipdevuan | and @gmail sucks |
| 09:22.44 | filipdevuan | i wanna have something different than generic gmail.com |
| 09:22.46 | filipdevuan | :P |
| 09:23.02 | djph | so then run your own off of linode / digital ocean / etc. |
| 09:24.11 | tom13 | do isps filter outgoing smtp from end users? |
| 09:24.11 | filipdevuan | yeah if i knew how to do this xD |
| 09:24.31 | tom13 | long ago my email was on my home pc |
| 09:24.54 | filipdevuan | ill have look on these linode thanks and btw i cant post anything on #nonveau |
| 09:25.22 | xrogaan | tom13: they do, limits spam |
| 09:26.34 | tom13 | i have to try this again |
| 09:27.04 | tom13 | but i am not wanting to mess with sendmail |
| 09:27.05 | xrogaan | My ISP allows me to unblock some port though, but I have to make the request. |
| 09:27.19 | tom13 | maybe post.. |
| 09:27.59 | filipdevuan | oh i managed to get registered on safe-mail.net |
| 09:29.25 | xrogaan | are you based on america? |
| 09:29.31 | filipdevuan | nah england |
| 09:29.47 | filipdevuan | i wonder why has my system monitor disappeared |
| 09:30.12 | KatolaZ | filipdevuan: what is your "system monitor"? |
| 09:30.12 | tom13 | what is system monitor |
| 09:30.15 | xrogaan | sdfeu.org provides free unix services then |
| 09:30.18 | tom13 | lol |
| 09:30.42 | filipdevuan | i mean the app that shows me processes i run and interntet usage im not sure if that was called system monitor |
| 09:30.54 | KatolaZ | filipdevuan: top |
| 09:30.55 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 09:30.58 | KatolaZ | iftop |
| 09:31.12 | KatolaZ | and iotop |
| 09:31.22 | KatolaZ | the three of them do what you want |
| 09:31.23 | KatolaZ | ;) |
| 09:31.32 | filipdevuan | okay :P |
| 09:31.43 | filipdevuan | im installing some e-mail client called sylpheed |
| 09:31.56 | tom13 | gkrellm monitors stuff wile taking little space |
| 09:31.58 | KatolaZ | (now I was trolling you, sorry :) no idea of what are the corresponding GUI thingies....) |
| 09:32.06 | tom13 | so do windowmaker dockapps |
| 09:32.18 | xrogaan | including email services |
| 09:32.37 | tom13 | ill check it out |
| 09:32.49 | filipdevuan | i remember iv always had default installed system monitor or something like that... |
| 09:32.50 | tom13 | how many users does it have xrogaan ? |
| 09:33.19 | KatolaZ | sdfeu seems to be a bit on the abandoned side lately |
| 09:33.25 | KatolaZ | sdf is still pretty active |
| 09:35.13 | tom13 | sdf.org? |
| 09:35.43 | xrogaan | yes |
| 09:52.19 | *** join/#devuan Achylles (~Achylles@2804:431:d725:d206:514c:d165:697a:b5cb) |
| 09:54.13 | filipdevuan | so i downloaded something in .tar.bz2 what command would extract it and then install?? |
| 09:54.42 | KatolaZ | man tar |
| 09:54.45 | KatolaZ | ... |
| 09:55.39 | filipdevuan | ?? |
| 09:57.17 | lall- | learn how to do it by reading manual. you can read manual by typing man tar in the command line. |
| 09:57.24 | lall- | well, tar manual anyway. |
| 09:57.50 | filipdevuan | ok cheers |
| 09:59.02 | lall- | man command will be useful for you. so man program where program is the program you want to read manual for. |
| 09:59.17 | lall- | man ls |
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| 10:00.03 | KatolaZ | filipdevuan: unix is not stackexchange ;) |
| 10:00.17 | filipdevuan | ok thanks |
| 10:00.19 | KatolaZ | you deserve more than a pre-cooked and quick answer, that you have to ask again for next time |
| 10:00.33 | filipdevuan | cheers |
| 10:00.39 | KatolaZ | decompressiong stuff is a basic task |
| 10:00.45 | KatolaZ | and you gotta learn how to do it |
| 10:00.53 | KatolaZ | either using a commnad |
| 10:00.55 | KatolaZ | command |
| 10:00.58 | KatolaZ | or using a GUI |
| 10:01.05 | tom13 | yes |
| 10:01.27 | tom13 | happily new gnu tar understands compression type automatically |
| 10:01.33 | KatolaZ | choose your way, but keep learning ;) |
| 10:01.58 | tom13 | but manpages are exhaustive |
| 10:02.09 | filipdevuan | yeah i mean i know how to do it using GUI but id love to have the app in the application menu after i donwload it but now its just in the folder on the desktop |
| 10:02.11 | tom13 | there should be dummyman pages |
| 10:02.26 | tom13 | with the most common uses in examples |
| 10:03.58 | lall- | unless it's a distro package you cannot "install it". .deb files don't usually come in .tar.bz2, and they are the ones that you can install. so i'm assuming you either have to compile it or if it's statically linked then just copy it somewhere and add it in the app menu. |
| 10:04.31 | lall- | actually... some things have their own installers |
| 10:05.30 | filipdevuan | ok thx :) |
| 10:06.48 | gnarface | filipdevuan: something that would have saved me a lot of time starting out; `man man` |
| 10:08.41 | *** join/#devuan foxmean (~user@183.89.80.72) |
| 10:08.54 | foxmean | Hello, everybody. |
| 10:10.24 | foxmean | I've migrate form UbuntuMATE, I'm still newbies. I would like to know, where I can find documentation about installing bootloader. |
| 10:10.40 | foxmean | My machine is Laptop HP G32 |
| 10:10.42 | foxmean | . |
| 10:10.54 | tom13 | i cant remember the difference between ar and tar |
| 10:11.07 | gnarface | foxmean: look up grub and lilo |
| 10:11.13 | tom13 | all these memories will be lost, like tears in the rain |
| 10:13.44 | foxmean | @gnarface Thank you so much. |
| 10:13.50 | gnarface | np :) |
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| 10:53.21 | filipdevuan | goddamn i downloaded some e-mail client called sylpheed |
| 10:53.56 | filipdevuan | and i can only send e-mails to myself but when i send it on other domains like protonmail it says 550 relay not permitted |
| 10:53.59 | filipdevuan | :( |
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| 11:32.15 | filipdevuan | what e-mail client would you suggest to use?? |
| 11:32.27 | tom13 | ooo |
| 11:32.32 | tom13 | there is mutt |
| 11:32.52 | tom13 | and older, alpine |
| 11:33.33 | tom13 | and before that, there was pine. then before that, 'mail' |
| 11:34.07 | filipdevuan | okay ill check mutt thanks :) |
| 11:35.06 | filipdevuan | btw is this true that nsa and other agiences apply some backdoors in hardware and even though i use devuan they can still spy me? |
| 11:35.09 | filipdevuan | is devuan gnu?? |
| 11:35.23 | *** join/#devuan ohmegaohm (~ohmegaohm@enki.uom.gr) |
| 11:37.32 | filipdevuan | https://libreboot.org/faq.html#intel |
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| 11:41.27 | tom13 | i dont know what capabilities nsa has |
| 11:41.55 | tom13 | but some people disable the management engine now |
| 11:42.10 | filipdevuan | how?? |
| 11:42.59 | tom13 | there is howto |
| 11:43.03 | tom13 | somewhere |
| 11:43.04 | filipdevuan | okay |
| 11:43.24 | filipdevuan | i regret that i bought windows 10 laptop with intel core i5 instead of libre laptop ;// |
