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| 00:11.03 | golinux | Will I break anything if I nuke vim? |
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| 00:13.17 | debdog | why would it? |
| 00:13.20 | debdog | no |
| 00:13.52 | phogg | it would be a good idea to make sure you have at least one console text editor still installed |
| 00:14.24 | debdog | right, but one would not ask that question if one hadn't |
| 00:21.00 | vvande | golinux, also check what the system default is and put something there which you actually have |
| 00:22.15 | golinux | I use nano. Have never touched vim |
| 00:22.42 | golinux | It's history. |
| 00:23.02 | golinux | Thanks. |
| 00:29.30 | nacelle | such power, tossed aside :( |
| 00:34.44 | golinux | A corvette would be just as useless to me |
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| 01:47.33 | Tetralet_ | Hi, I trying to do an upgrade from a clean installed Devuan Jessie to Devuan Ascii, but not succeeded. |
| 01:48.09 | Tetralet_ | https://paste.debian.net/1019349/ # It's the apt-get dist-upgrade log. |
| 01:48.15 | Tetralet_ | Any idea? |
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| 01:53.39 | Tetralet_ | `apt-get install eudev -t ceres' is a workaround of this problem... |
| 01:55.52 | fsmithred | better idea is to install it from ascii-proposed |
| 01:56.17 | fsmithred | deb http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan ascii-proposed/main |
| 01:57.01 | Tetralet_ | fsmithred: I'll try it. Thanks! |
| 01:57.07 | fsmithred | install eudev=3.2.2-13 libeudev1=3.2.2-13 udev=1:3.2.2+devuan2.11 |
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| 03:11.53 | agris | is there a reason to have another entire Debian fork vs following https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRC on a stock Debian system? |
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| 03:12.31 | agris | genuine question not trying to bait anyone |
| 03:13.56 | drawkula | that page is from 2015-09-10 17:33:06 and probably only applies to pre-systemd-debian |
| 03:14.24 | agris | there is still a openrc package in stable Debian 9 |
| 03:14.53 | drawkula | test it |
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| 03:16.02 | AlexLikeRock | #devuan-mx itsdevuan at spanish , welcome all |
| 03:16.26 | drawkula | ??? |
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| 04:23.49 | golinux | agris: systemd is about more than init. |
| 04:26.54 | agris | drawkula, so i setup a basic xfce debian 9 vm, here goes apt install openrc sysvinit-core bootchart2 policycoreutils |
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| 04:30.52 | golinux | It you want Debian help there are Debian channels for that. |
| 04:31.00 | agris | strange, it looks like the system booted in OpenRC, but systemctl still exists? maybe an apt purge will fix that |
| 04:31.27 | nacelle | smells a wheel being reinvented |
| 04:31.30 | golinux | This isn't a debisn help channel |
| 04:31.46 | agris | golinux, i don't nneed Debian help. I was asking why Devuan exists when OpenRC can be used on stock Debian |
| 04:32.02 | agris | drawkula, recommended i try doing that and see what happens |
| 04:32.07 | golinux | <golinux> agris: systemd is about more than init. |
| 04:32.17 | agris | what do you mean? |
| 04:32.28 | furrywolf | agris: I take it you have never actually TRIED changing the init system on debian? |
| 04:32.28 | golinux | Some devuan users have openrc installed |
| 04:32.50 | agris | furrywolf, no, not on Debian. I'm normally working on Gentoo systems |
| 04:32.59 | golinux | systemd dependencies have invaded every corner of user space |
| 04:33.14 | furrywolf | if you use anything else, most major applications and desktop environments are uninstallable. |
| 04:33.27 | golinux | It's becoming a monolithic systemd OS |
| 04:33.34 | furrywolf | and many of those that you can install don't work partially or fully. |
| 04:34.04 | furrywolf | for example, login managers might depend on working systemd to allow logins, and to shut down the system later. |
| 04:35.12 | agris | OH MY GOD your are right, i just run #apt remove systemd, it's trying to remove virtually every single package including libreoffice and VLC! |
