| 00:19.55 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 00:19.55 | *** topic/#devuan is Latest (2018-05-10): ASCII 2.0.0 release candidate is out! http://tinyurl.com/y9pta5vm || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs: https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan |
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| 00:55.27 | addop | I'm installing Devuan on a Thinkpad, and I don;t thnk it's detecting my network. The wifi card is nonfree. Does Devuan not have binary blobs? |
| 01:01.27 | addop | Hello? |
| 01:09.13 | specing | addop: is /lib/firmware mostly empty? then yes |
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| 01:21.18 | god_ | Research how Debian manages non-free components. It'll go in your sources.list |
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| 01:32.42 | golinux | addop: Devuan has binary blobs but only if a user allows it. Were you not asked during installation? |
| 01:33.01 | golinux | What iso did you use? |
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| 04:37.07 | KatolaZ | addop: which thinkpad? |
| 04:50.35 | addop | KatolaZ: T400 |
| 04:53.44 | addop | golinux: I used the netinst iso, the one which was supposed to come with less prepackaged things, because I had some specific packages in mind. |
| 04:59.59 | buZz | jessie's netinst didnt have them i think |
| 05:01.01 | buZz | i usually just installed them on ethernet and removed the connection from interfaces later :) |
| 05:01.20 | buZz | install* |
| 05:01.33 | buZz | my aptcache is faster on gbit anyway :P |
| 05:11.30 | KatolaZ | addop: all the non-free available firmware are already available in the install media |
| 05:11.58 | KatolaZ | if your wifi card is supported, the firmware should already be there |
| 05:32.48 | addop | buZz: Should I use CD or DVD instead? Should I be using Ascii's netinst? |
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| 05:34.13 | KatolaZ | addop: all the install media have the same set of non-free firmware, if this is what your question is about |
| 05:35.46 | addop | KatolaZ: Ok, thanks. I'm pretty sure that the card is supported (it's a very generic, old, stock one). Next best option is to go to the command line and fiddle with wpa_supplicant then? |
| 05:38.28 | KatolaZ | addop: which chipset? |
| 05:39.08 | KatolaZ | addop: apparently lenovo calls "T400" two different things/ |
| 05:39.09 | KatolaZ | ? |
| 05:39.43 | addop | KatolaZ: I don't remember which. This is the old Thinkpad, the |
| 05:39.47 | KatolaZ | ok |
| 05:39.50 | addop | smaller version of the T500. |
| 05:40.13 | KatolaZ | and you are sure that the wifi card works, right? |
| 05:40.33 | KatolaZ | (had a dead wifi on an x220 very recently, hence the question :D) |
| 05:40.57 | addop | I was using Void Linux on it not long ago. |
| 05:41.31 | addop | It had wifi troubles from the beginning with it - I had to manually mangle wpa_supplicant every time. |
| 05:42.02 | addop | It started giving rtnetlink io errors more and more often, but that might have been Void Linux's immaturity |
| 05:42.06 | addop | tbh, I don't know |
| 05:42.49 | addop | I actually brought a libre chipset, but for it to work, I'll apparently have to Libreboot it. Yikes. |
| 05:43.09 | addop | ( |
| 06:08.05 | addop | Sorry about wasting your time. Thanks for the help. |
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| 15:23.22 | Vall | Hello everyone, and please accept my (late) kudos for the release of the ASCII RC! |
| 15:23.51 | Vall | I've just installed it in a VM and I'm playing with it right now, looking forward to install it on all my machines. |
| 15:29.41 | Vall | Question: `find / -iname '*systemd*'` shows some files... about the same as in Devuan 1.0.0 Jessie. Is it the same thing as in Jessie, ie, just enough to enable porting/running of the Debian packages that are inevitably dependent on systemd? |
| 15:30.15 | Vall | And another question: until when will Jessie, as the LTS so far, be supported? |
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| 15:41.41 | muep | Vall: many such files are not removed just because they do not do anything unless you run systemd |
| 15:42.15 | muep | e.g. anything that some package ships under /lib/systemd/system/ |
| 15:42.50 | Vall | muep: OK, I've seen that with ZFSOnLinux |
| 15:43.31 | Vall | muep: so the default init system is goode-olde sysvinit, correct? |
| 15:43.35 | muep | AFAIK other inits or programs in general do not care about those service descriptions that would get used by systemd if it is present |
| 15:43.56 | muep | Vall: yes it is sysvinit |
| 15:44.02 | Vall | great ;-) |
| 15:44.26 | Vall | sysvinit is IMHO a great upgrade from every other init system that came before it |
| 15:44.45 | Vall | and also from every other init system that came AFTER it (at least so far) |