| 11:43.29 | filipdevuan | it may be affected |
| 11:43.52 | tom13 | everything since core duo has ME |
| 11:44.10 | xrogaan | is there a way to know if a packet exists in backports but not installed? |
| 11:44.20 | filipdevuan | yeah but they sell these laptops with ME removed they say |
| 11:44.38 | tom13 | yes, disabled, probably |
| 11:45.12 | filipdevuan | ok cheers ill search shit about it do you have me disabled or you dont care?? |
| 11:46.01 | tom13 | i care but.. am pessimist |
| 11:46.51 | tom13 | am building a silent ryzen laptop |
| 11:46.53 | *** join/#devuan AMDmi3 (~AMDmi3@2a02:6b8:0:c3e::1:1b) |
| 11:47.05 | filipdevuan | nice |
| 11:47.08 | AMDmi3 | hi |
| 11:47.28 | AMDmi3 | is there no more Devuan testing? |
| 11:47.47 | tom13 | yes, the cooling is a 20x20x1cm aluminum heatsink |
| 11:48.01 | tom13 | goes on back of display, with mainboard. |
| 11:48.17 | tom13 | the base is trackpoint keyboard plus giant battery |
| 11:49.11 | tom13 | i await working ryzen opengl drivers in devuan |
| 11:56.14 | filipdevuan | wtf is this? https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb |
| 11:56.25 | filipdevuan | it it like wireless driver on my laptop but secure?? |
| 11:57.53 | tom13 | i dont know that adapter, but some people use usb wireless and disable onboard |
| 11:58.03 | filipdevuan | and its more secure?? |
| 11:58.18 | filipdevuan | i think iv had usb adapter somewhere itd be better than onboard one???? |
| 11:58.21 | tom13 | this goes too far afield of devuan topic |
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| 11:59.17 | tom13 | but as a rule, you can trust intel to be spies |
| 11:59.46 | tom13 | the joke is right in the name |
| 12:00.00 | filipdevuan | ok |
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| 12:49.27 | djph | filipdevuan: looks mainly like a "hey, you don't have to fight with this like every other USB card out there" |
| 12:50.47 | filipdevuan | i wanna pay for a proper e-mail service and i think im gonna use this one http://safe-mail.net/ |
| 12:51.00 | filipdevuan | basically im looking for pop3/imap support for client |
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| 12:54.14 | AMDmi3 | that is, there's no more `unstable' or `beowulf' on http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/, is this to be expected? |
| 12:56.01 | KatolaZ | AMDmi3: there has never been a beowulf there |
| 12:56.15 | KatolaZ | AMDmi3: you should use deb.devuan.org starting with ASCII |
| 12:56.45 | KatolaZ | and anyway, auto.mirror.devuan.org has unstable |
| 12:57.06 | KatolaZ | but again, it's recommended to switch over to deb.devuan.org |
| 12:57.48 | AMDmi3 | zoh, nice, dev.devuan.org has all the repos, thank you! |
| 12:58.15 | KatolaZ | deb.devuan.org |
| 12:58.20 | KatolaZ | np |
| 12:58.30 | djph | filipdevuan: or run your own mailserver (it's involved, so that you get security right ..) |
| 12:58.52 | filipdevuan | yeah that would be perfect to run my own mailserver but i have no idea where to start |
| 13:00.08 | djph | there are (were) some decent tutorials up on linode / digital ocean |
| 13:01.15 | *** join/#devuan divansantana (~divansant@156.0.193.126) |
| 13:03.24 | filipdevuan | yeah but its not free |
| 13:07.39 | xrogaan | you can't really have quality for free |
| 13:10.12 | djph | the tutorials are free ... |
| 13:10.41 | djph | xrogaan: unless you count running it yourself "free" (I mean, I do - I'm already paying for the electrons and the internet service) |
| 13:12.46 | xrogaan | `<filipdevuan> yeah but its not free' < answering to that. |
| 13:13.14 | djph | xrogaan: my point was that I have "quality" (postfix + dovecot) email for "free(tm)" |
| 13:13.21 | filipdevuan | i believe that i can make quality that i desire and its free |
| 13:13.39 | filipdevuan | well anyway i think im gonna pay to safemail.net it works under gnu icecat browser as well |
| 13:13.43 | xrogaan | djph: you do have to maintain your system, that's not worries free :P |
| 13:14.21 | filipdevuan | yeah well |
| 13:14.32 | filipdevuan | im just saying i dont wanna pay rich people for making stuff for me |
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| 13:16.17 | djph | xrogaan: yeah, but it's par for course. |
| 13:16.30 | djph | filipdevuan: well, I'm hardly "rich" - you can pay me :D |
| 13:16.38 | filipdevuan | for what? ;D |
| 13:16.52 | filipdevuan | for setting own e-mail server? :P |
| 13:17.03 | djph | well, you could, if I sold that |
| 13:17.08 | xrogaan | yeah, right, rich people hosting emails. |
| 13:17.10 | filipdevuan | yeah thats true |
| 13:17.31 | filipdevuan | yeah i mean like billionairies and others |
| 13:18.09 | xrogaan | I believe you overestimate the potency of the email business. |
| 13:18.26 | buZz | lol |
| 13:18.46 | filipdevuan | well most people use gmail services or microsoft or yahoo and they're or multibillionaire corporates |
| 13:18.56 | buZz | i bet the guy who sold HoTMaiL.com to microsoft, made more money of it, then any later reseller of email services |
| 13:19.04 | filipdevuan | iv searched for other email services but they all require payment if i wanna use it under pop/imap |
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| 13:19.28 | buZz | filipdevuan: normally ISPs have pop/imap/smtp for free for their users |
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| 13:20.18 | filipdevuan | which ones lol iv registered to protonmail.com and its paid. another thing is i cant access protonmail from gnu icecat with libremjs |
| 13:21.48 | filipdevuan | im looking for nice simple and secure e-mail server that would run on e-mail client cuz i wanna receive and send e-mails from email client not from browser |
| 13:21.56 | filipdevuan | i can of course use google for it, but i dont wanna google xD |
| 13:26.47 | djph | if it supports imap(s) and smtp(s), it'll work with any MUA that supports those |
| 13:28.49 | filipdevuan | yeah but iv noticed if theres a nice email service provider they require payment for imap/pop ;/ |
| 13:28.51 | KatolaZ | filipdevuan: it's better you read about protonmail before joining |
| 13:29.09 | filipdevuan | where |
| 13:29.15 | KatolaZ | a thread from last week revealed that protonmail is just the good face of a company that sells emails for ads |
| 13:29.19 | KatolaZ | reddit |
| 13:29.23 | KatolaZ | other sources |
| 13:29.25 | KatolaZ | hold on |
| 13:30.21 | KatolaZ | oh sorry |
| 13:30.26 | filipdevuan | yeah i dont like this protonmail anyway |
| 13:30.27 | KatolaZ | it was hackernews probably |
| 13:30.45 | filipdevuan | but anyways im leaving protonmail asap and going to safe-mail.net |
| 13:31.58 | filipdevuan | well im gonna have a read but protonmail for me is just temporary email anyway |