| 04:35.24 | drawkula | \o/ |
| 04:35.26 | golinux | There you go. |
| 04:35.47 | golinux | agris: You're just waking up to the horror |
| 04:35.56 | golinux | Thet's why the fork |
| 04:36.11 | golinux | not because of init alone |
| 04:36.25 | furrywolf | "sure, we'll let you install a different init system... as long as you don't actually plan on installing anything else on the box." |
| 04:36.35 | agris | http://imgur.com/zVeSt9hl.png |
| 04:37.27 | furrywolf | agris: actually, that's not as bad as usual. it's only suggesting their removal because it's removing the tasks. |
| 04:40.50 | agris | this is repulsive! |
| 04:41.04 | agris | i actually recommended Debian to people |
| 04:42.05 | gnarface | used to, too |
| 04:42.20 | golinux | agris: Please read this. http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/kernel/1408.1/02496.html |
| 04:42.47 | golinux | It's quite an education! We knew about this 4 years ago!! |
| 04:44.43 | golinux | agris: If systemd were only an init we wouldn't be here. |
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| 04:51.34 | agris | how |
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| 04:52.48 | furrywolf | curls up on golinux's feet for bedtime |
| 04:53.22 | drawkula | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNUGjFzenq4 <<< like an anti-systemd ad but has some points... |
| 04:53.29 | drawkula | @ agris |
| 04:53.36 | golinux | could have used that yesterday . . . it was COLD! |
| 04:54.07 | agris | This Porttering guy talks about leaving out the POSIX parts |
| 04:54.42 | furrywolf | heh... weather here is being bipolar. the last three days were a major storm, rivers just below flood stage, etc... today it was bright sun and so fucking hot I had to turn the fans on for the first time this year. |
| 04:54.43 | drawkula | it is ok to create a nonUXish OS based on a linux kernel |
| 04:54.49 | drawkula | but why debian???? |
| 04:54.50 | golinux | He talks about leaving out a lot of standard tools |
| 04:55.02 | drawkula | well... I'm here now |
| 04:55.22 | drawkula | after >20yrs with debian it really did hurt |
| 04:55.23 | golinux | Debian jumped the redhat shark |
| 04:55.30 | agris | I mean i knew something was seriously wrong when GTK3 came out and my programs started looking all weird but no idea it was this bad |
| 04:55.41 | golinux | I was Debian for 10 years |
| 04:55.50 | agris | Gnome3 requiring an init system for some reason, but i don't use gnome |
| 04:56.19 | gnarface | it's all my fault. they did this to debian because i told everyone it was better than redhat :( |
| 04:56.49 | drawkula | can we exchange the kernel too? >:-) |
| 04:56.58 | drawkula | netbsd + apt would be nice |
| 04:56.59 | drawkula | :-) |
| 04:57.11 | agris | i uninstalled pulse on some distros because it didn't work right and used ALSA directly, or jack |
| 04:57.12 | drawkula | hrr hr hrrrrr |
| 04:57.13 | furrywolf | I first used debian in the '90s on a 486-33 with a whopping 4mb of ram. |
| 04:57.45 | drawkula | 386dx25 |
| 04:57.47 | drawkula | :-P |
| 04:57.54 | furrywolf | just wait until systemd handles package management too. :P |
| 04:58.25 | agris | furrywolf, snapd daemon? |
| 04:58.47 | agris | or applications are no longer applications, but docker images |
| 04:58.52 | golinux | That's where it's probably going and flatpaks |
| 04:58.57 | drawkula | I can live with android's existence as long as I am not forced to use it... and that's my point of view for systemd too. |
| 04:59.02 | furrywolf | bbl, sleep |
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| 04:59.12 | agris | i mean, i can see the point in AppImage for finicky programs like FreeCAD |
| 04:59.28 | agris | but why does a package management tool need a daemon? |
| 04:59.45 | gnarface | so it can fucking watch your every move obviously |
| 05:00.34 | gnarface | these people don't design software for consumers smart enough to notice such things happening |
| 05:00.48 | drawkula | data is the new $ |
| 05:00.51 | gnarface | that's why their strategy for us is simply to just chase us away |
| 05:01.20 | gnarface | they can't have us warning their livestock that there's no party in the barn. |