| 15:44.48 | Vall | :-) |
| 15:45.39 | Vall | muep: do you happen to know until when will Devuan Jessie 1.0.0 LTS be supported? |
| 15:46.07 | Vall | (I plan on moving all my machines to ASCII as soon as possible, but for some it's complicated as they are in production...) |
| 15:46.47 | muep | Vall: I do not know I'd expect someone else here to have some idea. I think a reasonable guess would be that devuan jessie LTS support to roughly match that of debian Jessie LTS |
| 15:48.55 | Vall | OK. Because at Devuan 1.0.0 launch, people were talking about "more than the lifespan of Debian Jessie" (which is July/2020) |
| 15:49.11 | Vall | So I think it should be safe to keep it running until mid-2020 or so |
| 15:49.22 | Vall | (2 years to migrate everything should be enough). |
| 15:49.47 | Vall | Another question: will Devuan Beowulf be a "rolling distro" like Debian Buster? |
| 15:58.10 | muep | I don't think Debian buster is a rolling distro. it is an in-development versio that when complete, will be a stable release like stretch is now |
| 16:06.37 | Vall | muep: hummrmr... I must have understood something wrong then |
| 16:07.02 | muep | it kinda looks like a rolling distribution during its development while it is in progress |
| 16:07.17 | muep | but the eventual result is a yet another debian stable release |
| 16:09.43 | Vall | muep: makes sense. |
| 16:09.58 | Vall | sigh... a real rolling release would be great... |
| 16:10.07 | Vall | (in theory at least) |
| 16:11.02 | muep | I am currently looking more at ways to make it easy to have a specific version of something in the few individual cases where it matters |
| 16:12.12 | muep | it does not matter than much what the version of less I have |
| 16:12.35 | muep | bit for a tool like Gimp it can make a huge difference if you have 2.8 or 2.10 |
| 16:17.05 | MinceR | sid/ceres is rolling, afaik |
| 16:27.03 | muep | I would not call even that rolling, because content in there needs to be suitable for getting promoted to testing. during freeze time before a stable release, this substantially limits what kinds of updates can be made to unstable |
| 16:27.21 | muep | and the freeze tends to last for months |
| 16:30.04 | Vall | muep: it makes sense |
| 16:30.08 | Vall | (again) |
| 16:32.53 | Vall | muep: regarding "ways to make it easy to have a specific version of something in the few individual cases where it matters", what I do here is run whatever it is inside a full-blow VM with whatever OS it runs on. But now that I've LXC on all my machines, my idea is to start doing that with containers. |
| 16:33.39 | Vall | perhaps a sid container in an ascii machine would be the way to go for that... |
| 16:36.01 | muep | containers are often much nicer than VMs, though currently I would not feel comfortable using them for server applications in production |
| 16:36.06 | Vall | regarding newest versions of gimp, I'm still running 2.6.9 here, does everything I want (and I still haven't gotten over gimp 2.8's "change" of not allowing save to non-xcf formats and forcing me to use "File / Export"... mightly inconvenient for my normal workflow. |
| 16:36.55 | muep | save is a save just fine, even if it is named export |
| 16:37.45 | muep | I'm not that much of a heavy gimp user either, but I recall hearing that 2.10 brings support for many fairly major things |
| 16:37.47 | Vall | muep: after meltdown/spectre, I do not feel comfortable running trusted/untrusted code in *any* way on the same hardware, even using full-blow hypervisored VMs... |
| 16:37.58 | muep | like higher precicion color and suchlike |
| 16:38.16 | muep | this wasn't really about running untrusted code |
| 16:38.23 | muep | at least on my end |
| 16:38.28 | Vall | Hummrm |
| 16:38.40 | Vall | "save is a save just fine, even if it is named export" |
| 16:38.47 | Vall | I must be doing something wrong |
| 16:39.01 | Vall | lemme check (gimp 2.8.10 here) |
| 16:40.17 | Vall | OK, here's the test: |
| 16:40.31 | Vall | gimp test.jpg |
| 16:40.35 | Vall | (opens allright) |
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| 16:41.23 | muep | it is just named export because it is a lossy save, same as with how saving to pdf is often called "export" |
| 16:41.33 | Vall | File / Save As, then enter "test2.jpg": gives me an error window saying "The given filename can't be using for saving" |
| 16:41.42 | Vall | But it was already lossy when opened... |
| 16:41.59 | Vall | so what is the point of interrupting my workflow and denying me the save? |
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| 16:42.43 | Leander | select "export" in the file menu, or use ctrl+e |
| 16:43.06 | muep | no it is lossy in the sense that you lose all the state of the program that it would place in its native format |