| 13:32.12 | KatolaZ | can't actually find the relevant link now |
| 13:32.18 | filipdevuan | wanna quit it as soon as i get access to nice pop/imap one, i think im probably gonna pay for safe-mail |
| 13:32.23 | filipdevuan | im gonna search for it thanks ;P |
| 13:32.55 | xrogaan | is it fake news? |
| 13:34.27 | xormor | How does Richard Stallman regard systemd's architecture and adoption? |
| 13:35.17 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: what? |
| 13:35.28 | xrogaan | KatolaZ: it's not because one website report something that it is automatically true. Like that time the EFF told everybody to stop using gnupg to encrypt emails because *some* mtu were buggy. |
| 13:36.13 | xrogaan | They did, of course, suggested to people to use their "secure" app to send private message. |
| 13:36.30 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: I agree about PGP |
| 13:36.35 | KatolaZ | disagree about protonmail |
| 13:36.44 | KatolaZ | since the thread was backed up by facts |
| 13:36.46 | KatolaZ | :) |
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| 13:36.56 | xormor | http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=123341 |
| 13:36.57 | xrogaan | A thread you cannot find, might I add :P |
| 13:37.47 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: :D |
| 13:37.55 | xormor | I mostly care about if it works or if it does not. I have found Microsoft products, and Red Hat products inconvenient and I will use both Debian and Devuan from now on. |
| 13:37.57 | KatolaZ | I will find it :) |
| 13:38.12 | KatolaZ | xormor: systemd works, apparently... |
| 13:40.03 | tom13 | i would go to a devuan meetup in Frankfurt |
| 13:40.04 | tom13 | or nearby |
| 13:40.18 | xrogaan | I don't want to learn systemd. I want to be able to hack my machine without relying on stupid stuff like that. gconf is already pushing it for my tastes. |
| 13:40.27 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258706 |
| 13:40.29 | tom13 | same |
| 13:42.04 | KatolaZ | tom13: is there a devuan meetup in Frankfurt? |
| 13:42.26 | tom13 | i don't know |
| 13:42.31 | tom13 | you nearby? |
| 13:42.31 | _stephen_ | What's this about protonmail? |
| 13:43.02 | xrogaan | They rent machines to some dubious company. |
| 13:43.05 | tom13 | we could get a table at restaurant with wifi, bring gadgets |
| 13:43.13 | filipdevuan | its some pretend to be secure company with gay name |
| 13:43.19 | filipdevuan | but anyway r u germans?? |
| 13:43.50 | tom13 | i can show openpandora, droid4s with sailfish, n900s and hopefully soon pyra (maybe with devuan) |
| 13:44.06 | KatolaZ | [1;2C |
| 13:44.41 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: actually they rent machines from a dubious company... |
| 13:44.58 | KatolaZ | which seems to be just collateral to protonmail |
| 13:45.16 | KatolaZ | and whose main business seems to be data analytics and advertisement... |
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| 13:48.34 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: even more interesting https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17258203 |
| 13:48.40 | KatolaZ | _stephen_: ^^^ |
| 13:50.49 | _stephen_ | I don't see anything conclusive in there that would damn them. |
| 13:51.08 | _stephen_ | Also, why the hell are all the cool meetups outside the US? |
| 13:51.28 | _stephen_ | Anyone going to HOPE in July? |
| 13:51.35 | parazyd | fsmithred: Has Refracta been rebased on Ascii? |
| 13:52.25 | fsmithred | parazyd, yeah, I have a beta up on my sourceforge site |
| 13:52.50 | fsmithred | and I will soon upload a no-dbus iso |
| 13:52.55 | fsmithred | also ascii |
| 13:53.36 | parazyd | fsmithred: What about an upgrade from jessie? |
| 13:53.40 | parazyd | Would that work? |
| 13:54.03 | fsmithred | mostly works |
| 13:54.18 | parazyd | Ah sweet :) |
| 13:54.20 | fsmithred | there is an issue I need to solve - |
| 13:54.42 | filipdevuan | damn so it looks like protonmail is lithuanian omg XD |
| 13:54.46 | fsmithred | in refracta ascii, new install or upgrade from jessie, synaptic and gparted start without asking for password |
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| 13:55.19 | xrogaan | who wants to go travel in the US while crazy carrot-man is at the head of the states? |
| 13:56.28 | parazyd | fsmithred: Thanks :) |
| 13:57.50 | djph | raises hand for a US trip |
| 13:57.52 | fsmithred | parazyd, I think any xfce upgrades that were installed without task-xfce-desktop will run into problems |
| 13:58.19 | fsmithred | but they are mostly known and easily fixed by installing the right libraries |
| 13:58.43 | KatolaZ | fsmithred: actually xfce might be fine, right? |
| 13:58.49 | fsmithred | when I get a chance to run through it all again, I'll post on dng for help |
| 13:58.57 | KatolaZ | since it is on consolekit in both jessie and ascii? |
| 13:59.30 | fsmithred | upgrades of refracta jessie have resulted in pkexec allowing synaptic and gparted to run without authentication |
| 13:59.46 | fsmithred | that's been true since last summer, and it hasn't changed with the new polkit stuff |
| 14:00.24 | fsmithred | for others, upgrade results in those packages not starting at all from menu or terminal (as synaptic-pkexec, for instance) |
| 14:03.45 | fsmithred | I'm just about ready to head out for the day. Will be back in around 6-8 hours. |
| 14:04.07 | KatolaZ | ok fsmithred |
| 14:04.12 | KatolaZ | have a nice one |
| 14:04.13 | KatolaZ | o/ |
| 14:04.30 | fsmithred | if someone feels like installing refracta jessie and doing an upgrade to ascii, I'd be happy to have the company. |
| 14:06.53 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 14:07.09 | KatolaZ | I'd do that one of these nights |
| 14:07.54 | fsmithred | thanks :) |
| 14:16.33 | xrogaan | anybody knows how to properly reset mate? |
| 14:16.44 | xrogaan | the wm crashing/not starting is driving me nuts. |
| 14:20.31 | tom13 | mate was too buggy for me |
| 14:20.37 | xrogaan | yes. |
| 14:20.56 | tom13 | have fun |
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| 14:22.07 | xrogaan | I'll probably try to migrate to lightdm and get rid of mate/slim. I don't know which DE to use instead though (beside fluxbox). |
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| 14:23.52 | _stephen_ | Slim not working for you? |
| 14:24.28 | _stephen_ | I started switching non devuan boxes to slim because it was easier to modify. |
| 14:25.35 | xrogaan | slim seems to be exclusive to xfce and mate. The other DE "requires" lightdm |
| 14:25.49 | _stephen_ | You can't just toggle to it with f1? |
| 14:25.49 | xrogaan | I don't really understand why, some permission issue. |
| 14:26.02 | _stephen_ | Or update the config to point at whatever session starts it? |