| 05:01.59 | golinux | This debate should probably move to #debianfork. It's not really support stuff |
| 05:02.08 | gnarface | true, sorry |
| 05:02.11 | golinux | gnarface: Love that last comment |
| 05:02.41 | furrywolf | it's not a debate... we're all in agreement. :) |
| 05:02.42 | furrywolf | bbl |
| 05:02.56 | agris | is that what it is gnarface? an attempt to sneak in data ex-filtration or mining and hope no one notices? |
| 05:03.31 | drawkula | wants #devuan-offtopic instead of #debianfork |
| 05:04.03 | agris | i don't believe that can be the main purpose |
| 05:04.28 | golinux | agris: Please move to #debianfork |
| 05:04.35 | drawkula | i dont care what it is meant to be... it has side effects i dont want on my systems |
| 05:04.52 | agris | how about #devuan-chat |
| 05:04.57 | golinux | drawkula: Please follow your own advice |
| 05:05.22 | golinux | #debianfork is the place for this topic |
| 05:07.19 | agris | k |
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| 05:27.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2018/04/09/plasma-desktopY22448.png |
| 05:27.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
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| 05:44.23 | agris | does anyone here use Devuan in production? |
| 05:45.20 | gnarface | probably a few |
| 05:46.13 | agris | is there work on Devuan Stretch? |
| 05:46.21 | gnarface | it's called ascii |
| 05:46.26 | gnarface | but yes |
| 05:46.40 | agris | why ascii? |
| 05:47.25 | gnarface | they picked a list of planet names that overlapped with Debian's list of toy story character names at "jessie" |
| 05:47.57 | gnarface | so for devuan it goes jessie, ascii, beowulf, ceres |
| 05:48.27 | gnarface | (https://devuan.org/os/releases) |
| 05:48.32 | agris | oh, i thought is was referring to American Standard character information interchange |
| 05:48.48 | gnarface | no, but the planet of that name was most likely named after ASCII |
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| 06:35.19 | golinux | agris: https://devuan.org/os/releases |
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| 08:55.34 | agris | why anacron over cronie in jessie? |
| 08:57.31 | agris | and why is motd a daemon? |
| 08:59.54 | KatolaZ | agris: ? |
| 09:02.50 | agris | I'm testing the base install |
| 09:04.28 | drawkula | apt-cache show chrony |
| 09:04.37 | drawkula | apt-cache search motd |
| 09:05.09 | drawkula | not everything with a trailing d is a daemon |
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| 09:05.58 | agris | http://imgur.com/rZ7avLRl.png |
| 09:06.46 | agris | http://imgur.com/KzLgq2Gl.png |
| 09:07.19 | drawkula | $ less /etc/init.d/motd |
| 09:07.40 | drawkula | it is more an action than a daemon... |
| 09:08.34 | agris | is it possible to get the rc-config command? |
| 09:09.47 | agris | or is that a Gentoo specific thing not OpenRC |
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| 09:11.08 | drawkula | I haven't gentoo'ed since end of 2002 |
| 09:11.21 | drawkula | v1.08? |
| 09:12.13 | agris | are you familiar with OpenRC? |
| 09:12.31 | agris | I think theres a command missing in Devuan's OpenRC |
| 09:12.38 | agris | rc-config |
| 09:12.38 | drawkula | no |
| 09:12.51 | drawkula | not familiar |
| 09:13.08 | agris | there's rc-update, which i can use as a workaround but it's not nearly as streamlined as rc-config |
| 09:24.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm man motd |
| 09:25.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | lol @ 1992-12-29 |
| 09:29.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | more intersting: man pam_motd |
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| 09:33.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | the >>OPTIONS noupdate Don't run the scripts in /etc/update-motd.d to refresh the motd file.<< part seems to be an obscure debianism |
| 09:34.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | never before heard of it, nor seen that dir |
| 09:37.42 | drawkula | $ ls /etc/update-motd.d/ |
| 09:37.44 | drawkula | 10-uname |
| 09:37.49 | drawkula | stretch |
| 09:40.59 | drawkula | ascii has it too... I remember to have sen that before but never used it |