| 16:43.21 | Vall | Leander, muep: yes I know about Export. But it sucks, specially when your workflow is to quit and then use the "save" option in the quitting dialog |
| 16:43.45 | Vall | muep: yes, but there was no state in the original .jpg either, so again what is the point? |
| 16:43.57 | muep | but I don't really wish to argue about Gimp UI design, I just brought it up as an example of a tool where you might really need some new feature that is in the most recent version |
| 16:44.11 | Vall | The old gimp versions would warn me I would lose transparency/etc but let me save anyway |
| 16:44.23 | Vall | muep: ok ;-) |
| 16:44.39 | Leander | I always save documents before I exit programs, so I never had that problem |
| 16:45.07 | Vall | muep, Leander; Not trying to argue either. But I would be really happy if you knew of a way to revert to the old behavior |
| 16:46.29 | Leander | I have no idea |
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| 17:19.54 | Vall | Leander: :-( |
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| 18:27.59 | Vall | hey golinux, how are you doing? |
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| 19:38.20 | al3xus | hi all! i am using devuan since august 2016. now i am running devian jessie 1 stable and i want to upgrade to ascii (https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/upgrade-to-ascii)... so i need your feedback to know if it is really safe and what could be the major problems... please... thanks in advance |
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| 19:43.38 | al3xus | hey please... nobody who has upgraded from jessie to ascii here? |
| 19:44.22 | gnu_srs | al3xus: Of course. Which desktop to you use? |
| 19:46.04 | al3xus | i ma using mate |
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| 19:47.07 | al3xus | kernel 4.6.0-0.bpo.1-rt-amd64 |
| 19:48.00 | buZz | i did such upgrades often |
| 19:48.06 | buZz | backport kernel, bah :P |
| 19:48.33 | al3xus | buZz: i needed a rt kernel... |
| 19:48.42 | buZz | build it yourself :P |
| 19:50.07 | al3xus | i want be sure avoid problems during upgrade: no time to perform a fresh complete reinstallation... |
| 19:50.53 | al3xus | is the procedure here (https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/upgrade-to-ascii) safe? |
| 19:51.03 | al3xus | suggestions? |
| 19:52.10 | al3xus | note i have a md raid1, and qemu-kvm with some vm... |
| 19:52.51 | al3xus | and some packages i build myself |
| 19:52.57 | Vall | Looking for suggestions on lightweight Desktop Environments... do not need many features, just multiple desktops (essential for me), able to support a good terminal program for my CLIs and run well Chrome and Firefox, plus a reasonable point-and-click file manager for the wife. |
| 19:53.23 | golinux_ | <Vall> hey golinux, how are you doing? |
| 19:53.29 | debdog | Murphy's law suggests not to do an upgrade if time is pressing |
| 19:53.35 | golinux_ | You gon't really wan to know. Trust me. |
| 19:53.46 | Vall | golinux Ok ;-) |
| 19:54.03 | Vall | golinux_: hope it does get better for you, anyway |
| 19:55.49 | al3xus | <debdog> i know... you are right... i am asking here to evaluate the risk... |
| 19:56.37 | al3xus | <Vall> mate or openbox... |
| 19:56.52 | Vall | my current short list is fluxbox, fvwm and icewm (ordered by disk space usage after install as shown by the `apt-get install` initial message) |
| 19:57.02 | Vall | sorry, forgot openbox |
| 19:57.20 | Vall | the complete short list is fluxbox, fvwm, openbox and icewm. |
| 19:57.45 | Vall | al3xus: why not fluxbox or fvwm? |
| 19:58.44 | Vall | MATE in principle is off, it uses a *lot* of RAM and disk space... |
| 19:59.36 | debdog | al3xus: I'll put it this way: I was glad I've cloned the system before upgrading to ascii. I have issues with fglrx vs. amdgpu and for unknown reason the upgraded system does not have ipv6 support. |
| 19:59.38 | al3xus | <Vall> i just tried fluxbox and openbox... not fvwm... and prefer openbox |
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| 20:00.29 | Vall | al3xus: nice to hear it. Why did openbox worked better for you? |
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| 20:02.17 | al3xus | <Vall> quite "complete" and better "experience"... anyway am using mate, which requires a bit more resources but is quite "complete" (being a gnome2 fork) |
| 20:03.01 | al3xus | <debdog> thank you... so you are still with jessie? |
| 20:04.13 | Vall | al3xus: I'm looking for something *way* more minimalistic than MATE or gnome2 ;-) |
| 20:04.58 | Vall | I think I will try fvwm, I used to run it from the mid-90s until about 5 years ago, and it didn't give me too much crap. |
| 20:05.21 | Vall | I just checked and it's being more-or-less activelly developed: https://github.com/fvwmorg/fvwm |