| 14:26.10 | _stephen_ | Or put it in your .xinitrc file and tell slim to run that? |
| 14:26.26 | KatolaZ | xrogaan: that's not true |
| 14:26.30 | xrogaan | I mean, if you try task-cinnamon-desktop, it'll try to install elogind and lightdm. |
| 14:26.46 | KatolaZ | you can still use slim/.consolekit with other DEs |
| 14:27.04 | KatolaZ | only, some of them (don't remember which) have glitches with session management |
| 14:27.11 | KatolaZ | if you use slim/consolekit |
| 14:28.09 | KatolaZ | the task-*-desktop packages include ythe conf that is known witout problems |
| 14:28.10 | _stephen_ | I like editing slim.conf so that login_cmd is set to run ~/.xinitrc via bash. Then the user sets up .xinitrc to run whatever wm or de they want. |
| 14:30.40 | xrogaan | well, I have an issue with console kit: Jun 11 20:16:36 Aasterinian dbus[2123]: [system] Failed to activate service 'org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit': timed out |
| 14:31.19 | xrogaan | every time I boot, that line pops up. And I can't login before it actually times out. |
| 14:32.47 | tom13 | have fluxbox here and it works just like my old tennis shoes do |
| 14:33.05 | tom13 | yeah ok, need to edit menus sometimes |
| 14:33.15 | tom13 | but it starts up with my terminals in the exact positions i want them |
| 14:33.15 | xrogaan | who uses menu anyhow? |
| 14:33.23 | tom13 | yeh |
| 14:33.43 | _stephen_ | I have fvwm here, I don't think it needs any dbus stuff... |
| 14:34.17 | tom13 | nice |
| 14:34.20 | tom13 | fbsetroot -solid black |
| 14:34.20 | tom13 | sleep 1s |
| 14:34.20 | tom13 | /usr/bin/urxvt -letsp 0 -geometry 100x31+0+0 -fn -gohu-gohufont-medium-r-normal--11-80-100-100-c-60-iso10646-1& |
| 14:34.42 | tom13 | all x programs should accept -geometry params, imo |
| 14:34.56 | _stephen_ | don't they all? |
| 14:34.56 | tom13 | not all do |
| 14:34.56 | xrogaan | I believe the issue to be linked to /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90Consolekit |
| 14:35.32 | tom13 | lxterm lets you specify size in characters, but not x,y offset. iirc. |
| 14:36.05 | xrogaan | because I don't get why dbus is trying to launch stuff when nobody's logged in. |
| 14:36.16 | _stephen_ | I don't really know what consolekit is for, so I can't help with the issue, but I guess you could change the timeout in there to at least log in sooner... |
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| 14:40.22 | tom13 | it was something they added to X to help manage logins/permissions? |
| 14:40.33 | tom13 | i have a cloud of bees in my head |
| 14:40.59 | tom13 | they are telling me to get another beer |
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| 15:32.47 | msiism | does slim use elogind/libpam-elogind (in ascii)? |
| 15:33.59 | KatolaZ | no msiism |
| 15:34.03 | KatolaZ | it uses consolekit |
| 15:34.13 | KatolaZ | but it could also use elogind, apparently |
| 15:38.44 | msiism | KatolaZ: ok, and lightdm? (i can't find the list right now...) |
| 15:41.47 | golinux | filipdevuan: Try claws mail |
| 15:42.17 | KatolaZ | msiism: AFAIK lightdm is known to work perfectly with elogind |
| 15:42.25 | KatolaZ | and to work "sometimes" with consolekit |
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| 15:43.23 | KatolaZ | but I don't know much about that |
| 15:43.34 | KatolaZ | you might want to ask Irrwahn |
| 15:45.46 | msiism | ok |
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| 15:59.11 | Wonka | got a 403 reply for http://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ceres/InRelease - something new every day... |
| 16:01.04 | KatolaZ | Wonka: have you retried? |
| 16:02.31 | KatolaZ | all the mirrors seem to be in place |
| 16:02.39 | KatolaZ | none of them gives a 403 |
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| 16:06.09 | Wonka | KatolaZ: still. |
| 16:06.26 | Wonka | 131.188.12.211 |
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| 16:12.35 | msiism | KatolaZ: i get the same result as Wonka |
| 16:13.24 | KatolaZ | msiism: tried now, it works |
| 16:14.15 | KatolaZ | all the files are in place, and reachable |
| 16:14.38 | msiism | KatolaZ: ok, still getting 403. |
| 16:15.09 | msiism | Wonka: where are you located (if i may ask)? |
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| 16:15.28 | KatolaZ | hold on |
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| 16:16.33 | Wonka | msiism: Germany |
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| 16:17.48 | Wonka | to reproduce: $ curl -H 'Host: deb.devuan.org' http://131.188.12.211/merged/dists/ceres/InRelease |
| 16:18.38 | KatolaZ | Wonka: it seem to depend on where you connect from |
| 16:18.45 | KatolaZ | let me investigate |
| 16:19.20 | msiism | Wonka: i'm also located in germany. |
| 16:19.49 | golinux | There was a report of a 403 on onefang's mirror but iirc he has bandwidth limitations. |
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| 16:21.33 | KatolaZ | they seem to have a problem in sync |
| 16:21.52 | KatolaZ | which is very strange |
| 16:22.11 | Wonka | family coming home, will be back later... possibly hours later... |
| 16:22.40 | KatolaZ | it has been temporarily removed from the pool |
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| 16:30.20 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 16:30.23 | KatolaZ | problem identified |
| 16:30.33 | tom_ | Why is Openssh and and MariaDB dependent on Libsystemd0 in ASCII? |
| 16:31.07 | KatolaZ | tom_: ask the openssh and mariaDB developers.... |
| 16:31.31 | KatolaZ | in the case of openssh, sshd uses it to try to notify systemd that it has started |
| 16:31.38 | KatolaZ | if systemd is pid1 |
| 16:31.43 | tom_ | KatolaZ, i thought Devuan patched them to make it not dependent |
| 16:31.47 | KatolaZ | I guess mariaDB does the same |
| 16:32.45 | KatolaZ | it systemd is not running, the lib does nothing |
| 16:33.23 | KatolaZ | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1925 |
| 16:33.40 | msiism | KatolaZ: ok, you were faster... :) |
| 16:33.40 | KatolaZ | tom_: we are working on that front as well |
| 16:33.51 | tom_ | but i can't apt-get purge libsystemd0 without it removing mariadb and openssh |
| 16:33.58 | KatolaZ | no tom_ you can't |
| 16:34.15 | tom_ | Then why is ASCII stable? |
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| 16:34.36 | KatolaZ | tom_: what's your problem mate? |
| 16:34.39 | tom_ | no offense, but this seems like the sort of thing your supposed to work out in testing |
| 16:34.44 | msiism | tom_: the forum post has the answers you'll need. |
| 16:34.55 | KatolaZ | tom_: this is the sort of things you can help out with |
| 16:35.31 | KatolaZ | I already said we are working in a more viable solution than forking all the packages that depend on libsystemd0 |