| 09:41.06 | drawkula | sen->seen |
| 09:41.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have no devuan at hand but on all my debian boxes there's no such dir |
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| 09:41.48 | drawkula | no stretch? |
| 09:42.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | ge:~$ ls /etc/update-motd.d/ |
| 09:42.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | ls: cannot access /etc/update-motd.d/: No such file or directory |
| 09:42.20 | drawkula | hmmm... |
| 09:42.29 | drawkula | my stretchy notebook has it |
| 09:42.38 | drawkula | and my ascii-PIs too |
| 09:42.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | this is a server and prolly not very much bleeding edge |
| 09:42.57 | drawkula | rasPIan9 has it too |
| 09:43.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | funny enough the manpage has it though |
| 09:43.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | but no further info on what it does and how |
| 09:44.07 | drawkula | prob'ly just cat-ing the scripts' output |
| 09:44.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: |
| 09:44.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | you got a file there ;-) |
| 09:45.11 | drawkula | 10-uname == uname -snrvm |
| 09:45.24 | KatolaZ | that file comes from base-files |
| 09:45.26 | drawkula | with shebang |
| 09:45.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | the fir name (update-motd.d/) insinuates stranger stuff than just echo `update-motd.d/*` |
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| 09:45.47 | KatolaZ | and is a workaround to not show "Debian" in the motd |
| 09:46.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooooh |
| 09:46.14 | drawkula | nono... run the scripts and cat their results |
| 09:46.51 | KatolaZ | drawkula: ? |
| 09:47.21 | drawkula | ??? |
| 09:47.43 | KatolaZ | ???? |
| 09:47.44 | KatolaZ | :D |
| 09:48.04 | drawkula | uname -rnsom <<< on my ascii-cubie3 |
| 09:48.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | c',om, who introduced it, when, and what's the meaning of the dirname? |
| 09:48.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | c'mon even |
| 09:49.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: what you said sounds almost like it's a devuanism |
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| 09:49.21 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: what's your problem? |
| 09:49.33 | drawkula | i have it in debian and devuan |
| 09:49.41 | drawkula | and even in rasPIan |
| 09:49.43 | KatolaZ | it comes from debian |
| 09:49.49 | KatolaZ | and had the wrong uname command |
| 09:49.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | I want to learn what are the arcane details of that thing |
| 09:49.55 | KatolaZ | which shows "Debian" in the motd |
| 09:50.01 | KatolaZ | because it gets the build name |
| 09:50.18 | KatolaZ | (well, it *did* that( |
| 09:50.19 | drawkula | does both linuxes: openwrt and de??an |
| 09:50.21 | drawkula | :-P |
| 09:51.01 | drawkula | ok... is more funny in a cage wearing sunglasses |
| 09:51.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | KatolaZ: aah so the OPTION always been there, though only on debian, but only devuan created the dir to avoid the "Debian" in "motd"? |
| 09:51.12 | KatolaZ | no DocScrutinizer05 |
| 09:51.17 | KatolaZ | the dir existed in Debian as well |
| 09:51.19 | KatolaZ | please read |
| 09:51.26 | KatolaZ | it had the wrong uname command |
| 09:51.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn't exist on my debian though |
| 09:51.38 | KatolaZ | shrugs |
| 09:51.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not installed ;-P |
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| 09:52.40 | drawkula | so you haven't installed base-files? |
| 09:52.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, it seems to me like an alternative to plain motd |
| 09:53.02 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: it's a way to show the currently running kernel in motd |
| 09:53.39 | KatolaZ | it would be silly to change motd every time you boot just to do that, IMHO :) |
| 09:53.40 | KatolaZ | bbl |