| 20:06.14 | al3xus | <Vall> maybe this could help you to choose: https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/openbox-guide |
| 20:06.33 | Vall | hummrmrmrmr |
| 20:06.49 | Vall | just installed fvwm but it doesn't come with a startx script... |
| 20:07.43 | al3xus | <debdog> please... which processor and video card are you using? |
| 20:07.43 | debdog | al3xus: I have both. atm on ascii but there's a jessie to fall back on |
| 20:08.26 | debdog | al3xus: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4690K CPU @ 3.50GHz; [AMD/ATI] Bonaire XTX [Radeon R7 260X/360] |
| 20:08.50 | debdog | Sea Island. only experimantal support right now |
| 20:09.45 | Vall | OK, X itself wasn't installed :-P |
| 20:09.51 | Vall | LOL |
| 20:10.04 | Vall | amazing that it isn't a dependency for fvwm |
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| 20:12.31 | al3xus | <debdog> ok. thank you. i am using cpu amd FX 4300 and video Radeon HD 5450... |
| 20:13.17 | al3xus | <debdog> there is any documentation about these video issues with ascii? |
| 20:15.15 | buZz | wtf is this |
| 20:15.18 | buZz | <buZz> wtf is this |
| 20:15.40 | buZz | oh, just a new irc-er ;) |
| 20:15.52 | buZz | i was thinking a uninvited relay ^_^ |
| 20:15.56 | debdog | al3xus: not that I am aware of. but that isn't related to devuan only, any distro with 'newer' kernel does face this. performance wise I'd be fine with using radeon driver but it has one little quirk which really annoys me. so I am searching for any way to get either fglrx or amdgpu to work with my ascii |
| 20:17.06 | buZz | i had a hard time getting proprietary nvidia setup in ascii , but after ..10-20 retries i finally had it working well |
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| 20:33.44 | al3xus | have to go... thanks for your help... bye |
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| 20:46.52 | Vall | OK, just figured out why xorg is not a dependency for fvwm... |
| 20:47.09 | Vall | it could be run remotely from *another* machine running the X server |
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| 21:35.19 | aitor | hi |
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| 21:36.30 | aitor | i pushe the code of a Gtk logout dialog for openbox: |
| 21:36.32 | aitor | https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/ob-session-logout/tree/master |
| 21:37.14 | aitor | here you are the packages: |
| 21:37.14 | aitor | http://gnuinos.org/ob-session-logout/ |
| 21:40.46 | Vall | Nice! |
| 21:40.52 | aitor | now i want to do it multilingual, but i need to learn the following tutorial: |
| 21:40.54 | aitor | http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/gettext.html |
| 21:40.59 | aitor | horror! |
| 21:41.54 | Vall | fvwm is working good here on Devuan ASCII, only 45MB RAM usage for X, FVWM, xterm *AND* the extra bash shell where I ran the "free" command ;-) |
| 21:42.33 | Vall | (when compared to the same machine *before* running `startx` to load X, FVWM, etc) |
| 21:43.45 | Vall | *and*, the standard fvwm immediately accepted and ran my old FVWM config from more than 5 years ago... just restored ~/.fvwm from my backups and BOOM, it worked |
| 21:44.07 | Vall | I think we got a winner ;-) |
| 21:45.54 | aitor | the logout dialog might work with FVWM... |
| 21:46.26 | Vall | aitor: I will never know... not running a display manager here ;-) |
| 21:46.33 | Vall | I log into text mode and then `startx` ;-) |
| 21:47.43 | Vall | Why keep X and the DM and whatever the heck the DM needs (mdm runs a handful of daemons even while at the initial "login" window) when there's no user at the machine? |
| 22:00.52 | aitor | bye, ~ 00:00 here |
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| 22:14.24 | Vall | Humrmrmr... just installed firefox-esr with apt-get. Started it and got a page saying it's outdated? |
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| 22:16.08 | Vall | Humrmrmrm |
| 22:16.45 | Vall | and Firefox's own "release-notes" page says it was released on May 9, 2018 |
| 22:16.50 | Vall | So false alarm, I guess... |
| 22:21.50 | merzbow | pages may assume that quantum is the most up to date, ff-esr is based off of ff52 so that may show up |
| 22:22.45 | Vall | merzbow: good explanation |
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| 22:25.52 | mchasard | hi i just install fluxuan ... |
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| 22:27.29 | debdog | sounds like a DeLorean sans systemd |
| 22:29.26 | mchasard | don't know delorean sorry |
| 22:34.48 | MinceR | most DeLoreans lack systemd |
| 22:35.10 | MinceR | most of them also lack a flux capacitor though :> |
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| 22:38.25 | debdog | sad but true (for the latter) |
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