| 16:36.40 | tom_ | KatolaZ, if libsystemd0 really does not do anything, could i craft a dummy libsystemd0 package that contains no files, just sates the package dependencies? |
| 16:37.26 | KatolaZ | tom_: libsystemd just checks if systemd is running when called |
| 16:37.31 | KatolaZ | if it's not it does nothing |
| 16:37.45 | KatolaZ | if you don't believe that, please read the code |
| 16:37.56 | tom_ | it's from Debian yes? |
| 16:38.01 | KatolaZ | it is |
| 16:38.16 | tom_ | so the source would be in packages.debian.org |
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| 16:38.33 | KatolaZ | just apt-get source libsystemd0 |
| 16:39.24 | tom_ | ok thanks |
| 16:39.44 | tom_ | i'll audit the source |
| 16:39.57 | KatolaZ | please do |
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| 16:42.11 | tom_ | huh, sid already has a libsystemd-dummy |
| 16:42.34 | tom13 | we also have apulse |
| 16:42.39 | tom13 | don't forget glorious apulse |
| 16:44.18 | tom_ | It's so bad that that apulse even needs to be a thing |
| 16:45.49 | tom13 | someday we will find out why and how poettering accomplished this |
| 16:47.49 | tom_ | i hope they get what's coming to them |
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| 16:55.55 | Achylles | screenfetch gives me -> OS Unknown 2.0 ascii :( -> should be OS Devuan ascii |
| 16:56.30 | tom_ | Achylles, rn lsb-release -a |
| 16:56.56 | Achylles | do you mean rm |
| 16:57.46 | freem | Hello. Do anyone here already tryed brlcad, by luck? |
| 16:58.09 | tom_ | i mean run |
| 16:58.28 | tom_ | run lsb_release -a |
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| 17:00.02 | tom_ | Is that an alternative to FreeCAD freem ? |
| 17:00.19 | f00b4r0 | hi, quick question: is there a specific kernel requirement for ASCII? I've dist-upgraded a working Jessie with custom 3.16.56 and now it doesn't boot. Seems like init won't start (booting with init=/bin/sh works). Thanks |
| 17:00.40 | tom_ | it certainly looks interesting. I'll give that a try |
| 17:00.53 | freem | tom_, I'd say that FreeCAD is the alternative, since brlcad is dated from 1984. |
| 17:01.38 | tom_ | Yeah, looking at their website they still maintain IRIX binaries |
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| 17:02.36 | freem | from what I've seen of FreeCAD, it does not do too much, and tbh I can't find decent doc explaining how to do things. All docs seems to be messy, not always related to current version. So, I've searched for alternatives, yes. I found that FreeCAD may be youngest of the 3 FOSS CAD softwares I think might help me. |
| 17:02.58 | tom_ | my problem with FreeCAD as well |
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| 17:03.37 | tom_ | As well as it relying on deprecated libraries, making appimage the only practical way to use it |
| 17:03.39 | furrywolf | my experience is freecad has a zillion buttons, and claims to do a zillion things, but in reality, all the buttons do the exact same thing, which is segfault after you use more than about five of them. |
| 17:03.44 | freem | brlcad seems to need a lot of learning, though, but hey, the books (more than 1000 pages, IIRC) are free at least as in free beer, and well writen for the sample I've read. |
| 17:04.17 | furrywolf | I couldn't get freecad to run long enough to actually do anything |
| 17:04.26 | freem | tom_, about deprecated libs, brlcad is not even properly packaged, so.... but I don't really care, if it works. |
| 17:04.48 | tom_ | what is brlcad's license. it just says 'open source' |
| 17:04.53 | freem | furrywolf, I could not understand how the hell I am supposed to do something with freecad. |
| 17:05.24 | freem | tom_: from what I've read, a mix of GPL, LGPL and BSD (2 or 3, dunno). |
| 17:05.35 | furrywolf | freem: design a part as 2d extrusions and join them together... but it Just Doesn't Work. at least when I tried it. |
| 17:05.52 | tom_ | now FreeCAD on the other hand is great. I've made many things with it and even went to manufacturing. But i'm not sure if it can do 3d |
| 17:06.09 | freem | brlcad claims to have more than 400 tools, and to follow unix philosophy, too. |
| 17:06.32 | tom_ | unix philosophy 3d cad |
| 17:06.44 | freem | I've tryed openscad too, but it's not made to create assembles. Sadly. |
| 17:07.06 | tom_ | have you tried FreeCAD? |
| 17:07.20 | furrywolf | tom_: you actually managed to create an assembly of parts without it segfaulting? I couldn't get freecad to function beyond a basic 2d sketch, and even that usually crashed. |
| 17:07.51 | tom_ | furrywolf, oh my bad, i meant LibreCAD |
| 17:07.58 | KatolaZ | I have used qcad in the past for simple 2d stuff |
| 17:08.00 | freem | tom_, I did, but the interface is a mess, and cant' find decent doc. |
| 17:08.05 | KatolaZ | but I am not a cad user :) |
| 17:08.06 | furrywolf | tom_: ah |
| 17:08.08 | tom_ | LibreCAD I've actually used in prod |
| 17:08.22 | furrywolf | librecad, if I remember right, worked, but just didn't do a single thing I needed it to do. :P |
| 17:08.23 | tom_ | and I love LibreCAD, but i don't think it can handle 3d |
| 17:08.27 | KatolaZ | I think librecad == qcad these days, right? |
| 17:08.27 | tom_ | 2d only |
| 17:08.28 | freem | Ah, libreCAD seems to only do 2d drawings. GOod enough for many things I guess, but not tried. |
| 17:08.58 | freem | seems to be designed to build electronic cards, or stuff around that? |
| 17:09.30 | furrywolf | freecad has a really impressive feature list, but... doesn't work. it may, in fact, be the buggiest program I've ever used. there is some serious design philosophy error going on, as nothing that buggy should ever be be having new features added without the bugs being fixed. |
| 17:11.09 | f00b4r0 | help anyone? |
| 17:11.18 | tom_ | freem, i've made replacement tractor parts, industrial control panels, and box cutters with LibreCAD |
| 17:11.37 | furrywolf | "hey, our program can't stay running for more than five minutes... let's ignore that and keep working on new features that no one will actually be able to use because it'll crash before they get their part to needing them!" |
| 17:12.12 | tom_ | How do i install a .deb file with dependency resolution? i normally would use dpkg -i |
| 17:12.19 | freem | f00b4r0 maybe give more deatils on your error? |
| 17:12.40 | f00b4r0 | freem: kernel hangs at what seems to be init handover |
| 17:12.45 | freem | tom_: I do dpkg -i, read the lacking stuff, and use apt-get to install those. |
| 17:13.01 | f00b4r0 | apt-get -f install should work |
| 17:13.13 | furrywolf | tom_: have you found any working CAM software? |
| 17:14.11 | tom_ | furrywolf, I've just been using whatever is on the cutting machine. Which in this case has commonly been SheetCAM PRO |