| 09:53.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | the 10-uname yes, maybe. The dir however seems pretty unrelated to "currently running kernel" |
| 09:55.23 | KatolaZ | DocScrutinizer05: the dir says "update-motd"... |
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| 09:55.33 | KatolaZ | shouldn't be hard to figure out what it does :D |
| 09:55.56 | KatolaZ | the rationale is that you can put in there anything you want to appear in motd |
| 09:56.27 | drawkula | apt-get moo # ! ;-) |
| 09:56.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, I have literally only >>OPTIONS noupdate Don't run the scripts in /etc/update-motd.d to refresh the motd file.<< as info what it does |
| 09:58.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | no such dir, no "see: 5 update-motd.d" - zilch |
| 09:58.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | and on RPM system, not even that |
| 09:59.14 | drawkula | it even gets worse: /etc/init.d/motd |
| 09:59.43 | drawkula | that looks like not using that dir |
| 10:00.06 | drawkula | and putting ... uname -snrvm > /var/run/motd.dynamic |
| 10:05.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's pam_motd, not motd. And provided by libpam-modules, not by basefiles |
| 10:06.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | however I'd be surprised if libpam-modules wasn't installed as well on my server |
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| 10:17.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wklej.org/id/3403934 |
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| 10:40.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | drawkula: even better: http://wklej.org/id/3403969 |
| 10:40.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | while I have the same init.d/motd stuff like you |
| 10:41.04 | drawkula | i have that in pams config too |
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| 12:58.49 | FatPhil_ | Oh bugger, I've just noticed that a package update has removed a feature I consider vital - how can I get back the old version of the package? |
| 12:59.47 | fsmithred | FatPhil_, install old version from the deb package in /var/cache/apt/archives |
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| 13:01.43 | FatPhil_ | fsmithred: dang - that might even work - I filled my HD recently and had to clean the cache, but not so recently that that straggler isn't still there! |
| 13:04.48 | FatPhil_ | woh, that was way too simple! looks like it just "did the right thing". Package now being held back in aptitude... |
| 13:05.05 | fsmithred | how did you install the package? |
| 13:05.36 | fsmithred | dpkg -i ? |
| 13:07.40 | KatolaZ | FatPhil_: which package? |
| 13:11.12 | FatPhil_ | palemoon - they removed the "ask me every time" cookie feature. |
| 13:11.51 | FatPhil_ | fsmithred: yeah I just guessed dpkg -i, and it just did the right thing. |
| 13:12.31 | FatPhil_ | I was wondering if there would be a "I can't do that, you have a more modern version already installed, for force a downgrade do blah-blah-blah" message. |
| 13:13.18 | FatPhil_ | the only reason I use palemoon is because I ditched firefox when they removed the same feature. |
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| 13:20.04 | fsmithred | dpkg --force-downgrade -i <package> |
| 13:20.23 | fsmithred | apt-get install <package>=<older-version> |
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| 15:32.45 | flrn | Hello and a good afternoon! |
| 15:34.32 | flrn | I just discovered, that the Claws Mail's PGP plug in on my new Ascii install caches the password for some time, although I don't use the gpg agent and have the caching option unchecked. |
| 15:35.23 | flrn | I'd be thankful for any hints on how to troubleshoot this. |
| 15:35.51 | KatolaZ | flrn: this must be known upstream I guess |
| 15:36.03 | KatolaZ | we haven't forked any of those packages, IIRC |
| 15:36.45 | flrn | KatolaZ: thanks, I'll have a look. |
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| 18:18.55 | *** topic/#devuan is Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 19:24.10 | aitor | thanks to golinux, i've learned a new english word: gibberish |
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