| 17:14.30 | f00b4r0 | freem: I'd be happy to provide more info but so far I haven't been able to track down the problem. Sysrq shows no stuck task, the boot process just stops after mounting root |
| 17:14.30 | tom_ | I don't think it's open source but it seems to accept my .dxf files fine. |
| 17:14.47 | furrywolf | the only program I've yet to have generate a working toolpath is, sadly, brlcad. |
| 17:15.30 | furrywolf | actually, it wasn't brlcad. what's the other really old one? heh |
| 17:15.49 | furrywolf | heekscad! |
| 17:16.16 | tom_ | I can't seem to install brlcad. it has a dependency on some version of libpng that does not exist |
| 17:17.09 | furrywolf | pycam took literal days to generate broken toolpaths |
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| 17:18.20 | f00b4r0 | this is a standalone kernel (no initramfs) |
| 17:19.24 | freem | f00b4r0: after mounting root, the kernel should start the init system, which is one of the major things Devuan changes. Also, you said using init=/bin/sh works, so I'd check that the init system is installed correctly. |
| 17:19.53 | f00b4r0 | how do I check that? I dist-upgraded from 1.0, with no error (this is a fairly minimal system) |
| 17:20.03 | freem | tom_, yep, you can find that lib in debian's repos, for stable or old stable. |
| 17:20.46 | tom_ | only i can't freem |
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| 17:21.42 | freem | f00b4r0 hard to say. Both sysVinit and systemd use the same binary name (stupid, imho) instead of having their real names eventually symlinked to /sbin/init. So, I'd say, try to remove from the init=/bin/sh the init system completely (purge, in fact), and then, install it anew. Might work. |
| 17:21.47 | freem | tom_ why? |
| 17:21.49 | ffurrywol | bah! |
| 17:21.51 | ffurrywol | <furrywolf> sheetcam seems to be closed-source, and not suitable for my application... as the name suggests, it's for sheet work, while I'm running a 4-axis mill. :) |
| 17:21.51 | ffurrywol | <furrywolf> heekscad is the only program I've ever been able to get a working toolpath out of... and it's pretty painful to use. |
| 17:21.51 | ffurrywol | <furrywolf> haven't used it in a while. kinda gave up on cad... |
| 17:22.23 | tom_ | freem, It's not there |
| 17:22.31 | freem | what is not there? |
| 17:22.42 | tom_ | libpng12-0 |
| 17:23.10 | freem | tom_ here you are https://packages.debian.org/jessie/libpng12-0 |
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| 17:24.01 | freem | I'm using this one. Yes, it's dirty, I know, but it's a workaround. If I am successful in trying to use brlcad to do something, I will have some will to rework the package. |
| 17:24.10 | furrywolf | the dearth of working open-source cad has led me to often contemplate writing my own... but I really just don't have the time to do that. |
| 17:24.25 | tom_ | that's jessie |
| 17:24.52 | freem | There is no death there furry. Just not that many softwares, and I only know 2 (for 3D) that might be usable. |
| 17:25.04 | freem | tom_ is it a problem? libpng12 only depends on libc, IIRC. |
| 17:25.10 | furrywolf | deaRth. with an r. :) |
| 17:25.22 | tom_ | isn't that frakendebianing though? |
| 17:25.35 | freem | hum... I thought it was a typo, so, what does mean dearth? |
| 17:25.38 | Akuli | did you guys hear about https://www.preining.info/blog/2018/06/microsofts-failed-attempt-on-debian-packaging/ |
| 17:25.42 | furrywolf | dearth, noun, 1. an inadequate supply; scarcity; lack: |
| 17:25.50 | tom_ | installing jessie packages on stretch or ascii |
| 17:26.11 | freem | tom_: sure, it is, until someone recompile and repackage to correct that. Not hard to do, but hey, I don't wan't to work on a soft I'm not able to use ^^ |
| 17:26.19 | freem | ty furrywolf |
| 17:26.30 | furrywolf | freem: basically, it's a word that means exactly what you said. lol |
| 17:27.20 | freem | now, it may be frankendebianning, but, the fact is, that lib is nicely packaged, and fixing brlcad would fix that. Or, you can just install a Jessie, too. |
| 17:27.47 | tom_ | looks on purpose Akuli |
| 17:28.31 | furrywolf | I've had good luck frankendevuaning by installing older packages. it's installing newer ones that tends to lead to issues... |
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| 17:29.42 | freem | which is something I might have to do, maybe in a more classic system I would not see the small (but annoying) issues I do |
| 17:30.51 | tom_ | that's seems trivial |
| 17:30.52 | furrywolf | should remember to avoid using obscure english words on irc, given the internationality of irc. |
| 17:31.14 | tom_ | i could probably do that in my spare time and sumbit my package to devuan |
| 17:31.16 | freem | I tinkered too much with deb packages and apt-pinning to really worry at frankendebianing. Aptitude is slow when stuff are broken, but allows a really precise operation that allows to fix most stuff. If it can't, dpkg can, except if you played with really, really important packages. |
| 17:31.40 | freem | no furrywolf, it's good, it allows people to learn more. |
| 17:31.44 | tom_ | where is the documentation for becoming a DevuanDev? |
| 17:31.55 | tom_ | Devving Devuan |
| 17:32.00 | tom13 | it is like mad machician humphreys castle |
| 17:32.05 | furrywolf | freem: I've often managed to get debian to the point where tools simply refuse to function. |
| 17:32.09 | tom13 | you cannot get in unless you figure-out the way in, tom_ |
| 17:33.26 | freem | furrywolf, that's impressive, I only did that a few times. In the harshest times, I even had to untar packages by hand and copy files to their rightful locations. Some successes, even if I must admit I was not happy to do so. |
| 17:34.11 | tom_ | I ounce had to cross-compile python3 and get it working in a centos 5 webhost shell account |
| 17:34.15 | freem | So, back to CAD softwares, only brlcad, freecad, openscad and librecad known by name around? |
| 17:34.37 | freem | in the FOSS ones I mean |
| 17:34.39 | tom_ | and i didn't have permission to run chroot either |
| 17:34.57 | tom_ | was a ton of obscene LDPRELOADs |
| 17:34.59 | furrywolf | freem: I'm good at breaking things. :) |
| 17:35.20 | furrywolf | freem: heekscad/heekscnc _does work_. it's just painful. |
| 17:35.49 | furrywolf | heeks is the only thing I've managed to design a part in and get a working toolpath out of |
| 17:36.27 | freem | I'm new to CAD. What is a toolpath? |
| 17:37.19 | furrywolf | a toolpath is instructions for a machine to actually make the part. it could be how to move a plasma torch to cut a part from sheetmetal, or how to move an endmill to carve an object from a billet on a milling machine, for example. |
| 17:37.21 | tom13 | you need to mortgage your house to AutoDesk |
| 17:37.37 | furrywolf | if you're not going to be making the parts yourself, you might not need toolpath generation. |
| 17:37.38 | freem | I see |
| 17:38.09 | tom_ | you mean the gcode |
| 17:38.22 | tom_ | something to generate the gcode |
| 17:38.36 | furrywolf | making a toolpath is a function of CAM, computer aided manufacturing. if you're going to be just making drawings, not running machines, you probably don't need it. |
| 17:39.00 | furrywolf | tom_: yes, but if someone doesn't know what a toolpath is, I'm not going to give an explanation that depends on knowing what gcode is. :) |
| 17:39.44 | freem | I first wan't to learn CAD softwares for myself, probably will wan't to print pieces at least. But more advanced stuff would help a lot at work, even if I'm not myself in mechanic engineering. |
| 17:40.48 | furrywolf | for CAD/CAM help, #linuxcnc can be very good. the channel is specifically for the linuxcnc program, but general cad/cam is considered on-topic. |
| 17:41.13 | furrywolf | I got sick of a certain couple people there, so stopped hanging out there, but there are helpful people in the channel. |
| 17:41.48 | freem | ty for info |
| 17:42.07 | furrywolf | linuxcnc is a program for controlling machines, not a cad or cam program, so you're not going to need it for a while. |
| 17:42.38 | furrywolf | linuxcnc is the bit of software that takes your toolpath and controls the hardware based on it. |
| 17:43.58 | furrywolf | bbl... it's almost 11am and I'm still wearing almost nothing but fur... time to pretend I'm functional and get my day started. I hate being sick. bleh. |
| 17:45.38 | freem | hum... I'm looking at brlcad's dependencies, and there is nothing related to fonts and dialog boxes, except for a direct dependency on libx11 and libxi6... maybe X11 itself can provide such features? |
| 17:46.13 | freem | is motif embedded in X11? |
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| 18:34.11 | Achylles | tom_, lsb_release -a gives me Devuan |
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| 18:35.32 | Achylles | screenfetch does not support Devuan yet. So, I have uninstalled it and installed neofetch and it gives me a nice report including Devuan logo :) |
| 18:37.28 | r00tobo | Achylles: always use neofetch it's better |
| 18:39.46 | Achylles | :) |
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| 18:42.36 | Achylles | Now I have my Devuan running stumpwm and it is doing greatly -> https://youtu.be/tKt_rVO960Q |
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| 19:12.23 | horsemaster | Hi guys! |
| 19:12.35 | horsemaster | Just upgraded devuan jessie -> devuan ascii |
| 19:12.54 | horsemaster | And gpg was upgraded, and now my password isn't accepted by pinentry |
| 19:13.07 | horsemaster | anyone experienced anything similar? |
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| 19:30.12 | tom13 | no-one i touch with the information remains happy |
| 19:34.09 | freem | horsemaster this may be because between jessie and ascii, one or more crypt methods where deprecated. |
| 19:34.42 | freem | which does not mean I did experiment that, though. It's just a guess made without the exact error message. |
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| 19:35.21 | freem | Also, maybe there is something about that in the changelog. Again, I did not checked, but did you? |
| 19:35.55 | horsemaster | freem: I found https://rudd-o.com/linux-and-free-software/protecting-your-private-master-key-in-gnupg-2-1-and-later |
| 19:36.23 | horsemaster | And I have actually removed the secret master key, so I must read on how to accomplish that hardening afterwards. |
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| 19:38.01 | freem | horsemaster, so, are you trying to start using gpg stuff to learn, or do you understand how to use it and had problems caused by the update you did between 2 major versions of Devuan? |
| 19:38.34 | horsemaster | freem: I have been using gpg since 1½ years |
| 19:38.49 | horsemaster | upgrade from gpg1 -> gpg2 caused my problem |
| 19:40.55 | freem | Good, because I have not used gpg a lot (using it a bit for fun at work, sure, but, can't say it's useful since I'm alone doing that for signing commits and mails). But I've kept an eye from far on upgrades, and I think your problem is that certain methods were marked deprecated. |
| 19:41.21 | freem | That was my original idea, which seems confirmed by "upgrade from gpg1 -> gpg2 caused my problem" |
| 19:43.00 | freem | I would guess that you created weak keys through gpg1, and that while moving from v1 to v2, the methods and/or number of key's bits you used where broken by someone, and so, considered harmful. So, the software says it's not safe. |
| 19:43.46 | freem | Now, the question is, do you need to keep access to things encrypted with previous version? |
| 19:45.13 | horsemaster | yes, I use gpg to encrypt passwords for use in 'pass' |
| 19:45.57 | freem | is it gpg, or gnupg you use? |
| 19:46.38 | horsemaster | The change seem to be that you need the secret master-key, which you could delete in gpg1 to make a certain install harder (no secret master key, no way to sign others keys, but using encryption and signing subkeys made it possible for other uses). |
| 19:46.45 | horsemaster | gnupg |
| 19:48.02 | freem | good, it's the thing I have a (very little) experience with. I doubt I can help you more than asking questions that might trigger a good idea into your or someone else's mind however. |
| 19:49.21 | freem | so, if I understand correctly, between gnupg1 and gnupg2, somehow, the need of the masterkey was added to decipher something enciphered with a child key? |
| 19:49.30 | freem | this sounds strange to me. |
| 19:51.23 | horsemaster | freem: yes. Or rather, in gpg1, you could remove the master key and use subkeys for encryption/decryption and signing. |
| 19:52.02 | horsemaster | in gpg2 you need the secret master key, and you can make it more secure some other way I still haven't read up on |
| 19:54.28 | freem | And gnupg2 refuses you to decipher something enciphered with a child key if you do not have the master key? |
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| 20:01.27 | horsemaster | freem: seems so |
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| 20:06.49 | freem | any error message? I would be surprise if there is no compat mode |
| 20:10.17 | horsemaster | The error message is "no secret key found". |
| 20:10.57 | horsemaster | I haven't researched a compatability mode. That would be equivalent to a "downgrade attack", so I don't think there is any |
| 20:18.20 | horsemaster | time for sleep. |
| 20:19.00 | horsemaster | nightie nightie (I am also known as "Hestben" idling on my server, but I couldn't ssh without my passwords in pass). |
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| 20:19.32 | aitor | hi |
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| 20:27.35 | aitor | talking about CAD software... better alternatives to AutoDesk are (i'm talking only about software compatible with the dominant .dwg format) BricsCAD or DraftSight |
| 20:27.57 | aitor | neither of them are free |
| 20:34.57 | aitor | the first one must be paid (but with significantly lower prices comparing with AutoDesk, and including technical support), and the second one offers a gratuite 2D version (as far as i know) |
| 20:35.29 | freem | aitor, interesting. |
| 20:36.05 | aitor | freem: time to dinner, be back later :) |
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| 20:44.26 | Wonka | KatolaZ: thanks |
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| 20:47.38 | aitor | another quote: BricsCAD is compatible with AutoLISP (AutoDesk's own version of the LISP language, used in parametrized drawing) |
| 20:47.52 | aitor | bbl |
| 20:49.05 | nik_ | Hi, I try to run devuan(dom0) with the xen hypervisor |
| 20:49.51 | nik_ | It's a fresh install of Ascii |
| 20:49.52 | nik_ | but it doesn't load |
| 20:49.54 | nik_ | does anyone know where i should look for problems? |
| 20:50.27 | freem | nik_, what do you mean, it does not load? |
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| 20:50.40 | nik_ | i only see 5 lines |
| 20:50.45 | nik_ | load xen kernel |
| 20:51.03 | nik_ | warn: no console will be available to OS |
| 20:51.11 | nik_ | load linux kernel |
| 20:51.16 | nik_ | and finally |
| 20:51.35 | nik_ | load init ramdisk or something |
| 20:51.40 | nik_ | and then it stops |
| 20:53.09 | freem | dom0 is the virtual machine that allows to manage other VMs, am I right? Can you provide it a different init for a try, like /bin/sh? |
| 20:54.42 | nik_ | you mean by specifying those options at boottime |
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| 20:54.54 | nik_ | (you're right about dom0) |
| 20:55.08 | freem | yep, I meant that |
| 20:56.30 | nik_ | what's the purpose of a different init? |
| 20:57.19 | freem | using /bin/sh as init would allow to determine if the problem is before or after linux tries to run /sbin/init |
| 20:57.31 | freem | it's only to reduce the search sphere |
| 20:58.32 | nik_ | so i would get a shell then before /sbin/init? |
| 20:59.49 | freem | exact. This can also allow to bypass the login phase, when you forgot root password |
| 21:00.24 | nik_ | :) good to know (yes i'm newbie) |
| 21:00.47 | nik_ | In which logs would i then best look |
| 21:01.00 | freem | that "flaw" can be fixed by properly setting the boot manager, though, but, I think it's too useful and not known enough to fix it, considering people needs physical access to computer anyway |
| 21:01.14 | freem | logs? |
| 21:01.49 | freem | what do you mean, in which log? |
| 21:02.08 | nik_ | after i run /bin/sh |
| 21:02.18 | nik_ | i run /sbin/init? |
| 21:02.36 | nik_ | if it hangs like before |
| 21:02.58 | nik_ | where should i find info of what it did |
| 21:04.45 | freem | I'll try to do it quick, but it might be a bit long and complicated anyway. |
| 21:06.01 | freem | 1st, the computer (virtual or not) runs a firmware. That firmware gives the control to a program named a "boot manager" (can be lilo, grub, syslinux, and a lot more), that will then give control to a system. |
| 21:07.26 | freem | That system can be either a disk image that contains everything needed for next steps, or directly a kernel. Nowadays, from what I understand (I'm not an expert), distros uses a disk image. |
| 21:08.22 | freem | Anyway, at a point, a kernel is loaded, and it must be able to load drivers needed to prepare the base system before starting the 1st processus, which is tradiionally /sbin/init. |
| 21:09.26 | freem | You can provide to linux a different PID1 filename though, with the command line argument "init=foobar" foobar being the absolute path of the init binary on the root partition. |
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| 21:10.22 | nik_ | ok |
| 21:10.27 | freem | In theory, the init system should start all daemons, and mount all remaining partitions, eventually remounting root partition to make it writable. This happens with real init systems. |
| 21:11.10 | freem | Not if you force the kernel to use /bin/sh, which is just a shell, and so, gives you a system that can't work properly before you do things by hand |
| 21:11.54 | freem | I hope I did not say too many wrong things and you understood the global way current systems boot |
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| 21:12.43 | nik_ | ok, so i would also need to know the original init parameters that i replaced |
| 21:13.05 | nik_ | because after i run the shell, i need to be able to continue the system |
| 21:13.41 | freem | exact, but then, depending on your partitionning scheme, you should be able to read /etc/fstab |
| 21:14.08 | freem | so, you should be able to just mount things with a good old "mount -a" |
| 21:15.28 | nik_ | yes, but, now i have 2 options at boot time |
| 21:15.49 | nik_ | to boot the normal kernel or to boot the kernel with the xen hypervisor |
| 21:15.55 | freem | ah |
| 21:16.08 | nik_ | and the normal kernel works |
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| 21:17.01 | nik_ | xen is 4.8 and linux is 4.9 |
| 21:17.58 | freem | hum |
| 21:18.44 | freem | do you load the same modules in the normal kernel and the xen kernel? |
| 21:20.12 | nik_ | i don't know |
| 21:20.38 | nik_ | I installed the xen system via aptitude |
| 21:20.56 | nik_ | i didn't modify configs or such |
| 21:21.02 | freem | to know the list of modules loaded, there is the command lsmod |
| 21:21.32 | freem | I never tried that when using /bin/sh as init system though |
| 21:22.29 | nik_ | Ok, thanks. I have a starting point now. |
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| 21:22.36 | nik_ | I'll try it tomorrow |
| 21:22.54 | crimson_king | Hey, is uswsusp used for hibernation? |
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| 22:45.41 | Acacia | Hi I know Devuan supports installing with openrc, but is there an easy way of swapping from sysvinit to openrc on an already done installation? I'd like to compare the 2 a bit. |
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| 23:32.37 | gnarface | Acacia: i'm pretty sure it's possible if you know what you're doing |
| 23:32.45 | gnarface | but i don't know how easy it is |
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| 23:38.50 | fsmithred | Acacia, 'apt-get install openrc' - I suggest using a terminal in a graphical session so you can copy/paste the command that you will be instructed to run. |
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| 23:48.47 | gnu_srs1 | Acacia: Jut apt-get install openrc. Simple, right :( |